The WB Games Situation Is Even Worse Than We Thought

WB Games have earned scathing headlines. We looked into the source, and the situation is, in fact, worse!
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Sources:
event.webcasts.com/starthere....
x.com/multiversus/status/1765...
x.com/owendeery/status/176503...
www.gamedeveloper.com/busines...

[@BellularNews]

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[@nebulousblack5764]

Coffee is expensives af right now

[@Cyberweasel89]

Bellular, when you start speaking positively about Blood LIbel and Broomsticks, that's when I question your ethics.

[@user-tp5yb4hr4w]

sounds like they are trying to use reverse psychology to me. i still say fuckem.

[@georgimihalkov9678]

Suicide Squad - fails Hogwarts Legacy - succeeds WB: "Let's replicate Suicide Squad again!"

[@TheRealXartaX]

They don't look at Hogwarts and see a success, they see a missed opportunity because they didn't monetize it with microtransactions.

[@georgimihalkov9678]

@@TheRealXartaXabsolutely!

[@aaronogden9900]

Exactly. Sometimes business decisions must be difficult but surely this is an easy lesson to learn.

[@lorecow88]

Hogwarts Legacy isn't reliant on a constant internet connection, thus it doesn't undermine ownership.

[@AdV3nt5187]

The logical conclusion from this is that WB have decided to fail and go bankrupt and dissappear, hey its fine with me. Go stupid go broke...

[@AceofSpades511]

I don't get it. It's not profitable to go war with the consumer like this.

[@lorecow88]

It actually is, the money just doesn't come from the customers.

[@XSquidbeatsX]

Don’t stop your enemy when they are making a mistake

[@aster4jaden]

@@lorecow88 Funny enough, it is and isn't. Warner Bros's wants that ESG Money, but we've seen with certain "News" Sites closing ESG isn't enough in the long term.

[@fish5645]

These are companies that cash in on the IPs to sell random crap. Think of Disneyland (perhaps a poor choice these days but here goes) it is an overpriced hellscape for most normal families especially parents but that isn't what it is for, it is to get kids to pester their parents to buy that cool lightsaber from the Star Wars section, it is to buy lunch which is basically airplane food priced at gourmet restaurant levels. It is for mega fans to go there with friends and spend half their savings on plushies and tat that will fill their houses until they grow out of it. Now think about that but with gaming, Hogwarts is the Disneyland and the MTX is the overpriced crap only they don't even need to buy stock anymore as it is all digital. It is the perfect money making situation and WB wants that more than anything else because they are scumbags.

[@biocular]

@@lorecow88 How secure of a grip on government must they have to consider tax-dollars from institutions a better source of income than pacified consumers. THAT is terrifying.

[@masterofbloopers]

You know what the best part is? When these live service games inevitably fail, the employees at the bottom of the ladder will be the ones punished with mass layoffs, all while the executives, the ones that caused the games to fail in the first place, will keep their jobs. And the cycle repeats.

[@jishani1]

Then don't work on live service bullshit. Yeah there are only so many triple a game studio positions out there. But you can make an indie game alone or with a team of fewer than 5 people and you'll face less abuse than working for an EA or Blizzard as well. They have a choice, they choose to make bullshit for an easy pay check.

[@Strokahof]

@@jishani1 Hey there bud hold up. The differences between working for an established game studio with a steady paycheck and going indie are astronomical. The vast majority of indie games fail, just flat out or they barely cover development cost. Game developers are just people too, who need to pay rent and want to follow their passions in employment and who often don't have the luxury to choose between going indie or going to work for a larger studio. Going indie basically means having no steady income for at least 2 to 3 years and that's just not something a lot of people can afford or want. Yes there is kickstarter or patreon or whatever but before you can even get something resembling an income stream (you know, to buy groceries and pay rent for you and your 5 other people) you have to put out a demo, or a trailer or what have you which already takes a lot of time and effort, and then you have to be 100% certain you can fulfill whatever the scope you present is at risk of being dragged through the mud on the internet for a full media cycle because you 'scammed' everyone by being too underfunded to fully polish the vision of your indie title. TLDR: Game devs in AAA studios are just like any other person working for a Megacorp, and they face just the same challenges as anyone else who want to start their own business if they want to go Indie. 'Making bullshit for an easy pay check' is what a significant portion of our economy is unfortunately based on

[@scwirpeo]

@@Strokahof They make enough money to only have to grind that crap a few years till they move on to indi/niche with a very good safety net, the Era of game devs all making 13$/h has been gone for 16+ years. You give devs too much credit. Most of them don't play games or even care about the work they do they are exclusively there to get paid and it shows. Broadly speaking, the ones who do care are already in places where they can do what they want.

[@StackingGains]

If they reward failure and cannot track the metrics of success they will fail. Many businesses underperform for this reason. And it's why actually good leadership is so important.

[@Lewtable]

@@scwirpeo "the ones who do care are already in places where they can do what they want." Nah. You're way overestimating the capabilities of indie. In order to reach the level of success you are claiming you need to spend many years working on something, like Hollow Knight or A Hat in Time and produce a legitimately polished or groundbreaking product or you need get lucky and find a new trend / capitalize on trends early, similarly to what some KZbin channels do by trying to track what the algorithm promotes with Lethal Company and Palworld probably being the most recent and highly successful examples of the latter, though Palworld is arguably not indie. In the past year there's been maybe been around 10 indie games that reached decent traction with good forward prospects and success out of potentially thousands of indie projects and honestly I'd say that's a pretty good number for any given year. I don't think you're speaking broadly, I think you're speaking very narrowly. While some of the remaining potential thousands may have managed to survive in a niché market, it isn't human psyche to enjoy stagnation. People are always looking to grow, improve and reach greater success and rather than buying a lottery ticket with your work and hope you managed to find success in a highly competitive market, stable employment ideally provides a lower risk and lower reward option with some guarantee of forward momentum. Trying to act like every passionate person in a sector of work is willing to risk everything for some creative freedom is just dumb at best and demeaning at worst.

[@R3GARnator]

Let's all laugh at a games industry that never learns anything, tee hee hee!

[@magetsalive5162]

"The last fifteen times we chased a fad didn't work and we lost a lot of money as a result. BUT THE NEXT FAD WE CHASE WILL MAKE US RICH! We just haven't chased the fad quickly enough and with enough effort!" - Basically the entire industry

[@TheRealRuddRants]

*HA HAs in the Replies is flooding*

[@Left4Coragem]

Sounds like Disney that thought the Solo movie failed because they recasted HanSolo. That isn't it, mate!

[@michaellane5381]

Imagine thinking: "We don't want to work for our money" While also thinking: "People will love to pay to work in our IP gaming worlds"...

[@marcdwonn9772]

Like Geralt always says: "They never learn." Slash.

[@R3GARnator]

"Warner Brothers didn't think of Suicide Squad as a Live Service game". That's a bomb.

[@Deliveredmean42]

They know their product was such a failure that they are trying to distance themselves to save face, and nobody is buying it.

[@CyanOcelot]

It died the moment it came out, no longer live service needed

[@michaellane5381]

Nope, instead they are thinking "META" is the Live Service Ideal... Imagine looking to the one thing that literally swapped the richest men in the world and cutting actually got back to position 1 after costing the company trillions and saying, "yeah, that looks profitable..."

[@marcogenovesi8570]

that game was a bomb allright.

[@mightylink65]

WB drowning in Hogwarts legacy sales... still says: "Single player games are dying!"

[@TheRealRuddRants]

Ironic.

[@WaddyMuters]

I mean the sad thing is. They are probably right. Hogwarts had its high sales period. That period is a few months at best, now it’s just getting sales here and there. Suicide Squad sells shit consistently. And will probably in the long run be more profitable then Hogwarts. The live service game model works better in terms of monetization.

[@_holy__ghost]

​​@@WaddyMutersyou are absolutely delusional if you think suicide squad will ever sell anywhere even CLOSE to HL. the game was dead on arrival, have you not seen the player numbers? id be surprised if the servers are still up in a year

[@WaddyMuters]

@@_holy__ghosttrue. I have not looked at how suicide squad was actually doing. But still, the sentiment is true, even a moderatly succesfull life service will out performe the most successfull traditional single player game in terms of monetization. That's the point. That's why big buisness has to go that route. Highly successfull trad single player is hard to achieve, extremely risky at the modern AAA level and doesn't bring in that much money. There's a reason the industry pursue this so doggedly.

[@Jokerwolf666]

​@@WaddyMutersthe thing is though it's almost as if they don't understand how steam works, even the smallest update pushes their game to the front page. On top of all that they're trying to get the same price as the launch price by default, these big companies need to understand that after the launch window they can't justify selling a game for 89.99 CAD. It just won't happen, and I'll be honest I'm going to Pirate a game before I'm spending $102 on it after taxes. If these companies reduced the price of their games new by half after 6 months I guarantee they would have new sale waves.

[@frostbite0707]

It's always so baffling how far removed the investor class is from reality.

[@Lnclt-tc3ln]

It's the "let them eat cake" royalty all over again.

[@raynortownly7098]

@@Lnclt-tc3ln Feels, like they're aliens, imo. Or at least, id imagine, thats how incomprehensible alien speech would be.

[@InternetHydra]

“”””investor class””””.

[@AlwayzFresh]

The downfall, eventual closing and firing of all staff from the WB gaming division is going to be wild.

[@TheMeatballMan420]

It can't happen soon enough.

[@markguyton2868]

And the people who caused it are still gonna have their jobs :\

[@apexanimo]

Nope, they will also lose their jobs. They will get a promotion. ​@@markguyton2868

[@FriezaReturns00001]

Yeah at this point, I suspect more people will just leave to form indie studios or quit gaming industry making entirely. And consider that most studio hear the notion of live service or gaas and 1. no plans 2. no content put well in advance... it is NOT going to over well.

[@rd-um4sp]

"We don't want your $70. We want all your money."

[@brettwood1351]

"And we want things not to be shit. So tough luck."

[@marcdwonn9772]

I'll give you all my money - if you make all the games **i** want. :)

[@KC-zw4mm]

In one mobile game I played, people were considering $50 per week on a skin as them being free-to-play players. Just compare creating an entire AAA game to a skin for ONE character. It's no brainer.

[@GeebusCrust]

"Okay, so you just attach the vacuum hose to the big money pocket on top, and we'll take it from there" Nice try WB.

[@LM-nb7rj]

David Zaslav saw Bobby Kotick leaving the games industry and was like, "I wanna be just like him!"

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

Funny thing is at least Bobby could be hated by gamers only; Zaslav gets to be despised by people that care about movies, tv shows AND video games. Truly an honor for them, I’m sure.

[@somethingsburning774]

Jim Ryan got the best of it, he rode it all the way down then sold most of his stocks on the way out

[@Kant3n]

@@somethingsburning774 So sad for Jim, who could have ever predicted the Playstation Portal wouldn't sell well?

[@somethingsburning774]

@@Kant3n Ya or the PVR

[@rodrigobogado8756]

Nah, Bobby at least made money

[@Saeryfim]

I suppose it IS fitting that WB has chosen "Suicide Squad" as the hill they'll die on, I guess...

[@nakai86p]

The amount of incompetence in high level corporate positions is really astonishing. How do these people get their jobs? It really looks like that relationships are more important than actual skills.

[@crashed6510]

Social skills are much more important than actual skills in upper management.

[@aahzmandiaz2767]

They hire companies like "Sweet Baby Inc". That is all you need to know about their intelligence and awareness,.

[@RookMeAmadeus]

It doesn't LOOK LIKE that. It IS that.

[@lorecow88]

They're not necessarily incompetent, they just want things that we don't. Assume malice instead of incompetence.

[@markguyton2868]

As the old saying goes, "it's who ya know, not what ya know"

[@wardy4903]

Great observation there. The type of people running these companies are the type of people who see Ready Player One as a utopia and not a dystopia.

[@spikem5950]

There's been a lot of that going around for various dystopian novels lately.

[@clippedwings0]

"VR! AR! Live Service! AI!" "Did I get all the buzzwords?" The biggest problem with AAA games is that business executives fundamentally do not understand what any kind of gamer actually wants to play. They have no idea why certain games successfully generate revenue, so they misidentify trends in a continual game of 'follow the money'.

[@Runeinc]

"We want line go up forever!" - Gaming CEOs Be happy if the line is stable.

[@markguyton2868]

The joy that is the infinite wealth fallacy...

[@Yarsig]

@@markguyton2868 It's more so infinite growth. In theory, growth/progress will keep going forever. Except that pesky little thing called, "humanity," and it propensity towards greed and choosing the option that is worse for them, and contorting progress into regression. The great thing about a free market, (which we don't actually have in most cases) is that if someone fails at creating a product that people want, then someone else can swoop in and do it instead. (Ha, if only) In this case, we can hope that the fervent desire of chasing shareholder agendas (and thus, money) will cause an industry collapse where a new wave of innovation and competition can begin again -- circa 1983 style. Least we have a colossal library of indie games if you have a PC, and more game hours from old games than you could ever play in your lifetime.

[@spikem5950]

@@markguyton2868 Let's ask the 1920s how that worked for them in the long run.

[@AeroZephron]

Every developer trying to be Blizzard and make their own WoW are ignoring the fundamental problem - even people who play WoW, don't have enough time to play it. It's a saturated market and another MMO isn't the answer.

[@brettwood1351]

I feel like they can't grasp anymore that the vast majority of people can't just buy whatever they want. They don't have that kind of disposable cash. You cannot grow infinitly. And if you want poeple to be able to do have the time and money you need to give raise pay, and lessen work hours, and of course that isn't going to fly with them.

[@Ghorda9]

mmos are also not viable fundamentally, they cost too much to run.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

​@@Ghorda9 They aren't easily should be the way you phrase it. The MMO market is arguably the healthiest it has ever been. There aren't 20 new ones sh't out a year and die in a month. Instead you have a dozen or so strong playerbase games that have been kept alive with a base that generally enjoys the updates.

[@Ghorda9]

@@haruhirogrimgar6047 just because there's only a small handful of successful ones doesn't automatically make mmos as a whole viable, just like you said all the others have died off. I would also bet that most of the successful ones have a dedicated aging playerbase that isn't growing and would eventually disappear as life gets in the way.

[@bagalas87]

​@@Ghorda9 Ah thats probably why blizzard made billions each year back in 2005-2008.

[@cheekibreeki9155]

Here's a thing though, getting a best seller live service game in games development is the games equivalent of hitting the powerball jackpot twice. MOST companies who get one ONLY get one right in its entire lifetime with the exception of MMO studios which has leeway to get at most two right. The leadership is essentially saying "No we don't want to do a 9-5, we want to hit the jackpot and retire comfortable on our laurels" all while they just sold their house and is now living out of their car. It makes zero sense.

[@jamescarpenter855]

Yep guild Wars 2 gas been around for almost 15 years now and they just keep making new content for that game and charge 15 an expansion

[@spikem5950]

@@jamescarpenter855 And Fromsoft lost a lot of potential business with Guild Wars 2 when they shut down City of Heroes, another successful MMO.

[@jamescarpenter855]

@@spikem5950 did you mean NCsoft as fromsoft is the Japanese company that has been a single player/co-op game company

[@vinnythewebsurfer]

It really is some smooth brained logic-ing to justify making more live service games by pointing at the failure of suicide squad: the game they mandated into being a live service despite rocksteady being more familiar making single player games AND want to pretend it’s not live service. These people don’t live in reality. Zazlav really is

[@FriezaReturns00001]

IKR -- just absurd and baffelling and so out of touch, in-fact I'd argue to say that they don't live in a reality that's our own and are continuous smoking something and well judging from the 14 years of live service failures -- this is it.

[@Left4Coragem]

Warner Brothers: should we follow the example of this massive success? NO! We must follow the most dangerous business strategy, even if it blows in our faces again and again and again...

[@spikem5950]

Fact: 90% of gambling addicts quit right before they're about to make it big.

[@PyroGobbo]

They all forget one point: nobody want to actually work on a live service.

[@trelard]

I haven't played a multiplayer game in a very long time. Single player FTW!!!

[@marcdwonn9772]

Same here. The last MP game i played actively was Quake 3 Arena. After Epic killed UT4, i stopped caring about MP. Single Player games, in stereo3D/VR - that's my passion since 2019. Currently re-playing HL1 natively on Quest 3 and blown away how this game still holds up - the gameplay is better than 90% of modern day games, especially in VR.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Went from Smite to LoL to HotS to DBD and been out of that sh'tpool since pre-covid.

[@Lordradost]

*_How to be an overpaid exec:_* - Know MS Office - Internalise what buzzwords and language stockholders want to hear - Keep up appearances consistently - Be utterly detached from the industry you work in

[@canosisplays5152]

This will not be successful to them. WB leadership is too late and are chasing old trends. How the board of WBD can’t see this baffles me.

[@Otek_Nr.3]

I find it baffling how many people still buy this stuff. And how many even pre-order AAA games. Marketing is just crazy.

[@Coach_Clutch]

cuz the board is the ppl who brought you married at first sight and my 300 pound life. wtf would discovery know about movies, sports, video games? Vanilla CEOs kill entertainment companies

[@inforelatedtv]

@@Otek_Nr.3unfortunately in the next generation preordering may get even worse unless subscription based gaming fully takes over. We’ll have to wait and see. At least we still have some good releases, I’ll pray for those steadfast and iron willed studios that are standing.

[@Optimusj1975]

Those who could see either became too old to keep working or left because they could not stand the sheer stupidity.

[@simsom4343]

Why does it always feel like investors and shareholders have the brain capacity of toddlers? "I want line up! No down, just up!" I mean seriously, why is it just never enough to make a lot of money? Why does it have to always _be more?_

[@cheekibreeki9155]

The same brain rot that brought us the modern economy, the school of perpetual growth. I'm personally okay with perpetual profit, but these people want growth which means they have an inflation fetish.

[@MorbidEel]

Supposedly because of inflation which means if not more then you are potentially falling behind/shrinking.

[@lorecow88]

Because it's not about money. If it was, they would've course corrected long ago.

[@lycanwarrior2137]

@@MorbidEel EXACTLY. Why would people think that low single-digit profit margins are acceptable??? The only was reason that was acceptable in the past was due to abnormally low interest rates over the past few decades. I could put that money into a "safe" money market fund or bank CD making 5+% interest for much less risk.

[@NotAGoodUsername360]

​@@MorbidEelBut inflation is specifically caused BY that same growth... the more money there is, the less that money is worth.

[@Juuken0m6]

This reminds me of the time when game companies were like “WE’RE MAKING A NFT GAME” during the downfall of NFTs

[@KC-zw4mm]

What's wild they didn't lose any money in doing so. When they invest in 20 projects, they want only 3-4 of them to go 10-20x, they rest are ok to flop. That's the issue. They're too rich to go broke.

[@spikem5950]

@@KC-zw4mm And yet nobody wants to do anything about that because mUh sOcIaLiSm.

[@A-Duck]

What sins did I commit in my past life to wind up in this cursed timeline?

[@NotAGoodUsername360]

You believed WW2 was a black-and-white conflict.

[@atomicgandhi8718]

Good games will still be made by other authors, but you get to laugh at warner bros while they lose MASSIVE amounts of money developing multiple competing AAA live service shlop games that will arrive late, low quality, and to an oversaturated market. I mean think of the joy you got from watching Helldivers 2 succeed, and Sewerslide squad crash and burn. It was hilarious.

[@A-Duck]

@@atomicgandhi8718 Good point, but counterpoint - it is an absolute travesty to witness that amount of creative and financial resources get pissed away on bilge water products for the sake of greed so virulent it's damaged their brains. Yes it's funny watching them eat their own assholes and fail miserably as a result, but equally, the waste it represents is mind boggling. It's also just kind of... endemic to leadership attitudes across multiple industries, and that very quickly stops being funny and starts being concerning/depressing to watch unfold.

[@atomicgandhi8718]

@@A-Duck That is true. That money could have fed the poor, or set up a stable industry so that working people could have good jobs creating good, artistic products instead of scams. Honestly man you gotta laugh, or you'll cry, it is what it is.

[@A-Duck]

@@atomicgandhi8718 Also good point. Laugh it is.

[@astrealove2247]

It's fine to have games be live service, that's not the issue. The issue is when you make a bad game and then slap on live service. If you're going to have live service, at least make a game that people want to play. People want to play Helldiver 2 because it's a good game, people want to play Palworld because it's a good game, people want to play Last Epoch because it's a good game.

[@gozutheDJ]

Palworld is awful

[@helarki4309]

@@gozutheDJ Found the Nintendo sellout.

[@flunkyballs4610]

I don't want Helldivers or Life Service games. I want single player batman or superman games. If WB doesn't want to make games they should give the license to someone else.

[@VerGiLL1]

​@@flunkyballs4610 That's fine. If you enjoy more a SP experience, you do you. The problem itself is not the live service model neither is the consumer, is the publishers trying to force it where it dosen't belong.

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

​@@helarki4309 Eh, there are fair criticisms of Palworld. It is another open-world survival crafting 3rd person shooter coming out along a wave of monster catcher games. Like, I am never gonna touch it with a 10 foot pole for how f"cking boring it seems. But anyone who defends Gamefreak is definitely a brainless shill with no standards.

[@bounceycake1]

So many companies are taking the concept of let's say FF14 or WoW and hollowing it out, making it a husk of it's former self, just slapping a random IP on the box and filling it with microtransactions. He's right. You may say "$70 is too expensive for 1 new AAA game" That's just the start, they want you to spend thousands a year ontop that $70 base price. They seriously can't expect to accomplish that unless they make Suicide Squad: A Realm Reborn

[@gaialudovicaangeloni2179]

As much as i love a realm Reborn and all things that came after and before, i get increasingly frustrated at similar stories. Once Is a mistake, two can be too, thrice is a malicious habit and it ceases to be a merit.

[@hippopotatomoose]

I think you forgot the important ingredient when it came to ARR: Yoshi P. He's a gamer. He knows. He freaking plays his own games and plays other titles. These CEO'S and board members are completely out of touch with their audiences.

[@ShooterPat]

The funny thing is Actiblizz pretty much hollowed out WoW since WoD imo. It started just after Wrath with it's decline. They saw the money and wanted more, simple as that.

[@planescaped]

"It's kind of like the modern version of land and you know, maybe we pay some rent" Sounds more like serfdom to me... Damn good analogy though.

[@spikem5950]

Serfdom never ended. It just took a different name.

[@smashboybrawl]

to make this situation even worse WB just announced that all the adult swim games (Rick and Morty VR, Samurai jack battle through time and others) will be delisted for "changes in the chain of command", at this point I wouldn't surprise if in 5-10 years WB Discovery will be bought by someone else for dirt cheap

[@Exlayer-pk8hy]

Glad I bought Samurai Jack physically lmao. This game is gonna be worth something someday

[@michaellane5381]

​@@Exlayer-pk8hyI would be interested but not expect much from WB games... Sad to hear about RT though.

[@SpottedHares]

More likely your gonna see them sell of parts of them selves peace by peace.

[@Kant3n]

The WB everything situation is worse than anyone thought. The Discovery merger has been an absolute dumpster fire of corner cutting and binning nearly-completed projects for tax breaks.

[@CheapoPremio]

Mortal Kombat, DC, Game of Thrones and Harry Potter. JEEEESUS F CHRIST. Only 1 real game IP and 3 other media off shoots one of which is dead in the water.

[@PyrrhicPax]

We are watching Planned Obsolescence in action with the AAA Gaming industry

[@loukitmyname]

A game made for everyone is a game made for no one.

[@dwavenminer]

I think the best way of explaining this to these investors is to remind them that a restaurant that serves anything will do everything poorly and soon they'll go bust. But a restaurant that only serves steak can concentrate on making their the steaks the best around, become known for their great steaks, and thus become a huge success.

[@spikem5950]

@@dwavenminer Until even McDonald's starts selling $5 steaks and all the dedicated steak houses go out of business because most people would prefer cheap garbage to something they can barely (if even) afford. This is exactly why Buffalo Wild Wings has been declining for a long time now. It's also why artists have a hard time getting business and people leapt onto AI image generators.

[@oguzcanoguz5977]

Just like moths to a flame, they all chase the impossible live service game where you can predict to have success and a constant stream of revenue forever. They could have just stayed close to the flame, kept producing good single player games and they would have enjoyed a good business. Now we have to lose some good single player games, because some executive that has no idea wants to chase the live service money and has to be disillusioned by his eventual failure. Hell the fact that they cannot see that their suicide squad failed, exactly because they wanted to chase "trends" as opposed to allowing their studios stick to what they do best, already tells me that the situation is hopeless. They want to take the lessons they want to take as opposed to the lesson they were actually given. Well, another one for the AAA crash bubble I guess.

[@Ban-sidhe]

Reminds me of the Goofy "I'll f*cking do it again" meme.

[@Sub-Mythos]

Live-service is like getting racing tires for a vehicle. It'll work for specific circumstances, but usually it'll actually hinder performance, though typically it won't be the sole cause of catastrophe. But they're expensive for the consumer so it makes more money to sell. Doubling down that all your cars and trucks have to have racing tires is insane.

[@knooihuizen1]

Suicide Squad: Kill the Justice League is 40% off on steam right now and still not worth the price.

[@tessabakker662]

The price of admission isn't where they make most of their money, it's the -in-app- whoops, in-'game' purchases and season passes, so they can afford to cut the cost of entry in a bid to onboard more players, a small percentage of whom will buy some or all of the additional -garbage- content.

[@BAMFshee]

@@tessabakker662 Which honestly makes it even more stupid that they're charging for it at all. If you're planning to make your money off of microtransactions, why not just release it as a F2P game and maximize the number of players you can get into your ecosystem?

[@SilverDashie]

Basically let the big companies fail and waste money. If they fizzle out other developers will rise from the ashes.

[@atomicgandhi8718]

Unironically great news, the overlords soaking up the money with evil MTX targeted at children will get rekt, opening up new money for indie devs.

[@SirMouse003]

I understand that it was an investor meeting and they want to talk the talk that goes with those forums, but fuck me the phrasing and general view of "we dont give a fuck about games as a medium, we just want to make consistent money on these fools with as little risk as possible" - its insanely distasteful and borderline disgusting .. to me anyways. Edit: Excellent reporting btw, really think you're spot on here.

[@RookMeAmadeus]

The fact they're unironically claiming games like Suicide Squad are the way of the future says that the company's investors should be voting to remove every single exec from their positions. Either they're WRONG, and therefore leading the company in a bad direction that will lose the investors money...Or they're RIGHT, and still managed to be so incompetent that they screwed up a perfectly good idea, and lost the investors money.

[@lorecow88]

They're doing what the (biggest) investors want, the point isn't to make money. It's to normalise internet connection requirements for single player games.

[@Sniperbear13]

its like they are looking to try and make a new term for their live service games. "oh its not a live service game, its a Actively Developed game where as long as people pay we add stuff".

[@scottsmith9137]

does it have surprise mechanics

[@Forjugadname]

Its a good strategy I guess if you want to collapse your business, replace a risky strategy with an even more expensive and risky one.

[@TheLaioElektrizzel]

There is also a problem with live services taking over so many companies: They take up a lot of time. If they want to keep on playing these games they must also realize, that that means that we will not have time for any other games. As such the first games to be really great wiil dry up the market. When you only have a few hours a day for gaming and you already spend them keeping up with the dailies and events of the live services you already like you will be unlikely to cut into them in order to play something else. As such you run in to the simple basics of econoics. There is limited demand and a market overflowing with supply. The excess once demand is met will be dead in the water.

[@originalscreenname44]

People have brought up this point for years now (I've probably heard it as far back as 2013), and these companies still don't get it. They want to keep making big expensive games that keep pumping money out of your pocket every time you play and monopolize your free time. They don't have the foresight to realize that there's only 24 hours a day and for most people that's taken up by work and sleep. Not everyone is going to spend what's left of their free time playing the exact same game every day in perpetuity.

[@BlueWoWTaylan]

@@originalscreenname44 They are falling for the Mythical Whale theories. They don't care about how many would play their games as long as the few dedicated ones give them ALL their money. Like how gambling and alcohol feeds on addicts. Mobile market is the biggest example.

[@lycanwarrior2137]

@@BlueWoWTaylan And mobile market makes way more money than either the console or PC segment.

[@spikem5950]

The concept of supply and demand is lost on modern day capitalists. They don't see any of the dwindling resources of the average person as a problem, they think they can squeeze blood from the stone they're turning us into.

[@Tiffany_Waiting]

The "Clutch" generation. Without talent, FSR as a clutch to "fix" performance and DEI/ESG money as a clutch to compensate for the lost consumer base. But even these two aren't helping them break even, but hey, "Everything is fine" is what they keep telling to each to other, as they dance over the hollow husk of what were once respectable developers, so..

[@Kant3n]

Crutch, perhaps? DLSS/FSR really is just becoming the next step of Ubisoft and their "this is PC only, who cares" laziness.

[@Ghorda9]

i don't know what you mean by "clutch", but a "crutch" is something you lean on(dependency).

[@arglebargle5531]

"DEI/ESG Money." This isn't really a thing. Go listen to any shareholder meeting for WB a point me to where they list DEI as any sort of ROI pillar.

[@networknomad5600]

Dear lord, it’s a “crutch”. Jfc

[@captainthunderbolt7541]

The collapse is coming. I never thought we would see the return of AA gaming, but here we are. AAA is a floundering beast, which aims to satisfy almost nobody!

[@Immudzen]

It is so insane they want to make the next HP game a live service. That just means I won't play it.

[@originalscreenname44]

I haven't bought their games since Arkham Knight came out with that shitty PC port they didn't want to fix. I don't regret that decision at all.

[@waketp420]

I'll just add WB to the list of publishers/studios to stop supporting completely.

[@idontconsenttoinfobeingsol3041]

idk, seems to me they are trying to return to Blockbuster. They are trying to change the definition of game owner to game renter. They no longer want to sell you a game, they want to rent it to you.

[@zizzyballuba4373]

it's so over for warner brothers

[@bobbobber4810]

I feel like in a few years, maybe a decade or two, there will be two kind of games. Live service by big corp and "normal" games made by indies As the idea of making "infinite money" from one product seems stronger and stronger... That also mean heavy micro transactions and a lot of pay dlc, season pass etc. No thanks.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

It's weird. I mean, sure looking at Fortnite or Apex i can see how companies get their mouths watering thinking about all the money. But life as a service is... a pretty hard comcept to get right. For every game that works, there're a bunch of Anthems, Avengers, Babylon's Fall, Skull&Bones, Suicide Squads, etc. Hell, even Destiny 2 is struggling these days. While some higher-ups at WB may think it's the path to take, i suspect it's the path that will lead to the downfall of their gaming-division.

[@MorbidEel]

Not sure if Anthem should be in that list since it seems like a large part of the problem was a lack of direction. IIRC most of what was released was done in the last 1.5 year of its 7 year development. Imagine what it could have been if they were doing the same for most of the 7 years instead.

[@janrautenstrauch4729]

@@MorbidEelStill it was planned as life as a service - as EA commanded (hell Dragon Age 4 started it's developement as life as a service). And wasn't suicide squad also in developement for about 7 years? Avengers as well if i remember correctly. And in my opinion it doesn't matter if Bioware omly invested about 1.5 years time into programming. They released it anyway as finished product, so i'm gonna treat it as such. Also i do wanna make clear that i got a soft spot for Anthem. I like the gameplay-feeling - being like ironman with different suits and slightly different playstyles. But everything else sucked. I hope that - if Bioware gets back to its strength - they someday revisit Anthem for a sequel that makes up for everything. But right at the moment i can only hopy DA4 is good and they manage to survive.

[@MorbidEel]

@@janrautenstrauch4729 The point is that the business model isn't solely to blame. There was plenty of bad management. The problem isn't that they invested only 1.5 years. They invested 7 and only got 1.5. They paid for a $70 game and got a $15 game instead. Then they sold it to players for full price. Skull and Bones seems to have had the same problem judging from some post over at the Singapore subreddit. Lots of change in leadership and redesigns. There is also everyone's favorite money pit, Star Citizen. Games need to start with someone having a strong idea about what they want the game to be. It can not just be "we want to be able to rake in piles of money". Everyone already wants that as a baseline so if that is all you have then you have nothing.

[@Manic.miner2077]

Big respect to the people in charge, they clearly understand their customer base, they deserve a bigger bonus, stock options, what the hell, a Nobel peace prize.

[@toryburke137]

I can see Hogwarts working as a live service before I ever would have imagined SSquad being considered for one. With Hogwarts you could sell brooms, spell books, character accessories, do quidditch events, and many hogwarts themed foods and potions. Seems like a more sure bet.

[@mandalorianperseus4662]

They're crazier than that 1 arkham city goon's mom on prom night

[@crashzone6600]

Im happy for the companies that care more about their profits than the games they produce to go to mobile. It is kinda like they are quarantining themselves.

[@akatsukicloak]

"You will own nothing and be happy" looks like even games won't escape subscription models.

[@svoloch125]

I hate to say it, but the only way the "forever lifeservice subscription" model will ever work is the gamepass-like model. Offer 20+ year old games from your company for free and newer games as "free to play" while you pay the monthly subscription fee. However that would just create the same problem we are facing with streaming services right now - every company has their own streaming service and a lot of them can not offer anything of worth.

[@treedoor]

I'd have no problem with spending hundreds of dollars per year on a live service platform if it was quality and I was getting tons of value. The problem with WB and other publishers is they don't focus on quality first. They look at monetization methods, and they build a "game" which is nothing more than a funnel to the cash shop.

[@117johnpar]

Its almost like having all of your games take 5+ years to make, only to come out terrible and no one buys it, is a terrible business strategy. Who could have fathomed?

[@lycanwarrior2137]

5+ years to make AAA games is already the norm though.

[@117johnpar]

@@lycanwarrior2137 Yes, Thats what I'm saying. It shouldn't be.

[@spikem5950]

@@117johnpar I'd rather them take 5+ years and be good games than yearly rushed bullshit like Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed.

[@117johnpar]

@@spikem5950 I used to think the same thing. Black flag was made in a year. Still better than the game based on it that took 10 years to make. The reality is that it isnt actually about time. All the talk of "rushed" games has mostly been a cover for poor management, developer incompetence, and poor direction. I'd rather a studio be forced to make reasonable and achievable design decisions based on time constrains that often necessitate new innovation, than having no time or budget limits and make the nonsensical bloated pointless garbage that is our current AAA industries output. This is also an issue with actual physical space. Games seemingly dont have any drive restrictions, Most AAA games soaring past 100GB and much more for no qualitatively justifiable reason other than they arent being restricted anymore. Limitations are a good thing for creativity. Modern AAA gaming is the very keystone example of this.

[@spikem5950]

@@117johnpar You know, that's very true.

[@andyguzman6232]

They are going to start ruining their good games trying to create the new Fortnite , get ready for flop after flop

[@ryancialone3045]

It’s ridiculous. You can’t make a “new Fortnite” since Fortnite already exists. That niche in gaming is already filled.

[@marcdwonn9772]

But then we can enjoy years of amusing news like these, full of schadenfreude. I'm in.

[@RedRabbit-ZA]

I'm reminded of the cancelled WB game "This is Vegas". The development was taking too long and WB ended up cancelling it. It's funny now considering how long Suicide Squad took.

[@PhilosophicallyAmerican]

My father once told me, "Steady pays the bills." They are after a steady income. It makes sense on paper, but they don't know how to get there.

[@spikem5950]

Except this isn't steady. Keeping a good team on hand proven to make good games and just doing what your company is known for is steady, like working a 9-5. Jumping in on a trend, like trying to copy WoW's success, trying to get in on the military shooter fad, making something like Anthem or Hyenas to chase the success of like two games that were big on release, that's going to the casino and putting your month's rent and money from the car you just sold onto the poker table and playing until the place closes just to come back the next day or you lose everything.

[@mr.voidout4739]

They're done. You don't do that to the world's 2nd-most popular superhero and expect it to be well-received. We know the industry condition, we know what's going-on on the inside. But even past those reasons, it was absolutely unhinged and a giant middle finger to fans people by doing what they did to Batman. Sure; he's "died" multiple times in multiple stories, but never in such spiteful, shallow, and unceremonious ways. I no longer have any interest in anything DC moving-forward, unless it's been critically vetted to have a decent story and/or decent gameplay.

[@spikem5950]

I don't think the people working on the comics and animations had anything to do with that death. I imagine most of them had the same disgust as us when they saw it.

[@117johnpar]

"We want the monetary benefit of having a live service design structure, with none of the negative market stigma"

[@zer0_cool]

Wow, Rooterteeth gone, Red vs Blue, Achievement hunter, Rwby, loved so much of what they did but they have been a shell of their former selves, should have never tried to become some big media company.

[@dwavenminer]

I don't think them trying to be a large media company was the problem per sey. I think it has more to do with them hiring more and more non-gamers and activists that pushed the gamers out and thus, then not understanding their customers, gamers.

[@remor698]

What I find poetic about that whole situation is that RvB's final season is apparently still going to come out, making Red vs Blue's beginning and end also that of the company that grew from those humble beginnings of a bunch of idiots in a box canyon fighting over nothing. Also, for RWBY there is a highly unlikely but technically possible dream scenario that could come from this. With the IP up in the air, dillongoo has publicly stated his interest in acquiring it. In case you don't know, he is a former RWBY animator from Monty's time (R.I.P.) and friends with one Shane Newville, who is both also one of those OG animators and a family friend of Oum's, so there is that super faint glimmer of hope that both those series might find a satisfying end in spite of Roosterteeth.

[@Haku]

I think I get what you're saying about the "selling land" analogy. They no longer want you buying 10 games a year across various studios at $70 each where they might only get one or two of those sales if they're lucky, they want you to buy into the "last game you ever need to buy" and pay them all of those individual $70 payments in one place. Who cares if that one game can't even come close to the experience and story of any given single player game, they just want you trapped by sunken cost fallacies and fear of missing out that you just keep buying into this game instead. The execs saw Ready Player One and just keep yelling "make that!" and completely ignore everyone telling them that it was a film and is completely impossible in the real world.

[@JonAustinMedia]

Unfortunately any company beholden to investors tends to get focused more on investors than their business and the product becomes crap

[@fish5645]

Honestly if you didn't see this coming a few years ago you are blind to the current gaming industry especially the AAA side of it. There nothing here that wasn't predicted quite some time ago because these companies follow infant level patterns in how they work. Less game for more money, that is literally everything the AAA industry is about now except for very rare instances. Watching people make videos like "The next Hogwarts game will be live service?!" as if it was news, WB literally said they should have monetized it more after it was announced as a huge sales success. When will people actually start retaining information and learn from it?

[@vidal4457]

It's funny that they interpret selling crappy games as "the market being volatile"

[@andemnon657]

WB is on track to lose a lot of money, they still do not get it, they do not understand why the things they think are cool and that people will pay monthly for, aren't and the consumers won't buy into it. Its a lesson they have to experience to learn it seems, again and again and again. Maybe one day they will get it.

[@Calignos]

I'm actually not worried about this at all anymore. Indie games have stepped up tremendously over the past decade or so. I know that if AAA studios just continue the move to the live service model, I can simply play indie games, that often I enjoy far more than AAA games. Indie games will always exist so long as a platform exists to market them. There are so many talented developers who can create absolute masterpieces. Why? Passion.

[@DoctorCurse]

I hope they drive themselves into the ground so that the nemesis system becomes available for anybody. I still can't believe they made it almost 10 years ago and still have only made 2 games using it...

[@spikem5950]

The fact that they were allowed to patent that is insanity. As if they were the first game to do something of the sort and as if that would even justify it. Valve should've patented the loot box and Blizzard should've patented the MMO so we never would've ended up in this mess. Imagine if Half-Life 2 patented having physics systems in your games. That's the sort of thing WB getting to patent the nemesis system will be enabling.

[@seichhornchen]

Aw. You gave me a City of Heroes sad.

[@spikem5950]

Why? Homecoming is still doing well. Go play it!

[@Zaprozhan]

@@spikem5950 They got an operating licence from NC Soft... they are official!

[@choysum]

This is what happens when an org is so huge. Ppl miss the point why they are working there in the first place.

[@kronusx3484]

WB idea is great until it falls flat on its face if players hate it and they get in a bigger financial trouble.

[@supremekai5185]

The thing you have to understand is that they only need one win in the live service market to recoup all losses and then some. WHILE that is highly unlikely it is true that those few winning live services make all of the money not some money all the money and that is why they try so hard to get that golden goose.

[@spikem5950]

The thing you don't understand is that he only needs to win one poker game to recoup all losses and then some. WHILE that is highly unlikely it is true that those few winning gambling make all of the money not some money all the money and that is why they try to hard to get that big win.

[@Marta1Buck]

If Suicide Squad wasn't a life service game, then it's an unfinished game.

[@ZabeshoComics]

I mostly play retro these days. Gaming got frustrating the past 10 years. I can recommend to try out old games. Maybe they don't look stunning - but still they were designed for fun.

[@Fatman311]

'J.K. Rowling Rent' is the best label I've heard so far to describe live service gaming and gaming subscriptions.

[@jadams2289]

They could've made patches, DLC, and mod support for Hogwarts legacy, but they've been radio silent for a year. Games don't sell every single copy at launch, take skyrim for example, people are still buying it today because there's new (fan made) content. They could've perfected Hogwarts Legacy and then ported it into a Hogwarts Online, but the fact they haven't tells me they're operating with the wrong intentions. Their rigid "line go up" mentality will be their downfall, as it has with every company that forgot to make good products.

[@lomborg4876]

Last games I bought: - Lethal Company - Final Fantasy Remake (on sale) - Cyberpunk2077: Phantom Liberty (Just the DLC) - Black Mesa - Resident Evil 4 Remake - Resident Evil 3 Remake - BioShock collection … F*** Live service!

[@reahreic7698]

You should try Prey (2016) it's a good single player game with decent replay-ability.

[@Bzuhl]

Executive will complain about market volatility to excuse a lack of the investment required to get proper return. WB was not ready because movies get more slack from the communities and you don't get to stream how bad a movie is while watching it.

[@scottperry7311]

Gaming companies like WB are super spoiled, insane, and greedy. The see the few money making hit games and think that every game should be so lucrative, which many are not especially when they are garbage like they have been. Even if they had hit after hit and made tons of money it would NEVER be enough for them, they always want more and more and more, its an endless pit of desire which is totally detached from reality. The more of this I hear the more I keep my wallet closed, I with other gamers would do the same thing, but they don't, they spend money like it grows on trees which fuels this constant push to squeeze every penny out of gamers they can. This is also spreading to all kinds of other companies, like software, car companies, printers, and on and on and its really bad for consumers.

[@spikem5950]

1920's: "First time?" Welcome to late stage capitalism.

[@Pe37777]

I think it’s mainly shareholders who have no grasp of the gaming industry. They look at the numbers and go off trends and tell upper management what they want to see in their games. They don’t get that live service = risky they see it as the norm that makes the most amount of money. When things don’t go their way they blame the people who made the game rather than their bad decisions. For them to admit defeat and start making more single player/focused games that don’t necessarily have a plan to be live service is risky because they bet everything on live service gaming. If they transition they would most certainly have to downsize in some capacity with many layoffs including individuals at the top of the corporate ladder.

[@Mecks089]

Well then WB can enjoy their failure and extreme loss in profit. Which means, more layoffs! Yay! Down with AAA gaming!

[@TheRealRuddRants]

Good. It's not like I need to become a true gamer by playing Triple A video games. Screw that and threw out of the window.

[@marcdwonn9772]

Look at it like this: those laid off people will find jobs at better companies and make better games. Bad in the short run, good in the long run. Which is the opposite of what corporations do, btw - isn't it ironic?

[@Texansfan59]

Yeah but at the cost of ruining and spitting on the face of our beloved comic book characters...

[@spikem5950]

@@marcdwonn9772 If you think it's as simple as "they get fired so they find a better job!" you clearly have not looked for a job since covid in any regard, much less the gaming industry.

[@suimeingwong2043]

The games industry is really making me into a more informed buyer. It's good for me because I will be purchasing fewer titles. When I see a game advertised as AAA or even AAAA it just sets off alarm bells.

[@The1NickSkyline]

To quote someone I'm very familiar with: *"I don't give a damn what you people want!"* On a similar note, I as a fan of video games think I'm quite tired of having my intelligence insulted.

[@spikem5950]

CEO: "I don't give a damn what you're tired of!"

[@The1NickSkyline]

@@spikem5950Not quite what I had had in mind, but OK. My point is, WB's doing what they want, and as far as they're concerned, have all but said "fuck the consequences".

[@yaboyjay7202]

Multiversus is gonna be interesting. They did launch it early access, but no one playing thought that meant them pulling it completely, no less for this long. It was very feature complete and fun to play, but the only thing everyone agreed about was that the progression and especially the monetization were horrible. Will be very interesting to see what actually changed between the original release and now.

[@legi0naire]

Live service + Sweet Baby Inc, 70-100 base price for 10 hours of terrible story.

[@TheRealRuddRants]

Worthy of a C- or D+ tier game.

[@marcdwonn9772]

That's why i prefer playing mostly games from the past 20 years. And if something good releases these days, once a year or two, it's just the cherry on top. Playing the old games in VR even gives them a complete new lease of life and immersion.

[@Thandi123]

The thing that gets me with Suicide Squad, is that I could see how a live service game could have worked. In fact here is how I'd have done it: Story changes: Have the evil league be revealed to be the Justice Lords, with the actual league being off-world, maybe dealing with Super Braniac from Injustice to try and prevent an invasion from that reality. The main bosses were freed by the Justice Lords Unlimited - who did so as the first step to conquering the world. Their next step is getting ahold of mother boxes, so they can open portals to Lords' realities to bring in reinforcements. This brings on an invasion by Darkseid who doesn't appreciate having his stuff nicked. Lex meanwhile is potentially playing all sides of the conflict, using the Legion of Doom to take what he can in all of the chaos. The legion in story content works to advertise next season's squad unlocks. This gives you more seasonal bosses to work with than just having thirteen Brainiacs, and avoids issues like the fact that just about everyone in the league has broken brainwashing before. You could also run future storylines like an invasion by the Justice Axis or Crime Syndicate. The main point here is that it is a storyline that is infinitely expandable in a way that doesn't come off as "Now do the same thing 12 more times". Finally have Batman end up switching sides with a noble sacrifice. It is a much more fitting send-off, and allows much better use of Kevin Conroy. Gameplay: 1: Each character plays differently, with a different role in the party. Deadshot - ranged DPS with shooter mechanics, Killer Shark melee tank, Harley melee DPS, Boomerang ranged crowd control. 2: Unlock new members of the squad in the first season, and have more new members to unlock as seasonal content. The ice themed villains could do nifty stuff with creating difficult terrain or slowing enemies down, Mad Hatter could take control over human enemies. Music Master could cause mass confusion effects, Toy Man could set up turrets or little robot summons. Have some fun with it. 3: Keep loot as a mechanic, but have equipment be character specific, and themed for the character who uses it. 4: Three enemy factions: Lords, Lex, and Darkseid. Lords use brainwashed soldiers from their reality as their grunts, Lex uses robots, Darkseid uses parademons. Lex doubles as an excuse for PVP content.

[@spikem5950]

The issue here is that this takes effort and money to create.

[@ShinKyuubi]

Watch them lose MORE money on this live service always on push and then wonder WHY they keep losing money.

[@kamilzakrzewski4338]

You're doing great job keeping the community informed!

[@blackpawlo]

When you will make video about Sweet Baby Inc. ? Are you avoiding it?

[@UnrealCraft]

Just curious. Are you gonna talk about Sweet Baby Inc ?

[@earthforge3578]

As a gamer i dont want to play a chimera of IP's in a single game look at world and lore building of hoyoverse 1 single realm .

[@Suzuki_Hiakura]

I still remember going from playing the DS versions of Lego Star Wars and the Wii Lego Pirates of the Caribbean, and seeing the Lego characters talk for the first time in Lego Lord of the Rings... would describe that kind of game design as innovation, before it became nothing but a buzzword. The way I see it, these companies will bankrupt themselves chasing innovation as they try to make safe bets getting them couch change instead of risk making best sellers that get a portion of the customers paycheck...

[@ziljin]

And now they are delisting the Adult Swim games. Must be for tax writeoffs or something. Everything is David Zaslav fault!

[@cyxceven]

"Line go up forever" is such a hilariously childish mindset. Are they stupid? I can't believe these liars function normally in society.

[@fluidwolf]

They don't I imagine. They are likely all ultra rich people that have no idea how life actually works when you can't throw money at it

[@lycanwarrior2137]

In a world where Central Banks want yearly 2% inflation, that's why that mentality is a thing. Right or wrong.

[@noahmoore2608]

As a city of heroes fan, I can confirm that this is very funny to me. I am actually quite surprised that you know that game as well. It wasn’t the most popular thing in the world.

[@spikem5950]

He spoke about it a few times recently, Homecoming getting the official NCSoft license put it on his radar.