The White Councils of Middle-earth

The two White Councils of Middle-earth were groups of powerful beings made of Elves and Wizards, and they were considered to be the “Wise”. Today we discuss their collective histories as groups, and what deeds they accomplished. Thank you all so much for watching, let me know your thoughts about the two White Councils in the comments below! As always, a great thanks to the online artists whose visual works made this video possible! If you are one of the artists, please let me know and I will post your name and a link to your work in this description!
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[@MenoftheWest]

Thank you all for watching, it means a lot to me! What do you all think, did the White Council succeed or fail in their endeavor to lead the resistance against the Shadow? Could they have done more? Let me know your thoughts!

[@paulsteinhauser434]

I think they did do their mission. I'm not sure completely but Rivendell and Lothlorien were fighting Orcs during the War of the Ring.

[@lordheklsmosh9490]

Hey Men of the west a slight correction that you missed in the the title, Its not the white council. It's the white with a little bit of grey council.😁

[@kaidorade1317]

Unfortunately the White Council imo, is like any government: squabbling , desiring power and doing nothing to help their charges until it is too late

[@FireLordJohn3191]

I feel like they were ineffective.

[@Chris-fd9sg]

Ultimately, I feel like they succeeded as the One was destroyed. However, by missing Saruman’s treachery and jealousy it cost many more lives than it should have. Saruman should have been cast from the council much earlier.

[@beatleblev]

Gandalf refused leadership on the council because leadership was not his mandate as Gandalf the Grey. The Grey's mission was to be an ambassador of the West to the Free Peoples and as a spy against Sauron. He was the Grey Pilgrim to the elves, because he never made for himself a home in Middle Earth. He knew where his home was. He dreamt of it when his human body slept. He stayed on the move until his mission was done and his Enemy was defeated. He was a steward of hope, and of the Free People of Middle Earth in the stead of the Valar who sent him. Instead, it was Saruman the White's job to rally the West to stand against the Necromancer/Sauron. It was his mission to use his Aule given gifts to undermine and eventually lay Sauron low. The West should have been armed with the latest equipment and weapons worthy of an apprentice of Aule. Saruman's meticulous mind should have been turned towards an organized plan to use all of the Free People in concert, each using their unique strengths to augment and enhance one another should the Necromancer/Sauron rise again in force. It should have been Saruman on the move. Coordinating attacks from the East and South with the Blue Wizards, a rallying of the flora and fauna of Middle Earth against Sauron by Radigast, with Gandalf keeping one eye on Sauron and the other on the relationships that were necessary to maintain goodwill and cohesion in the West. Saruman should have been leading this effort like a conductor leading an orchestra. Instead, Saruman squandered his time in a fruitless search for the One Ring and wasted his talents on selfish endeavors, pursuing the ring craft of Celebrimbor and Sauron for his own gain, not the defense of the West. So it was the he, "Curunir Lan, Saruman the White, fell from his high errand, and becoming proud and impatient and enamored of power sought to have his own will by force, and to oust Sauron; but he was ensnared by that dark spirit, mightier than he."

[@IronDragon-2143]

The White Council is a fantastic example of how important friendship and alliances are when standing against evil. No matter how strong you are your friends and allies will make you stronger.

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

So true from the words of sora, “My friends are my power!”

[@IronDragon-2143]

@@jesuscoyt-munoz2753 Kingdom Hearts?

[@jesuscoyt-munoz2753]

@Iron Dragon 1990 Yes.

[@TheTabletopAlliance]

One of my favourite times of the week, the Yoystan upload!

[@MenoftheWest]

Oh thank you lads, you guys are the best!

[@xtremeranger30]

Galadriel was right to suggest Gandalf as the head of the White Council, but Gandalf turning down the position meant Saruman further gave into his pride and desire of mastery.

[@jeffbujun]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[@ToddTheTolerable]

For all the allures of power he may have ended up being Saruman in that scenario. He was right to turn it down.

[@aminiqbal4907]

His actions do not dictate that of others, it was up to Saruman to stay true to his mission.

[@Jake-rs9nq]

Saruman was the rightful head of the order, he had the backing of the Valar. If he had been denied the position, his pride would've been insulted far more, and his jealousy and rage would've been at least as great as they became in the original story.

[@basilforth]

Smoking a pipe helped Gandalf to listen to error without anger. An valuable skill, indeed.

[@davidbrennan660]

The Bong of Gandalf the Grey is lined up for next years April 1st .

[@sethmiller2534]

Flowing beards, vast wisdom, deep voices, enlightened eyes...these are your people, Yoystan

[@Mapdotnowhere]

Your love of the halfling’s leaf has clouded your judgment

[@jakecruise90]

"your love of the halflings' leaf has clearly slowed your mind”*

[@marjoe32]

maybe not my judgment but its clouding my room

[@Mapdotnowhere]

@@jakecruise90 see...... it’s working

[@ElkinsEric]

My love of the halflings leaf has awakened my.....appetite. 🤤

[@timbotook6447]

I can't believe Saruman would try to pass off the fact that the one ring washed out to sea. It's like a lazy excuse I tell my kids, when I don't want to research the real answer for something. Thank you for your research, as always!

[@MenoftheWest]

LOL so true, and they did not think that was too suspicious haha I appreciate you buddy!

[@orrointhewise87]

"I do not believe Thorin Oakenshield is answerable to anyone. Nor for that matter am I It is not me who you must answer to." Like the league of nations these councils were made with the best of intentions but they ultimately didnt last. Maybe if they were made earlier they would succeed? Still it draws the imagination that so many powerful figures would come together to figure out what to do with matters of the world. Would definitely love to be a fly on that wall during the Tolkien version of Yalta and Postdam :)

[@bighumpypumpy9327]

Honestly Yoystan doesn’t get enough views and recognition for the hard work he puts in and awesome content he gives us. Thank you

[@GirlNextGondor]

Great and thought-provoking video! It's hard for me to imagine a more 'active' White Council doing anything but creating problems. As it is, Galadriel barely withstood the temptation of the Ring when Frodo offered it to her: imagine all those powerful people realizing they're getting closer to finding the One Ring, knowing they have a chance to drive Sauron out for centuries while maintaining their own power, starting to mistrust each other.... It would be the First Age all over again.

[@yodaslovetoy]

What surprises me is how the white council didn't see saruman becoming evil

[@MenoftheWest]

Yeah honestly 😂 like either he's a traitor or he is incredibly incompetent.

[@paulwagner688]

I have always thought that at least in the beginning of the White Council of the Second Age, that there would also be a representative of the King in Armenelos

[@ryarbrough459]

That would have been my assumption too, considering the Council of the Second Age met very shortly after the end of the War of the Elves and Sauron. Since the Numenoreans were instrumental in aiding the Elves in Sauron's defeat, I'm sure the King or one of his major representatives would have been invited. Then again, since this White Council was primarily focused only on moving Elven interests out of Eregion, they may not have considered the subject to be of any interest to the Numenoreans.

[@kathleenhensley5951]

I don't know if is a lack of self confidence... or that he knew himself well enough to know that he would enjoy power far too much. The greatest horror for someone who is living a spiritual life sincerely is spiritual arrogance and pride. It is the one fall no one wants to have. That is what Saruman experienced. Think about being an angel, a spiritual being of light ... having help sing the universe into existence and you put on a suit of clothes (a body) and you fall for the lies. What a terrible fall he had!

[@patrikduller8449]

What a wonderful comment! :)

[@SarumanDeWhite]

Not bad

[@wellis3891]

It’s Monday 2:45am and my only concern is watching this, not the maths test I have in a few hours 🥲

[@MenoftheWest]

LOL I appreciate the dedication, but best wishes on the math test, my friend! You've got this!

[@philt2170]

5(- 3x - 2) - (x - 3) = -4(4x + 5) + 13 - "It's some form of elvish"

[@Voyagerthe2nd]

Let me guess... Australia?

[@christuspilatus]

"where am i? You are in the house of Elrond... And it is 2:45 in the morning on april the 18th, if you want to know Gandalf? Yes, im here... And you are lucky to be here too... a few more hours and you would not been able to do your math test"

A wizard arrives precisely when he means to bro.

[@paulsteinhauser434]

The White Council I believe did their duty. Rivendell and Lothlorien were fighting Orcs and Goblins during The War of the Ring.

[@brookssouders3112]

Hey it’s the best part of my Sunday. And this time I’m actually early

[@Thomas.Wright]

Just got home from Mass, and a new MOTW is up! Perfect Timing!

[@JohanHerrenberg]

Every video is a gem. A great joy! As for Gandalf, I think he is literally 'selfless'. His humility is a strength, but there is something to your criticism...

[@riassslave558]

I wish there was more info on the 2nd age White Council , it's a shame for it's alluded to in the Unfinished Tales book, but that just makes me believe that there may be unpublished information that may or may not see the light of day now that Tolkien's grandson is the living heir to the legacy hopefully Harper/Collins doesn't allow Amazon to much leeway with their upcoming 2nd age streaming series (fingers crossed )

[@hudsonball4702]

Sounds like a great premise for a "What If" video. What if Gandolf HAD taken leadership of the White Council?

[@rangerofthenorth1970]

In my opinnion they should act when Gandalf first spoke about Sauron...instead of listening Saruman's false beliefes....but they succeeded in their mission... Yoysten, sory if I misspelled your name, you are amazing and a true leader of the Wite Council (Us)

[@eacalvert]

Ty as always for your videos. Your calming voice always helps me on Sundays which tend to be the most stressful for me

[@Chronocrits]

Was just watching a different one of your videos. Lovely treat to sign off on a video and have a new one waiting for me.

[@seriously.....]

LOVE your work Yoyston !! Many times over.. !! I like to listen to MenOfTheWest when I'm trying to relax and take a few moments away from this crazy upside-down world we live in !! Ty so much for your hard working it truly is very much appreciated!!

[@mjlove07101996]

You should reach out to Stephen Colbert to get invited on his shown. It would be great for your channel and I am sure he already watches some of your videos. It would be awesome to see you both geek out about the history of Middle Earth 👍

[@marionbaggins]

Gandalf didn't believe in himself handling great power, it's almost as if Tolkien created the famous quote: "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility..." Thanks Mellon for the early videos, and important topics for videos for the LOTR on Prime...Until the end of the Second Age...Marion Baggins Out, having Breakfast and leaving for UNI!

[@plamen2530]

I have always wondered the intricacies of this, Thank you!

[@thehighguarduk4820]

Fantastic video really well done!

[@singingunbound9705]

Really enjoyed that. Thank you.

[@monitor-mindtheover-void6712]

Your videos relax my mind, thank you for making this great content. Tolkien must be very happy and proud that you all great people are still spreading his great lores😊.

[@pianogang2273]

Thank you for all your interesting uploads Yoystan, I really like them! Keep up the good work friend! : )

[@Beachbumartist]

Great video as usual.

[@maxmercer1931]

If only Saruman had been a pothead, then he never would have failed in his mission... Lmao

[@markstott6689]

I have always wondered how Saruman got away with it for so long? Galadriel, Glorfindel and Cirdan were Noldor. They saw through Sauron in the Second Age and Sauron was much more powerful and deceitful than Saruman. Between them misgivings about Saruman should have been self evident. Should have been discussed should have been acted upon, or at the very least they ought to have kept their eyes, ears and minds open. I suppose it would spoil a good story arc if they had been suspicious.

[@Epic_Kingdom]

Great video! Thank you.

[@timonsolus]

Regarding your criticism of Gandalf for not taking up the leadership of the White Council when Galadriel offered it to him: While you are correct that Gandalf’s reluctance to lead made the White Council less effective than it should have been, Gandalf’s humility may have had 2 benefits: 1) Saruman almost certainly would have fallen into evil ways sooner had he been denied the opportunity to lead the Council. Envy and hatred would have consumed him earlier. Perhaps Saruman would have begun searching for the One Ring earlier. Imagine if he had managed to track down Gollum before Aragorn did! Also, Saruman’s plans to destroy Rohan may have been better laid and more complete if begun at an earlier date. Rohan may have been weaker, and Isengard stronger, during the War of the Ring. Without Rohan, Minas Tirith would have fallen at the Battle of Pellanor Fields, and there would be no Army of the West to march on the Black Gate. 2) Gandalf’s humility was what enabled him to resist the temptation of taking the burden of the One Ring himself when Frodo offered it to him. Had Gandalf spent centuries leading the Council, he may inadvertently have become more prideful than he was in the actual timeline. An increased sense of personal responsibility for the fate of Middle Earth which would come from being the long time leader of the White Council - when added to his natural concern for Frodo’s safety - could possibly have misled Gandalf into making a dreadful mistake - which would have doomed both himself and Middle Earth. (This dynamic of greater power and influence exposing one to greater corruption may be part of the reason why Saruman himself became corrupted.) So in the end, perhaps it was better that Gandalf did not lead the White Council, after all.

[@knightonart8886]

3:43 My favorite picture of Gandalf. It perfectly captures the essence of the Grey Wanderer.

[@Ross-ch9vv]

Great video guys

[@SarumanDeWhite]

Gonna watch this now. Not sure what to expect!

[@hughgedney3393]

A great video as always Men of the West.

[@manwithapointystick3871]

I think that if the Council were more diplomatic with Saruman (like not directly refer to Gandalf as the wisest/more powerful in front of the supposed leader and such), maybe Saruman would not have felt threatened from the Council and especially from Gandalf. In my opinion this played a great deal in the fall of the white wizard, as he feared Gandalf taking his role as the chief of the Istari and thus he isolated himself in Orthanc, not having any true ally outside. But then again, pride is a subtle feeling and maybe if everyone treated him with more respect, it would have just reinforced Saruman's belief of his righteousness in taking the ring and dominate middle earth. I like to think that with a little tact and some more cohesion in the Council, things would have gone a lot smoother

[@harr1ska]

another video! and about my favourite characters too!

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks , really good subject

[@ianheins650]

Nice work dude thanks

[@knightbork]

I love you video btw. I just finished the Unfinished Tales, and in it Tolkien mentions that Gandalf may have had some fore knowledge of the events of the War of the Ring. It is suggested that he lost these memories when he reached Middle-Earth. It is further stated that these 'may' have been the reasons for which he mistrusted Saruman, & why he spent so much time in the Shire.

[@joshbone9888]

Nice video as always. It would be interesting to hear your theories about if Gandalf had accepted the position as head of the white council

[@davidbrennan660]

May this channel never fall into shadow.

[@apdarkness905]

A most interesting look into the fellowship of some of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth. I believe your judgment on matters is the correct one, had Gandalf taken the mantle of leadership of the council much of the horrors that was to engulf the lands of Men, Elves, and Dwarfs may never have come to pass, but even the very wise cannot see all ends. Sadly he did not wish for power but so do all who are best to wield it.

[@electricfan1085]

One of these days we will have an entire audio book from those quotes at the beginning

[@ryarbrough459]

A few things to consider here. While it is true that Gandalf did not take up the mantle of leadership, I do not believe that it was from a lack of self-confidence, but more a lack of desire to create a conflict when unity was needed. Had he attempted to claim the leadership of the Council, it would inevitably have caused conflict with Saruman and while Gandalf may not have been aware of Saruman's growing treachery, he knew full well about Saruman's pride. Hence, he may have attempted to avoid a rift between them for this reason. Also, it is well known that Saruman was a powerful speaker and his words may have swayed the Council's thinking enough to keep them from attacking initially as Gandalf wished. Then, of course, there is the minor matter that had Gandalf become the leader of the Council, they would have assaulted Dol Gulder much sooner and done at least a fair amount of damage to Sauron's plans. This, in turn, would have totally changed the entire history of the Third Age from that point on...and our story would be much different than it is. So there's that to consider. *laughs*

[@happywheeler4268]

This was really good. Only thing I would add is that the wise also met in the Third Age, TA 1100. Great post as always. Also the appendix states the wise were made up of eldar chiefs and istari. The hobbit also states this. Tolkien never distinguishes or differentiates between the number of istari part of the white council. He merely states the istari as a whole.

[@johnpatricktan5545]

Interesting video this is, it was sad but understandable that they didn’t show the whole council in the movies, well done my friend

[@therevyfilms246]

That's quite a title, you sir are brave 👏

[@mrperson0140]

Another great video Men of The West :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[@mbarrett99]

2:45 the characters depicted look suspiciously like the actors from the LotR movies.

[@jgsxarts]

yesss my fav topic!

[@ToLiveistoDie]

I would love to see a video about Nargothrond.

[@danielmorgan4134]

When are you planning to do your next live stream. I always seem to miss them.

[@MountainFisher]

If anyone has not read the Unfinished Tales (The Lost Lore Of Middle Earth) I highly recommend it. It has Gandalf's take on Quest For Erebor, my favorite chapter in the book. Not all of it is canon, but most is. Aldarion and Erendis is interesting on how Numenor became a Naval power that even Sauron surrendered to without a fight to Numenor's destruction. The chapter on the Druedain is an enchanting story of the probable ancestor of the Wild Men, or Woses of Druadan Forest and their friendship with the Folk of Haleth in the 1st Age. It also tells of their hatred of orcs. They had strange powers and the ones that went with the Edain to Numenor it was recorded they had foresight. Haleth was a woman warrior and had Amazon bodyguards. (Book's words not mine) Much much more, tales of Hurin, the 1st 170 pages. Plus the chapter on the Istari where the smoke rings tale comes from, I say again I really recommend it. The chapter on Cirion and Eorl is a must read for its background alone.

[@Championarcade]

What do you think would have happened if Saruman convinced the council not to attack sauron? Also I made it to the ruins of Erigion

[@MenoftheWest]

Great question. I think Sauron would have still returned to Mordor, but Dol Guldur would have been an even greater threat in the north than it was during the War of the Ring.

[@Championarcade]

@@MenoftheWest I agree with you there. It would of made his chances of destroying the north higher.

[@aceofhearts573]

I am surprised Gandalf never realized that Saruman had fallen and had been working against him and the council for some time.

[@wiebertjeen]

Could you do a video on which creatures were around in Middle Earth in the Second Age? (Basically asking which creatures might be seen in the upcoming LOTR tv show)

[@jacobcordner]

I'd love to see a video from you from a what if Gandalf did take up the leadership of the White Council and how doing so would change the fate of The Lord of The Ring's

[@rudyreimer302]

Someone may have mention this already, but I will if not. Tolkien was highly influenced b his experiences while serving at war and his academic knowledge. I think he saw the White Councils akin to the leaders and countries of Europe. While they desired too united against a common threat they were, historically unwilling, unable to do so. Just my thoughts...happy to discuss. Enjoy the content when Im can watch. Thank you.

[@ultravyletrock]

would be cool if they show the first white council in the Amazon series!

[@regalseagullGA]

Was Treebeard not also a member? I thought that maybe he was. But I could be miss remembering. Its been a while since I've read the books.

[@kurtissilva8951]

It’s such a chore trying to keep up with all these pointy eared elf’s names

[@1mezion]

I would love to see a series based on some of this with the production value of Game of Thrones

[@skylerbowling3243]

I would like to see a video on the hobbits pipe weed.

[@MenoftheWest]

Gotcha covered! kzbin.info/www/bejne/eqSnpIyjisqXndk

[@ralph90009]

I think Gandalf refusing leadership roles is exactly what he was meant to do. He was charged to help the free people's not by power or force of will, but by wise counsel and gentle encouragement. The flashes of his true power we see with Bilbo and Theoden are failures is his mission. Once he was sent back as the White, then the brakes were off, but Gandalf the Grey was specifically not supposed to be leading the free peoples of Arda.

[@bryanboobaby]

You should make a video on if radaghast stayed in middle earth or not ?

[@mkosmala1309]

Part of the reason Gandalf was still the Grey and not the White for so long was because of his reluctance to fully embrace the role to which he had been set by Eru. He had to grow to embrace his vocation in order to reach his full potential, at which point he became Gandalf the White. It was good and right to resist pride, yet he also needed to grow and embrace the role he'd been given so that, when he needed to take up that power, he would do so humbly and unselfishly. It was a natural part of his development. Would it have been better if it had happened sooner? Perhaps. Or perhaps, in ways we do not know, it would have ended worse. I think the real failure is in Sauruman being too arrogant to learn from the wisdom of his subordinate. Had he been as he was meant to be, then it would have been better.

[@KipIngram]

We don't know what Gandolph sensed "in his own character." Judging by his reaction when Frodo asked him to take the ring, he was very worried that if he did it would corrupt him. Maybe he believed, about himself, that "overt, recognized" power would function as a dangerous drug for him. We don't really like hearing that kind of thing - after all, he's... GANDOLPH. But, people have weaknesses, and those that are able to recognize their own and avoid arranging things in a way that exposes them to them tend to stay safer than those who aren't sensitive to that sort of thing.

[@HeartlessRandomguy]

Gandalf: 4 :20 is my favorite time of day

[@eonwe3559]

Could you do a video about the skin changers?

[@Jon-wm3wp]

Hello and welcome

[@stimpsonjcat67]

3:01 errrr...I don't remember reading her...tracts of land...were so large. But I disagree very much with your assertion that Gandalf refused power/leadership out of doubt. There is a kind of leader that can only lead from the back of the room in important meetings. Speaking tiny portions of truth...and only as necessary...to weave a future where the path is obvious. Picture the polar opposite of Grima. Not seeking power, but seeking to move power where it needs to be. Gandalf sacrificed the rule he could have easily had, had he wanted it, in favor of serving. He even names himself a servant. One of the things I love most about the movies is that Ian pays homage to this. The expressions he presents when sacrifice is needed are appropriate.

[@Steel-101]

The white council: “Frodo You’re on this council but we do not grant you the rank of master” Frodo: “what?! this is outrageous it’s unfair!!” Lol 😆 thanks for the video Mr. West 😎👍🏼👍🏼

[@heimdall1973]

What if Bilbo hadn't found the ring - Part 2 Bilbo managed to evade the orcs but either 1) didn't end up meeting Gollum but managed to find the way out 2) decided he didn't fancy talking to that abomination that was talking to himself, managed to escape because "the abomination" didn't want to wander too far from "home" 3) they talked like in the standard timeline but Bilbo decided he didn't want to stake his life or had a go until he ran out of riddles, then he decided to leg it like in 2) 4) using his sword, he forced Gollum to show him the way out (but Gollum ran off before anyone of the party would see him). So just like in standard timeline with the ring, he found his way out by himself (unless 4 happened), but without the ring in this timeline. He managed because, being a hobbit, he was stealthy. He didn't know about any ring or invisibility. He rejoined the party of dwarves and a wizard, the adventure continuing mostly like in the standard timeline... So, what next?

[@ericwaxman6437]

Not sure what more the White Counsel could have accomplished beyond driving Sauron back to Mordor even if they had acted earlier. This brings to mind Stalin’s famous quote about “how many divisions has the Pope”. Doubtful there was sufficient military might to beat Sauron after the War of the Last Alliance. The One Ring was ultimately destroyed by stealth, not force of arms.

[@tyroberts2261]

The purpose of the Isthari isn’t to protect the world, but to teach and advise the people’s of it. It’s like the US whose allies over rely it and do not defend themselves. Example only, don’t want to introduce politics.

[@poTato_777]

No

[@oliveremmettknox7776]

Why was Celeborn not present in any of the White Council's meetings or when the White Councul finally decided to drive the Necromancer (Sauron) out of Dol Guldur?

[@owendewaal9805]

The meetings are never shown in the books, he was likely there on both accounts. The hobbit movies just decided to skip his existance for some reason and filled the void with a strangely romantic tension between Gandalf and Galadriel.

[@benbrown8258]

Why didn't Galadriel look into sauermann mind?

[@tehwatcherintehwater2022]

Would Saruman have become the leader of the Counsel of Many Colours if he had won?

[@shadowofchaos8932]

What if Gandalf was given the Isengard palantir from the tower of Orthanc? Would Saruman still fall? Would Gandalf look and find the one ring?

[@MenoftheWest]

Great question! I think Gandalf would have been far more tempted to fall, since Sauron had mastery of the Ithil Stone. But perhaps Saruman would not have fallen.

[@shadowofchaos8932]

@@MenoftheWest yup, that was the direction I was thinking. Does Gandalf fall or master the stone? If Saruman holds true to the council, maybe they attack the Misty mountains and Gollum or Bilbo. So many stories.

[@andrewhu8021]

What do you think would happen if Sauron killed Isildur?

[@melkhiordarkfell4354]

I think having Gandalf lead the council would have been a huge mistake, without Gandalf travelling the land, learning the cultures and customs of the people and being a respected figure in all kingdoms, it would have been impossible to unite against Sauron in the War of the Ring, a more powerful White Council would not have had much authority over proud and fearful Men, Gondor would reject old lore and Rohan already feared "Elf Witches in the woods", they would have shut out the White Council and looked to their own boarders and more importantly the fate of the Ring and the Quest of Erebor. Without Gandalf falling in love with the Shire, there would not have been a Hobbit on the quest and if the Dwarves choose to take the quest themselves a mighty host would have just ended up as dragon food, leaving a much weaker North and a powerful dragon too, as for the Ring, Sauron would have grown in power in Mordor, too firmly secured for even the White Council to remove and no united West to stand against him, he would have sensed the Ring the next time Gollum wished to hunt and no one among the Free People would ever have seen a Nazgul venture into the Mountains, lead a host of goblins to kill Gollum and return to Mordor with the One Ring, sealing their doom as the new War of the Ring was launched.

[@ofb1583]

It seems entirely fitting for Gandalf to fulfil his Valar sent mission, to support & enable resistance to Sauron. Becoming tied to the Elves, would have led precisely to the very same disingenuous propaganda that led to Ar Pharazon's colossal fall. Being free to support & aid the free peoples without bias or prejudice, was exactly his mission. End result, Gandalf alone of the five Maiar, Astari, gets to spend time in Amman with at least three of the hobbits, Bilbo, Frodo & Sam. Other Maiar, were committed to the void , in almost perpetuity. Awareness with non-entity, shocking sentences from a less than merciful god!

[@ajgibson1307]

God bless

[@donright4492]

The white council had some of the best brightest and wise's good friends to the end and just characters in the council but it just took one for to all Fall down I mean I don't think they weren't really seeing the bigger plan and they were just too far apart like incidences during the retaking of erebor I don't know if I said that right excuse me if I did not but gandalf and elrond did not work fully together they suspected something from each other but didn't fully work out on the plan because he feared elrond may have different perspective on the journey to take back elbor then the evidence of that mugo blade? I don't know if I said that right but you know what I mean when he was trying to present it as evidence and then surimon The white? Kind of denied it like you could tell at that meeting that they kind of like had figgity trust I mean it wasn't that bad they just didn't want to like come out with it so there was some concern and doubt at that the same time the council was strong when they confronted something they all agree but one shredder truth come about sauron it was like I don't know we need proof it was a match of ideas and confusion and the traitor the same time whatever they needed was a wise good human from a different perspective but that would be kind of hard knowing you know some of the other leaders it wouldn't work out at that time maybe king of Rohan but you know what's going on behind closed doors there and it wasn't good Al tell you that but they did get things done at least what they could they couldn't be everywhere at once and that was the problem but if one didn't get corrupted they could have change the outcome but we'll never know

[@scottgrasser9475]

a big problem with the white councle was almost every member was inactive in the world the elf lords kept to themself s as did saruman they had great power but little true influence in the greater world

[@MediaSLSecondLife]

formidable 😜

[@light5978]

If gandalf take the leadership, he will mostly stay in Isengard, and he wont befriend with lot of creature like hobbits, thus he wont find the one ring. Imo, the reason they won the war againts sauron in lord of the ring events, is bcs they found the ring earlier than sauron expect. If gandalf stay in isengard, no one will know bilbo has the one ring, then it will be too late later to anticipate sauron. So imo, gandalf as a wonderer wizard is better than as a leader of white council

[@poTato_777]

Comment for algorithm gods

[@Zyzzek]

Timbo Took should have been on the council

[@MenoftheWest]

He would have made the best councilor

[@rileygilmartin9919]

The Fall of Ethilian Ethillian, O essence of elves, Why are your once white walls now blackened; And the great bridge now cloven and fragmented? Your ornate gate twisted and broken? Where is Gorondath, your high king? I no longer see his star shining in the night, For it faded into the twilight. Your great white halls are blood-stained and overgrown. Your ancient banners are rent and burned. And harken the silence, for I hear no more mirth or rapture. Where is the great host of warriors as innumerable as the stars? A shadow resides over you now. A great obscured evil whose flames devour the light. Even now, your vision has dissolved from awareness. For no one remains who still honors your previous grandeur; For nameless darkness lingers in your halls. By Riley. J.G

[@gundamofspitara7583]

I disagree with your assessment of Gandalf. Had he taken up the mantle of leadership, he would have been too busy to concern himself with the little folk, to have a chance meeting with Thorin, and to think of a specific Hobbit to fill the ranks of Thorin’s journey. The Ring would never have been found by Bilbo and instead its journey into the hands of evil would have occurred, like the Ring intended. Gandalf served a single master and thus did not falter in his assignment, letting his compassion for people Big and Small guide his life, and ultimately guide the fate of the world.