The Wishful Idealism of Hamilton

[@QuintonReviews]

I don't have a sponsor or anything to plug for this. Follow me on Twitter, and consider supporting me on Patreon! My Twitter ➱ twitter.com/Q_Review My Patreon ➱ www.patreon.com/QReview Also, subscribe to NerdSync so you can see when his video comes out! kzbin.info/door/URz5rKDgt7YibUSageNhEw

[@IrishEagIe]

Another great video, Quint.

[@theshenpartei]

Quinton Reviews go with raid

[@woah459]

@ everyone is biased. it is biased to say that quinton is biased. quinton used to be a conservative, he has had the thought processes of one, he knows how they think, and he thinks theyre wrong.

[@BunnyTsukino1999]

Star Wolf why would we listen to a fash? 😂

[@IrishEagIe]

@@BunnyTsukino1999 😐

[@alexbogolyubov3815]

the fact that i saw hatsune miku binder thomas jefferson outside of tumblr really punched me in the gut

[@mimikyuliker946]

I just checked that out for the first time. I think I’m having a stroke

[@YupCambodove]

the h u h ok nvm i know what your talkin about

[@thefakepie1126]

nothing wrong with loving anime and vocaloid btw , tho historical people didn't give a fuck about hatsune miku it didn't even exist yet , but let's not fall into the alt-right trap of "lol weeb cringe furry cringe" , that would be wrong

[@garfield336]

i think it’s more about them fetishizing a real, problematic person

[@Paytttoon]

THE FAKE PIE uh sorry but Thomas Jefferson in a miku binder deserves an “alt-right reaction” lmao

[@a_Lemming]

If any founding father would have been addicted to cocaine, it would be Benjamin Franklin

[@ianbyrne465]

Honestly, with all the did I wouldn't be surprised if he was coked up the entire time

[@Nono-hk3is]

He'd print several treatises on the health benefits and make them available in pamphlet form.

[@cheer90099]

@@Nono-hk3is Benjamin Franklin was the original shitposter

[@deadtoallnohonornohope]

@@cheer90099 he was also the prototype for modern marital neglect and child abuse dude was an asshole to his own child.

[@sholem_bond]

Nah, I just read his wikipedia page and I get way bigger "weed and maybe shrooms" vibes.

[@ThePonderer]

As someone living with three women who adore this show with every fiber of their beings, I’ve learned to just ignore any implications of it as an attempt at historical documentation and take it for the fanfiction it is.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

To be honest, before Leopold von Ranke, nearly all studies of history were mostly fanfic.

[@kylecross246]

Tbf when it first came out I hated how nice it made Hamilton out to be he was an arrogant narcissist who would do anything to succeed. Like fuck the terms of the collection he used to get to new York was "mate learn to be a doctor or a lawyer or something you know useful then come back and help us" Hamilton just abandoned them. But then I listened more to the music (mostly because its good) and watched the show and I learned to just enjoy it for what it is I would honestly have lovely more to see a show about Elizabeth she has a far more interesting life both during her time with Hamilton and after.

[@DrMattPhillips]

​@@kylecross246 I don't think it made him look nice at all, I think it's subjective and complex like all things. Everything you described I felt was in the final show. I say that as a historian who is aware of all the moments where the show focuses on legitimate historical moments and artistic liberty. Equally I don't think people give the show enough credit for how much historical information was correct and how much is artistic liberty and how the artistic paths away from history are creatively all very valid. People on Twitter post historically inaccurate information about Hamilton that sounds juicy and people buy into it because it sounds contrarian to something that is popular but in reality I didn't feel historically cheated by the musical at all.

[@Owithalessthanontop]

@@DrMattPhillips Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the musical made Hamilton undeservingly sympathetic. I believe the issue that I hear people (or Quinton specifically) expressing about the musical is not merely that it's inaccurate, but that in an attempt to Tell a Story, the musical orients the audience to be sympathetic to/relate to Hamilton in a way that they will consequently dismiss his harmful actions or participation in a harmful enterprise, for the sake of relating to him as a character. What I hear you saying about twitter people is that they are trying to tell a different story of Hamilton being a monstrous character, and use misinformation to do so which is harmful because information and history are valuable in themselves.

[@DrMattPhillips]

@@Owithalessthanontop My issue to Quinton's perepective is a lot of it is sited to the book 'Alaxander Hamilton' and slavery in relation to that in relation to undeserved sympathy but I've read that book last winter and I'm pretty certain none of the information he cited to it is actually in that book. Would love a specific chapter source since it's hard for me to address an opinion based from a source where I'm pretty certain the source says the opposite. He also stated Hamilton would say something racist in reply to seeing the play but I've read through many of Hamiltons documents written in his tone, voice and thoughts and I don't think that's correct at all and I think you'd have to work very hard to prove it. (almost like he stated with Angelica and Hamilton). It's also ironic as he stated about people conveying the founding fathers as things they are not and then does the very same. Equally his critical review of Lin's way of approaching Hamilton unintentionally relate to this very video and clear errors within it outside of the book of which I can't confirm to be wrong until able to talk to Quinton on his specific chapter source (which seems unlikely). But based on the book I read unless it was like "oh btw he had slaves sroz" I just don't see how it could be in the book without me noticing or how it'd even fit into the book I read that developes very differently. So I can't really take seriously the perspective that it makes a unsympathetic person sympatric when I see clear errors in the way the 'unsympathetic' part is argued.

[@welldamnjackie1320]

I sometimes like to imagine that one day, hundreds of years from now, someone will make a musical about internet celebrities or modern politicians, and people will wonder how historically accurate it is.

[@Quirderph]

Honestly, I hope they make that within my lifetime.

[@occasionalfan-content4771]

Good news, people already make stories using youtubers and celebrities as characters! Bad news, people make stories using real people that are still alive as characters.

[@redherronrecords]

Unfortunately for all of us... our online selves will long survive our physical selves and provide incontrovertible evidence of our collective stupidity to future generations.

[@nikkixx7964]

Looking forward to that Logan Paul musical in 2200!

[@donato8983]

@@nikkixx7964 "guys he filmed that body ironically, he redeemed himself with that podcast guys, I swear"

[@demetri2716]

As a black person I can accept this story as an idealized work of fiction and it would be silly to get mad about racial insensitivity when it single handedly employed and spotlighted more performers of color than basically everything else on Broadway combined. I just wish it were more upfront about the disparity between the characters and the real people they're based on

[@lizisverycool8711]

I've been thinking a lot about this too as of late, then I found this video. The way I see it, diversity is good as long as the racial make up doesn't affect the themes of the story. In most stories today, it doesn't, but depicting a slave owner as a black man does affect the themes of the show.

[@hardnewstakenharder]

Wow this show employed a couple dozen black and brown people on Broadway, and ticket prices were so high that the majority of black and brown people can't afford to see it. What a tremendous win for the working class.

[@demetri2716]

​@@hardnewstakenharder A couple dozen being employed by Broadway on this scale is absolutely amazing. And the majority of everyone can't see it, it's a theatre of 1,000 seats on a planet of over 7 billion people. You seem to be implying black and brown people can't have money And thats completely ignoring the fact that the show was filmed and is now on Disney plus for $9

[@hardnewstakenharder]

@@demetri2716 the majority of black and brown people in the united States and the world over are suffering harshly from colonialism and intergenerational poverty directly attributable to the United States, to suddenly ignore that and turn colorblind is a form of racism. I grew up in the barrio and mfs are struggling to survive to this day, watching a broadway show in no way alleviates our poverty or stops the cops from fucking with us. But I can see that there's class division between POC as well, as you're implying. You should read up on how Puerto Ricans protested against Lin-Manuel's show. They could give a fuck less about singing and dancing while Lin Manuel helped put their island under more debt and poverty due to the PROMESA act that Miranda championed.

[@Trollestiatumblur]

@@demetri2716 Your second comment is just… yikes. I’m black and Navajo. I love Hamilton because I can see it as something 100% fictional. I don’t associate the characters with the actual people. But white people can’t do the same. But that’s where my agreement with your comment ends. To pretend that racism doesn’t play a part when it comes to wealth is just extremely ignorant. And if you actually are black, you don’t have the privilege to ignore that. To ignore generational wealth, gentrification, red lining, how we’re treated in the work place, etc etc….. shameful.

[@CanIswearinmyhandle]

Those tumblr fanarts made me realize something; This is just the Hetalia fandom but laser-focused on just America

[@samt3412]

At least Hetalia is already ridiculously awful at history class.

[@SRLovesPandas1]

I just remembered how big early to mid 2010's Hetalia fandom was A dark time in my life

[@Rebazar]

And just as deeply cancerous, it turns out

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

Oh god Hetalia. Now that’s a name I hoped to never see arise from the pit

[@StarSnowGhost]

Hamilton is just a classier theater-buffs Hetalia w. better writing, pass it on!

[@lilhonor5425]

As a historian you really put a lot of my thoughts on Hamilton into words. While I enjoy it as a piece of theater I definitely view it as a ‘loose’ interpretation of these events and I acknowledge it’s problematic aspects. I also think Hamilton is an example of an overall trend with historical fiction about real people where people will cherry pick events and focus on the personal drama and romance rather than the hard realities. Also everyone comes to a piece of art like Hamilton with different background knowledge. Some people know all the dark and difficult aspects of the founding fathers and some people come with the sanitized elementary school perspective. That’s how you get both critical fans and the people who treat them like fictional characters to indentify with.

[@bewilderbeastie8899]

Trying to reconcile the actual methods of historiography and research with the human desire for simple narratives and black and white morality/heroes vs villains is possibly one of the most difficult things to actually do when creating historical fiction. Which is why I'd never try to make historical fiction myself, there's too much speculation to be placed upon real people. And yet Hamilton somehow doesn't bother me as much as something like the Elizabeth/Elizabeth: the Golden Age movies do, perhaps because it's so much more stylised.

[@lilhonor5425]

Bewilderbeastie Oh a hundred percent trying to make satisfying narratives out of real life is pretty difficult. Also especially since a lot of historical writing is arguing and not just reporting facts you can have one historian that agrees with the interpretation of a person and another one who doesn’t.

[@MadHatter42]

Do you think it's possible for us to enjoy both nuanced historical textbooks that give an honest and critical look at historical figures, and also grand acts of devotion the specifically celebrate their positive attributes and heroic achievements? Can there be any benefit to occasional bouts of hero worship?

[@BostonMBrand]

Bewilderbeastie While I agree with your statements, I think it’s definitely possible to create historical fiction that is able to encompass views and mixed beliefs, while also painting an accurate picture. A great example of this is the musical Assassins. The musical follows a scenario where a bunch of American assassins (mainly consisting of the ones who attempted or succeeded in killing a sitting president) all meet and interact with one another, sharing their experiences, morals and philosophies. This is all interconnected by musical ballads that summarize the events of each assassination attempt, each told from the point of both the individual assassins and a narrator. Each figure is given their time to shine and speak about their motivations, ambitions and what led them to their attempts. However, while the show frames every number in a way reminiscent of popular musical songs and tropes, it also reveals the irony of both the figures and the country all together. A great example is the first song, “The Ballad of Booth”, sung obviously by John Wilkes Booth. In the song, booth reflects on why he chose to murder Abraham Lincoln, painting a picture of himself as a man who wanted to avenge the ravaged South and dead confederate soldiers. He believes Lincoln was a tyrant and deserved to pay for his crimes. This is all presented as a lovely soliloquy of a misrepresented antihero. However, the show’s tone changes as Booth begins to ramble and rant. Delusional and angry, his words begin to shift to show his darker side as he uses racial slurs and defends slavery. After Booth commits suicide, the narrator even reflects on how Booth was a madman who pathed the way for bloodshed and violence. A similar theme is carried throughout the rest of the show, portraying the assassins as deeply disturbed figures who while having points to their madness, went about in the worst way possible. The overall theme of the show is that the American Dream, while ideal to many, enables some awful things to take place. Every assassin believed that it was their right to murder a president because they wanted liberty, freedom and happiness. Whether it was for their party, their country, their welfare, for love, or something else, their twisted minds all found a loophole. My point is that the musical, while giving the villains of our history time to shine, also paints an accurate picture of both the monsters these figures were and the shortcomings of our country’s philosophy. It’s possible to paint both an entertaining and informative picture, as well as an honest one.

[@lilhonor5425]

Mad Hatter I think it depends on the person the work focuses on. I do think there are people in history who are worth celebrating and for groups whose history is traditionally under represented ex. women, POC, LGBT people I think engaging in media that upholds those individuals can be empowering. However you can still run into problems with ‘hero worship’ style content. I know the recent Madame CJ Walker series on Netflix was pretty inaccurate and had issues. So I think we can enjoy stuff that holds people up and celebrates figures in some contexts but we still need to be aware that this may not be the whole story and do a little research.

[@Nono-hk3is]

Hamilton giving excuses for his infidelity doesn't come across as Miranda trying to excuse the behavior, it comes across as it Miranda acting out how a person excuses their behavior to themselves.

[@HisRedCoat]

Also Miranda has talked about how he changed out the original line "How could you do this?" to "How could I do this?" to ensure the audience didn't read the situation as him being the victim. Also why Burn exist, which very clearly depicts the victimhood and emotional trauma of Eliza.

[@w.k.astrolabe280]

He starts the song with these lines: "I hadn't slept in a week I was weak, I was awake You've never seen a bastard orphan more in need of a break" This is him manipulating the audience by rationalizing that he wasn't in his right mind because he was "tired" and reminds the audience of how difficult his childhood was. He then goes on to say explain that she was being abused by her husband. He, oh so graciously, gives her $30 and then she "leads him to her bed". That is Miranda saying "see it wasn't really his fault, he was tried and had a bad childhood. He was soooo giving and gave a poor abuse vicim $30. It's not his fault repaid him with sex". Not a good look for either of them. He was in a position of power. This is a crime. (At least in the US). Miranda worships Hamilton, a man that doesn't deserve idolization. In the past we ignored the major flaws of the founding fathers. I'm honestly not sure what is worse; ignoring their flaws or making excuses for them.

[@w.k.astrolabe280]

​@@HisRedCoat Notice that song, Burn, is not from Eliza's perceptive. It is from another man's. This shows a lack of self-awareness on the part of Miranda (and through him his character Hamilton).

[@magpie0_026]

@@w.k.astrolabe280 dude this was supposed to be from Hamilton's perspective. The WHOLE musical was supposed to be from Hamilton's perspective. Which is why he's rationalising his actions irrationally. And also all I got from that comment is that you... Don't like Lin?? At least you made it seem like it

[@alisaurus4224]

I also saw his lowest point in the play as getting Philip killed with his duel strategy, not the affair

[@odysseyi5992]

The pain in his voice when he talks about the Thomas Jefferson miku binder.... I’m so sorry Quinton

[@thefakepie1126]

what's wrong ? it's not accurate (and obviously wasn't meant to be) but people are allowed to create their own worlds of fiction and express themselves ! and there is nothing wrong with being a fan of vocaloid (neither with being a furry , a genderfluid , an anime lover , ect...)

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

@@Catchum Yeah and can you imagine how homophobic and transphobic he would actually be?

[@oneringtorulethemagicarp7199]

@@Catchum counterpoint: depict them as that intentionally to fuck with the fact that they were homophobic, transpohbic terrible people. I agree they should recognize that jeferson was a BAD PERSON, but I think its actually pretty humorous to look at these actual asshats and make them in to proud trans women of color lol

[@pugjuice8462]

@@Catchum the person who made the original was a trans minor on tumblr, for context. It would have never been exposed to so many eyes if not for people bringing it up again and again.

[@ridhosamudro2199]

@@thefakepie1126 It's more of "why him?" He's a real person. Imagine someone makes a depicted of you but they screw up your personalities to fit their liking.

[@Kwabsii]

I love this musical, but wouldn't dare to think that anything that is depicted is actually historically correct. It's a hip hop musical with people named after historical figures. It would be like playing Wolfenstein and then thinking nazis had arcane superpowers.

[@bjd4]

according to the history channel, they did!

[@melaniefelanie6423]

Wait do they not?

[@sambradley9091]

I mean, Wolfenstein is supposed to be fiction though. This is supposed to genuinely depict the struggles of these founders even with the intentional inaccuracies. The intent doesn't change just because it makes the play look worse.

[@bryntendo]

I laughed, but it's genuinely a pretty popular understanding that the nazis did indeed have superpowers. So many dramatised documentaries about nazi super-weapons and occult tendencies, that they were so advanced and so smart etcetcetc... That's the same goddamn propaganda they worked so hard to put out and maintain before and during WWII, and the popular imagination is so enamoured with it that they're still happily eating it up nearly a century later. Wow that's depressing.

[@yeetleslaw8529]

The nazi had access to spirit world and could summon demons. But Hilter and jesus put stop to that. You need to read a book.

[@woah459]

daveed diggs also disagrees with the idea that america is as good as hamilton acts

[@Advent3546]

Didn't he say Hamilton was a bad idea when he was first pitched it or something?

[@buckybarnes2026]

@@Advent3546 he did

[@fireballninja01]

daveed diggs good

[@mojotheaverage]

Daveed Diggs has definitely gone on to do more valuable work in Clipping. Listening to his music now, it doesn't surprise me that he doesn't agree with Hamilton the musical

[@ya9thelatinogringo]

@@mojotheaverage Clipping started before Hamilton, they formed in 2009 and their debut mixtape was in February of 2013

[@siennahartle9069]

Hamilton wasn’t the one advocating against slavery. That was John Laurens.

[@lydiavalentino]

The line "we'll never be free until we end slavery" in Yorktown is sung by *both* Laurens and Hamilton's characters

[@Binks129]

@@lydiavalentino Because he agreed with him. He wasn't the front runner.

[@Annaleebie]

I don't get why Thomas Paine was also abolitionist but only wrote about it to his friends instead of advocating too. Put your money where your mouth is, T Paine!

[@fruitypebs5875]

@@lydiavalentino hamilton was a slave trader.

[@rambutan5167]

But he did criticize Jefferson for owning slaves in the debate thing

[@taylah4057]

i heard someone describe hamilton as “really bad fan fanfiction with a good soundtrack” and it encapsulates everything i feel about it

[@oreo_6206]

now that's a good description.

[@americancommunist6076]

excellent description

[@kittypeanut4102]

Yeah, i agree

[@pawnhearts8785]

"Really bad" is stretching it. Hamilton is good fanfiction.

[@litjell]

@@pawnhearts8785 yeah, a bit OOC (out of character) but good

[@UndercoverGleek]

The screech I made at the “invented the swivel chair, is a child ra-“ part...oh boy I’m going to hell 😂

[@lucasmcinnis5045]

Say hi to Jefferson when you get there

[@theperpetualgrouch]

@Lucas McInnis LMAO

[@LOLelpepe]

Miranda himself has said that Hamilton is not meant to be historically accurate, the times where Hamilton tries to make himself the victim happens because it is meant to be from his perspective. In any case, the fact that there is a mixed representation in the musical makes me and many people very uncomfortable because, well, slaves and shit. But at the end of the day, it's fanfic in a musical, and still love the songs.

[@calebcraven7409]

Yeah i think you always have to remember who's telling the story, who the narrator is, cause that's always just as important as what youre seeing, who's eyes are you seeing it through.

[@LOLelpepe]

@@edelette6529 Yes, I think something a lot of people forget is that every piece of media has flaws, and that one doesn't have to agree with 100% every single thing from something to like it or admire it.

[@Pokemon_Trainer_Black]

Personally, I’m fine with the actors and actresses being mixed. When it come to the world of theater, where men will sometimes play woman, I think there’s more leniency towards skin color. Now, if slavery or racism was a major part of the story, then you’d want to keep the actors/actresses race accurate.

[@moona3206]

@@calebcraven7409 Isn't the narrator Burr ?

[@calebcraven7409]

@@moona3206 most of the play is but at the start of "Say No to This" Burr starts narrating and then goes "I'll let him tell it" and Hamilton starts narrating, so for that song Hamilton is the narrator

[@tyrap6949]

I think this is one of those things that you can enjoy knowing that its obviously very romanticized and not accurate. But, the problem comes when fans embrace it as reality and do all sorts of weird shit. Typical fandom, i guess.

[@OnlyRoke]

I always love the crowd who's like "OMFG who would've thought that rap music and historical bits about historical figures would work so well???" and I'm here like "Epic Rap Battles has been a thing forever by now"

[@theoleadfoot2864]

OnlyRoke ikr?

[@threedicksonabench3141]

But that’s different. This is more educational. Those are more for roasting. Unless ur talking about the cabinet battles then it’s just that their from the same time and their arguing actual events. In the raps I’ve seen of ERBOH I’ve only seen different people from different times fighting. Never at the same time over one issue.

[@drose6437]

@@threedicksonabench3141 erb is more educational than hamilton

[@Astolfo2001]

What about the opening theme to Liberty's Kids?

[@kittypeanut4102]

​​@@threedicksonabench3141 educational? They're telling a fictional story at this point. ERBOH has a lot of history accuracity.

[@Mitreme]

I think you’re putting Lin too high on a pedestal of “Hamilton expert.” I never thought of him as the end all be all in founding father history, nor did I never second guess things in the play, which is why I’ve done my fair share of research (perhaps that’s a good thing since the american education system truly fails us) Also I never got the vibe that Lin was trying to make Alex the victim in the reynolds affair. I think Say No to This is SOLEY the character hamilton trying to victimize himself, i never got the vibe that Lin was trying to sympathize with him. And I’m not saying there aren’t things I wish that were in there, I do wish there were more about how Alexander wasn’t actually a “slave savior” and fully played his part in racism. I try to remember that it’s hard to put everything you want into a 2 hour stage play. It’s tricky, I love the play, but I def understand the criticisms

[@eringoblah]

I really think he just wrote a musical about a figure he found interesting and took whatever liberties he wanted because it's just a musical. He didn't know it would explode and be taken as someone's history lesson plan.

[@isaguima9731]

To be fair, in the second Act Hamilton's character is portraited as an idealistic greedy maniac who cheated on his wife and caused the death of his son (at least that's what I took from it), so I wouldn't say that we were supposed to sympathize with him at all.

[@sierrad6771]

@@isaguima9731 I completely agree!! it's just a story with some chosen moments to emphasize how a man got himself to the top and then destroyed his own life. we watch him do so and we're like wow how could he be such an idiot???

[@isaguima9731]

@@sierrad6771 Yes. We can clearly notice this when the musical emphasizes little things like when Hamilton promised Lafayette to help with France after the war, and later in the second act he breaks his words in the court battle when defending they should remain neutral in the France x England war.

[@isaguima9731]

Once he became rich and the war ended, he stopped being revolutionary and became quite conservative and practized a lot of victim playing, contradicting his past self. For me, it's obvious we should see the character as an anti hero.

[@lunamalfoy7]

That fact that the founding fathers would be rolling in their graves over the fan art makes me very happy.

[@sylph8005]

They deserve as much

[@yay7707]

I highly doubt it, but possibly

[@sylph8005]

@@yay7707 They would. They were racist and cisgender, and probably wouldn't appreciate being drawn as transgender POC.

[@chrishansen2409]

@@sylph8005 they definitely wouldn’t understand it what so ever, they would also probably try to duel you over it too

[@sylph8005]

@@chrishansen2409 The Hatsune Miku binder they wouldn't understand, but they would probably understand being drawn as black. They'd hate that on its own, even before you describe to them what binders and Hatsune Miku are. Also, they probably wouldn't duel you for it, but just talk condescendingly to you about how you don't respect them enough

[@Nublet864]

History: the fandom you can get a degree in

[@saladman420]

bruhhhh

[@theperpetualgrouch]

The only reason why I chose to study it

[@BrandonCMaximum]

I feel like the musical acknowledges its own inaccuracies several times during the show. "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story", "Room Where It Happened", and "Burn" all show how there are plenty of gaps in this story. We don't know what Hamilton, Jefferson, and Madison discussed, we don't know how Eliza reacted to the Reynolds Pamphlet, etc. Miranda finds creative ways to gloss over the fact that he doesn't have the full story, and he even outright admits it to it with these songs, and that's some of the most interesting parts of the play to me. I can still absolutely see where it can become problematic, though.

[@facetsofus2008]

Bro I don’t think Lin Manuel Miranda is considered an expert on Hamilton’s life, nor do I think most people get the impression that the hip hop broadway musical is historically accurate. No one watches Jesus Christ superstar and thinks Andy Webber is a biblical scholar

[@samueljackson3512]

Perfect comparison.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

I thought JCSS was pretty accurate to The Passion

[@frankegordon326]

I gotta kinda disagree. The Broadway play has shaped in many ways how some people view the revolutionary war theres nothing wrong with examining the faults of that

[@patrickmeny1298]

i disagree. i've seen a lot of people my age claiming they only did well in their us history class because they were such huge hamilton fans.

[@cookiegal7340]

You watched Jesus Christ Superstar. A being of culture I see.

[@manleadertheater]

As a work of art (the story, the songs, the staging, etc) Hamilton is truly something special. The fact that it is targeting older audiences in its themes means that most viewers should be old enough to understand that this is a work of fiction based on real people/events. The bigger conversation should be about learning to differentiate the art and the history. It seems that many consumers cannot do this, and that is why there are so many arguments about the way historical figures are portrayed. There was a similar debate when The Greatest Showman came out about how Barnum was portrayed as a heroic figure when in reality he did some terrible things. Overall I don’t think it’s fair to limit art by saying historical figures and events need to be portrayed for the good and the bad, but instead we should be able to take the piece of art for what it is and learn to accept that it is not always (very rarely to be truthful) historically accurate.

[@jaskds]

Finally, someone else who sees this. If every piece of historical fiction was portrayed historically accurate, no one would consume it: it's long, it's mostly boring with a few moments of excitement, and it's fucked up. Yes, there is bad for every good- that's human nature for you; but that doesn't mean you need to include everything bad thing to appreciate the good.

[@earthwormjim91]

I wish more people were capable of thinking this way

[@Frosting1000]

Yeah! And plus it’s literally a fun hip hop musical abt the founding fathers with a majority POC cast, I never really expected it to be completely historically accurate. Yes Ik these were all bad ppl IRL. More than that, watching the musical actually got me interested in finding out the real history behind these stories in the first place.

[@Hakajin]

@@jaskds On the other hand, representation has real-world impact; it affects the people who lived it (and/or their decendents), who's celebrated and who's forgotten. It also affects what we believe and how we react in the present. With a work like this, I think it's obviously ahistorical enough that it's ok, but I don't think as many people know the truth behind The Greatest Showman. That's not to say it's a bad work and don't watch it... But it's important to be aware, and not everyone is. This leads into a broader debate about the responsibility of art, which I'm not going to get into here, but... Suffice it to say it's complicated and I think there's a lot of gray area.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

The issue is why idealize these people and portray them as not flawed enough?

[@blackphoenix77]

I look on Hamilton just as I look at other biopics: 95% fiction and 5% fact. Just enjoy it for what it is, and go look at other sources for more historical accuracy.

[@echfx9201]

yes thank you finally someone

[@candydrops6817]

Yeah I am in love with the musical but I am aware of how bad the people are themselves. I just accept the fantasy of Hamilton and enjoy it but I do not condone all of their actions.

[@candydrops6817]

@@UsernameVincent I'm no where near surpised i didn't spell that right, my social circle already accepted I suck at it XD. Thanks for telling me though :D

[@candydrops6817]

@@UsernameVincent I'd say so, just a bunch of crackheads in a group

[@threedicksonabench3141]

This is a good comment. Thank you.

[@space-case]

Hey remember when Alexander Hamilton got mad at John Adams because Hamilton wanted to go into an all out war with France to set up America as a global military power and Adams thought that was a dumb idea?

[@ThatOneComposerGuy]

Bingo!

[@discountchocolate4577]

Lol no wonder Obama liked this musical so much. It validated some of his worst impulses.

[@jamieds6538]

@@discountchocolate4577 this particular event wasn't shown in the musical

[@emblemblade9245]

JamieDS Filthy Republicans don’t know how to fact check lmao

[@GreekDudeYiannis]

@@jamieds6538 I think that's sort of the point

[@samh3305]

About the Angelica and Hamilton pairing, Lin mentions that it was to make the plot more interesting. He knows that Angelica was married before they even met.

[@rorythornton6159]

I think it's important to realise Miranda has the cast as majority poc because he is poc and understands that poc are under represented in musical theatre and it's harder for poc actors to get roles. Although it allows him to not focus on some of the issues that is not why he did it and he has said many times it is not history, it shouldn't be viewed as such but yeah great video, totally agree

[@affgrim6449]

The play is another attempt at woke capitalism. It’s trash

[@willw5868]

@@affgrim6449 what are you even talking about? Its got some crazy good music, and the acting and singing is undeniably top tier. I get not liking it but its far far from "trash", and is technically speaking quite impressive. Despite the issues presented in this video, the play is still quite well made.

[@12345678abracadabra]

@@affgrim6449 so the alternative is to keep poc from being in theatre?

[@themadoneplays7842]

@@affgrim6449 No you are

[@fusetunes]

i mean, imo there are a lot of better shows that have an all-poc cast. i appreciate what he was trying to do, but that doesn’t excuse the show from criticism.

[@ya9thelatinogringo]

The three-fifths compromise wasn't about deciding that "a slave was less than a man", that was a given for all of them. The southern states were trying to count slaves towards their populations to boost their statures in the house of representatives, even though they couldn't vote of course, and the northern states saw through that pretty obvious BS, wanted them to not count at all and they decided on three-fifths as a compromise. In a country where slavery is encouraged of course the slaves would be considered less than human. It was a value-neutral decision within an evil nation.

[@suddenllybah]

And don't forget that everyone was counting women and childern. ... despite neither of those classes having any voters.

[@elijahfordsidioticvarietys8770]

suddenllybah and anyone who didn’t own property, who also couldn’t vote.

[@DrMattPhillips]

"that was a given for all of them" No it wasn't. If you're going to correct a historical error then don't do it with another one. It's mentally easier to assume they all thought the same, but they all had different perspectives and journeys. The part he spoke of Hamilton specifically I'm pretty certain isn't in the very book he referenced having read that book myself last winter so outside of twitter contrarians I've seen no evidence of him being pro-slavery and in contrast to my history career I've seen tones of evidence including Hamilton's own writing showcasing strong opinions towards abolishing slavery and the very book it's apparently in conveys an entirely different message of Hamilton being sympathetic to the troubles of slavery having been raised as an illegitimate child and viewed as lesser. With none of the moments referenced in this video even being in said book. People are talking about history and it's importance to art and the threat to history though art but the biggest threat to history is social media where checking if what you're saying is even true is a luxury. Ben Franklin for example's opinions on it radically changed over his life, he believed it was normal to have house slaves because everyone else did but then read books on it in France and it turned him into a full anti-cruelty activist to all living things, he became vegetarian and became known as an old kook who would yell about slaves being wrong, making it so his fortune couldn't be inherited by his daughter unless she and her husband give up their slaves for good. But because his journey can't be surmised as a Tweet no one cares.

[@brianb.6356]

Yes: it was the slave states that wanted to count slaves as a whole person and the free states that opposed it, because "counting slaves as a whole person" in this context doesn't include giving them the right to vote.

[@swanslistener6130]

@@DrMattPhillips idk if that exonerates him. If you're talking about chernow, chernow isn't immune to bias about figures he feels invested in and iirc was writing for a mass market. Plus vocal condemnation of slavery doesn't translate to antiracism or even being that much of an abolitionist (see Jefferson, Washington). Hamilton was involved in the NY manumission society, but that org was more invested in convincing some slave owners to release enslaved ppl rather than challenging the institution or helping free people from enslavers regardless of enslaver's thoughts. So imho Quinton's point still stands: the musical portraying Hamilton as a proto abolitionist is dishonest and glosses over the ways in which Hamilton was a bystander to historical evil/complicit.

[@Jakeneutron]

You had me a Till you compared Hamilton to the Spongebob Musical 😭😭😭

[@mayraferrer826]

*Alexander SquarePants*

[@Ghosty_Blues1]

The spongebob musical is a tad better in my non solid opinion

[@reesecamez6888]

And spongebob is better

[@oliveintheroom1336]

Spongebob is just as good why is everyone hating on itty

[@Ghosty_Blues1]

Olive in the Room Bc they need shit to hate on ig

[@AustinTroth]

I saw Hamilton the other night and really enjoyed it, but definitely was questioning how much of it was actually real. I think your video makes a great case for the need to be considerate of the true historical nature, but didn't harp on it being like inherently a bad thing because of it. Was more informative than judgmental so I appreciate that tone

[@theshenpartei]

AustinTroth I thought it was ok

[@JoeySells.]

AustinTroth this was exactly what i thought. like were all the conversations completely made up just to push the story in the way it did in real life or was there some truth there?

[@dougrattmann3554]

@@JoeySells. Most of it is true, but there are some things that aren't true. Most of Burr in the first half is made up for the musical but the musical is fairly accurate as far as a musical about a founding father can be.

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

Most of the history in the play was accurate. There were a few major changes to Hamilton's family life for the purposes of theme and character development. There were also some concessions to production, like leaving out James Monroe and replacing him with another founding father who was already in the play. The characters themselves were also shifted along with the Overton window into something close to the modern equivalents of their historical views. There were some acknowledgements of the real history where the play didn't talk about it, but a lot of things were specifically included or left out for purposes of the modern narrative they were telling. Hamilton was actually an immigrant, but I doubt he thought of himself that way. I'm surprised they didn't include Washington insisting on the integration of the Hessian mercenaries from Germany. Franklin was afraid they were too foreign, but Washington insisted they would become American just like anyone else.

[@sentientblender]

Taking it *as a piece of historical fan fiction,* it’s pretty good. I’d like to hope the majority of people watch it knowing it’s not any kind of accurate historical account, but I guess there’s always going to be someone who takes it dead serious.

[@silentverity4975]

"[Hamilton's attempts to justify his affair] also comes across as Lin Manuel and other historians trying to do the same thing." You do kind of lose me, here? "I'm tired" is an absurdly weak justification, and in the same breath he's admitting to longing for his wife's sister, so I don't get any indication that Miranda was arguing on behalf of Alexander here. I'd definitely watch a follow-up video on this because as it stands, not sure how you're coming to that conclusion. Anyway, otherwise cool video.

[@eringoblah]

I think this is presuming a lot about Lin-Manuel Miranda's intention. He couldn't have known the impact this play would have, I think he just found Hamilton fascinating as a historical figure and thought he'd take some creative liberties and write a juicy play. The whole musical really just seems like the conflation of someone being a hip-hop and history geek at the same time, and seeing a historical biography they read through the prism of their hip-hop fandom. (I think all the critique that the play doesn't adequately address slavery is absolutely true, I just don't buy the speculations about LMM's motivations in this video.) edit: Also just remembered that there is a LMM episode of Drunk History, which is probably a better reflection of how he actually views the real Alexander Hamilton (not justifying the affair at all, amused by his failings).

[@w.k.astrolabe280]

I don't know if owning slaves and sexual assault are generally accepted as "amusing failings"

[@aspwillow]

trying to pick the straightest line through this story.... so, hamilton has an affair! -lmm

[@aspwillow]

@@w.k.astrolabe280 at the time, that was socially accepted. nobody is saying it's good, but it's amusing how much society has changed.

[@hoykfnvnnesnxnnensncjforkx1616]

@@aspwillow sorry but it never was socially accepted. Many people outside of our founding fathers were already trying to get rid of slavery even before 1776 and sexual assault wasn't acceptable either.

[@allseeingi337]

@@w.k.astrolabe280 are you talking about Thomas Jefferson or Alexander Hamilton?? Because Hamilton didn’t own slaves nor did he sexually assault anyone that we know of, Thomas Jefferson did.

[@luzdanieladelgadillopanozo8061]

I like Lin Manuel's Hamilton. I agree that it wasn't that accurate, but I think it serves as a gate. I didn't know a thing about American history till i came across this musical. I was in love with the story and the music, but it also made me separate the characters and the real thing. "I wanna know if this is real", that thought made me investigate about everything. Last year I had the chance to visit hamilton's grave, that's when I realized I had 2 different hamiltons in my head: one being Lin Manuel Miranda and the other one being the guy in the 10 dollar bill. The fact that there's no way you can relate the cast to the real founding fathers makes it easy to separate them. Anyways, I take it as art, and not so much as a biography or a precise depiction of history.

[@deborahcarson2655]

The character's domestic life is written to give the story a compelling narrative and isn't meant to be completely accurate. However, the facts regarding the Battle of Yorktown, the Federalist Papers, the arguments for and against establishing a national bank to assume the state's debts, and the Funding Act of 1790 (In the room where it happened) are accurate. And that's what's important.

[@Emileigggggh]

Good things Thomas Jefferson did: -invented the swivel chair Bad things Thomas Jefferson did: -literally everything else This was super well done! I'm glad that you commented on the "who tells your story" bit. Which is funny, because then even fans would make revisionist versions of the musical itself with those hatsune miku binder pics and headcanons etc, which says a lot about how people will tell the story OF a story even more tailored to their own experiences and heightening the aspects they can relate to/that resonate with them.

[@honieethesolarpunk4895]

Burrn

[@theshenpartei]

Emileigh With a G another good thing the Declaration of Independence

[@Xx_BoogieBomber_xX]

@@theshenpartei The Declaration could've said literally anything and history still would've played out almost identically

[@theshenpartei]

Smeetheens that too

[@mitchellhorton9382]

The Constitution was only written after they sent Jefferson off to Europe because he was such a crazy asshole

[@thatkidwiththehoodie]

Agh, that fucking trans Jefferson pic... Maybe I should hate it, but I just... I just can't bring myself to. I feel too sorry for it. Whoever the artist was clearly had their heart in the right place, even if not their brain, so all the dunking on it, however justified, just feels... mean. I can't imagine where the artist is now or what they're doing, but I do feel for them. Maybe I'm too sympathetic towards good intentions, I dunno. If some dumb, poorly-thought-through piece of art I did just for fun and positivity years ago suddenly got the whole internet laughing at me, I dunno how I'd cope. It's... It's complicated. Also, that outro. Somebody's been watching OSP, huh?

[@gilon-xx1es]

I kinda get it. My art was so terrible years ago I was a meme on 4chan. But hey if they made this years ago the probably feel the same way we do now.

[@MyCatEatsPlastic]

i remember hearing they attempted suicide a while back due to all the bullying they got but i don’t know what happened after edit: i looked it up and couldn’t find anything about an attempt, but apparently she apologized for miku binder jefferson and the gang, alongside other bad things she did. she said she was just projecting onto them and didn’t realize the implications of what she was doing. but these days she’s openly anti-BLM on twitter, ships real people (and apparently draws smut of them but i’m not about to look into that), roleplays as kurt cobain, and allegedly sexualizes minors on her tumblr but again i don’t want to look into that. she also drew smut of her teacher, someone said he groomed her and is now is jail but i couldn’t find screenshots or any other proof of that

[@Sovereignless_Soul]

@@MyCatEatsPlastic and not a single source was cited

[@theperpetualgrouch]

“Addicted to cocaine” Yeah, you had me at ‘clearly had their heart in the right place, even if not their brains’

[@thatkidwiththehoodie]

Vania Hammad yeahhhh, that, uh.... that might take a little more explaining lmao

[@catboymccartney]

I could have gone several more years before I had to see trans Thomas Jefferson again.

[@ar.6968]

I could have gone a lifetime.

[@gazeboist4535]

One thing I will say for 1776: "Molasses and Rum and Slaves" is (unless I misremember) a very, very clear villain song in a story that totally lacks villains, is significantly more dramatic and memorable than most of the surrounding events, and is never really rejected or refuted by the characters. They just ... ignore it. South Carolina folds because unity is important right now, and Georgia has switched sides. Georgia switches sides because a faithless elector just decides to switch the vote in the middle of the night. A deeper examination makes you (rightly) question the real morality of the men depicted, but it also does show that the story is deeper than a surface description would have you believe.

[@EmaAlvarado_iku]

"Competitive Smash Bros." in a hamilton biography is absolutely something that didn't age well.

[@nikkcrespo1969]

This comment hit me like a train

[@emblemblade9245]

Oh noooooo

[@IsaSaien]

You seem to be convinced that lin wrote this thinking noone would question it, but lin has stated that he changed things for the sake of a good narrative. Hamilton does not pretend to be historically accurate, it is based in a historical figure, but it is very clear that this is a modern interpretation of the events. Basically, if we judge the real people by today's moral standards, they would be unlikeable assholes. Because they were. These people have been turned into characters for the sake of making them fit better with today's standards. They are caricatures, with believable motivations and desires inside a story, but characters nonetheless. Lin Manuel Miranda has at no point pretended otherwise, and you can see him talk shit about the real person hamilton in some cases. So your point about Lin and other historians justifying Hamilton's actions is just boogus. Lin legit calls Hamilton out on it, and calls him a complete moron (or something similar) for writing the Reynolds pamphlet.

[@Starfish_Duder]

Exactly what I was thinking. Lin purposely put the "wait for it" chorus in Hurricane because he thought that Hamilton was a dumbass for writing the Reynold's Pamphlet.

[@shinjinobrave]

They were monstrous by the standards of their own day. You know how you can know that? You need only have asked a slave or a Native American what they thought of these blood soaked freaks. Any musical about the founding fathers should end with a Tarantino-style alternate ending of them getting absolutely wrecked into bloody paste.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

It's weird people say that you have to write them as morally white because assholes don't sell well, even though assholes do sell well and people enjoy watching them for various reasons.

[@IsaSaien]

@@shinjinobrave slavery, while factually fucking awful and evil, is also a huge part of our history. Since we abolished it, there is no nuance between different slave owners, if you own slaves you suck. This is good, that is what progress sounds like. However, we cannot hold historical figures to the same standard. They grew up with slavery being a normal thing, and whether they opposed it or not, they would have slaves of their own as it was just something that came with money and power. So in those times, being nice to your slaves or being sadist and abusing them does make a difference. When the time to abolish slavery arrived, those that denied and resisted should 100% be accountable for it, but not every person that owned slaves was a bad person, because what defines good and evil has changed since then. These people are not perfect, they were just politicians and human beings capable of mistakes, filled with pride, their ego and their self centered views very much like people today. The social standards they had to comform to were different, but people have always been the same Edit: also native americans were killing each other and abusing each other much more brutally than europeans did way before europeans even arrived. They are only seen as victims because the ones that remained for the longest were not warmongers and they lost a lot of their people and culture in an unfair seeming way, but factually europeans occupying america were not doing anything the natives wouldn't have done to each other, they just won, that is the only difference.

[@spiderdog07]

@@IsaSaien Thank you for bringing some nuance to historical representation. A lot of people look at historical figures and judge them based on modern standards and don't consider moral relativism. I can't hold it against my grandparents for not taking mental health seriously because the time period that they grew up, it wasn't taken seriously and wasn't properly known. Slavery was just an institution at the time, which became obsolete due to a mixture of technology and better moral standards. Besides the founders had to have some moral issues, because they essentially overthrew the government when they decided to replace the Articles of Confederation with the Constitution. The idea of a large scale democratic republic was risky and assumed would be a failure. America has issues in the past and future, but I can at least say that America gets better as time goes on, but we have to remember it was a process.

[@BugsyFoga]

" The Spongebob musical is better than Hamilton in every conceivable way " - Quinton

[@wright96d]

Where's that tweet about this being his most decisive video - even among fans

[@Olivia-ot6up]

he's right

[@justinlongo3667]

This but unironically

[@nightcollapse]

HES RIGHT

[@stickittotheman3296]

It's true, I saw it three times

[@HaydenofEverything]

I unironically agree with that final statement the Spongebob Squarepants musical was god-tier

[@redjirachi1]

Hamilton woke fan-art and Rule 34: Exists Alexander Hamilton: I didn't die for this Aaron Burr: I didn't shoot Hamilton for this John Adams: Somehow this is Jefferson's fault

[@haleypotter417]

As a Canadian with very little prior knowledge of what Hamilton would be, I wasn't overly fond of Alexander Hamilton. The only character I actually liked was Eliza and even then that is when thinking uncritically about the historical context or accuracy.

[@davispo7550]

@@goblinlibrary280 I don't think you're supposed to like almost everybody in the show. Cast white people in the roles and then you realize almost everybody is a slavery advocate, and those who aren't disappear or die

[@dontuserachelslurs]

I never thought Hamilton was supposed to be an accurate depiction of historical events. I always saw it as an idealized depiction of A.Ham's life from his perspective and then further altered for poetic and dramatic purpose. Love the musical and I love the critique of it. If nothing else it's a gotten me to read more about the historical figures I hadn't thought much about before.

[@Kumajirou13]

you come into my house you make me see that GODDAMN silhouette how could this happen

[@DreamGyrl360]

As a black woman who has been on the fence about Hamilton, you've espoused everything I've been mulling over in my brain. Thank you. I gave watched it 3 times and I've been asking the play WHY, WHY do you want me to love these people, why'd you make them black/poc, why are you playing with my mind?

[@swanslistener6130]

The fanart reading physically hurt me.

[@Avossk]

The silhouette.... I recognize that figure.... I wish I didn't

[@hamiltonkeener9078]

I’ve never seen Hamilton but it’s honestly sick that it’s named after me. 😎

[@tiaan7183]

Dude you're famous

[@nahualli_ashcrimson93thefi15]

Oh damn dude, you made it into the bigtime!

[@s-e-e-k-i-n-g]

i watched hamilton from a standpoint of already recognizing that it was going to prioritize interesting narrative with coherent themes over harsh, historically accurate realities. i like the way it does it with non-white cast and making rap the sound of the revolution, but for me that was also the signifier that this was not going to really be about hamilton the person or the people around him, but about hamilton the character and the characters around him. i went into it seeing it as a fictional story. HOWEVER... the problem is that these characters ARE based on real people and real events and when consuming art like this you always have to be aware of the real people the characters represent, who those people really were and what they really did, before you go off and use your platform to draw an abuser as a friendly drug dealer in a miku binder (which has its own flavours of weirdly amicably toned problematic(?????))

[@pugjuice8462]

if it helps to know, the artist was a trans minor on tumblr who didn't expect their art to blow up. it seems unlikely to have any thought of harm, in fact no thought at all, but unfortunately reached millions of people through sharing a meme

[@semi-sweet]

That genderfluid Jefferson fanart has been floating around for years, not months. It probably just didn't make it's way off of Tumblr until recently.

[@37yrNOT]

I can suspend my disbelief just because the historical changes were made to improve the story, I just wish people could realize it’s not real

[@itstytanic]

With the knowledge that Lin Manuel is a big Hamilton history buff, I guess it's a bit more disappointing that the play deviates from true history. But seeing as how every "Based on a True Story" film does the exact same thing, I never once assumed that Hamilton: The Play 100% accurately depicted Hamilton: the real life human being. You could apply a lot of the things said in this video to basically every biopic ever made. Editing historical events for the sake of a good story isn't a new concept

[@shapescolours8105]

If someone is gonna to watch or listen to Hamilton and take it as the truth then that’s their own ignorance. I really like it. I’m a big musical fan. However I never once thought it was true

[@spoonMANfork]

I don't agree that Hamilton is portrayed as a victim regarding the affair. The song "Burn" is arguably the most emotional and powerful of the play. This song makes you feel terrible for Eliza, and is meant to make the viewer realize the true victim of the affair. I feel like this isn't a fair evaluation of the play itself. You just took small parts and pieces that support a cynical perspective of the narrative. I accept that Hamilton is not a true historical depiction. I don't think this hurts the play at all. The way it's presented by an African American cast is brilliant and a good thing in my opinion. I just recently stumbled on your work and I like it a lot. I obviously enjoyed this play and I think it brings a lot to the table. It's very well deserving of its popularity IMO.

[@magpie0_026]

THANK YOU! Finally I found someone who was able to explain it rather than jumboing words together like me

[@plaguedoctor2882]

When creating Ocs a tutorial told me “If the shadow is recognizable, then that’s great!” It wasn’t a requirement, but I saw this video and literally just clicked because I recognized Miku Binder Thomas Jefferson-

[@lycaptain]

*_Lol me too-_*

[@bill6364]

3/5 compromise wasn’t unanimous. The southern colonies wanted slaves to count as a full person for representation purposes, while the northern colonies basically said you can’t count unfree people in congress. 3/5 ultimately benefited slave owners because by acquiring more human property in their state they increased the power they held in the house

[@francescawhite4166]

i wasn't ready for the shoutout to the spongebob musical but it was much appreciated

[@BillyOfOrange]

So I’ve had a bone to pick with a specific line in My Shot for years. Mulligan calls himself a tailors apprentice. He’s a slave. That line really softens what he had to go through

[@JM-fu6vy]

Mulligan had a slave named Cato who did a lot of work as a patriot spy for Mulligan and is probably who you're thinking of.

[@BillyOfOrange]

@@JM-fu6vy Oh right.

[@yay7707]

J M In defense of that, Mulligan treated Cato more as a friend than as a slave.

[@satinahall]

Hamilton is my favourite musical. I’ve seen both the Broadway recording and the show live in London about two years ago, and was surprised at how different the two Hamiltons I saw were. Lin Manuel Miranda is always super likeable, even when the character does terrible things, but when I saw it live the actor seemed to get more less sympathetic as the show went on. So when I got to the end I really didn’t know how to feel about him. His vote for Jefferson in the end certainly felt more spiteful and bitter than in the pro-shot, as if he was saying if he can’t be president then neither can Burr. But maybe that’s just a cultural change to the show here in the UK?

[@PyckledNyk]

It’s historical fan fiction. Anyone saying or thinking otherwise is a fool or mistaken. I don’t see a need to get your briefs in a bunch over it. There are far more toxic and problematic things in American media, and going after Hamilton seems like a cheap ploy to get views off of a popular IP

[@fizzrpg9961]

I never liked this guys content anyway

[@user0-d2r]

"It's funny to see historical figures of the past represented in ways they just weren't, and entirely to romanticize them in ways they don't deserve." This is the quote we should all be taking away from this! Great video!

[@legofarm13]

I’ve been a big fan of Hamilton for a long time, and over the years I’ve uncovered more about the nuances of its story than I ever thought possible. It’s a truly masterful execution of craft and I honestly think that it’s one of the greatest musicals ever created. But when I reflect on what I enjoy about it, I don’t find that I have a strong connection to its relevance to historical events. The things that make it so special to me are the themes, the characters, the relationships, the musical motifs, the physical movement, the visual design, the humor, and - perhaps most strongly - the song lyrics, which I think are just phenomenal. “Death doesn’t discriminate between the sinners and the saints / It takes and it takes and it takes and we keep living anyway” and “I imagine death so much it feels more like a memory / If I see it coming do I run or do I let it be?” are two lyrics that are so profound that I think they really transcend the medium of Broadway musicals, which are usually poked fun at and considered “corny.” And maybe they are, but I’ve always felt that it’s important to meet whatever art you’re consuming halfway. If a work informs you that part of its deal is song and dance numbers, then I think that you need to accept that for what it is before you appraise and criticize it. And I think that if you do that, Hamilton is undoubtedly going to be a transcendent, beautiful experience. As a story. That is being told on a stage. Using hip hop music. I think that it’s incredibly valuable to engage in discussions of its relation to actual historical events, but at this point in my life nothing really surprises me about the inaccuracy of the history I learned in school, so if I’m watching a historical adaptation I kind of assume that it’s a select telling of the events in question. I mean, at best it’s a secondary source, right? And even if the work is based entirely on primary sources, the accuracy of those is still up for debate. You will never get the full truth, and especially when creating a movie/play/musical a lot of the truth has to be cut in order to actually tell a compelling story. So I guess the tl;dr is that I absolutely love Hamilton, and I also think it’s very problematic to use as a historical reference. I think that’s probably something that future productions of the show should stress in their marketing and rollout: “this is art - not fact.”

[@WolfanTerror]

Eh, I just don't like it because I don't like the music

[@alexandrasmirnova9864]

Thank you for reminding of these wonderful lyrics! The musical is such an astonishing piece of art with a clear creators' voice, that it's a bit sad to hear 'hot takes' about historical accuracy or wrong choice of character. Maybe it's because I'm Russian and have never seen a realistic Western depiction of us, so I just enjoy art for art's sake, which is not bad.

[@mardalfossen]

If you think about it, the spongebob musical characters are in some ways more real than the Hamilton ones.

[@billyweed835]

I would personally argue that half the reason Hamilton comes across so sympathetic isn't that the play really wants him to be, at least, past a certain point...And, more that he's played with Lin-Manuel Miranda, who is a blistering charismatic man. Like, I don't think it's possible for him, or any character portrayed by him, to NOT be charming.

[@Monique.Marceline]

oh boy can’t wait to break out my Miku Hatsune binder and my “I MET GOD. SHE’S BLACK” Thomas Jefferson shirt for this video

[@grosezero8834]

they didn't use the iconic "I met god and she was black " shirt that jefferson is known for wearing. Cringe

[@thetreacherousleech8990]

Maybe it's also people's fault for not seperating fiction from reality when it comes to a hip hop musical about the founding fathers?

[@galacsinhajto]

I saw those tumblr posts in their "natural habitat" ,and at the time they were made, I can't describe the emotions that I am having after seeing them on youtube like this. I knew it was coming, but you just can't brace yourself

[@xboi4359]

I just want to point out that the 3/5th compromise was actually not a ploy to represent slaves as less than a man. The problem was that the south actually wanted slaves to count as a whole person to boost their populations and therefore gain more representatives in the house. It was the northerners who were against this and wanted slaves not to count. That's where the compromise comes in.

[@BugsyFoga]

I dont really know too much about Hamilton so this should be quite interesting to watch .

[@pizzatime8773]

what

[@theshenpartei]

Nathaniel Foga I thought was ok

[@ladyannmajora5666]

I'm begging you, you just need 1 more word for this to make sense

[@johnwerner69]

Same

[@tellnate29]

This is me but with everything on KZbin

[@nachoolo]

7:56 "Competitive gamer: Smash Bros" Oh Boy. Really bad moment to play that competitively...

[@pory913]

The song is from Alexanders perspective, so historical figures are seen differently than they should.

[@chrismarco17]

The show Hamilton walks a fine line between glorification and humanization. I think Lin wanted to still show the greatness of the Founding Fathers while also showing some of the skeletons in their closets (i.e. Washington looking unconformable when Eliza mentions her abolitionist efforts in Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story). However, I feel that Lin leaned more on the glorification than the humanization as per the unaddressed issues Quinton mentioned in the video. I certainly love the hip hop soundtrack of the show and its retelling of the found of America with a Person of Color cast but do I think people give him a lot more credit for humanizing the Founding Fathers than he might deserve. On another note, I would like if Quinton could do a similar video with the musical Six, since it's another historically inspired musical.

[@dichotomae]

I came here to be attacked and I'm honestly having such a good time right now

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Wait why attacked?

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

Also damn you're pretty

[@dichotomae]

@@ChangedMyNameFinally69 I just meant I really like Hamilton and i thought I would disagree with someone criticising it but I ended up liking the video a lot. And thanks, lol.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@dichotomae Got an IG?

[@LukeLeonettiYouTube]

Honestly stop bringing up the Thomas Jefferson picture. It was clearly done by a 16 year old who was just starting to experiment with gender and transitioning. Enough with it

[@andysanto6767]

Right? This has no bearing on what you're trying to say don't attack people like that.

[@captaincomic8678]

@@andysanto6767 Stupidity deserves to be made fun of, no?

[@andysanto6767]

@@captaincomic8678 not really, no. Certainly not to this extent, and certainly not when nobody is getting hurt.

[@captaincomic8678]

@@andysanto6767 Oh please, you make it sound like it's a war crime to mock people for doing stupid shit.

[@cywrld_]

I also grew up with the idolized image of the founding fathers. And as nice as it sounds that kids could grow up idolizing them through Hamilton, it’s just not right. Especially for minority children growing up in America. Of course their work on the constitution should never be discarded, it’s a major key factor that helped shaped America to what it is today. And as good as their work was it was also bad. These were wealthy white sexist racist men, and the majority of them vouched for the white men only (and sometimes only the wealthiest ones. ) And their motives were to benefit men like them and the younger generation has the right to know this and should be aware that the reason so many problems in America is because they depended on systematic racism. And til this day America depends on that system. I think it’s cool that Hamilton has a diverse cast but they could’ve easily created a fictionist country and characters with different names that were loosely inspired by these historical figures to avoid these issues. Obliviously everyone has the right to enjoy what they like and it shouldn’t stop you from watching and listening to Hamilton, it’s a great play with a great soundtrack. But it’s good to keep in mind that these were real people and.... they were terrible....

[@brody10123]

I disagree with parts of this video but I respect your criticism, I would never accuse Hamilton of being the be-all-end-all of progressive ideals but I don’t think that was Miranda’s goal with Hamilton. I also don’t think Hamilton was trying to present an accurate version of American history, I think Hamilton uses American history as the backdrop to what’s ultimately the story of one man and how he influenced people around him at one moment in time. Alexander Hamilton is debatably not even the main character of Hamilton, the story is influenced by his decisions and actions, but characters like Aaron Burr and Eliza are the primary focus.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

What parts?

[@riverrunpastadamandsteve]

Yeah but like what sensible human being would think that the people in history are good people?

[@Eamonshort1]

Indeed great men are very rarely good men

[@puns4days]

youd be surprised

[@Daddywiseclussy]

I only know of one and he was exiled from his kingdom for wanting to stop his people from dying in ww1

[@trinifernandez8870]

you'd be amazed

[@sambradley9091]

@@Jtzkb Uh. Most people don't have slaves.

[@shytendeakatamanoir9740]

That's the kind of thing we find very often in anime. Like, all the despiction of Nobunaga that has nothing to do with the historical Nobunaga, for example. You see a cool character, then check another anime/manga with a completely different character with the same name.

[@Hawkatana]

Nobunaga's a little different though, because before the 21st century came around, invoking his name in Japan was tantamount to invoking Hitler.

[@ChangedMyNameFinally69]

@@Hawkatana Mainly because the Japanese were butthurt he sat in chairs.

[@skyboxAngel]

as soon as I saw the silhouette of miku binder jefferson I felt real fear in my heart

[@itcouldbelupus2842]

As someone living in New Zealand, I always wanted to wait until Hamilton got here for me to finally see it live. But as time has passed I've come round to deciding to just watch it in Disney to appreciate how well made it is and go see the SpongeBob musical when I can.

[@MarkerMurker]

You know, I'm absolutely sure Lin-Manuel Miranda knew what he was doing. I think in an interview he said some things were changed for entertainment value. It's not that he wanted to mislead, he wanted to make it more cohesive and a bit more dramatic. Also that outro song brought back some deeply buried memories

[@richardgdungleman]

Damn, the theater kids gonna be mad at this one

[@mattm2451]

Funny thing about the end is I was supposed to see both the SpongeBob Musical in April and Hamilton in June for the first time each, and both didn't happen for obvious reasons, but my family decided we were all going to watch Hamilton tonight, and I was like, "So can we rent SpongeBob the Musical next week since it's not on KZbin anymore", because If I'm being honest with all the Hamilton discourse I became more excited for SpongeBob the Musical. I'm sure I'll enjoy both.

[@TBS_2001]

The fact that John Adams doesn’t appear in Hamilton kinda annoys me because him and Abagail Adams were easily the best Founding Fathers.

[@UdoADHD]

1. How is Lin the Hamilton expert? He is an artist, not a historian... 2. Since this is a dramatization, it’s safe to assume until proven otherwise many liberties were taken. I was pleasantly surprised by how many of the relationships were accurate 3. Historically, it was not a unanimous agreement that a slave is less than a man. It was a unanimous agreement that this issue is so touchy and hot that they couldn’t see how to get anything done without essentially “pretending” like it’s a non-issue until further notice. Slavery has always been a problem the south hoped they could keep skating by with. It was a wrong that was normalized because those opposed felt like “what else can we do?”

[@mmrw]

Yeah I was hoping someone would point out that about the Three-fifths Clause. I find Quinton puts a lot of inaccurate statements like that in his videos just for dramatic effect, which gets annoying.

[@amaryllis0]

To defend those tumblr pictures, they're clearly a modern alternate universe which is a pretty common fandom thing, not saying "the actual historical Hamilton was genderfluid", and while it's still weird and uncomfortable to romantacize these real-life slave owners etc. the idea that this is some sort of rewriting of history is nonsense.

[@kellyg2635]

I think that Hamilton is historical fiction and that nobody should take it as fact, because elements like an Angelica/Hamilton romance serves merely to add much-needed drama and tension, not necessarily because Lin thought he could get away with lying about history. Liberties are taken to tell a good story, and it’s not the musical’s responsibility to be an accurate and thorough history lesson AND the work of art that it is

[@kurtwagner350]

You can find skeletons in the closet of every great person of history, and we can easily judge them using hindsight but the fact is by modern day standards and sometimes by the standards of their day everyone is a bad person in some way or another because we are all (say it with me) HUMAN, no one is without sin and no one has ever not made a mistake or done something bad and so it all comes down to perspective, either you tear down every great man or woman who somehow furthered humanity because of their humanity or you can choose to acknowledge that most people are bad people and instead appreciate the things they did right.

[@Foozhochii]

Well, have fun trying to convince people like Quinten otherwise... Seems his content is set on creating a pretentious narrative.

[@marioalfredo5542]

I never felt that Manuel was trying to idolize Hamilton, but present him and the other founders as incredibly flawed men who did great things for their country. I appreciate your perspective and thank you for making this video.

[@willw5868]

It was never to be a piece of accurate history, Lin Manuel Miranda has said this many a time. Its musical theatre, of course things are romantic and unrealistic, its a bunch of grown men dancing around on a stage singing songs lmao. Take it for what it is, if anyone genuinely thinks Hamilton is an accurate historical representation then that's their problem not the play's.

[@lorddrayvon1426]

I think of Hamilton as this. It's as if someone in Hollywood read a story on Deviantart or Fanfiction and then decided to make a full scale production about it.

[@Murrytmds]

Great video! But The 3/5th compromise was about limiting the ability of southern states to count their slaves as citizens when they clearly were not being treated as such. Specifically the 3/5th compromise calls out that it is counting 3 out of every 5 slaves, not that each slave is 3/5ths of a person. It was proposed by James Wilson, an anti slavery justice.

[@joshou3759]

Im a filipino who’s first exposure to musicals was hamilton (and i still adore the show) but also im a massive history nerd. It felt very cringey when i was looking into the hamilton fandom and seeing people ship fucking historical people together like laurens and hamilton. Another thing, my friend who introduced me to hamilton seems to idolize him. He was disappointed when our history textbook didnt mention him once in the american revolution chapter and i had to remind him that hamilton was important, but not that important.

[@fatimagic1365]

see, i don't have a problem with people creating fanworks for the characters in the musical. they're so divorced from reality that they might as well be fiction. and most people in the fandom know that (i hope). what nauseates me is the people who do this with the actual historical figures. it just...makes my skin crawl.

[@skeletontime1223]

Everytime people talk about Hamilton I think of the 1776 musical lmao

[@MissionHorizonz]

97% of people from 1776 would say something racist. 40% of people in 2020 say something racist.

[@PizzaGravy]

are you saying Lin-Manuel Miranda is Hamilton kin?????????

[@real.sugarcone]

I love people pointing at the 3/5ths compromise and simplifying it to "the founding fathers unanimously agreeing that a slave was less than a man". A compromise is a situation in which neither party ends up happy. Not a single one of them agreed a slave was less than a man. Half of them believed a slave was a full man, half of them believed a slave was no man. They compromised - NOT "AGREED" - that a slave was less than a man. It's really not that hard to get.

[@unclekarl5219]

I think it says a lot that they saw human lives to be something that could be compromised on just because they were black