The Witcher 3, The Last of Us, and the "Daddening" of Video Games

[@johnstajduhar9617]

The big moment for me in the Witcher 3 was realizing that the story isn't about you. You're playing a part in someone else's story. And what kind of monster wouldn't have a freakin snowball fight with Ciri?

[@BrandonNinja]

It's still his story he's just not the most important.

[@ScantaniouslyCombust]

In the moment the choice is not immediately obvious that a snow ball fight would occur

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Because you dont know whether youre going to have a snowball fight with ciri. You just choose between the misleading choices of "You cant be good at everything" and "This will cheer you up"

[@Taliesin_]

@@BrandonNinja Geralt is the protagonist of the game, and Ciri is the protagonist of the world the game is set in.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

@White-Van Helsing Ive fought mudcrabs more fearsome than you

[@seankeogh6422]

A ‘dad’ story allows you to take a fully developed character that shouldn’t be able to develop further, and throw them into a scenario where they must alter their nature not to be their best self, but to be their best self ‘for’ someone they love.

[@wizfiasco123]

@farenheit041 bruh wtf

[@BackFromSpace]

@farenheit041 Nobody argues that it's true for you.

[@Alex13501]

@Geralt of Trivia I mean honestly, is this someones first time on the internet? If it exist, there is porn of it, if its popular, it only gets worse. Today, when you create character/thing and sent it away, you always have to expect these things to happen. Just look at undertale (no, dont actually do that...), ect. If there is a demand, there will be product.

[@kbg12ila]

You nailed it!

[@jebes909090]

Watch out for the child support and alimony debuff bro

[@TheRealGuywithoutaMustache]

The average age of a gamer is 31 now? I just learned something new, that actually blew my mind.

[@outofrocket6215]

That would ncludes like iPhone mobile games not quite your console owning player

[@necromorphxbrute]

Damn I remember when it was 16 and 8

[@gab_gallard]

Here are some pretty new statistics to consider (only US). Although is true that most players use smartphones, is also important to notice that more than half of the population of gamers do own a PC/console + a smartphone. www.theesa.com/esa-research/2019-essential-facts-about-the-computer-and-video-game-industry/

[@IHJello]

Im 29 and built my first pc last year. I grew up with console but now i live on my own and can afford nice things ive upgraded. I feel like a kid all over again. Heres to another 20 boys!

[@MrFreeForAll25]

Actually, I researched video games for school in like 2012, and it was also around 31 or 35 then, too. I think back then it made sense cause the 80’s were huge for games, and the kids that grew up with them never really stopped playing, but the 90’s were huge as well, so it kinda makes sense why it hovers around there.

[@Methren1]

Ciri having been sheltered all her life? I mean, her early years, maybe. But once she got like.. 15? her life essentially became the oppisite of sheltered.

[@DarkAvengerVIM]

She lived "the dream" of freedom... And all the consequences that came with it.

[@Methren1]

@@DarkAvengerVIM When she was with the rats? sure. After that? Nothing but slavery and improsonment until she managed to properly use her powers. Wich was quite some time.

[@Zenryo11]

All that desert stuff and hanging with those thieves. Oof.

[@DarkAvengerVIM]

@@Methren1 Yeah, I'm on Lady of The Lake RN. Not a fan of these elves. Which is why I was happy to choose "Wreck Avallach's Shit" in the game because screw him.

[@Methren1]

@@DarkAvengerVIM Avalach in the games is a wondeful man compared to the Books

[@MarcusVipsaniusAgrippaLXIII]

One of my favorite parts of Witcher three is that if you beat heart of stone before the main game one of the “rewards” from the man of glass is essentially directions on how to get the “best” ending. Brilliant piece of narrative design.

[@jackjager8790]

Agreed, amazing attention to details, and very indepth world-building.

[@endorsedbryce]

I still don't know what the best ending is. Becoming a Witcher is possibly the better ending for crie's happiness, but she'll also be condemned to the same life a Gerald always on the road putting her life on the line and struggling for money and being treated like a freak wherever she goes. Where as she may not be as happy as the queen, but she will probably do a lot more good for many many others. So i think which is the better ending is a verry much up to a persons personal values.

[@NeostormXLMAX]

EndorsedBryce well in the books she becomes a witcher but imo empress is better lol

[@paytonkilmer1920]

@@endorsedbryce As far as I'm concerned, Ciri becoming Empress or not is irrelevant to the overall state of the world, even if Nilfgaard wins the war completely. One person, even a monarch, can't fix the world, and while Ciri is a supremely adept combatant, she's neither politically savvy, or a particularly patient person. And even if she made for a picturesque Empress, it'd be at the cost of her happiness, and the results wouldn't be nearly as clean and nicely tied up as we might want to believe. And so I'm of the opinion that the world has taken enough from Ciri. She did her part and saved all of existence, so she can do whatever she damn well pleases. Emhyr's a piece of shit, but he's not a sadist. He'll rule Nilfgaard as well as he ever has, and the world will eventually stabilize, at least for a while. Basically I'm making Joel's decision, without the lie. World can go fuck itself, Ciri deserves to be happy.

[@firas9102]

@@paytonkilmer1920 Just like it says on Geralt's gwent card: ''If that's what it takes to save the world, it's better to let that world die''

[@mr.l2837]

My only real problem is Ellie was never told she would die for the surgery. Remember she is unconcious and is immediately taken in for surgery. The Fireflys were just going to do it without her consent. Now would she have given it, maybe. However if she didn't get a choice without knowing the consequences how is that okay?

[@frostthron8009]

I can't remember well enough but I think it was clearly implied she had consented to the surgery specially that after she woke up she knew that she was taken by fireflies so apparently she had woken up after the drowning scence and had talked to the people in charge

[@Rikku147]

@@frostthron8009 she really hadn't. It's implied that she's taken in unconscious since she doesn't remember what happened or where she was grabbed.

[@Rikku147]

Joel has to tell her that they found the fireflies. But that's when he starts to lie to her

[@frostthron8009]

@@Rikku147 you're probably right it's been a long time thanks I'll check it out

[@JimCullen]

There's also the fact that it was *far* from certain that her death would have resulted in a successful cure. The doctors' notes that Joel can pick up on the way through the compound heavily imply that there have been numerous previous similar attempts which all failed.

[@NickonStark]

dog why you cut Geralt’s hair like that? 😂

[@digthesechild-bearinghipsb2842]

Jesus Christ it's nasty

[@Peasant_of_Pontus]

You misread the last of us and forget two major facts. Ellie is still a child, guardians have to make choices for their children all the time. It's not inherently toxic, especially if it's in the child's best interest. Ciri is a grown up that makes her own choices. Being a good parent to an adult requires a radically different approach than being the same to a teenage girl. The second major issue is also that of a choice. Ciri makes a choice to potentially sacrifice her life knowing the danger and what's at stake. Ellie isn't given a choice to give her life, she is forced to do it by the scientists while unconscious. Joel isn't overturning her choice by killing those people since she didn't make it to begin with.

[@FrogLehane]

In regards to your second point, he lied to her, he didn't give her a choice. The problem was not saving her life, it was not giving her a choice after that and actually lying to her.

[@Peasant_of_Pontus]

@@FrogLehane There was no choice to be made anymore, the researchers were dead. He lied to her to spare her the guilt. It's questionable and could be argued against (same as his choice to save her in the first place), but it's not an objectively good or bad thing to do.

[@Whovian1029]

It is heavily suggested that Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself if given the choice. When Marlene points that out to Joel, he doesn't even object. He knows that would be her decision but still saves her and lies to her anyway.

[@princessthyemis]

EXCELLENT point!!! Yeah!!!

[@rina5221]

@@Peasant_of_Pontus the choice would be Joel shedding light on the destruction of fireflies (without Ellie's consent or even knowledge) and giving her the right to judge him (potentially giving her a conscious choice to reject him for what he did) or denying her of the option and maintaining the image he wants her to have of him, which isnt monstrous nor abusive, but a human weakness that he gave in to

[@rexroy101]

I think something not taken into account in this review is age. Eli is a tweenager into teenager while Ciri is a twenty-something. They are depicting two different aspects of fatherhood, the protecting portion and the nurturing to independence. Some might not see that as an excuse for the controlling aspect in the ending of the Last of Us, but I think that it makes sense. Let's bring in another video game that has good Dad vibes, the Walking Dead. In that, Clementine is much younger, the 8-11 year range. Now imagine having the decision of Witcher and the Last of Us endings. It would be horrifying if Lee let Clementine choose to possibly sacrifice herself for "the greater good". And I think that's the lane that the Last of Us is straddling. At what point should Eli get to make that decision. Personally, I would never let a 12-14 year old make a decision to sacrifice themselves even if it could save the world. And that would include both boys and girls. It would feel more like I was sacrificing them, then they were making a sacrifice themselves. Maturity is needed to make such a monumental decision.

[@veyarain82]

But consider that The Last Of Us is a world that does not favor childhood. How do you define maturity? Purely by age? A lot of people are forced to grow up and mature way faster than that, even today in our world. Someone who has learned to kill and hunt and negotiate to survive doesn’t exactly strike me as a child, not anymore. Sure, her brain’s development isn’t fully done, but I would still have to respect her and her choices given how fast she has had to grow up. She’s not an idiot who can’t make well informed choices just because she’s younger than 20. She’d be ridiculously lucky (or scarily skilled, or both) if she even /made/ it to 20 in that world.

[@princessthyemis]

Yeah, good point! Two different parts of the same spectrum. I dont like what he said about Joel controlling Ellie, though; he totally treats her like an equal (compared to Henry and Sam), up until the end yes admittedly, but that's because he's flawed, therefore interesting...but saying he took away her freedom and choice is viewing him as Way To Evil in my opinion. It's believable to treat someone as an equal and still want to care for and protect them, isn't it?!

[@mcgingerchops]

When people bring up Joel "stealing her choice" they never seem to think about how: 1) There isn't any indication that Ellie knows the procedure is fatal. 2) The Fireflies force Joel into the position of either allowing his surrogate daughter to be murdered for the chance of a cure or to do the same thing he's been doing throughout the game: prevent anyone from hurting her. The Fireflies don't give her a choice and justify murder by invoking "the greater good." Joel doesn't give her a choice, but he's in a situation where that isn't an option. So he protects her. Should he have told her at the end? Yes, definitely. He should've told the truth. I'm guessing that'll be a major plot point in the next game.

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

@@princessthyemis It's not way too evil, it's what he did. It is so common for parents to take choice away from their children. The reason Joel is seen as possessive and manipulative, is because he took away what Ellie perceived to be her purpose in life. To her, all this destruction would've been worth it, if it meant ending the virus. Joel knew this and did not care. And knowing he fucked up, lied to Ellie about it. Joel is understandable but he's not justified. He had to make a hard decision, but in the end it was never his decision to make.

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

@Frank Castle That's an interesting interpretation. However a vaccine would solve the core fucking issue of the world, and the settlement would be what's needed to rebuild. All that to say, it was always Ellie's. It's Ellie's body and Ellie's choice. She knew the risks and she wanted to take them. I'm not saying it's easy for anyone. I'm not saying Joel is evil. Just that it's her choice.

[@Ouvii]

The Witcher audiobooks are fantastic. Geralt in the Sword of Destiny actually singing to a mermaid in their musical language is freakin' hilarious.

[@ViridianForests]

Ok, I might actually read those after hearing that XD And I know nothing about the Witcher series other than the name hahah

[@princeali4157]

Peter Kenny is a legend.

[@apullcan]

please talk about more video game stories. video game writing is such a complicated art(and different than other mediums), I'd love to hear your two cents on more of them.

[@VioletAasimarOfficial]

You're right about it being complicated (I'd say 'complex' because complicated gives it a negative connotation, but anyway...). I'd love to write stories for video games, because they provide an entirely different space for storytelling. I'm fascinated by it.

[@samwizgamgie3rd828]

Sorry, gaming writing is dead, murdered by the brutes...I mean micro transactions.

[@blahblahsaurus2458]

Check out this guy kzbin.info for some excellent, very in-depth reviews of games

[@Oxtocoatl13]

The mechanics of CKII incentivized me to have three of my own illegitimate children murdered so I could inherit England. So... did the game push me to play the ultimate anti-dad?

[@Vityvikt0r]

That, and an average medieval ruler. lol

[@horacefairview5349]

That doesnt sound right. hyperbole?

[@DzinkyDzink]

Since when was CKII a dad simulator?

[@Oxtocoatl13]

@@DzinkyDzink family has always been quite central to the game, whether you're a father, a son, a mom, a wife or a brother or sister. In the game, family is both your only hope and your worst enemy.

[@Oxtocoatl13]

@@horacefairview5349 nope, just my fault for sleeping with the queen (my sister in law) while conspiring for the throne of my brother

[@ianmoone1412]

i really liked the lee cleminte relationship in tell tale walking dead season 1.

[@MerakiPigGaming]

That's one of my favourite games of all time! 😊

[@lordbafford640]

Yeah, but I also hated the onion cutting ninjas that came with it...

[@Stormertheboy]

nah it’s overrated asf they don’t compare to the witcher 3 and the last of us

[@ololusername]

@@RokokoisBased why?

[@LikeStoriesofOld]

Hey, this was a really cool video! Gave me lots to think about as I consider The Last of Us and the Witcher 3 to be among my favorite video games. I actually did a video on The Witcher 3 not too long ago that came to a similar conclusion, although mine focused more on game design and the role of player agency and narrative freedom. The Last of Us of course has a linear narrative that you as the player don’t get to influence, which I imagine changes the way the story is experienced to some degree. But putting that aside, I think there are some other differences in the story as well that are worth considering and might add some nuances to the conclusions you make about The Last of Us. For starters, Ellie is a minor, one who hasn’t had much real world experience (granted; the Left Behind DLC fleshed this out a little), which is unlike Ciri who is already an adult and has been adventuring on her own for quite some time at the beginning of The Witcher 3. So while I would agree that it was important that the relation between Geralt and Ciri was an equal one for it to be commendable, I would argue that it’s a bit more complicated with Joel and Ellie because Ellie hasn’t fully exited childhood and therefore the power dynamic in their relation is naturally a bit more skewed (as it is with any child-parent relation in the early phase where the parent carries responsibility over the child, especially when it comes to life-altering decisions). I think it’s also worth questioning how much agency Ellie really has at the end. The Fireflies are known as a ‘sacrifice for the greater good’ type group and have been shown to resort to violence when deemed necessary. Side-stepping the content of their ideology, the value of their goal of re-establishing top-down societal organization in a post-societal world, and the assumed guarantee that Ellie’s sacrifice would have led to a meaningful outcome… let’s say Ellie backed down and refused to undergo surgery, would they really have respected her decision? Would they not have assumed dominion over her in the same way that Joel did at the end? Also, what does Ellie really want? Is sacrificing herself truly the best possible fulfillment of her desires? Yes, she has lost her only friend, and I think you can argue that this is what motivated her to help create a cure. But looking at it more closely, who would this cure be for? Her friend is gone, and, as far as she knows, the rest of the world is either unknown or dangerous. If all you’ve encountered is lost souls, bandits and cannibals, would you really be driven to sacrifice yourself for a Hail Mary to save them? I think that, like Joel, what Ellie really wanted is what she had lost, someone to connect to. From the very beginning, Ellie is treated as precious cargo, as a living McGuffin. It’s only in Left Behind where we see her in a relation that is unburdened by the knowledge of her immunity, one that is pure and honest. The way I saw it, the ending to The Last of Us can be interpreted in 3 ways, 1; Ellie doesn’t know Joel is lying, 2; Ellie knows Joel is lying and vilifies him for it (making it the most tragic/toxic outcome), and, my favorite, 3; Ellie knows Joel is lying, but accepts his lie nonetheless as deep down, all she really wanted was someone to love and care for her. Again, I don’t mean to negate the points you make about Joel’s selfish behavior, but I also think the story is much more interesting when framed in this context of a fallen world where no one gets what they want and instead, everyone is trying to make the best of what they’re given. Joel wanted his daughter, but instead is given Ellie; a sweet girl, but not Sarah. Ellie wanted to be loved, but instead is given Joel; a man who cares for her, though that care is rooted in patriarchal control. Is it an inspiring tale about fatherhood? Not exactly. But a complicated story about the human condition? Definitely a yes for me.

[@raymk]

I love this comment. I think part of the questionabout sacrifice can also be found in Avengers: Infinity War. For me, not only the purpose of a sacrifice has to be correct, the way the purpose to achieve the purpose is also extremely essential to for the greater good.

[@braytongoodall2598]

Like Stories Of Old, excellent comment. If you haven't seen District 9 yet, please do so. It is a great film and explores The Other in a gentle way.

[@thebrokedad858]

I came here to make a similar comment, but you made it better than I could. It's complicated because Ellie isn't an adult. A parental relationship should move from authoritative to advisory over time. Geralt is in the advisory stage, whereas Joel is still more in between the two. Also worth noting is that in-game lore makes it pretty clear that the Fireflies have already killed numerous other immune individuals seeking in vain for a cure. Ellie isn't their only shot, she's just the latest in a long line of sacrificial lab rats they are using. And I agree with your interpretation of the ending. I think Ellie knows Joel is lying, but accepts it anyway because she realizes what is at stake.

[@mateszucs8975]

One little thing: watch Nando V Movies' video about McGuffins.

[@samwizgamgie3rd828]

Guys, I don't have anything to add. I just love this conversation and the insight I got from it. I do wonder what the next wave would be. I would like to see games that involve both parental influence on the youth. What would you guys like to see besides from the daddening in gaming? Not to stray from the amazing conversation.

[@thezatren6481]

I agree with everything you said except for your characterization of Joel's choice at the end of TLOU. There was no way Joel could know that the procedure would result in a cure for certain.

[@riotdancesquadleader1047]

Also Ellie is a kid who was basically roofied "for the greater good." Kids can't consent to self-sacrifice even if they want to and its adults' job not to put them in that position in the first place.

[@SuperOnigiripanda]

When I first played the game I thought that Joel was monstrous for his decisions. However, after playing again I start to feel and understand Joel and why he did what he did.

[@jakegray1723]

Actually there is @the Zatren. You can find in the last level(?) Notes that tell of other subjects just like Ellie, immune to the fungus, who underwent the same procedure and died.

[@riotdancesquadleader1047]

@charlie freeman meh. not a dad, not a dude, not a parent at all, just got consistent ethics

[@internisus]

Of course there is no certainty that it would have resulted in a cure, but, in my opinion, the ending is at its most interesting if we don't look for these nuances. The most powerful version of the story is simply: Ellie's life vs. a cure.

[@KageRyuu6]

I hate to tell you this, but a fourteen year old is not mentally developed enough to understand the full ramifications of their actions, hence why their parents are legally obligated to make decisions for them. So whether or not Joel is psychotic given what one must do to survive in the world of Last of Us, Joel is no more possessive than any parent would be for their fourteen year old child. Ciri however is twenty one and should be mentally developed enough to understand the full ramifications of her actions, and thus Geralt lets his adult adopted daughter make her own decisions, while balancing his role as a father and a Witcher.

[@byron4545]

A 14 year old growing up in the apocalypse certainly is well enough developed. In harsher times people grow up a lot faster than we today do in the West. Just take a look at the Middle Ages.

[@siriangvik8036]

Ellie took care of Joel for an entire winter while he was on the verge of death. After that she's earned the right to make her own decisions.

[@whitecreamymilk8436]

@@byron4545 being older in a different situation doesnt make you more mature. It makes you more scarred. Mentally hurt and traumatized =/= mature.

[@byron4545]

@@whitecreamymilk8436 Have you actually played the game? Ellie acts very mature. And being less mollycoddled does not mean being more traumatized.

[@whitecreamymilk8436]

@@byron4545 acting mature =/= maturity.

[@LordOfAllusion]

As far as “the sexualization” of women in the witcher, Geralt is just as sexualized as anyone else. The women in the game are ultra-powerful witches who are self-actualized, independent, and way more important than Geralt in every way. In fact, if you try to wrangle a 3 way between Triss and Yen, you get a cutscene where they tease you, tie you up, and leave you there for being a pig.

[@samwizgamgie3rd828]

Actually, the witches are a lot older that you think, magic makes them sexy. Hey, if magic is real, every women would like Triss or better. For men, more colorful explosions.

[@NeostormXLMAX]

Funny no one mentioned this but both gerelt and yen are both over 100 years old so of course he is wiser than joel etc

[@yorusoisj]

Yes, Exactly this! To think otherwise would do Yen, Triss, Kira, Shani and Fringilla (among others) a disservice. Each of them are not only independent, but also consensually sexual with Gerelt. In all of his power, he never once pursues each of them, and is always responding to their flirtations. And not because the women are portrayed as nyphomaniacs (which is funny because there are actual succubi in the franchise), but because they own their sexuality and are mature enough to not be ashamed of it. Hell, in the books, all of the women in the Lodge, and each of the Witcher, teach a young Ciri about sexual agency, which is why it is so heartbreaking when she spends time riding with the Rats at some point to stay hidden.

[@sophiejones7727]

I would agree with that, if Cirri's clothes didn't expose her bosom. I don't mind fanservice, but there are certain characters it should be applied to and certain characters it really shouldn't be applied to. It undermines the idea that the player is supposed to treat her like a daughter. Since the game has a definite perspective (Geralt's), the only characters who should be sexualized are the ones whom Geralt finds sexy. He's not supposed to find Cirri sexy, obviously. That goes against the whole idea of him as her surrogate father. So why am I seeing her side-boob again? it's minor, but it almost broke my immersion a few times. Geralt is sexualized, but none of the other male characters are. This is of course because it's from Geralt's perspective, and he's not into guys. Because we are in his head, we experience things as he does: so we experience his sexuality just as he would. This fact however makes it even more strange that Cirri is sexualized even a little bit: they clearly paid attention to who should and shouldn't be sexualized.

[@yorusoisj]

@@sophiejones7727 Gerrlt didnt sexualize her though. Ciri offered offered an explanation as to why she (purposefully) loosened and extra button herself: To distract stupid men in conversation when negotiating pay and her abilities. She implied that she would make more and volunteer or withhold information at her discretion because of it. She also says that she begrudgingly does this (implying sexism) but keeps to the code as a Witcher, to use all advantages in her field to her advantage.

[@TitaniumSeraph]

I'm a big fan of the "daddening" of games. I feel a lot more emotionally engaged. Same goes if its a mom. Using the parent figure is such a great way for video games to go.

[@Saturn-uz6jc]

I don't agree with your point about Joel at all. Psychotically possessive and entirely ego driven?? Lmao what?? Ellie knew Joel was lying in the final scene. She knew. She didn't want to die, really. Even for the greater good. Am I really expected to believe this girl who has gone through all the struggles she has is naive enough to believe that? The whole game is about show casing how shit humanity has become and how shit the world is, whilst juxtaposing a growing bond between these two characters. Neither of them want to sacrifice what they have to save the world they live in. It's not worth it for either of them. Sure, it's a selfish decision, but it's a decision they definitely both make, and a completely human one. I doubt most people would give up the only person they love to save a post-apocalyptic world. Joel was never psychotically possessive. That's an incredible overstatement. Sure he was possessive, but never more than a normal father would be. And I don't see how someone who derives their whole meaning in life from taking care of others is ego driven. Is being a father ego driven? Or wanting to be a father?

[@princessthyemis]

YES! THANK YOU!!! I AGREE SO HARD WITH YOUR DISAGREEMENT!!! saying Joel is psycotically obsessed does not fit him AT! ALL! thank you!!!!!! High five!!!!!!!!

[@baptistelasbats3952]

Yes, I think too that painting Joel as completely psychotic and possessiv is over simplifying the situation in "he's selfish, he's a dick" and not really looking at what's inside the game.

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

He wants to be a father but doesn't care at all about what his daughter wants. He kills an entire resistance and the only hope for humanity, not for her sake. He did for him, because he couldn't live without his surrogate again. Not because of her.

[@baptistelasbats3952]

@@blitzkriegdragon013 the heroism of the Fireflies is more than heavily debatable. Yes he saves her because he would never accept to lose a daughter, but you can't call him selfish for this. Every altruistic action is done by and for the person who does it. Gandhi saved others because he believed it was his duty and that he could never have looked himself in a mirror again if he hadn't tried to help, not for the others. Eventually, everything comes back to you, same for Joel, you can't call him selfish

[@baptistelasbats3952]

@@blitzkriegdragon013 the heroism of the Fireflies is more than heavily debatable. Yes he saves her because he would never accept to lose a daughter, but you can't call him selfish for this. Every altruistic action is done by and for the person who does it. Gandhi saved others because he believed it was his duty and that he could never have looked himself in a mirror again if he hadn't tried to help, not for the others. Eventually, everything comes back to you, same for Joel, you can't call him selfish

[@youtubevoice1050]

Joel is an adult with experience about the dangers of this new world, that isn't a place where kids like Ellie easily survive. So, what you are calling possessive, even toxic, is none else than perfectly reasonable behavior for a parent given the circumstances. Ciri, on the other hand, is an adult that can look after herself and has made her own decisions for quite some time. The situations are quite different.

[@marvelousmeh2077]

You forget the fact that Geralt experienced far worst things than Joel and the world of the Witcher is far dangerous than TLOU. But Geralt doesn't try to manipulate or lie to Ciri's face in order to control her. There are clear difference between the two but there are a lot of similarities too that you completely ignore. Kids like Ellie who grow up in an apocalyptic or harsh world are more resilient that Joel because they grew up in a harsh environment. Ellie lost as much as Joel did and despite her age it's clear that she can defend herself and make decisions for herself if you played the game. LOL. The fact is Geralt is a better dad not because of his past and experience which we already stablish that compare to Joel, Geralt has been through way more tragedy than him. But because he doesn't try to control his daughter.

[@RandomPerson-yq1qk]

@@marvelousmeh2077 Another point to make here is that this does not mean that Joel is a worse character from a story perspective. TLOU 1 makes it quite clear that Joel's choice and manipulation/lies would cause conflict between him and Ellie. While it has many aspects of a happy ending, the ending does not feel all that happy.

[@derekpederson1952]

Yeah, weird argument that Sage makes comparing to The Last of Us because some of the decisions you make with respect to Ciri (wrecking Avallac'h's lab, letting her meet with the Lodge of Sorceresses on her own) are decisions you would never make if she were a child.

[@channelcousin8495]

Thought I heard “milfgard” around 15:39. Either girlfriendreviews has ruined me or I was already ruined.

[@eelboy9017]

Even in the subtitles its Milfgard. xD

[@omarsameh7103]

There are no accidents - Master Oogway

[@ThatOneGuy7550]

"The Daddening" is a very apt title.

[@tobeornottobe5611]

The Last of Us' ending is my absolute favorite angle of the whole story. Not enough games have a morally questionable main protagonist, you're either a good guy or a random soldier devoid of all ambiguous thinking and emotions. But not in TLoU, you *don't* make the good guy decision at the end. Your journey, wrought with so much death and misery, all the sacrifice that was given by Ellie, Joel, and other characters amount to nothing... Simply because a tired, violent, old man who loathes the world and himself; Couldn't let go of his grief and move on with his life.

[@princessthyemis]

This is really fascinating, but I disagree in calling Joel "psycotically obsessed", that makes him sound TOO Evil in my opinion!!

[@fildariusv7045]

Well I mean he has killed people didn't need to and lied to Ellie, damaging for a long time their relationship, as she never totally tbelieved in what Joel told her

[@fildariusv7045]

Alexander Supertramp Yeah, but try to understand the young girl who had made the mature choice to save the world, even if she was going to die, she literally wanted that! There is a delicate point between doing what you gotta do to survive and protect your loved ones and being psycotically monster that is willing to sacriface humanity's only chance of survival

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

Alexander Supertramp the lie isn’t what makes him psychotic. It’s the whole murdering an entire hospital full of people and killing an unarmed woman in cold blood thing

[@erikm6689]

I feel like you massivley misinterpreted the statements made on fatherhood, morality, cynicism and idealism in The Last of Us.

[@NidhinMohammad96]

That Witcher analysis bit literally brought me to tears. I knew this game had a very nuanced story and narrative progression, but never thought this relationship would be such that. Then again, I never got to finish the game - I was only able to spent some 40 hrs in the Witcher 3 world.

[@gorddude]

If you really want to weep about this more check out Like Stories of Old's video on the Witcher 3. This vid was great, but something about LSoO's voice and how he weaves in powerful music into his vids makes me cry almost every time.

[@NidhinMohammad96]

@@gorddude That video is pretty good. There is a lot to learn from how Witcher portrays compassion and analytical thinking for the betterment of our immediate and distant surroundings. Thank you so much for redirecting me to a new amazing KZbinr.

[@georgemackintosh6247]

"Joel reveals himself to be psychotically possessive and entirely ego-driven." That's what you got from the ending?? Wow. What I, and everyone I've ever talked to about it, got from the ending was a meditation on the agonisingly impossible choices we are subjected to in our lives, and the effects of trauma on the choices we make. Joel is a broken man, 20 years in mourning for his daughter who was murdered by a group not much different than the Fireflies. When he meets Elly, he finally is able to become whole again and provide both of them with something they have been yearning for: a family. When they finally reach the Fireflies, they purposely ignore the wishes of Joel to wake up Elly and tell her the risks and instead keep her in a coma, denying her the choice of making that sacrifice or not of her own volition, forcibly taking away her agency as a person. No, Joel isn't the good guy at the end in doing what he does, but he does so for reasons that any parent can understand and would likely do themselves. Like holy shit, how did you fuck it up THAT bad?

[@Alex13501]

Yea, really weird, this guys work is usually good, but this is huge oooff, i mean just 5 minutes research about this games ending gives you all the info. He made it sound like it was black/white situation and thats simply, a lie.

[@chi8514]

my response to his nonsense First of all cut, your bullshit. don't know where you get the idea that somehow being nurturing and caring means you won't use violence. masculinity has always been nurturing it is like you forget that one of the aspects of hypermasculine men is that they are also protectors. don't know how you protect something u don care about. even in nature, the most dangerous animals are not the males but the females with cubs to protect so quit your bullshit. Even in the most masculine aspect of society the military the most decorated officer who risked their lives time and again for their fellow soldiers have always come from large families with them usually being the oldest kid most of the time and they transfer that desire to protect their sibling to their squadmates. your nonsense about how masculinity is just for violence sake is just that bullshit. men's role has always been defined as protectors and providers of the tribe you don't put your life down for shit you don't care about masculinity is nurturing stop spreading lies

[@kaldwinpoison771]

The ending is supposed to be different for everyone father or not

[@alexoelkers2292]

yeah the creator of this video clearly isn't a father because the reality is there isn't a father in the world that wouldn't of killed each and every one of those doctors to get their daughter back.

[@maevemurphy7902]

When he said that, I was instantly taken out of the video lmfao what a bad take.

[@LoveDoctorNL]

The two are not comparable on the level you think. The two daughter figures differ in age and thus Joël takes responsibility and saves Elly, especially seen in the light of a document you can find in the hospital detailing that other subjects were operated on and did not survive. Joel is acting out or responsibility at least as much as selfishness. He’s not taking away the power to act from Elly as in a functioning dad-daughter relationship it’s understood that a adolescent cannot give consent to die in search of a possible cure.

[@blitzkriegdragon013]

Ellie has had to grow up pretty fast. She is shown to be a capable survivalist, negotiator, and soldier. It's not nice to say, but Joel needed to let go of the idea that Ellie was Sarah. Joel didn't want to live without Sarah again, that's why he killed the fireflies. It was never for Ellie. If it was, he wouldn't have lied to her like he did. Joel took away Ellie's purpose.

[@narrowstone5363]

More so it's foolish to believe a teenager cannot give consent. Yes they're easily swayed but they ultimately are capable of ignoring the persuasion to chose what they want to do. Everyone has been a teen before, but it seems they forget that a teenager is practically a miniature adult that's more prone to mistakes

[@BM-wf9uf]

I was so amused by the amount of people who screwed up their ending to the Witcher and got Ciri killed lol. Good video, my favourite aspect of the Witcher was how it conveyed how many layers of grey there are to people and why they choose to do what they do.

[@jakeekiss]

The main issue I have here is that Ellie, though she might have agreed to do the procedure, explicitly is not given the choice by the Fireflys, and Joel knows this. She nearly drowns and is taken immediately into surgery. She has no idea she has to die to save humanity and the Fireflys weren't going to give her the chance to say no (why they don't want Joel to even see her). This complicates Joel's decision quite a bit. does it mean he's not acting out of pain and need for her? No, but it's not quite as cut and dry. Ciri knows her options in advance of the ending. Ellie doesn't. Likewise, I wasn't convinced the Fireflys could do what they said for certain. And why would Joel be? The world constantly reinforces that plans go wrong, and if Ellie is the one shot they have, there's no *for sure* to a vaccine. Especially when the notion is introduced at the 11th hour right before they kill her.

[@JonathanMandrake]

Yeah, and Ellie thought she was going to live after creating the cure, so she literally didn't consent, or at least not while knowing all conditions. If your daughter thought giving blood would help cure cancer, and accepts that, and you find out they are working on killing her to find that cure, and the only realistic way to save her life is killing them, then the right thing is to kill them and save the daughter. And even worse, it is extremely likely that the Fireflies would keep the vaccine for themself and create a tyranny through this vaccine and the power this gives them.

[@TheSuperRatt]

Joel doesn't give Ellie the choice either, though. He actually goes so far as to take that choice away forever.

[@lowkey6134]

@@TheSuperRatt you clearly didn't understand his comment

[@jonnyso1]

I think you jumped to some conclusion in The Last of Us. Also, the plot gave Geralt an option. If Ciri was uncounsious about to be sacrificed to save the world, what do you think geralt would do ?

[@Grimmlocked]

Kill every last one of them

[@Naa45702]

Grimmlocked indeed. Or at minimum let her get healthy enough to make the choice. Let’s not even talk about what Yen would do.

[@marvelousmeh2077]

If Ciri would have glad do that then I'm sure Geralt will respect her choice. The fact is Joel is selfish and will never respect Ellie's choice in that regard. Ellie literally told Joel that she would have wanted to sacrifice herself but Joel said he would do it all over again. I mean, how selfish can he be.

[@pbmoontague]

you're obviously not a father. The instinct to keep your kid alive even if it means destroying the world around you is a real thing, and it's hard to control at times.

[@Lily-xd1tg]

peter montague I’m not a father, being a woman obviously lol but I can’t even understand it. But I guess I shouldn’t underestimate my dad when he says he would die for me and my sister

[@pbmoontague]

@@Lily-xd1tg he would, and it's not easy to understand until you have a kid of your own. I sure didn't understand until I had a child.

[@byron4545]

@@Lily-xd1tg Dying for your children is morally acceptable behaviour. Destroying the world for your children is not.

[@whitecreamymilk8436]

@@byron4545 when everyone is out to destroy your children then killing the world to protect them is completely morally acceptable.

[@byron4545]

@@whitecreamymilk8436 A global self defense szenario does not apply here. There are plenty of people in the world, that are not out to destroy your children.

[@almightypush9767]

I don’t know where it’s coming from. But as a woman without a father; seeing that stuff actually helped and made me dream of having a good husband and a family. A father and daughter relationship is unique; a daughter can can dwelve in her emotions under her father’s protection and unique care. With a father a woman learns their worth and that she can face the world. A woman learns wisdom, dignity, and how to listen to her emotions and instincts from her mother.I wish I had this with my father..maybe could’ve been different for me. But it only added dreams for me to have. I’m glad the father/son relationship was experienced in God of war. Seeing a Father and son duo is just as magical. And needed; many guys don’t have a father figure, many fathers aren’t good. Good video

[@nocomber]

You are valuable. There is a Father in heaven who loves you and is unashamed of you. He's not confined to the worldly definition of a father, who is flawed by nature. But He is perfect in kindness and mercy. Have a great day, Faith.

[@almightypush9767]

Joel S. You’re very kind. Thank you

[@LUC1ANOS]

Witcher is based on books from 90s where Geralt is already stepfather so they really don't follow some daddy trend...

[@speedy7460]

I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of Joel's choice at the end. The fireflies had been shown themselves to be careless in their research, and Joel likely believes that they won't be able to produce a cure. Even if there is a chance, the risk isn't worth it. Ellie's sacrifice could all be for nothing, so Joel does what he thinks is right. But where the first game is mainly about Joel's choices, the next one will focus on Ellie's, so I guess we'll have to wait until then to see if that game will frame Joel's decision as noble or selfish. Or both.

[@tomatari]

yes, that is true, but killing all the people? doctors? going through the battlefield to make a point is just bad. but the biggest problem is that noone asks ellie. fireflies want to sacrifice her, joel wants to safe her. but what about her? what would she do with all the information you as player have? all of them are assholes.

[@Whovian1029]

Joel chooses to save Ellie because he loves her, just like any parent would. He probably gave no thought to the viability of a vaccine and was only thinking about Ellie. His decision was both selfish and selfless. He knows that Ellie would have chosen to sacrifice herself, but he also doesn't want her to lose the life she could have.

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

Bhiner1029 exactly. This rationalization is BS. He didn’t have time to analyze that aspect he just made the split second decision that he wanted more. Selfish and selfless.

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

You Didn't See Graphite, Because It's Not There are we gonna talk about the fact that druckmann and his team EXPLICITLY said his choice was selfish?...in several interviews. And the fact that you think there’s a completely right answer when the choice is sacrifice a potential cure or sacrifice your surrogate daughter? Oh and he had every opportunity to tell the truth but continued to lie for two years until Ellie found out herself, and he STILL considered lying again until he realized she knew some version of the truth 😬 a true hero

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

You Didn't See Graphite, Because It's Not There you’re over-explaining yourself man lmaooo. Of course this goes to show the greatness of naughty dog as storytellers, they made a compelling moral dilemma. But truth is we don’t know for sure. Joel eliminated all chances of a possible cure that day, at least as far as we know. Maybe he was completely right. Maybe he was completely wrong. That’s the dilemma. That’s why the story works. If it were so cut and dry, it wouldn’t be a good game or have a renowned ending. But let’s examine what we know, Joel did this to save Ellie, not because he didn’t believe in the cure. Remember, he never questioned it at the hospital. He just asked about the procedure and was against it as soon as he realized it’d be terminal. There could’ve been a 100 percent success chance and Joel would’ve done it anyway. He literally says he’d do it again in TLOU 2, despite what consequences it brought.

[@Triskaan]

If you havent yet, you should read the Witcher books, they are insanely good, and probably much more subtle than you'd expect. :)

[@Exel3nce]

one reads both sides, people who say its either bad or good

[@Triskaan]

@@Exel3nce I honestly yet to read people who have read all books and say it's bad. I"ve read people saying they gave up after the short-stories first two volumes, but no one who's read it all and came out disapointed... One thing to note though, the english translation is very poor. i've read them in french and english and yeah, there's no debate here, if you can read them in any other language than english, go for it !

[@Xtoff]

How many Trans POC are in this series about Medieval Poland?

[@Exel3nce]

@Geralt of Trivia Art And Artist. Try to Disconnect them otherwise its your loss

[@Exel3nce]

@@Triskaan not all of them ofc because Why would you read a "bad series"

[@seanrandolph2059]

i feel like the way you cut to Kratos serveral times as being an example of a character who is a brutal cliche who changed after becoming a father isnt accurate due to him having always been a struggling/remorseful father in his first three games. his wife and daughter were arguably the crux of his character and those brief cuts gave me the impression that you may not have actally played the games? Great video though, TW3 really does deserve the praise!

[@seana3012]

While I think that both the Witcher and the Last of Us are great stories. I think they are very different stories and you’re not cutting Joel enough slack. TLOU is about people and it is tragically real. The ending may not send the most inspiring message but it shows how real of a person Joel is with some tragic faults. Whereas Geralt is perfect. Great fighter and father. So Joel having a tragic fault only adds to the whole story

[@FrogLehane]

Geralt is not perfect thou, he is the person you make him.

[@jackjager8790]

Geralt perfect? have you been paying attention to the story?

[@jerryos356]

I just don’t see why the new God of War isn’t talked about more in it’s powerful rejection of Kratos’s past actions, redefining a god of war into a true man, and the incredibly meaningful assertion that we must be better than those who came before us. Honestly one of the most meaningful and inspiring stories I’ve ever seen, a truly unforgettable experience.

[@SaberRexZealot]

You missed the best game dad of all... Kazuma Kiryu

[@legacymse7095]

*dramatic zoom on his face* NANI ?

[@kartikayysola]

Goddamn right. It's why I love the shit outta Yakuza 3 so damn much. You get to watch Kiryu be the kind, nurturing man he that he so wanted to be and his daughter Haruka start to grow into a responsible adult in her own right.

[@noneofyourbusiness4616]

Except for the part where he left Haruka alone with Saejima even after he tells Saejima he noticed the dude was acting like he was having a hard time not raping her due to just getting out of prison.

[@kartikayysola]

@@noneofyourbusiness4616 I always figured it was Kiryu taking a calculated risk to figure out who exactly he was dealing with. There's no way in hell he'd have missed that tattoo when he and Haruka dressed his wounds, and he's been pulled into way too many yakuza conflicts for me to believe he wouldn't at least be suspicious of someone in prison garb with a full back piece just washing up on their shore coincidentally. He was also right around the corner, and I'd be willing to bet he'd have offed Saejima right then and there had he not gotten a hold of himself.

[@giabread]

I never viewed Joel as "psychotically possessive", how ON EARTH did you reach THAT conclusion? He was a guy who got attached to a child after losing another child. He was a normal person. The main difference between him and Geralt - and mostly between CIRI AND ELLIE, is that Ciri was an adult making an adult, conscious decision to go and fight to the death if necessary. Ellie was a child that got lied to by adults that she'd undergo a medical procedure but the adults actually planned to kill her during that procedure. Ciri had the agency of an adult making her own decisions, Ellie was a child and had little agency, so Joel, THE ADULT, made the decision for her.

[@FictionRaider007]

There are a lot of "Dads" as video game protagonists and - perhaps predictably - so few representations of "Moms". I think one of the most interesting examples of it is the Telltale Walking Dead games. Lee is an early example of the player being put in the role of a father figure. Then it comes full circle in the Final Season of the series with Clementine becoming a mother to AJ. Motherhood is a topic in video games that go completely ignored for the most part, but I found it was such a different experience for me playing Clementine trying to raise a kid compared to playing Lee. Lee was focused on protecting Clementine and teaching her to harden herself against the harsh world. Meanwhile Clementine was focused on trying to teach AJ empathy and prevent him from becoming just another monster.

[@BrandonCase]

Ellie is a child. Joel accepts the roll of her father. It’s not “psychotically possessive” for an adult caregiver to keep a child from being killed “for the greater good.” Or more specifically, for a chance that *maybe* her death will result in a cure. Instead, he chooses to save her AND shoulder the weight of guilt and responsibility her life cost. I don’t agree with him about lying to her, but it shows he loved her more than he loved himself and his own integrity. I wouldn’t go so far as calling someone who supports killing the people they love for the “greater good” a monster… but I wouldn’t want to be know them and doubt very much that they understand what it means to love.

[@robchuk4136]

Really liked how you show that that each person they meet is a foil in specific way. This is sophisticated writing that games are rarely good at. Would love more videos on other games that have great writing (or that blow it)

[@youtubevoice1050]

Was Joel selfish? His newfound purpose in life was to protect Ellie. That's exactly what he did.

[@dwightschrute3721]

I was literally about to start the final mission of the Witcher 3 when I saw this video ( I was on KZbin looking up xp grinds so that I could get to level 34 and wear the Mastercrafted Wolven Armor cause I want to look cool for cutscenes) and I’m just blown away by how they left those subtle clues on how to treat Ciri through the other fathers. Brilliantly done.

[@coffey611]

How does such brilliant analysis and comparison not have more recognition? Adore your content bro. Keep it up

[@ScantaniouslyCombust]

The choices with Geralt and Ciri were sometimes not so obvious. I would argue "You don't have to be good at everything" is actually not bad advice. A child constantly putting everything on a pedestal as something that must be achieved at the highest level is both exhausting and unrealistic. But i guessed it is framed in that Ciri wants or needs to be good at controlling her powers. Sometimes being a parent is difficult and you don't know what is the right thing to do or say.

[@victoriansteam1562]

Agree. I got the bad ending but I'm still convinced the choices i made (at leat judging from the lines i could choose) would be good parenting. I have a pretty disinterested father tho so i might be wishing for mire protection and advice in a father figure which might leed me to overdoing it idk

[@reidwallace4258]

Your talking about the death of a little girl maybe saving lives, and treating him like a monster for his choices... Which I guess is valid, bit that's some ussr lever 'for the greater good' bro...

[@sandrobsnake]

There is no "greater good" if is based on evil...

[@OrangeLightnings]

Regarding The Last of Us, I think you miss some of Ellie's perspective. Joel, regardless of whether the Fireflies could successfully develop and distribute a cure, would kill everyone in the hospital. Similarly, Ellie would give her life in either circumstance. In isolation, is the choice that SHE is making really one a parent or guardian SHOULD leave to her? Ellie has a deep guilt for all the suffering that she couldn't do anything to stop (from Riley to Sam). She spends the entire game asking WHY nobody else could step up and make the noble sacrifice for humanity - even as each and every chapter reveals that no one action can save the world. Joel and Ellie make character accurate choices, but I don't think Joel is out of bounds for annihilating everyone at the hospital. Joel only becomes everything you describe when he lies to her INSTEAD of talking to her about the choices they'd both made. That manipulation leaves Ellie unreconciled and truly alone, and it leaves Joel in control but disconnected from her.

[@paulkyle]

That is the perspective I wholeheartedly agree with. In the hospital, there was no time for Joel to really think about what is the next step for him and Ellie 'cause the Fireflies decided to procedure Ellie in rush. So both sides made poor choices. I can get why massacre in the Saint Mary's can be justified and thought of as necessary in this case but that not the problem with Joel .It's his selfish lies that rob Ellie of her choice and purpose - immunity. That is further emphasized in the Part II when we find out Joel suppressed Ellie into hiding her immunity and forcing her to constantly act even around people who she deeply cares about and trusts (gasmask on - from the Finding strings chapter). Ellie didn't even got to deal with the whole "The Firefles are gone" affair and think about what would be the other way she can help the world with her immunity. That's how I think he harmed Ellie in the the most sever way

[@Chanur2394]

Just want to share my agreement the TLOU's ending is deeper than just a twist that toxifys the growth Joel has had through the game. Lost of factors at play, the most important being that Ellie is still only 14. TLOU 2 having an adult Ellie I'm sure will explore the differences in a more equal relationship.

[@thatdudewelove8498]

this comment did not age well lol

[@Chanur2394]

@@thatdudewelove8498 Haha whoops

[@MrMetalStrike]

Great video as always but I just noticed one thing about the whole Joel Last of Us ending. I do agree that he did act selfish and that he didn't let her make her own choice, but the thing I realized is that almost every single person who played that game -- if they had a choice in that ending --would still probably choose the ending that happened. I mean, the lead character doesn't have to act toward the objectively right choice in order for the game/story to be impactful. I kinda prefer that there are flaws in the characters in the end. Obviously, the right choice is to let her make her own choice but the beauty of the game is that it makes you question this fact, what you know to be objectively right, and it makes you want to instead be "selfish" and to keep her alive. That's because the game succeeded in making you care for Ellie, so much so that you stand by his decision by the end. He isn't a perfect character, and it isn't a perfect ending, but it doesn't need to be. That one ending can be equally impactful as a multiple-choice ending, like in The Witcher.

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

Everyone choosing it doesn’t make it morally right. It’s a moral study as old as time. Would you sacrifice the world for one person if it were someone you love?

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

You Didn't See Graphite, Because It's Not There is that what the game says? No. It’s fiction. You can’t apply real life science to the fictional parasitic zombie world of TLOU. If the game says there’s a potential cure, that’s what’s happening

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

You Didn't See Graphite, Because It's Not There you’re justifying a decision by someone else without using the logic that the person’s decision was based on...he wasn’t worried about the chance of a cure, just a chance at saving Ellie

[@BioMatic2]

I really have a big using the words " the exact same ending" when from the get go the are some crucial diference. There is a certainty on Ciri being able to stop the white frost and an uncertainty in wether she would die. Meanwhile with Ellie is the oposite, there is a certainty that Ellie will die but an uncertainty about if her death will save the world. Because even if the vaccine is succesful....is still just a vaccine, not a cure. You woulf still have to deal with a world taken over by fungus monsters that are still pretty deadly and with colapse society where people are at each others throats. Then there is also also the diference of age and mental state. Ciri is a young adult that seemingly has though her the decission. Meanwhile Ellie is a teen age thay has experienced on traumatic event after another and is trying find meaning out of it.

[@jindrichdolejs623]

''sheltered all her life'' lol

[@armorfrogentertainment]

Ciri. Sheltered. Yeah, that's not how I'd describe her teenage years of joining a gang and getting caught up in interdimensional political conspiracies.

[@arthurwild6563]

Huh? In the ending where Ciri becomes a Witcher they also show her branching off on her own later.

[@daisymoon4004]

I feel like I did so well in the Witcher 3 because I'm a young woman who had a controlling father. I knew what Ciri needed because it's what i would have needed in her situation. I had so many male friends wind up with Ciri dying and that saddened me so much, because to me it wasn't hard to pick the choices that would help her most, but they all wanted complete control over the game they were playing and the characters within it

[@jamesedwards5216]

Kratos was already a dad in god of war 1-3

[@lucaswibisono1316]

Its just no one barely noticed it for some reason. Until the new GoW just show it right in your face. And show it anywhere, anytime

[@justaguy7831]

I loved this vidio but i kinda disagree, ellie never had a choice she was unconscious and never had a choice to make the fireflies were going to kill her no matter what she chose so joel didnt make take away her decision, he made a decision for her and joel being joel he chose to not let them kill her and i dont honesty think the fireflies were responsible enough to to do this procedure because they immediately want to kill her and not wake her up and run any test, not to mention the fact that when we saw the fireflies shortly before, ellie's was unconscious about to drown and they knock out Joel even though he wasn't a threat, FUCK THE FIREFLIES

[@Comradeduin]

You’re wrong to imply that Ellie doesn’t have agency at he end of TLoU. She plainly does. She realises that Joel is lying to her but chooses to stay anyway.

[@overshottyler]

She suspects at most

[@omarsameh7103]

Did you say the emperor of MILFgard

[@princessthyemis]

Isn't that its name ??

[@irongrin99]

Nilfgaard, but one could dream?

[@horacefairview5349]

"Brutalising of women in the story" Haven't played either game, but I bet over twice as many male characters are 'brutalised' compared to female ones. Violent games mean violence happens to characters - are the female characters supposed to be exempt?

[@chrisblack1658]

I guess the player dismembers male NPCs around a four digit number, and exactly zero female NPCs (not counting Crones, Hags and Bruxae ;) )

[@JanPospisilArt]

@@chrisblack1658 Keira Metz? You can choose to kill her. Anna Henrietta can also die as a result of your choice, as can her sister (pretty brutally). Margarita Laux-Antille gets tortured, as does Sheala de Tancarville, who is later killed by Geralt or Yennefer. From the non named characters there are also female Squirrel warriors (and a named one you can also kill, iirc)

[@letizialanfranco9443]

If we think about a game settled in a medieval Era where you can't kill random npcs (unlike skyrim) whenever you want, but only if the character, and therefore the game, offers you to do it, it's pretty much understandable why. Most hostile npcs are soldiers, outlaws, bandits, werewolves and monsters. You would have preferred to see nilfgaardians recruiting women so there would have been more killing of females? Besides geralt usually hates to hurt women in general directly even if they are the worst scumbag pieces of shit: Keira attacks him first because he insulted her, Sheila asks him to be killed and the crones are killed by ciri. There is only a succubus in novigrad that can be killed in a contract as far as I remember, but you can choose to spair her and make her leave. Geralt itself has a huge sense of chivalry towards women, it's not about the gender politics. In cyberpunk 2077 it has been announced that only main characters and children will be unkillable, if that makes u more comfortable ;)

[@horacefairview5349]

@@letizialanfranco9443 who are you arguing against? I don't think it is bad that men are disproportionately killed in violent games etc. Or that women are generally not, or when they are it is very significant. I just think it is stupid to try and bring a womens opression narrative to this particular field where the disparity in treatment is huge and the complete opposite way. It makes perfect sense for men to be disproportionately the victims of violence in media - Given that males are disproportinately invovled in real life violence today and throughout history.

[@chrissedaka8141]

@Frank Castle Don't give their crtitcal theory nonsense the legitimacy of your responses. As soon as people introduce different types of masculinity (hyper masculinity, toxic masculinity, softened masculinity) they reveal themselves as the deconstrucionist charlatans they are. This whole video examines fatherhood through the feminist lens of self-sacrifice and sublimation of male personhood to the betterment of a daughter character (surrogate or otherwise). It's yet another attack on men, disguised as an objective analysis of narrative tropes. They rarely, if ever, pull this shit with mothers' relationships with their wards; and when they do it's usually to smear sons, or (more often) aggrandize the mother/daughter dynamic. People who decontextualise violence as being an inherently male trait and who view a man having self-interest as "weak" have no business defining fatherhood, good or bad.

[@MeatyGorak]

Peter Kenny is absolutely amazing narrating the audio books! He brings so much life and personality to each character, and I love how he can do different accents for different races.

[@SiMeGamer]

I think there is an important distinction to be made though: the ages of the daughters. In the Witcher the daughter is an adult and thus is capable of making more informed decisions regardless of maturity. In The Last of Us the daughter is too young to be making her own decisions and should be under the care of her parent/guardian. Just because she is mature and capable, doesn't mean she can make good decisions outside of survivalistic ones. I find this extremely important to pay attention to because it changes the dynamic of what fatherhood in in those different contexts. Good video :]

[@JonathanMandrake]

Especially since Ellie thought making the Cure meant she could have a life with Joel afterwards, not die, and the fireflies would keep the cure for themself, if they were ever able to create one, which is almost impossible since there hasn't yet been a vaccine against fungi

[@MsQjoe]

I have just completed a master's thesis on this topic and I think your video nails a lot of points well

[@dmua9551]

Good video, but one minor nitpick is that you keep showing Kratos beating up Zeus in GoW 3 whenever you talk about an over masculine sort of dude, but, in reality, Kratos has always been a super tragic dad figure. I mean, yeah, he's extremely violent, and even starts to go too far with the third game, but as shown at the end of the first game and in spinoffs, he did care about his family and tried to be a father before they died to his own errors And of course, Dad of Boi, or God of War 4, expands upon that by giving an older Kratos a second chance in an entirely new world

[@dmua9551]

That's not really what it does, though. Kratos' actions aren't always portrayed as justified. I mean, yeah, Zeus was a jerk so there weren't any qualms with killing him, but killing the gods as a whole for his own revenge eventually destroyed everything, with the only way back being Kratos literally impaling himself on the blade of olympus, giving hope to the world so maybe they can start fresh, where he never could, until he ended up getting to midgard. He's sympathetic because the world has hurt him in so many ways, but ultimately, his actions caught up to him.

[@dohickey7184]

@charlie freeman You do realise that he was tricked by Ares into killing his famiky right? Immediately after it happens he's on his knees in shock at what he's done and he feels guilty about their deaths which haunt him so much that he jumoed off the top of the highest mountain in Olympus just to free himself from the nightmares he was getting

[@dohickey7184]

@charlie freeman k

[@dmua9551]

I'd say Kratos actively getting tricked into horrible actions and horribly regretting them has a ton of implications on his character, actually. It shows he did care about his family, he had a heart, just, by the time he goes on a godslaying rampage, that heart has been broken and battered by so many things he didn't give any thought to how his actions were going to break the world, until the very last moment.

[@DD-nc3zx]

3 things come out with the daddying theme and people see a trend. But 1000 movies and games come out with the exact same script and nobody see here a trend...why? I feel so bored with what hollywood and the game industry present us.

[@lastminutesavior]

3:19 Difference is Ellie is a kid, and other selfish people want to decide themselves what to do with her (and Joel rightfully won't allow it), whereas Ciri is a grown selfless badass who makes her own decision to save the world.

[@GingerBeard24]

I can't stop thinking how cool that transition is at 0:10 .

[@Alex13501]

I thought, in the end of Last of Us, there was only 10% chance the operation will work or actually, if it even works. They mentioned doing it on other immune ppl and it didnt work either. Atleast, Ellie should have all the information and if they got her consent, then proceed, though i think after everything Joel did for her, he just could not let it happen. You can call it selfish, i call it being human.

[@reedarnold7905]

She also seemed to not know the surgery would kill her! She hasn't consented to that! Calling Joel 'psychopathically possessive' is just bizarre.

[@Whovian1029]

But the point is that Joel would have still stopped the operation even if there was a 100% chance that it would work. He didn't care about that whatsoever.

[@kieranarmstrongproductions4743]

IT DOESNT MATTER! Joel makes it very obvious that he will save Ellie by any means. He doesn’t care if it’s a guarantee he will let the world burn to save her. He’s tired of loss and losing people. In the second game, Ellie literally says she would’ve died for it. And Joel didn’t care about Ellie’s consent, that’s why she hated him after not giving her a voice in the decision either and then lying to her for years

[@erikscottdebie7665]

This one. This was the video that made me subscribe. Well done.

[@Jack-rk7jc]

You're painting Joel as a monster, and that makes me think you missed one of the major thematic points of the game. Yes, he might've doomed mankind, but at what cost? A loved one's life? Is it okay to save humanity even if you have to sacrifice a little girl? That's up to interpretation. But the game explores that. Here's a new one. Is it okay to save the human race if you have to kill a huge amount of them, like 100 million? Sounds a little more gray now. Here's one from a pretty huge movie this year. Is it okay to save the human race if you have to kill half of them? Now that seems monstrous too right? So where's the line? If one end of the spectrum makes you a monster, and the other end of the spectrum makes you a villain, then clearly there is no fairy tale heroic decision to make here. This is why the game is so compelling. As well as infinity war and endgame. There is no way you can pick the right answer, or the wrong one for that matter. Most might think the thanos route is the right way, preserve the entirety of mankind. But you never know until it's *your* loved one that has to make the sacrifice. Once again, where is the line? A loved one, a group of more than 5 people, or when you have to sacrifice any innocent life, even if it's just one person? That's a philosophical question the game brings to light. Yes, fucking over mankind sounds like a monstrous thing to do. But so does sacrificing a little girl. So would killing anybody just to save somebody else. Once again, the situation they're in doesn't have an outcome that doesn't sound "monstrous". In conclusion, it's something to think about. Yes, Joel did lie. And he was being manipulative by lying to Ellie. But everything else around the game sort of justifies this. But that's also up to interpretation. Regardless it was a sort of selfish decision. You might think he was being selfish because of his ego, or that he was being selfish out his love, loss, or paternity towards Ellie. I see it not only as him being selfish, but also being the only person who Ellie has, so he instinctively has a desire to look after her. She's a hurt soul, in a world of many, many of which Joel has done the best job possible to avoid getting close to, but as he fails to distance himself with Ellie, he connects with the humanity in himself and in the world again. Which ironically leads to the decision of abandoning the legacy of the human race. But anyway, I see him making a decision which could've been made for a number of reasons, but at it's core, I think that decision was made for the right reason. Not because he was lonely, or that he missed his daughter, or any sort of power move, but for Ellie. Even if it went against her own wishes. Edit: I love your video though. I've thought a lot about the last of us, but not nearly as much about the witcher 3 as you. So I love some of what you said about TW3

[@mari-hf9xp]

TWD season 1 has been my personal favourite daddening game. Lee is a flawed man who has made mistakes, but devotes everything to Clementine and her safety while she also acts as a moral guide for him and the player. I think it's fair to say that every choice Clementine agrees with is very much "north" on the game's moral compass. She falls into the helpless category (she's what, 9?), but she helps Lee grow just as much as he helps her.

[@DrRoo91]

Telltale did a phenomenal job with TWD Season 1. I felt that the relationship with Lee and Clementine was very well written. Some of the best writing I've seen in a video game.

[@pancheeetee]

I need an entire video just about the witcher, this is amazing and every now and then I came back to watch it. Great work!

[@VexJinks]

Don’t fool yourself; 20 year-olds can barely think for themselves, let alone 14 year-olds. Parents are there to guide their offspring, not just sit idly by.

[@j3en534]

It’s crazy coming back to this and seeing peoples interpretations of Joel with the context of the second game and reactions to it.

[@obi-wankenobi8406]

Ciri had a sheltered childhood, maybe the first 12 but after that... I'm not making this shit up google it if you don't belive me or read the books, but here goes: She loses everybody she had ever loved and sees her childhood burn down in front of her eyes, and gets PTST. Then she learns to kill at the age of 12-13 finding a mother figure and friends only for them to be taken away once again. She lands in a desert where she has to fight for her life and almost dies. Then she joins a gang to survive. Get's kinda lesbian raped by a fellow gang member and suffers some kind of Stockholm syndrome. Sees her gang (friends at this point) killed brutally infront of her eyes (her eyelids were literary held open) while getting mocked by the killer. Is drugged and forced to figth in a arena to death. Escapes and gets her scar, in the process almost losing her life again. Goes crazy and has a killing spree for revenge. Gets blackmailed into having a kid so she can return to her own world. Forced to have sex with her great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather. Escapes from that world. Is almost raped, killed and eaten by an old man. Accidentaly brings the black death to her world. She bargains for her mother figures life offering her's in return. Is rejected and almost forcefully impregnated. Geralt saves both of them only to be stopped by Emhyr. Yen and Geralt are almost forced to comit suicide by Emhyr. Only survived because Ciri almost has a mental breakdown. Emhyr abondens his idea to fuck and impregnate her daugther. Geralt and Yen kinda die in a race riot, it's complicated. The island of Avallac'h is probably a metafor or Ciri finally losing her mind and coping with their death. Pretty fucked up if you asked me. Why my parents allowed me to read it at 14 years old is still a mystery to me. Probably beacaose books are good for you or something.

[@HelenaCross]

I kinda love this whole trend of older characters and exploring ideas of parenthood and the relationship changes and so on. I never realized how many games that I’ve played utilized this dynamic (to great effect). I wonder if we will get the same sort of treatment for heroines as well? There’s probably a few already, but none that spring immediately to mind.

[@SaddenedSoul]

I really appreciate your analysis of The Last of Us's structure, especially in regards to how the various episodes contextualize Joel's ultimate decision. I had never considered that even though, when framed in such a way, it's totally obvious: each character is one perspective on that choice between selfishness and selflessness, and Joel has to reckon with those options. I do disagree somewhat with the label of Joel as "psychotic." I am not sure how much he is actually cognizant of his reasons for saving Ellie (perhaps they are entirely self-absorbed), but, in doing so, he defends Ellie's right to life. Ellie's decision to sacrifice herself is not out of altruism; she suffers from survivor's guilt and feels that her death is the only way to balance out the deaths of the people she knew. In robbing Ellie of this choice, Joel gives her the opportunity to rediscover (or just plain discover) a reason to live. Joel's single-minded survival drive ("No matter what, you keep finding something to fight for") overpowers Ellie's death drive. Now, this does not necessarily excuse Joel for what he does, either lying or controlling. But I do feel that perhaps Druckmann is critical of her reasons for the choice she would have made. Joel's compromised character in some ways may allow Ellie's character to be restored--which I think will culminate in a true schism in the sequel since Ellie could very well reject Joel. But that's speculation at this point, lol.

[@Twitchy_McExorcism]

One line of dialogue shared by both games drew this connection for me. In the prologue of TLoU, Joel foreshadows exactly what kind of person he is by saying "Don't do this to me" as his freshly-shot biological daughter is bleeding out. I was like "Dude, it is _not_ about you!" When Ciri is about to Do The Thing at that tower place at the end, one line Geralt can say is "Don't do this to me." Had the same thought as I picked a more encouraging, accepting option.

[@jon-umber]

Just that small portion of dialogue at 17:14 makes me tear up again. Shows how strongly an impact Witcher 3 had on me. Such a fantastic game, with great characters and a compelling story. It's a masterpiece, imo.

[@OoXLR8oO]

Good video overall, even if I disagree with some of the points made. I would love to see how motherhood in games, like in Detroit, compares to fatherhood.

[@user-hv1nw2et3f]

Another game that's similar to the Last of Us is Lisa the painful, another great game that makes you question your Main characters action.

[@henrique88t]

Yeah, the empress ending is the one truly fitting the game narrative. She can only become a witcher if Geralt doesn't take her to Emhyr (or Nilfgaard loses the war). It is the ONLY thing that changes between the good ending decisions. If she meets Emhyr and gets to choose, she'll invariably choose to become an empress. If we devoid her of choice (in order to get witcher Ciri), we're sort of being manipulative and betraying what the game asks of us. To be honest though, I didn't take her to Emhyr in my first playthrough because it seemed to reinforce the "you're a mission and I've got to deliver you like some cargo", so I think that they might not have done it with the clearest direction.

[@TheHawksEyeYT]

Yeah that decision was always conflicting to me because Emhyr is a dick and Ciri always seemed to prefer a free life as a witcher but like you said she chooses to become the empress so im not sure anymore

[@Devilbless]

Both brilliantly portrayed "dad" moments, but The Last of Us struck a much stronger chord with me, mostly I believe because the situation and its conclusion, together with the lack of options in it, allowed us to see Joel as a character and his choice as the epitome of it. I loved the witcher 3, but The Last of Us gave us a seriously flawed protagonist, and it showed masculinity's perceived strengths as ultimately a path that could lead to disaster, both for society at large and to their closer relationships, which is exactly why the ending ends with such a somber tone.

[@cocchinololman1436]

Amazing video, great analysis have several playthroughs on the witcher 3 under my belt and still never noticed that Geralt through the story is surround by fathers to

[@ManfredoStagnoGD]

First! Ah! Love your channel man!

[@lowerysdumplingcookingchannel]

When Joel missed every shot in that alley... I felt that.

[@kizzyneetyan]

I'd love a second/sequel video on those gender roles, btw. I like how you break down everything here, and would be interesting to see you expand on the ideas you discuss at the very end. :)

[@thekrakenexperiment280]

I recently learned about a really influential manga turned movie franchise from the 70s called Lone Wolf and Cub. It’s about a gruff shogun that’s really good at killing who travels Japan with his son. I feel like the title “Lone Wolf and Cub” would be a great name for this sub genre of stories since it says everything you need to know in the title. Also, while I mostly see these stories in video games, I do occasionally see them in movies. Logan, Blood Father, and Leon the Professional are a few that come to mind.

[@aberrantcow]

The other important thing to remember about the last of us is that the Fireflies never gave Ellie a choice either. It’s clear that Ellie didn’t know that when they put her under for surgery that she was going to die. In the Witcher, Ciri knows the consequences for her actions and is in a position to make her own decision as an adult woman. I’m not saying that what Joel did was right but the Fireflies are equally guilty as well.

[@PK-MegaLolCaT]

and anti father should be more than just a contrast. a good villain or monster should tell you something about the hero... not just make the hero look good.

[@carlosanthony4972]

I don't think these are two games that need to be compared while the choice at the end of The Last of Us is entirely Joel's and the player has no choice in the matter. The Witcher 3 in fact takes the exact opposite approach not only in the ending but nearly all of the major choices in Geralt's life throughout all of The Witcher 3 are decided by the player and what Geralt want is of little concern seeing as you decide what Geralt wants . But more than that the difference in the level of how capable each of the daughters is is vast. While Ellie is shown to be capable she is still very much a child and very reliant upon Joel to an extent that Siri has never been shown to be at least in the games. Ciri is an adult while Ellie is child the way you glossed over this fact make sure comparison. I can complete understanding the games invoking similar feelings in you but the actual events and how they each game handled the final choice at the end and the context around that choice is completely different and to make a video comparing the two endings without first thoroughly exploring that context is missing the point of both games not just their endings.

[@carlosanthony4972]

Also the game let you try to be an overbearing father to Ciri but seeing as she's an adult and you don't have anywhere near as much authority over her as you have over Ellie when you're playing is Joel it doesn't work and leads to the worst ending

[@Kinestezja]

In the Witcher's case it's just the source material. Geralt being Ciri's "dad" was an important plot in the books and the game is a semi-continuation of these, so the parent-plot was an obvious choice. Story director said they didn't do this earlier because they felt they wasn't ready yet.

[@paulmooney4654]

"He gets to dress like a samurai and nobody minds" What are you on about? Geralt looks nothing like a samurai, almost all of the armour in the game is designed to let a witcher be mobile enough to dodge attacks from large monsters. Witcher armour isn't similar to samurai or knight armour, the idea is to be able to dodge blows as well as absorb them.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Samurai armor = lamellar Witcher armor = Mostly chainmail

[@Debble]

Tbh getting the good ending in the witcher made me feel like i will be the best parent ever someday. It was so beautiful

[@aroccoification]

As a wise shark once said.... "I never knew my father"

[@JoshuaFagan]

The interactivity distinct to videogames can open up so many artistic possibilities when you use it to challenge players instead of giving into their power fantasies. (Although The Last of Us, interestingly, does the inverse: interactivity is taken away from you at the end, sealing Joel's fate.)

[@keomafernandes7442]

And here I go again playing the witcher one more time.

[@Sgt-Wolf]

"ahhh shit here we go again"

[@ceceezz]

The father part is something that gives a character well, more character.