The Worst Treated Third Party in Smash

[@Neoxon619]

Regarding voice lines, they changed it because Roger Craig Smith is a big-name unionized actor & Nintendo didn't want to pay for him to record new lines (as Smash Ultimate was a non-union production), so they pulled from archived Generations lines & only paid Roger the bare minimum residuals.

[@ThatBluDude]

Understandable I suppose (ignoring the fact Nintendo is a multi-billion dollar corporation) but of all the RCS lines available, why did they have to pick the dumbest one? "SoNiC sPeEd!" is so dorky.

[@DragoXArt]

Basically Nintendo makes another sucky decision on top of the mountain of sucky decisions

[@jamiegioca9448]

@@ThatBluDude I often wonder why they didn't change it to "Sorry, gotta run!" from the 2016 Olympics in Smash Ultimate, it was right there

[@orangeslash1667]

@@jamiegioca9448 To get Sonic over with as soon as possible and move on to other characters.

[@brytilaar]

They should have changed his 2nd death KO Sound to "It's not over yet!" from Rio 2016 Olympic Games.

[@jimsface]

Shadow would get radical highway, not city escape

[@boo4407]

Yeah

[@boydixonentertainment]

Or Space Colony Ark

[@Theultimatelifeform2001]

Yeah it makes more sense

[@YourLocalSonicFam]

I would say city escape is the other sonic stage instead of windy hill

[@boo4407]

@@YourLocalSonicFam heck yes

[@Hugelag]

The biggest sin in my eyes is the fact that Sonic got a single remix in Brawl and never again. _FINAL FANTASY_ got remixes after Sephiroth got added. Even Bayonetta, a (technically,) fellow Sega character, got more than one Smash remix.

[@JacketJester]

You know what's funny about that remix? It isn't even a smash original remix, its taken from some remix album

[@RandomizationShow]

To be real, the quality of his music is so far beyond most other smash characters that I 100% prefer it that way. Especially the adventure era songs

[@calvinalejandrox7143]

@@RandomizationShowOn point. The only music that could be arranged is from the Genesis era. The music from the Dreamcast and modern era could be the same.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@RandomizationShow agreed

[@ineophobe]

​​@@orangeslash1667at least their music actually sounds like their music *cough cough minecraft*

[@Monhamd1000]

The biggest irony that not many even know Mega Man as much as Sonic.

[@antunderexist692]

Funny they used to work together back in Archie Comics man.

[@nellewoodruff6337]

Been a sonic fan since forever but smash 4 was what introduced me to mega man

[@superizillian957]

I feel that’s kinda on capcom, they don’t give mega man a lot of attention nowadays

[@Kiwi-Vogel]

I think that It's because Sonic has a more interesting design

[@ThisisTheUltimate]

>Barebones moveset >2 identical loooing stages >The only character from his own series >Boring looking skins >Only one remix from his gigantic catalogue of amazing and memorable songs, and not enough of his original non-remixed songs >Reused voice clips >Downgrade on his model >Downgrande on his trophy bio (although I remember he's not the only one who had a better bio in Brawl) >Usually resumed by Nintendo only by his signature move, the Spindash, when he has a giant catalogue of moves >maybe more Way to treat a video-game icon that was one of the first 3rd party characters in Smash, Nintendo

[@jamiegioca9448]

The lack of remixes isn’t a problem IMO. Sonic music is already fire by design, and a remix might just ruin it (looking at you, Zinnia theme and Try Try Again remixes)

[@LowpolyChaos]

tbf they aren’t really allowed to give sonic much variation in skins because as far as i’m aware he legally has to be some shade of blue, but everything else is valid

[@TicTacToeCraft]

​@@jamiegioca9448 What's wrong with the Try, Try Again remix? It was literally arranged by Yoko Shimomura.

[@jamiegioca9448]

@@TicTacToeCraft And yet, she didn’t cook nearly as good as she did in Dream Team. It’s so damn dull compared to the original

[@SteelTiamat]

"A giant catalogue of moves" Sonic's moves in most of his mainline games: curls into a ball and attacks. It wasn't until Frontiers that Sonic received a more detailed moveset. Sonic fans like to gaslight themselves into believing that he has a huge repertoire of moves when he is one of the most simplistic characters. I also like how people attribute everything they don't like about him to Nintendo, when it was Sega who approved his portrayal.

[@czms922]

All I can hope for is sakurai to finally give sonic the rep he deserves in the next smash, since he's actually played sonic frontiers

[@orangeslash1667]

Sakurai said the reason Smash was created is because he wanted to make a fighting game that was more accessible than King of Fighters 95. The Nintendo characters were merely added to make the game standout. In other words the accessibly and balance of Smash to Sakurai is far more important than representation.

[@MustacheDLuffy]

@@orangeslash1667 I think representation is important to. Every character has moves from different games in their franchise.

[@grunkleg.2934]

​@@orangeslash1667You say that, but then they put Min Min, Steve, and Kazuya into the game. I think representation is being pushed a bit more than accessibility and balance here

[@orangeslash1667]

@@grunkleg.2934 Steve and Min Min are some of slower characters in Smash, so they don't need to be reduced. The problem with Sonic is that he's too fast. You would have to take away his speed in order to give him more complex moves and Sega won't allow Sonic to be slower. Otherwise Sonic could be extremely over powered. So Sakurai has no choice but to reduce Sonic to how he plays in the classic games, Sonic the Fighters, the Adventure games and thats it.

[@LancelotGraCro]

Didn't Sakurai say Ultimate was his cut off, and that we'll likely get more smash games but he won't be working on them?

[@zachpro5475]

You know sonic representation in smash sucks because his representation is dryer than Death Valley

[@Bowbtastic]

actually, the voice clips sonic says in ultimate are just reused from sonic generations. 🤓

[@MajinSprite]

@@Bowbtastic "Erm, actually ☝🏽🤓"

[@_YouL_]

⁠@@orangeslash1667I’m sure sega would definitely allow more sonic reps on account of knuckles and shadow being assist trophies. I think Sakurai could give sonic a far better move set. One that isn’t broken or to overpowered.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@_YouL_ Assist trophies, doesn't mean Sega will give use more Sonic reps. Mega man has Zero and Dr Willy assist, but Mega man is the only rep. Popularly doesn't determine the amount of representation a character gets, it's merely a reason for a franchise to get in. The good news is that we do have other Sega reps like Joker and Bayonetta since Sega owns the rights.

[@gameyfirebro9645]

When does he say "Sonic Speed" in Gens?

[@DemonikPrizm]

​​@@gameyfirebro9645It's not all from Generations but literally none of the lines are new. Sonic's Japanese voice never changed so his voice didn't update like most of the veterans since Brawl or even Smash 1 in Jigglypuff's case. In Sonic's case they recycled lines from the previous Roger games and even spliced some together like the first part of his final smash line is from a cutscene in Generations while the other part doesn't from what I remember. Edit: What I'm saying is basically that they didn't change Sonic's dialogue because they thought it was too much, HE STILL HAS THE BRAWL DIALOGUE IN JAPANESE, his dialogue was changed because they didn't wanna bring Roger in to record new lines and just recycled what they could.

[@SuperMarioT]

Shadow would either get Radical Highway, his first stage in Sonic Adventure 2, or preferably imo the Space Colony Ark, his birth place and the climax setting for Sonic Adventure 2 & which several stages for every playable character in SA2 are up there.

[@AliceGaymer]

those are far less iconic then city escpae tho, come on DUDE, city escape deserves to be in, its the most iconic stage in sonic EVER

[@SinkFalling]

⁠@@AliceGaymerwoah woah woah, it’s not the most iconic stage in sonic ever, stuff like green hill and Chemical are far more iconic because of their presence being known outside of the sonic fan base (Specifically Green hill) I do respect your opinion tho and think that city escape is in the top 5 for best sonic stages.

[@AliceGaymer]

@@SinkFalling well maybe that would be the case if green hill didnt reappear a billion times

[@SinkFalling]

@@AliceGaymer true

[@boydixonentertainment]

@@AliceGaymer If they did to City Escape what they did Green Hill, ya’ll would be complaining about it the same way.

[@ownsundae]

13:31 dude got it right and corrected himself

[@Ronicalter]

it’s both iirc

[@BuckyTee]

Mushroom valley is the name of the beta version

[@malharezyoutube]

3:47 that’s a reference to Sonic Adventure key art by Yuji Uekawa also the “Let’s do that again sometime!” Line is a reference to one of Sonic Adventure’s victory lines

[@samonce7215]

personally, i think Eggman should have received Eggmanland fromSonic Unleashed, but that's just me

[@samonce7215]

AAAND shadow should've gotten radical highway

[@real_overtale]

Hell yeah

[@revnrave]

Sonics move set is based off his classic games, but it’s weird bcus they use modern sonic as the model and voice lines.

[@jaketheanimation]

Pit has a special death animation when you star K.O him he says “I never learned how to read” lmao

[@Ynsns989-meow]

If they ever add Tails, I would imagine his moves being inspired from Sonic Battle (plus it's the first game where tails has his hand gun)

[@kyletheshork6196]

For the outfits i'd probably add soap shoes as well but also other references like him wearing silvers shoes and gloves and having his fur be white, same can be said for a shadow reference

[@SansINess53]

Sky zone for sonic would've been better, as windy Hill only represented a mid era of sonic.

[@alu_sonic]

Shadow if they don't want make alot of work. Eggman if they folow the "add more vilain", and knuckles if they want a different / heavy char. Tails if they wana add the best Friends. I want Shadow.

[@alu_sonic]

Pumpkin hill for knuckles man...

[@Senketsujin]

Maybe he should have rings come out when that KO flash screen is triggered. That would be more in line with the Sonic games since he only drops rings if he takes damage.

[@TheDesignerdogz]

I think sonic should've been the only character with aerial taunts

[@utopiasonline]

Sonic being neglected time after time is very accurate to the series treatment. So in that sense it is very faithfully represented.

[@InternetFanatic]

The poor Hedgehog deserved better :(

[@orangeslash1667]

@@InternetFanatic The problem is that sonic is too fast. Giving him more complex moves could make him broken. Terry and Ryu don’t have this problem because thier not sonic fast.

[@Reset2150676]

​@@orangeslash1667tf you mean could. hes literally the 4th best character in ultimate

[@orangeslash1667]

@@Reset2150676 Thats not the point, this video is judging characters by representation. For example Banjo Kazooie has almost everything from their games. Not so much with Sonic, compared to his full potential from his games, Sonic in Smash feels like his missing something. Like the boost, light speed dash, or flaming spin dash from SA 2. I think Sakurai left that potential on purpose to keep Sonic balanced. However compared to the rest of the third party case, Sonic's moveset is overly simple. Which is hard to accept.

[@donathan2933]

Do y’all ever get tired of spewing the same outdated complaints about the franchise which have long since been fixed or improved? Get some new material 🤡

[@Keifeto]

seeing more Sonic things in smash would be really cool to be honest. given that decades old rivalry between Sonic and Mario it would be fun to give mario a chance to face more Sonic characters. (also the roster could never be too big /s)

[@crimsonzone8984]

I want Silver in smash and smash everyone on the field with psychic.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@crimsonzone8984 Silver is too similar to Mewtwo.

[@crimsonzone8984]

@@orangeslash1667 how similar? I'd imagine Silver's moveset to be like his v1 gimmick in sonic battle mugan, but with the special moves being his normal moves rather using punches and kicks. Like for example, if you were to do some kind of uppercut move that launches the opponent in the air to do air combos, Silver will instead pull rocks or objects from the ground that the opponent is standing on, carrying him/her along with it (or maybe grab the opponent as well) and then hurl the objects/rocks at 'em for combos. Another would be the low sweep attack, and Silver instead uses a psycho shock but with damage. The thing I'd want Silver to have is have long range in his attacks and have control over the battlefield. Especially when using PK All, where he grabs everything and everyone in his long radius. And his got to have the visual effects when using his moves. Traversal and mobility should be done by teleporting and moving himself around with psychic. Silver doesn't necessarily have to actually fly around the stage. He just has to defy physics by levitating when traversing and fighting and be able to move around the field when doing that with PK. I forgot how mewtwo plays in smash. But I think I remember that pokemon moving his body like paper. I dunno. How does mewtwo plays again?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@crimsonzone8984 Mewtwo has psychic powers and has good speed. He's weakness is that he lightweight.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

​@@orangeslash1667 mewtwo barely uses his psychic abilities in smash lol

[@SolarBlues730]

5:58 I speak for all of us diehard Mega Man fans when I say . . . neither do we.

[@lemone630]

If that's referring to the orbs, I always saw that as an explosion effect (I usually compare it to Phantom self-destructing in Mega Man Zero and emitting similar orbs before going boom, but it's a bit too different to say for sure.)

[@MC69420-v]

The fact that pacman is on this thumbnail implies that his rep is better than Sonic’s Which is straight up Bullshit

[@brytilaar]

I think that Pac-Man really has the least representation of music in Smash Bros. There are no tracks from the Pac-Man World Games, the Klonoa Games, Pac-Man World Rally, Ms. Pac-Man, Pac-Attack, Pac N'Roll, Jr. Pac-Man and Pac-Man 2 from the Genesis. Smash needs to add more Pac-Man Music.

[@MC69420-v]

@@brytilaar that’s exactly my point

[@MackyMooseCartoonist]

Pumpkin Hill for Knuckles. I cannot envision anything else.

[@notenoughgarlic]

Play Project Plus. You’ll get exactly that. Knuckles plays great too

[@boydixonentertainment]

@@MackyMooseCartoonist Sky Sanctuary

[@thegamerator10]

“You know me, the fighting freak Knuckles, and we’re at Pumpkin Hill! You ready?”

[@vannillaAJofficial204]

​@@thegamerator10 i aint gon let it get to me, im just gon creep

[@Kitty_kat_kat.]

Sonic battle is a great area to get for sonic fighting moves

[@thechargedfoxie456yt2]

If we got a new stage for sonic i think itd be sunset heights Something that was always off to me is all the sonic music in smash is main themes, except of course some classic levels, green hill, emerald hill, scrap brain, and then winfy hill for yhe stage Studiopolis is also there for mania representation Yet i find it ofd we already have fist bump as forces representation but we also have sunset heights I think a stage based on sunset heights would be cool, having death egg robots in the background attacking the stage Another unique stage for sonic could be any stage from CD, having a signpost spawn that players can attack to change the stage to the past or future But as for a new character eggman seems like the only good option Of course i wanna see tails as much as the next guy, but I feel like tails knuckles and shadow would all play too similar to sonic Eggman would add another villian, and provide a unique moveset with his robots and eggmobile And in terms of moveset changes, aside from the boost id like to see sonic have a chain homing attack Of course being able to spam homing attack is too op but what i wanna see is after landing a homing attack you could homing attack someone else, that way if its not a 1v1 you can chain it on multiple people, but you couldnt hit the sane person twice before hitting the ground Id also change the final smash, of course a whole new supersonic final smash would be great but i persobally only want a small tweak to his current one, it always felt like the scattering chaos emeralds should hurt enemies if they hit them but they don't, and it always felt wrong to me Another addition that isnt needed but would just make gameplay a bit better is have you use the red spring when holding sonics up special, but when tapping it he uses a yellow spring which doesnt bounce him as high, again its not something i need but just a nice quality of life feature Lastly, alts I want them to change 1 alt to have a sonic unleashed alt making sonic a darker blueish purple to reference the werehog, and make his bracelet be chips necklace that he gets at the ending of unleashed They dont even have to change the color, i just wanna see that reference to chip

[@joey5745]

It’s clear that the Smash developers Dont like Sonic,

[@SSKO2]

Same could be said for Pac-Man, especially since Bandai Namco was involved with Ultimate and Smash 4

[@CoffyThecat]

actually knuckles already has his own stage called angel island i think that is why they made him a assist trophy

[@LibertarianTerriermon]

I'd put Westopolis from shadow the hedgehog to represent shadow along with Waluigi and Lyn shadow being an assist trophy to playable is long overdue.

[@LamoSolid]

Final Rush/Chase or Radical Highway from SA2 would be good stages for Shadow as well

[@thatoneguythatexists4189]

I'd wish characters like Sonic, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc would be given a new moveset to represent their characters better and transferred their old moveset to their own echo fighter or a new rep from the franchise like Shadow or Dry Bowser.

[@spider-soniczilla2989]

Their old kits could be moved to -Sonic: Classic Sonic (Not Shadow or Metal, that would be a waste of both of those characters). -Ganondorf: Concidering that his kit is just a slower but stronger Captain Falcon, it should go to an F-Zero character, probably that one who wears black with the horns (forgot his name 💀) Edit: Black Shadow. -Bowser: Either Dry Bowser (or they could give Dry the new kit either one) or the Fake Bowser from Bowser's Inside story (less likely but it would be cool).

[@gabrielbarbosa7882]

Honestly, really good ideas.​@@spider-soniczilla2989

[@boydixonentertainment]

@@spider-soniczilla2989 Dry Bowser as anything more than a costume for Bowser would be a waste of a slot.

[@spider-soniczilla2989]

@@boydixonentertainment I mean yeah but they still wast slots on characters like Dr. Mario, and OP said that Bowser was one of the characters who they wanted to get a new moveset.

[@SteelTiamat]

The hell is wrong with Bowser's moveset?

[@Saiune]

Tails actually has a great moveset in a fangame called Super Smash Bros Crusade, and he had his moveset from Sonic Battle along with a few unique moves too, and it works great!

[@requiem6465]

I want Eggman in smash and have his final smash either be the Death Egg Robot, the Eclipse Cannon, or him summoning Metal Sonic to recreate Sonics final smash to mock him.

[@jackiexkh]

Hey, at least Sonic has it better than Pac-Man, who I'd say actually is the worst treated (or at least worst represented) third party in Smash.

[@lemon5000-tj6nv]

Fr at least sonic has something outside the classics like music and spirits and some parts of his moveset, a shadow assist trophy and an alt based of silver, meanwhile pac-man is just so retro the series and they only rep the 80s arcade games We can’t even get arrangement 96 let alone the championship edition or World Series And for as much as ppl complain about them, I’d honestly say that sonic has better alts than Pac-Man Literally the only piece of rep for Pac-Man’s games outside the arcade is his up aerial which is the flip kick from World 2 I’m hoping we at the very least get some CE and World rep in the next smash game after we got Museum+ and World Repac

[@calvinalejandrox7143]

Thank the lord. Someone that realizes the fact that Pac-Man has the worst treatment of the third party characters. Literally he only has 3 songs in the game, being the rest from other Namco games, when he has many games with good music, like Pac-Man World. Has the worst alts in the game, being the best the one which I like to call the Bread-Man. The least amount of third party spirits. And he could have 2 stages in the game, but they scrapped Pac-Maze, the stage that screams “PAC-MAN”, and left the least popular stage in the saga, Pac-Land, which doesn’t even have an arrangement.

[@fruitpun6h]

No Pac-Man Arrangement music in the game is crazy to me but the Pac-Man’s Park and Block Town remix kind of makes up for it. I just wish he could have a Ms. Pac-Man alternate, which shouldn’t be a problem for smash bros since she’s literally in the Pac-Land stage

[@orangeslash1667]

@@lemon5000-tj6nv Miyamoto said that Pac Land is what inspired Mario bros, so maybe thats why Pac Land was chosen?? One reason for non Pac-man songs, is that Namco is known for re-releases of Namco Museum. Which has retro classic's including Pac-man. For example Pac-man's throw is Galaga, and up B is Mappy. None of them are Pac-man games, but like Pac-man are arcade games from the 80's that are usually in Namco Museum's.

[@SSKO2]

Pacman couldn’t even have ONE other music track from anything branching from the arcade games like PMW or CE.

[@funnymonkey3961]

Ok but hear me out, egg man as a echo fighter for Sonic. It would be really funny to see Eggman tuck in his legs and arms to spin dash across the stage.

[@lasercraft32]

Its honestly depressing that Sonic has more character expression in BRAWL compared to any other game... Because that's the game where they had to rush to include him on the roster. That's why half of his attacks are ball moves, so they didn't have to animate as much (but of course... Sakurai, with his usual philosophy of refusing to change veteran movesets very much, didn't do much to fix it in later titles).

[@1000shadowmario]

I would like to change one thing from your video, and that would be Shadow's stage. Instead of City Escape, it should be the Space Colony Ark. Won't be spoiling much, but it is Shadow's home, and it holds a lot of value for him and his history.

[@batearfox2024]

Here's how I would make sonic to feel like the character and the changes I could make: 1. For his moveset I would replace his forward air, down smash, up tilt, side special and down special, forward air is easy, it has to be the sonic eagle kick from sonic battle, up tilt his kickflip from sonic battle, down smash his breakdance from sonic battle as well, side special I would add his boost were he can dash in 3 directions, up, down and forward, when sonic does this rings will pop up depending on were your aiming, similar on how he does this in super smash flash 2 and his down special I could give him his tornado spin from heroes or one if his moves from frontiers. 2. For a second rep for sonic I go for tails or shadow, but if I have to choose wisely I'll go for shadow since he's the second most popular sonic character a long side with sonic and he has been a highly requested character to be in smash for a long time, in fact everyone including myself were expecting to see him in ultimate as an echo fighter of sonic but that never happend and with how Sega has been pushing the character this year with the upcoming third movie and the remaster of sonic generations, his popularity will grow more with new people who are entering in the fandom. 3. For his taunts I would change his up taunt with his pose from sonic adventure 1 where he jumps and does the pose and as for his victory poses I would replace his running animation with the one the goal sign that someone made a mod and posted on KZbin, that's all the changes and stuff I could do it I was in charge and to make sure sonic is represented well. Plus I would replace the windy hill stage with city escape, casino night or radical highway and remix music from different titles or spinoff of the series.

[@364wii]

Funny in sonic battle tails had a mega buster basically so I can see that.

[@Lemerksiscool]

14:13 "sonic zones smash or pass"

[@goldwhining]

The amount of times you say you haven't played most of the Sonic games got hella funny

[@Right_Bumper]

Let's add insult to injury shall we? He has 2 of the same moves for his specials, just with different properties (this doesn't change anything cuz it's still lazy) Green Hill Zone as a stage twice They ruined his personality And his most wanted 2nd character, the 2nd most popular Sonic character, is an assist trophy 3 times along with adding Knuckles as a new one

[@mastrsonic375]

And in a game where they added Iconic Villains like Willy (as an assist trophy) and Sephiroth they ignored Eggman

[@Right_Bumper]

@@mastrsonic375 I remember when they said they wanted more villains and yet there were so little villains added in Ultimate

[@Right_Bumper]

Also, just a personal opinion, Sonic only really has 2 good alts with the black and grey one. The rest are just terrible

[@ceoofceos5219]

@@Right_BumperRidley, Kazuya, Krool, Dark Samus, Sephiroth- that’s a solid amount of new villains

[@Right_Bumper]

@@ceoofceos5219 Dark Samus isn’t a villain, should not be in the same sentence when you apply Ridley in there. So we only really got 4 new villains

[@osmanxz4503]

Since Sephiroth joined Smash, he brought more Final Fantasy VII songs with him and Cloud. So if Shadow joins Smash 6, he could do something similar. This could mean more stages, more songs, tons of references for him and Sonic, and possibly even Dr. Eggman appearing as a boss, a playable character, or maybe both.

[@4_kgsSecondary]

I'd say that you could replace eggman's stage for eggmanland from unleashed. It is so iconic from the game for how hard the stage is and it perfectly capsulates his ego and character.

[@retrohero2762]

I always thought of Tails as a newcomer, Shadow as an echo, Eggman as a boss and Knuckles and Amy as assists

[@MajinSprite]

@retrohero2762 Oh man I totally forgot that Ultimate had bosses, Eggman definitely should've been in there

[@Step43099]

Shadow is so cool and unique he could easily be his own character

[@retrohero2762]

@Step43099 He could but the way Smash works with its limited slots they'd only really put the effort in making one Sonic character with a unique moveset and if they give that to Tails while making Shadow an echo they can do both characters which feels more right

[@setheatontheautobot4586]

SHADOW THE HEDGEHOG!!! And Eggman along with Tails. With that, it would be main, sidekick, rival, enemy. A perfect character roster

[@Tails-The-Smartguy]

For Tails’ stage, I feel like it should be casino night zone.

[@loganjake8994]

I personally (being totally biased having not played any Nintendo games or many of the other games on this list) only ever play any smash bros game as Sonic, idk if it’s just because I’m familiar with the move set because of other Sonic games, or how much time I’ve spent on the character, but I can say I enjoy playing as him the most, and don’t have any trouble with him, aside from spamming buttons too fast and slipping off the edge, but I’ve won a lot of games as just Sonic

[@radudumitru3306]

i saw a secret meeting about shadow for smash. he was supposed to have chaos control (witch was a time stop) and a gun witch would PERMANTLY delete the character shot, witch was his neutral B i think, and his super deleted the whole game. but then NINTENDO said it was "ToO poWerFUll " and "CoMPletLY UmBalnCED". they just couldn't understand sakura's vision😤😤

[@orangeslash1667]

Remember Final Fantasy is the only exception of two reps of a third party franchise. Popularity alone doesn't equal the amount of representation.

[@boydixonentertainment]

@@orangeslash1667 Castlevania and Street Fighter have two reps too. Doesn’t matter if they’re Echo Fighters.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@boydixonentertainment Shadow would not work as an echo fighter. He doesn’t move the same way as sonic.

[@boydixonentertainment]

@@orangeslash1667 That's not what I was arguing. I am for an original moveset for Shadow or even Shadow as a Semi-Echo. You were implying there was a rule saying third parties can't get more than one rep despite that being disproven more than once by now.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@boydixonentertainment There's an even bigger problem. What to know why we have so many Fire Emblem characters, it's because Sakurai wants to have a balance of safe character vs risk characters. Safe characters have movesets that have little strengths and little weakness. Risk characters by comparison have much flashier movesets, but they come with much bigger downsides. Sephiroth is a good example of a risk character. His moveset is very similar to Marth and Corrin in that they have great spacing and are sword users. What makes Sephiroth so menacing is that his spacing has more range than Marth and he has even more zoning options than Corrin, but there's a catch. Not only is Sephiroth as light as Kirby, but he has a melee dead zone. His sword swings don't have the wight coverage of most of the swordsmen in Smash. Making it kinda difficult to use Sephiroth aggressively. The Fire Emblem reps may not be a flashy as Sephiroth, but their weaknesses aren't as egregious as Sephiroth. So the FE reps feel like safe characters. What does this have to do with Shadow, if he was in Smash he would have a similar problem with Sephiroth but worse. With Sephiroth the weakness of being light weight is a reference to Cloud killing him in one hit. I struggle to think of a weakness that fits Shadow's character while standing out from Sonic and Sonic already had to be simplified in Smash because he's way too fast. Sakurai doesn't want Shadow to be playable because he doesn't think it's possible to balance him????

[@morphstarchangeling8024]

Technically Terry has a unique deatj animation where when he's hit hard enough to KO him his hat flies off. Inkling also has one where when they die in stamina or from an instant kill move you can see the little Inkiling soul float up and away like in Splatoon when you get splatted and need to respawn. Surprisingly enough Pacman DOESN'T have any unique sound effects nor animations for when he is KOed despite Bandai Namco helping with the last two smash games meaning there's no reason other than Bandai just not putting it in. When it comes to Sonic's moves I feel like we need a lot of changes. Getting rid of one of his spin dashes and adding a boost gauge that he has to use to make use of boost on side special I think could change the main issue I see with sonic. Sonic in his current form is rewarded more for not engaging the enemy. If he had to hit the enemy to build up a Boost gauge or lose one of his movement abilities from over use I could see it changing his playstyle enough so he doesn't just run away and wait for his opponent to make a mistake.

[@venotaspishurs1536]

I’d change the side b for his Blue Tornado from Sonic Heroes, I feel like that game is very forgotten by the community

[@Shonicss4]

Incinaroar's "taunts" also has end lag, making him vulnerable, that would be very bad for sonic

[@TheNewKombatMaster]

City Escape would be more of a stage for Sonic than it would Shadow.

[@giothethird]

One of the big changes I'd do to the stages would most likely be replacing the one classic stage in Smash with its Generations counterpart, because that game's reimagining of Green Hill is still being used by Sega 13 years after that game's release. As a fun fact, Modern Green Hill was also a fighting stage in Dengeki Bunko, an arcade game published by Sega in 2014. What we have in Smash, instead, is the Brawl model that had its textures slightly touched up for Smash 4 3DS, and then cleaned up for Ultimate. It's also funny that they've kept Windy Hill... it was added in Smash 4 WiiU to promote a then-recent title, but so was Woolly World, which didn't make it for Ultimate.

[@MustacheDLuffy]

For additional Sonic characters these are the movesets I’d have Dr. Eggman: Rides around in his hover chair that is a multipurpose vehicle using attacks from multiple creations of his Neutral B: Egg dragoon: He jabs his opponents with the spear from the egg dragoon. Side B: Egg Drillster: He falls into his infamous car from sonic 2. Can function like wario’s bike but can take more damage and is more vulnerable to attacks Down B: Egg Wrecker: He uses his wrecking ball from sonic 1 but because he’d have to be a lot higher up to drop it underneath his character model, it’s more likely he’ll slam the ball into his opponents like how he does in sonic forces. Up B: Eggwalker: He uses his vehicle from sonic adventure 2 to hover back to the stage Tails: Neutral B: Uses his gun from sonic battle to shoot at opponents Side B: Tail Swipe: He spins his tails charging into his opponent. Down B: Drops these bombs that run into the enemy (like how bowser Jr does) Up B: Flies back to the stage using his tails like he does in Sonic 3 and mania Knuckles: Neutral B: Knuckles slams his fists down into the ground attacking nearby enemies. He does this attack in Sonic 06 as well as heroes Side B: Knuckles charges up a powerful punch and slams it into his opponent Down B: Knuckles digs into the ground coming up to attack enemies. Up B: Knuckles shoots himself up in the air and glides horizontally back to the stage. Shadow: Neutral B: Chaos Blast: Shadow explodes red chaos energy blowing his enemies back Side B: Chaos spear: he launches an energy arrow at his opponent Down B: Chaos Control: Functions closer to Mythra’s Forseight and Bayonetta’s witch time where shadow will slow down time for a brief moment to attack in Up B: Teleportation: Shadow teleports using chaos control upward as his recovery option.

[@BurntRavi07]

10:13 reminds me. There’s a Sonic arcade game called ‘Sonic the Fighters’ a 2D Sonic fighting game. In said game Eggman actually fights in a mech suit to fight Sonic and friends. I wouldn’t be surprised if they did something similar

[@CoffyThecat]

actually tails has a arm canon like mega man in his game

[@giorgiobedolla]

I love how every other character on the roster gets a variety of stages from different games of their series while all Sonic gets is Green Hill Zone and.....Windy Hill Zone....which is basically another Green Hill.

[@samuelbrown1283]

I would rather play Sonic in Brawl rather than Ultimate

[@OverlyEpux]

An echo fighter for Metal sonic would be super cool

[@Ando1428]

My change to sonic would be his down taunt would do damage. Its crazy that sonics only fast foot attack does no damage. Sonic needs a multihit move. When it comes to his specials i wouldnt change what they are id change small aspects of them. The side b should slam if he lands on the jump. Down b does multiple damage pressing jump during the multiple damage should pop your opponent upward. Stuff to make his jump better.

[@NeonBobert]

if sonic had alternate costumes, these would be my ideas: - default (obviously) - classic sonic - depending on if shadow gets added, a shadow costume - soap shoes - either Darkspine or secret rings sonic - werehog and maybe one or two reskins if they're good

[@hola07577]

Fun fact: The real worst treated third party character in the game is Pac-Man, I mean, all of his smash attacks and specials are all old arcade sprites (mainly from his original game but other things like the trampoline from Mappie). He had a 3D platformer trilogy called Pac-Man World, where he had many moves like Rev Roll, Butt-Bounce, or even throw pellets, he doesn't even talk, altought he had many voices (especially Martin T. Sherman, one of the many VA of Thomas the trainengine) the only map that he has in Ultimate is Pac-Land, they didn't even included the maze map from 3DS, poor guy, he even lost his wife :'v

[@SSKO2]

Fun fact? That’s a fact fact. A depressing Pac-Fact no less

[@hola07577]

@@SSKO2 I called it "Fun Fact" to at least not cry for how bad Pac was treatened (btw, hi Starfy! I watched a lot of your videos, didn't expect to see you here!)

[@Coolstrongwarriorbro27]

Bro Pac-Man has a way better move set than sonic. All Sonic does is turn into a ball

[@SSKO2]

@@Coolstrongwarriorbro27 dude it’s not just the moveset

[@hola07577]

@@Coolstrongwarriorbro27 Pac uses only sprite attacks from his original game and other Namco arcade games, he literally can't do all of his moves from other games, his moves are literally just based on Nostalgia, since Pac already had platformer games like Pac-In-Time, where he had special habilities, or the World series, I mean, Sonic turns into a ball in many of his attacks, but atleast he got more songs from his games, more spirits and more stuff than Pac-Man, Pac literally just uses attacks based on arcade games, that's why I think that he's the worst treated third party character in the game

[@zachm56gaming30]

As a sonic main I agree with the stuff he said especially the fact that sonic was 55% better in brawl.... besides the spindashes galore

[@Kelps.mp4]

Before watching the video, Shadow and Knuckles are the no-brainers when it comes to adding more Sonic characters imo, not only because they are part of the main cast a.k.a the most well-known Sonic characters, but also they are the two of the only characters that have been shown to actually fight, so they don't have to figure out what the characters would do in a fighting context.

[@GamingTopTen]

If they implement Shadow and make him a Sonic echo, it would be perhaps the most wasted potential for any smash character. You could make his up special Chaos Control (Mewtwo Up-b), his side special a motorcycle (Wario side-b) and use chaos spear for his neutral special. I can see him being more of a Luigi to Sonic's Mario. Similar moves in some places, but more than different enough to be considered his own character.

[@collinwasnthere]

im gonna add onto his boost, he has a boost gauge as per usual but every 10% he deals to opponents, it fills up along with ko-ing them

[@ryanwebb309]

I have 2 ideas for his costumes 1. Give him matching shoes for his already existing alts. For example, the yellow costume could have the shoes from 06 that allow you to use different gems, or his blue costume could have Classic Sonic's shoes. 2. Not gonna lie, I am very much proud of this idea. What if, and just hear me out... Sonic had a Hero situation where it's 4 characters in 1 slot, each with their own alternate costumes. So, here's what it would essentially look like: slots 1-4 are Sonic, Shadow, Amy, and Silver, the 4 hedgehogs. As for their alternate costumes, Sonic could become black and white to reference the Mirror Fighter from Fighters, Shadow could be a Shadow Android, Amy could have her Classic outfit, and Silver could become his Sonic and the Black Knight counterpart.

[@blissinvariety]

0:24 Ayyy, that’s my playlist, I didn’t know it appeared in search. It’s basically, as said, a bunch of videos that talk about Sonic’s moveset, with most of them being a redesign. I made it to try and make my own moveset, which I think holds up pretty well. I loved your redesign!

[@MajinSprite]

@blissinvariety It's crazy that you watched this video, what are the chances??

[@blissinvariety]

@@MajinSprite Hey, it’s a small world. I guess YT recommendations know I can’t get enough of watching people talk about Sonic in smash lol

[@orangeslash1667]

@@blissinvariety If we can't get any more Sonic reps, I recommend playing as R.O.B and pretend he's an Eggman robot. Since R.O.B doesn't have his own stage, he might as well represent video game robots.

[@PikaPiPika]

The Smash team's and Sakurai's ignorance to Sonic and his series is honestly one of the biggest sins of Smash. He's definitely the third party character that should get the most love and effort. His impact is UNDENIABLE. (If you disagree, you're just wrong.) Sakurai is way too biased when it comes to designing Smash Characters. He even said himself that he's not a big fan of the series. That's probably why Sonic hasn't had a new rep or moveset change. We'll just get our millionth sword character with a generic moveset.

[@shadows_bloodedge_78]

I feel like classic sonic could've been an echo fighter for Sonic, and he could've used the elemental shields for his moveset. But i do agree with this video, and i would love for this moveset to be added

[@spider-soniczilla2989]

I've always thought that Sonic's current kit (with some adjustments) should have been moved to Classic so Modern could get a completely new kit better representing his series while keeping the orginal kit in the game.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@spider-soniczilla2989 I think Sakurai reduced Sonic's moveset on purpose because if Sonic had all of his potential, he be incredibly broken. Bayonetta, Sora, Samus, Ridley, Wario, Joker, and Olimar also have this problem.

[@spider-soniczilla2989]

@@orangeslash1667 I'm not talking about movement, I'm more so talking about how his kit lacks the charm and style that it should have for Sonic. Not even including Frontiers there is zero reason Sonic Battle wasn't used as a base for his attacks, break dance based attacks would definitely make him feel more alive and stand out in the roster.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@spider-soniczilla2989 He's still more expressive than Snake, Sheik, Greninja, and Steve. I said moveset, not movement. The problem with Sonic is that he's too fast, giving him a more complex move-set could make him broken. Look at Steve and Kazuya they have extremely complex move-sets, but thier some of slowest characters in Smash for balance reasons. You would have to take away Sonic's speed in order to make his move-set more complex. I don't think Sega would allow that, because they feel that speed is Sonic's most important trait.

[@spider-soniczilla2989]

@@orangeslash1667 Sorry I misread the moveset part, my bad. For your expression point, the issue with that is your comparing characters who not the most expensive to Sonic, who's care free 80's auditude was one of his 2 main selling factors (that and he a fast boi), that's not the same a character like Snake, who doesn't really need his personality in his moves. Sonic feels more like something trying to mimick Sonic from memory rather then the Blue Blur.

[@raggens]

With Shadow getting his own year and everything thx to the third movie coming out, there’s no reason for Nintendo to NOT leave him out as a fighter in the next Smash game. And revamp Sonic’s moveset as well by doing some basically obvious things, like have him lose his rings upon death. Give him an axe kick forward air. Replace his side special with a boost move. A rapid jab that he can choose o over his gentleman or something. Replace Windy Hill Zone with a Radical Highway stage inspired by Sonic x Shadow Generations. Give the franchise more iconic songs, and throw in a couple new remixes as well since there are times where you rarely need to improve upon perfection And if Shadow were to end up in Smash - likely as an Echo Fighter, semi-clone, or both similar to Ken - I can see him utilizing Chaos Control more, along with some of his new Doom Powers as well as have him utilize the fiery boosts in his Air Shoes

[@JDubs1464]

I lowkey think a Capcom vs Marvel-esque game for Sonic and Mario would be great, Sonic fans get to fight as their favorite characters, Everyone else gets Waluigi as a playable character

[@nicholasaugello2534]

Knuckles and Shadow and Tails not appearing is surprising, i know alot of people would want to play as Shadow or even Eggman , he could be a weird bowser junior Echo fighter or something

[@dylantherunner5841]

*Shadow* could’ve been a perfect echo fighter of Sonic with air/side dodges like those of Mewtwo instead of Sonic since Shadow uses Chaos Control more. The new stage with him could’ve been the Arc- perhaps the section where he races/battles Sonic. They could’ve added many songs like I Am All of Me, Never Turn Back, Crisis City, and other intense songs. They could’ve also made *Metal Sonic* an echo fighter for Sonic with the only difference being his up+B changing from a spring to a rocket boost. Stage: Stardust Speedway. Music: from Sonic CD, Heroes, and Mania. They could’ve added *Eggman* as a bigger “heavy” version of Bowser Jr. with similar moves. The new stage could’ve been either Death Egg Zone or Planet Wisp. They could’ve added Big Arms, E.G.G.M.A.N., Eggmanland (Day/Night) from Unleashed, and perhaps some themes from Colors. Since Tails and Knuckles are already mii fighters, I can’t picture Amy having a big enough moveset, and Silver isn’t a sufficiently consistent character in the franchise, my last idea is… *Sonic the Werehog.* Hear me out, he wouldn’t play like Sonic at all. He would play like a combination of Min Min and Ken with stretchy arms and fighting game combos. The new stage: I’m open to whichever setting, but probably the Spagonia clocktower. Regardless, there would be a TON of music. That’s one of the things I hate most is that they represented my favorite two Sonic games (Unleashed and Generations) with only ONE song: Rooftop Run Act 2 from Generations. Welp, if you read all of this, thank you. But you should probably go do that thing you needed to do.

[@dylantherunner5841]

Also, how come Dr. Mario is in smash, but neither Sonic the Werehog nor Excalibur Sonic are in it?

[@acidthewolf3603]

as much as i like this video and the things you would add to the game, i would say that some of the stages could be different, the stage to represent tails is fine, but i would say that the death egg stage would be the death egg from sonic 3, knuckles’ stage would be sky sanctuary, and shadow’s stage would be a stage based on the space colony ark, also as an extra character, i say that maybe metal sonic should be in smash with his stage being stardust speedway

[@MajinSprite]

@@acidthewolf3603 Stardust Speedway would go hard

[@britishguy54dx]

Instead of Windy Hill Zone, I think we should have gotten a stage from Sonic Colours, such as Tropical Resort or Planet Wisp.

[@Zero14691]

Shadow’s stage should be Space Colony ARK. It could have a Biolizard Easter egg or Finalhazard.

[@PKMN1-4-7-25]

I feel that the black comet from some of the last levels of the shadow the hedgehog game would fit him well

[@xonact8855]

Not that it was ever brought up, but Sonic's skins are actually mandated by SEGA to just be different shades of blue. So Nintendo couldn't get any more creative even if they wanted

[@NinetailsNinetales5TimesFast]

Dawg was getting cooked by a CPU Mario what the hell was happening back there

[@MajinSprite]

@@NinetailsNinetales5TimesFast I'm not good at Sonic, I'm a Link main 🙏🏽😭

[@NinetailsNinetales5TimesFast]

@@MajinSprite IT SHOWS

[@ThunderKnight859]

As an stage could be the platform falling from unleashed while battling egg dragoon

[@CactusMaractus]

Idk if this would make much sense chaos control is an ability that could have a function, but I'd love to see Sonic say "Chaos Control" whenever he uses up taunt, and if he's facing a Shadow he could say "I'll use Your Chaos Control" (reference to the sonic boss fight in sa2)

[@BIGFUNNYMAN1]

Sonic 100 % should be a fighter to have the costumes be spilt between two different characters it would be a no Brainer for classic sonic

[@bbumbs747]

Hey just letting you know the reason why Mega Man's death animation is the way it is, is really just the simple fact that this really is how it looks in the games. When you die orbs do just fly out of him.

[@andrestapia1493]

Tails has a buster-type weapon in Sonic Battle (literally like Mega Man's)

[@StarForce99]

10:15 Tails has the Magic Arm from Sonic Battle which also acts as a blaster too.

[@ModernTyrannosaurus]

Honestly, Sonic deserves to have Mario/Pokemon/Fire Emblem levels of representation in Smash. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Amy, Shadow, Metal Sonic, and if I had it my way, my GOATS Team Chaotix as a sort of Pokemon Trainer type fighter where they can swap out.

[@conradojavier7547]

Sonic Himself should be Rework as Sonic & Tails, just like Rosalina & Ice Climber's Moveset.

[@MajinSprite]

@conradojavier7547 This is a cool concept but I feel like it would be doing them a disservice since they're both pretty unique characters. If anything add Tails to Sonic's up special maybe

[@Zero_de_Nova]

To be fair...Sonic has one of the most Rediculus Moveset ever.....aka Forward Smash HItbox and his Speed outruns Counters.

[@SylviaGrome]

But hey maybe the next Smash game will change his move set using some of Sonic’s new attacks from Frontiers

[@Azureblue25]

11:42 Scenario 4 is what we should’ve gotten in my opinion.

[@BluShiGuy]

I think it would be cool to turn Sonic into an ice climbers type character. With Tails following behind him, replacing his recovery with the tailscopter.

[@orangeslash1667]

That would be extremely broken.

[@MustacheDLuffy]

I don’t think he should be but he could help fly sonic to the stage as his recovery vs magical floating spring

[@heitorsant1759]

Yk it's kinda funny how the first sonic movie references smash more than smash references Sonic

[@dangangalaxy9759]

I would actually far prefer Eggmanland from Sonic Unleashed as an Eggman stage. Look it up. I think THAT perfectly encapsulates Eggman more than any other stage in the franchise. Plus, its inclusion would increase the chance of my favorite boss theme of all time being added to Smash (Egg Dragoon)

[@CoffyThecat]

for shadow i would say he would use a Chaos emeralds and the gun bullets are magical

[@officialkirbyfan6899]

His brawl animations and voice were so much better

[@OrangeToadGamer]

Love the ideas in this video, I personally think that if we get another Sonic character, it would be Shadow since he's at the height of his popularity right now due to the Year of Shadow and Sonic Movie 3

[@MajinSprite]

@OrangeToadGamer Hopefully he'll be in smash 6

[@levert2457]

Strong arguments for blaze the cat mainly before anything especially before the trash fire 06 she was a Sega Nintendo exclusive character that by itself should give her points to be recommended. Plus if push comes to shove she makes a decent echo fighter better than shadow because everybody wants him to do his own thing after all he looks exactly like Sonic that would be absolutely pointless if they give him the same moveset so yeah blaze over tails and knuckles but under eggman and Shadow is non-existent in my personal opinion. And I hate the people forget that fact that she has two games that are still a Nintendo exclusive to this day and everyone ignores that because of silver bullshit.