Sonic Mania FORCES its Way Into the Timeline | A Line Through Time

[@nevandempsey9557]

Great video! You accidentally referred to the modern universe as Earth-2, and mania as Earth-1, in the beginning of your Forces timeline explanation at the end. Anyway, so much work probably went into this, I can't believe that this channel isn't bigger!

[@The4thSnake]

Probably because I make obvious mistakes like that!

[@tonyt1616]

Yeah, I immediately noticed that...

[@KKhaotic]

@TheLegendkiller the guy that said dumb *** is just brain dead

[@SketchHusk]

@@The4thSnake ...Or it's just the fact that struggling with comprehension while lining up unnecessarily complex stories were killing our heads to the point of even remaining lined up ourselves, is it?

[@DWithDiagonalStroke]

@@The4thSnake can you do the extended sonic timeline again?

[@jahsehgravestone9899]

“Big is assassinated” Gold

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

ㄒ卄丨匚匚 boy is dead.

[@kirbysmith64]

Hah, you all wish.

[@kered2108]

Froggy betrayed him!!!

[@KennethV2000]

shutup lol

[@Ayuraos]

乇乂ㄒ尺卂 ㄒ卄丨匚匚 hell ye

[@okamiodonnell9153]

I still like to think that Classic Sonic is still the same one from Generations. The ending of Gens had Classic Sonic and Classic Tails go back to their time from a portal, most likely causing a timeline split. So now there's a split taken place after Classic's perspective in Generations and includes Mania and his perspective in Forces. He was taken to his original time in Forces and was obviously sent back at the end.

[@lpfan4491]

i honestly like to think that too.it wouldnt even be that far out of the window that the timeline works under rule1 that its one singular line(like how 06 got erased),but it changed to rule2(creating alternate universes) for the sole instance of repairing itself

[@AleT118]

Yeah, while i do agree 100% with you i myself really don't get the thing of the original Phantom Rubies existing in two dimensions at the same time. I like to think that the Phantom Ruby in Mania is one of Modern Eggman's prototypes, that somehow ended up sending itself into the Classic World. Considering that Infinite in the Shadow Story mentions that the examination and such aren't ready yet, yet the Ruby being able to create an entire level makes sense, since that's what the same thing that the Ruby does in Mania, along with an early stage of Null Space that the Final Super Sonic fight is done in.

[@lpfan4491]

i just stick to it actually being the real phantom ruby and it just reality/timehopping from classic timeline to modern timeline,since.....well,we never actually saw any confirmation about the stones whereabouts in forces if it was a prototype and it traveled alongside classic sonic

[@weebisherror5110]

There is a prototype one that only sertant people can use. And the original one that anyone can possess

[@kingcatzak]

It's obvious that it's the same sonic people need to stop over thinking the story

[@demknux]

R.I.P 1998 to 2017 He died looking for his Pollywoog Pal

[@TiStardust]

"Since Tails is icapable of fighting, I'll place it after Forces." I'm dead.

[@The4thSnake]

Yeah, rip.

[@tonyt1616]

@@ericracolta4501 Well think of it like Sonic 3 & Knuckles, Two Halves of the same Adventure, Part 1 and Part 2. Plus it fits Snake's guidelines.

[@tonyt1616]

@@ericracolta4501 The Same can be done to Sonic 1, but in reverse order. Sega probably stopped doing that for Sonic 3 based on development and to not repeat the same mistake that they did for the prequels.

[@tonyt1616]

@@ericracolta4501 This can probably explain why Sonic 4 is Episodic, because each of the prequels are in parts: Sonic 1(MD) Sonic 1(MS/GG) _Some unrelated adventures._ Sonic CD* _Some more unrelated adventures._ Sonic 2(MS/GG) Sonic 2(MD) Sonic 3 Part 1 Sonic & Knuckles(Sonic 3 Part 2) _Literally just Sonic Triple Trouble, but is [mostly] unreleated._ Sonic 3 & Knuckles(Knuckles' Adventure)** _Many unrelated adventures later._ Sonic 4 Episode 1 Sonic 4 Episode 2 _Literally all other games presented in the timeline._ _*Based on the timeline, and it's related to Sonic 4's events. I think Sega tried moving it because of Tails in the release, but going off of the original release this is true in the case of the original timeline._ _**Ok that was me, I found out that Sonic & Tails and Knuckles become actual friends in Triple Trouble, whereas in Sonic 3 they form a minor alliance (basically a temporary truce to get the Master Emerald back, because an entire Island was literally hanging in the balance) but they become friends later in Triple Trouble if not then at the end of Knuckles' Sonic 3 "Episode" where Sonic saves his life, this is also backed up by the release order and cutscenes between the 3 games._

[@reddy64]

That could be translated into eggman kidnapping tails as being a plan b.

[@PhantomRubyMusic]

I think that in Generations created another timeline/dimension that lead into Mania. TL 1: Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3&K etc. Until Generations. After Generations Eggman found the Phantom Ruby and Forces happened TL 2: Sonic 1, CD, 2, Generations. After Generations, when Classic Sonic went back to his own time, he went through the events of 3&K and Mania. After Mania, the Phantom Ruby got transported to TL 1 and a few months before Forces. Classic Sonic also got transported to TL 1 but arrived when Tails got attacked by Chaos. -That could explain the 'other' dimension part I guess-

[@Semudara]

Just wondering, is there a reason you believe Generations would take place before 3&K? I kinda figured it would take place after 3&K, but before Adventure-- or rather, given the timeline split, before Mania.

[@girexx7979]

Because there is no classic knuckles in generations, of course.

[@PikachuGamerSMT]

My theory is that knuckles chaotix is after mania before mania plus

[@Prime_Legend]

I'm pretty sure Mania Sonic and Gens classic sonic are the same. Even the Japanese website confirms this. Sonic uses the same time travel logic as dragon ball. Changing a bit of any timeline will make that timeline it's own completely separate timeline. Since Time eater messed up Time, everything that happens from S&K3 forward won't happen to Gens classic sonic(his timeline had split and basically become it's own timeline. Gens classic/Mania Sonic will have way different events e.g Hard Boiled Heavies saga which didn't happen with Modern Sonic in the Classic era) Also, Chronicles is non canon. The game wasn't even made by Sonic Team and not even single of Sonic team's members were watching what they were doing. Also, Ken Penders was involved in this game's development, wanting to add his own elements from in the games. If so, I hardly doubt Sonic Team will even approve his ideas as canon.

[@TiStardust]

"Everything is canon." Including Chronicles.

[@chiharris2810]

@Non-Ugandan Knuckles The comics and other media were NEVER canon to the games unless you count the old American canon from the 90s as the true canon which by this point makes no sense.

[@JazzyWaffles]

Ken was not involved at all. His story from the comics was ripped off without permission, and he threw a hissy fit and sued Sega. Sega's legal team messed up so bad they got fired, and now Chronicles is stuck in limbo where the concepts and characters from it can't be reused ever again or Ken Penders can sue because he legally owns said characters and concepts.

[@thrasher9534]

@Super Mario Michael the comics and TV shows aren't they there own universe

[@HelenFire420]

When you realize that the sonic cannon is more convoluted than kingdom hearts.

[@tanyaharmon6739]

Oh no

[@Espio]

What happened to Shade? Simple, Eggman had another enforcer, his name was Ken.

[@SparkleChord]

I didn't think any video game timeline could possibly be more complicated than the Zelda timeline. I was wrong.

[@The4thSnake]

Street Fighter's pretty bad too.

[@MissCrepis]

brilliant. rip big

[@The4thSnake]

Rest In PH3.01

[@RDZRmsc]

Bigs not dead The4theSnake just h8s big.

[@MilkIsTheOne]

@@The4thSnake Who's Froggy's keeper?

[@numbug1234]

2 things: 1: "Oh, you're *that* Sonic from another dimension!" I.E. Tails knows this Sonic, even if indirectly. Only time we've gotten any indication that Tails knows of any other Sonics is the time he met with Classic Sonic in Generations, and it was just that one Sonic. Apart from that, it HAS been confirmed that Mania Sonic, Forces Classic Sonic, and Generations Classic Sonic are all one and the same. 2: "Long time no see!" You would not believe how many times people say that to each other, but it indicates that outside of the games Sonic and co. don't meet up with each other that often, and indeed from Adventure all the way to Unleashed (and implicitly Forces too) Sonic never starts his adventure with Tails, and always meets up with him at some point during it. Plane crash, breaking Sonic out of jail, actively tracking Sonic down as he runs at super speed, just coincidentally being in Soleanna at the same time, just coincidentally being in Apotos at the same time, radioing Sonic to get rescued, etc. etc.

[@devanarcher4196]

The Phantom Ruby being a world-hopping artifact kind of reminds me of the Dark Spark from Transformers. EDIT: Right after I typed that he said the Phantom Ruby "pulls a Dark Spark" XD

[@jinkuixtrupador7495]

The real question is...WHY IS THERE NO HUMANS IN SONIC FORCES ( not counting Eggman )

[@jinkuixtrupador7495]

Those DAMN writers

[@lpfan4491]

sonic team cant be assed to do something interessting with gun anymore,thats why

[@jinkuixtrupador7495]

LPFan Makes sense

[@Prime_Legend]

Sonic games take place in random settings. Sometimes it takes place in the Human world and sometimes the anthro world.

[@The4thSnake]

There's apparently been a comment from Sonic Team about there being two worlds or something, but if Iizuka had any involvement there, it's not worth paying attention to.

[@devanarcher4196]

I would just like to point out that humans have always been part of Sonic's world since the Classics, on a planet similar to our own but obviously very different. And just because we can't see humans in the stages doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because we don't see humans EVERYWHERE in MegaMan, Shantae, Pokémon, or Zelda doesn't mean they don't exist. Does not seeing any Toads within the levels of Mario games mean those take place on a different world that's not primarily inhabited by Toads? No. That different worlds shtick is pretty dumb. Humans have actually been the predominant species like the real world because Forces is the first game to reveal a mass-load of anthro-animals as almost all of the anthros introduced prior have been playable characters at least once (usually their first appearance). The original Sonic game had a feel like a 1980s movie, western and/or animé, which takes place on a world like our own but with a particular woodland critter running around being special and more notably different than the other normal animals, and that particulary special animal is trying to save his woodland friends and even the whole world from a kooky scientist who resembles an egg too much for his own good and sanity.

[@justbny9278]

Devan Archer go after Cybershell's videos about the differences between American and Japanese Sonic and you'll get why that's a thing.

[@emilimarc]

@Non-Ugandan Knuckles Eggman was in clasic games.

[@twiilit_]

If I had to guess, Mania takes place after Generations in a timeline split.

[@The4thSnake]

I already disproved that in this video.

[@girexx7979]

MANIA AND GENERATIONS SONIC LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME!!!!!

[@jamariwhite949]

i think mania happens after generations but Classic Sonic mustve got caught in a rift through time when he got back to South Island. But as soon as Mania Part 1 is done, Sonic Forces starts, then when Classic disappears, Mania Part 2 begins.

[@MilkIsTheOne]

@@The4thSnake Is TSR takes place in the Original Universe?

[@reubenlyimo]

marvellous job with all the sonic timeline related videos they make a ton of sense now

[@kered2108]

14:50 Lol, now we just need to see their hands. Especially knuckles’s

[@BigBossMan538]

Didn't know about that Bean lore. Nice, learned something.

[@driveasandwich6734]

I think the answer IS alternate timelines, and the reason the Sonic 06 reset specifically changed the timeline is because at the end, Sonic and Elise put Solaris out, they pretty much kill the time god. That's gotta have some impact on their timeline.

[@JazzyWaffles]

I think the main difference between regular time travel and what happened in Generations is the Time Eater. He DESTROYED time, so badly that SONIC 06, WHICH NEVER HAPPENED, came BACK. If it's that powerful, then why couldn't the Time Eater's shenanigans also cause the timeline to split since Past Eggman now knows what his future self will do and can decide to do something different post-classic era? This means he goes after the Phantom Ruby instead of continuing with whatever he planned on doing next, kicking Mania, Forces, Mania Plus's Encore Mode, and Mania Adventures into gear.

[@SFCmrRaccoon]

Colors DS Is Canon Due To The Burst Wisp Was In Forces

[@The4thSnake]

I'm aware that Colours is canon.

[@irishuisman1450]

Just because the burst wisp is canon doesn't immediately mean that Colors DS is canon. It just means that Sonic never used the burst wisp in Colors.

[@GeneFOX70]

@@irishuisman1450 actually it does but if you're correct that means Colors, Secret Rings, and Black Knight aren't canon because Sonic mentioned the events in Generations.

[@irishuisman1450]

Frosty no, that means they _are_ canon. If one game clearly references another, then those games are canon to eachother. I'm mostly saying that Colors DS isn't canon because the story doesn't make sense with the rest of the timeline. All of Sonic's friends, even Blaze and Silver, are at the amusement park? Blaze is a princess, I highly doubt that she'd leave her dimension just to go to an amusement park built by a bad guy, and Silver himself said that his future is brighter now, meaning that he'd have no reason to travel back. Not to mention when he came back in Forces, it was to prevent another bad future, which means that Colors DS doesn't fit in the timeline. As for the Burst wisp, Lost World introduced a lot of new wisps. I myself have never played the game because I don't have the right console, but the Burst wisp could just as easily have been introduced in Lost World. And even if it wasn't, who's to say that they just didn't show themselves until Forces?

[@GeneFOX70]

@@irishuisman1450 but the events/some characters of Colors DS and Wii have been referenced and appear in different canon games.

[@MillzBC]

That bit about sharing with your enemies got me to subscribe

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

There’s one Sonic game you forgot in the main sonic timeline and it’s not dr Robotink’s mean bean machine, it’s Sonic Waku Waku Patrol Car

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

@Super Mario Michael 2 I wish I were, but it's actually true

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

@Super Mario Michael 2 searched up, Sonic Waku Waku Patrol Car, you'll see

[@blaa6]

14:53 Gotta love the example you showed.

[@OmegaOptimusSupreme]

Wasn't expecting a Dark Spark reference in there but that indeed was where my head went as well when you started explaining the Phantom Ruby.

[@The4thSnake]

I actually planned to end the overview by claiming the ruby travelled to the G1 universe afterwards, but the music was too short and I didn't want people to think the ruby moved on at the end of the story for real.

[@Couch_Banana]

10:01 I like to headcanon that after the whole deal with the Twilight Cage and Nocturnus Clan, Shade decided to travel the world to fully experience it.

[@SonicPAJ]

7:30 "Alternate Timelines = Alternate Universes" Ah! I made a whole video 'bout that back in the day!

[@mrs.sandman.9166]

Here's the explanation for all of this, The writers from colors to forces (Graff & Pontac) were confirmed to know nothing about Sonic and were conformed to not even bother researching it either. This is why the timeline in the game feels so forced and doesn't make sense in the timeline because they don't put the work to research the timeline. Its nothing to look too deep into because that would mean the back stories of the characters in this game doesn't actually exist. That is why chaos did nothing in the game because they most likely didn't know what to do about nor care about it. And the characters don't act the way they should because they don't acknowledge their back story and character arc. So there, that would mean most of this video was pointless.

[@mushroomfusion245]

I am SO, SORRY for delaying this video.

[@mushroomfusion245]

But how does Tails recognize that Sonic if he never met him. and 2, How does he know that he’s from another dimension? and 3 (and Knuckles), what happened to Forces Classic Sonic after he went back to his own timeline? Wouldn’t he have experienced the modern games? What’s even the difference between the two dimensions?

[@mushroomfusion245]

Should I be pinned so that everyone can know who delayed this video? Not saying I should, but just a suggestion.

[@The4thSnake]

I would, but I needed to pin another person who pointed out a huge fuck up that I need people to see so they don't keep pestering me about it.

[@mushroomfusion245]

The4thSnake how about a heart to make up for it?

[@mushroomfusion245]

And thoughts on my questions?

[@megaplays2748]

Holy crap, man. There we go. This is THE Sonic Timeline. However, there are a few nitpicks with this and also some things I want to talk about. I do agree with the possible placement of Sonic Chronicles being placed before Unleashed. I think it just makes a lot how sense. However, Unleashed's intro is the only thing that hints at Eggman's takeover. The rest of the game shows everyone semi peaceful -besides the whole planet being shattered into 7 pieces- and even the residents of Mazuri make an utter joke out of Eggman. Maybe Unleashed is set very far from Chronicles and Eggman is about to make a full onslaught from space for one last attempt to retake the world. But there's one thing I want to talk about. Classic Sonic and the Phantom Ruby. I 100% agree about how Generations creates a timeline split causing Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic to have separate dimensions. There is actually somethings that help prove this IN Generations itself before Mania and Forces are ever included. -Classic Robotnik officially changes his name to Eggman right before the final boss of Generations once Classic Sonic and Classic Tails see him co-piloting the Time Eater. However, Robotnik never changes his name to Eggman until around Sonic Adventure 2, which is set years later. Modern Sonic and Modern Tails don't recall ever going to White Space and teaming up with their older selves when they were kids so either the events made them lose their memories or the events of Generations caused another timeline from it. Another thing to go with this is how Eggman finds the Time Eater in space immediately after Colors yet he doesn't recognize it as a beast that his future self used with his help. A final factor to take into account is that at the end of Generations, both Eggmans get into a giant debate and start arguing with each other. It's most likely that Modern Eggman explained his previous failures starting from Sonic 4 all the way to Sonic Colors in hopes that even an alternate version of himself could finally defeat Sonic once and for all. This leads to Classic Eggman avoiding the likes of Chaos, Shadow, Dark Gaia, and the Wisps and focusing on something entirely new; The Phantom Ruby. Now here's the one thing I have against this video. There are actually TWO Phantom Rubies. Yes. TWO. Why is that? Well. Let's think about this. In Sonic Forces, Classic Sonic appears from a strange distorted portal out of nowhere. I immediately assumed this to be the portal from Sonic Mania which makes sense. However, in the Sonic prequel comics, Eggman finds the Phantom Ruby rights before the Jackal Squad arrive and become his private mercenaries. The beginning of Sonic Forces ends with a time jump to 6 months later. By then Classic Sonic appears. However, Episode Shadow shows that the Jackal Squad joined Eggman at least 3 months prior to Forces's beginning. Which means that the Phantom Ruby's arrival and Classic Sonic's arrival are 9 months apart. You said that Classic Sonic ended up in Modern Sonic's world for 9 months without a clue of what was going on. However, wouldn't someone have seen a younger version of Sonic going around? Someone would most likely have contacted Sonic or any of his friends to find Classic Sonic and they would have at least 3 months to try to actually help him get back to his home dimension. Yet in Forces, we see Classic Sonic arrive in a strange portal with no conclusion other than "It's the same portal that took him in Sonic Mania." Why else would he appear in a strange portal? It doesn't make any logical sense. Now that that's out of the way, let's address the Phantom Ruby. How would it be possible for the Phantom Ruby to appear in Modern Sonic's world/Earth 1 if its arrival is 9+ months before Classic Sonic's arrival. What? Was Classic Sonic just trapped in limbo for 9 months? Here's my answer; the Phantom Ruby from Forces is Earth 1's Phantom Ruby. Think about it. Earth 2's Phantom Ruby has no explanation as to why it suddenly appeared on Angel Island. Has it been there ever since Sonic the Hedgehog 3? I doubt it. I theorize that if the Phantom Ruby stays dormant for too long without a host (i.e. Infinite or Heavy King), it will teleport in search of a new host. This happened in both Earth 1 and Earth 2 and that is how both Eggmans found the Phantom Rubies. So, then.... That means..... The Phantom Ruby from Earth 2 that brought Classic Sonic to Earth 1.... Is still out there..... In Modern Sonic's world.... I highly doubt Sega will bother bringing that up, tho

[@The4thSnake]

I disagree on the Generations causing a split idea. Yes, Sonic, Tails and Eggman don't recognise any of this stuff from their time as the past versions of themselves, but time travel stories tend to be written as if the characters from the furthest into the future are the first versions of themselves to experience these events, even if Silver's presence clearly indicates a further future whose versions of the characters would have gone throught his long before. It's kind of a necessity in such stories because otherwise, no one could ever go back in time and succeed because their future self would have already done so, thus negatin the need for the present version to do so. Perhaps Classic Sonic really WAS trapped in limbo for nine months, or time passes differently there, or perhaps the ruby simply flung Sonic out of the gap between realities into a different time from when it arrived.

[@megaplays2748]

The4thSnake Exactly. You're saying that the characters from the furthest in the future -in this case, Modern Sonic, Tails, and Eggman- are the "first versions of themselves" to experience those events. This means that the Modern characters didn't experience the events of Generations until later in time. Meanwhile, since the Time Eater went in a point in time that it shouldn't have -that being back when Sonic was still a Classic kid-, it created a timeline split.

[@The4thSnake]

Yes, aside from the split, which I still feel I definitively proved is not how time travel works in Sonic.

[@megaplays2748]

The4thSnake Wait. I'm confused. Are you saying that time travel does or does not create alternate timeline in Sonic games?

[@megaplays2748]

The4thSnake Here's something I don't understand. You created over 10 different alternate timelines from CD to Forces. Yet one of the ONLY timeline splits that actually has a huge effect on the story you disregard as ever actually happening. How can you say that time travel doesn't work like this in the Sonic games even Silver has changed the future HOW MANY TIMES??? You're confusing, man. Wtf

[@Dede-qy2yx]

BIG THE CAT IS ASSASSINATED BY ONE OF EGGMANS MERCENARIES

[@uranus007]

My theory is that after generations, Classic Sonic travels to Earth 2 (Mania and Forces) in 12AS, this universe removes Sonic 3 from the timeline and replaces it with Mania. This also removes all future events from the timeline excluding Knuckles Chaotix and The Tails games Classic Sonic travels to Earth 1 in 12AS during Sonic Blast and that timeline continues as normal. (After Forces happens)

[@SplatKoopa]

And then after Sonic Forces, the Sonic Mania Adventures animation series begins after classic sonic travels back

[@goojo173]

Splat Koopa Well, it’s either Mania Adventures is canon, or Sonic Mania’s Encore Mode. They can’t both be canon at the same time. It’s up to Sega to tell us which is canon. Ugh. Why does this shit have to be so complicated?!?!

[@ukyoize]

You know, sonic and elise at the end of '06 didn't time traveled themselfs, they just apeared in the past after solarises defeat. It's possible that chaos emerald timetravel works by "been here all along" rules and solaris timetravel works by "replacing" rules.

[@AnimaMandala]

I just watched both videos back-to-back, and I'm impressed at how much work that must've taken. But when you consider how the developers come up with half-assed explanations like, "Everyone had, like, amnesia", or, "The canon is in constant flux", it's clear they don't have continuity in mind when developing games. Recently I've come to think that the games are really self-contained stories unless evidence states otherwise. Like, I can see the Mega Drive/Genesis trilogy--plus & Knuckles and CD--as one canon, with most of the Game Gear/Master System titles as another. Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 start a new canon, including Heroes, Shadow, the Advance trilogy and Battle. Sonic 4, Rush, Rivals, Riders and Storybook series are each their own thing. Sonic Colours starts yet another canon, leading into Generations. And the last set of games to share a connection are Mania and Forces. That leaves the rest as standalone titles. It's not important which game a character is introduced in, or what specific history they have in each. We don't need a reestablished past to know who these characters are. And just making a reference to a previous game doesn't put them in the same universe either, but may rather be a "what if" branch-off. I know this is a bizarre explanation, but is it really any worse than a single, convoluted and oft contradicting timeline?

[@worldsfunniestvideosandbes3684]

Now that Frontiers, Superstars, Dream Team is out. In addition, Generations is getting a remake (and including shadow as a playable character, it will include some future stages), this timeline needs a really big update.

[@Riley.mk07]

I think that Sonic Mania takes place between Sonic the Fighters and Sonic Adventure in Earth 1. In Sonic Mania, the heavy magician can turn into 1 of 3 characters. These charcters are Bean the Dynamite, Bark the Polar Bear, and Fang The Weasel. It is possible that the phantom ruby in Sonic Mania is a prototype. It is also possible that the phantom ruby prototype from Sonic Mania was destroyed why Sonic was in the portal. The reason the phantom ruby sent Sonic to the future is because it sensed the other prototypes, maybe?... I mean the phantom ruby can do a lot of things so this is probably one of the things it can do? The phantom ruby was found on angel island was probably because Modern Eggman didn't want it anymore and somehow got it on angel island.

[@guyonyoutube3850]

Here's what I think: The Classic Sonic in Generations and Mania/Forces are the same Classic Sonic, and the reason Tails says the line implying that Classic is from another dimension is simply a case of bad memory over 6 months and also the line from Silver saying Tails lost it. Mania and Classic's side of Forces takes place in between Sonic R and Sonic Pocket Adventure.

[@PhantomRubyMusic]

I can't believe Big is fucking dead.

[@guilhermefranco2930]

Morris Koning Probably he's looking for Froggy. He hasn't appeared in Sonic Generations, also. Maybe Sonic doesn't like him any more. I understand you, Sonic

[@ToaArcan]

I think the logic with Classic Sonic being from "Another dimension" is that Classic Sonic's timeline diverges after Generations. Because Classic Eggman has _met_ his future self, he decides to do different plans instead of following the same path. So for this version of Classic Sonic, it goes: Classic Era -> Generations -> Mania -> Forces -> Mania Adventures And Mania Plus is in there... somewhere.

[@bakedbeans5494]

Never happened.

[@cryptknight400]

Sonic Chronicles isn't canon, but otherwise this a decent effort in trying to make a timeline for Sonic.

[@The4thSnake]

What do you base its lack of canonicity on?

[@cryptknight400]

The former community manager Kevin Eva stated that fans should consider it an alternate universe due to it's troubled production. They did say the canon shifts constantly, but given how it ends, the general negative opinion on it, and the issues of how it would fit in a timeline along with the legal issues accompanying referencing it because of Penders, I doubt it is canon.

[@The4thSnake]

Community manager of what? Sega, Sonic, Bioware?

[@cryptknight400]

Of Sega Europe in 2015.

[@Dreq458]

they can't even revisit it due to lawsuits with an archie writer. it sure isn't canon now.

[@jambastion1285]

The only explication there could be about where does Mania take place, is that Generations split the timeline (same concept that Dragon Ball uses when someone goes to the past) so now Classic Sonic from Generations is part of a different timeline after Generations. I think the dimension thing was probably made to not confuse people about the timeline in case there's a Mania sequel and at the same time, it explains why Modern Sonic or Modern Eggman in the Adventure games doesn't have any memories about things like the Egg Dragoon, Shadow or Time Eater. Also, Classic Sonic in Forces is indeed the same from Generations, the Japanese website of Forces state that Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic teamed up before to save their world and now they are teaming up again in Forces. Also, don't know if we can even count Chronicles as canon, being made by Bioware, its full of plotholes, even more than any other Sonic game. For example, It states that Sonic and Shadow teamed up to defeat Eggman in the events of Adventure 2.

[@The4thSnake]

But I already proved that that's not how time alteration works in Sonic.

[@jambastion1285]

The4thSnake I know, but Time Travel seems to be a very tricky concept. Even Silver in Sonic 06 had like his own timeline the moment he come back with Blaze to trap Iblis. Unless Sonic failed, there's no reason for Silver's future to still be destroyed after Sonic supposly saved Elise. Even though, that doesnt change the fact that, regardless of how time travel works in the Sonic series, Classic Sonic in Forces is the same from Generations stated by the Japanese official website of Forces. ~~Hope I am not sounding like an some nerdy fanboy~~

[@lpfan4491]

timetravel and timealteration is actually an interessting topic in this series.depending on the way its achieved,it works diffrently.in cd,there are two variations of the story that make sence in canon:a.sonic ignores the robotizers and goes for the timestones to create a good future-timeline or b. he destroys them and eggman collects the stones instead to create a bad future-timeline.and this absolutely has to be the case,or else there wouldnt be a speedway bad future in sonic4,since the planet was completely freed from eggmans control in cd.then,06 and eggman nega came around the corner and presented the second way(the linear timetravel.it needs no explanation).then,generations destroyed the space-time continuum and the timeline had to make an exception while rebuilding and split because classic and modern desynced way too much over the course of the game(or at least thats what has to be the case,or else forces is a bigger plothole than it already is).3 diffrent behaviours for 3 diffrent siturations

[@STikER326]

Sonic Chronicles is not filled with plotholes, just some text mistakes. It's not that fatal. It's non-canon because of Ken Penders.

[@shihanana]

Your profile pic fits with yout comment

[@reddy64]

I never completed generations and assumed that the modern characters thought that classic is from an alternate universe just because classic is small.

[@nightshardthefanguidebrony847]

1. im pretty sure the shadow DLC showed that shadow was trapped in infinite's virtual world for 6 months during stage 3 2. you misspoke your earth 1s and 2s when going into the timeline at the start of 13:00 You said Earth-1 instead of Earth-2 for sonic mania (only pointing this out just to avoid more stress) 3. are the sonic IDW comics canon as they not only follow on from forces but also have certain flashbacks to past events to games? i mean it definitely fits more with the games as oppose to the archie comics

[@GonicWarrior921]

@the4thsnake, as much I agree on your logic on the timeline, it just sucks that Iizuka/Sonic Team insists more and more at panels that a split timeline occurred. And the only way I can see this making sense without contradicting passed instances was to go with another convoluted theory a friend a mine threw out..... that perhaps the Time Eater's powers affects the timeline differently from when other characters use Chaos Control; I.E. Magic based time travel (the Emeralds, Time Stones) makes singular timeline alterations, while cosmic/quantum based time travel (Time Eater) makes parallel worlds tangent off. Ugh, yes it makes things more complicated then needed, but it's the only way I see them having their cake and eating it too.

[@davantebarbain3216]

5:37(JOJO WIERD TIME STOPING NOISES) DIO: BRING FORTH ZA WARUDO JOTARO: GOOD GRIEF SHUT THE HELL UP DIO: IMPOSSIBLE HOW CAN YOU MOVE IN STOPPED TIME

[@mrsduck_man]

14:15 the best part

[@The4thSnake]

This cannot be disputed.

[@RDZRmsc]

Big is a hated character after all👌

[@EnergyTheFoxProductions]

The only reason Crisis City was in Generations because the time eater can take places from time and combine them

[@pickleboi934]

In my own headcanon i just ignore tails saying that classic sonic is from another dimension considering the writers dont know the difference between timetravel and dimension hopping. So in my own version of the timeline i have sonic mania take place after knuckles chaotix and sonic the fighters because of the cameo's of bark, bean and fang in mania. The original metal sonic is also fought in stardust speedway again in sonic mania so it could be implied that metal sonic from sonic 4 ep metal was defeated by sonic somewhere after mania and not cd. Lastly sonic mania has sonic and the others in the classic style so it takes place before sonic 4

[@papakelso]

14:15 Celebrate good times c'mon

[@RedSpectre]

I really wish Sega would fix the timeline. Maybe with another generations game that sets a definitive timeline, connecting both modern and classic sonic’s universes. Maybe through the phantom ruby and it’s dimension/time hopping properties. It hurts my brain

[@i_play_projectm]

I think that when Eggman and Tails call Classic Sonic "from another dimension" is just another instance of lazy writing, and they meant another time period. Modern Sonic's generations pun is too on the nose for the writers to establish that this Sonic isn't from the same dimension. And there are other references to the generations incident. And also, characters talk about Classic Sonic like they knew him before, which they did, further invalidating the idea that the Classic Sonic in Forces is a different one from the one in generations.

[@zemchia]

I'm gonna leave some of my own thoughts about your timeline here, so you can address them the next time you look at the Sonic timeline: 1. Sonic 4 is non-canonical because it was never finished. I'm sure all of you know, but there was supposed to be an Episode 3, but since that didn't happen, Episode 2 ended on a cliffhanger that never got resolved. 2. Sonic Chronicles is non-canonical due to issues with former-Archie comic writer, Ken Penders. To keep the whole issue under the rug, Sega has declared Chronicals non-canon.

[@justinXLJL-eu8bl]

your theory generations creating a split timeline for sonic mania make sense I mean if classic sonic was the sonic from generation then that ultimately disconnect the modern sonic games and the classic sonic games

[@L1n_]

But if you count mania adventure, mania adventure's Sonic is Classic Sonic in Sonic Forces, just look at his pose at the end of Forces and start of Mania adventure.

[@emirturkmen4524]

I think sonic Forces takes place in another universe becouse characters act differently from "themselfs" , sonic mania is a sequel to sonic 3K (it is on the main timeline) and green hill zone isn't on south island (or an island to begin with).

[@SonicPAJ]

I both agree and disagree with you on the Classic Sonic account. I believe the "Generations" game created an alternate time-line for the Classic Sonic to return to. In this new time-line, this Classic Sonic doesn't experience the "Pocket Adventure" nor "Sonic 4" but instead Mania. But I still believe they are the same Classic Sonic. Also in the Sonic Game Universe, Time and Dimension and World are pretty interchangeable.

[@The4thSnake]

Except that I spent time at the start of this video explaining that there is only one timeline.

[@megagustman]

*+The4thSnake* Except for the fact that you could have been wrong? I mean, why would you believe that your hypothesis is correct and everybody else that is more in favor for the "split time-line" is wrong? You aren't any body from the writer staff of Sonic the Hedgehog, meaning that we have to take *your opinion* with a grain of salt, not theirs.

[@ahrichards5241]

I'd personally shift the character ages up a year or two, it just seems right for some reason

[@Lifeofchris06]

It’s the same classic sonic it’s just classic sonic and robotnik know they’re future so robotnik/classic egg man changes his actions by finding the phantom ruby creating an alternate timeline starting with mania they call classic sonic sonic from another dimension to simplify he’s from another timeline

[@irishuisman1450]

I honestly think that Classic Sonic from Generations is the same one from Mania and Forces. The way you explained your first option that you said wasn’t logical actually is possible, but when adding something that you overlooked. The time travel shenanigans from ‘06 were almost entirely caused by Chaos Emerals (Eggman’s machine was powered by an emerald and Mephiles’ ability most likely works the same way), while everything that happened in Generations was the result of the Time Eater. Taking this into account, it’s not too far-fetched to say that unlike the Chaos Emeralds, the Time Eater can actually make alternate timelines. This would make sense when you think about the Modern versions of Sonic and Tails presumably not remembering anything about the Classic perspective of that game. Not to mention that Modern Tails didn’t recognise Green Hill while Classic Tails entered the portal that went to Green Hill at the end of the game. I think that Classic Sonic and Classic Tails went through all the adventures up until Blast and then got pulled into Generations, altering their timeline and sending them into Mania upon their return. This way the ‘06 timelines are still gone while Classic Sonic is better explained.

[@goojo173]

Iris Huisman Or, maybe the Classic characters seen in Generations are Earth 2 Classic characters. The Earth 1 Classic Sonic may have never had a Generations incident. That explains why Earth 1 Modern characters have no memory of Generations. It makes Sonic’s line “It’s been Generations since I’ve seen you!” make more sense because that IS the exact same Classic Sonic he saw in Generations. As for how the Time Eater could’ve screwed with Earth 2’s timeline despite residing in Earth 1... I don’t fuckin’ know. BUT! He is a time monster, so it’s possible that he can act outside of whichever universe he’s in. After all, fans theorize that the Time Eater is just a small leftover of Solaris after Elise blew the flame out. A God can dick around with whatever universe he pleases with no regards to any rules since he lives outside of them.

[@tomhibbert6486]

Well snake you can say this about sonic forces it somehow makes more since then Injustice god among us it's pretty bad when dc comics can't make a good world takeover story and they get beaten by a blue hedgehog

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

Yeah... no. Sonic forces story is worse than even the actually shitty DC movies, Injustice is one of the greatest of the DC storylines. Forces isn't even a league next to the league next to the league next to the league next to the league next to the league next to the league next to the league that Injustice is a part of.

[@The4thSnake]

SkyTech, you come to my channel, and you disrespect me by talking about Injustice without watching my hour and a half long tear down of that game? I will find you, and I will teach you respect.

[@girexx7979]

Good job placing Mania after 3 and knuckles.

[@kevinbalfe]

7:00 Maybe it was just the devs trying to make a joke.

[@shihanana]

What if all Sega franchises are connected • Jet Set Radio has a playable character that has a sonic skull necklace around his neck • Nights take's place in a different planet ( I think, haven't played nights so...) • Crazy taxi car gets crashed by an asteroid in sonic colors [ Because in the game eggman says that a car with the same license plate as the taxi car in crazy taxi is about to get crushed by an asteroid] Just my theory \_( "_ ) _/ - Edit In sonic adventure theres an advertisment for a hotel with Nights in the name and in sonic adventure 2 Radical Highway I think i've seen a giant Nights statue in the background

[@PRODREDRUM]

So, forces is a sequel to mania, and earth 1 is more complicated than earth 2

[@emanuelaandreeamanta4988]

Super Mario Bros time-line And Mega Man Time-line

[@FireStormDel]

I'd be interested to see if much has changed now following Sonic X Shadow's release, and how/if Sonic Origins' animated cutscenes to link 1, CD, 2, 3, & Knuckles change the timeline given they don't leave much room for the other games from around then. As for 8-bit Sonic 2, I'd argue it'd be better coming after Sonic 3 & Knuckles at earliest since Tails is an established person to Eggman by then to try and get him out the way against him and Sonic, there's just the issue of the title seeming off if it further than the game it's meant to pair with. After all, it's a different story unlike 8-bit Sonic 1 where you could say it was just a different version of that adventure due to Green Hill and Scrap Brain having different designs from the 16-bit original while also containing version-exclusive Zones.

[@bossco839]

I think that after Generations, Classic Sonic and Classic Tails going back in their time and that’s splits the time in 2 dimensions and maybe Tails in Forces know this thanks to ‘06

[@bakedbeans5494]

Nope.

[@noneSonic]

@@bakedbeans5494 ur gay

[@KKhaotic]

Also why are there two 12's 12:52

[@dr_drew_]

Can’t wait for Sonic Frontiers to update this

[@driveasandwich6734]

But what about Sonic Pocket Adventure?

[@Wolfric_Rogers]

Timeline 1 goes 1, CD, 2, 3, PA, 4, advance and so on

[@SkaiCyan]

This is amazing work dude! Bravo! It's making me heavily reconsider my own timeline which was tidy but not so thorough. Maybe I'll do my own video, lol. Great videos, all three of them.

[@The4thSnake]

Thanks. You should go for it. No reason my take has to be the definitive version. I've also done this for a bunch of other series too.

[@kristiaanrees]

14:13 *We did it bois*

[@smashfan3317]

14:15 no Big!!!

[@discountaccountstudios8789]

Sonic mania-sonic forces pre-comics-sonic forces-sonic idw and sonic mania adventures- sonic mania plus

[@devanarcher4196]

To answer your question about the time-line effects of Generations-Mania-Forces being different from what happened with 06, let me quote you something from the marvelous time-travel series of Doctor Who: "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to affect, but actually, from a non-linier, non subjective point of view it is more like a big ball of wibbily wobbly timey wimey...stuff"

[@The4thSnake]

Yeah, but that's just nonsense to cover up the inconsistent time travel rules and to add more whimsy, and it has nothing to do with Sonic.

[@devanarcher4196]

The4thSnake Well in my opinion, it adds more possibilities instead of being super strict and allows for more mind blowing nonsense and fun. AND! Unless we figure out how time travel actually works, who's to say that the rules DON'T get all wonky, twisted, flux, and different depending on the situations? Who's to say it IS a strict progression of cause and affect? We can only theorize at this point. Also reminds me of that episode of the Twilight Zone where that guy tries to save Abraham Lincoln.

[@paulwebb2078]

According to the Japanese Sonic Forces website, Classic Sonic from Forces is the same Classic Sonic from Generations. Plus if Tails had never seen Classic Sonic before, why would he recognize Classic Sonic? EDIT: An alternate explanation is that Modern Sonic confused Classic Sonic in Forces with the Classic Sonic in Generations.

[@Shahars71]

These series of fucking videos is why we shouldn't bother with Sonic's timeline, since even the developers don't give a crap about it.

[@reckless_nin]

i think That mania sonic got a good ending in CD while Modern Sonic got the Bad Ending and i say that. Earth 1(main timeline i guess)-Sonic 1,CD,Sonic 2,3&K,Modern SOnic games',Generation Earth 2(alternate timeline)Sonic 1,CD,Generations,3K

[@M.N.O.93]

At the end of sonic generations sonic doesn’t snap back to the past. Since he’s seen the future he creates a new timeline/ universe. This is where sonic mania comes in. At the end of that he goes through a portal that brings him back to the main timeline in forces. After that he goes back to his own dimension. Oh and spoilers I guess.

[@The4thSnake]

I already explained why split timelines aren't a thing in Sonic.

[@megagustman]

*+ The4thSnake* After you used split timelines in your attempt to explain Sonic 06, yeah...

[@aaaasStuff]

bs = before sonic. as= after sonic

[@pipday9790]

This makes sonic forces story a bit better

[@The4thSnake]

Thank you.

[@beesbeesbeesbeesbees]

i love the guitar riff

[@SmokieByron]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOT BIG!!!! THE CAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@RDZRmsc]

Don't worry he not dead

[@anarchimation1448]

little did SEGA or Iizuka or whoever wrote the story realize how seriously the fanbase took the franchise...

[@girexx7979]

Just to help you, if sonic boom WAS canon then it would be in a seperate timeline right before or some time after sonic colours. (I think.)

[@sassykosmo1793]

One oversight you never commented on in either of these two videos is the ages of the classic characters; Sonic Jam's character house lists them as follows: Sonic 16, Tails 8, Knuckles 15,, and Robotnik unknown. Knuckles' age in particular is also stated as 15 in the Sonic 3 instruction manual.

[@The4thSnake]

I'm more incluned to accept the modern games' assertion that Knuckles is older than Sonic, than Sonic Jam's claims to the contrary.

[@sonicman4367]

I'm Sorry to shoot down Spinball but in Sonic Spinball in the bonus game you break these capsules with pinball and they release Sonic SATam Freedom Fighters from the capsules, so its non-canon

[@shardsoftime0952]

Or satAM is canon too

[@girexx7979]

in sonic generations, the time eater is travelling through time AND SPACE! This means that classic sonic from generations can be the same as from mania.

[@The4thSnake]

The story is explicitly about time travel, not dimension travel.

[@harryadamson3702]

Knuckles chaotic is confirmed to not be canon as Takeshi izuka said that he rebooted the chaotic in sonic heroes.

[@Riley.mk07]

Wouldn't Sonic be 19 instead of 17? Sonic was gone for 2 years in Sonic Chronicles.

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

If i made a timeline liked this then I will include sonic dash with the crossover with angry birds then the Mario and sonic games and include his envovment in Lego dimensions

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

Alright while sonic mania led to forces we need legacy game to lead into forces and that’s where Sonics environment in LEGO dimensions takes place

[@girexx7979]

sonic is taking his classic look in dimensions, and knuckles is there, suggesting this takes place before sonic 4 and after sonic 3 and knuckles.

[@MarvinMartinez2001]

Frontiers update?

[@mika_fernandes]

honestly, at this point, a series reboot is well needed, story and continuity speaking. this shit is just messy af lol

[@oggiv]

3 things: 1. In the last video you said something about Sonic being 12 in 2, but the Manual says he's 15, so that means 4 years have passed in between CD and 2. 2. I think Colors DS is canon, since we see Sonic learn the boost, and it has the Mother Wisp, which reappears in Sonic Runners. Also, the Burst wisp is in Forces 3. Wasnt it confirmed that Mania happens after 3?

[@The4thSnake]

Sometimes, you have to disregard some details for it to make sense. Trust me, I had to do that a lot to make the Arkhamverse timeline work. Possibly. And I did set it after 3, right?

[@KKhaotic]

So in Sonic adventure Sonic and Amy were one year apart

[@reubenlyimo]

why do you suspect big the cat has been killed you might as well say cream and vanilla have been killed as well otherwise though very good theory i think sega should make you their official canon timeline keeper over the sonic franchise

[@The4thSnake]

Because I hate Big and imagining him being dead makes me happy. Thank you.

[@henryhendrix6793]

xD

[@Axxidous]

Mean Bean Machine cameo doesn't make Mean Bean Machine canon... Super Emeralds cameo does not name Hyper Sonic canon, and Crisis City cameo does NOT make the same 06 canon. CD is confirmed to be at least prior to Sonic 2, just like 06 is confirmed to not be canon. Bean is not a duck, though. He's a woodpecker. He's a referenc to another game like Honey is.

[@The4thSnake]

Where was 06 confirmed canon? Lots of people say ti is but have never provided any evidence to back that up, so unless you can one up them by providing such, I'll just have to go on believing that 06 is still canonical. And Bean's mother could easily be a woodpecker. No reason to assume, in this magical land of anthropomorphic sound-barrier-breaking hedgehogs, that a duck and a woodpecker can't reproduce together.

[@Axxidous]

It wasn't confirmed canon. It was confirmed NOT canon. Multiple times. It was common knowledge for quite some time. EXACTLY where, I don't know. I don't keep track of specific things like that for how many years has it been? 12? lol But it was officially stated and a lot of people knew of this. That's probably why lots of people say it. It's like I know Iizuka once said that SA3 could happen someday if fans really showed they wanted it, and I know they also revealed that Shadow was never PLANNED to just be killed off, but the ending to SA2 was meant to give the option to leave him gone or bring him back depending on how fans reacted to him, and also that from the get go they hoped to give Shadow his own game, and that shooting was a fan request for the Sonic series leading to Gamma and the mechs as they felt guns were unfitting to Sonic games but gave them to Shadow under the excuse that it's technically not a "Sonic" game so it was plausible, and that recently they stated that Sonic Team was not interested in making SA3 cuz they wanted to "move forward" and not backwards just cuz fans really wanted it. But I can't recall ANY of the specific sources for any of those. XD I just remember the info. So yeah... honestly I guess that means that, currently, I cannot personally convince you of the truth, so you continuing to believe what you do on that basis is fair enough I guess. It's not accurate, but from your point of view it's a reasonable approach. As for Bean, I wasn't talking about his mother. I was talking about HIM. Wasn't it stated that he was actually a woodpecker contrary to popular belief, and that Nack the Weasel was actually a Rat and not a Weasel but simply called a Weasel in the U.S. because it was associated with thieves in the U.S. more than a rat? That's what that's from.