Don't Contribute to Open Source

[@t3dotgg]

@christitustech made the perfect follow up video to this. If you want to do open source RIGHT, I think this is a must watch. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gHebd2qrlqyZjJo

[@georgehelyar]

This is how you contribute to open source: Use open source, notice a bug, investigate the bug, write a bug report and offer to fix it

[@askholia]

BUT HOW WILL I GET A T-SHIRT TO SLEEP IN AT NIGHT?!?!?!

[@Minepuffik]

​@@askholia Anyway, you won't be getting it from this year onwards 🤣

[@Agent_Six_]

Use open source, use it wrong, create an issue instead of reading the documentation.

[@Cromzinc]

@@askholia Do everything he said, but wait until Oct. to write bug report and offer the fix of course 😆

[@leisiyox]

What I like to do is to write a documentation page or part of it (for example, for a CSS framework) for a whole component or a not explained enough prop or flag Easy and doesn't damage the source code

[@andybrice2711]

I'm going to invoke Goodhart's Law here: _“When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric.”_

[@askholia]

Beautiful!

[@joe-skeen]

So true... I feel the same way about code coverage

[@developersteve1658]

A similar concept comes from game theory. It states, "The rewards of the system incentivise the behavior of the players." If a game (or anything really) rewards people for doing X, then guess what? They're gonna do X.

[@adiaphoros6842]

@@developersteve1658 Sometimes the rewards incentivizes the wrong behavior, case in point the viper bounty.

[@developersteve1658]

@adiaphoros6842 Exactly. In the case of the video topic, the problematic behavior is just trying to get 4 PR's merged. Hacktoberfest and other such systems don't have quality metrics (which, let's be honest, is impossible to do well), so people will do the minimum amount of work to get the reward.

[@gro967]

The most important message is: “If you don’t know where to contribute, you shouldn’t”. If you are not solving or improving a product you are using (even docs are fine), don’t contribute.

[@matheusjahnke8643]

My first contribution was... fixing a python example in the docs. I proposed two changes... one of them was accepted[it made the code not depend on the console wrapping the lines]... the other was rejected due to making it more readable(it was a deliberately obfuscated one liner).

[@gro967]

@@matheusjahnke8643 that's a great example for a helpful contribution. I think docs contributions are great to get started with the project. But the same thing applies to them as mentioned initially: Don't go through docs for open source projects just to find mistakes, fix the ones you stumbled upon when using it.

[@clumsyroad4026]

When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric. Having open source contributions is one metric that looks good on a resume to recruiters and improves your chances of getting a job even outside of open source programs like GSoc. Even if you're not seeking to improve your skills, it may end up being the differentiator that gets you the job. Sure, it comes at the cost of wasting a few minutes of someone else's time or polluting a repository with another dummy commit, but it's way too competitive out there. Putting yourself first is ok.

[@CyrilCommando]

That's the wrong advice because it doesn't teach anybody anything. "Don't talk about fight club", does, conincidentally, mean that no one will learn about fight club. Is that how this is supposed to be?

[@Wahaller]

​​@@CyrilCommando That's not what's being said though? Contribute to open source software *that you use and have at least some knowledge of*. That's the argument. Like if you use, say, the Gamecube emulator Dolphin regularly, and you notice something in there that's a bug, or even a fuckup in the documentation, and you think you can fix it, that's where you make your contribution. Don't just find some arbitrary open source project for the sake of it, you need to have some kind of interest in the project that you're contributing to, is my takeaway from the comment.

[@thedoctor5478]

contributing to opens-source is hard for both maintainers and contributors. It's in no way an activity for noobs.

[@SunOfTheia]

How do you not be a noob without being a noob in the beginning?

[@w01dnick]

​@@SunOfTheialearn first, don't confuse learning with contributing.

[@aomori_joe7220]

​@@SunOfTheia 'I need to be a noob in the beginning so I should try contributing to open-source.' Yeah, I don't think so. Theo mentioned building stuff and I agree. Just do loads of personal projects - thats how you be a noob and learn your way out of being one.

[@SunOfTheia]

​@@aomori_joe7220absolutely not what I was saying. I meant that even somebody who is confident in their skills and knowledge will need to be a noob for the first contribution because building personal projects doesn't translate to being able to read somebody else's code, being able to spot a problem and then for the first time figuring out how to contribute

[@kreuner11]

I've done it many times is that bad

[@ScottMaday]

I also believe many new developers are putting a language or framework before the project. They want to “learn typescript” but don’t even know what to build with it. Imagine saying “I want to learn how to use a drill” and having nothing to drill into. Pick your project first, then pick your technology. I also feel that you’re far more likely to be engaged if it’s a project you picked on your own and truly have a passion to complete it

[@homyakMilashka]

If you have a hammer everything is nails =)

[@Zichqec]

That drill analogy is a good one, I'll remember that. I have a thing to drill into, but sadly I'm swamped in too many projects in the languages I already know to have time for drilling 😔 hopefully one day

[@loganmedia1142]

A drill is not really a good analogy to a programming language. Even more so if the person is considering one of the many that can do pretty much anything you want.

[@lovekesh88]

Yes. Engineering is about making stuff, not a process to learn new skill just for sake of finding a job.

[@randomcontrol]

Yes, and that’s how people end up programming backends in JavaScript 😜🙈

[@AadilValconi]

maybe title your video "Don't Contribute to Open Source if you're a beginner" but I guess that won't be a click-bait enough title for KZbin. But yeah I completely agree with your point in the video. Also I've never once thought about contributing to open-source projects just for the sake of contributing. Like if I don't even understand the project, it won't be a meaningful contribution. But I guess it does happen. Thanks for bringing light to this.

[@blessedpigeon6304]

ngl i had this mindset earlier in my career that i NEED to do open source to better myself but i just couldn't do it, i was just aimlessly wandering around github looking for some work to do in my spare time. at some point later when i matured as a dev i found myself contributing to open source not because i wanted to better myself, but because i wanted to better the project i was contributing to and that was the game changer. my advice to beginners would be if you don't know where to contribute to some vague idea of Open Source - start a pet project, direct your energy into learning

[@viliml2763]

How did you manage to mature as a dev?

[@blessedpigeon6304]

​@@viliml2763just working at my company and dedicating some of my free time to writing on pet projects/learning. nothing complicated no tricks or secrets

[@dhkatz_]

@@viliml2763 Literally just writing more code. If you work on projects for a job or in your own time you will almost inevitably run into a bug with some open source piece of software. Do not go looking for bugs to fix, they will come to you by just writing code.

[@manonamission99]

by growing mustache@@viliml2763

[@clumsyroad4026]

When a metric becomes a target, it ceases to be a good metric. Open source contributions are one metric look good on a resume to recruiters and improves your chances of getting a job even outside of open source programs like GSoc. Even if you're not seeking to improve your skills, it may end up being the differentiator that gets you the job. Sure, it comes at the cost of wasting a few minutes of someone else's time or polluting a repository with another dummy commit, but it's way too competitive out there. Putting yourself first is ok.

[@annieperdue6140]

just like noone needs to get married: "All my friends are married so I'll propose to the first person I find"

[@t3dotgg]

Wait I love this analogy

[@InconspicuousChap]

There is no such hype about marriages as there is about programming. There are too much people who are just incapable of programming but trying to get 6-figure jobs.

[@bigneiltoo]

Opensource finds 80% of code ugly and only 4.5% attractive.

[@kulled]

@@bigneiltoo and the other 15.5%?

[@bigneiltoo]

@@kulled The rest is called "mid".

[@nicolasguillenc]

The problem is that the "how to get a tech job on 2023-2024" videos on KZbin recommend contributing to open source. And yes a lot of beginners haven't been around long enough to like a project and contribute to it. It's like the egg or the chicken dilemma, you need to start somewhere but every decision is the wrong decision. I think it comes down to your values more than your level of seniority. Every contribution you make should benefit the project, even if it's a small one but make it good.

[@mikeha]

problem is, even seasoned developers who've been around a long time aren't qualified to contribute to open source. it takes a special breed. normal developers probably don't need to be trying to contribute to these projects

[@arch391]

The industry demands you to be ​professional, so even before they get job they will do anthing to prove they are not noob. But that thing done for false data is the worse. It's just a superficial thing that no one needs to follow but they still do it. And noobs will never understand all of this in pressure. I guess it time for these companies, seniors and trainers to don't give noobs false hope@@mikeha

[@sunbleachedangel]

What newcomers need to udnerstand is - there is no easy way out, no life hack, nothing that will make learning coding easy and simple, you just have to read a lot, learn a lot, practice a lot, etc

[@Akshatgiri]

Good take. I couldn't have contributed to open source project in the early stages of my carreer ( didn't have the skills to do so ), and nor did I want to. Now a decade later and with a deeper understanding of "code", I find myself going through the source code of libraries and frameworks, usually to solve bugs and add features as I need them and give back to the community as well.

[@tobiasjennerjahn8659]

I remember the first time I contributed to open source. It wasn't a huge project, but I used it a lot and I encountered a bug that noone else seemed to have encountered yet. So I went ahead and fixed it. Submitting that pull request almost gave me a heart attack because I was so nervous I missed some guideline, or that my code wouldn't be up to snuff, or even worse that I'd introduce a new bug with my code. So I went over my small 5 line fix probably a dozen times, and eventually submitted it. I was in absolute imposter-syndrome induced agony for what felt like ages. But eventually one of the devs responded, merged my stuff and thanked me for helping out. I was riding the dopamine rush I got out of that for days. That's when I fell in love with open source. There's just something so pure and wholesome about the idea of just helping someone out because you have the resources to do it. The reality of course not such a fairy tale (like it's clearly demonstrated in this video), but this interaction will forever be what I think Open Source *is*.

[@ibrahimalharbi3358]

Thank you for helping the world to be better place for all As a Muslim, I love anyone who helps others by anything

[@ledues3336]

@@ibrahimalharbi3358 We don't want to hear advertising for your cult, thanks

[@ibrahimalharbi3358]

@@ledues3336 Sorry! Could you please talk about yourself not about other people

[@akuoko_konadu]

Goals come from things you understand, not things you don't 💯 Nice advice Theo

[@therealpeter2267]

Well I don't think that'd be a correct phrasing of it, researchers explore the unknown and that's their goal

[@loololollool]

​@@therealpeter2267 Researchers almost always start with something they know first before going to the unknown. It's always an ongoing question of "Does X + Y = Z?" where X and Y are known, but Z is not. Even post-grad studies and research start out with Master's Thesis, where they have to prove their knowledge/mastery over a specific domain. PhDs are then where they use that knowledge and mastery to carve out a new, unknown space. That new space becomes then known, allowing for further advancements.

[@akuoko_konadu]

@@therealpeter2267 at least these researchers know what they are researching, and if possible they try to follow some best practices to do their research. But the thing here is, this is not a research project that people have to find things from scratch, but there are documentations there that they can follow and see best practices on contributing to OSS, but these guys don't do that, hell they don't even use a project and see if it have a pain point they can fix, they are just pulling for pull request sake

[@tedroscourt1205]

@@therealpeter2267To be a researcher you still have to understand what the problems are of a given field so you can maximize your research.

[@forresthopkinsa]

"Goals come from things you understand" - someone who doesn't remember what it's like to not know what you don't know. If rookies limit themselves to the things they understand then they will never, ever grow into good developers.

[@neutron417]

Best definition - *“OPEN SOURCE IS AN ECOSYSTEM OF TALENTED PEOPLE WORKING HARD TO KEEP THE WEB AND ALL OF SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT ALIVE.”*

[@RyanYeske]

influencers telling you what to do and not do, the wheel keeps turning

[@grmpf]

"This isn't a clickbait video." Yes, it is. The title is extremely attention-grabbing, obviously controversial, and the actual message of the video is not what the title says.

[@JamesRouzier]

Originally, most of my open-source contributions were to solve my work problems. I did not do it out of the goodness of my heart. I did it because I needed a bug or a feature I wanted fixed. And since I did not want to maintain my fix or bug, so I contributed.

[@maran2301]

Which is still nice AND pretty sure you helped other people somewhere out there which did not report that bug or just used a workaround. Or they never found that particular bug because you fixed it.

[@noelalfaro]

As a new grad developer trying to find a job, I completely agree with this as I see more and more of my peers just trying to checkbox that they contribute to oss. Sure it may be tempting but ultimately it's more valuable to actually be a part of a community first, using the project and actually contributing. Instead of just putting your two cents of a pr

[@askholia]

The first OSS I ever did I did out of being told I need to check that box off. I was implored that it was absolutely necessary. So off I went, and I completely screwed it up. I was even assigned a issue by the maintainers of the repository, which I feel bad about cause I had no business trying it. After that failure I was humbled and knew I had made a mistake, one I wouldn't make again. Respect the code first.

[@TomNook.]

Who told you all to do OSS though?

[@KZeni]

While the title of this video is a bit of a head turning oversimplification, the aspects the video goes on to cover are definitely on point. “Cart before the horse” took the words out of my mouth as I was watching.

[@t3dotgg]

"Head turning" is the goal. I think it will get the right people to pay attention :)

[@KZeni]

@@t3dotgg totally agree 👍

[@CatMeowMeow]

​@@t3dotggwhy not make the title "the problem with pursuing open source" or something else that's much more accurate to the content of the video but still head turning?

[@t3dotgg]

@CatMeowMeow because my current title is better

[@aldyreal]

Fun Fact: if you used DeArrow, the title was already changed to "Don't Contribute to Open Source as a Novice Programmer" which actually pretty accurate and not too clickbaity

[@Its.all.goodman]

This video is actually so good. Im not an experienced dev and I genuinely thought that its all about adding pull requests and getting more exposure. Thank you so much for making this video. And the "identifying the problem in the application we work" is on spot.

[@forresthopkinsa]

"This isn't a clickbait video!" - video with the most clickbaity thumbnail and title I've seen in weeks

[@arcanernz]

It's actually a long involved process to contribute to open source like seeing if the issue has been created already, seeing if your solution aligns with the style and rules of the codebase, seeing if unit tests or other documentation is needed, writing descriptive PRs with repo steps and clear instructions, etc.; plus going back and forth with the maintainers to fix anything missing or needing adjustments. It's like another job really, many times I just say fork it and update it on my own branch in hopes of one day creating a pull request when I get around to it.

[@thekwoka4707]

I think that's why it's GOOD to contribute, especially when learning.

[@askholia]

Well, in that case you won't mind this med student doing your next surgery. I mean, it is good they are contributing when learning. We have to stop cutting corners and blaming it on 'learning'@@thekwoka4707

[@CapeSkill]

@@thekwoka4707 no, just build stuff, solve problems, use the tools, once you understand the pain points of the oss tools you're using, then it is good to contribute, create your first issues, familiarize yourself with the tool's community first.

[@TheSublimeIbanez]

I don't think you can blame the person in this instance as the real issue comes from the companies themselves. You said it yourself, having open source contributions makes a huge impact - to the point that a lot of companies *require* it as a minimum. Remove that hurdle and the desire for contribution and then open source remains as what you want it to remain as. Leave that hurdle in place and open source will be viewed more and more as how that person views it.

[@MarcosAlexandre-no3qx]

yeah, people that are entering in the area are being forced to do some open source project to get a job. Most of thoses guys are new and shouldn't have to do a project to begin. They should do the project open source after having some experience where they would know where they could contribute. Modern day jobs are hostile to new timers.

[@54114142]

I do open source whenever a tool or library I use misses a feature I want to use or has a bug that annoys me too much. Best part so far was during an interview when I was asked if by any chance I'm familiar with a library and I could honestly say that I've even actively implemented a new feature there. Biggest "contribution" - even though it was not code bust just reporting a nasty hidden bug with repo steps - was in GIT itself. Very proud. 😄

[@lukeothedukeo]

I'm not even really a coder but "goals come from things you understand" is such a universally applicable adage that I never properly considered.

[@arjayUU]

Seing the caption I assumed this was a rant about big tech buying community projects such as redhat etc. Bjt it turned out actually being informative and insightful.

[@imarya7329]

My friend was saying all this open source is good i should do it, but now i aint going to any open source until I actually find a bug and have been using it, not destroying the true spirit of open source.

[@CaioCromos]

ive used to have that "i HAVE to contribute to open source" mentality, idk why. i contributed to one of those "first pull request for beginners" repos, but thats it, i didnt went much further because of my lack of knowledge for bigger projects. after a while i started to realize how many open source tools i used had simple problems that i could easily solve. i opened my first actual issue, made my first actual PR and it got accepted! i was really happy

[@Kay8B]

My first time contributing to open source was when I wanted a feature added in a library, opened a request/issue for it, the maintainer suggested I make a PR for it. So I did and that's that, I contribute where ever I run into issues with libraries and feel like I can fix them (when asked to). This felt extremely natural and seems to be way most people contribute.

[@ibrahimalharbi3358]

Thank you for helping the world to be better place for all As a Muslim, I love anyone who helps others by anything

[@whetfaartz6685]

This is a great way to put it! especially since you feel interested in contributing rather than doing it just as a chore to get by.

[@boam2943]

Good points. Also, this is probably why some repositories look so impenetrable to new developers on that repository. They get spammed so much that, when a legitimate developer tries to submit a solution for the first time, it gets denied. And I am not talking just about new programmers that still might not have the skills. I am talking people like me, who has been developing for decades, but gets denied because I do not have many contributions to open source other than my own (very small practically invisible) projects.

[@emerson-sheaapril8555]

I think this illustrates a massive problem, in that most people that I meet don't really like programming, they have no ideas, no project they want to make...they view it as an ordered list, to follow to be successful.

[@askholia]

These are vastly incurious people. They want a list to follow that equals money at the end. They don't understand the intricacies of it. This is a hot take but if you have only used VS Code to code/develop you still have training wheels on. I got into Neovim (and Emacs) because I wanted to understand exactly where my files went, how the memory was being used, and more speed. I learned BASH scripting because I thought it looked neat and I wanted to know more about it. I don't know, I guess all these get rich quick tech videos that are out there now just make me sad. It is so boring.

[@aleaallee]

Just because I don't have any ideas about projects to make doesn't mean I don't like programming. I'm a logic-oriented guy, not a creativity-oriented guy. I'm ok working for a company but I couldn't code a personal project to save my life.

[@CapeSkill]

@@askholia why did you have to ruin a good take with the vim/vscode vomit, which made the take an absurdly awful one.

[@Dave01Rhodes]

@@askholiathat’s cool and all but real programmers don’t use neovim/emacs. Real programmers write their own text editor in ed on a file system they wrote themselves so they know exactly where the files go and write everything in assembly so they know exactly how the memory is being used and speed such as. And don’t waste your time with bash scripting. You should learn to make small programs you can chain together in one line with pipes that do what you need. That’s the Unix way. Don’t worry I’m sure you’ll get there someday.

[@CapeSkill]

@@Dave01Rhodes If you use a macbook or a pc/laptop with windows, you're on training wheels, you have to write your own OS. They also build their own computers from scratch by gathering the required material themselves as well.

[@mohsinhijazee2008]

I am sad that this video has just one thumbs up button. The kind of abuse, deceit and gamification to get some lime light via open source contributions is an insult to the honest (curiosity or need driven) progress of open source, the biggest and most unique movement in the entire history of mankind so far and this selfish attitude needs to be surely called out.

[@GT-tj1qg]

Juniors need jobs, man. Gen Z are probably going to be more fucked over than you, so have pity on them.

[@dunnydunn500]

This was a great video, straight to the point, and very helpful to a beginner like me. And you were right in the intro, I was think to myself "Why not? Open source seems rather helpful." Then I watched the video and realized that you weren't actually discouraging open source contributions entirely, you were just discouraging the belief that it is 100% necessary to get a job and to improve as a programmer.

[@schmoris]

Maybe one could also start by contributing documentation, which not only helps everybody but also leads to a better understanding of the project. What do you guys think?

[@markeggers8356]

That or answering questions on the users' mailing list (of course, after using and gaining some proficiency with the OS project).

[@silotx]

You can start by scrubbing the toilets of the main contributors. Maybe you will learn something from the patterns of their turds. Joining a small even awful company at first is better than seeking oss contributions or creating useless projects so that you can join an elite company from the get go.

[@gabtrzimajewski]

it's a good first contribution place, even better for English and another language speakers for doing translations

[@viliml2763]

But I don't know how to write good documentation. I know how to write good code.

[@markeggers8356]

Learn. Nothing is more valuable than having good documentation for a tool that you come back to after a year. It also means that you get to take vacations. It also means that you can move on to new stuff. Learn.

[@suchithsridhar]

I'm surprised with the twist this video took! I completely agree, but I think there's two other reason you should consider contributing to open source: - you like a project a lot and you want to help it get better. - you love the concept of open source and you want to help this cause.

[@adnanbayadwala8670]

This was an amazing video. I really learned something and I think this video opened my mind to the right way of learning to code and going forward. Thanks

[@zeocamo]

if no one do open source then open source dies, it should be a goal for anyone to be welcome to help out and join the world of people that is doing the right thing.

[@vyrsh0]

In india if we want to get into google summer of code, google provides a list of projects like plasma where you have to have a contribution so you can get into the competition.

[@vyrsh0]

​@saewha the problem is mediocrity. most of these people are not interested in computer science or even science and just take the field because their family tells them too. its like if a art student started attending CS classes they would be completely clueless whats going on. this is what is happening enmasse here. 90% of these people expect that because they have got the degree they will be earn a lot of money, which is what they are solely interested in. this is happening in the west too, where you see people from other fields get into tech by taking a web dev bootcamp thinking they are now a software engineer. but its not as much as here because most people there will by happy driving a taxi and here in india you dont earn anything driving a taxi/ doing labour.

[@SyncMain]

Nice video, and I like the advice at the end. I've worked mostly with closed-source APIs & engines in my career, and never had it so clearly laid out why I have never felt the need/desire to contribute to an open-source project (even though it's advice I was given at the beginning of my career, without this context.) I've definitely wished I could submit fixes for the closed-source stuff I use, instead of submitting issues/tickets and wishing them happy birthday every year that they remain open.

[@mikeha]

yes, I work with Oracle software, and it's closed source. and there have been many times where it would be nice to have access to their source code to troubleshoot some bug. but they don't let you do it.

[@privatehuff]

People are desperate for jobs/ a future and will grasp for anything that they think can improve their chances in their careers. As long as people see OSS as desirable while hiring, it will always attract people looking to use it as a means to an end.

[@lukeinderwick5951]

I just had to use this video as a reference to explain why I wouldn't approve a PR from job a applicant. As soon as I explained, they immediately wanted to close the PR, completely proving your point.

[@ElMuelio]

Totally agree with this, I've seen many projects die because the developer got sick of being inundated with badly thought out pull requests and badly written issues (which are often feature requests that many users don't want anyway).

[@jorderon]

Some companies require open source contributions to be considered. I had applied to Automattic some years ago and was rejected because I hadn’t contributed to open source. So yes, it shouldn’t be a box to check for a job, but enough companies abuse it that way so it has become that.

[@afivey]

8:40 this point about how inexperienced programmers don't understand the difference between a bad goal and a good goal is excellent and IMO worthy of its own video. A lot of introverts without friends who program will be trying to learn programming without any goal better than "I should learn Python" will sabotage themselves over completing something like a Udemy course or introductory book and then losing motivation. It's a strange thing to feel a failure when you've accomplished something and should feel success and it's not something anyone who has experienced it is eager to ever discuss. This was really helpful, thanks for making this video. Best wishes.

[@rand0mtv660]

If you would like to contribute to a project, learn how it works and then go into issues/discussions and help others use that tool and resolve issues they have. OSS is not just about writing code. Most people will most likely abandon the idea of open source contributing right there because they will realize open source isn't as glamorous as some people might want you to think.

[@RuiFungYip]

Ngl. This is exactly how I got started in open source. (And is still my primary motivator for contributions.) - Used something. - Found bug. - Got annoyed at bug not being fixed yet. - Decided to pull a Thanos: "If you want something done right, do it yourself" - Spend hours digging into and researching relevant parts of code. - Fix code. - Am happy. - Start (potentially) tedious process to clean it up and contribute it upstream so I don't have to patch every single update until it's fixed. And yes, you should very much be starting with learning how to write *good* issue reports instead of PRs. Being able to properly convey what's a problem, and how it's a problem, and how to reproduce that problem, is literally the 1st step to trying to fix a problem. If you can't narrow down what's a problem, there's nothing to fix. If you can't explain how it's a problem, you're not likely to convince anyone. If you can't reproduce the problem reliably, it'll be hell for anyone to fix it. (most of the time.)

[@Avocado.777]

With this single video, you have just improved open source by enlightening me and thousands of other people about what open source contributions really are.

[@ConnerArdman]

Love this take👌I usually give the same advice on open source as I do on programming languages-it's not Pokemon, no need to catch 'em all. We should be learning new programming languages when we need them to solve problems and build cool stuff, not to tick boxes on resumes. The same is true with open source contributions. They should be the result of working towards other goals, not goals themselves.

[@TomNook.]

Best video in a while, 100% agree. Although I would argue that the OP wanting to contribute to open source must have been influenced by some people posting that advice in the first place.

[@FoxSlyme]

Just contributed to open source recently, clicked on this video to find out why I shouldn't've (according to the video title), but turns out I checked every box at 3:28 (I used that project, I had a problem with it, I determined it's a bug in the project code I can solve, I put a code analysis in the issue, and only then made a pull request) which means my decision to contribute was right which contradicts the video title. I would name it "Why You Shouldn't Contribute to Open Source" instead to not make it sound like every open source contribution is bad

[@vpr17]

There was an awareness session on Open source and Hacktoberfest in my college. The speaker, who was a former google employee, specifically mentioned, 'if you're not able to make any contributions in the coming month or two, forget about getting a good job'.

[@TheDingsBoms]

“The cart is being put before the horse here” good one, agree!

[@shikamaru676]

I think there is an exception to the "don't contribute if you don't use the project and don't know how", if you want to give back to the same developers on a different project. I, for example don't have the skillset to contribute to moby (docker upstream), but I can help with docker compose because it's a high level cli that I understand. Do I use docker compose? No, not really, but if I can help Docker (the company) to focus on project moby, by solving some issues in compose I'm happy to do that and the end result is almost the same, I gave back to the same community and core developers have time to focus on the main product.

[@erics2133]

As much as I want to help out, I've avoided getting wrapped up in Hacktoberfest precisely because I don't want to add to the chaos.

[@mikail_dev]

I just finished the basics of the MERN stack, and I was going to contribute to the "so-called" open source you talked about. But you've opened my eyes, and now I think I have to learn more before starting to contribute to the real thing.

[@Sk8nRock]

This is really sad. I have also seen a lot of junior developers resort to writing low effort blog articles about trivial tech topics (often just copy pasting the official docs) just to boost their chances of landing a job. But after all I guess recruiters value this kind of crap.

[@zackyezek3760]

As a rule, I only try to submit PRs to open source projects if I’m using them AND had to fix a bug or add functionality. Beyond that, it only makes sense to attempt a PR if the set of new & fixed code is clean and generic. Basically, stuff that isn’t a hack specific to what I needed or my environment. For example, adding support to build it with the latest Visual Studio or c++ versions.

[@blazernitrox6329]

As you said, the important thing about open source for people looking to get into the industry _isn't_ that you contributed to some big project, it's that your contribution is out there where people can see it. Sure, there's a certain amount of prestige associated with submitting a contribution to something like the Linux kernel, but at the end of the day the better option (and the one I'm pursuing) is to just work on a project that _you need_, and then share the source for that at an appropriate time. Again, what matters isn't that you contributed code to a project, what matters is that your code is out there where it can be seen.

[@l3thaln3ss]

Hey theo, I don't disagree with a lot of the points you say, and there are probably some extremes (like you showed in your video). But I do think that there is a bit of an issue that is underlying this: the onboarding for devs to an open source project can be a bit of an issue and in some projects is completely overlooked. It becomes even more apparent when you find a more structured project with proper docs, tooling and onboarding. On the project I help maintain, we always get bug reports or enhancement requests submitted but rarely ever do we have someone come in with an issue and offer to address it, and I can only think it's an onboarding issue. I remember how daunting the codebase was when I first found it and wanted to work on something. It's been one of the things, I've been trying to slowly address (and could probably do more). And if your project isn't meant for new devs, then it should probably say so really early on in your contributor docs.

[@Wierdcrap]

Glad I watched it through. I understand you. People want to take a shortcut instead of learning every little thing. It’s something I had to learn when becoming a tech. Start at the bottom and learn the trade

[@JamesMCrutchley]

I am a new developer. I started writing a program for my own use. About 6 months into development I started realizing some of the packages I imported has bugs that everyone wanted fixed but no one was fixing. 3 months later I had 6 PRs under my belt. They were actual fixes for real issues. Two of them were I would consider especially dumb but actually required fixes. Both were one liners that fixed CTD in any app that called it. They work now and they were not obvious. unfixed for months. Then I started work on a feature that much requested that I am still working on. No one else has made a single attempt at it in the repo. It was listed as too hard to do. Idk I will just keep at it. I have no interest in a job doing software dev. I did not honestly have any idea about this until Ihad ppl contacting me asking me if I could look at an issue and maybe fix it. I'm pretty crappy at the proper wording of a PR. But the repose I have contributed are happy to rewrite simple English if they find a fix that is simple and easy to understand and just works.

[@UrbanFury12]

My first SD job, I was asked in the interview about why I didn't contribute to open source tools I was using in my project. Employers are asking for these kinds of things.

[@milanml722]

I am an newbie dev with a few years of experience in the industry. My main issue with personal projects is that they don't have meaning. I wrote a web application that no one is going to use. I wrote a file system from scratch that I eventually just discarded. This aggravated when I joined my first job. Now whenever I think of a new project I just go "Uggh what's the point, no one is going to use it anyway" Opensource however are projects that are actually being used by real people. There's a sense of satisfaction in knowing that my code is live and being used while also giving me a chance to learn new things.

[@heretichazel]

As someone without much coding expertise who's done a few contributions, it never even crossed my mind to look for a project to contribute to instead of just contributing to something I already use for the sake of making it better

[@dfs-comedy]

I was a software developer for 33 years (recently retired from the tech industry) and my first OSS contributions were projects that I wrote because they scratched an itch. Even though I retired, I still maintain them. It was probably a decade or more before I contributed to an OSS project run by others. So if you want to contribute to OSS, find something you need that's not already available, or at least not in a form you want, and write it. If it's good, people will use it. If it's crap, well... that tells you you're not ready to contribute code to existing OSS projects.

[@jaimesoad]

Contributing to Open Source is not only limited to code, if your happen to speak other language than English and know a specific project whose documentation needs translation into the language you know, you totally can contribute in a very meaningfull way.

[@d3stinYwOw]

I totally agree with you - I'd first focus in 'how to start with OSS' A LOT on 'how to make good issues for project you like' instead of 'how to code'.

[@Ksahdia]

Thank you for sharing. I was also told that open source would help me to gain experience and help to find my first tech job. But when I looked around, I was hesitating too and decided to just make my own projects for now and work on my weaker spots with those. After all, when I try something new I run into problems as well and have to learn to find the bugs and fix them. I was doubting my decision though, wondering if I was overreacting. But seeing this video I now know I wasn't overreacting. (It has only been a few months since I finished a front end development course, so greener than a junior developer.)

[@comedyclub333]

It actually took me ~5 years for my first pull request on an open source project. It wasn't huge, it wasn't complicated, but it was something that actually annoyed me. It's not that I never wanted to contribute before (I always read issues in case I find something I can dive into), it was just feeling pointless contributing for the sake of it.

[@data_pod]

Harkirat Singh is a gem. I am not even a developer. I am Transitioning to data analytics and data science and still follow him for the correct guidance he gives towards how one should go about being the best in their domain.

[@franck8731]

Imo, for a beginner, the only contribution to open source you can do you is fully read the documentation and make a pull request if you saw any typo, broken link, or whatever. At least it will show that you actually read documentation (which I feel like a lot of people don't)

[@lifewater]

As someone who is not a programmer, and likes to watch people like you, prime and other people in the coding space, I can say the idea of contributing to open source comes from youtube, and its been mentioned enough times for me to remember that working on open source projects look good on your resume. Maybe I was half-ass listening and I have this twisted, but this is definitely something thats in my head, and it 100% came from youtubers, and if a new programmer asked me how to get started, that would be something in my head.

[@GT-tj1qg]

Bear in mind that KZbin is a hotbed for interview advice grifters. Most of these guys got into Google because of timing and luck and got pushed out because of underperformance. They are in no place to school us all

[@lifewater]

@@GT-tj1qgI think you’re right about that. As for open source contributions unfortunately this is probably one of those things that can’t be put back in the bottle. Until open source contributions are universally ignored, this problem will always exist. And this will likely never happen because in reality good open source contributions will always be looked at as a plus

[@mikeha]

it sounds like good advice but it's really not. most open source projects are so complex that the average developer does not have a chance in hades of contributing anything useful to these unless they are intimately familiar with the source code

[@arthank1263]

I mean, the title was a bit click-baity I know contributions look good on a CV, but it never crossed my mind to try and contribute on a project I don't personally use, because... I can't find the motivation to work on something I don't give an F about. What you just said made me sad, but it also explains a few things...

[@PoutineItalienne]

I have worked for 15 years in large corporations always valued in billions as a software developer. Not once did a recruiter ask me if I contributed to an open source project or cared about it.

[@Rust_Rust_Rust]

But did you contribute to an open source project?

[@PoutineItalienne]

No. I use open source extensively but never felt the need to be a contributor. Most of my colleagues rarely if ever contribute to open source either. I did rise bug issues if you count that...@@Rust_Rust_Rust

[@_trepz]

Very good points, saving this to send to people in future. I unleashed a much less coherent version on this argument on a tech recruiter about 5 years ago after he made some mind-bending comment along the lines of "a senior dev should be contributing to open source every day" bro what.

[@abc1987625]

It can be useful to submit reports too. An issue with nVidia CUDA drivers and flatpaks got fixed the other day partly because I raised the issue, not because I knew how to fix it. I have no intention of learning to bundle drivers as flatpaks any time soon either because it's not my area. But if I started making pull requests based on my guesses about the problem, it would doubtless have been a pain for the developers.

[@Vintagestep]

It's not activity for noobs for sure, the problem is that the entry point for a junior or a trainee developer is getting higher and higher. So how can we address that? In my case I went to a vocational school for two years, I'm about to finish, one month of exams that will be quite rough but fun... in a way... And then the internship which I hope paves my way to a job. Camps that cost like 5000€ and promise that you will be a fullstack in 3 months have thrived here but it feels like they saturated the market with people that in a lot of cases doesn't seem to have what It takes to be a dev, and hirers are not taking them in anymore unless yo go to the expensive ones... I guess part of what you pay is paid to the company and then that's the money they use to pay your first salaries until they decide you're adequate or not, if not congrats, you got idk, a month or two of experience and guess what, that maybe help you land your next gig lol So yeah, it's difficult to standout if everyone is doing portfolios with the same projects, a lot of people just wanna get a better job and are putting a lot to stake for this, maybe they saved money for like 4 or 6 moths and are drilling more than 12h per day, how someone in that situation is expected to be creative and find a niche to bloom where they're trying to fool proof an entry point to a new career? This is partially my story, but it's also what happened to a lot of people I met along the way, I'm lucky I could go back to my parent's home and study in the community college and that in Europe we do have vocational training endorsing your knowledge. Otherwise I don't know what other thing I could be doing right now to leave the mediocrity of unqualified jobs. I choose this because for the past 30 years we had an enormous growth everywhere for IT companies and within the industry this seemed to be the most fitting , but man, it's hard to swallow the fact that 5 years ago with a camp of 3 months I'd be working now and now I have to do a 2 year qualification for the same thing and while it's true that in this past 2 years I learned a lot and became more proficient, I feel a lot of my time was wasted as well because I already knew half of what I had to study here... I know this feel like I went on a tangent, but understand where all this people stand and try to give them a better alternative or at least I hope more people don't deceive them to go into open source without understanding the repositories they're trying to contribute with.

[@morre6748]

I've never heard your name before somebody shared this video in my job's Slack. Watched this video, you got yourself a new subscriber. You make a great point and the production quality is great. Thanks for sharing, looking forward to hear more of your opinions.

[@jingping5948]

I'm in my first year of CS and my class has been given the advice of doing open source numerous times, alongside other hints pushing us towards it like "I've never had a employer who didn't want my GitHub." It kinda sucks as someone who isn't skilled enough at coding to really contribute to keep getting advice I can't use. For reference I'm in my 2nd java programming class, I'm also in the upper echelon of my class, and I feel woefully under prepared to engage in any established code base.

[@argylleagen]

As a recent grad student I see this almost everywhere in my "bubble" of peers and colleagues. In fact i would be lying if i said i wasn't looking to contribute to a few OSS projects myself but I never understood anything! Now it all makes sense, i just need to take it all in and learn some more. Thanks Theo.

[@forresthopkinsa]

Keep in mind that this opinion is not universal. There are a lot of OSS maintainers who will gladly review and criticize your PRs, even often labeling certain issues as "good first issue!", because you gain constructive feedback from it and they (eventually) gain a productive regular contributor.

[@belenrb]

I've recently started using the Astro framework, and I absolutely love it. I would like to contribute, but I acknowledge that I currently lack the knowledge to do so. At the moment, I'm starting by helping with the translation of docs to Spanish. However, I don't view it as a means to secure a job; I simply want to contribute because I genuinely enjoy working with Astro.

[@test-rj2vl]

If I was Hacktoberfest organizer I would make a rule that commit has to be at least 50 lines of actual code changes in total. And that readme files and other non-code files don't matter and that non-code parts in code file such as correcting typos in strings or variable names also doesn't count. And I would keep adding new rules to make sure that commits are such that actually create value.

[@kefpull6676]

For your first contribution and pull request, you need to do it in your own repository, to learn how to articulate issues, pull requests, and the process of maintaining branches and forks.

[@armoredchimp]

I'm a noob (little over a year programming) currently trying to finish my first actual large project. I'm really glad that you said this, because I do not feel ready to contribute to any open source yet, but I have been seeing it as a recommendation all over the place. I'll give it at least another year, and I won't do it just because, only if there's a reason.

[@TheThirdWorldCitizen]

Open Source contributions come naturally once you’re interested or even passionate about a project and perhaps you already use the software.

[@MagpieMcGraw]

This is like when new game developers ask "what game should I make". If you have to ask that, you're not ready.

[@maruthikonjeti4572]

The part of thinking of not learning something is wrong not only for open source, a good programmer in any domain is someone who is open to learn

[@annaczgli2983]

One of your most insightful takes. I'm gonna be thinking about this for a loong time. Thanks for the video.

[@nootics]

As a non dev, I wondered how I could get into this stuff. I love open source and use a bunch of open source apps, but issue reporting is daunting already, the internet is a hostile place. I don't even trust myself to make good issues on a tracker, I only report stuff if there's like a discord for the project and I can just discuss the issue directly in a chat, then the supports will open the issue on the tracker themselves.

[@Neninho_]

I think it's bad that some jobs even require open source contributions, a lot of Devs will never contribute because they don't want to spend their free time coding. It's ok if someone adds it to their job application to show what they've done however it shouldn't be a measure for experience as people often aren't allowed to contribute during work and have other hobbies, even if they contribute it'll only be smaller things at a low frequency.

[@andrewodom486]

This title is clickbate. The argument for why to not contribute to open source applies to literally just beginners, who also are only doing it for adding it to their resume and are incapable of writing good code. Also it's still good as work to add to your resume, if you want to be a programmer you should be capable of working on these type of things and it does help with your resume it's not a bad option. There are other options, like creating your own software, internships if you can find one, but open source is also perfectly valid. The guy in the video is one bad example of someone wanting to contribute to open source, and the people leaving those comments kinda have a point, just learn typescript, refusing to learn something as a programmer is the last thing you'd want to do, and if most of the things you are looking at are in typescript just learn typescript. I'll agree if someone is just looking for random software that they don't use looking to make some change just to put on their resume and they are not writing good code, sure that's bad, but saying "Don't Contribute to Open Source" is not a valid takeaway from this.

[@Jolfgard]

8:00 And what if I see a cool project that I'm not that familiar with, but want to learn and eventually contribute? Is this then wrong? Does this make me a bad person?

[@owendavies7381]

Love your newish set and video animations

[@M4R71N_88]

So what if the guy wants to test himself? Maybe he will excel and create many great new open-source apps. This is a good example of cancel culture in action. Why tell the guy what not to do? Open source does not classify people or their motivations. You cannot dismiss someone who wants to get involved in open source. Didn't you notice that these people will improve and are a sign that the community is growing? It's like the older generation flexing at the younger ones when they join them in the factory to work. Everyone was inexperienced at some point and had to learn. We want as many people involved as possible. After completing the learning curve, everyone can contribute in the best way possible, and we will all benefit from that

[@abtar4294]

Thanks for the video. I tried to learn programming but stopped because I did not find my passion for programming but like after 1.5 year after using popular photo and video editing and 3d animating software that many youtubers suggest like Gimp,kdenlive, Blender, etc I realized that this programs have many features that I do not need. After that I started searching for simple programs for their replacement.I spent many days for finding them tried many programs and found simple photo editing software, video editing Software and 3d animation software that suits me. Then I understood that I want to make simple programs targeting general people. Now I am learning programming and I am member in forums of software that I use and love. I have not helped them by writing code but I do little bug reports , request a feature, ask help, take part in making tutorials for helping others not for having great number of views or subscribers and try to understand how these programs functions. Now also whenever I need a new software for different neccessity I search the web for a good amount of time for finding simple programs . and when I find them even if they are old software and are not developed and updated anymore I use them if they are useful.🙂

[@ShaharHarshuv]

The only time I ever contributed to another project was because I wanted something to be fixed. The only project I opened-sourced was something I initially created to myself.

[@togakangaroo]

A version of this conversation I've had a dozen times is when I point out that in order to carry any cachet, the project you contribute to has to be a significant size and notability. People then complain that they can't find any issues simple enough to work on. But that's just silly. One could always make a commitment to read through all hundreds of issues in the issue tracker. Most will not make sense, but a couple will. They could also easily offer to the maintainers, to do some cleanup and categorization as they do this. It's serious, hard work but very much doable and yet no one ever takes me up on it

[@davidgentilli7944]

I was thinking about how to get involved in open source when I found this. It's great advice, thank you.

[@CynicalOldDwarf]

Funny, I learnt to code by looking at an open source online game's code and learning how it worked, the reason I did this was because I played the game and wanted to know its secrets. Eventually I started writing contributions to it (and never once had criticism that my code was bad). But over the years I frequently found myself more and more butting heads with other developers, because I was a dev that played the game but increasingly the running joke that "developers don't play the game" was proven truer as more and more devs were simply there to write code without actually considering the impact on the playerbase; bugs which should've been picked up if the 'dev' had bothered testing for five minutes, adhoc changes getting pulled on a whim without any discussion with the playerbase (aka: the client), etc etc. Eventually I moved on when I realised that most of the developers were college kids that had no passion for the game (they didn't play) and were only there to stick the experience on their resumé.

[@chris.dillon]

Billion dollar companies should contribute to open source by hitting the donate button. But that's not how things work.