SENSIBLE DEBATE: Are The Media AFTER Arsenal? | The Cannon Podcast

[@DiffKnock]

Hey guys! Huuuuuuge feedback on this one, probably 95% disagreeing with my take, but I appreciate how it's broadly been civil and attacking on issues not on personal stuff. (Broadly. It's the internet, you can only ask for so much 😂) Ultimately, I haven't really changed my view on it that I shared in the video, though I respect Giorge's and many others in the comments hugely. 🔺 Still feel we're hyperfocusing on a few (valid) incidents to make a HUGE jump to claim a genuine media bias 🔺 I'm not as convinced as others that media narrative affects refereeing in any meaningful way - and it's hard to tell anyway 🔺 Still think this is all better explained by the idea we're in an Arsenal echo chamber and want to defend our badge - look at other Big 6 teams, exact same stuff going on 🔺 Still feel any critique at all is better explained by, not a desire to hunt Arsenal down, but a desire to exploit our engaged fanbase at a time of great success for Arsenal - which is why I say don't be victims But ultimately, a lot of this is subjective. Unless someone can do some kind of objective meta analysis of this, we all just have our hunch based on what we consume. I've learned to be suspicious of absolutes. I will always say what I think, even if it's unpopular as that's the most genuine way to operate imo. Anyway, please check out the other content we have on TCP, and I appreciate you guys engaging in the debate brilliantly. -- Alex x

[@90jimmychoo]

Media narratives absolutely inform bias in refereeing decisions. Just like in any form of life the media is the most powerful tool at shaping social perception and in some case actual outcomes. Personally, I am really concerned at the relationship the broadcasters have with PGMOL (namely Sky) I feel like they inform bias in one another and allows them to shape season defining outcomes between them both. I don't think the 'Ref watch show' with Howard Webb serves any purpose other than to legitimise/mitigate/defend the mistakes of referees. I think what George has said in this segment is a completely valid concern. Bias is not just a like or dislike of any given individual or organisation, it can incentivised or guided behaviour to act in any given way to a particular individual or group. The referees should have no direct relationship with any other part of the game to ensure minimal bias. PGMOL are and should be a separate entity within the game They are the adjudicators of game so to ensure impartiality you need to separate them from individuals or organisations that have a stake in their decision making process on the pitch.

[@RobP317]

Huge fan of your videos mate, but as a psychologist by trade, there’s a few things I wanted to share on what we in the field understand about biases. All humans have biases because we don’t have the mental capacity to process enough info at once to make quick judgments without them. Most people don’t consciously think about their biases, but they do have subconscious impacts on everyone’s decision making. We develop biases over time, mostly because our brains inherently take shortcuts, otherwise known as heuristics. The availability(i.e the ease at which a particular idea comes to mind) and representativeness (i.e categorizing entire groups of people as similar, regardless of their individual qualities) heuristics are the two I believe apply in this scenario with the referees. These two heuristics are intertwined with each other and can lead to what we refer to as confirmation bias (i.e. the tendency to search for, interpret, focus on and remember info in a way that confirms one’s preconceptions). Essentially, the more referees hear about Arsenal playing dirty, masters of the dark arts and all that, it’s a virtual guarantee that it has an impact on the preconceptions they will have about Arsenal before we even step on the pitch. Whether it’s media segments highlighting things for clicks, complaints from clubs about our behavior, etc - it all has a subconscious impact, especially when it comes to quick judgments such as the ones made by referees. The bigger the narrative against Arsenal, the bigger the confirmation bias referees will display against Arsenal. It’s science mate. Apologies for the rant, cheers if you actually read this far lol

[@joggle0]

@@DiffKnock there are some Objective errors which can be damaging to players careers. OBJECTIVELY claiming Partey injured Rodri, when it is factually incorrect, is wrong and can cause damage to Partey’s brand. There isn’t subjectivity there.

[@oluwatobilafinhan6892]

​@@RobP317 Spot on! It feels a little like Alex is trying to be completely logical and data driven in an area where there's just so much going on that can't get measured. I've read about something called the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon or frequency illusion. It occurs when something you've recently learned or become interested in starts appearing more frequently in your environment, leading you to believe that it’s happening more often than it actually is. That last part is where the issue is, Alex. If refs start to believe that Arsenal are using more "dark arts" than other teams, they'll start to see it more often in our games and when it comes to making split decisions, like deciding the give Trossard a second yellow, we'll fall on the wrong side more often than not. We don't even have to go too far, we see how refs referee home teams differently especially when the crowd starts to really get on their back - the power of the 12th man. In a game of small margins and high variance, things like this matter.

[@TonyAFC87]

Whatever our opinion is on this, i do appreciate your mentality towards ignoring the noise and the bullshit and just enjoy this phase as much as we can because it is going to be f***ing special. We dont wanna let anything spoil this when the time comes 👌🏼

[@kojoosei7850]

💯 agree with George here. If such narratives don’t affect reffing, what happened to Xhaka? Getting reds for what others would get a yellow from. Or bookings to perceived divers like Sterling or Neymar for actual fouls. The media narrative affects refs too. So when it’s wrong, we must 💯 call it out.

[@jacobs3722]

Fans doing is fine but the mainstream media doing it is dangerous

[@kojoosei7850]

@@jacobs3722exactly

[@angushulme7074]

I couldn't agree more... leniency against top clubs from refs has always been the case... as was Fergie pressure... no question Man City get the best decisions every time

[@scorpionsrock1511]

@@angushulme7074 I agree with you, but disagree with definition of “Top Clubs”… We’re top club, but find ourselves in the wrong end of decisions weekly. There are certain “Top Clubs” that are beneficial of refs decisions.

[@dre8463]

Let's take a look at Rodri for example. Let's be honest here: if Rodri had played for Arsenal this entire time, he'd have at least 5 red cards to his name by now. He gets away with A LOT of fouls during games without a card being shown, it's crazy. There's no chance he'd get away with that at Arsenal. Absolutely no chance.

[@JR01015]

*With George here. Think you’re being INCREDIBLY naive here Alex if you think the chatter around Arsenal doesn’t bleed into the way referees officiate the game.*

[@joggle0]

Alex, They LIED! Read the article. Partey DID NOT INJURE RODRI. The article lied. Because it said Partey injured Rodri. Call them out Alex!

[@jacobs3722]

He doesn't want to some ppl refuse that ppl can be biased

[@joggle0]

@@jacobs3722 it’s not even about bias. Bias implies your opinion swaying towards your preferred team. Not purely lying. - which I believe is far more DANGEROUS to the careers of our players

[@briansmith975]

It’s created commentary because we have been smart enough to perfect / systemise corners

[@Jadaoki]

Holy smokes alex was annoying in this one.. George as always on the money

[@jacobs3722]

He's doing the rivals thing when they lose brain cells when Arsenal the topic

[@malcolmpotter9528]

He’s right in my opinion on the victim mentality subject. Like why should you care about a narrative of people you don’t respect their opinion anyways?! For a long time no has respected Gary Neville’s opinion on arsenal.

[@jacobs3722]

@@malcolmpotter9528 I don't think u get the point I don't think we care what Neville and rivals etc say. But when clubs are making complaints to pgmol and the media narrative is agreeing with even tho it's lies that's where the problem is. Rival fans / clubs / mainstream media all agreeing with eachother it paints a picture in the officials head

[@lexuslust]

@@malcolmpotter9528 no one respects him, but smooth brains will regurgitate his opinions bc he has a bigger platform to do so. Have we not been paying attention to world events??? lmao

[@jayk5368]

Other way round ,lose the victim energy

[@jacobs3722]

Alex you're giving them excuses , mainstream media shouldn't show that type of bias clubs complaining about 'dark art' puts a negative subconscious implications on Arsenal by the refs and the media is allowing that narrative to carry on

[@scorpionsrock1511]

Exactly!

[@jacobs3722]

@@scorpionsrock1511 Alex is not even comprehending what George is saying. How can they be more than 100 delaying of restarts in the league this season but only 4 have been carded and 3 Arsenal players have been booked

[@Mr_Miyagi]

Gotta say, I agree with George on this one. The narratives do matter and do set a dangerous precedence. Love the pod boys, keep it up

[@Mr_Miyagi]

I think the other thing we have to think about is most fans only follow games and news about the club they support. I am a a Gooner but I only watch Arsenal podcasts. On KZbin, I only ever see recommendations for Arsenal news. So I can see both sides here but the data is showing that Arsenal are actually getting more bad calls and the pundits rarely talk about Arsenal for our strengths and instead focus on putting us down.

[@briansmith975]

@@Mr_Miyagithe degree of damage created by ref /VAar /PGMOL to any other club would likely catch our atttention if it was as outrageous as those we know have been inflicted on Arsenal

[@coachlance7076]

George is 1000% correct we saw it live time with Xhaka. The narrative around Granit changed and it changed the way refs called games against him.

[@crrainger]

That Athletic journalist absolutely deserves backlash. In any profession, you will be asked match certain basic capabilities. Him pushing narrative that is plainly false (about Partey deliberately clashing with Rodri for the injury) is either willingly ignorant or is deliberate deception. Either way, these are not standards The Athletic seemingly promote and therefore, I totally think its fair to tell him brazenly that he's either bad at his job or is wanting morally. I definitely don't care if his feelings are hurt. That is your job, this is our hobby. Treat it with contempt and you will get treated with contempt. Do a great job, earn great respect.

[@Victor-wp5jl]

Where was this articulated

[@Sui_Generis0]

Exactly. Anything is labelled abuse now. If that's what he is referring to as abuse, then it's completely ridiculous because it should be expected and ought to happen to correct standards. If he meant "abuse" by people taking things further than his work (which I never saw, but there's always a small %) then it's needless to be said, of course that shouldnt be tolerated

[@mattvarner5825]

Which writer was it?

[@meeram7447]

I have observed this with some Arsenal fans. They want to play the Devil's Advocate on behalf of their detractors and accept unfair criticism. THAT is SOFT, Alex. This narrative could get dangerous if this continues. What gets talked about a lot becomes the truth in the long run. Tribalism is of course accepted, but not unfair and unjust criticism. Alex, you are boldly claiming we do Dark Arts - please define the same. Arsenal is not doing anything other teams won't do in similar situations. That is where Arsenal fans and unbiased Pundits (at least online, coz I know mainstream is totally biased) should stand up and push back against such ludicrous takes - Overlap had the thumbnail, "are Arsenal Cheats"??? I understand they had to change the title to "Is City Guilty?" because there was a pushback. Instead of being the "good guys" accepting this ridiculous narrative of being the team that has invented dark arts, we should reject it. If this continues, Arsenal will eventually get stuck with that undeserved label of being a cheat. It could be a serious demotivator for our team and the Manager/ coaching staff, who are working their backsides on and off the pitch for success. We can resist this narrative without being derogative or disrespectful.

[@danielc196]

There are some Arsenal fans who are too young to remember what happened under Wenger. The narrative then was we were 'softies', a narrative all around the media at the time (and still lingers interestingly), this was put forward first by Ferguson because he couldn't beat us fair and square. What was the upshot of this? Referees allowed teams to kick the shit out of us leading to several broken legs until even the media realised it had gone too far and reigned it in a bit. It was too late to salvage those guy's careers though, or the trophies we probably missed out on as a result. I wonder what we'll miss out on this time? I think the PL title last season can already but into that category. There are other Arsenal fans who are old enough to remember but should know better. These are the ones who complain about 'victim mentality' and that we 'have to get on with it and stop moaning'. These fans are probably telling on themselves a bit, maybe they have a victim mentality themselves or have some kind of fear of it so don't think anyone's allowed to complain about things. Either way, they do a lot of damage too.

[@Best_game59]

Alex shut up.

[@naba2008]

totally agree with you, they seem to want to play some 'i'm so intellectual' game

[@Sui_Generis0]

George is way more convincing in this. I get that Alex's position is a bit harder to articulate because it's the null hypothesis but his rebuttals were very weak or off point. It also seems like he has complete deference to authority. Always backing journalists no matter the scenario. From bad/lazy interview questions to falsely written articles, they hold no accountability It sounds at times like Alex is debating for the sake of it. He seems to agree with the main point that's being made then disagrees with a strawman that he's made up in his head or seen on twitter that George never argued. It's ironic he mentions the influence of social media algorithms and seeing 1 voice and 100 people attacking it becuase it seems like he was captured by it and starts arguing against those points and actions rather than the nuanced points George was making. But yes, of course there will likely never be 'certainty' that these media narratives consistently feed into real decisions at the expense of Arsenal, but with the information at hand it can increase your credence towards it where it's beyond a reasonable doubt.

[@The_HOPE_that_kills]

Alex has had a clear role change this season. He has taken the role of antagonist and or thought provoker. Whilst sometimes frustrating what I do respect is for a FAN channel the cannon pod are trying to not be an echo chamber. I respect Alex for trying to be a balance content provider. Please remember that when being frustrated by some of the positions Alex takes up !

[@whatevername8551]

​@@The_HOPE_that_kills exactly right

[@meeram7447]

Alex trying too hard here to prove his point, almost going to the extent of accusing his own team of doing more dark arts than other teams🙃.. Sorry, but I am with George here. Your argument that it does not specifically apply to Arsenal is amusing. With respect to Howard Webb's statement on entertainment: No one is saying it was ONLY Arsenal that got affected. Being Arsenal fans, we care more about what happens to our team and how the logic is not consistent. By giving a second yellow card to Trossard without being subjective, the referee killed the entertainment of a potentially classic match between ManCity and Arsenal to a defensive match.

[@eugeneidubor3477]

I am sorry Alex but you are soooo off on this one, arsenal are being treated differently, and its because they dont like the mannerism of aterta

[@Victor-wp5jl]

But they laugh and joke with Arteta at Arsenal's press conferences. What mannerisms are you talking about ?

[@ObiEmereuwa]

​@Victor-wp5jl mannerism on the touch line, not staying in his technical area. Imagine if it was arteta that kicked his seat like pep did when we scored the first goal, we wouldn't hear the end of it.

[@euginechikunya8491]

If Arteta is quiet then he is described as being aloof, if he shows passion he is described as bad mannerisms. If klopp does the same then he is a darling of the media..he cant seem to do anything right in the eyes of the media so if I were him I would say screw everyone, and do what I need to do for my team succeed whether you like it or not!

[@Victor-wp5jl]

@ObiEmereuwa thanks. Glad you cleared that up 👍🏾

[@eugeneidubor3477]

@@ObiEmereuwa thank you, this is what i meant

[@michaelndiokwere9227]

What's Alex waffling about today 😂

[@fr33PS]

This is genuinely my favourite Arsenal Podcast. The dopamine hit when I see a new upload >>>>

[@TheCannonPod]

❤️❤️❤️❤️

[@Chapman1886]

Giorge schooled Alex about how to present facts to back up his claims and explained again and again, but he doesn't listen. Listen how Alex goes uhuh uhuh. He doesn't listen, he's waiting to disagree regardless of what Giorge is saying. And of course he ends with "I just don't agree" after admitting that Arsenal have been disproportionately subjected to harsh officiating, and seeing an avalanche of narratives against Arsenal after the City game, including teams complaining to PGMOL. No worries there, mate. City, again, get to frame the narrative and the pundits and Sky eat it up. What a piss poor product Sky is. It's not a professional broadcast to me, but sensationalism and putting narratives out there that affects the impressionable refs to target Arsenal. Not a good look and frustrating to listen to Alex be so unwilling to actually respond to anything Giorge is saying and going as far as calling us fans, who don't just accept these lies, as having a victim mentality. Alex had little facts to back up his claims, and didn't respond to anything Giorge said, but misunderstood or reframed everything to mean something different. He turned it into a pointless debate instead of a real discussion. Debate tactics are exhausting. Look at this clip again Alex and see if you can learn something going forward. Otherwise, I won't look forward to the next time you disagree with someone.

[@TheCannonPod]

Hey mate, completely hear if you disagree with me (as many will, I know I'm not on a popular side!), but this just is totally untrue and I have to push back. I massively respect Giorge and was listening to him very deeply, as I always do. I find it a bit insulting to suggest I'm not listening, to be honest, as that would be disrespectful to Giorge. I consistently repeated where I agreed or disagreed with his take and would pick up on his words if you listen again. I asked him to clarify his position multiple times, and also would note where we'd moved on from a topic - all active listening. Please also consider I'm the host so sometimes I'm moving on for that reason, not because I'm not listening. If you disagree with my take, totally respect that, but please don't mistake disagreeing for not listening to my colleague and friend. - Alex 😄

[@Chapman1886]

I didn't say you tried to disrespect Giorge. I think you had a strong opinion that you had made your mind up about, and you didn't respond to what he said. The fact you misunderstood his point several times, and, this was my interpretation, tried to poke holes in his arguments that he never said, made it seem like you talked past each other. I know you respect each other, but that doesn't mean we are free of our biases. I appreciate what you do and I'm a Patreon because of you two equally, so this was just my frustration at the uncharacteristic way this discussion unfolded. I admit I'm sick and tired if the media narratives after the game that I think have been eye raising and not at all typical the way you seem to think, and I may have been overly critical, but I stand by my opinion that I think the discussion could have been more open minded. It seemed like you have been under the cosh from twitter and brought a bit of Twitter frustration into the discussion. But I want to reiterate that I don't think you disrespected Giorge, or don't value his opinions. That's not what I meant at all. This was perhaps me being a bit overly critical about the way the discussion unfolded. I'll freely admit I brought my own frustrations over the last few days into my critique, so I should learn from this as well.

[@gminorcoles]

It’s was very slapdash episode which deserves a much more disciplined approach but it’s a huge topic and very vexing

[@naba2008]

@@TheCannonPod how would you like if i said you had a victim mentality for trying to defend yourself from this point?

[@briansmith975]

@@TheCannonPodlike most is in debate do IMO you were listening (and often interjecting) with a view to push back on Giorge’s point which you are now using as evidence that you were listening. It seemed to me u used this tactic also in response to criticism by a victim style (“which is unpopular stance”.) you should also consider that the majority in this case could well be RIGHT.

[@jeffreyAdewaleIge]

13:36 we as arsenal fans and supporters are definitely being gaslighted by rival and the media to belive that we are not being targeted. Things need to be called out when they are so evident. This not about seeing ourselves as victims.

[@TomJohnson-jf6ys]

Alex I normally agree with you but here you are making no sense and waffling making really generalist comments without giving any reasoning behind it. 100% agree with George

[@RobertSmith-cd5nv]

What about Pep kicking the seat - didn’t Arteta get disciplined for kicking a water bottle

[@dlaldlaldlanutsntnstn1418]

That was Wenger

[@Chapman1886]

@@RobertSmith-cd5nv The media would character assassinate Arteta again if he did kicked tge seat lije Pep did. It's laughable how Arsenal must be perfect in the eyes of the media, while City can do no wrong. If Havertz flopped like Rodri did in the first min, Sky would show replays again and again. Because it's Arsenal, Havertz was at fault.

[@19SPS86]

There’s validity to both arguments, but it’s incredibly naive of Alex to think that the press/narrative doesn’t influence refereeing decisions. They’re human beings.

[@dlaldlaldlanutsntnstn1418]

George is completely right. It can and does translate to the decisions made on the pitch. "Arsenal don't like it up em'" ring any bells? They do it because they KNOW they can influence our games. They. Don't. Like. Us. I've never understood why, but I've seen this pattern enough times to know that's the case, and its very deliberate.

[@yemiadesina7049]

I have to disagree with you Alex. The Targeting is institutional. From Pundits to the press, to the referees are all in on it. It’s not even covert

[@Heeman796]

Alex is missing the forest for the trees. Yes, some Arsenal fans are saying they all hate Arsenal and we are being institutionally targeted. But that doesn't preclude from being targeted on this one aspect. Entertainment is the motivation for these decisions, the narrative being drawn around Arsenal is the vehicle with which the decisions are being skewed. Yes, we can "relish" in being targeted but as the narrative puts Arsenal as the bad guy in media, the aforementioned vehicles gets more horse power and faster and faster. This is what I think George is trying to say with countering the narrative. See, if you follow this logic, the motivation never changes (entertainment), just the gavel of justice being the vehicle gets harsher and harsher.

[@dystopianow.....1703]

Hi Alex, You'll probably wont read this message but regarding this conversation with George, i would urge you to have a look over these 3 things specifically when you have time. They all concern the media narratives and dangers that George was pointing at: 1) Man Utd vs Arsenal (Mike Riley performance) and the knock on effect it had on Eduardo, Aaron Ramsey and Abou Diaby injuries 2) Mourinho's creating Chelsea's identity and why it angered fans 3) The media ignoring context around Mourinho's clubs and using his quick success at previous clubs against. A comparisons list of what the media concerning a situation and what mourinho said regarding the same situation e.g. Media = he was sacked at his 1st spell at Chelsea Jose = i resigned at my 1st spell at Chelsea I can go on and on about this but i really think it is important that you pick up on this because there will eventually be a time where the media will successfully create a narrative of Arteta falling into the same mold as Simeone and Conte, labelling him as pragmatic and unadaptable if arsenal were to fall away under his reign 3)

[@gerardb172]

I agree with George, when these false narritives are spread Arsenal gets refereed diifferently. When they were saying the Arteta and the team were indiscipline they were getting cards for surrounding the referee, for Arteta going an inch out of his technical area, and other things. Man city surrounded the referee and got no cards, Pep almost broke his leg kicking the chair and no one even mentioned that. The ball to the head of Gabby by Haaland wasn't seen as unsportsmanlike behavior. And the list goes on. Arsenal was even targeted by refs for how they celebrated.

[@expppitso]

Alex accuses George of conflating arguments… yet he is the one hearing it that way. George has not conflated any argument, how one can tell is how much you interject before he is done making his point however he doesn’t EVEN ONCE interject or interrupt your point/s.

[@TheCannonPod]

Hey mate - completely understand if you disagree with my take, but this is accusing me of being disrespectful. We both, at times, jump over one another, but it's because we trust one another, and that's how debate goes at times. As we do in many, many other pods! Please also consider I'm the host so sometimes have to consider moving the topic forward. You may disagree with me, but I don't appreciate the idea I've been disrespectful. - Alex 😀

[@expppitso]

@@TheCannonPod that’s fair enough. My point was to point out that you kept accusing him of conflating issues and I thought he wasn’t, in fact I thought you were the one conflating issues. I apologize for sounding like I insinuated that you were being disrespectful. I actually trust yol’s relationship. Just like you deduced disrespect I think that how most Arsenal fans are deducing “bias” against our club which you label “victimhood” 🤷🏾‍♂️😂🤣 Ps I enjoyed the debate thoroughly.

[@ooomsweis]

@@expppitso you didn't do anything wrong. you called him out and like the debate conflates the narrative and resort to victimhood.

[@LumiBoy97]

Alex definitely wrong on this. Doesn’t seem like you were trying to listen, mate. Almost like you came to this conversation just to take a contrarian view. Two things can be true; the fact that the X posts don’t matter, but also that the narrative is becoming louder from mainstream media and it is affecting the perception of the referees.

[@holop100]

Alex is right in 1 single sense - In the general idea that "they are against us" is a victim mentality & not routed in reality. He's right that everyone suffers from the incompetence. But ultimately George is not-only 100% correct but Alex is being either naive or he's just ignorant if he thinks previous events & narratives don't play a role in the decision making process of referees. There is definitely initiatives based on previous events, refs use previous events to ref current events & part of that is media driven. If there is a consensus in the media that "arsenal cheat & arsenal play dark arts", the refs will keep that in mind

[@patob8885]

George is 💯 correct. There is a thing called conscious and unconscious biases. As a black individual I face a lot of these biases, but unfortunately, people who don't have to deal with these biases simply just don't get it or can understand it. Arsenal are refereed differently to other teams.

[@safianofficial]

.oh Alex, I hope the pgmol chèque was worth it

[@mariosdownbad7421]

Alex’s argument is basically: George you are 100% right but it doesn’t matter

[@mightyjinx1260]

Ikr I love alex, but this felt like an older brother talking down to his younger brother. "Ye, whatever, it doesn't matter. Just grow up." ik alex respects george, but this was just painful to watch.

[@nicolascastillo7065]

Today alone, Sky has already released two videos with the titles "small team small mentality" and "how bad were Arsenal?" Yesterday they released one with the title "Are Arsenal cheats?" where Schools and Carragher say that what Arsenal is doing is cheating. If we add to that the scrutiny for not playing wide when you have 10 men, the lies from The Athletic about Rodri's injury and the lack of criticism of Man City for not being able to win with one more man, we cannot be expected to go through life without thinking that the media is targeting Arsenal

[@igboamaezeokechukwu397]

I 💯% agree with George here. There is a disproportionate application of the rule towards Arsenal. A formal ref on Talksports said the second yellow card for declan was wrong and Haaland hitting Gabriel in the head with the ball constitute violent conduct. He claimed Doku could also have been shown a yellow card for kicking the ball away. Common sense should have sufficed

[@ikeobanya5138]

There's really no debate. There's reality and pretending to "see the big picture". When Arteta has to constantly defend the club against fictitious charges WE get cheated on the field. This is not just fan banter or a victim mentality or a drop in the bucket. This is THE MAIN NARRATIVE about our team today. Not our tactics or our strengths. The main narrative in the football zeitgeist is that we're cheats. That is dangerous.

[@bravinonwonga]

We saw complaints against us for time-wasting last season when Newcastle and Man City did so during the 22/23 season and guess what? Tomiyasu gets sent off. City doing the same things that we did during the game and yet here we are talking about whether there is an agenda against us because of the backlash after the game.

[@harvrenalds3887]

100% agree with George here, and I think you (Alex) are completely missing the point that Arsenal are being targeted by media, and now referees will punish us more, which is already happening. This just isn't fair at all and I can't believe you don't see it. It's great saying "Yeah but we're back" but we won't win anything if we're constantly getting red cards or disallowed goals due to this made up narratives.

[@Reesa89]

George is very intelligent, honest and has integrity. Big fan.

[@naba2008]

If Fergie could influence how a game was reffed by his pre match comments how much more when it's being done on an institutional level, of course this campaign is meant to influence how arsenal are going to be reffed

[@docmarshall527]

Alex has dropped a clanger here...for example the new law applied for corners was put in place this season to stop Arsenal's high level of goals from their routine due to the media constantly complaining about it alerting the PGMOL to every little thing Arsenal did during corners...but putting the keeper under pressure has been happening for years, but now Arsenal are good at it, the law got changed...so ref's are being affected by the media to then ref Arsenal's games more bullish...look at the proportion of the cards produced to tackles made compared to everyone else...we get carded way more to tackles made compared to everyone else in the prem

[@benrooke5522]

I agree with George im so surprised at your stance Alex.

[@reecea5432]

Bad decisions happens across the league but it does not happen to city, FACT. City are RARELY on the wrong end of marginal decisions.

[@maysamnabavi3644]

I just don’t get Alex!! Ofc as a referee, if you turn on the TV or reading a paper, you see arsenal is doing dark arts and “other teams” complaining, subconsciously you’re more alert to it when officiating arsenal than other teams

[@matthewmillington-king1529]

You can tell who has been on The Overlap and who hasn't.

[@genesisazaka3108]

Ever since Alex was invited to the overlap I knew his decision concerning them would be wavering

[@roganbray2108]

Geez louise, Alex being unable to understand Giorge's point about Howard Webb's statement was infuriating to listen to.

[@ishowbag9007]

Alex, big fan of you. But I don't think you wanted to truly hear George out and it felt like you were more so just excited to win as devils advocate. Which is a shame because George makes some good points, which you do not even bother responding to. I just expect better from you as a representative. George wanted to talk, you wanted to win.

[@LuanDeJager]

George discussed a point, Alex decides his point 6 days ago and keeps bringing it up To say it won't have an affect on refs, how do you know now? We haven't really played another game so to say well they will keep honest is guess work By the available data, we see Rice be sent off for kicking the ball away - and it becomes open season on only Arsenal players that kicking the ball away is a yellow. That perception in the minds of the refs cannot be understated

[@hasanjaved89]

I cannot understand why Alex is not getting it.

[@excalibermax]

The fallout is a joke tbf go watch the new over lap ! With Neville Got carragher saying well we went down to 10 men against Everton ! And won 🥇 like wtf comparing everyone to Man City 4 peat ! It’s laughable people forget we was winning until 10 seconds from the end u less Oliver adds more time !

[@U.S.Outpost31]

A cynic might say "1 of these 2 has been on mainstream TV and doesn't want to jeopardise any chance of being asked back on."

[@sem8028]

Alex you deserve a red card on this one. A two weeks appearance ban from the pod😅

[@Hiptel86]

Alex is very naive. Maybe too young to remember our history with the PGMOL going back to GG and Wenger days. We are targeted, and narratives set in the media. Three broken legs in 4 yrs back in AW is one example Alex should look into. Narrative then was “you have to hit them to stop them”, and “they don’t like it up north”.

[@baxterolson2478]

The athletic literally wrote that Partey injured Rodri until rory talks ball corrected him and they changed the statement in the article which was complete bs.

[@nesan5279]

Totally agree with George there, are we supposed to not fight back? They started it from the very early seconds.

[@xTM94]

Alex resorting to victimhood in the comments when people claiming he is stuck on his opinion and conflating Giorge's argument in the video is actually peak lmao

[@revival45]

Refs 100% go into games with pre conceived notions about teams players and games (derbies). They have pre knowledge about players perceived narratives and history that affects how they ref, when Robbie Savage tackled he was more likely to be carded than his teammates due to the narrative he was an awful tackler and every ref went into games with that notion.

[@yemiadesina7049]

@@revival45 media narratives are so dangerous. See how the so called “Saka limps off the pitch” narrative was spread so much so that it got into mainstream media during the Euros while being the most hardworking right winger in the league. Kicked from pillar to post by opposition players. or is it Rice is a rubbish player narrative? These narratives have a way of validating false perceptions. Man City could not defeat 10 men for 45 minutes and Sky Sports chose the “Arsenal are cheats” and “weak mentality” narratives. Mainstream media can see what fan channel narratives drive highest engagement and Arsenal hate is the main driver. It’s deliberate

[@mkram2154]

George is right. ‘Kick them, they don’t like it’ mantra sent at least 10 Arsenal players into early retirement. ‘Flat track bullies’ got Arsene Wenger team 118 red cards while winning Fair Play Awards. ‘Soft underbelly’ mantra made Arsenal a laughing stock while being consistently qualifying Europe since the 90s. This discussion shows Alex is in UK while George is in America.

[@timiabimbola2591]

I see.. trying not to offend your masters eh!!! Don’t worry Alex you’ve done a good job. Sky will be inviting you again

[@SoundsFTX]

I'm quite disappointed with Alex's take here. Does he really think the refs don't see what has been said and what is being said? Doe he thinks it doesn't affect their decisions just a smidgen? common!!! There's always a complaint! Celebrate too much, Arteta's always outside his technical area, Arsenal isn't disciplined, Dark arts... Yes we are muscling our way to the top and the complaints will come, but let the complaints be even and fair... I don't expect sky commentators, ex players at that, to just throw nonsensical narratives out there for clicks and for salaries!

[@terencemcgovern216]

The biggest story should be Michael Oliver paying tribute to his hero the referee from "Escape to Victory"

[@CLAESSIC]

When you say that the refs are not hearing or being influenced by media punditry, you ARE ABSOLUTELY WRONG. it's called "Implicit bias". We are all guilty of it.

[@Cafez27]

Read my comment Alex ITS NOT ABOUT ONE PERSON AND ONE NARRATIVE…. It’s Sky, The Overlap, TalkSport, The Athletic and multiple personalities within those programmes and institutes. I rarely disagree with you, but you couldn’t be further away from the truth and point here…..

[@geraldmukisa7512]

George debating with facts, examples and statistics. Alex on the other hand debating with his thoughts and beliefs. Very mature debate from George. Alex debating okay but just like a young kid. The young man is choosing a very minor issue and majoring on that. And minoring on the major issues. We need to strongly fight the media propaganda.

[@joekeylock4705]

We accepted the narrative of being soft for years under wenger and look how frequently we were on the receiving end of horror challenges. Some of our best players had careers ruined and the perpetrators get away with it because everyone, including officials and opposition players, had been conditioned to believe that challenges weren’t bad, Arsenal are just too ‘soft’. media is so much more powerful than people realise - inside football and way beyond. We can’t just accept it

[@hitechj5057]

When will George make his own channel, I've been waiting for YEARS

[@ryloforehead3687]

George is for sure my favorite analyst in the arsenal community. You guys had a debate like this recently on a different topic (I forget what about) with similar results. U guys talk past each other.

[@jameshall9654]

George is bang on, it’s 100% about narrative. I’m old enough to remember the narrative that Arsenal were soft and didn’t like it up them, that Wenger was just complaining. Then we saw not one, but two players get there legs folded in half by opposition players because clubs like Stoke and Birmingham got the green light to kick us all over the pitch knowing referees were dialled into a narrative that Arsenal were playing up to it.

[@littlewing62]

being targeted by the media is fine.. but being targeted by PGMOL anf the refs is unfair

[@whatevername8551]

Yes!

[@fabienb]

Here in the podcast too, the matter is players being punished for kicking the ball away. But that is not the whole story, because the “letter of the law” cautions the ball kick ONLY as a cause for delaying a restart. In the specific, by the time the ball goes back to where the foul was committed, Bernardo Silva is still faking a life-threatening injury and rolling on the ground, so no free kick would have been taken thus Trossard did not delay anything. The very fact that Oliver blew the whistle and within a second booked Trossard means that there is a strong bias, if not an agenda (considering Oliver has handed more reds to Arsenal than to any other club, and less bookings to City than to any other club).

[@harishsridharan8098]

Of course... Most rival fans won't accept that and will try to mock us down saying that it's over reaction from us

[@AffirmationHUB23]

I like a respectful heated conversation. But Alex youre wrong on this 1. Yes we shouldn't have victim mentality and embrace being hated. BUT there is a clear bias against arsnal for 3 season causing us points.

[@CC-wt5wh]

Alex’s hair looks great.

[@AFCbirmsy]

I understand you're trying to be moderate, and from a club perspective I agree. But from a fans perspective and what we are seeing constantly as fans, we have absolutely a right to call it out and by the same capacity, we talk about social media influence on footballers, why would that be different for refs. I'm sorry but having watched football for over two decades, there is absolutely an issue with the officials and the media support. That doesn't mean we are the only ones, but seems pretty common in recent times that it's the challengers to city.

[@jacobs3722]

We are definitely not the only one but I don't that's the point, the point is we suffer those consequences more than others too consistently

[@Nikrn81]

Love your content Alex but at this point you're choosing to ignore the fact that our main competitors do not suffer the same BAD decisions that we do due to 1) the make up of PGMOL (geographically) 2) Officials getting part time wages from the owners of Saudi/UAE 3) State Ownership in general 4) 115 charges of financial doping (are we sure there isn't more) That's besides all the blatant propaganda, gaslighting and lack of true Arsenal representation on Sky. We were labelled soft for years by ALMOST everyone in the media, which led to referees not protecting our players (3 leg snaps). We've literally been referred to as Cheats on the biggest broadcast in the UK after we had a days less rest, go away to a team (with 115 charges of state driven financial doping), get a our second 2nd yellow in 3 games (whilst Doku, Pedro, Szoboszlai don't get yellows themselves for much more blatant actions) + 3 of our players went off injured/cramping. And barely any praise, and almost all the focus on Arteta's behaviour and our time wasting. Oliver Holt said Arteta lost his head again when he's been fairly calm in his press conference pre bolton, another journalist called Arteta unhinged post Newcastle in what was largely a coordinated attack by several journalists/pundits. There's too much evidence and it's an uncomfortable truth. In business terms, you might be Sky's and PGMOL's ideal customer/fan because you're buying everything they're selling lol

[@killian4234]

I appreciate both of your view points, they were thought out and articulated well. One of you is right but it just depends how you interpret things at the minute. Unfortunately, we won't know who is 'right' until much further down the line.

[@SLTG1409]

Can we check Alex isn’t related to Michael Oliver quickly

[@NO-yi3fx]

Alex has called on fans to see the bigger picture and focus on Arsenal's success. I'm sure we would all love to stay in that wonderful place, but that's in fact a narrow view. Narratives can impact that very success, especially in a world where 2points makes all the difference. I could give a fig about Paul Scholes, but, again, narrow view: there is a wider world in which other people do and might be influenced by what he has to say. These narratives travel, get repeated, translated, etc. and have life far and wide beyond the Sky studio. There's also a difference between caring what someone says and holding someone accountable for what they say. Alex, way to engage our highly engageable fan base. 😂 George, bless you for the way you engaged!

[@ronc5817]

George don’t you dare joke about leaving the podcast ever again. We’d be lost with out our North American representation

[@itsonlyjoecollins]

Giorge has nailed it. Alex makes good points, but most of them are 90% correct. Yes we do the dark arts, but in each game we have had a player sent off for it theres the example of an opponent doing the same and not being punished. Refs do get influenced by media and crowds, if 'Paul Scholes' or any other pundit has a clickable take, it goes on social media, 10s of thousands of people see it, it becomes a narrative, the corwd picks up on it players pick up on it, all of these lead to officials being influenced.

[@adamandrews5169]

So Alex, im guessing you’re taking the stance to protect your overlap appearances?? .. because you are so wrong!

[@trinibro25]

Perfect example is that we had folks do deep dives on our throw in and guess what they started looking how long we took our throw ins , another one when bellerin was being called for foul throws , but I can count when others did it . that's a narrative it's easy to connect.

[@tise4422]

Alex, trying to drive engagement with your silly argument? No one is playing victim. Yes, fans need to cool off from attacking journalists, it's foolish and likely illegal but don't tell folks they're playing the victim, good debate but George is right here. Good engagement click driver but less of this, more footie

[@moayadammar6616]

100% agree with George. The bias is clear to see and the inconsistency in refereeing decisions and how the “letter of the law” only applies to arsenal while other teams do the exact same things and don’t receive anything. It is unacceptable.

[@fadatiko]

George is 100% right in this debate. How many teams were carded for surrounding the ref last season. The fact is Arsenal are targeted. A pundit even said Arteta was singled put and spoken about hence the bookings he received last season.

[@balogunyusufseun1765]

I don't have a media with the narrative i have a problem when it translates to the pitch....George on point

[@maiklehmor1099]

I hope you people see this because of your voice. I agree with both you. And the issue itself happens to be because of the absurdity of the rule itself. It seems so childish for a rule that involves preventing restarts penalized so harshly with a yellow card, in a game that is 99% kicking. Wouldn't it make much more sense to institute a time out rule instead for the offending player...say 10 minutes off the field of play. If more than two players in a particular team are off pitch and another performs the offence, then cards can start flying. Makes much more sense to me than what we are seeing. Hopefully someone sees this and has a voice if not you.

[@mushfiqbabu]

Had to put a thumbs down 👎 on this video, just for Alex. Thumbs up 👍 to George.

[@LlamaSupreme]

Alex has lost the plot if he thinks The Athletic, a publication that prides itself in not being clickbait journalism, would just lie for clicks because and "Arsenal are back and people are rattled". Absolutely ridiculous. This isnt how every big team is treated, the main example being the fact that the biggest cheaters in modern football, who basically invented and perfected every "dark art" that Arsenal does, gets 0 criticism. Despite being literal cheaters for years. Also thinking that journalist narratives have absolutely no impact on the pitch? What sport have you been watching all your life?

[@victorvandoomm]

💯 with George here. I think a better way to frame the “entertainment” thing would be around second yellow cards. Why is one second yellow not even to protect the entrainment value but another second yellow is given and ultimately ruins the entrainment value?

[@JanahanPushparajah]

Agree with George here. The media have no effect why does Ben White not do this 'tactic' anymore to keepers? Why did Xhaka get booked for things other people wouldn't get booked for? I can count off the top of my head insane blantant 100% yellow/red cards that aren't given. Yes mistakes happen but not to this level. Xhaka stops a counter which is a yellow and was given a straight red, the PGMOL said this is a new rule, since that day not a single player has been given a straight red for stopping a counter. - McCarthy's kick on Saka - Ivan Toney's offside goal where the lines weren't drawn - Kovacic's red that wasnt even given as a yellow - Havertz' goal ruled out last season away to Villa - David Luiz red card - Martinelli 2 yellow in 10 seconds - Gabriel second yellow (its wasnt) vs City at home. Ended up drawing - Rice vs Brighton - Tomiyasu 2nd yellow for LITERALLY TOUCHING a palace player. - White goal ruled out for literally challenging a player (Villa or Everton) You think these are small things but count the points lost and its lost us titles. Only decision thats gone our way is Odegaard blatant handball away to Liverpool. Thats just off the top of my head.

[@danhodson7187]

For years Arsenal were criticised for having "no spine", having "a soft underbelly", "no leaders". Arsenal correct that and make a formidable defence, now it's "they're bullies", "they're cheating", "dark arts". All they want to do is put us down, they hate us being back. I don't remember Chelsea and Liverpool being attacked for being a strong team in defence over the years. Sky Sports and the Overlap and Athletic using headlines and thumbnail titles like "Arsenal cheats" is absolutely wild considering Arsenal are playing a team with 115 charges against them for financial doping. Does it matter? Yes I think it matters because it creates a narrative amongst fans and even the officials that any grievance Arsenal have is less credible than another team. Liverpool have a reputation of having VAR decisions always go their way, but I don't think they do, it's the media and rival fans jumping on a suggestion that they get those decisions. Refs will be watching Arsenal defenders closely if they have a perceived reputation as bullies in the box. I don't think anyone can convince me that they're not in some way on the payroll or told to favour City in any controversies.

[@classicdansmith]

Alex towards the end you mentioned that if you had fans of other clubs on here they could give loads of examples of unfair ref decisions over the years. I think that’s actually worth exploring and trying to get wider statistics on not only unfair refereeing for one club versus another, but just the level of refereeing in general, because we see so many blatantly incorrect decisions over the years

[@olugardner7931]

George is spot on. The narrative is dangerous as it has potential to influence referring decisions (consciously or subconsciously). Referees are like any other human being and are not immune from being influenced by the media. Found Alex was unnecessarly interrupting George, mis-representing his position, and incorrectly accusing him of conflating his points. George did well to keep his composure. Overall, good debate. But George had stronger points

[@samdown5347]

I have to agree with George on how narratives translate onto the pitch - Alex, what about that time when Xhaka was booked for being Xhaka, when the referee blew up for a foul and then pointed to three more imaginary fouls Xhaka had supposedly committed, despite the fact that this was his first...

[@D333-p8u]

Sorry Alex, but this was the troublesome case I have ever heard you make. I found the framing of 'victimhood' obnoxious. Not least because it has a political tone to it which either you deliberately employed or are not aware enough of the implication. The Athletic (for instance) blatantly stated that Gabriel had injured Rodri to which your attitude was essentially 'so what?' Pathetic.

[@AlanChakota]

Loved this debate guys! I am in full agreement with George. Arsenal are reffed differently.

[@malcolmpotter9528]

Loooool watching this you’ve both agreed on the same points, but arguing the two separate points against one another.

[@abiodunodeleye]

Great and nuanced debate. Love it

[@desmonde6685]

Common Alex, George is spot on. The Arsenal agenda is real

[@Pazzathecat]

I'm 100% with George's comments. However, I can absolutely revel in everyone else's discomfort at our success. I agree that the media's agenda is about clicks however there was enough City behaviour in that game could have been used for clicks. Rodri in the 1st minute, Haaland's fouls, Haaland ball to Gabriel's head to name a few.