How do we criticize Religion?

In this conversation, we try to unpack what are the best strategies that should be adopted when one criticizes religion. Is burning books alright? Should we spit on books? Should we desecrate murtis? Should that be illegal? Is there a difference between illegal and unacceptable?
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[@AdityaKadambi931]

1. @4:53 "Hyper-rationality" Don't think "Check out the big jugs on this Hindu Goddess, bruh." is a particularly 'rational' thing to say. Lecherous/Hyper-Horny or Degrading Dudebro, maybe. Juvenile and Edgelord/Provocateur at best. 2. The deliberately (and explicitly *acknowledged* to be) sexual, and worse, frat boy-like perverted illustration and interpretation of what is normally a non-sexual depiction, is what everyone sane ought to object to. Whether or not you believe the Goddess to be real, that regular depiction of her, is (real) . Whether religious icon or regular woman, this sexual illustration/interpretation isn't right. Also, even nudity isn't necessarily 'sexual' in the Hindu context. 3. "Doesn't bother him" It did, when in response, the Indian wing of 4chan did the same to his mother's photos. Hate breeds hate. 4. "He's a good guy though" Don't think Atheism should function like a Trade Union. We don't have to support every fellow-atheist. 5. "Salman Rushdie" Don't insult our intelligence by making that comparison. Rushdie isn't any kind of frat-boy Provocateur. 6. "Crossing the red line is important to normalise dissent" Some lines shouldn't be crossed (see point 2 above). They exist for good reasons and we should continue to enforce them. In other cases, there are smart *and stupid* , moral *and immoral* ways to cross boundaries. 7. "Provocateur shtick is counterproductive" More important, it is immoral and should be rejected even if it was a successful tactic.

[@neelabh06]

Brilliantly put, bhrātā!

[@gamingsoul0399]

Dude people like armin I fear would literally make a religion out of the atheist. I am worried that atheism doesnt stoop downs like another mirror of religion itself

[@gamingsoul0399]

@poorva sharma The thing with west is that religion at medieval times or rather the POPE rule of theirs was a nightmare for innovator's and scientist against these fundamentalist. These events have scarred their pysche . Thats the reason they keep religion and science poles apart from each other. While in INDIC systems such stark hardline distinctions was not a thing at all because all were considered a path to arrive to the truth. Caravaka(materialists) like us have always existed with every school of thought without persecution. Now these people come with that western template of world view and superimpose their atheism to everything. And thats actually concerning for us atheist.

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

No Armin is not some intellectual who is critically analysing the religion. He is just the person who wants to push the boundaries about how tolerant believers should be so that religions violence does not happen at all. Because however great Hinduism, Buddhism or Islam may be in its message. It is the followers who decide how violent its preaching should be. And I think that this violence should be nil.

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

Nazil well fundamentally, Nazil no sane atheist actually wants to convert you, but to live as a healthy society we all must denounce the supremacist ideologies that some faiths dictate. Also I may be mistaken, even Hinduism may have something that is suffocating to believers of other faiths. I have not yet found it, but if I do I will immediately condemn it.

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

Nazil I understand my friend that you are an extremely good person and I would lay down all of credibility to defend the fact that you would never desecrate any Hindu symbol. But denunciation is not for your lightening your personal moral burden but for bridging communities. I am pretty sure that you are well educated and progressive and so you actual don’t even carry this moral burden. But it is never about us friend. Unfortunately we are the educated fringes here. For example if as a progressive society we don’t denounce misogyny is Manusmritis or homophobia in Christianity or domestic violence in Islam, we are simply duct taping the social triggers and not burying the whole gun. Hope you understand my point.

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

k.o. ed I think you are pretty close minded and your karma will show the obsoleteness in your views soon enough.

[@siddhartht5491]

I left atheist republic yesterday. Armin and his covenant has sent the image of atheist to the lowest level. He is just chopping the arms of octopus instead of aiming for the eye. I agree with kushal break the bone of thier belief

[@siddhartht5491]

@AP 309 yeah what he is doing is the tried tested and failed tactics of missionaries. I am really concerned that a nutjob may harm him and the region will not be religion but person as the goddess is imaginary but the relationship that they have is real. It is now more like you abused my mother I will not spare your and less like oh how dare you insult my religion

[@siddhartht5491]

I am not going to call myself atheist for next 1 year

[@125bbna8]

Are yaar christian missionaries also hate jihadis does it mean we should allow them to convert.

[@siddhartht5491]

@@125bbna8 what is the relationship between missionaries tactics to proselyte and jihadis

[@bw8026]

I did too

[@MrCoolvash]

Thats the power of hindu faith, atheists of other religions have a bad taste of their ex religion but a hindu atheist like khushal is a proud one...jai shri Ram

[@npatel7775]

Armin is not robot, he got hurt on misuse of his mother's picture.

[@Sanatani7727]

We got hurt on mis use of our mother godes abusive picture. And for you and armin if our god is imaginary then yes for us too armin mother is just a piece of cell and she is also mot alive. She is imaginary too for us.

[@npatel7775]

@@Sanatani7727 I am not defending Armin. I do believe mutual respect should be upheld, if anybody wants to have conversation in a respectful way. And Armin was the first one to disrespect.

[@commentor2594]

@@npatel7775 do u mastu bursted on seeing godess kali and do ur female members do that on seeing male god's. This is question he asked now go answer him

[@npatel7775]

@@commentor2594 I really don't know why are you asking me this question. And what made you think so.

[@commentor2594]

@@npatel7775 because u are being neutral, as if kali Mata and her respect doesn't matter to you. You are enjoying judging people as a outside party not one of the party.

[@ravit94]

If you have problem with Hinduism then read Hindu scriptures and criticize/mock/make fun of what you not like or hate or find stupid in it instead of what he did. He was just being a jerk to create a controversy and get more followers and patrons.

[@RAIRADIO]

He is a boundary pusher. But armin is pushing boundaries for a culture that already has nude gods, sex gods, burning of texts that caused trouble.

[@milanbarot3248]

Thats just impossible for them to do because of the wide array of granths and literature that we have. No need of ex muslim criticizing Hinduism, our scriptures criticize each other. Hinduism is an open source.

[@IceQeen1011]

@@RAIRADIO yes exactly. I think that though the Hindu reacted to Armin, they really wanted to react to the ideology that took advantage of their chillness for centuries. where any denigration had to be withstood

[@politicalengineer0793]

LISTEN ALL : Armin For you: Hindu Mother Goddess is mythical and non existent. Insulting her is fair game for you. For that person: Your mother was just a collection of cells and she is also non existent. Insulting her is fair game for him. Do you see the problem with lack of respect now? I personally detest both the ideas. Insulting someone's mother and insulting mother goddess. And I am not justifying any abuse. I just wish some people realise all humans hold some ideas dear and don't like those to be insulted. The pain of insult is the same. --- Look at this meltdown and double standards of these morons. lmao She's dead. She doesn't exist in this world anymore. What remains are his feelings towards her. What makes his feeling about her more superior than our feelings for our Gods? Nothing.

[@politicalengineer0793]

2:07:00

[@shubhashishdwivedi9873]

There is a catch in athiests' reason when they say that they are criticizing every religion based on reason and logic and so have every right to challenge the dogmas and principles within, they are basically covering "mere ridicule and insult" in the garb of criticism. In the panel, "Veedu" referred an instance where he said that if a person mocks Mohammed referring his relationship with Aisha, he ignores the person simply because he intends to raise the issue to insult Mohammed. That's where the line must be drawn. If the reason athiests became what they become was that they did not find logic in the concepts and principles of a religion and therefore they started challenging those dogmas and stories. But no where the intent was to ridicule or mock or insult another religion for the sake of insult. No where the idea was to insult a religion simply because you don't believe that religion. You criticize and mock a religion because you find the principles, dogmas, philosophy ridiculous and outlandish. You don't mock without even understanding the idea behind a story. What Armin Nawabi did stand on the same equation Christian missionaries have been doing for the last couple of centuries by saying that our pagan dieties are fake and that they should be desecrated. The only difference between Armin and Abrahmic fanatics and missionaries is that Armin believes that there is "no God" whereas Abrahmics believed in "one true God". Both of them reject the Pagan concept of Gods and deities. The cultural difference between western and oriental conceptualisation of religion is the reason why athiests would never be able to understand why hindus got angry with the image. The hindus are the last pagan standing who are polythiests and monothiests as well. Hindus have a culture of criticizing deities because we believe that a deity is an "infinite being" who transmogrified into a "finite self" to make people relate with him/her and be helped to tread the path of dharma. The Hindu deity is bound to commit mistakes and is also criticized for that (take Sri Ram for example). But yet he is understood that since he became a finite self to teach fellow humans that in the path of dharma even deities have human follies and can commit mistakes but learning from them we can follow dharma and do our karma because in life you are bound to commit adharma and dharma and these merits and demerits are accounted in life as life is uncertain and this how the "material lok" is. Which is even deities have to follow dharma otherwise they will also suffer. On the contrary, the Abrahmic concept of God is true and infallible. He commits no mistake. He knows what he is doing and "commands" his followers and devotees to obey certain rules he has set forth else they will be judged on appocalypse on "judgment day". The rules are regressive and so the athiests challenge the dogmas and principles set by the God. They challenge his sayings which itself is blasphemous because it questions the authority of the true God who cannot even be questioned. They challenge the dictums, the rules, the authority of the commands of God. In Hinduism one can challenge even the authority of Ram, Krishna, Parshuram, Vishnu etc. and it's not that they have not been challenged on religious scriptures. They have been questioned in Valmiki Ramayan, Krittibas Ramayan, Tulsidas Ramcharitmanas, Krishna in Mahabharat. Krishna was even cursed by Gandhari for killing her sons! A deity, a god, is cursed by a human being and the god simply accepts his fate because by not following rules (dharma) of war and killing her sons he committed adharma although it was for the greater goal of establishment of greater dharma (righteousness, and justice) where might does not overpower the meek even if it costs breaking certain rules which are adharmic. For Abrahmic religions it is blasphemy but for hinduism it's not. Criticize because hinduism allows and accepts challenges. But insulting a deity when you have no clue or understanding of the context and concept, but for the sake of insulting because you don't believe any god is bereft of reason. It is bereft of logic which atheism intends to do, it at all it does. An insult without a reason, a ridicule without logic, a mocking without rationality is nothing but a deep seated hatred for pagan culture which is part of Abrahmic cultures that aim to dismantle every other philosophy and idea that discomforts it or does not fit to its agenda. Western concept Atheism derives from same Abrahmic cultural point of view. Atheist Republic is no different that Christian missionaries which tried to convert people of different faiths into their fold, by hook or by crook and mostly by crook. The only abberation is what Abrahmism does with one God, Ateism caters without God. The ridicule and mocking of Hindu Gods and Goddesses would serve no purpose at all. It's an old trick already tested, done, dusted and failed miserably by Chruches. In fact, it will do the opposite. It will consolidate Hindus more. More than ever. Atheists and Armin Nawabi can live in their bubble that it would generate open conversation about atheism. Trust me, it is already there in Hindu society and no harm has been done. But it definitely does make a change in Islamic and christian world, cultures where there is no scope of challenge and where every question amounts to blasphemy. Another point I would like to add, when people say hindus giving death and rape threats and are crossing the boundary. Well the boundary is already is set- Death and Blasphemy!!! Hindus would react as badly as you react but only on social media. So far hindus have reacted just the way it is perfectly suited with. Trolling and not actually going after and killing Armin Nawabi. In the entire governance of the so-called Hindutva, not a single incident has happedned where a person was hacked to death for blasphemy. And don't say the names of Pansare and Gauri Lankesh because those were political murders and not blasphemy. They were rationalists who also challenged the authority of certain political party and, hence, got killed. Communal riots also do not come under blasphemy. Not a single incident has been reported where a person is killed for blasphemy. Yes, there have been arrests but the hindus did not go after killing spree. Hinduism does not confer killing for blasphemy. Abrahmism does! So, When atheists demand absolute freedom in Freedom of Speech and expression, there is no bar or limits. Neither of the party gets to decide who to set the boundary. The responses were distasteful but hey, that's FOE for you. So, yes, there is no rule whom to drag and whom not. Things will get personal, nasty and disgusting. You want alsolutism, you got that. Armin brought upon himself. So, perish in his rage yet nothing will happen.

[@shubhashishdwivedi9873]

I've been listening the discussion and it seemed like they were not getting what the actual problem with the picture was. Not even Sham Sharma and he was introduced as believer. Yes, he is a believer but a clueless one. One who cannot even put forth his argument properly. It would have better if Sai Deepak or Ashish Dhar were in the panel instead of Sham Sharma.

[@thelongroad8569]

@@shubhashishdwivedi9873 Please consider breaking long answers into multiple paragraphs so it's easier on the eyes and also easier to read. Huge chunks of text will just turn off most people right at the outset. So you might have a lot of valid things to say, but it would have little reach. Just a friendly suggestion.

[@shubhashishdwivedi9873]

@@thelongroad8569 Thank you for the suggestion. I will keep that in mind. :)

[@kingNoynothing]

Kushal, Dont try to convince Ex-Muslims how great is Hinduism. We know it is great and thats enough.

[@IceQeen1011]

I don't think he's trying to convince them it is great. He's just breaking the 'all religions are equally bad' argumet. Harris does have a good point though - Hindus always point at the intolerance of Muslims but some Hindus have a red line they don't want you to cross. The difference is that in Islam certain things are universally unacceptable. There is no such rule in hinduism so individuals get angered b their own sensibiities

[@punyashloka4946]

@@IceQeen1011 Every one needs its own boundaries which you cross the other person has a right to retaliate. Just because hindus are plural and more flexible doesn't mean hindus don't have boundaries. You should not tolerate any bullshit or crap from any one just because you are a hindu ok doesn't matter if its a come from a Muslim or A Jihadi or a Christian or Catholic or ex Muslim or ex Christian or Atheist. This nonsense that hindus do not have a boundary is big problem ok if you do not have a line that means anybody can do anything to you and you just have to sit like a cuck that is stupidity 🙄 of the highest order. Not having a boundary is not a virtue its cowardance, hindus also need a healthy boundary.

[@rudranath8719]

Harris Sultan keep talking about crossing the red line of believers. So why should they get offended if someone else crosses their red lines like posting nude pics of Armin's mom? All is fair in love and war. Looks like atheists have jumped into a war they have not prepared for. Hence the whining.

[@rohitm3025]

This is disappointing. I expected Kushal and Sham to raise several arguments against the other panelists' assertions. Atheism is a belief system like any other belief system. However the new atheist movement is not so much atheism as it is anti theism. In other words when Sam Harris says, "If I could wave a magic wand and get rid of rape or religion. I would get rid of religion." That's not just atheism. That's not just people saying that there is no God. That is people espousing a view of religion as insidious evil that must be forcibly eradicated from society. This evangelical nature of New Atheism which assumes that it has a good news to share,at all costs, for the ultimate future of Humanity by the conversion of as many people as possible is fundamentalism which essentially is a rigid adherence to a single notion of truth when confronted with a world of plurality. Apart from that these panelists don't understand the Hindu ethos. It was Hindus who provided refuge to the persecuted people fleeing several countries. For instance the Parses who fled Iran. Hindus didn't impose their beliefs onto them and neither tried to convert them. You find that there are several schools of thought in Hinduism which are essentially very different from each other like Astika(Theism) and Nastika(Atheism). But despite that they are accepted. These are few examples which illustrate that 'Mutual respect' and 'Live and let Live' are the intrinsic values of Hinduism. Without understanding this they say that 'crossing the line' is important to bring a paradigm shift and to justify that they state few examples from their lives when they tried to put their Islamic belief to test. But that's isn't applicable to Hinduism as it is inherently quite different from Islam. The arrogance of these ex-Muslims who think they posses the ultimate truth and all that bs is appalling. Seems like they haven't really shed their Islamic past. They are just plain bigots who want their view of the world to prevail despite the world being very diverse and plural.

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

Rohit M I think you misinterpret Harris and Waleed as they were extremely clear on what they think. They simply defend rationality and they are equipped to do that even without reading Hindu scriptures. But please remember that they can never critique Hinduism academically and thats their loss and ignorance. So just ignore them its simple.

[@shree711]

Rohit bhai, you are making an error. Atheism is at most one belief not an entire belief system. It ONLY means that you do NOT believe in God. It does not imply anything else. You could be Sam Harris or you could be Mao Zedong and be an atheist. You could be a conservative or a progressive. Atheists definitely do not all think the same and hence Harris Sultan, Waleed Wain and Armin Navabi are not all the same. Anti theism as you rightly pointed out is a belief that you need to oppose belief in God. Anti-theism leads to people attacking other people's religious belief.

[@rohitm3025]

Chinmay Purohit I've no issue with them defending rationality. But they were legitimising the abuse that this Armin dude purposely inflicted in the name of freedom of expression. And at the same time condemning the other people who returned the favour. Isn't that double standard? Their defence is that the Goddess doesn't exist so it's alright to desecrate and insult while it isn't in the case of Armin's mother. And when Kushal talks about modicum of decency and Hindu sensibilities and sentiments then the Harris dude says he doesn't care. He literally says that!!! Well news flash: the other people don't either. When someone refuses to engage in the discourse with common decency and mutual respect then that person shouldn't expect the same in return. Drawing the line is non-negotiable. It is the first step towards reclaiming dignity at any level. Apart from that these ex-Muslim atheists see Hinduism in the same light as their faith and arrive at wrong conclusions. This false equivalence is ignorance. And then imposing their view, is infringing onto other people's liberty to hold opinions and beliefs and, also insulting. That is bigotry.

[@shree711]

@@rohitm3025 This seems to be the anti-theist way. Which is why I disassociate with that. I'm only an atheist but I have a myriad of other views which could be vastly different than believers or non-believers.

[@milanbarot3248]

Sham comes across as a meek guy in such conversations. I clearly saw the expression of disgust and disagreement on Kushal's face whenever harris and that other guy opened their mouth.

[@divyasingh7740]

Hey guys why did not u invite Armin in this debate?? Lol they r defending him like insane! How many of u read the poem " How it feels to eat arsenic at meal".. So to know how it feels after consuming poison, will u consume poison in ur breakfast? There's something called common sense! Also acc. to their argument we r not bound to respect other's mom, then why r they offended for his mom being abused by others!

[@chinmaypurohit3431]

Divya Singh Exactly my thoughts. If you invoke toxicity, be ready for what gets brewed over.

[@duu755]

i am an atheist too but Armin is on different level . He is like on a mission to destroy all others who doesn't agree with him. It scares me and I will never identify myself from his group. If he is given the power he will totally go Jihadi or Hitler in a way. I used to be this man long ago when I was in my teen or even before teen . I just hated religious people so much that I forgot that I was literally destroying my life too. There was no calmness or happiness in my life. But then somehow I got myself out of this childish behavior. I am sure he can't sleep at night because of this behavior. If not today then tomorrow he will suffer because of this self destructive attitude. I am a science guy and but I don't want to go after religious people. If they are good at something we should give them credit for it. And criticise them heavily for bad things . And make people aware of new age of science . Eventually these religions will vanish one way or the other . And they are vanishing . Just don't go mad in the pursue of achieving it just like that.

[@royalsaint4803]

For us armins mother is also just a picture ... She doesn't exist in our life be rational insult will be answered with insult... Btw she is dead she doesn't exist anyway... Why getting so emotional... Very unrational of you..

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

Nobody is getting emotional but it shows mind set of people abusing her mother (who really existed) unlike your imaginary kali. Armin himself said that he will cheer people who criticize his mother for having discriminatory views, which she didn't

[@royalsaint4803]

@@OptimusPrime-gn7bd Yes, Its also shows you ppl cant handle your own Rationality, Imaginary for you not for us... Maa kali is as real as his dead mothers memory... Don't lecture about morality or decency... "All we are saying is treat them equaly" If Sexy is not insulting then his mother is also sexy So be cool with that no one insulting her ,we are just treating them equally... Btw lusting over a deformed deity's image doesn't fit in the way of Constructive criticism... As per his cheer our ppl already wish him best of luck...😇 #TreatThemEqually

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

@@OptimusPrime-gn7bd lol when you get paid in same coin... You cry mindset mindset... But you can lust after sexy women body that's rationalism for you

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

@@royalsaint4803 Lol Dude, he is not even offended by picture of his dead mother, he is actually highlighting them. On your kali being be real. Ok prove it she is real. Your so called arya samajis says puranas are just myth.

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

@@संदिपमांडे-य1य Lol, nothing wrong with lusting after sexy woman body. Same as nothing wrong with lusting after sexy men body (talking about women, I am straight though) 😂. Pandey ji gau mutr kam piya karo aur open mind se socho.

[@royalsaint4803]

Atheists are attacking Hinduism without any reason just because to settle their score with Islam. If they didn't criticise from a legit basis then insult will be replied with more insult.. And Remember in Hinduism god is personal (ista dev) so if you insult my mother(even she is a public figure) i have all the right to get offended (personally) and i will abuse you back and take action against you (personally).. Other children do other way as they like.. not my concern... Hinduism is not Islam so no support for organised Suppression like blasphemy... If They insult i insult govt has nothing to do with this...

[@royalsaint4803]

By Saying that Armin is a loose cunt with dady issues .😂😂😂

[@123Ambarish]

But then in the case of Heer Khan, the law and police took collective, organised action , right? Based on complaints from organised people? Also, people can get arrested for desecrating the Quran or any religious book in your opinion? In a non Islamic country a muslim or group of muslims can call for the arrest of those who defame the religion or books, right?

[@royalsaint4803]

@@123Ambarish Clearly said No for blasphemy she was arrested good but I don't want anyone to get arrested by that law... Again I said I don't want blasphemy law in my country I stand for free speech you insult I insult you back may be I do violence too and govt should arrest me for the violence... Hope you understand, My religion is mine govt should not interfere in my religion neither putting tax on hindu temples nor protecting it by blasphemy law....

[@123Ambarish]

@@royalsaint4803 is it okay to give rape threats and abuse in the name of free speech, especially as a reply to someone else's post?

[@royalsaint4803]

We hindus are very much capable to handle intellectual discourses intellectually....

[@RAIRADIO]

You know what makes Hinduism the greatest? That no matter how many times we lost our way, the foundation is on such rational grounds, that we got a law against every malpractice, we have sc st anti discrimination law, we are the only religious group to provide reparation to dalits, and extra previledges to our previously hostile religions. And it didnt happen when we were ruled by Islam and Christianity. It happened when Hindus came back to power.

[@divyasingh7740]

Isn't this contradictory...Armin is a nice human and then Armin has no emotions. Lol real humans do have emotions! Logically, humans have hormones that r secreted during various different situations that is predominantly controlled by hypothalamus gland. These chemical reactions lead to a thing called "emotion" in humans and not just humans but in all living beings to different extent.

[@youtubedotcom6241]

Exactly 💯

[@sanjunumo]

As Indian I can understand what might have happened. Most of them might even know that Armin was sharing the post. They saw the Picture and they saw the word Sexy. That’s enough for a majority of people in our region. And “Sexy” is not as easy an appreciation in India as in the West. Calling a girl sexy even as appreciation may also not be easily taken. The ideological and cultural difference is quite a thing here. All my personal understanding though. I’m just trying to get into the psychological aspect of it. I think to criticize anyone on any field you have to understand the psyche of the people, as in understand the way they think. It makes it lot easier.

[@akshaykaushik8728]

And more importantly if you want to criticize a philosophy or a school of thought atleast read about it and then criticize.

[@sanjunumo]

akshay kaushik yes. A supposedly non-believer simply believed in one photo he found.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

Don't assume what people would have thought... For you showing pussy and fantasizing would be normal.... But for any normal human being be it atheist or otherwise it is disgusting

[@thelongroad8569]

Well, he posted a perverted picturisation of the Goddess which is more akin to pin up art, not how Goddess Kali or any Goddess for that matter is actually portrayed. So that would be offensive to Hindus in itself since Goddesses are revered as mother figures. And then he suggested that he found the Hindu Goddesses (as portrayed in that image) as sexy, reducing to them to objects of his sexual fantasy. So he's kind of mocking Hindus in a way a very derogatory slur about the other's mom goes in India (You'd know what I'm referring to, if you're from India). Even if he may not have intended it the way the slur goes, it was clearly meant to hurt Hindu sentiments and create outrage.

[@vedantmore5012]

If crossing the line is a necessary evil as harris suggests, then by extension of that logic I can make an argument that, "What was done with picture of armin's mom was a line crossed so that more people can get desensitized to insult of 'non-public figures/ideas'. It is morally unacceptable to insult non-public figures TODAY, but because of pictures like that, such won't be the case in the years to come." What armin did was trolling and on the internet, trolling begets trolling. PS. This is just an argument. Personally I think that the pic Armin posted was not bad. His intent, what he tweeted and the retweets he shared were bad. And what was done with his mom's picture was ofc the worst.

[@royalsaint4803]

father of muslim should be critisided Based on child bride.. Because its what they say is true.. What is the base of lusting over kali maa.... Bogus logic Your pervert thoughts are not part of the criticism concept ..

[@thirdeye776]

What is Harris blabbering? Lara Croft, Wonder women, Under(wear) woman? Look, Armin put a picture of a Goddess as a stripper, is it not objectifying? Armin specifically put that picture and remarked about "Sexiness" and how that made him attracted to hinduism..Somehow these atheists feel that when the light is turned on them, it is not fair. Criticize all religions but prepare for a blow back. Criticize the ideas, irrationality of all religions and even non-religions. But when hurling insults, prepare to receive them too. Just do not think calling yourself atheist makes you a protected species. In Europe there are laws against Holocaust denial in around 16 countries, ain't it not? So in those countries, would I not be punished if I say that. How do they treat Dieudonne (DMM), who as a comedian makes comments? Where is the "Freedom of speech" (FOS) here in the west. See, that is what "sensitivity" means. People in Europe are truly ashamed of the 3rd Reich did and they do fear that casual anti-semitism that existed in Europe contributed in some way to the Holocaust. So they do limit FOS and make an example for everyone. By the way DMM's Facebook, YT, Twitter accounts are blocked. So if in west there are limits, what do you expect in Islamic countries which already follow a 7th century book by a ill tempered insecure merchant sourced religion, that says that there is only 1 God, but also only 1 messenger, that bans critical reasoning? Blasphemy, what else? So you see how dragging his mom made it "sensitive". LOL!

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

Your so called godess is as imaginary as those characters.

[@akshaykaushik8728]

Same for his mom.She doesn't exist now Lol.

[@thirdeye776]

@@OptimusPrime-gn7bd All religions have their own imaginations based on the areas they came from. It is like a Pot calling Kettle Black. Jesus may be real but him being the son of God is imaginary. Mohammed may be real but Rasool-a-allah is imaginary. BTW Optimus Prime is it real or imaginary ;-) I have lots of problems with Organised religion, but I will be sensitive to their feelings. Same way as I will be in dragging Armin's mother into this. But my whole point is Armin cannot now complain after he took the first blood and people (agreed idiots & morons) reply in kind. You upset a bee-hive and surprise-surprise, you got stung. You have still not answered my question of why he put Kali in a stripper dress and objectified her. Where are the feminists?

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

@@akshaykaushik8728 She doesn't exist now but she really existed. So you comparing his mother with imaginary kali is nothing but stupid. Listen I don't agree what he did was right, if I was hindu anymore I would have ignored him

[@luvsuneja]

Optimus Prime You don’t get his argument. She doesn’t exist anymore according to their own atheist materialist beliefs. Therefore, the attack on his mom doesn’t hurt her as she doesn’t exist in the present. According to their own beliefs, both Kali Maa and his Mom are thoughts in the mind of people, hence “fair game”. I personally find this whole thing distasteful and it does nothing to improve the state of the human condition.

[@ashalivarma4623]

I am not into religion but I am into Yoga and meditation and found value in it. As for what happens after I die, I don’t care much.

[@prabhatbiharipandey1441]

I was somewhere offended inside but never opposed their right to do such things but ending comments of Kushal made me satisfied that i don't need to be offended and I will never be offended.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

This is a war. And you'll be forced to join sooner or later... Leave this cacoon of liberalism or whatever you have created for yourself... Because they will not let you alone... So be brave and fight

[@prabhatbiharipandey1441]

@@संदिपमांडे-य1य you should clear what am I fighting ?? intent however matters, that I can Understand but you can not rule someone how they perceive what you perceive.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

@@prabhatbiharipandey1441 lol they make they ground rules and make you comply them like lusting after goddess is good but lusting after dead women not good.... Basically atheist or liberals shift their rules conveniently..... Also they say push the red line but when somebody pushes that red line in their mother's bedroom they feel offended lol what hypocrite bunch.... Also they have no skin in the game.... They only blabber from safe heavens... In any case of major conflict they will run first as they have from their countries.... Only making videos doesn't change ground realities. It only helps in virtue signaling... Lol jokers

[@punyashloka4946]

@@prabhatbiharipandey1441 you are wrong it these atheist have a right to do whatever they want then hindus also hindus also have a right to retaliate in whatever ugly filthy manner they want as simple as that. Here what neo atheist has become oh I will abuse you its my right but if you abuse me then I play victim card.

[@divyasingh7740]

Rubbish debate! 5 guys talking about sexualization of a female form without any female penalist! Armin tweet: I fell in love with Hinduism as u have sexy goddesses. Why would anyone pick anything else? Hindi film villain dialogue: jaani hum to tumhare kayal hogye. Tumhari jawani to kisika bhi imaan badal de! And no both of these do not sound like sexist creeps!🙄🙄🙄

[@cosmiclegend4181]

Yeah , the thing is if u see the old pictures of kali maa those are themselves very sexualised

[@divyasingh7740]

@@cosmiclegend4181 What do u understand of sexualization??? Being nude and posing as a call girl two different things!!

[@yugalsharan]

Psychologically creepy people. 🤦🤦

[@nkmahale]

You 100% right. They also do this when they discuss Sanatan Dharma without any Dalit present. One needs a panel which is diverse enough when discussing social/human issues.

[@nkmahale]

@Mohammed Sarfaraz You resort to ad hominem you loose.

[@rajnikanthnosurname539]

Suggestion - 1.Don't praise Nazis in Israel 2.Don't use the N word in certain places 3.Find cultural and historical account before your FOE 4.If you can't, be prepared for what comes back 5.We have had enough BS from a 1000 years and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

[@sabalsneh9315]

Let's be FREE ! 🤟🤟🤟

[@poonamabbi7448]

Atheism is the NOT SO OLD BUGA BUGA

[@kbd2820]

But they already have managed to score a good head count.

[@RAIRADIO]

Wokism is

[@ravit94]

@1:35:05 no one was asking ArminNavabi to subscribe to Kali maa or forcing him to accept Hinduism, NO ONE. It was unprovoked with malicious intend. @1:52:00 You are saying "Why draw a line at Kali goddess winking?" And at the same time you are showing your disguise and want to draw the line because of their retaliation. So who are we to draw line then?? Morphing his mother's pictures was heinous and the stupidest thing to do in this whole case, 2nd being the tweet which started it.

[@lakshminarayanaBudarpu]

Arminisim😂 new religion Founder: Armin Navabi

[@npatel7775]

Yes, it is Arminism where Armin is god and insulting holy dead mother is sin.

[@duu755]

i am an atheist too but Armin is on different level . He is like on a mission to destroy all others who doesn't agree with him. It scares me and I will never identify myself from his group. If he is given the power he will totally go Jihadi or Hitler in a way. I used to be this man long ago when I was in my teen or even before teen . I just hated religious people so much that I forgot that I was literally destroying my life too. There was no calmness or happiness in my life. But then somehow I got myself out of this childish behavior. I am sure he can't sleep at night because of this behavior. If not today then tomorrow he will suffer because of this self destructive attitude. I am a science guy and but I don't want to go after religious people. If they are good at something we should give them credit for it. And criticise them heavily for bad things . And make people aware of new age of science . Eventually these religions will vanish one way or the other . And they are vanishing . Just don't go mad in the pursue of achieving it just like that.

[@mounishdoli8573]

I want to de sensitize people of human relationships because they are imaginative.

[@bw8026]

This is a good argument. This argument I had put to Armin on Apostate Prophet channel to Armin and also posted on Armins KZbin channel comments few days back. Nobody responded.

[@kashpatel7955]

Doesn't the concept of mutual respect apply to this situation as well? The question is if you are not able to respect what we think is very dear to us, doesn't matter if it's fictitious or not, then why would we respect your sensibilities or red lines ?

[@RAIRADIO]

Exactly. They dont really have an argument here, except we can do whatever we like but you cant.

[@punyashloka4946]

You hit the nail on the head.

[@varunsrienz]

The biggest problem with ex Muslim is see is they look Hinduism with prism of abraham religion. We dont see god as some one who will stick us done if we do something wrong. For us god only means blessing and our god want us to use our brain then follow this and follow that. Second point is hindu is triggered coz of exposure to these abrahamic religion. I absolutely dont support what idiots did to someone mother just coz u sentiment are hurt

[@bansalsn]

Kali ma is not looking for your devotion.

[@rajnikanthnosurname539]

More than atheism it literally open up the wounds of Islamic past of India. He should have known that. You don't go to Israel and start praising Hitler and Nazis.

[@hiteshmotwani3365]

@kushalmehra, I agree on the thing that one should criticise a set of beliefs by reading their scriptures. What Armin did was downright offensive. If he wants to criticise sanatan dharma then he could've done so by reading our scriptures and understanding our dharma from our lens first. Regarding the karva chauth fast, it was done by an Indian Christian and about the periyarist, well I don't know much about them so I won't tread there. But what really surprised me was the comparison made by Sultan Harris. We have seen our temples desecrated, our deities insulted, our books burnt but we haven't gone around rioting so his comparison does not make any sense. You have FOE and FOS yes, but that does not mean that Armin and atheists like him could go rule 34 on them. If they want to critisise then please by all means do it. Another thing sultan Harris said was regarding 'crossing those lines', just what are you talking about sultan. Crossing lines does not equate to hurting sentiments. If you want to cross the lines with regards to superstition in every religion then please do it. But by defending armins statement of maa kali putting on a hijab you are clearly showing your own hypocrisy, so that again means that we men cannot control ourselves and it should be divine women who should cover themselves something only a conservative would say. Again if you say that our godesses are beautiful and love them curves then draw them not in a pornographic way but in a nice more appreciative way that not even their devotees would have issues with. I would end my comment by saying that Atheism is a religion which just like other abrahamic religions criticises other religions and that if there are more people like Armin then the road would only lead to a world without morality, rioe with decadence and debauchery. Really sultan you made very little sense and didn't even answer kushal's question properly. If you think gods are non existent then so be it. But the idea of imposing your convictions on others is something all other faiths do. Reality is subjective and cannot be understood through science or religion alone. One needs to be able to understand it from both perspectives to make sense of it otherwise as per atheism we have no reason to live and would not be bound with moral obligations and humans would then run amok and blind fervor would give birth to cults and fanaticism. And again Armin is in the wrong here, he clearly shows his perverted mind by getting hard on dieties. He may have spat on the Quran but has he made or Retweeted inappropriate images of Mohammed and ayesha, Jesus and mother mary or buddha? He is a hypocrite period.

[@thelongroad8569]

Man, you have put up some sound arguments. But please format your answers better, like divide it into multiple paragraphs instead of a single paragraph as it gets very hard to read after the first few lines in a big single block of text.

[@hiteshmotwani3365]

@@thelongroad8569 thank you. I just thought about it when the whole fiasco happened. It really gave me a headache, too much toxicity. I would've framed it better but it is vexing to do it from a phone😅. Again thanks.

[@thelongroad8569]

​@@hiteshmotwani3365 Yeah, I get it. This whole thing has created a shitstorm, and both sides have some valid arguments but neither seem to be acknowledging that. But, I guess that's what you get when you try a cheap stunt to rile people up. And now these so called atheists who pretend to be rationalists are doing cringy mental gymnastics to come across as holier than thou.

[@kelthuzzadofnaxxramas2725]

Armin has depicted Mahomet as gay and the hijab statement was clearly a joke. It doesn't take much to understand that. I do not like him nor the way he stutters and posts obscene stuff but your arguments here do not sound valid to me. Reality isn't subjective. And morality doesn't require gods. I don't see how Armin forced his convictions on others - you don't like his stuff, you ignore him. He isn't that powerful to enforce his convictions on anyone. Neither are atheists as a group. And if you condemn Armin do not support Charlie Hebdo.

[@toni3172]

Man that Zakir naik impression was the cherry on top 😂

[@maitri98]

I mostly agree with you guys. However, here is my understanding of the offence and I am in no way justifying the counter offence. But just hear me out. As a woman I would like to add that some of the goddesses and I believe Kali was one of them where she was created or rather Parvati took the form of Kali to fight evil spewed by rakshasas or men who did evil. One of the interpretations of the evils done by these Rakshasas was doing harm to other women who could not protect themselves. She (parvati) in the story saw women being mistreated and the male gods either occupied with other things to do or not taking action against these misdeeds. So she took on the form of kali and went on a killing spree of initially the rakshasas who were directly doing the misdeeds but eventually she realized that such evil was being aided and kind of not condemned or stood up against by the so called normal folk which kind of allowed the mistreatment of the women. Therefore, she started killing all people who did anything wrong and that's when the gods realized their mistake and started getting concerned about living beings in general. Kali was furious as a woman when I see descriptions of kali being furious it was like she was feeling wronged by the actions of the Rakshasas and ignorance of the Gods which lead to her going on a killing spree of such beings. Finally, Shiva decided to lay down on the ground near her feet and when she steped on him she realized that that was her loving husband and men are this way too not just one way around. It was then that she calmed down as she realized that she could unknowingly have killed good men too while dealing with the horrible ones if she kept on the killing spree of anyone doing anything wrong. So, I do not condone abuses in response but I am saying I understand the sentiment. My understanding and interpretation of the story of these two particular goddesses was that their heroism is identified with standing up against sexual crimes in the society. So therefore if someone is an idol for standing up against sexual crimes in the society and if someone sexualizes them, I understand how it can be perceived as offensive. Again, I understand where you guys are coming from but the above is my understanding of how it can be perceived as offensive. I stand with freedom of speech and the right to offend anyone and everyone as it is important in critical thinking.

[@ushakumariv2425]

In Hindu society, being a non believer within a family is normal

[@krishnatikoo3445]

One should be prepared to receive what willfully or otherwise one gives to others.

[@nitinnimkar1654]

Useless discussion.

[@rajnikanthnosurname539]

2:1:30 I don't mind Veedu saying it bcoz I know his intentions. He is clear. People should know the genocide which Hindus went through because of the cult some people followed.

[@Progress_Not_Perfection]

Here's what i think Kushal Mehra is getting wrong... He's ASSUMING Armin's intent behind posting the Kali picture is to "promote atheism" ... and then proceeds to explain why its not going to work to "promote atheism" . If you want to know what Armin's intent was, you need to ask him. Only then you may "challenge his views" if you want to ... which contributes to the diversity of opinion... Overall interesting conversation with intelligent/respectful panelists. I enjoyed it, thank u 🙂

[@jagdishnagar1221]

Good point, kushal is behaving like a servent may be he is who knows, we cudnt be sure unless we know for sure logically !!

[@thisisanewusername4662]

nonsense

[@jagdishnagar1221]

@@thisisanewusername4662 nonsense but logical we can not say for sure if armin is paying kushal.... PS : Keep raising stupid questions like atheist 😂😂

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

We should roam naked in streets because it is also a line created by society... These atheist are bunch of jokers

[@visible3131]

Loved your podcast kushal.I think critisizing religion shoud done as you said by reading books not by drawing cartoons. armin's way would make things more worse.

[@angryowl5972]

Harris keeps saying something to the effect of Kali isn’t real to me. Dude, most Hindus don’t “believe” in Kali in an abrahamic sense. Kali represents cosmic, feminine energy and sexualising her is objectifying female strength at large and so is misogynistic. Just cause you’re an atheist, doesn’t mean you can be a misogynist. Parvati herself is not an asexual goddess, but just like human women, you can’t go around objectifying her body out of context and call yourself a liberal. It’s disturbing especially to women because it shows that even a picture of a female warrior will not be spared from the male gaze. Edit: I agree, it’s his right to free speech and of course the despicable people who brought Armin’s mother into this whole thing are scum. But free speech is not freedom from counter-criticism.

[@AbdullahSameerVideos]

Excellent conversation. Kudos to all of you

[@divyasingh7740]

You r just happy u were spared in all this discourse and got away easily!!!

[@gaddu13]

You had very bad representative from so called believer perspective, all that guy was doing was laughing and saying some random shit, I think Kushal put better perspective than him, though from atheist perspective. Further Kushal one big difference is all these atheist cannot goto any Islamic country, but Armiin can come to India without any physical harm, that's the difference to all atheist here

[@mirjalal3882]

An ex muslims criticizes Hinduisim. Bhakts loose their shit and now start discussing how should wr criteria for criticism

[@ishankanwar8411]

I think the next demon in kali maa hand would be Armin.(on art form)

[@nitishsaxena1372]

The 'voldemort effect' actually makes a lot of sense. Acts like what Armin did normalizes blasphemy and that's what we need. Especially in a country where 295A exists, India's own blasphemy law.

[@RAIRADIO]

Ya but hindus didnt want it. Muslims did. Blasphemy is blasphemous in Hinduism.

[@nessalive]

Normalise blasphemy

[@forkinpig]

Harris maybe doesn’t quite understand Hinduism is conceptually very different to most other religions but I understand and appreciate Harris asserting and questioning what is and how much is ‘crossing the line’.

[@youtubedotcom6241]

You don't have good counterparts , J sai deepak views were really good on this topic on twitter 👍 . Sham seems more atheist than kushal 🙄

[@Ankita-vr8ri]

Because kushal is not an atheist..he gets triggered when hinduism is being questioned..

[@thedarkknight9335]

As far as i know sham once told on reddit he is not much religious in another podcast he told that he likes philosphical and yogic part but not the ritualistic part.

[@animeshon97]

After a long time I have come to appreciate Armin more. His intent was to normalize blasphemy

[@sanjunumo]

Ohhh myyyyy. Veedu does Zakir Naik so perfectly. 😳

[@mkvln01]

Kaushal says, gore will come. Let them come, who is afraid of them. They will get it as they make

[@poonamabbi7448]

I don't know WHY neither Kushal nor Sham mentioned that for Hindus, it is not just a specific book, BUT THE BOOKS in general HAVE A SACREDNESS ...We told NOT TO DISRESPECT ANY BOOK. religious or whatever.

[@sunilroy411]

But he has a freedom of expression and people sexualising his mother was wrong.

[@123Ambarish]

@@sunilroy411 but then won't the freedom of expression extend to others to who sexualized his mom? I mean where do we draw the line? That's the main question honestly speaking...for someone, the Goddess will be equivalent to one's own mother, that's why the respect and worship...also, aren't there laws to ensure people don't unnecessarily defame those in power and authority? Like the PM,President, etc

[@123Ambarish]

@@sunilroy411 am not supporting anyone here but just trying to understand the perspective of opinions of different people...am quite confused myself, but yes I stand by the fact that sexualizing his mother was surely wrong..but just wanna see both sides of the story too

[@123Ambarish]

@P G well I can't speak for the extremists who called for his lynching, who morphed his mother's pics etc cause I despise them anyway...and personally, I would've just ignored it and moved on cause it doesn't affect me at all...but then again, am still under a confusion as to the lines that can be drawn in these situations

[@123Ambarish]

@AP 309 yea true that

[@sahejverma2685]

Atheism is largely driven by reason and the aspect of intellectual discourse. What this is , is nothing but a cheap epitomisation of Neo-atheism that satisfies one's transient ego and baiting for reach. Also , in all of condescension, hindus are clueless as to how Free Speech models work in a western society . If you really want to counter the Neo-Atheism espoused nowadays, start your own ventures based on intellectual discourse or a humorous discourse . Whilst countering this narrative, also try to make india a free society once again by advocating for the abolition of the Blasphemy laws in India mainly 295A and 195

[@poonamabbi7448]

I wonder how much fun it is to enter some one's home & SAW OFF HIS HEAD after several years of whatever they say he had done to offend them.

[@yugalsharan]

These are BJP sponsered bots ....

[@rairadiobangla]

Breaking idols is not blasphemy. Its vandalism and destroying people's property. And ever since that the amount of destruction of property and works of art that has happened because they rhink they can violate people is crazy.

[@maitri98]

Also, I would like to add that I may not exactly feel offended but kind of misunderstood and in a way it is kind of disrespectful. Because as Hindus we have a lot more relations between men and women just than the sexual one and not there is no doubt that so many Gods and Goddesses are very attractive. But it kind of shows the narrow-mindedness in terms of understanding of various relations between men and women like Brother-Sister, Father-Daughter, Mother-Son, Friends, Male-Female Collegues, Male-Female Business Partners, Relatives like Father-in-law Daughter-In-Law and so many others that have no english equivalent words to describe them for which terms in native Indian languages exist. It's just a limited world-view I feel in terms of men-women relations.

[@dipankarmohanty]

Arre kushal. Get rajib, shrikanth taligeri and raj vedam on one panel na. Forget about this childish atheism discussion.

[@ushakumariv2425]

Whether there's a religious idea or not, human mind will grapple with some thought. And there you are missing the point.

[@vdswordfish]

Phrenology was an erstwhile branch of "science" and "rationalists" were using it , like Lord Riseley , and get revered at those times. This "scientific" study establishes relationship between nasal indices and skull structure with human intelligence. The gist here is that this study was used in drafting Indian caste system as a reference point alongwith some other "scientific" theories exaggerated in more ways than one which was later on carried by different like minded "scientists". This branch of science is now defunct ,but provided enough damage to Indian society as how different ideologues exist in India based on " race sciences" and created the demands of Dalitstan, Tamilstan, Mughalistan etc. or Balkanization of India. This is only one amongst hundreds and hundreds of examples how damaging "science" has been to humanity. Its now proven that missionaries and Islamists fund "scientific" studies to systematically root out native religions. "Science" and " rationale" created damages on a massive scale . Carbon emissions from urban advancements, biohazards from meat industry, everywhere lobbying and sillicon waste which is a huge setback for earth ,and is going to play major role in extinction of humanity much prior of its intended course of time , not that it matters to me 😐. That could suggest we should dump Science ? I could ,had only I be an "aeithist" or a "scientist" . As a Dharmic Hindu , & not a "religious" person or a "beleiver" , I don't live in blacks and whites or in binaries. Everything ,which is a research journal is valid by universe and everything which is not there is a gust of wind ,thats the "aeithist" way ! (Cough...) Thomas Paine (Cough...) Deism. In this podcast I am hearing " Nawabi is not human " " He doesn't have heart " " Force of nature " etc And "Don't read crap like Veds" and "Manusmriti" which BTW states that Brahmins will get 64 times the punishment in lieu with a Shudr as the job of a Brahmin is to guide the society , the right way. Like as in this era ,we want a fancy bureaucrat to get more severe punishment than a chain snatcher ... because of the obvious reasons. You hurt someone with their feelings - be ready for anything in reply. Were you expecting a formal sing song reply ? I am 100% with those who desecrated the image of his mother because he morphed the image of someone who we revere motherly ,and I am ready to beat the life out of him if I get a chance. Reciprocity plus add ons. Your prophet ,not mine. Your mother ,not mine. Your "rationale" ,not mine. I would rather fight a Jihadi or Church to my end rather than to listen to these cartoons on this "brainstorming" panel, Kushal somewhat excluded 😏. Stopped the video when that "scientist" states Muhammed demolishing idols is the right thing to do ,as at this time I couldn't bear this torture of a video. I expected a different tone ,but it truly maintained the theme as why it is known as hedonistic 'Carvaka' podcast.

[@TheNeelansh9]

We want Armin and kushal to have live debate like this please

[@ishankanwar8411]

Sachin what I am doing in this debate??

[@ishankanwar8411]

I think Armin is a man who do dirty work which others do not like. The catalyst to their cause.

[@ujjwalbajpai5935]

There will always be a blow toward you. Atheism was meant to criticize and help religion be better. That's what I think. We used the statement : we should be allowed to criticize religions. But now subtly the word mock is also added. Then you will add something else. When will your hypocrisy end and when will you do what you should. There was nothing critical in that pic. It was disgusting.

[@stylewithme365]

Great discussion and collab by Kushal Mehra. Never fails to teach us something new.

[@politicalengineer0793]

Many call it sanatan dharma or hindu or way of life. But there is no difference . I devote my life to Maa kali and you support that guy bcz he use maa kali as p***. He is not debating. Only in sanatan dharma allow to debate so you say i should go and cry to the corner. We did not make cult/religion like abrahmic religion. In our dharma there are library not one book to follow. Pornography is not debate. Period You in courage that type of guy. you all are supporting that type of guy who is not debating. And Atheist have full freedom of speech. Others don't LISTEN ALL : Armin For you: Hindu Mother Goddess is mythical and non existent. Insulting her is fair game for you. For that person: Your mother was just a collection of cells and she is also non existent. Insulting her is fair game for him. Do you see the problem with lack of respect now? I personally detest both the ideas. Insulting someone's mother and insulting mother goddess. And I am not justifying any abuse. I just wish some people realise all humans hold some ideas dear and don't like those to be insulted. The pain of insult is the same. --- Look at this meltdown and double standards of these morons. lmao She's dead. She doesn't exist in this world anymore. What remains are his feelings towards her. What makes his feeling about her more superior than our feelings for our Gods? Nothing. ------- Sorry, that is just your narrow vision. Any person who is alive this second can be dead the next. An extension of your logic gives one right to abuse anybody. For an atheist, a Goddess is non existent while a person is existent. Such distinction does not exist for believers. . For one person, God is mythical & non existent. For another, the very concept of life is temporary and hence mythical + non existent. It all boils down to an idea of a person or God.Nothing is perceptible beyond that How is insulting the latter one offensive but not former? / Besides, the same people who are now defending sexual abuse of Mother Goddess in the name of "Freedom Of Expression" were outraging and bad mouthing me for weeks when I shared nothing but a few facts about a historical person they revere. That person also doesn't exist anymore.

[@nadkarnisandeep]

This is like an Avengers movie...nice to see the lot of you confabulating together!

[@siddhartht5491]

How many people criticized the artist? Armin had one job to do and he failed. If i was Armin boss I would have not given him a bonus and increment. There was not even third eye in the image. Majority of hindus are actually laughing at Armin

[@ushakumariv2425]

If you don't believe Kali ma, it's fine. But you don't need to hurt another human being and his sensibilities. Is he coming and telling you that atheism is bad?

[@WalletmoneyOnline]

31:48 Kushal Ask a right Question.

[@siddharthkalia1293]

Big fan of Sham Sharma pure secular

[@meeraparida9350]

Armin is an insane person and i agree with kushal 1:10:47

[@rajnikanthnosurname539]

At 01:39:00 Sham gives an eg that he buys something and can do it, there is a SC ruling on it as well. Please read it. 1. Your intentions show, 2. It is not just an murthi but personification of god for many whom you want to offend in public, 3. Law and order

[@Ashutosh5897]

Only for atheist every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, if object A exerts a force on object B, then object B also exerts an equal and opposite force on object A

[@bw8026]

Just for the sake of argument: Meantime a religion is established worshipping somebody's departed mom as their God. How would Armin blaspheme?

[@IceQeen1011]

One thing I think you guys didn't consider is 1. whether the Hindus who responded were reacting because they feel like their gods have been historically denigrated for centuries and that their voices have been suppressed. So they aren't so much reacting to Armin's photo as the idea of Armin the anti-Hindu? Like they see people in India already mistreating their faith and they model their reaction after other religions which attack anyone who has offended them. 2. Hindus see people getting cancelled effectively and thought they too could use this tool to silence Armin. In either case, the Hindu reaction was idiotic. There are places we MUST react - build infrastrucutre, protect minority rights, free our temples, attack articles that openly denigrate Hinduism - but they should have kept silent about this one.

[@rohitmhatre2887]

Hey kushal why don't u speak in defence of kali bro what happened bro ,kuch ethiest ke "red line crossing"ke logic kya bole deye sale sab shant hogaye, bada intellectual bane phir to ho na Ab kya hogaya, bro speak up varna etheism ke nam pe kuch be bolenge sale .

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

We should all go nude in public because it is also crossing a line created by society

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

Lol, do you believe kali really existed?

[@MoonLight-sd6fk]

​But people wear bikinis and speedos in the west, and there are even nude beaches.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

@@MoonLight-sd6fk no not on bitches... Everywhere... Everytime... No bars hold... In offices and on roads everywhere... That would be ultimate crossing of lines... What do you say ... Also we should have open sex on road that would further be crossing line... May be orgies too..... This is hedonism... Armin is hedonist

[@MoonLight-sd6fk]

@@संदिपमांडे-य1य Well Armin believes there is nothing wrong with incest so his morality questionable. I suppose the logic behind not going fully nude everywhere is? also the winter weather :P

[@SKSingh-ft5uj]

Criticism in its purest form is blessings for mankind otherwise it’s otherwise.

[@ushakumariv2425]

If a theist doesn't hurt an atheist, I don't see why an atheist should step on the shoes of a believer. This is regarding Hinduism.

[@forkinpig]

Veedu was so good with mimicry, brilliant.

[@arnabm273]

The ending statements Kushal ...bwahahahaha.... Abhi gorey ana baaki thha, kya Kar Diya... Saare khottey hai... Hahahaha... Jokes apart, you held your position and stood by your position buddy. Good conversation Kushal.

[@ankushsharma5802]

Everyone is rational except Harris ..he need training.. may be baby sitting..

[@zarghamkhan7948]

you start mocking hindu goddess and people start redefining boundaries. how awesome.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

Because criticize Hinduism for it's scriptures. Islamic scriptures are full of sex hence they bring sex... Here Armin has not read anything about Hinduism let alone about Kali... He is trying to be smart by half ... Not done

[@npatel7775]

Difference is you will be offended by listening to your own scriptures. And Armin have to make a caricature of hindu goddess , add sexist comment and also objectify women body in order to hurt the sentiment of a hindu. Even after that hindu didn't go and release a fatwa to kill him with bounty money as it was in case of Kamlesh Tiwari. But some people whom I don't agree with make him test his own medicine.

[@zarghamkhan7948]

If a low-born man mentions the name or caste of a superior revilingly, an iron pin, ten inches long, shall be thrust into his mouth (red hot). Vishnu Smriti let me know if you are not offended. I will send you more text.

[@npatel7775]

@@zarghamkhan7948 No offence taken you can even research more and post. It will be helpful for me.

[@npatel7775]

@@zarghamkhan7948 And please in Next reply also add chapter no and verse no so it will become more easy for me.

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

It was very sad day yesterday... Kushal blocked my on his online comment section... Never expected this from kushal. Neither was I spamming neither is cursed anybody. I just made 2-3 comments and lo he blocked me. Truly sad him breaking his own principles

[@hemu5602]

The way sam spoke in this video, it was like he just spoke some words which mean bothing. What a shallow understanding he has of isssues.

[@RAIRADIO]

In context of Kali, its like you dont send pornographic nudes of someone's mother to that person to create tolerance towards women's clothing. Also these deities are intellectual properties of a community. So we have the right to put a copyright strike. Also why did Armin first take a nude woman God and decide to make her look like a sex doll. Isnt that the mentality we are against. Why do I have to support his means even if I support his end.

[@milanbarot3248]

If sham sharma is a devout practicing hindu then i am the best podcaster ever

[@ramkrishnadas4230]

In Ontario Canada, in 21 st century (not long ago) rich white dudes got government permission to extend the existing golf course on the sacred burial ground of native Canadian, which was there for only God knows or does not know how many centuries or millenia ago. All appeals and protests were met with force, and so called liberal and human right champion sent army with armored military cvans/cars to quash the protestors. Since Haaris and Armin have criticized and lampooned Islam and Christianity and now Hinduism too, would they make fun of native Canadian's beliefs in the sacredness of the burial mounds; after all dead are dead and are not sacred or inviolable, and they can be buried anywhere or just because their beliefs might be irrational? I hope they are not so much brainwashed by Desert Dogmas and their Godless versions to felt compelled to do so. But then they will say, Hindus can not be compared with native Canadians, they have been in power in India for seven decades so there being a mosque over all the important temples sacred to Hindus as well as Jains in North India; and there is clear bias in Constitution favoring Desert Dogmas, and Government giving lands as well other reliefs to Chrislam,. while fleecing Hindu temples by usurping all the donation and keeping it under them, making them pay or suffer the consequences in many aspects, fake news of lynchings and church attacks which have been throughly discredited, by discredited journalists with history of no integrity and shame after 1000 years of continued invasion by desert dogmas, burdening HIndus with Jijiya, mass murders, rapes, enslavement and selling them in Islamic words, lootings and plunders; while paying incentives to converts; mind boggling exploitation by Brits and their Indian toddies; dismembering India with continuous threat of atom bombs, wars inspired by Islamic theology and terrorism: you have to be totally bigoted and some hardcore Islamist hatred in your subconscious. Armin asks to put Goddess in burqa; do you who actually did it- Jihadis chanting allah-ho-akbar in Delhi; it is just the extension of imposing Islamic beliefs on population; and feeling entitled to rob property and cattles of kafirs without any hesitation.

[@adityabhattacharyya8727]

possible to bring in someone who is a believer in the monotheistic sense? i just think every perspective should be covered... even though i myself outright reject the idea of monotheism...

[@gautamjha4405]

If I don't know Armin Navabi, I'll see Nadir Shah.

[@duu755]

i am an atheist too but Armin is on different level . He is like on a mission to destroy all others who doesn't agree with him. It scares me and I will never identify myself from his group. If he is given the power he will totally go Jihadi or Hitler in a way. I used to be this man long ago when I was in my teen or even before teen . I just hated religious people so much that I forgot that I was literally destroying my life too. There was no calmness or happiness in my life. But then somehow I got myself out of this childish behavior. I am sure he can't sleep at night because of this behavior. If not today then tomorrow he will suffer because of this self destructive attitude. I am a science guy and but I don't want to go after religious people. If they are good at something we should give them credit for it. And criticise them heavily for bad things . And make people aware of new age of science . Eventually these religions will vanish one way or the other . And they are vanishing . Just don't go mad in the pursue of achieving it just like that.

[@gautamjha4405]

@@duu755 No religion won't disappear, humans are inherently tribal by nature. Religion is placebo of masses, there will always be misery in the world and so the religion.

[@gautamjha4405]

I'm very open to people ridiculing religion, but don't want to entertain sexualisation of female Gods, as it's not a level playing field, as there are no female Gods in Abrahamic religions.

[@kushaq1173]

Armin the irrational ,hyper emotional allah of atheists

[@duu755]

i am an atheist too but Armin is on different level . He is like on a mission to destroy all others who doesn't agree with him. It scares me and I will never identify myself from his group. If he is given the power he will totally go Jihadi or Hitler in a way. I used to be this man long ago when I was in my teen or even before teen . I just hated religious people so much that I forgot that I was literally destroying my life too. There was no calmness or happiness in my life. But then somehow I got myself out of this childish behavior. I am sure he can't sleep at night because of this behavior. If not today then tomorrow he will suffer because of this self destructive attitude. I am a science guy and but I don't want to go after religious people. If they are good at something we should give them credit for it. And criticise them heavily for bad things . And make people aware of new age of science . Eventually these religions will vanish one way or the other . And they are vanishing . Just don't go mad in the pursue of achieving it just like that.

[@ajeshphilip]

In this discussion, I kind of agree more with Harris, Sham & Veedu

[@nikkeipvck8529]

ofcourse u do dead jew worshipper

[@ajeshphilip]

Nikkei Pvck I agree, Christianity is a bigger fraud

[@nikkeipvck8529]

@@ajeshphilip all Christians are

[@OptimusPrime-gn7bd]

@@nikkeipvck8529 Gau mutr jada hogaya tera. Usko Christian samajh raha hai🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️👻

[@संदिपमांडे-य1य]

@@OptimusPrime-gn7bd lol how you assumed he drinks go Mutra lol

[@shree711]

Under US law, which is considered to be the best law for free speech advocates, racist language is legal however it is considered to be unacceptable. You have a right to say racist things but others will criticize and condemn you for it. What Armin did is not a question of legality or freedom of speech but rather whether he intended malice. And honestly I think he did intend malice. I don't think he was doing that to be inquisitive. He wanted people to be outraged and that's what he got. By the way, saying racist things and violating racial discrimination law are two different things.

[@akshataprasad7704]

The deal is violence and until you guys can avoid the violence don't stop moving the red line👍

[@paramount6012]

Why don't you actually invite Armin on the show?

[@nikkeipvck8529]

Armin won't come he's coward

[@theleanathlete]

what foolish argument is this from Harris Are people forcing you to respect Kali? Are people forcing you to worship Kali? Will people kill you if you don't worship Kali? What's the problem with Kali, Is their anything that is against the atheism in this whole episode? What business do atheist have with Kali? Is Kali worshiping a threat to their existence or their rationality? It's just non-sense people leaving from Abrahamic faith looking at everything through their Abrahamic lens. Does it means being an atheist poke your nose wherever you want and in whichever manner which has nothing to do with you or any other people and people should buy you on this thought? It means first of all you guys lack the understanding of free will. There's a difference of a very thin line between freedom of expression and respecting others. I totally agree with Kushal on this matter.👍

[@pikachu5647]

I would like a debate between "true indology" and Armin, Harris or Galib.

[@namocreem]

kamada,kamsundari,kamya,kamjiva.these are attributes of kali. what does that means

[@Wisdom-i1v]

Kaam is pleasure....not sexual pleasure

[@thiedevil]

just because you don't believe in god does not mean you can mock others who do and call it free speech...it's just nazism not atheism