Barrel Length & Velocity II - 30-30 & 30-40 Krag

This episode is a follow-up on our episode looking at the effects of barrel length on velocity with the 44-40 cartridge. This time we test a couple of more potent cartridges, the 30-30 in Winchester model 1894's and 30-40 Krag in Winchester model 1895's.

[@mohammedcohen]

...my late wife bought an 1985 Winchester (1916 manufacture...30-40 Krag) back in 2008 from a fellow collector in or Lake Worth, FL club...last week at the West Palm Beach show I found some new manufacture (Hornady HSM) 30-40 Krag ammo for it...looking forward to shooting it for the first time...love this channel, my friend...

[@wizardofahhhs759]

Well which is it, a 1985 or a 1916?

[@mohammedcohen]

@@wizardofahhhs759 ...an 1895 manufactured in 1916...

[@thealsatian4232]

I’ve been carrying a Winchester 94 16 inch Trapper for forty years. In a patrol car, in a saddle scabbard and on four wheelers. I would not trade this gun for anything else. I just wish I could find some of the old Winchester Silvertip ammunition. It’s not a collector’s item just a good tool. This is a really good video. Thank you.

[@WasatchGarandMan]

I'm sorry, I bought it all because I collect it!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks! That's really cool that you carried a trapper for law enforcement. From the accounts I've read, far more of them were used in law enforcement (particularly in South America) than by trappers. "Trapper" was a term coined by collectors for the nostalgia value. Thanks for watching!

[@thealsatian4232]

@@thecinnabar8442 My 94 doesn’t have “Trapper” written anywhere on it. I bought it to carry in my patrol car when I was a Houston Police Officer in the 1980s and it was the first 16 inch 94 I ever saw. Later I carried it as a Deputy Sheriff in South Texas. It would probably be the last gun I would part with.

[@DavidNefelimSlayer]

@@thealsatian4232 Good enough for Joaquin Jackson I guess his was a twenty incher.

[@thealsatian4232]

@@DavidNefelimSlayer Joaquin was a good friend of mine for fourty years. His .30-30!was cut to 16 inches

[@JohnDoesItAll]

Beautiful piece of land and nice collection you got there. Living the dream, God bless!

[@mikerobinson6606]

Outstanding! My first lever gun I purchased was a 1894 30-30 Trapper as well.

[@Me2Lancer]

Thanks for sharing. I have a Winchester Model 94 with a 20" barrel.

[@rayhein8205]

Love your Utube channel! Thanks for taking us along for the ride. The views are spectacular! Happy trails to you and family.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks very much, Ray! And thanks for watching

[@steveoszman8746]

Yep someone that lectures on firearms that are used here. Vast majority of folks can't outshoot the capability of the lever gun. Thank You for the show.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks a bunch Steve!

[@tykellerman6384]

Looking forward to what ever you want to share🤠👍

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Ty!

[@mcbridecreek]

You know it’s an interesting perspective that people think a .30-30 is a low velocity round. Back in the end of the black powder days, 2200 fps was high velocity. Even so, comparing a .30-30 to a .30-06, the velocity difference is about 600 fps. People these days are really snapping up lever actions! Henry is cleaning up! Now that Ruger is making Marlin again, more options are available! Love your content! Keep it up!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks a bunch! We’ll keep ‘em coming.

[@j.r.1223]

According to Col. Whelen and Keith Elmer (on page 226 of the 1895 Win book), the 405 could be shot just below its max pressure reliably/steadily. As well as the 30-06, needing to be shot at the old loads of that day. So, the 30-40 Army and 35 Winchester are well within the 95's strength. Very nicel. I believe the 180gr .30 cal. bullets at 2400fps are very capable and great combination for an open sight rifle. Plus its just dang neat!

[@thecinnabar8442]

I usually shoot reduced loads in the 405 for comforts sake.😉 I really like the 35 WCF. It can be loaded up or down for just about any big game in North America. I hunt mulies with mine.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

*Elmer Keith*

[@davidfornkahl8374]

You put on some great videos! Glad I recently found you.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thank you. Welcome to the channel!

[@j.r.1223]

Yes thats fun stuff their! Glad your posting this. Thx.

[@gwbrush3]

Thanks for posting, this is just what I was looking for!

[@thecinnabar8442]

You're very welcome George! I'm glad you liked it.

[@errolpoxleitner9586]

Very good.

[@dieselten01]

Thanks for your testing. I love your channel! And your Winchesters! I would like to add that the type of powder used has everything to do with velocity variation between lengths. The 30-30 Federal you used was excellent ammo designed for rifles. The factory Remington 30-40 is not very good ammo (factory Winchester either), it is only designed to let owners of antique rifles shoot their rifles without hurting them. I just got 2 30-40 Krags in the last couple months one 16” trapper hi wall and a 1898 30” rifle. I have a couple short videos on my channel. Factory ammo was useful only for its brass cases. I reloaded with H4895 and got extremely consistent results and huge velocity differences. I wound up using 4 grains more powder with the same bullet to achieve the same velocity in both rifles. Spread for same loads was close to 300 fps. No hot rodding here, the loads I settled on push a 180 bullet at 2250 fps from either rifle. Keep up the good work! And lets see some 100 yard groups from that awesome 1894 30-30 26” half octagon!

[@thecinnabar8442]

I really like the looks of those 1885 trappers. I'm kind of surprised you're getting the same velocity out of the 16" and 30" rifles, even with the light loads. That's why we shoot them, though. It's easy to predict what they'll do, but much more enjoyable to take them out and shoot 'em and find out what they'll really do. Thanks for watching! I just subbed to your channel.

[@dieselten01]

@@thecinnabar8442 thanks, and just to be clear, it took 4 more grains of powder for the 16” to equal the 30”. I was probably unclear with my description. Keep the great vids coming!

[@montanamountainmen6104]

I have a 94 "Ranger" 18 inch barrel. With the Winchester 170 gr Silver tip which they not longer load commercially it delivered 1 inch groups at 100 yards.

[@thecinnabar8442]

That's great! I'd hang onto that one.😉

[@reallycoooool]

Conclusive! 20' barrel about the sweet spot. 💯

[@deanmacka4975]

I tell yah that 22inch is a good looking lady she's got some really nice timber on her , a 1 in a 1000 gun . I do like the look of that one . Great stuff mate

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Dean! She's a beauty!!

[@andrewmoens8614]

Likewise sir, Happy Trails to you and yours. Personally, I'm interested in field and shop work. Anything dealing with antique firearms is a good day. Thanks and strength in this trade of gunsmithing.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Most every day is a good day here on The Cinnabar. :D Happy Trails, Andrew!

[@jwall7847]

Beautiful collection and location. Thanks for sharing

[@Joe3pops]

22 November 2005 here in Northern Alberta, I took a big whitetail buck at about 260 yards with one shot. A single 150 grain Winchester Silvertip. High sight it, Williams FP rear site, Williams Firesite replacement bead. Initially I was going to use the long rifle Canadian Centennial. But during summer practice it's terrible factory shellifter broke. Thankfully for backup I had my father's circa 1956 Winchester as backup with the sights previously mentioned. Your channel continues to infect me as I purchased a circa 1900 M92 converted just before WW2 to 218 Bee. And a great deal from a dairy farmer a H&R single shot 10 gauge in 32 inch barrel. Be well

[@matthiashellmann6211]

nice clip, enjoyed watching it. But on the other hand I feel to be in a prison without fences here in Germany. I didn't make one shot since november 2020, the shooting ranges are closed because of covid and nobody in Europe is allowed to shoot neither on public nore on privte ground.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Oh, that's terrible! I couldn't stand not being allowed to shoot. I hope you are able to get out and shoot soon.

[@drews4685]

Love watching your videos 👍 Over here in the U.K I did come across an 1895 in .303 British at a military vehicle show. The owner was kind enough to let me handle it 😁

[@jimfrieze525]

Excellent job Mark. Possibly seeing you soon.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Great! We'll look forward to it.

[@JakeRoy98]

Beautiful country. I live in Malheur county, Oregon. Looks similar to our area. Thanks for the interesting video sir.

[@33667406]

Muy buen video! Felicitaciones!

[@j.r.1223]

Wow, those 95's are very impressive! And excited to hear hear about the direction of the channel. Something I am very interested in!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Hoping it will be interesting to people. We'll keep doing some shooting as well.

[@titanbluestreak8709]

Another well done video Mark. Nice touch with the "geese off the pond". Nice they were included in the video. Interesting results on the velocities...I would have quessed just a touch more velocity would have been realized with the longer barrels. Maybe with some handload's with different burn rate powders. Looking forward to seeing you in Cody as well as more videos on shop projects.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I was expecting a little difference in the 95's as well. Of course, a person could spend the rest of their natural life testing different combinations. My personal feeling is there would be differences with different loads, but they wouldn't be significant. Looking forward to Cody as well!

[@skylersmith9465]

Those geese getting spooked for some reason made me laugh.

[@austinbraune6457]

If you ever get the chance, can you make a video of just seanery on the Cinnibar. Just panoramic photos on loop with some guitar music or just a live camera of the wildlife. Love the winchester rifles, but that seanery steals the shoe. I catch myself looking at the background more than the rifles.

[@wizardofahhhs759]

*scenery*

[@austinbraune6457]

@wizardofahhhs759 Look, George W Bushes "No child left behind" act, was the ONLY way I graduated.

[@Pixx4you]

Beautiful 1895s.. especially the wood .. and even with pistol grips.

[@brianlee6849]

Thank you that was very interesting. I thought the 30-40 krag would gain a little more with the longer barrel. I really don't have any experience with the 30-40 krag but I saw a video with a guy with a 1885 highwall 30-40 and he claimed his loads were up to 308 velocity and maybe true... I know different power makes a difference. I really like the longer barrel for the sight radius because I don't like scopes. But a 20" lever action with a tang sight probably has more than enough sight radius to be accurate to the range of the cartridge and still be very handy. Thanks for sharing 👍🤠

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Brian! I was expecting at least a little gain as well. I'm a little too timid to "hot rod" the loads in those nice deluxes, but I doubt a little gain in velocity with hotter loads would have a significant effect. I love those Lyman receiver sights for the longer sight radius, since there isn't much room for a tang sight on a 95 due to the long bolt throw. Thanks for watching.

[@brianlee6849]

@@thecinnabar8442 Yes I agree the old climbing lyman is definitely the most attractive aperture sight maybe not as precise as a click adjustable receiver sight but very cool. I would do tang sight on the 73 or 94 climbing lyman on the 95. Thanks for your time 👍

[@hankemory5883]

you all prolly dont give a damn but does anybody know of a way to get back into an instagram account? I somehow forgot my login password. I appreciate any tricks you can give me.

[@terrancebyron3840]

@Hank Emory instablaster =)

[@hankemory5883]

@Terrance Byron thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and Im in the hacking process now. I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.

[@williamray3101]

I got a 1894 made 190726" octagon barrel.nothing better.😊

[@MrSanmanbob]

It would be nice to see the TARGETS , what good is the velocity without the accuracy. Show us the 5 shot groups from the 30-30 at 100, 150 and 200 yds.

[@yankeefist9146]

Well I learned that the Krag round is not at all near 30/06 velocity, I just never looked it up. I have pretty well proven what happens when you assume. Great video, thank you

[@thecinnabar8442]

You hit the nail on the head. The 30-40 Krag has a terrible reputation for being underpowered because the military dropped it in favor of the more potent 30-03/30-06. The reality is that the Krag wasn't so much underpowered as that the '06 just had superior ballistics for military applications. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@alswann2702]

@@thecinnabar8442 Civilize 'em with a Krag.

[@Leverguns50]

that was very interesting, not be an a lot of difference, but if you reload certain kinds of slow burning powder you get a lot more the velocity out of a longer barrel

[@thecinnabar8442]

Yea, my test wasn't the most scientific. I think it shows the general trend, but there are just too many variables.

[@broncota2210]

Bought that new lathe finally huh? Good to know.I may be using your services one these days coach.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Hopefully, it gets here soon. UPS Freight had it for 2 weeks and then decided they couldn't deliver to the boondocks and sent it back, so I'm still waiting for them to find a shipper. I'll let you know when it gets here.

[@dogbone1358]

Wow, the extra barrel length between the carbines made a huge difference. Surprised the same thing didn’t happen with the 26 inch rifle. Similarly surprised with the ‘95s. Wondering if it’s cause of the length or the ammo?

[@thecinnabar8442]

Hard to say for sure. I expected at least a little gain with longer barrels.

[@phillycheesetake]

Two limiting factors; 1. The powder in any particular cartridge is only capable of generating a given volume of gas. 2. As the bullet travels down the barrel, the pressure difference between the atmospheric air ahead of it, and the propellant gases behind it, reduces as the propellant expands to fill the bore. Generally speaking; the benefits of more barrel length increase as powder charges get larger, and bores get smaller. So heavily-bottlenecked magnums will be able to exploit the last 10 inches in a 26-30" barrel far better than medium-caliber intermediate rifle cartridges.

[@WasatchGarandMan]

God that trapper 94 is adorable!

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks! I really like those short barreled guns. It's real fun to pack since it doesn't have much collector value. Thanks for watching!

[@WasatchGarandMan]

@@thecinnabar8442 I have a 94AE from the 80s that my dad bought new. I honestly might have a Smith cut it down to 16 because it looks so handy. Might have the barrel thread for a suppressor as well. Great video!

[@tomprince5192]

I think that the closer you get to " overbore " in the cartridge design/caliber will deliver significant changes in velocity. Conversely, low pressure rounds not much as you demostrated. I know you know this as well....beautiful rifles..

[@3ducs]

Yesterday I bought a Krag Model of 1896 Saddle Ring Carbine. These have 22 inch barrels. With it's vintage it MIGHT have been with Teddy Roosevelt's Rough Riders, in my overactive imagination I am SURE it was.... I just started going to a new to me gun shop that is full of crusty old firearms, which is good because I'm a crusty old man. Thursday I'll be going back and might come back with a Remington Rolling Block carbine in 7x57. There is a stunning Steyr Mannlicher rifle there that went to Africa with a British Colonel, documented and in a case with accessories. It might be time for home equity loan....

[@thecinnabar8442]

That sounds like my kind of place!

[@3ducs]

@@thecinnabar8442 You would LOVE it! Nothing new, all old stuff. I usually know what I'm looking at in gun shops, not so in that store. There are two antique Indian motorcycles parked there, some armchairs for the old kibitzers, it's that sort of place. I need to get a home equity loan ASAP, so much good stuff! There is a Steyr Mannlicher in a case with accessories, an African safari rifle, I want it very badly.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I would love it, but it's probably a good thing I don't live nearby. My gun addiction already keeps me on the verge of bankruptcy all the time.😉

[@3ducs]

@@thecinnabar8442 My first thought when looking around was "I'm in trouble".

[@3ducs]

That's pretty fast .30-40 ammo, iirc the old Krags were at around 2,000fps, but that was with 220gr. so there is that. I'll be reloading new .30-40 brass with 180gr. hard cast gas check bullets for my new Krag, I'll be loading at the low end of the spectrum.

[@thecinnabar8442]

I hadn't chronographed the Remington factory loads before, but I was expecting something in the 2,200 to 2,300 FPS. A little surprised at the 2,400 FPS +

[@sethwhalen3072]

I have a 20" barrel winchester with a ladder rear sight at 100 yards with rear sight laying down hits 3.5 to 4 inches high even when lowering front sight to the bottom of the rear sight any help will be nice

[@sethwhalen3072]

Does your 20" Barrel have a flip sight that you fold back or a fixed rear sight?

[@sethwhalen3072]

How tall is your front sight I have the same rear sight on my 20" sadel ring carbine. I have to hold the front sight down so low for the barrel to get level that I can not see it. For if I see it I hit about 2 feet high.

[@DON-df8hp]

Beautiful gun sir, greeting from indonesia : )

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks Don!

[@scottscheuerman6170]

I wonder if in the 95 Winchester and the 30-06 if there would be much difference I know that it’s been tested before with bolt guns and different barrel lengths

[@thecinnabar8442]

I'm sure any change in cartridges and loads will have an affect on the results, but I don't think there is enough difference in the ballistics between the Krag and '06 to make a dramatic difference in results. Of course, this was kind of a crude experiment and I was a little surprised at the results. Thanks for watching and commenting.

[@fungoulagutza]

Where do you get your 30-40 ammo? That stuff is har to find.

[@StevenMMan]

Best guess 23" for max efficiency for the 30-30. About 3" too many onnthev303 Mountain man

[@BillyBob-yu3ri]

Do you go to the classic or the trophy show in Souix falls? You could have a beautiful display

[@thecinnabar8442]

Thanks, but the furthest East I've made it for a gun show is our annual trek to the Winchester show in Cody, Wyoming.

[@williamray3101]

How about accuracy and barrel length?

[@dangerousfreedom4965]

What’s the going price on an 1895 Winchester Russian musket?

[@thecinnabar8442]

In average condition, they've been selling for about $5-7,000 on GunBroker lately.

[@MegaAppleshit]

I really with someone would make Krag reproductions in more common calibers. I would kill to get a Krag in 6mm Creedmoor or 243win or 308 or hell even 30-30. 30-40 Krag is a weird cartridge that no other gun uses so it isn't really worth buying dies and brass to load for it.

[@alswann2702]

The only government I trust is .30 Caliber Government.

[@thecinnabar8442]

Very true!