Why We Love A Darker Batman

[@lorlok623]

I think Superman can totally have a darker story, but Superman himself, shouldn't be darker. I believe while Batman is a role model of how we control our shadow, and tackle the challenges reality throw at us; Superman serves as the opposite role. He's like Desmond Doss, showing us how good we all have the potential to be. He is like the ideal-self that although we probably can't achieve, we should always be striding towards.

[@jdcrosier2682]

Yeah, Sups is pretty much Desmond Doss if he had the power of a god.

[@Volkrad]

Fucking right!

[@justanotherrandomfilipino9018]

They already did it. Its called "Superman vs The Elite"

[@hamoiq908]

Yeah that’s why I’m the darker super man stories e.g. injustice we see the consequences of him straying from his role as this beacon of light. It has to be treated with seriousness and not just making super man a dark character

[@actually-will1606]

Batman and Superman are the same in that they endure. They are both good when everyone else isn’t. It’s just that Batman oftentimes has to be like the demons and suffer through the hell that he is in, he is in a balance of always nearly giving in when everything else has but doesn’t. Superman in contrast is made to be always at the top of what humans can achieve to be, he is always good no matter what and like this Batman is also. Just one suffers much more often than the other. Just compare how one has powers to solve almost everything and other has mainly his pure will and mind. Whilst I am a great fan of superman, Batman will always win since he is more closer to us. He suffers and endures like us, he is more achievable.

[@etotten6573]

i really liked how Matt Reeves handled bruce's parents, that they were still affecting the story and bruce even after their deaths, and the fact that both of his parents had moments of weakness for bruce to find was really great

[@spider-man500]

This is one of the main things that the MCU Spider-Man was missing. They didn't need to show the origin again(glad they didn't), but the were so hellbent of making him different from the comics that they just completely wiped Uncle Ben from the picture. To replace him with Tony Stark, then Aunt May(Who in the MCU is pathetic both as a character, a side character in Peter's life and just a pathetic Aunt May incarnation) There are many problems with MCU Spider-Man but this is a definite flaw. While the Batman like you said still shows the importance and impact of his parents death throughout the movie.

[@HappyLarry.]

It was fucking stupid though. Their deaths are meant to be meaningless, giving them a purpose makes the point obsolete. Now Batman shouldn't be fighting crime, he should be fighting corruption. The whole point of Thomas and Martha dying I'm an entirely random act is that there's not *truly* someone to blame. No one ordered a hit, Joe Chill didn't have a vendetta, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that's it. No greater purpose.

[@TeaSquiffy2]

@@HappyLarry. What? Up until this point, he has been fighting low-level criminals (with the belief that it was a random crime). Whether that's true or not doesn't matter, he has already been fighting crime. Why the fuck would he stop doing that to only focus on corruption? Whether a planned hit or a random mugging, the Waynes' death introduces Bruce to his fight against criminality.

[@HappyLarry.]

@@TeaSquiffy2 it doesn't matter what he started off as, the revelation gives focus to what his goal should be, which IN THIS SCENARIO is purely organised crime. If you understand the process by which he comes to his philosophical conclusions, you would see that's the case. Thomas and Martha's death is always the focus, and changing their deaths from a random act of crime to a targeted hit radically changes his story from one of a protector of the weak to one of revenge, period.

[@TeaSquiffy2]

@@HappyLarry. What are you talking about? It's always been about revenge....he fucking says 'I am vengeance'

[@tux75]

The reason Batman is so compelling is because he teaches us that there is always a right choice to make, we cannot let our emotions overwhelm us. Batman understands that without his strict moral code he would fall and we all need to follow specific codes so we also don't lose sight of our goals

[@laszlokortvelyessy1999]

true, but what did batman think when he cut the rope above his hand and fell? like how falling into the unknown was a good decision if he could just cut it below? makes 0 sense

[@jackmadiaga8907]

@@laszlokortvelyessy1999 if you watched the movie you would know that it wasnt a pit of unknown but a pool of water with just no lights on it. Also what he cut wasnt a rope but an electrical wire which if left uncut would electrecute everyone in said pool below.

[@laszlokortvelyessy1999]

@@jackmadiaga8907 you never addressed the point I made. So why answer in the first place?

[@jackmadiaga8907]

@@laszlokortvelyessy1999 i thought that by explaining the scene it would be enough to explain why he made the decision. He thought that he needed to cut the wire as quickly as possible or else people below him will die. The best way to do it was to cut above his hand where the wire was being pulled tight making it easier to cut. If he cut below his hand there would be too much slack making the cut difficult and worse take too much time even if it was just a second longer.

[@laszlokortvelyessy1999]

@@jackmadiaga8907 I actually liked this movie before I stepped on the internet. But here everyone is acting like this is not just a movie but the Messiah and the lord and saviour. You just made up 9 lines of text and you tell yourself that this was the intention and logical. I rewatched the movie like a week ago so I know exactly that the he was not in a hurry. He just hung there for a few seconds before cutting the rope in the wrong place. And the wire ever showed signs of falling or breaking so he actually had long time and he used that time to stair at the camera. And that pont that he made that rope thighter above the hand is just so wrong because if the generator at the end isn't heavy enough to tighten it then it's pointless to cut it because it will never fall off. But if it's heavy enough then it's tight enough to cut it. And the shallow water below him with trash and debris below him is actually more dangerous than normal water so(obviously) he would have died. (Like the other 5 times he took fatal damage.)(explosion, hitting head, shot 40 times, shot with a shotgun). Basically this batman is like superman in his toughness. He is invincible as a fkn cartoon character.

[@boundary2580]

I think Superman is a really good character but is misunderstood and misrepresented by most media. The truth about Superman is that he is Clark Kent, who was raised as a human. His life outside of his superhero work is mostly normal, and his ambitions are as well. He wants to be a reporter because he enjoys writing and is really good at it. He has a fierce rivalry with Lois Lane (as well as a huge crush) and gets yelled at by a boss who I can only assume looks and sounds exactly like J.K. Simmons. His conflict is not one of his inner violence, but one of seeking acceptance by the planet that he calls home. Also, he isn't quite perfect. He is naïve and in many interpretations is a bit dense. He fears rejection which is why he dons a costume to fight crime. His ultimate goal is to live a normal life, but his strong sense of justice prevents him from doing so. These are the parts of superman that need to be explored more. I imagine him as a Saitama-like character who doesn't enjoy fighting but just can't stop himself from intervening.

[@Thatglasseskun]

Yea you are totally correct, clark is very similar to Peter Parker, and people love Peter. So obviously someone isn't doing their job properly 🙄

[@xyferx]

first saitama trained his ass and got bald to fight. hes bored because all his opponents only took him 1 punch. one proof is him entering the martial arts tournament as someone else because he wants excitement. i dont know anyone who "doesnt enjoy fighting" who would enter a martial arts tournament. 2nd "He fears rejection which is why he dons a costume to fight crime. "? a costume which covers none of his face that he can easily be identified? in fact he did it the other way, his face is widely seen on his costume as superman but on his "clark mode" he wears a disguise *drum roll* a pair of eye glasses which he never takes off in front of anyone coz some one might recognize superman? 3rd he took a job which he clearly has a BIG edge over his competition (lois lane) what edge you might ask? he can fly from metropolis to gotham in 5 sec to get a scoop, lois have to ask the boss for a helicopter ride. he can see thru folders of exclusive documents at will to get inside stories, lois had to use her human skill to get a hand on those documents(oh btw batman is human too and i think he can do the hero job way better than superman). superman is all knuckles if metropolis wasnt a movie set it would take years to rehabilitate the city whenever superman punch a bad guy aimlessly off a building and hit another 3 building in the area. i hate to do this but since its all here; batman v superman. batman took superman to a wasteland to see if he bleeds. if that was superman he'll just look for him and punch him in the face where ever he sees him ignoring if he makes a hole in a few building in the area and possibly hurting a few citizens he so care about because he feels so at home in our planet. 4th this thread is OT. 5th this should be about batman not superman. and oh saitama dont actually intervene hes just always there whenever somethings up and thats actually most of the humor on the side stories and thats also why he doesnt get any credit for the "kills" (king got most of it). maybe ur refering to the saitama on the back story when he still has hair and was looking for a job?

[@boundary2580]

@@xyferx he doesn’t enjoy fighting anymore. He entered the tournament because everyone talking about Garou got his hopes up about martial arts but those were quickly dashed. I don’t thin Superman and Saitama are 1=1 in terms of motivations but the results are similar.

[@Valsorayu]

@@boundary2580 wasn't a lot of the reason the prize money too?

[@xyferx]

@Will N all i can say is. Joker v Lois Lane

[@angrychickengod3831]

Henry studies Batman more than the Joker does

[@TheCloserLook]

Lol, that do be true.

[@JayBaz]

@DONT CLICK MY VIDEOS!! MY VIDEO IS FOR COURAGEOUS ok done

[@k00kieed0hh2]

@DONT CLICK MY VIDEOS!! MY VIDEO IS FOR COURAGEOUS ok 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@deathtime5288]

Maybe that's why it's like in r rated: Joker - why don't you pay attention to me?! The Batman - Because you don't know a damn thing about and I don't give a F about You! End Of Conversation with The Batman Knocking out everyone with his Best One Liner As Always!

[@deathtime5288]

Or maybe it's like why dumb people love trash, unoriginal and boring movie like joker and trash spider-man no way home right!

[@JamesWeldon-xz4pi]

That whole segment on Nietzche's "Fear is the mother of morality" argument sounds like an excellent basis for a new version of Scarecrow

[@moritzkersting7563]

Scarecrow in that universe would be absolutly mental

[@mvmlego1212]

I would love this. Although I like Batman Begins overall, I was so disappointed by Scarecrow just being a fake-out for the real villain.

[@hossatnight]

@@mvmlego1212Cillian Murphy was criminally underutilized

[@JazzyJeffRealTalk]

As someone who lives and breathes Batman and has his logo tattooed on my arm, this was one of the most in-depth and brilliant videos I’ve ever seen written about the psychology of our love for Batman. Love this

[@TheCloserLook]

Thanks mate, that's very high praise. Glad you like it!

[@riku528]

There’s a reason why I started looking up to Batman since I was a kid. Because of no matter how much darkness and death faced him, he still pushed forward and continued to be the hero that Gotham deserved. Batman will always be my hero because of that. Seeing Batman v Superman kind of hurt me because I was basically seeing him succumb to that darkness he was trying to fight but it made it better seeing him overcome it at the end of the movie by not branding Lex.

[@jahimuddin2306]

I wanted him to brand Lex.

[@marvelmaximus7151]

When that batmobile scene came along and I saw Bruce machinegun all those men, I legit thought that was a dream sequence. It completely pulled me out of the movie. I liked his portrayal and development in ZSJL though. But I think bringing him that low in BVS was a miatake. There's a line.

[@al112v4]

No it’s because the movie sucked. Darkness =\ Snyder. Darkness = animated series.

[@concept5631]

​@@marvelmaximus7151 Hard to deconstruct a Batman when you never bothered to construct him to begin with.

[@son-dragonarts7474]

I think you can put superman in sufficiently dark scenarios, but it's his attitude you have to watch and what he does. see, you have the justice lords episode of Justice league where he goes off the deep end and our Supes has to look at that and he later says that he's not the man who kills Lex Luthor even if he wishes to heaven that he were. I think where people go wrong is that they have Superman fall into temptation. You can put him in dark scenarios it's only that he has to uplift and inspire within the dark scenario. He has to be the inspiration to do better. both he and Batman are equally good heroes, because they both represent different kinds of restraint. Superman lives in a world of cardboard but Batman lives in a world of shadows. One isn't better than the other. they're just different

[@sethringrose4218]

Exactly what I was thinking. Superman's main compelling character trait is that it would so easy for him to not be a boy scout with how much power he possesses. He basically has the power of a god, one who could easily rule over humanity, yet he instead makes the choice to serve and protect them. It's hard not to give into temptation at the top when no one can really stop you except yourself, all it takes is making one exception one time and eventually it will snowball into something far worse, yet Superman remains the paragon of hope that he is. Batman is more often about making the hard choice when you're not certain you have the luxury to make that choice, not killing his opponent when there is a very real chance they might kill his very mortal self or worse, other innocent lives. I loved the Justice League cartoon as they got so many of the characters right at the same time and the character chemistry would sing because of it, I wish the on screen counterparts lived up to the characterisations of Kevin Conroy, Susan Eisenberg and George Newbern but that may be a bit of a tall task. I don't really know how to end this ramble, just wanted to agree to your points and add my own two cents.

[@eliahabib5111]

I think superman is so powerful that him doing only the moral thing is his main limitation/flaw. When he does something bad intentionally it undermine his limitation and beg the question why didn't he do it in other cases in the plot. That is why superman can be put in a dark schenario but he shouldn't act in a shaded way. Superman needs to always do the "right" thing or the plot usually doesn'g make sense. Superman can be tricked into doing bad things, which is why Lex is such a good antagonist for him. Batman doesn't need to always do the right thing, because he doesn't need the same flaw superman need. So when Batman does something morally dubious it isn't suvh an issue and can be part of his character development.

[@sjbrooksy45]

Yes there are plenty of darker Superman stories, but in them Superman isn't some angsty brooding blah of a character. He is still the same guy who grew up on a farm in Smallville being raised by the Kents to have a strong sense of right and wrong and a love for life. Now there are also alternate Supermen, or stories that explore what if? for lack of a better term. And those are interesting and fun most of the time, but for me MoS missed that mark. The main character wasn't very interesting and the ideas weren't presented in a compelling way. It isn't a bad movie, and has a lot going for it, just not a great movie and just a so-so Superman movie.

[@sebastianturner2458]

To be fair to Superman, there's one particular strength that he has as a character - Even when he has no reason to do the right thing, even when he has every reason to do the wrong thing, he still chooses kindness. I think you can totally put superman in a dark place, but the problem is that you can't corrupt him - he can be tempted, he can be pushed, but the core of his character is selfless kindness. A whole lot of people want to make their heroes morally ambiguous when they write something dark, but Superman just... isn't. He might not always be alse to do the right thing, but he always does the best thing he can. Pretty much all of the best Superman stories have this at their heart - he gives freely, even when he owes nothing, and he inspires that goodness in others. Batman and Superman are both characters that refuse temptation: anger, violence, revenge, power, greed. Superman has everything and gives it all away, while Batman tirelessly struggles against an eternal flow of evil. So yeah, he's alien space jesus, but there's some real good stories in there. Batman's usually more relatable, though.

[@jdcrosier2682]

Jesus, while not a terrible parallel, probably shouldn’t be the basis for the character. He was originally envisioned as a Moses parallel, leading his people by example into a metaphorical promised land.

[@Thatglasseskun]

@@jdcrosier2682 there is a great video series on KZbin that explores that idea, superman isn't Jesus

[@Thatglasseskun]

Also superman is more relatable, he grew up like a normal human, went to school, had friends ,crushes, bullies, and coworkers. He is a pretty normal and chill dude

[@jamestolbert1856]

@@jdcrosier2682Jesus struggled too ya know. He was tempted to walk away and choose complacency and power, but He chose self-sacrifice and service for others. Cause it’s not just who He is, but it’s to show that if He can overcome all of that, than He’s willing to pick us up and take our struggles and hardships and give us His weight which is light and easy

[@kadengreenbaytalks9914]

​@@Thatglasseskunmore relatable is subjective. Batman is an actual human fighting in a bat costume next to the Justice League, filled with literal Gods & kings. Also, a lot of children's parents pass & it defines their life/childhood. Supermans parents die but it's overshadowed by his entire species parishing. The average human is both good & evil, sure it can lean towards one side of the other, but it's never 100% good or bad. That's what Superman is, which is unrealistic. I say Batman is a lot more relatable & realistic. Like I said it's objective.

[@OKOK-sr2xg]

The way I see it is: Batman is the realistic hero, he's limited by the constraints of a human being, he can't afford to give everyone the benefit of the doubt (especially in a world of gods), so he prepares for the betrayals. Superman on the other hand is like a christ figure, he's so much more powerful than everyone that he can afford to be benevolent all the time, and fully trusting.

[@creed8712]

Idk bro Batman was taking bullets like Superman in the last movie

[@javiartem]

@@creed8712 armor suit, idk if you noticed that he wasn’t wearing the old comic spandex suit in the movie

[@creed8712]

@@javiartem he could though. It worked for the Arkham games making it both armored while also keeping a shade of blue and the trunks and the bright yellow utility belt which this suit was missing

[@generalmortars7557]

Superman can afford to be supremely good because he's like a kindergarten teacher. If one of the humans/kids starts beating the others, he's not gonna slaughter that kid. He will just take him to the side and teach him to do/be better. Now if an armed thug (Doomsday, Mongul, Darseid, Parasite) suddenly bursts into his classroom to shoot his kids, then by Odin's beard, he'll go medieval on their arses, and rightfuly so. I don't think Superman is fully trusting, though. If written well, he is fully HOPEFUL, which is an entirely different thing.

[@ez6888]

@@generalmortars7557 yup .. Superman is the hero that shines a light on the path to the best possible outcome, whereas Batman is there lurking in the shadows of the worst possible outcome. Batman is like that last line of defense trying to keep the chaos at bay, so that there can atleast be a tomorrow. Superman IS the tomorrow (Man of Tomorrow).

[@chase7764]

One of my favorite interpretations of Batman and Superman is in the animated universe. The two reflect their ideals so perfectly there and compliment eachother, yet also disrupt eachother. Superman being the optimist he is in that series at first seems like your basic version of him, however, through his interactions with Batman he learns the darker aspects of life. He learns about the insane and the depressing aspects of people more than ever as he sees Batman’s villains and Batman himself. Through Batman, Superman sees a darker aspect of life and it actually balances him throughout the series. In the animated series Superman is portrayed as a pure and innocent optimist who is a true model of good, however, this innocence obviously makes the hard truths of reality a hard thing to face. Superman has struggled with making choices in very nuanced situations, where neither side is truly good or evil. He’s such an optimist that in those situations he can freeze. But through Batman he learns a different solution to this issue of his. Superman sees the power of Batman and how human he is, and Superman comes to idolize this. He thinks it’s so amazing how Batman can be such a hurt and angry individual, someone who makes mistakes and isn’t perfect by any means, yet can still fight selflessly and help those in need. He sees that despite having a very flawed mind and heart, Batman is able to stand firm in his principles even if it costs him. In most canon, superman is Batman’s biggest fan. And vice versa, Batman learns quite a bit from Superman to in the animated universe. Batman is very flawed and very cynical to the point he struggles with friendship and intimacy quite a lot, making him the broody bat we know. He sometimes makes bad choices due to this and messes up, as that is part of the humanity in his character. He is often also stubborn and stands too much by his principles when reasonably he should let go a little. Batman however never gives up even after a failure. Superman sees this all, as he is such an optimist who can truly see the mass good in Batman. Supes loves and tries to helps Bats because due to his compassion and innocence, he sees Batman as more than a brutal vigilante or edgelord. He sees the sad child in the alleyway and also the man who suits up every night for the sake of his city despite having no powers. Superman understands Batman and Batman sees this. Through Superman’s optimism and compassion, Batman has learned how to better stand firm without being too stubborn and also how to let people inside his heart. Batman also sees Superman. He sees how optimistic and kind Superman is to everyone, and he sees how many times that really does inspire and help the world. He sees Superman’s inhuman perfections that are in display almost all the time he’s around, yet also the humanity within him when he’s faced with a difficult task like the darkness of the mind or difficult grey scenarios. Batman also sees that similar to himself, Superman never gives up either. He sees Superman always try to understand and learn. Batman sees Superman and begins to idolize Superman just as much as Superman idolizes Batman. The two are so similar but also excel in the weakness of the other. Batman is a fighter of the dark while Superman is an embracer of the light. Batman fights off his demons in basically blood while superman is somehow immune to his most of the time yet struggles when he faces situations where some darkness is just needed. They compliment eachother and slowly become such good friends due to this. It starts very rocky but as they see eachother for their true selves and being to understand eachother, their friendship quickly blossoms. That’s why when you ask Batman or Superman who their favorite hero is, they will say eachother. That’s the duality of Batman and Superman, a duality I feel most writers have forgotten. Superman is an extreme optimist, Batman is an extreme realist, but neither are cynics. Both can stand on their own, but through their compassion and love for justice they can stand together. They are truly the world’s finest.

[@Captain_tiberius]

To offer my thoughts on your question on superman: The vast complexity of the character lies in the hard simplicity of the character. he is the Super man, not because of his power, but because he has this power, and dose not use it to feed his selfish desires. Batman works best in darker narratives, because its his fundamental trial as a hero, to dance on the edge of evil but not fall. Superman doesn't fit that tone as well, because his trail as a hero is that he CANT fall, he cant ever indulge, or he simple isn't the the Superman anymore, he's another Homer lander, or an Omni man. so its not that the character cant be put in hell, but that you have to maintain that purity. He IS his righteousness, as much as Batman is his darkness.

[@montenegroafro4454]

Very well said. Batman embodies the shadows, but Superman more so embodies the light.

[@sjbrooksy45]

Very good points. It is why Superman doesn't have a concrete "don't kill" policy like Batman, but is considered the "Boy Scout". He may make mistakes, but his morality is never in question. He does the right thing.

[@Jay9966]

@@sjbrooksy45 I think the only main justice leaguer that don't have a concrete no killing policy is Wonder Woman. Superman doesn't kill, he's never been depicted to kill (on purpose).

[@Batman88878]

One thing about the "Superman is so perfect" argument: sure, it's improbable to live up to his goodness because people will get on your nerves with their stupidity &/or asshole behavior. However, something that's fascinating about him is that he chooses not to use his abilities to punish people who get on his nerves or wrong him. He chooses to see himself as one of us as opposed to above us. He's also a case of nature vs. nurture, as quite a few evil Superman types have had bad/sterile/rigid upbringings & they turn to violence & megalomania. Superman was loved by both sets of his parents. Jor-El & Lara loved him so much that they sent him away to keep him from death (& left a message to let him know this); the Kents adopted him & raised him as their own, helping him deal with the onset of his incredible powers during his youth.

[@concept5631]

Imagine being lucky enough to have two pairs of good parents.

[@magi9194]

For that intro line about Man of Steel. I think it's in part with how Clark wasn't really superman, he never seemed to leave the reluctance stage of the hero's journey, and by the end of it, he wasn't really a beacon of light within that darkness. He was just some random guy wearing Superman's outfit, but not really showing his ideals or values. Batman by the end of this movie understands that he can't just be a symbol of fear and vengeance, since the Ridder's incel forum co-opted that. So he realizes that he should also be a symbol of justice and hope for those who strive and hope for a better future.

[@TheCloserLook]

That is a part of it. Superman is a paragon of good, if you change that, you've undermined the core appeal of who he is.

[@magi9194]

I guess that's also why people were really upset about Batfleck using guns. Since they both end up like edgy counterparts rather than dark mirrors

[@redharrison894]

Symbol of justice? Congrats you just described someone else and not Batman! Does Matt Reeves hates Batman?

[@kaidouofthehundreds9532]

@@redharrison894 Go and read a Batman comic book and you will know that Batman is the ultimate symbol of justice.Your naive ass knows nothing about Batman lol

[@KenSahaja]

@@redharrison894 isn't that the point of Batman? He's a symbol of fear for criminals. but for innocents, that symbol gives safety and hope when the signal comes on.

[@danieldanghyan3725]

When you were talking about Batman’s courage, it reminded me of one of the quotes from Gandalf: “True courage is not in having the strength to take a life, but in knowing when to spare one”. (I might not have the words exactly right, but you get the point.) Interestingly seems Batman’s character is a great representation of the quote.

[@greyworld6242]

If fear is the mother of mortality, then the father is the consequences of breaking that morality. Damn this was a great video!

[@Theleaver5088]

morality*

[@grumpyorgre2336]

Awesome quote,man

[@lassegrotkjr6326]

I like your user name.

[@TomFoxArts]

Superman can and should have darker stories, so long as the character and heroism of Supe himself is kept intact. For a good example, I recommend reading Death of Superman. It's full of wanton destruction, tragic loss, and we see many heroes fall to the might of overwhelming evil. Yet there is also self-sacrifice, perseverance, and the message that, though the cost may be great, good will always triumph over evil. That battle is always worth fighting. Though heroes may fall, it is up to us to make sure their sacrifice is not in vain. Please go read comics, people, especially older ones. They have more depth, creativity, and things to say than the average person gives them credit for

[@sjbrooksy45]

The Superman cartoon has an episode where Darkseid invades, beats the hell out of Superman, puts in him chains, parades him through the streets of Metropolis as a warning for the rest of Earth, and murders a cop right in front of him. The episode ends with Superman visiting the cop's grave saying "in the end the world didn't need a superman, just a brave one." MF BOOM! That is Superman. Deep compassion for others.

[@jamestolbert1856]

He’s went through trials too. His enemies and struggles help test his virtues and compassion and remembers who he needs to be and his parents told him to always hope

[@theirongiants]

It adds CONTRAST to the story.

[@GiulianaBruna]

We like Batman because he brings hope from a Grimdark place. He is a destabilizing force for that Evil estructure.The piece of the machine that wont stay in place. Superman stories are about bringing peace and order back to an initialy good place that just happens bo be going through crisis, a good city, with good people, in a bad moment. Batman will rescue imperfect people from the ashes of a city who is always burning down.

[@cryptic9807]

Another part of Batman I think we all love is that he's human, not just in the way that he's mortal, but that we connect with him on a mental level. That's one thing I loved about The Batman, it explores his humanity and lets us connect with him more than any other Batman or dare I say superhero film before it. It's relatable, real. It's a hallmark of any great film, Shawshank, Forrest Gump, and the Green Mile all come to mind. Making the characters relatable and giving insight to their mental and emotional state endears us to them and makes them feel real. Imo, purely as a film and even as a CBM, I think the Batman is better than the rest (though nothing will EVER top the joyride the dark knight is, like holy shit nothing can touch that movie in terms of action and thrill)

[@bluboy2317]

The baptism scene works because of a darker tone we get to truly see it at it’s lowest to the point you feel only Batman could save gotham from itself. When Batman falls he learns to not destroy evil but to preserve good and the themes are implemented well because the light shines so bright surrounded by darkness.

[@Alhorfordlover123]

“He’s both an angel and a demon.” Yes. He’s human

[@markwilliams1892]

One thing that wasn't pointed out about Superman, is that he has the strength to be one of the worst bad guys in existence, and he chooses not to. That in itself is very heroic, and something that Batman can't quite do, at least not in the same way.

[@concept5631]

Whenever Batman gains Superman-like powers, he almost always gets overwhelmed by the power and goes nuts. Clark Kent is just built different.

[@StoryTimeCritic]

Batman is the richest. He has been chased by cops. Mentally hurt as a child. It's easier for batman to become a villain. But he is stronger as a human to choose justice. That makes a better hero any day. A real man who doesn't use his past issues to choose the easy way out. Come on bro

[@StoryTimeCritic]

​@@concept5631Clark slowly developed ... so not really... Clark took years before becoming superman. And he didn't even fly until the last season of small ville

[@concept5631]

@@StoryTimeCritic Smallville isn't the only version of Superman bro.

[@StoryTimeCritic]

@@concept5631 yes but still. Superman grows up and gets his powers. Batman has to earn them... being rich isn't his only power

[@JulyssaMT]

I often feel like I’m “not allowed” to like Batman because everyone complains that he’s too dark. Thank you for enlightening me about how important his darkness is.

[@kiroto7429]

Get new people

[@akodaah13-e32]

@The Modern Day Warrior yeap, and, really, we all know he is too dark, but still (almost) everyone loves it

[@kiwitokiwigaya4560]

Don't focus on what others say if you like something than you like it and if people tell you otherwise stop listening to them

[@creativeusername3408]

Most people think he’s for kids

[@echostik]

Thats the dumbest thing ive ever heard. dont listen to 'people'

[@nhsl4446]

"You just couldn't let me go, could you? This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. You truly are incorruptible, aren't you, huh? You won't kill me out of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness, and I won't kill you because you're just too much fun. I think you and I are destined to do this forever." -The Joker to Batman (The Dark Knight)

[@nerd_1356]

I knew you would cover "The Batman" after it's release since you made a video talking about the core of Batman before :)

[@TheCloserLook]

This movie just nailed the soul of batman. Like everything Snyder did wrong, Reeves did right.

[@nerd_1356]

@@TheCloserLook Couldn't agree more!

[@nerdtube8194]

@@TheCloserLook I would hate to disagree with you but Snyder doesn't get everything wrong with Batman. He does do detective work at a couple times in batman V superman.

[@kinga.t.242]

@@nerdtube8194 yes but reeves did it better

[@Red_Spidey]

@@nerdtube8194 sure having batman using machine gun is not wrong

[@AFreakingAxeCH]

The best way to resolve that Superman vs Batman as role model is basically like this. Superman is perfect in a way, that's why he's SUPERman, he is perfect and we can only strive to be near his perfection Batman on the other hand is the epitome of human grit and will. He is an example of what the best of us can do, in all areas. Superman is what we SHOULD be, Batman is what we COULD be.

[@manuelfernandez4798]

I like how Batman can think like "What would I do if I was the villain". And not as in "What would the villain do".

[@theskiesupabove106]

What I love about this video is the commentary you're able to provide not just on the character of Batman but just generally on humanity itself, about morality and what it means to be human. It gives me a lot to think about and I've rewatched this video so many times because this shit is so damn interesting. Thank you for making this video, it's one of my favourite videos i've ever seen on youtube.

[@brookb5890]

You make some excellent points about a darker Batman, but I don't think that Superman can't fundamentally be part of a darker story. Look at Superman: The Red Son or even Smallville. These stories deal with some pretty dark truths about human nature and Superman, though not human, suffers from the same desires and fallacies of human nature. I think the problem most of the Superman examples we see in cinema is that rather than giving Clark these desires and have him cope with them in a way any other ordinary man would, they alienate Clark in his struggles. Superman, despite being an alien, is very human and craves the companionship that all humans need. He smiles, he jokes, he comforts and he needs those things from others. What makes Aragorn compelling? I would argue that it isn't his badassery or his history, but the way he struggles between his duty, destiny, and personal relationships. This is what I think Man of Steel and every recently made Superman movie lacks. That struggle is just never written in a compelling manner and his relationships are never fleshed out in a way to make the audience care.

[@nalday2534]

This. Anything with any tone can work. It's storytelling, not algorithmic formulas. They just have to be well written and conflict has to be well integrated and explored. Man Of Steel lacked that.

[@hopelesslyoptimistic8231]

The whole point of Superman is that he is suppose the best of humanity. The fact that an alien with super powers can be more human than others. The point is that with powers or not, he is super in every regard. His compassion, love, strength, and hope is what makes him super. Superman should the character to be put in a dark situation and completely radiate it with positive energy. Man of Steel showed how complicated being this godly man would be but I that’s not Superman. Superman wouldn’t question his powers because he sees himself as a normal man but with the ability to help people with his powers when he can.

[@flaviomonteiro1414]

I came to watch this video as a form of escapism, ended up learning so much about myself and how to be better. Thanks buddy, I really appreciate that.

[@Vashtorr758]

Superman is the beacon of light or hope that everyone can go to for protection. Batman is the mastery of using darker things like torture, usage of fear, weapons, and other things outside of the hero light.

[@godzillazfriction]

@Moviepilotfan I am your mother

[@Vashtorr758]

@Moviepilotfan Okay, can you explain so I can learn?

[@Vashtorr758]

@Moviepilotfan Funny how you don’t respond huh?

[@christophervalentine4474]

I get what you’re saying about batman but I still think it applies pretty well to Superman. After all long-time fans of the character have said for a long time that he could’ve taken over the world anytime he wished and with his immense speed and strength without facing any social consequences. But he doesn’t do that not out of fear like you said but a rather desire to be good. And if I’m not mistaken isn’t this the entire premise of one of his most famous comic books “What’s so funny about truth, justice and the American way?

[@threalballguy]

These are always so interesting! Makes me think so much deeper about story than I used to!

[@TheCloserLook]

Thanks man!

[@magical2145]

its not that deep

[@theirongiants]

@@magical2145 Ah yes edgy teenager.

[@olliehux]

I think this is one of the best and of the most accurate video essays I’ve ever seen I’m glad someone else finally understands why I love batman, it’s not because he’s edgy or because he beats people to a pulp it’s these very reasons

[@bunchofcds2300]

I think this is why I love darker and more serious stories like this, because they have a great capacity to showcase the best and the worst of us, and show that people can do some of the most heroic things even when the gravity of the situation is fighting against them. Also, regarding Batman, I agree with this so much, because we all have an angel and a devil on our shoulders. Sometimes we listen to one and sometimes the other, but Batman is what happens when you listen to both at the same time. Yet in spite of all of that, he never loses himself, and keeps control in spite of the demons facing him. To quote the man himself, "There's a difference between us. We both looked into the abyss, but when it looked back at us, you blinked." (Batman to Owlman, Crisis on Two Earths).

[@emmanuelskyler1148]

Superman and Lois really portrays Superman in an inspiring way. He showed that he feels anger too but despite the state of the world around him, he remains virtuous. Surely Superman and Bruce are different people, for one Clark isn't traumatized like Bruce is and I admire the Bat's strength in taming his demon and choosing good. They're both heroes according to and in spite of their circumstances

[@timmaloney9976]

This was a fantastic look at Batman's character, excellent work. On a more personal note, Batman is my personal hero and so is Desmond Doss; it really meant a lot to me on a personal level that he never used a gun and his courage in the face of overwhelming horrors. How you were able to combine both him and Batman meant a whole lot to me. Thank you very much for doing that, and keep up the great work as well.

[@TheCloserLook]

Thanks, Tim. I will!

[@HinnyHinaika]

This video inspires me greatly, thank you for the analysis. I survived a very rough childhood, but its lasting effects still impact aspects of my life to this day. Why story telling themes like 'Sin of the Father', 'True Heroic choice despite living in Hell' and 'Master our Shadow' resonate with me deeply. The movie does indeed give an incredibly valuable lesson. You literally explained to me why I've always personally felt Batman is my coolest superhero. Whenever I feel the darkness within me is taking over, I'll remember to become my own everyday Batman.

[@EZFrags]

I can confirm that we do indeed need a darker Batman

[@GabesEdtiz]

@DONT CLICK MY VIDEOS!! MY VIDEO IS FOR COURAGEOUS kind of hard to do that when it’s literally the first thing we notice when reading your comment

[@auerbacher69]

me, seeing any batman: "does it come in black?"

[@generalmortars7557]

Do we? My brother is THE biggest Batfan I've ever seen and he told me he fell asleep TWICE watching this latest one.

[@kadegetslaid634]

@@generalmortars7557 that's his problem he fell asleep

[@auerbacher69]

@@generalmortars7557 you're right they should have consulted your brother personally and their movie sucks since he doesn't like it and they should be ashamed for making it

[@konstant_ly]

"You can't have impactful heroism without the dark" reminded me of "stars cannot shine without darkness"

[@HelloKolla]

I have been listening to The Batman's Bruce Wayne Theme on repeat for days now, the way it makes you feel the weight on Bruce's shoulders is tear-jerking.

[@creek9311]

him comforting ace reminded me of this quote "Can you imagine your Batman comforting a scared child? If yes, congratulations that’s a genuine Batman. If no, you haven’t written Batman, you’ve written Punisher with a funny hat."

[@alexman378]

Superman is not a worse hero, he’s a contrasting complementary hero, and we need heroes like that too.

[@jwroot]

You're right. Except we'll no longer see Henry Cavill himself where the cape he embodied ever again. Son of a Gunn!

[@alexman378]

@@jwroot I don’t get it, really. Cavill was so perfectly cast, that, to give a perfect performance he’d just have to play himself. His look, his personality, his nature, aura, mannerisms, it’s Superman himself. Even the note he posted about how he’s leaving the role sounded like something Superman would write. And they threw that away for no reason.

[@jwroot]

@@alexman378 I couldn't agree more, Alex!

[@whiski8357]

The thing with superman is that he was Clark Kent before he was Superman, I feel like both have something to teach us, that haven't been fully explored, especially superman.

[@blendedtime8162]

always quality videos, makes my day every time I see one released

[@TheCloserLook]

More on the way!

[@MALITH666]

Disagree with JP's example though. Bilbo was not a peaceful Hobbit. He was a clever Thief. And Gandalf needed a thief.

[@smithydavis1033]

Than you failed to see his point

[@manpreetlakhanpal9720]

I love how as the ideas about Batman are evolving the lines are getting more blurred but still you will always find him at the right side of the line. Batman has seen the humanity at its worst, see the worse they sre capable of, and yet is still good. I think the ideologies of both Batman and Daredevil are similar. A belief in that one glimmer of hope and redemption inside a human. They probably see a murderous lunatic and imagine him few years later working an okayish job while completing his schooling, quitting drugs and bad company and may be finding a humdard to share his life with. Trying to do better than he was before with hope in his eyes. And that is why they dont kill. That is why they intrigue me.

[@gigel008]

A quote from Batman the animated series from the first Two-Face episode: "Everybody has a dark side. The brighter the picture, the darker the negative." In context it was about Harvey Dent, but the reverse of that is the anwser of the question in the title.

[@kaleanteus]

Superman teaches us how to be good *with Power*. The thing that makes Superman the greatest superhero is not that he has the best power set. It’s that he is truly good and incorruptable by his essentially infinite power. Batman has often struggled with this exact problem. It’s why he and Superman are so interesting. Batman is good in the dark. Superman is good in the light. Both are needed and valuable.

[@Charlie-lu4wi]

I think he’s a character that’s so relatable in some weird sense. We as humans are both evil and good, we tend to have this darkness inside of us. Batman emphasizes that and uses that darkness, he accepts and struggles with it in a way that no other character does. Superman is always doing the good thing, Spider-man is the most self-less hero, while Batman is always fighting with this darkness inside of him. In the Dark Knight this is shown perfectly, Joker’s one bad day perspective against Batman’s struggle is such an interesting conflict, and it’s relatable too. As humans whenever we go through a bad period, we always have that choice, when we grow impatient and just throw out our moral code, or to keep being a good person in spite of the unfairness of life.

[@michaelenqvist3120]

This talk about "shadows" as repressed aspects of yourself, and the need to assimilate them, kind of reminds me of the Persona series. It's facinating to see its (probably) real world insperation Carl jung.

[@lckaboom6810]

Jung’s ideas are actually the direct inspiration for Persona. The games’ concepts of Personas, shadows, and (in P5’s case) masks are all taken directly from Jung himself. There’s even a little bonus section in P4G that teaches about it!

[@DeadDancers]

Disagree completely about 10:50 - Batman never feeling fear of the consequences because he is never/can’t be caught. He’s not magically protected from being caught. Unless he suffers from some sort of narcissistic disorder, he *will* fear that one day a mistake means his identity is revealed and consequences will come. Hence his working with the police chief to try and head off any trouble. Negotiating to make ‘the law’ look the other way.

[@rebornrosess]

this was a fantastic essay! i wasn't expecting to reconsider so many of my pre-conceived ideas about morality even outside of the context of batman as a character. i've always found myself terrified of being a bad person, but this gave me lots to think about in terms of how to even define the term and its possible antonym. thank you for sharing!

[@TheCloserLook]

No problem, I'm really glad you got something out of it!

[@concept5631]

Nice pfp

[@whatdadogdoin_]

i feel like this is the only batman movie adaptation where his parents death are the core of why he is becoming batman. it's very consistent, it wasn't just a plot device. i watched the behind the scene. I'm still fascinated by this movie

[@CHMgamemedic777]

Here recently i've been kinda in love with the concept of a light hearted campy Batman, like Adam West. But it has to be done very well, it could very well be like Kickass, or Green Hornet, how lighthearted can mix up with real violence

[@vortexsniper4205]

As someone who is a life long fan of both, your batman was spot on to an insane degree a million props for that! But, your view of superman is really odd to me, because throughout the video you describe superman and then say he could never teach it like batman. I agree with you on your points, all except for superman, batman and superman are the two most similar heroes in dc, that’s why they always end up life long best friends, they both hold the same values and have many of the same experiences, the main difference is how they dealt with it on the outside, the symbols they chose to portray themselves

[@Abderian]

There are a lot of sweeping, broad statements in this video that I'm kind of disappointed are declared in such a way as if they were just obviously true with no caveats. Although dark Batman stories are popular now, Batman endured for decades as a light-hearted, often campy franchise. So it's entirely possible to love a not-dark Batman, and tastes change overtime. Batman doesn't feel the fear of consequences for acting outside the law? Then why does he have a secret identity and secret Bat Cave? Perhaps he feels that fear but also feels a stronger sense of responsibility that urges him to act and that's a driving force of his character. Rather than elevate himself above fear being the mother of morality, Batman adopted a fearsome persona in order to frighten the criminal elements of Gotham, using that very principle of fear --> morality to further his aims as a vigilante. It further feels like this is a very Modernist take (not that that's necessarily wrong), in that grand universal ideas of good and evil are taken for granted as true, vis-a-vis acting outside the law is assumed "evil." I do not disagree that Batman is a fascinating character. I just have different readings on the character and didn't find this video rhetorically convincing, clearly passionate though you are in your delivery.

[@julialevelle6384]

Agreed with your points.

[@lakshaygupta9061]

Thought this too

[@theirongiants]

Batman was viewed as a light-hearted and campy character because that was the definition of a Superhero back than. The whole Superhero genre has progressed past that. That was because Superheroes were only made for kids back then.

[@markusbuhler8181]

Glad to see someone else acknowledging Hacksaw Ridge as the monumentally inspiring film that it is. My favourite of all time

[@Chadius_Thundercock]

Hacksaw Ridge is the only movie to make my dad cry, absolute S tier movie

[@Ra3_ar1adnE]

I'm always fascinated by the darker aspects of the human mind, society always deems being "pure and good" makes us more acceptable and draws others in but it feels too empty and imperfect. Sure, you can create characters like that but deep down a large majority won't have that connection to that character without their flaws. Those flaws and sense of evil in us makes them interesting especially when their ideals are morally good. Which is why the anti hero and villains are the most intriguing to me.

[@xxsilentreatmentxx]

And there's still so much more. Batman also inspires with his conquest over early tragedy, his steadfast commitment across his teens and 20's to push himself to train his mind and body and to never give up. Forget just the last 100 years, I'd say Batman is the single greatest fictional character ever.

[@dooberoni7495]

As someone who was, in all honesty, put off by the first trailer I saw for The Batman, I'm really glad that this movie understands what darkness actually means (at least what it means to me) instead of making a pointlessly edgy version of batman for the sake of it. I like how The Batman understands that the ideas of good and evil are skin deep, and everything is so much more nuanced than that, darkness is about the idea that good people do bad things and bad people do good things. Batman is the perfect character for telling a story like that. Insanely realistic and brutal violence in a superhero movie still feels a bit off to me, because, regardless of how realistic a director wants a film to be, it means nothing without substance in the form of characters we understand in some way or another, also like, sure Batman's a dark character, but he's still a character that kids look up to as a role model, so superficial darkness is just kind of wrong to me lol. Also before anyone tells me: yes, I know that my sentence structure and grammar was terrible there but I'm tired so whatever 😂

[@DA11AZ]

How in the world was you put off by the first trailer 💀

[@Exel3nce]

and yet the trailer made it seem so much better than the movie at the end

[@dooberoni7495]

@@DA11AZ I was just a bit burnt out by the idea of another super dark batman movie, I thought it was gonna be a bit too superficial lmao

[@Toma-621]

The reason I believe we love seeing a darker Batman as opposed to say a darker Superman is that, in every Batman medium, a character defining trait is how he will not let "Batman" break into the mind of "Bruce Wayne." If you think of them not as juxtapositions of the same person but rather two different entities fighting over one host, you begin to see how hard Bruce is fighting to keep Batman from taking over, for he knows if he does he is no greater than those against whom he fights.

[@trekgreenwood6743]

This is by far the greatest video essay and character analysis I’ve ever seen on KZbin. 👏

[@The__Mutt]

This video truly makes me feel understood and I can’t put into words how much I appreciate your words

[@theguy1768]

Watching your videos are so interesting to watch. I love all the analysis’ you do on a specific point in movies and help making lessons for film-making. Hope you make more in the future.

[@TheCloserLook]

Glad you like them! More on the way!

[@robrules]

I think this is one of the greatest videos I've ever seen on youtube, thank you so much

[@liamphibia]

Henry, you have once again made an outstanding analysis. Can't wait for what we'll observe & learn in the sequel!🦇

[@TheCloserLook]

Thanks, Liam!

[@liamphibia]

@@TheCloserLook Your very welcome. *Bowing*

[@teddylyon1189]

It’s like that quote at the end of Mask of the Phamtasm: “Vengeance blackens the soul, Bruce. I’ve always feared that you would become that which you fought against; you walk the edge of that abyss every night, but you haven’t fallen in and I thank heaven for that” - Alfred. If the video ended with that clip, it would have been great. I also feel as if concept applies to the Netflix’s daredevil

[@paulieluppino1856]

11:17 ...."Batman is the best role model that exist in the superheroe genre"..... 100% agree.....

[@Bjswac]

Spectacular video. Very few movie youtubers can analyze Batman like this. Cheers.

[@rufatrassulov]

Thank you for your great essays! Cheers from a high-school student in Singapore.

[@thunder8987]

I actually love the way batman is portrayed in the movie. I love superman if written correctly. He's kinda like how spiderman is a good guy who has bad things happen to him. I think the pain of nobility is really great. The best superman is the one who holds back. That's why I love superman vs the elite. I shows how easy it would be if superman just wanted to be a bad guy. Overall to make a good superman make a superman who tries to be a good guy but struggles to do so. The main problem for writers is superman is so powerful. I would fix it by having superman struggle to control his power where he can increase is durability and strength but it's hard to do so. Meaning he doesn't want to over increase his strength but not weak enough to not do any damage. I think also you could show superman getting angry or losing just a bit of control. There are moments with superman with this.

[@blandwagon374]

“Why does superman being dark not work but Batman does” Superman isn’t meant to be dark he never was but Batman was always meant to be THE DARK KIGHT

[@Jittr03]

I love your videos! You’re so articulate and precise in the way that you describe things, and for someone who loves film and acting, such as myself, I find you very intriguing to listen to👍

[@TheCloserLook]

Thank you! That's high praise.

[@whisperingdorito1456]

I say this at the risk of sounding like a narcisist but I've actually realiced that 'morality is largely based on fear' part as a kid and ever since then I've always made an active effort to do the 'right' thing. I think it has made me a better person in the end and I'd reconend it to others aswell. I usually keep the mantra 'don't cause suffering', 'suffering' being any senseless negative emotion or physical response. It's intentionally vague and even though it sounds very basic, it's a great guideline to spin your morality around. I'm a teen, now, so that's something I need to focus on a lot right now and it's helped me realice many times when I'm in the wrong.

[@UnskippableCinematic5875]

Which means Daredevil is not the "man without fear", he's actually fueled by it.

[@harsyakiarraathallah2222]

A Hero must Understand the Balance between Good and Evil to do Heroism, they must Control the Shadow Side of them, we must know Fear as not only a Weakness but a Compass of Morality and Weapon, the Greatest Role Models is the most Relatable Person, and we must Face Darkness because that what will give use the Courage to face the World, and that's why we Love a Darker Batman. That's what i Learn from this Video.

[@gavindufrenne4456]

I absolutely love every bit of content you push out, keep it up

[@Elfos64]

I feel Superman's character works best when it's shown how his paragon can be a weakness. Not in the sense of being unequip to deal with true evil like you're saying, but in the sense that his impatience for evil can be used against him. He's well aware of how badly people like Lex Luthor need to be dealt with, he knows what happens when they aren't. He (correctly) assumes Lex Luthor is always up to something, and Lex knows this. Lex can do something actually good and know that Superman would doubt it and try to stop it under the paranoid (albeit correct) impression he had an ulterior motive. He wanted to make Superman's 100% justified mistrust of him look unjustified, prompt the other heroes to think Superman is in the wrong for trying to stop what by all rights is exactly what Lex Luthor said it was. And then there's what happened with Return of Superman, where Apokalips was noting the lack of Superman and was asking for volunteers to be given superpowers to keep the peace in his absence. Superman inspired many, many resented how weak they felt compared to him, and relished the opportunity to become stronger. The Superpowers turned out to be a trap, it brainwashed them, the way Superman had inspired them backfired. However, there were a notable number of people who felt those superpowered volunteers were an egregious substitute, "I know Superman, these things AREN'T Superman". Yes "things", as in they didn't recognize the volunteers as human anymore (and they weren't). And even when Superman saved the day, those volunteers weren't saved. Everyone whom he inspired to want to get stronger themselves paid the price permanently.

[@jdcrosier2682]

That can certainly work, but I think it needs a foil within the story, which is why they saved that plot for the justice league cartoon as a posed to the Superman one.

[@luqmanhafiz455]

This is honestly the best video essay you had made so far, it made me think deeply, and seeing the story of batman to be more relatable than it should have been. Honestly can't agree more with you takes in this video. But on a side note, do you ever have a plan to make a video essay on spiderman? Because after seeing this video, it even puzzles me alot more about this dilemma/realisation that I have that spiderman and batman are both similars in so many ways, on holding back, having huge loneliness in their lives, and went through some brutal reality to remain as who they're, but yet they're somehow the polar opposite of one another, I can't explain but somehow this dilemma I have is something I realised when I think about the character, and when I look up the moves and the comics. Just wondering!

[@Ryry_In_Time]

I swear each time I watch this channel I question not just myself but how deep I've dived into a character before. Definitely one of my favourite content creators.

[@andyschipper4056]

I think most of your points are good except for your critiques of Superman. The reason people, or at least I, didn't like Superman in Man of Steel much is not because the world around him was dark but because Superman was also dark and cynical and therefore not really Superman. I do think there might be something to the idea that a perfectly virtuous Superman doesn't fit in a perfectly dark world, but it might have more to do with clashing tones than Superman's character. In essence, I think writing Superman involves writing a virtuous character in a world with challenges that isn't totally bleak. Make the world too bleak and the tone is off, make Superman too cynical and he's not Superman.

[@controlman7490]

Yea, but just like Batman in Reeves movie; Supes was inexperienced. He was forced to go from being a farm boy to being the only person who could defeat a planetary threat. Superman maybe an alien, but he was raised a human being, so you have to have some sympathy for his character and put yourself in his shoes. Any human being would be scared, confused, and wouldn't know how to stop a literal God-like alien from destroying the planet. I mean Supes only had his powers for like a week or 2, so obviously he hasn't come into that role as Earth's boy scout protector yet. He was literally just a dude from Kansas who was more or less forced to combat a threat that he didn't even know existed until a few weeks prior. People judge MOS way too harshly even though the way Superman acted in that movie made complete sense. He isn't the Superman who has learned tons of alien martial arts, traveled the universe in 60 seconds, battled countless Gods and alien warlords, and has been a member of the Justice League for over 50 years. If MOS 2 ever happened we would've see Supes gradually become the Superman we all know, which is someone who is much stronger, faster, more self aware of property damage and civilian causalities. Still I find it weird that people say he didn't do Superman like things when a good portion of the movie showed him saving people even when he was a kid, so that argument is stupid asf.

[@andyschipper4056]

@@controlman7490 Fair points. I didn't say that I don't like Man of Steel as a movie, because although it's not my favorite I do, I just don't like Superman as much in it. This problem is a lot more prevalent in BvS, but even in Man of Steel Zack Snyder leaned a little too heavily into Superman being god-like and not being sure whether he should even protect humans (see young Clark's conversation with Pa Kent for the prime example), plus the whole killing General Zod thing which I think most versions of Superman wouldn't even think of. For me that's a little too different from the traditional Superman to work character-wise, but again I think MoS has its merits as a movie outside of the general Superman mythos. I would've loved to see Zack Snyder's Superman grow into the more traditional one over time. I'm not sure that actually would have happened seeing as the Snyder Cut suggests that the future for Zack Snyder's Superman was something akin to the Injustice storyline, but it would be great to see that traditional Superman regardless. It kind of reminds me of the situation with Tom Holland's Spider-Man. I and many others criticized the first two movies in his trilogy for not feeling very Spider-Man-like, but I loved No Way Home for returning Spider-Man to his traditional status quo. At the end of the day, Zack Snyder's Superman was just a little too dark for me, though Iiked some of the movies he was in. If you disagree that's fine; I'm not telling you what you can or can't like, but hopefully you see my perspective on this.

[@controlman7490]

@@andyschipper4056 Yea, I get what you mean. Personally, though I don't believe a goofy, boy scout-like like Superman would translate well to a live action film. That shit works in the comics because of the setting within those fictional worlds, which are supposed to be looney, overly friendly, and non-realistic. I mean obviously a human looking alien with God-like powers randomly crash landing on Earth is unrealistic as well, but Supes being a genuine human being at heart who is afraid, lost, and doesn't have a full grasp on his biology makes sense. I don't think Superman was too God-like in this movie. He saved people when he could and see that's what I'm talking about. Zod was just as strong as him, so he physically couldn't save everyone. MOS portrayed as close to a realistic battel between 2 God-like beings as we're ever gonna get. Kryptonians throwing each other through buildings is going to kill people and Superman can't save everyone. He was focused on defeating Zod, which would've murdered the entire human species, so Superman tbh doesn't have the time to be worrying about every single casualties, which is just how life works. I think it also made more sense for Superman to kill Zod. The fact Superman in the comics doesn't neutralize evil alien warlords and generals that routinely wipe out planets is stupid and Snyder realizes that. Supes is still a superhero right? and superhero's are supposed to save lives as quickly as possible. Yes, Superman has a no killing rule, but that is allowed to be broken when the threat is big enough. Zod was about to vaporize an entire family and flying him to another part of the city wouldn't have stopped him. Supes had to kill him or Zod at some point would've eventually killed him and exterminated all humans.

[@andyschipper4056]

@@controlman7490 I'm not exactly asking for a goofy or cheesy Superman, just one with a genuine heart who goes out of his way to save everyday civilians. Zack Snyder's Superman has some elements of that for sure, but he embodied a god forced to be a superhero more than a kind, neighborly guy who just happens to have superpowers and uses them for good, imo. I think logistically your points about Zod and his destruction are true, but it kind of gets back to my earlier point that the world around Superman can't be too bleak either. I think it would have been better if the screenwriter had found a way to make Zod a threat but still make it possible for Superman to mitigate some of the collateral damage. I guess what I'm looking for in a Superman movie is more like Superman '76 with modern effects. The world and Superman wasn't too bleak or too corny (okay, it is kind of corny now due to its age), they were a perfect match. I appreciate that you might have different tastes, because like I said MoS does have a lot of positives even outside of the updated effects.

[@controlman7490]

@@andyschipper4056 Supes did go out of his way to save civilians though. When he saved that fat ass bully from drowning in the lake, shit when he saved that entire school bus full of kids from drowning, when he saved that soldier from plummeting to his death, all these instances where moments where Supes could've easily not done shit, but he did. You're talking as if this Superman was a terrible person when he was a really good guy. Also, it would've made no sense for Superman to be able to mitigate all the collateral damage. I mean if you know anything about Kryptonian powers that shit is powerful enough to literally shatter planets, so it would be highly disrespectful to the source material to not show how deadly those alien abilities are. You have to remember that Supes was literally just as scared as all those civilians. He didn't want to fight Zod, but he had to or else he would die, so that's why he was so extensively focused solely on their battle and how to survive that he completely forgot about the people around him at certain points. Again, he wasn't the Superman we all know yet, which is something he would've eventually came into in later films that never happened.

[@DistortedShelf0]

Superman is a great role model because he is a prime example of justice and virtue. Batman is a better role model, because he is a prime example of justice and virtue, yet must constantly battle internal demons and physical limitations. "The bravest sight in the world is to see a great man struggling against adversity." - Seneca.

[@ninja1man4u]

I hope this video will lead you down the path of watching batman mask of the phantasm. Best batman movie

[@TheCloserLook]

I have, it's great!

[@scotttrail522]

"If you want to go toe-to-toe with evil, you must first understand how evil works. . . And the only way to do THAT, is to be evil yourself. And that's where Batman comes in." The way you lowered your voice, on that last part. . . is pretty chilling.

[@oladipupoolowabi9316]

4:22 literally was there and my man really lowered the voice

[@scotttrail522]

@@oladipupoolowabi9316 That's like him making a video on Berserk, titled "Why We Love A Struggler" and saying: "If you want to go toe-to-toe with monsters, you must first understand how monsters work, and the only way to do THAT. . . is to be a monster yourself. And that's where Guts comes in." See? It would add the same chills feeling, because you will have read up on Guts' journey.

[@ShaOrna]

This is fascinating BUT I think this is the story that everyone ignores with Superman. He has little to nothing to fear and yet he CHOOSES to be good, he could force people to be better but he never does. His powers don't make him a hero, it's how he uses them that makes him a hero. I realize now it would have been a real test of Batman if the Joker had connected a detonator to his heart and then said if I'm alive at midnight those two boats will explode. Does Batman protect his own morals or does he become the sin eater?

[@gabrielesegapeli4053]

"Hi, i'm Arkham Origins"

[@brentoncaldwell7986]

Thank you! I've been struggling for awhile, trying to figure out why I keep going back and forth with Batman. This video perfectly articulates why I keep going back to his stories. There can be no light without the darkness.

[@luckyhail8019]

There’s a reason the Joker saw Superman as “easy mode” in Injustice

[@B8V88]

You need to watch Barry on HBO. It deals with the fear=morality on a huge level. It is masterfully written, and a binge is extremely quick.

[@thefilmwatcher1216]

Batman is a character who is haunted by his demons(duh), and I really like when the villains he fights reflects those demons. As for your early question about Superman, Superman as a character symbolizes hope, so when some writer who doesn't understand anything about the character or the world he populates(Hi, Zack Snyder, how are you?) and makes him dark amd brooding, it strips away certain core aspects of Superman. Batman is an unbelievably compelling character who I could honestly read stories about day after day and never get tired. I'm not skilled enough to go in depth on thr topic of Batman's psyche and the way it works, but thr ideas he lives by and utilizes in his war against criminals, as well as the fact that he constantly treads the line between virtuosity and savagery, is what, in my opinion, makes him the most interesting superhero ever and one that will never get old, if he's done right(Hi, Zack Snyder, how are you?). Also, he has the best rogues gallery in all of comics, and the majority of them contrast him and his values in an unbelievable way, and most of them in a different way than the others.

[@DANIEL-ls5ku]

I grew up in an environment where I always fear for my life just by walking out of the house, my own father were not much of a help I always dream of making a stab proof vest or something where I can wear and be invincible… that was 35 years ago. Batman will always be with me forever.

[@kimackerman2183]

I absolutely love Batman but now loved him even more when watching The Batman when it came out. I just finished watching the movie two times in a row and love how dark, mature and so greedy it is. The movie not fearing on taking Bruce on a darker and much different path than previous movies alongside making the few villains more interesting and questioning who the true evil in Gotham is.

[@bromomentob3007]

The right thing to do is often the hardest and the courage to do right by yourself and others in times of hell, is where human greatness is found

[@absupinhere]

You would love Ruroni Kenshin. Watch the live action movies. He's the only character that fits the ethical role you've described better than Batman.

[@sleepybandit23]

which is ironic considering the author is a convicted pedophile

[@jacobhebert1026]

This script you wrote was phenomenal for the vid. So in depth into the philosophy and how it relates to batman. And your stroytelling and inflection of ur voice is expertly done. Whole vid kept me entranced.

[@melaniey.5596]

I think you are fundamentally failing to understand Superman here 11:33. What makes Superman a hero (and the best role model too, i.e. paragon) is by the same reason you are attributing to Batman. Superman in a way too has the ultimate freedom from consequences, he can use his powers to do whathever, conquer Earth or f**k off to space Hawaii as Earth is not his problem, his homeworld. But instead he uses them to do the right thing, to be selfless, and to always try to see the best in peoplre, even to a fault. An scene in Reborth Batman Vol. 3 #36 very nicely exemplifies this, and how they are not that different that you are giving them credit for.

[@TheLuconic]

Honestly, I been trying to write a double sided type character for years now, and with no sucess. But I never gave up. In fact, I been using all the secrets and tips to finally write my book, outline right now, and finally get something done! I hope that people will love my character and become one of the greats. This video is helping me fine tune my character and I thank you for that.

[@TheCloserLook]

No problem. It's always nice to here the video helped someone out. Good luck with the story!

[@aristosachaion_]

Personally, I believe this approach can work for Superman, too, maybe even better than it does for Batman. He might be the paragon of all that is good, but he isn't without a shadow; he can't and hasn't saved everybody, including his villains. Some of them are in the same vein as the Joker in that they're truly evil and deserve no redemption, and often, at least in my eyes, the only choice is to kill them, yet he doesn't. I firmly believe he has all the same dark urges as Batman, maybe even more so due to his status as a "god", but he never succumbs to that. Stories like Injustice and Kingdom Come are prime examples of what could happen if he ever gave in to those urges and allowed himself to truly let loose. Even in Justice League Animated/Unlimited, his "world of cardboard" speech has its own ominous side to it in that he knows perfectly well what he's capable of if he ever decided to let his morals go. The reason why he's infinitely the brighter part of the World's Finest, and this is also the one aspect of his that Snyder utterly failed to showcase, is because unlike Batman, in spite of all the turmoil he has faced, in spite of all the lives he's failed to save because of the limitations he puts upon himself, and in spite of seeing how terrible humanity can be to itself, he still manages to be outwardly hopeful and optimistic in an almost naive way.

[@kartikadewi3270]

Zack snyder just watchmenizes superman which wins me personally.

[@randomnerd3402]

@@kartikadewi3270 Without understanding what made Watchmen so great.

[@kartikadewi3270]

@@randomnerd3402 and in your opinion, what made watchmen still amazingly great ? This is subjective by the way.

[@randomnerd3402]

@@kartikadewi3270 The portrayal of heavily flawed people who all think they're in the right when really none of them are. An honest and realistic version of what superheroes would actually be like. Pretty much a realistic yet artistic take on the superhero genre, written by a man who loves it. Zack pretty much heard Watchmen had nudity and epic intercourse and decided to read it. He admits this himself in an interview. Also Superman doesn't need to be "Watchmenized" because you already have Watchmen's version of Superman, Mr. Manhattan. If you want a nuanced take on Superman, read "Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?" By Alan Moore.

[@tylersomerville313]

This is easily one of my favorite videos yet on the channel. Awesome work on this one!

[@TheCloserLook]

Wow, thanks Tyler!

[@bartz2012]

as someone who has loved this character for longer than i can remember, i feel you pretty much hit the nail on the head with batman. However i cant help but feel you maybe wrong about superman, not that he cant be in a dark film but more so that he is perfect. you have to remember that this is a character with literally world destroying powers and if he woke up one day and felt like humanity no longer deserved to live he could end it all in a blink of an eye. I think the movies and even most TV shows dont do his character any favours as they simply give you jesus in a red cape but when you think about it superman might actually be more of a better hero than batman. Batman mainly deals with criminals and villians in gotham where as superman even though he stays mainly in matropolis he also deals with other global threats and because of this is more aware of the darkness that humanity harbours, hell he can hear someone scream while being mugged thousands of miles away so just imagine what other horrors he can hear, and he even has to deal with xenophobia at times yet despite all this darkness put upon him, he does his best remain in the light and protect people. When all it would take is for him to have one bad day and wipe everyone out. of course realisticly batman is an easier hero to emulate as he's human and we can all on some level see ourselves in his situation and its harder to emulate an alian with god like powers. I think even as much as i love batman and he'll always be my favourite hero, superman isn't given enough credit and despite portraying this bright and shining symbol of hope he might even have even more darkness inside him. i'm not saying that justifies having a film thats a bit gritty like man of steel, but i do think that having a superman movie thats 100% bright and optimistic is also wrong and inaccurate and that darkness does belong in a superman movie too depending on the story you're trying to tell. hopefully that all made sense and didnt come across as ramblings of a madman lol