Sullivan and Douthat debate Bad Religion

[@windowsoflife]

The comments on Jesus' upgrade of the Law of Moses regarding lust completely misinterpret what Jesus is saying. At 4:47f. Sullivan misquotes Jesus as saying, "you can't even look at a beautiful woman and feel attracted to her without having committed adultery." This is NOT what Jesus said nor what he meant. Jesus said if anyone looks at a woman lustfully, with lustful intent, he's already committed adultery with her in his heart. This is coming after his comments about fulfilling the Law ... Jesus is saying that his redemption project is touching far more than mere outward conduct. He's transforming the heart out of which all manner of evil outward conduct rears its ugly head. This is not a prohibition of admiration, nor discouraging even acknowledging one's physical beauty ... which is God's gift to be admired. To look at a woman lustfully is far different and every man knows what this means. No one has to define when one crosses the line from seeing another as a subject to seeing another as an object. With the exception of a sex addict, one is not rendered powerless and left with the only option of looking upon another person of the opposite sex lustfully. Sullivan says that what Jesus is suggesting is impossible. Jesus never commands anything impossible. With God, all things are possible. This passage has been misused throughout history and blurs the true meaning of Christ's redemption of the body. I would suggest a bit of John Paul II's Theology of the Body material to get an excellent understanding on what Jesus is saying about sex and the physical body.

[@einarabelc5]

In order to repent one must first recognize that one has sinned. The "inner change of heart" begins with self awareness. That's how free will really works.

[@einarabelc5]

One interesting thing about Sexuality and Jesus other than Mary getting impregnated without a sexual act is the total skipping of ANY reference to Him going through puberty and how he reacted to it. On the other hand, we have the story about his 40 days of meditation followed by temptation by Satan. But not a single drop of his experience going through puberty and everything, not just sexuality that entails.

[@mojo476]

"hell might be an eternity being the person you are right now" -Douthat Brilliant

[@SaintNektarios]

I learned about Ross Douthat through his book To Change the Church. I looked at the book out of curiosity and could not put it down. I watched some of Douthat's talks, conversations and debates and have become a big fan.

[@chase82]

I really enjoyed this discussion. Thank you for posting it.

[@fitzhamilton]

I wrote my prior comment about fifteen minutes into the discussion. Having listened to the rest, I just want to add that I admire these two guys immensely. Douthat is genius, and Andrew - for all that I sometimes disagree with him - is stellar too. Thanks for posting this.

[@Abr022575]

ross uses the phrases "sort of" and "you know" a combined 18,124 times

[@muel0341]

The reason why we don't see more discussions like this is because many people in power don't want us to know that they are possible. Conversations like this happen all the time, and they really are the prototype of how dialogue should work. I am angry because they aren't put into our movies, our news, or TV programs. They are hidden from us by those whose existence depends upon the continuance of vitriol.

[@jcwareham1]

I only wish this were the NORMAL kind of conversation believers were having in America today. So thoughtful, so mutually respectful, so informed and personally confessional without rhetorical aggression.

[@Unclenate1000]

It's idiotic of him or anyone to equate the sex abuse scandal to the Church's stance on sexuality. it's an ABUSE SCANDAL, meaning the CHURCH doesn't teach it to be okay when in fact it condemns it, so don't alienate yourself from the CHURCH for the wrong doings of particular priests and bishops, thats just basic logic.

[@fitzhamilton]

Douthat says some valuable things here, but he doesn't address the eschatological aspect of sexuality which undergirds the strict moral or legal expression of Catholic spiritual discipline. That's the key thing here, and it should be stressed above all: We are made male and female in the image and likeness of God, and the procreative powers we possess are derived from God's creative energies. Marriage - marital sex - is therefore graced. Paul says in Ephesians 5 that man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh, this being a profound mystery [in Greek the word is "sacramentum"] referring to Christ and the Church. This means that marriage - sex, procreation - is a sacramental mystery, and in it we become like Christ in his relationship with the Church, and that in marriage we therefore somehow participate intimately in - are an icon of - the inner life of the Trinity, the inner life of the one God. This is merely the logic of Genesis - "God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them," and "this is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh.." fully expressed. This is why sex is sacred. The fact that the implications of this - the moral and legal expression - is difficult, or even in the carnal way of things impossible is irrelevant to the point, which is the Cross. And the logic of the Cross is love, sacrificial union with God through grace. My own very limited experience (being pretty sinful still, with intermittent patches of fidelity and bliss) has proven to me me that the "trade off" is a no brainer. This is all about grace, and if you seek it you'll get want you want. "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Don't hesitate to ask for it, and then emphatically throw down, is all I'm saying..

[@2Uahoj]

Agree with everything you say here, but it might be a tad too sophisticated for the average Christian today. A simpler response is that sex is all important primarily because it is God's gift to man to literally participate in His power to create new life.

[@FlowLai]

I agree and I don't think Sullivan has even heard of JP2's theology of the body. The fact is human sexuality is VERY important; secularites see this too ofc, and Christians/Catholics do have a theology that makes sense of how sexuality is important to our relationship with God.

[@CoryTheRaven]

The problem is not that Protestants decided to assume holy authority for themselves. The problem is that Protestants realized that the Pope's holy authority was only ever self-declared. The question of who has more reliability is moot.

[@Local_International]

I agree. On the other side of the coin, a substantial amount of non believers have a, "I know I'm right and you are 100% wrong and you're an idiot for even believing." mind set and it makes it hard for believers to even want to openly talk about their religion. I'm always up for a discussion about my beliefs, but I only do it to learn about other peoples thoughts on life. I never say that someone is not right about what they believe, because nobody likes to hear that and its pointless.

[@masonhymas]

These are believers I can respect. I can imagine having perfectly cordial and enjoyable conversations with them at a neighborhood BBQ for example. I wish I could say the same about the mormon culture I've recently left. There are good ones here and there, but they are hard to find.

[@stanyukica382]

The traditional parish where I attend has doubled in one year And a year with Cov 19 and scandals.. We went from 350 a Sunday To nearly 700 Attending every Sunday

[@moniquegagnon3817]

Catholic morals and values have the best family planning; easy don't have sex before marriage and if you don't get married don't have sex.

[@TheSpiritOfTheTimes]

+Monique Gagnon No, it's not. It's fucking insane medieval nonsense with destructive consequences.

[@bluewren2]

Rubbish is what you are saying.

[@AntiFascist2011]

Sullivan says that Catholicism has collapsed in Ireland, yet the latest census in 2011 shows that 89% of Irish nationals are Catholic. With non-Irish immigrants the number is 84%. Sure, people aren't going to church as much and divorce is on the increase but I would hardly call only being 84% of a population a collapse. Anyway, great discussion. A shock to me find out that a liberal gay man like A Sullivan is in many ways more deeply Catholic than I am.

[@Maryinthewindow]

He had me at ribaldry.

[@redirishmanxlt]

Great discussion! @1:12:25 Ross says that educated people have trouble believing in miracles, but how many other miracle claims, outside the Christian text, does he believe in? Does being an educated person bias one against all miracle claims, or only Christian ones?

[@stanyukica382]

In case anybody has missed it The traditional Latin mass is growing because young people are flocking back to the old mass Because they do not want to embrace the spirit of the age

[@marymolloy562]

I lived through most of the fifties and can testify that it was a very strange time. Peace had finally come and everybody and his brother and sister were getting married. People who would have married but for the Depression people who would have married but for the war and many random teenagers! Lots of weird stuff was happening then but women left their baby carriages outside stores when they shopped. Everybody pretended to be normal even though many wern't but there was relative peace and prosperity. People can only handle so much of things being calm so chaos reasserted itself in the 60's.

[@jackbarbara]

Being a communication artist I can't help but see the hopefully accidental product placements. One, a Starbucks coffee - horrible inferior coffee sold to low-esteem consumerists. The second, a product called "zero". My lord, what went wrong here?

[@PhoenixLament87]

Amen, brother!

[@AntiFascist2011]

Doesn't sell high viewing ratings does it? Whereas Jerry Springer style debates do...

[@chubbytewd4787]

As for Muggeridge's "give give give" quote, it all depends on if someone wants to receive what the other person has to give, or if they feel forced at all. Which is why God is so interested in us being truly given our choice. Even if people seem to be "getting away with" quite alot of horrific evil, with nary a peep from the Almighty, just see it as Him giving many people a chance to repent. The same wet blankets who have a problem with Him not doing enough for starving & abused children are the ones who get really uptight at the idea of Jesus returning in Power to deal with just those issues...FOR GOOD! (:D Won't it be Great? :) Hallelujah! Come Lord Jesus!

[@Alberturkey54]

Its not all doom and gloom, you should study the philosophy of morality, and the evolutionary and historical development of moral systems. You'll find that humans have grown quite apt at it (all humans not just religious ones).

[@kenvee9446]

Sullivan seems to at least be using the tall bar of the Church's sexual teaching as a personal excuse. It is something that is perhaps unconsciously implied rather than announced (or perhaps just inferred, I humbly offer as at least a possibility)

[@mglodo]

And a question that the scientist cannot answer.

[@margethacker809]

Isn’t using a contraceptive an abortion

[@Redo12able]

Two bright gentlemen, only Willie Mays was a genius, trying to understand life in all its important manifestations.

[@Labetolol45]

This was a good discussion. Ross Douthat puts the fear of God into his homosexual Starbucks drinking atheist opponent.

[@marymolloy562]

Are you sure?

[@BadboyAnarchy]

Which are you faithful or secular? Whatever tthe case is, your "wanking" thoughts/comment could be better suited in some darker corner of the internet.

[@stanyukica382]

As strange as it sounds Pope Francis has been Very good for Latin mass communities

[@chubbytewd4787]

The Saviour said to Simon, the first of his disciples to be given spiritual discernment that He was The Christ, "Flesh & blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in Heaven." He went on to say He would build His spirit body, the Church, on that spirit revelation & further Faith that would be given. Believers in Jesus dwell in that unity (not a particular building or "franchise") as all humans "live & breathe & have their being in God." We move OUT of generic human endeavors into a safe place our Messiah provided by His own blood. A new spirit is given to those who have chosen to receive it, & thereby it's possible to carry on existing without hurting one another. Those who choose against it, choose against their own souls, & will eventually die...we're also compared to cut-off branches, needing to be grafted back into a living vine, rather than a dead tree. That's what baptism is representing...if you ask Him, God will cut you from that dead "body" of fallen humans & graft you into the body of Christ, that drinks of His Holy Spirit flowing through the True Vine. Since we can't see these processes with our physical eyes, they have to be presented as concepts & analogies, but the results of obedience are real. Christians ARE nicer to one another & all humans, despite hiccups caused by deceptions & attacks from God's spirit enemy, who caused the Fall in the first place. Satan is still around, to test which decisions are sincere & true. False liar believers are no more going to Heaven than stompy purposeful sinners, but Jesus hates the spirit behind all that, not the humans themselves.

[@Alberturkey54]

Your whole outlook is tainted by preconceived, pessimistic religious notions and limitations. Science says not that we are nothing, but rather that we are everything. Imagine the infinite series of events that had to occur to make your existence possible. A famous atheistic adage is "you are the Universe experiencing itself". I will grant you, morality becomes more difficult, for some, without religion, but in society co-operation & empathy equals reproductive success.

[@einarabelc5]

Sex is LIFE Force. Sex is how we endure time, time is part of death. Do I need to say more?

[@marscentral]

I thought that was quite an interesting discussion. It must be as I made it through even with my microscopic attention span and the potential distractions of the internet.

[@bajovato]

I wish Douthat wouldn't do so much prefacing before making his points. Not that it isn't helpful to making sure his point is not misconstrued, but that it can be really exhausting to try & follow. I wish there were more Catholic intellectuals out there like him.

[@mussman717word]

Brilliant retort.

[@Labetolol45]

"I found your comment to be ignorant and biggoted" I am sorry if I cruely offended your sensibilities towards consumers of over-priced coffee.

[@BadboyAnarchy]

Maybe you're not seeking out the right kind of believer.

[@chubbytewd4787]

You CAN look at a beautiful member of the opposite sex without sexual desire, if they are related to you in a place of trust, mother, sister, etc. The New Heart that Christ gives His follower causes that person to see EVERYONE that way...admittedly impossible using only one's human strength, still linked to one's old sinful nature! The new spirit involves imparting His strength to walk in perfect Wisdom like the Father. Will you hand the sceptre to you desire to be changed into someone better? Or will you fear the consequences, out of social cowardice? Will you reject the whole idea from arrogance & pride. Fear & pride are the enemies of Love & Friendship, so we are presented with that choice. Not to make it is to make yourself God, & the default of that decision is embarrassment & shame when your body dies & His hitherto-veiled reality becomes apparent to each of us. It's a killer shame, that makes the lost souls say "mountains fall on me!" It's beyond imagination, that we will be presented with Perfection personified! Only those who have said, "YES, I'd like to be made perfect like you!" will go on to be invited into His Home...

[@MrEvanston]

To much emphasis is placed on sex!!

[@lduych]

RE: "I only wish this were the NORMAL kind of conversation believers were having..." You needn't "wish this were the NORMAL kind of conversation" but rather that "this were the NORMAL kind of [believers]." But were that the case, Christianity would disappear. The conversation here is about sex, wealth, convention and social control, whereas Christianity is about Original Sin and Salvation from this 'collective guilt' by proxy, via human sacrifice. Christianity is quite simply insane.

[@SimplySurprised]

I agree I bought Douthat's book he was discussing on there with maher too. I also didn't like the way he maher treated souza when he was trying to talk about his obama movie when he went on maher's show recently.

[@st.demetriosgocwinnipeg8826]

To follow up, I agree with almost everything he says. I just wish that he would address the possibility of his own church having departed from the true faith that was delivered once and for all to the apostles. Does he ever address that possibility for himself in an honest pursuit of authentic Christianity. Because it seems to me that his word would carry much more authority if he was coming from the most authentic and unadulterated version of Christianity, which I believe to be the Orthodoxy.

[@einarabelc5]

I just got an add for getaclearrear.com with a random millennial Snowflake in it. Very reminding of "demolition man". These geniuses from maleducated America don't even know what a Bidet is and why those aren't used anymore.

[@chubbytewd4787]

There is a You Tube video on here at the moment of a girl named Angelica who had an NDE vision of The End & was shown John Paul II in Hell for being a liar & greedy...

[@dlwatib]

So? You can find all kinds of outrageous things on youtube. There are even youtube videos accusing the pope (whoever he might be) of being the antichrist. That doesn't mean any of them are true.

[@UniversalBrother108]

Time to go pick up a 6-pack of Coca Cola Zero on the way to grab my Starbucks Latte-- NOT! What are these guys thinking?! Otherwise great conversation...

[@Alberturkey54]

yet

[@MrTheRealist]

Sullivan always drives the conversation back to sexual identity...grow up already

[@ArizonaWillful]

Sorry, but the Church's sexual morality is where the public says "no thanks" and leaves.

[@st.demetriosgocwinnipeg8826]

I love Ross Douthat. the only thing that irks me is that he is a Catholic speaking about core Christian doctrines and speaking about Heresy. I wonder if he has ever looked into the eastern Orthodox Church as a more authentic and apostolic witness of Christianity than Roman Catholicism, which one could effectively argue is heretical in itself. I guess my skepticism comes from the fact that it is ironic that a member of a heretical church is pointing the finger at others and saying heretic.

[@bluewrenreilly129]

As the Catholic Church was before the Orthodox Church how come it is heretical?Yes I agree re Ross Douthat I too think I am in love,so thankful he is still a Catholic,*:-).*

[@Alberturkey54]

The role of religion in society is, for me, a far less interesting question than the (scientific) question of whether the claims made by organized religions are true. This is a question that a sociologist/historian/political analyst cannot answer.