Gay Marriage Debate | Doug Wilson & Andrew Sullivan

[@CanonPress]

Check out Doug's book "Same-Sex Mirage" here: canonpress.com/products/same-sex-mirage/

[@susanceolin3227]

U u 777uuu7 u 777 £0

[@hanichay1163]

Polygamy is not a good argument. Why doesn’t he just say sodomy is the only way gays can imitate sexual intercourse and it is wrong? That’s biblical.

[@jessepalmer3735]

It's not a mirage, it's a truth that disprove s the bible

[@jessepalmer3735]

@@hanichay1163 it's not. The Bible is wrong

[@jessepalmer3735]

Not a mirage if it's the law of that land! The constitution>the bible

[@matthewmanucci]

Doug's argument was to draw a parallel between polygamy and homosexuality in that, if there is no ultimate standard by which we can define marriage, how can we accept one and not the other. A lot of people seemed to have a difficulty understanding that. Andrews argument, unfortunately, was his personal life story, which does not serve as an argument.

[@CanonPress]

Nailed it.

[@IndyDefense]

Supporters of polygamy don't tend to be the same ones who support LGBT. Polygamy is more associated with religious groups.

[@mnelisi]

Issue for the LGBT supporters is if the definition of marriage is to be expanded, by what standards is it to be expanded and how far do we go.

[@justinkase1360]

@@IndyDefense Attacks on marriage come from many sides, this doesn't change the fact that one successful attack makes the next that much easier.

[@5va]

@@IndyDefense there is religion, there is atheism, & there’s Jesus Christ The truth!!!

[@thelandofhomelypunks]

Nearly everything that came out of Sullivan's mouth was an appeal to emotion.

[@tylerj7298]

@Jon Because when the subject is personal, you cry.

[@HCF29]

It’s usually the way with these debates it seems, empirical vs. Personal, logic vs. Feelings. To quote (in a non offensive manner) Ben Shapiro “facts don’t care about your feelings”

[@Ironworthstriking]

@@tylerj7298 if it’s that personal, you probably shouldn’t debate the issue.

[@tylerj7298]

@@Ironworthstriking when it’s that personal that’s when you do debate it.

[@tylerj7298]

@@HCF29 Gay marriage is legal now (and that’s a fact)

[@GregOrangeDoor]

It’s amazing how only 6 years later, we see how correct Doug Wilson was.

[@CanonPress]

So true.

[@872hurikane]

Watching this today I thought Doug could have added in more than just polygamy. So many new issues have arrived by opening this door.

[@GregOrangeDoor]

Kenneth Littrell yes, but think how much has changed in such a short time. Scary stuff.

[@zachhecita]

When Doug was asked at around the 1:29:00 mark what harm has homosexual marriage caused society, all I was thinking, "Well, the T in LGBTQ is a pretty big leap off a cliff from loving the same gender to believing you are the other gender." Then you reminded me this was from 2013. The slippery slope is no longer hypothetical, it is happening. People are altering their entire physiology, causing permanent damage. Parents are forcing children to live genderlessly or to get irreversible surgery. There are those that insist they are of different age, ethnicity, and even species, throwing biology out the window. It's not just that marriage is ceasing to have any meaning, humanity is deteriorating as well.

[@GregOrangeDoor]

Zachary Hecita IMO your analysis is spot. Crazy times which we live, and know our parents and Grand parents said the same things, but the fabrics of our cultural and even biology are being eroded by this insanity. Again, your comment was spot on

[@spongewirbb]

Empathy does not give a reason to compromise and pervert Gods word. I was bisexual, what is keeping me from temptations is knowing that I live not for myself but for Christ. It’s sad to see how these students are learning. The devil comes like an angel, these people will be deceived so easy.

[@westloves]

I have many questions for you in your walk. My friend is struggling right now. And I’m not sure how to be a friend and be faithful to God?

[@mrhartley85]

Lots of appeal to emotion

[@coltoncarthel9687]

That is literally all he does ... its exhausting.

[@adelaideh.1761]

Wow. I have never watched someone so emphatically argue against logic and fact armed solely with emotional storytelling. An excellent example of how to lose an argument by not presenting it.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

And your source of "logic and facts" is that which is spelled out in the Bible? Got it.

[@robertlewis6915]

@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 Yours is? On a purely assessing level, Wilson used arguments and Sullivan used emotions, on average.

[@jjalvarez25]

Doug had one single objective in mind: to preach the Gospel.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@HaleBopp Is that fact that you are now older relevant because you are now wiser and have somehow identified "facts and logic" in the Bible you were not able to see before or is it "relevant" because you are closer to death now and simply hope that it is true?

[@justin10292000]

​@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016Why, yes: the Bible IS Truth.

[@reference12]

What a fantastic moderator Peter Hitchens was, even with a fever he managed to school Andrew Sullivan. Andrew Sullivan was actually the rude one by agreeing to a question period and then scolding the moderator for doing his job because he couldn't handle the questions. Peter the greater Hitchens!

[@NB-lv8oq]

And that woman was disgustingly rude to him when it went to the audience.

[@tylerbuckner3750]

Logic/Scriptural Authority vs. “I think, I feel.” Literally EVERY debate on the issue. This alone should make the truth self-evident.

[@redeemed354]

Sadly, most people don't see nor realize that this happened in Genesis 3. God gave a commandment, Satan tempted eve, caused her to doubt, and reinterpret what God spoke. In other words, Satan asked the question in a way that put eve in the judges seat. No different from what we see here... GOD has spoken vs human autonomy, I think, I feel, culture, society, etc.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Scriptural authority? It's like saying I have authority about the existence of life on other planets because I read a Superman comic book.

[@justin10292000]

​@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 The idea is absurd, your comparing the Word of God to a "superman comic book."

[@anythgofnthg154]

I'm perplexed at how Peter and Christopher Hitches can be so different and yet so alike.

[@constantdoodle32]

I know right.

[@TheSergio1021]

I was legitimately surprised to find out they are actually brothers. Reminds me of my brother who is an atheist, and I a Christian.

[@kuzivaj.z]

Yeah they voices and speaking mannerisms 😱

[@johnbrooks7144]

Yes, they are both mortal. Imagine that! Actually there is a wide gulf between Peter and Christopher. Christopher has discovered just how wide that gulf is.

[@daltonhayden1804]

Wow. Doug seems to use at least half as many words as his opponent and seems so calm when interrupted. He even seems to not try and immediately correct him when he’s completely wrong. I hope I can have that kind of patience.

[@dreonballard5201]

Me too brother, me too!

[@TheBluntNinja]

I'm a bit surprised he was as restrained as he was. Having listened to and read his works, I know he has some slam dunks up his sleeve he never issued.

[@tyc4587]

@@TheBluntNinja facts dude! I was actually really angry with him not explaining WHY homosexuality is wrong. He just wouldn’t say it nor would he address that dudes faulty arguments. Made me so angry,

[@ministryoftruth1451]

His listening skill is one that I admire.

[@johnbrooks7144]

A good memory helps.

[@MrAllan875]

When Sullivan talked about winning the Holy Spirit over, I realised he has never known the Holy Spirit! Oh Lord, could you give me just a quarter of the patience and calmness that Doug has.

[@donnadeau7619]

Neither have you ever 'known' the holy spirit. Be honest for once.

[@donnadeau7619]

@Anders Bruce You think you spiritual balls; define the holy spirit?

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

I've got news for you Omal, you don't know any Holy Spirit either. You know voices in your head (generated by your own brain) and you've convinced yourself that these voices come from elsewhere. Funny how these "outside voices" always seem to confirm what you already wanted to believe in the first place, huh?

[@justin10292000]

​@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016That is your faith belief. You are wrong, but don't take OUR word for it: you will find out for yourself soon enough!!

[@justin10292000]

​@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 That's your belief. Billions of us can speak to the Truth of Holy Spirit and His Power.

[@tahuskey]

Two defining moments: 1. when the old man asked about sex outside of marriage, which exposed Mr. Sullivan's inconsistency (he just got through giving a speech on faithfulness) said that sex outside marriage was good. 2. Wilson's conclusion, attacking marriage IS attacking the gospel, period.

[@pyr666]

sex outside of marriage=/=unfaithful.

[@davidrobinson5180]

That old man won the whole shebang.

[@alexturkmani6451]

That old man was Wilson’s father, I believe

[@Norapop505]

In fairness to Mr. Sullivan, outside, in context, should be understood to mean before

[@BenGreenwaldo]

@@alexturkmani6451 dying 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@verarose6003]

In 8 years time, we see how Douglass was correct in the need on drawing a line. Look at where we are now in 2021.

[@markfernandes836]

We're in a much better place than any christian theocracy.

[@memarie9373]

@@markfernandes836 , It would be better than the clowns running the Nation today with all their psychotic breakdown of what's right and wrong and what's to be accepted and not accepted and guarded as rules for us to live by now, and then changing their mind a month later and then a month later changing their mind again and again and again, it would be much better than this shit

[@markfernandes836]

@@memarie9373 How would it be better in any meaningful sense? You would rather bow to an unquestionable authority? You would rather kneel before autocrats who give you false gods and instrumental axioms? I would not. Vote for politicians who have good policies. You are a turkey begging, wishing, pleading for Christmas.

[@memarie9373]

@@markfernandes836 , Well I don't believe in God's as in plural I am a Christian, and my God is not a false god, so therefore for me, personally it would be fitting

[@markfernandes836]

@@memarie9373 A christian theocracy will be ruled by humans, not by God. Surely its blasphemy to treat your leaders as if they had the authority of God?

[@dustinetter648]

8 years later and I dont think you could have this debate at a college. Excellent closing by Wilson.

[@GhostGuy764]

You couldn't because it's silly to debate if gay people deserve to get married. We should debate more pertenent things like if people deserve to not work themselves to death or if affordable healthcare is important to a functioning society

[@kanani717]

It’s not silly to point out that behavior is not identity, which is the entire framework of the alphabet community’s political movement. The reason we can’t get healthcare or infrastructure is because Democrats are obsessed with perversion.

[@keithwilson6060]

@@GhostGuy764 The joke’s on you. The debate has quickly moved to whether more than 2 people should be allowed to enter into a legal marriage.

[@justin10292000]

​@@GhostGuy764Sexual ethics is NOT a "silly" matter. Your comment has not aged well at all.

[@GodFather_XI]

Good lord what a long, drawn-out debate. Andrew Sullivan's main points (if that's what you call them) are drowned in a sea of emotion, drivelling and irrelevance.

[@uyuyuy99]

Yep. And he completely and utterly dodged Wilson's hypothetical question about a theocracy created via a democratic vote. It was consciously and shamefully dishonest.

[@johnbrooks7144]

It was extremely difficult for me to watch and listen to the end. Sullivan certainly had a fan club at the U of Idaho. Shameful that such an institution of lower learning is propped up by the taxes of the Idaho farmers.

[@husarodelrey2159]

@@johnbrooks7144 same. Started listening to this earlier today, and thought I should finish the entire thing because I might find Sullivan's arguments insightful. They're not exactly that, apparently. I had to stop about halfway through.

[@johnbrooks7144]

@@husarodelrey2159 Listen to the last five minutes, Doug's final rebuttal. Doug points out the Bible verse that Satan and his disciples hate the most.

[@toddcote4904]

The gay man's argument is nothing more than mob rule. I find him completely obnoxious in his rambling on and on.

[@davidlane147]

I thought this was going to be a somewhat theological debate. The gay man is just using a sob story to play on people’s emotions and get them on-side by emotional blackmail, not logic or a belief in scripture and God

[@millantronni3242]

@@davidlane147 Demonstrate that this divine entity exists

[@millantronni3242]

@@Top_Cheeze "Creation exists " How can you demonstrate that there have been a creation at all, that is, from ex nihilo? A cyclic universe does not need ex nihilo and it does not need a divine entity intervention. What ever cause, if it was a cause, "got universe going", how do you know it is not created by natural means but must had a divine entity involved?

[@andres.e.]

@@millantronni3242 Physics and Astronomy have proven the Universe is not cyclical and that it had a beginning.

[@millantronni3242]

@@andres.e. "Physics and Astronomy have proven the Universe is not cyclical and that it had a beginning." No it have not, there are a number of different theories and these theories work out their math correctly but no one knows what happen before Planck time. Latest paper I read about the subject gave some extra points for a cyclic universe, but again, no body knows. Beside, even if it had a beginning , it could also have a natural cause, not necessary a super natural entity. If you add a super natural entity to the equation you need to demonstrate that such thing have or do exist or even is possible.

[@SCRaetz]

For all the soul-searching Sullivan has done, it's all in vain. Had he searched the Bible as much as he searched his soul, he would find the answers he's been asking his entire life.

[@maranatha6730]

So true. Also applicable to life, to all all humanity. The answers to all questions & all PROBLEMS are found in the pages of the holy Bible (Scriptures).

[@benjaminaboagye9846]

Well said

[@charlesmick7465]

I totally agree Raetz, let the bible speak for itself. Has not God who gave ability to speak unto mankind not able to communicate his full will through the Holy bible?

[@Devsord637]

@@charlesmick7465 the bible is a book of bs that someone wrote and now u guys think it's the official definition of right and wrong

[@charlesmick7465]

@@Devsord637 Yeah but if you follow, your logic---you just wrote something down of that you're saying anything written is all BS. What is the point of reading anything unless we have hope something is true/real? Spend more time writing things that are true and real to give people hope then merely attacking everything......there is no profit in hopelessness

[@winburna852]

1:58:33 Of course you are winning. You're going assume you are winning by thinking you are on the right side of history, but will end up being on the wrong side of eternity.

[@jacob_maier]

Sullivan stubborn as an ox and can hardly allow anyone around him to breath or get more then a word in edgewise...and that girl at the end was insufferable.

[@Zanroff]

I would like to see a debate between Doug and Andrew on the topic of "What is Christianity". I sense that Andrew does not hold the scripture to the same authoritative standard that Jesus did/does.

[@ItsJesseJr]

Of course Sullivan doesn’t. He’s Catholic

[@JD-xz1mx]

@@ItsJesseJr He clearly does not hold the Catholic church as authoritative, so by the Catholic church's own definition, he is not a Catholic. He worships himself.

[@Atomic419]

I’m not a Christian (I’m a student of Vedanta) but I admire Doug Wilson and how he carries himself. He is so composed and calm and that is admirable.

[@nigelpierre1991]

What is the benefit of being a student of Vedanta?

[@belladrew3853]

Observation: After listening to Mr. Sullivan, I detect some deep-seated hurts in his life. Two strongholds that really stand out are his mother’s message that “he was a mistake” and exclusion. If one really listens, as Mr. Wilson did, a person can detect what is going on in someone’s life. The more Sullivan talked; the more he revealed.

[@JG-201]

And, I think, that he couldn't get married with a woman.

[@TheThejoseph]

This is why he interrupts so often

[@johnbrooks7144]

@@JG-201 He could do all things through Christ in accordance with what Christ commanded. Even now he could turn from his sordid stinking sodomy and use the rest of his life to glorify God.

[@JG-201]

@@johnbrooks7144 Yes that's true. Sorry maybe I wrote it wrong. What I meant is that he didn't had a chance to marry.

[@johnbrooks7144]

@@JG-201 I do not understand how you can consider that Andrew didn't have a chance to marry. I managed to convince a woman to marry me and I am not wealthy or physically attractive. Our children are though!

[@johndonne8657]

It is nearly insufferable to listen to Sullivan meander and dodge the opposing argument time and time again. Wilson asked honest and to-the-point questions. Hitchens too.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

So you're conceding that this was a 2 against 1 debate?

[@Deeda1021]

You know, throughout the questioning, I really didn’t understand why Mr. Wilson wasn’t answering the question directly. But, after hearing the closing statement.....if he had answered it in the beginning or throughout the questioning, it would have been lost within the debate. I stuck it out, and I’m glad I did. It’s funny, despite all of the emotional arguments made by Sullivan (probably because I knew it was going to be a factor in most of his arguments), it’s the Gospel conclusion and being reminded of what life was made to be centered on that moved me. I am a Christian after all. But, to be reminded of what we stand on in midst of all this political and moral debate, and especially now in covid times.....that blessed me. That’s all. 😌🙏🏾🙌🏾

[@roberttippett3733]

Deeda1021 We have this in common: Somehow we came here during Covid-19 lockdown.

[@westloves]

Amen, I agree completely

[@Norwalquero]

1:59:15 "I sometimes have answers that involve more than one sentence." What a difficult concept for an ADD generation to internalize!

[@Alexkearney]

I notice that oftentimes those who claim to be Christian and gay can wax eloquent on the love of Christ and kindness to all, but when they are tested in the slightest way, prove to be most un-Christlike.

[@jde-jj1lu]

He uses the scripture to suit his sinful choices and lifestyle. He's fooling himself, not actual Christians, and especially not Jesus. .

[@johnvillasenior2355]

@@jde-jj1lu Yes. Especially since Jesus said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said therefore a man shall leave his mother and father and hold fast to his wife..."

[@aquilabird]

I'm sure African Americans acted very unchristlike when confronting their own bigots back in the day, and I doubt you would chide them for their frustration. Even Jesus cast out the moneychangers. Frustration in response to injustice is in fact a very Christlike characteristic.

[@Alexkearney]

@@aquilabird he wasn’t responding to injustice he was responding to Peter Hitchens asking him hard questions. Also, his choice to lead a sinful lifestyle is not comparable to ethnicity.

[@appumathew]

Excellent Closing statement by Douglas. Never compromising God's Word and the Gospel.

[@saragreen1143]

amen

[@donnadeau7619]

What the hell is wrong with You and Douglas ? The blood of JC has nothing to do with sexuality.

[@appumathew]

@@donnadeau7619 He died so he can redeem us and the world from it's corruption. Redeem and restore to what is true and wholesome. I believe, christians ought to speak on issues so that the light is kept shining in this world of darkness. If God created sexuality, there is order and purpose behind how he intended it to be. There is a God-perspective to sexuality which we ought to communicate in this world of confusion.

[@donnadeau7619]

@@appumathew Wow wow wow, back up the truck a little bit. In biblical theology, it was the creator gods who 'cursed' the ground and the whole Planet, not Adam and Eve.The 'corruption' came from the Corruptors who did the cursing, not its human and animal victims.Lets get that straight. Learn something about cause and effect, will you? Read your Genesis properly, it was the gods who brought the 'world wide flood, not humans who displease the shallow god(s) that are the monstrous criminals. This criminal mythical activity is central throughout the bible. What a shame, because god can be a beautiful story without all that human carnage and gratuitous suffering. As to sexuality, your character god whatever it might be, has no clue of what it is to be male or female, he is 'spirit' Jh 4:24 for god's sake. so no need to respond to this theological confusion and assumption {if god...). Have a safe day.

[@donnadeau7619]

@@appumathew Thanks for your exchange.

[@mclaughlinjames7]

Mr. Sullivan makes a number of compelling and interesting points during this conversation. The problem is, none of them has anything to do with marriage itself. Instead it is about the societal stigma regarding homosexuals, or the role of monogamy in a relationship, both of which are completely independent of the marriage debate.

[@BirdsofAccord]

When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise. (Proverbs 10:19, NASB) Three persons on the stage proved that this is true. Hitchens and Wilson were incredibly wise in keeping their mouths closed and show self-control in light of the foolishness and wordiness of Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Sullivan needs to realize this: that he is exposing himself more than he realizes when he interrupts Wilson and Hitchens.

[@aidenmarshall6478]

40:47 "Your asking me loaded questions" " Of course they are" was hilarious.

[@djamilamarouf7027]

This debate is 8 years old, and today August 2021 they are involving kids and unfluencing kids to come out as gay 🙄

[@derptastic1441]

I started listening this morning, first to Andrew. He refers to himself as a Christian, yet in his opener he didnt make one reference to God's Word. That set the stage.

[@AmayzinOne]

I never want to hear a debate with Andrew Sullivan ever again... That was wildly intolerable.

[@csapienza001]

The opening statement of Sullivan is pure narcissism

[@keithwilson6060]

More “I’s” than an insect’s seeing organ.

[@RayNaraine]

I would love to see this debate revisited now, 8 yrs later. We have approved same sex marriage and we’ve seen business sued because they will not support this community. We’ve now seen the institution of marriage perverted in the exact way predicted. So, I would love to see this debate revisited now that we have some real data under our belt.

[@RansomedSoulPsalm49-15]

I mean it wasnt even a real debate. Andrew's "argument" was "but i wanna get married :( "

[@gwills24]

I seem to remember the opponents of same sex marriage warning us that heterosexual marriage will be permanently hindered and dismayed if same sex marriage is allowed. They were wrong. 8 years later, the earth is still spinning and many many more people support same sex marriage. All quite predictable.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

How has the institution of marriage been perverted? Perhaps your own marriage has gone sour and what a nice scapegoat (a process approved by your Bible, by the way, scapegoating) it is to blame what two gay guys 20 miles down the road are doing.

[@deangailwahl8270]

@@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016 No facts from you just a unwarranted statement based on your feelings.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

@@deangailwahl8270 Here's a fact. The patriarchs of your great religion had concubines and multiple wives. So if we are to hold to Biblical standards, let me get my harem of concubines lined up. Happy now?

[@bobbygD]

Andrew strangely seems to choose to become a christian when it is suits him well to appeal to the emotions of the audience. Then at some point he has the most unchristian views on sex, evolution and God etc. Christian or not, which is which? He definitely has a high verbal IQ, but he is arguing in a very deceptive way here.

[@timmywright7099]

Facts don’t care about feelings. So much emotional waffling and avoiding the main point.

[@yordanvidenov6554]

Marriage rights are pretty equal as of now: men can marry women and women can marry men.

[@tyc4587]

FACTS! That’s equal, it’s not based on emotions.

[@karll977]

Did you marry someone you didn’t love for breeding purposes.

[@matthewmanucci]

Is Andrew unaware of how a moderates debate works?

[@CanonPress]

That's an intentional strategy for gaining empathy by playing the victim, I believe.

[@benjaminaboagye9846]

@@CanonPress Exactly!

[@ludovicoc7046]

Typical Sullivan debate default--a one-man pity party: "Woe is me, woe is me."

[@ipsizm9265]

Says the straight guy who was never called faggot, thought of as disgusting for kissing on the lips the person he loves in public, or been threatened with violence,

[@dgbull]

@@ipsizm9265 Woe is me is not a persuasive argument when objective truth is the goal.

[@ipsizm9265]

@@dgbull Do tell us about "objective truth." The logic, to the extent a Christian presuppositionalist can rely on logic, is some variation of the tautology: "Marriage is not available to anyone other than what we define as a man and a woman because it is a Christian sacrament because Christianity declares it to be." Substitute paganism for Christianity, or any other faith based practice you ascribe to, and imagine how frustrating it would be to observe and experience how preference displaces tolerance, bigotry thwarts acceptance.

[@dgbull]

@@ipsizm9265 It would be utterly foolish to view anything from an untruthful lense. Your response is simply another appeal to emotion.

[@maow9240]

@@ipsizm9265 I've been called factor and threatened with violence and I'm not even gay.

[@Xxxxxx19-p1c]

I’m so glad Doug shared the gospel.

[@Sirach144]

If God ordained gay marriage then why didn't he design two men's bodies to be physically compatible?

[@QuesoSlam]

Does Andrew Sullivan hear himself? Does he seriously not see his inconsistency? It seems to be so obvious that I have a difficulty understanding how he's missing it.

[@tyc4587]

Our man Doug dropped the ball and didn’t show him that completely IMO

[@andrewtaylor1737]

this aged well, Doug is prophetic 😂

[@jjalvarez25]

The word of God is prophetic.

[@BrokTheLoneWolf]

I want special privilege for my deviancies! But not for other people’s deviancies!

[@markacohen1]

As an atheist, I was surprised how well Doug Wilson argued simply because I had never read anything by WIlson before. My conclusion is that it is Sullivan who is being illogical. He runs to secular values (my own) when he needs them, and ignores religious authority in that instance because it serves his desires for equality in marriage rights. It is easy and perfectly logical as a secularist to support gay marriage because for us marriage is indeed a social construction not a divine edict nor forcibly tethered to biological procreation or morality. Straight or gay marriage are the same thing from that perspective.

[@jennjc800]

Agree, completely. I am a Christian and was wondering what the purpose was of debating a preacher when it appeared that Mr. Sullivan was arguing from a wordly standpoint with a platform of emotions and feelings. I think he made a feeble attempt of bringing back the topic of faith with his "Jesus said..." comment. It clearly had no link to the Bible and he unfortunately seems to be suffering from church hurt which is a different debate...but your comment was spot on!!!

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

Thank the God you don't believe in that you weren't born gay, huh? It's just a nice, fun, intellectual argument you can engage in with no affect on your life whatsoever.

[@jacob_maier]

Doug you amaze me brother. Thank you for your labor

[@strepsil08]

What a great debate. Probably the first time I've ever seen Peter Hitchens smile, he's clearly enjoying himself.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

That's because he's a smug, fundamentalist asshole.

[@savannahbunn5688]

Sullivan “I’ve searched my mind and my heart” ................ I think the heart is pretty deceitful...actually I don’t think that God said that.

[@stevenrogersfineart4224]

Proverbs 3:5-6 😀

[@ElReyGarcia11]

People got so mad at Hitchens here, thought it was uncalled for. He wasn't really rude, thats just how he is

[@littleboots9800]

Sullivan is insufferable, constantly appealing to emotion and rude to boot.

[@BrokTheLoneWolf]

Wilson’s wit gets me every time. 🤣

[@motorTranz]

Powerful closing statement by Doug Wilson! This was a good debate! Thank you!

[@jlaw5767]

Sullivan was in no way prepared to go off script! 🤣 And all Doug had to do was keep pointing out that his basis for all he believes is not scripture. It’s his emotions and experience.

[@WienArtist]

When one considers the statement, "good for society", one must define what is meant by that statement. If one understands it to mean what the majority engage in or in which they willingly and willfully participate; it is merely an appeal to the masses, which is a logical fallacy. It begs the question concerning societal quality or goodness based upon the acceptance of the multitude. Are the masses always correct? I think you know the answer to that question. Additionally, legalizing anything does not qualify it as the touchstone of goodness for a society.

[@Globeguy1337]

Exactly- and if it were accepted that something is good because it is popularly held to be so, the entire question of what ‘should be’ becomes meaningless - as the only ‘should’ would be maintaining whatever happened to be the status quo - conformance would be the only principle (which, ironically, would have precluded the adoption of gay marriage if he had proposed this principle only a few years before). As I see it, he spent a great deal of the debate skipping from one subject to another by equivocating through imprecise, semantically overloaded terms.

[@FOTAP97]

Sullivan .... just ... can’t .... stop himself ... from ... interrupting ... CONSTANTLY and I suppose the main reason Peter didn’t avail himself of any of the many opportunities to call him on it was because Sullivan would only then whine about his feelings or his injured right to interrupt.

[@samuelharris1689]

Romans 1:18-32 LORD strengthen those who are faithful and obedient to Your word. In Jesus name Amen

[@theantil7]

Andrew steals the show with anecdotes instead of arguments. The moderator then proceeds to question him further, leaving Wilson with hardly any time to speak among the three.

[@Jruuuuu]

I kind of hope to see this debate revisited as a “hindsight” type debate. “Do you still stand by your argument” - Doug was clearly correct in his observations, but I’d be curious on andrews perspective

[@relarerfhjk]

Erikson studied parenting by one gender, which applies to same-sex parenting. What Erikson rightly says (and we're talking a real pioneer in child psychology here) is that fatherly and motherly love are completely unique, that children notice the difference, and that they need toe experience both. Critically, the point about children knowing gender differences from 8 weeks old, is that they then learn how men and women relate to each other and children,from experiencing interaction with both!

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

So if we can't have the ideal, let's not have anything. Children being adopted by a single parent or a set of grandparents is not ideal, so let's ban those practices.

[@markyboy2313]

That Andrew guy embarassed himself. He was all over the place and just comes across as a hurt little boy trapped in an adult's body. Doug and the moderator did so much patient listening. I would like to see more of both of them. Doug and the moderator that is.

[@mk71b]

1:20:11 You cannot base your arguments on God one moment and then again on evolution. You will have to choose one since they are mutually incompatible.

[@morganwildwood6168]

"Heterosexuals can take marriage for granted." True, but when I hear that, what also comes to mind is all the gay married couples I'vr known, and the stats around them, that show they're in open marriages. It's one thing to say you value marriage because you're going to stay together forever. But to me, marriage is monogamy first and foremost.

[@thanksforbeingausefulidiot9016]

How about the stats on straight marriage, like a 50%+ divorce rate? But let's not worry about that, because two gay guys on the other side of town want to get married and that will just ruin everything.

[@nchinth]

there's no one who destroys their own credibility more instantly & fully than someone who actively rejects the teaching of the Church to which they profess to belong.

[@ahoycaptain5065]

To be completely honest, I’m a 16 year old Muslim female. Ive always been attracted to other females. But I knew deep down, that it was wrong, it IS wrong. So I kept lying to myself this year, every time I woke up, I told myself “you do not truly like women, you are just temporarily attracted to them and you know damn well that’s wrong”. And well, here I am, straight as hell lol, (hot male kdrama actors helped a lot) lol but my point is, you CAN change it. Ive heard many homosexuals say “i was born this way, i cant change it”YES YOU CAN! if you truly wanted to change

[@terrancenewman9776]

That is a wonderful testimony. People forget that The Bible tells us to "DENY OURSELVES." It also tells us the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Being led by our feelings is becoming more destructive.

[@Mika_565]

Thats kinda sad

[@ahoycaptain5065]

@@Mika_565 nahhh in the end I became a better person That experience taught me self control I can’t just give in to what my body desires without thinking of the consequences

[@aspiknf]

@@ahoycaptain5065 Are you sure you aren't bisexual?

[@roushanam]

Yes, here you are, you and your sixteen years, hot male kdrama actors lol, straight as hell also lol, and your stage name Ahoy Captain Bimbo.

[@bornforburning777]

most interesting take from this for me: sullivan has a low view of marriage / married couples generally. Dedicated monogamy is a 'struggle;' husbands and wives are 'keeping up social appearances;' marriage is a place sex goes to die. I'm not blaming him for what is probably an extrapolation made from genuine experience, but at least where I come from, this is NOT the perspective of most married couples.

[@perperson199]

Peter is as witty as his late brother. Good people these three

[@fredphilippi8388]

It would be very helpful if those who upload videos would like this one would indicate the date of the event. Retrospectively, it make for good history.

[@ashleythomas2904]

Goodness, Andrew Sullivan is extremely long winded. I bet if someone added up the minutes both Wilson and Sullivan spoke for Sullivan would have well over half.

[@RisaDNP]

easily more than half

[@JonahLapensee]

Andrew Sullivan cant be quiet long enough for Wilson to make complete any thoughts.

[@michelleogorman1337]

Andrew Sullivan has no argument, just emotionalism.

[@SurrySuds]

This aged gloriously

[@BibleBreakout]

Sullivan on his five minute closing: “I won’t take 5 minutes.” Takes exactly 5 minutes

[@matthewsheppard7050]

Sullivan doesn’t have an argument he has an emotional appeal. Where his emotions come from and why he believes love should be respected is never addressed. He simply sees what he wants to see and the crowd goes wild with his, “shut up and listen to me.” Quips.

[@SudoDama]

Andrew Sullivan came off as an emotional adolescent.

[@dingusmoped]

Doug Wilson just seems like he's toying with Andrew's arguments...Love how Andrew tries to lecture Doug on the Bible...It's like a janitor lecturing a doctor on how to do surgery.

[@5va]

Closing remarks by Wilson was astounding

[@joshuaracey7967]

Peter's intro, to himself and the others, is the most entertaining debate intro I've ever heard

[@SomeChristianGuy.]

I felt like I should have identified as a scandanavian before watching this with all the herrings being thrown around by the party in favour.

[@CanonPress]

ha, nice

[@alexsazo9540]

Woah, I don’t understand why he attacked the moderator so much. Just by those words alone, I’m sure you know who I am referring t.

[@000MrJwright]

This aged well. We live under a rainbow theocracy now.

[@williamlawson7852]

Sullivan throwing a fit at Hitchens is hilarious!

[@csapienza001]

At 1hr 54 mins the Catholic is now arguing for premarital sex. Smh.

[@csapienza001]

"When I found out I was a sexual being it was the most amazing thing."

[@csapienza001]

This is perversion.

[@Mik3xcellence]

He’s no Catholic much less a Christian

[@csapienza001]

@@Mik3xcellence He was baptized so he is part of the family. We have to pray for him. (Pray for me too)

[@Steve_T14]

@@csapienza001 baptism doesn’t save you, it’s a act of obedience to God, which is ultimately worthless if you still choose to rebel against his word.

[@brayfamily548]

Doug should have asked about bisexuals. Are they fundamentally allowed to marry two spouses?

[@bobbybower9405]

He did

[@relarerfhjk]

Fair enough. I refer to the "Left" as a catch-all term for the anti-family forces currently undermining the traditional family which conservatives (naturally) seek to 'conserve'.

[@Mik3xcellence]

“We are all sodomites now” Uh..no

[@TheUglyAmerican007]

Andrew was clearly appealing to emotions . Very evident when he asked “ is that not love?” when telling the story about his dad. Who would guess otherwise

[@katherinelipari6610]

Man. This is hard to listen to 10 years in the future. Doug is so right about there being no line anymore.

[@legacycrafter777]

I need more Peter Hitchens in my life.

[@TheBluntNinja]

He's almost as smart as Doug Wilson, who is almost as smart as John MacArthur

[@McCainAthlink]

"in the beginning He made them male and female. Let nothing come between them"- Jesus

[@adamdaniel6245]

The guy in the glasses really likes to listen to himself

[@KaylasMusicalDigest545]

Lol true

[@hookoffthejab1]

Interesting how Andrew was so determined to make Doug give a secular argument against gay marriage despite calling himself a believer in Christ. Listening to that segment made it clear Andrew values secular reasoning and democracy far more than his "faith".

[@nattamused9074]

Man! I’m watching this video in 2023, 10 years after the debate. And I must say this issue has aged like a fine roadside deer. And it’s now plain to see, that the best answer Mr. Wilson could have given to his opponent’s request for specific, pragmatic, non-theological examples for “What harm do monogamous homosexual marriage present?” would’ve been “Wait and see.” Mr. Sullivan really cannot answer the question of what standard he is using to arrive at his particular definition of what marriage is, and why he gets to draw the line at monogamy.

[@georgem5589]

9 years later proves Doug was the voice of reason.

[@reasonwarrior]

As reason cannot exist without God, this makes perfect sense. Miracles by C.S. Lewis is a good reference for this.

[@wild7goose]

Sullivan gave up his hand when in the Q&A, he admitted that his final authority is a majority consensus, not God and what He decrees is good/evil. It then becomes clear that bias comes to its peak when he doesn’t answer the question on if he would accept a majority consensus for Theocracy. Hands down, he lost the debate there and then. Also, it astounds me that more questioners didn’t hold his feet to the fire of Scripture on how can he Biblically justify homosexuality to not be sinful. That is the immediate question I would ask.

[@jimgourlay4430]

Sullivan was very weak on excluding polygamists - very arbitrary, lacking evidence and unwilling to see where the logic of his position inevitably leads. He probably sees it, being an intelligent man, but doesn't want to go there I strongly suspect.

[@christiankalafut5572]

Given the current trend toward actual polygamy (an an egalitarian society woo), he had good reason not to go there.

[@davidlegkodukh6969]

@@christiankalafut5572 Clearly He would look even more foolish if he admitted it 👍

[@nobusiness8472]

Andrew doesn't want a debate he wants a speech platform. He wants to redefine marriage but not let others redefine it. He wants his cake. There is no reason with gay marriage that multiple people can't marry.

[@karll977]

You bought fake emotions from Jesus?

[@bfinn6160]

Leaping in to an emotionally charged plea for acceptance based on contribution and feelings is not a great debate tactic. Facts are not swayed by feelings.

[@USNsub1]

This is an odd debate format. I wish it were different allowing both participants to speak.