Richard Reeves - “Of Boys and Men” & Reframing Debates About Gender | The Daily Show

[@leaflaurel]

This is hands down my favorite part of rotating hosts. Desi always brings great conversations around gender, and we're actually getting such a cool variety of perspectives with the guests.

[@LovelyIslandVacation-ch6wo]

The cool new perspective of yt men who demand to be centered is a perspective America needs to hear more about

[@stephenfurches5091]

Desi and Kosta are the best!

[@avaleen]

This is such a brilliant conversation. What a brave, powerful and productive posture to take on this issue. Our society would benefit from a willingness to have more important hard conversations like this with openness and levity.

[@agilemind6241]

This was a pathetic conversation - a man looking weak and scared of being called out by a feminist, while saying not to blame feminists, while also blaming feminists. Seriously now? What's happened to men that the only ones I see in media are rage-fulled idiots, creepy weirdos, or those scared of shadows? hbomberguy, folding ideas, and shaun are all more impressive men and trying to provide a positive way forwards for men in the 21st century.

[@tirvine9102]

Yes, and this is only the surface, he doesn't really get into the ways the struggles of men and woman are different. For example, men are taught to be guarded with their emotions their whole lives, making therapy a much more difficult road. Women are making economic strides today nurtured with mass support, over decades of fighting for their rights, and that's great. Traditionally a man's role is to carry a heavy burden by standing strong without support. As the barriers between genders soften, men need more support to equalize that balance.

[@BloodlessJG]

You are unemployed, it's obvious 🎉

[@stephen1462]

Scott Galloway makes similar arguments, but Reeves does it in a less abrasive manner and provides some hope for change. His ability to use humor to explain the problem makes the message more receptive to others IMO.

[@XxxThePsyCheMisTxxX]

His more serious framing is just as effective as his humor in disinfecting the taboo that has grown over this issue, and giving others a better way to discuss it as well. I applaud him as well!

[@timmehtimmeh576]

Contrast it with how Jordan Peterson talks about the same stuff. Totally different vibe. I suppose some of that is contingent on the interviewer.

[@kyledavis5912]

This is a conversation that fathers and mothers, needed to have with thier sons, about 45 years ago. Societal change starts from within the home, always. Ideals are passed generationally. Learn this one particular trait from your grandfather (because he does --- well) but also this other trait from your sister (because she does --- better than others) ...as a child and teen you need multiple examples to learn from in order to find the balance later on in life, of a semi-well adjusted person.

[@TheEvolver311]

Lol most kids grow up barley interacting with their parents they are to busy working pay check to pay check

[@kyledavis5912]

@TheEvolver311 You're absolutely right, I won't try to argue against that. But I did say 45 years ago and that would've been when one earner households were still quite common. Never the less, this is one big reason in how we got here. As distracted, tired, unwilling parents unengaged with their children and teaching the nuanced things about themselves that nor school or friendships couldn't. Working tirelessly paycheck to paycheck is super rough, been there...but as a parent, you don't (or *shouldn't) have a choice but to also put energy into your children. A lot of people used that as an excuse and now we have a generation of men that have no awareness of what it means to be positive influence in masculinity....and so they looked elsewhere; and found a false representation of manhood in a spray tan diety.

[@Hendrixski]

It's also a conversation we have to have with our wives and daughters about no longer ignoring the inequalities faced by men.

[@coreywall1977]

I am surprised to see this conversation occurring like this. Respect.

[@ChrisLeeW00]

Finally, right?

[@EmrysMerlin8807]

There was a time not too long ago where this conversation would have been literally impossible to have. Bravo

[@stevenmcgrew869]

Yeah, like just a short while ago before the election. You would be attacked and called all kinds of names for supporting men. Wonder why the blue team lost?

[@methodsocratic]

@@EmrysMerlin8807 I mean, “not long ago” was about two months back on Jon Stewart’s TWS.

[@andretoth]

This guy is is an incredible scholar and doing such important work, thanks for having him on

[@gregoryisom7741]

Why would they if they didn't lose an election. don't assume this station actually cares about anything but the next election.

[@pekka75]

I couldn`t agree more! 💪

[@jayff0000]

I feel like he is the best or at least the most diplomatic at talking about this stuff - which is important because if you don't have basically a perfectly fair frame around anything gender related many people will rush to stop listening and retreat to their own flawed and biased perspectives about us versus them, etc.

[@DmGray]

Honesrly, kinda disagree. The man has to bend over backwards to be the most diplomatic and inclusive of women's issues at all times. This IS a comedy interview, obviously, so the comedic exaggeration and silliness from Desi is on brand... but can you REALLY imagine women's issues needing so much extra context? I've been discussing gender politics and men's rights online for around a decade. Things are WAY better now than they used to be... but some accountability should really be taken by feminists. THe man here very diplomatically suggestred that the refusal to talk about these issues left a vacuum. There was no "refusal" there was outright hostility. I watched as men's issues were VERY successfully taken over by the right wing, who offer no solutions and are objectively worse in every metric for men, while the left cheered it on. Last election was (hopefully) a wakeup call. But some of us have been sounding the alarm for YEARS. And being called every name you can imagine for it. Just remember the rhetoric about "Bernie bros" Look up "self made man" by Norah Vincent (and how little traction it got) Look up Cassie Jaye's "the red pill" Folks have been trying for a long time to point out the flaws in gender politics discussions. It really hasn't been men who are unwilling to listen or compromise.

[@LanceCorporalKitty]

@@DmGray I here you completely. I am a woman and I wouldn't call myself a feminist but I obviously have a stronger lean towards women's issues. However, what i've recognised is that academic conversations are great and very necessary, but in the real lives of women many things haven't changed for the better. Some of those women are then chronicaly online discussing their personal issues and seeing EVERYTHING through the lens of their personal trauma and woe betide you if you fail to disagree with that narrative. Women's issues become popular and lucrative both financially and socially and generate a type of cultural capital that become addictive because it feeds the vindication of the aforementioned personal traumas. It's actually a hot mess! This then does leave a massive void for those with nefarious purposes to swoop in and pick up the boys and men who feel left behind and have no other framework other than the Andrew Tates of teh world to figure out how to be. We NEED to have these converstaions, all of us, but we need to have them from a place of understanding that sits outside of our persoanl traumatic experiences otherwise the listening will never take place and nothing will ever get better. BUT, it's because of all of that framing and the long history of female subjugation why I totally understand the necessity for Reeves to be so diplomatic. He won't be heard if he isn't.

[@blacklot97]

@@DmGray You disagreed... but then made the same point the original poster made. See allies where they are.

[@tirvine9102]

@@DmGray I couldn't really follow your position, like the other poster said I'm not sure where you were disagreeing. But on the point of the politicization of these issues I'm not a fan of the deafening rage around gender politics. It's impossible to not get offended no matter where you land in the quagmire of online hot takes. Republicans and corporations take advantage them as talking points and distract from earth shifting issues like the environment and the ultra wealthy.

[@methodsocratic]

@@DmGray even through a comedic lens, it seemed to me as if Desi Lydic was pushing back a little much, which, ya know, in hindsight is fine (I think there was some actual tension when Reeves called her out on womansplaining his own book to him lol) Given the choice I’d always prefer an interviewer to be critical regardless of the topic rather than swallow, smile, nod, applaud.

[@barbaracasler1858]

Desi is a marvelous interviewer and has high quality guests. Brava, Desi!

[@arandom_channel8251]

Such an important conversation. As a mom of a boy and a girl, I’ve seen how boys have odds stacked against them in school early on - like in kindergarten. That does not diminish the challenges I know my daughter faces. The struggles of boys (and men) deserve to be heard and seen. Leave it to the Daily Show to bring important convos to the forefront. Bravo.

[@WorgenDeath]

Really glad Richard Reeves was asked to come onto the show, this is the conversation I wish was actually had when he was invited to the weekly show.

[@TheLongGreenLight]

We have to rise together! Or we don't rise at all! Yes!

[@emilyoud5190]

Yeah, if I remember HIStory correctly, there are a lot of cultures that did really well even when woman were bound to the house, like in the birthplace of democracy: Athens. So, no don't like the argument. But do wholeheartedly believe in a world of freedom, peace and prosperity for all.

[@iyamwhatiyam547]

What? Women have only had the vote for 100 years, women just lost the right to control their own bodies but sure, we all rise together. SMH that this whining is topical.

[@Merriwether-w8k]

If we rise together then men stay on top

[@P4yn3]

@@emilyoud5190western culture was built on it

[@zengara11]

@@emilyoud5190 Right, but there are also a lot of cultures "that did really well" with a fascist rule/dictatorship. But that is because no democracy existed. I wrote a way to big text...But basically: There in history has been women in incredible position of power, truthfully deciding everything from their own economy, to living alone in entire sections of society (not only rich or family connections, or whatever else technicality, but truthfully deciding their own lives). The past 100 years or so, is not the first time women were able to decide what happens to society (should be rather obvious, women are not sheep or toys that suddenly woke up 100 years ago). The only place that still practice that is Indonesia, because the laws and society reflected to equally improve society for men and women. When men and women are not happy together, there is no future for either party, which is mostly dangerous for women. -Even if you have a certain hate for men, or expecting men to be on top at all times, it would be the best play, to care for men, like men cares for women.- (And by men caring for women, I obviously mean that most red pilled guys, used to be feminist in some capacity, and the men that are pointing out women difficulties. Even at the start of this story (America) men where the ones who went out there, to promote women to vote and work/become independent.

[@sailordaigurren8225]

Conflating "Toxic masculinity" with "masculinity" is the problem, not the discussing about toxic masculinity as a whole. There's a lot of positive masculinity, but we need to acknowledge the problems with toxic masculinity, rather than ignoring it

[@WorgenDeath]

I think the problem is that we have been too focussed on the problems with toxic masculinity and not focussed enough on providing a better example of positive masculinity, don't get me wrong, the first conversation is important, but there needs to be room for both, because just focussing on the negative just pushes young men away, showing them a better way and being empathetic and kind is how you get them on your side.

[@richardpaquette8429]

Part of the problem is that most people are NOT capable of more than one thought at a time.

[@tipsyt1909]

I disagree, most can and do. They’re just to afraid to say it out loud. They addressed this in the interview, you weren’t allowed to talk about men’s issues because people would jump down your throat and call you sexist. Fear of social repercussions has halted many important conversations. Remember how shocked people were when Jon went on Colbert and basically said the lab leak theory was true? Nobody was allowed to say that at the time, KZbin channels being shut down, being banned from Twitter. Now it’s the leading theory and has basically been confirmed. We all knew deep down but we were all silenced by the freaks who somehow equated it with racism.

[@Exisist5151]

Nah, they are.

[@fmcg5364]

I was startled when he mentioned wages falling for men. I had to stop the video and look up declining wages for males, what I found was yes, the male wage rates declining the following text in the quotation marks is from Brooking Institute 3-4-2011 "Have Earnings Actually Declined?" "The median wage of the American male has declined by almost $13,000 after accounting for inflation in the four decades since 1969. This is a reduction of 28 percent!" Remember this statement is from 2011, so this 2011 money.

[@Emanon...]

That's a general statement for the US. The average American has become far poorer if you look at purchase power.

[@frydac]

at least the rich got richer ;D

[@TessTearoe-zp5xv]

The rich men beating down other men

[@tv19463]

⁠@@Emanon... might call it the median American if you will

[@tirvine9102]

@@frydac 😭

[@ManinaHarris]

Hey, more men in teaching? up the pay scale for all teachers and stop disrespecting teachers by calling out parents who defend their kid’s bad behavior.

[@suitestheband]

as a former male teacher, the idea that you need a "second income" to make it work is so pervasive. Even the men talk about their bread-winning wives a lot. Which is fine, but like, why does teaching have to be the secondary income job for a man or a woman?

[@streampunksheep]

Its parents fault sit the friend down

[@agilemind6241]

Yes, but also that's not how society works. Gender-biases are so entrenched in society that pay follows gender rather than the other way round. Teachers are poorly paid because it is a women-dominated career, IT jobs are well paid because it is a male-dominated career, when the gender-balance of these fields was reverse so was the pay. We need to have the really hard conversation if we actually want to fix things rather than pointing fingers at each other. Just take a moment to think about why is nursing and teaching female-dominated while doctors and university professors are male-dominated? Because it is all about the societial perception of "caring", caring is associated with women and vehemently not men so careers involving caring for others are seen as women's work. The decline of men in teaching closely parallels the shift from teachers as disciplinarians to teachers as nurturers of student potential. So, if we want to reverse the trend, what do we do? Do we go back to allowing teachers to spank students? Or do we teach men that they can be nurturers too?

[@jgaffney567]

Teacher pay across the country depends on geographic location...is 125k poor pay...in the NYC area this is common with tenure

[@Merriwether-w8k]

AI will take over education in USA - next

[@l.t.m.a.6968]

If teachers got a half decent pay in the US , more men would be interested in jointing the profession

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

A LOT of men, including me, are still teachers anyway! What a profoundly ignorant thing to say!

[@frydac]

profoundly even, care to explain? I would guess higher pay would just attract more ppl, including men. Maybe "on average", men prioritize higher pay more than women? I have no clue, I don't have actual stats, but if that is true, than it is not that profoundly ignorant I would think?

[@tallspicy]

Let me get this, women should expect less pay and that is why they are willing to be teachers? Grossly entitled. And in many places teachers make will close to 100 K.

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

@@tallspicy Exactly! I HATE OP's argument. It's ignorant and sexist.

[@JBS512]

@@MatthewTheWanderer He didn't say there weren't a lot of men in education. There is a gender gap, and if we want to attract more men, then the reputation for low pay for hard work is not helping. There may be other reasons, but it's not the ignorant, sexist, worst comment of all time like you are making it out to be. Do you think increased teacher pay wouldn't bring male interest to the field?

[@cl8333]

I remember my just turned 3-year-old observe and ask his first week of pre-school "Why are there no men teachers?" The second question is not relevant to this discussion, but the school was filled with dark wooden walls and furniture, and he observed "it's very dark" inside the classrooms. Boys are very sensitive maybe more so than girls but at least equally and highly observant. It is not going to "feminize" boys to allow them to be loving, compassionate, sensitive, heard and fully themselves.

[@aidenkendrick9144]

Great book! Really changed my view of the gender debate and made me approach the issue in a whole new way.

[@rankat1841]

In this particular area, it's not a competition. It's an attempt for understanding.

[@timblank4432]

This was great. I understand the criticism in comments, but to get this sort of conversation at this level is fantastic.

[@p382742937423y4]

Its sad that this is somehow a win. People are killing themselves, but we have to first talk about how we respect women, before we can talk about the problem.... its sad really. And the jokes are completely inappropriate

[@Rowsy91]

@p382742937423y4 lol cmon man you sound so soft

[@methodsocratic]

@@timblank4432 I wish I understood some of that criticism you mention. It makes zero sense to me, unless it’s folks trolling (which I doubt, but would actually prefer, in this case).

[@timblank4432]

@methodsocratic There was some trolling, then some people missing that the jokes are the MO of the show, Desi trolls the author and the author is rational. Then some doubting the author’s accuracies and arguments, and that it took too long to talk about this, which is just part of the conversation. Then the usual comments that missed the point or weren’t listening.

[@timblank4432]

@p382742937423y4 The jokes is just how the show works, the host trolls and the author makes sense. Again back to the point of the author’s, we can care about both the suicide / mortality rate of men and men’s issues and respect women at the same time. It’s not zero sum, even though some may want to frame it as that.

[@MoodIndigoFire]

It’s an important discussion and I’ve read the book but I wish it was more solution-focused than recitation of statistics and the problem statement. If Biden promotes more women in STEM and women also have the natural tailwind of pursuit of/desiring education, there is synchronicity. If there was a push for more male teachers, but men have declining education outcomes, there is a headwind inherently in developing more male teachers. Where I live, there are more volunteers that sign up to become BigSisters than BigBrothers…how do you make men also care more about mentoring men?

[@tirvine9102]

That's a a great question, and the hardest part. First is identifying and talking about the issue. It's taken decades for women to get recognized over many fronts, over a century if you go back to woman's suffrage and the right to vote. I believe the younger generation growing up today have a new perspective on gender, but the current political turmoil complicates my hope for the future. I found an old video with Richard Reeves talking about his HEAL acronym, a male version of women in STEM: Health, Education, Administration and Literacy. That's really stuck with me, since I saw it two years ago. I didn't realize it was the same author on the same book until I found the video, but I'll link it anyway. kzbin.info/www/bejne/enOqYoqdnJhlhc0

[@bigdreams5554]

Great conversation. Let's not forget that kindergarten is now what first or even second grade used to be 30 years ago. There's no "learning through play" in public schools anymore thanks to endless testing. This hurts boys more than girls.

[@lorenzosegote]

This is why young men are gravitating to the right wing. I am a male and a feminist, but I am also aware of toxic femininity. It works both ways. Gender is a spectrum and we treat it as it is a polar term.

[@PassportAdam]

No.. there male and female.

[@andrewstevenson118]

Gender

[@nomis2496]

@@PassportAdam 🤣🤣🙄

[@andrewstevenson118]

Is jen der the same as sax?

[@VermillionRii]

Are you a feminist? You should probably know toxic feminist, the type that actually hate men, are rare and actual feminists want nothing to do with them.

[@ItsJustDan1]

Excellent conversation. Really important stuff.

[@ZodyZody]

We need a new paradigm about teachers. The pay and benefits need to be better in order to attract the brightest applicants.

[@Ziggster625]

Well Said Richard!

[@Recloste31]

Of boys and men is the best peice of media i have consumed on gender issues, ever. Could not recommend it enough if you have even a passing interest in the subject!

[@lucasdonahue365]

I'm currently studying to get my Doctorate Nurse Practitioner license in Psychiatry. That will be one more.

[@andrewstevenson118]

That is some decent work. Thank you for advancing humanity.

[@Yo1297]

Loved the bit about men in education. I may not be a classroom teacher but I do teach after school and it can be just as important. My job is more than just hanging out with kids. It's leaading club and activities and teaching those activities. Very intresting segment.

[@sueveleke455]

Grew up in the 50's. Teacher was one profession women COULD be without a lot of hassle. I had mostly female teachers for 12 years--two male teachers. This conversation was eye opening to me. Think I need to learn more about this issue. Thank you

[@liamrooney5314]

What an insightful and significant interview. And on a comedy show of all places!

[@Gronmin]

Great to see Richard on the show proper after the podcast

[@phildg4266]

It's all and only the rich fault. Period... People from every race, creed, culture, gender are struggling 100% because of the RICH... Share their wealth, problem solved, it's not easy but it's that simple yes! 100%

[@AsifKhan-hf9zy]

Elon Musk did share his wealth with the hundreds of stockholders of twitter when he bought it.

[@christianbartl1982]

​@@AsifKhan-hf9zyhow? And if he shared any of his wealth, why did his net worth go up by so much?

[@Hendrixski]

Yet instead of blaming the men and women of the capitalist class, so many people pretend like it's men who are the oppressors. That's part of why young men shifted right: they see wealthy families exploit men for profit (especially with military drafts) and then hear insane theories about how it's men's fault. Blame the rich not the men.

[@craigbelesijr]

@@AsifKhan-hf9zyElon go home and stop commenting on stuff bud

[@AshleyBidensBathTime]

@@AsifKhan-hf9zy Totally worth it. He helped save America. What price can be put on freedom of speech?😃

[@methodsocratic]

Wow. If *only* Jon had encouraged this frankness on TWS late last year. Just watch the last several minutes of that episode: it’s a picture-perfect example of people treating this topic as a zero-sum competition between men & women, as if addressing either issue mutually excludes the other.

[@Xcalator35]

Sorry about my ignorance (I'm not american...) but what is TWS? Thanks

[@Altruistic-General]

@@Xcalator35 The weekly show, Jon Stewart's weekly podcast

[@georgejanzen774]

The episode was a bit lackluster, I agree. The stuff they ended up talking about was interesting as well, but it wasn't what they were supposed to talk about.

[@Xcalator35]

@@Altruistic-General Ah ok. Thanks!

[@WorgenDeath]

My thoughts exactly, I was really hopeful when seeing the topic for that episode of the weekly show and came out of it incredibly disappointed, I am really glad that Richard Reeves was asked to come onto the daily show for this interview, it was exactly what I wish the podcast episode had actually touched on.

[@FlyingDwarfman]

I'm curious if his book and/ or other works go more into plausible causes for the decline in ratio of men succeeding in upper secondary and tertiary schools and ratio of men working in primary and secondary education. I wouldn't be surprised if they are highly tied to the declining working conditions for teachers and from there have become a vicious feedback loop. I, myself, was a teacher for years and got pushed out by the combination of non-living income and toxic work environments.

[@prof.jezebel]

In Canada, we used equity hiring to promote male teachers in the younger grades in the 90s so male applicants are chosen over female applicants. Also, in Canada, teachers are well-paid. We improved the ratio somewhat but male teachers just aren't as interested in teaching younger students. And it didn't make a big difference in educational outcomes for young men.

[@valerievaughn9219]

Love this guy!!

[@Studeb]

Great message, Professor Galloway has a lot of similar videos on the subject, he is also visiting the sort of podcasts that need to hear this, so thanks for amplifying it.

[@lightwillprevail]

He is correct, tribalism doesn't work. Time to stop the division and come together as fellow human beings 👍

[@Merriwether-w8k]

He's contributing to tribalism - young men and women face the same job market - men are not bread winners anymore - both are both as it should be

[@P4yn3]

feminism is tribalism

[@ZodyZody]

So refreshing to hear the voice of reason to bring us into a better future!

[@ameetlal3313]

Women's abortion rights - its not due to gender - for and against is mostly a religion based difference

[@kyledrew0416]

Richard Reeves saved my life

[@tipsyt1909]

“Most people can think about two thoughts at once” louder for the people in the back! Honestly the left needs to hear this more than anyone else. It is always a zero sum game for us and it’s cost us entire elections.

[@gridman2742]

When was the last time you even heard the word masculinity without it being attached to the label toxic masculinity?

[@savantx1]

I don’t bring up masculinity or femininity in conversations. Are you going around rating how masculine or feminine people are?

[@gridman2742]

@savantx1 No? The point is that masculinity has inherently been linked to toxicity within left-leaning circles, which is a big component of WHY so many men have shifted towards maga. We can't expect men to want to be on our team if we keep implying they're inherently toxic. Yes, the behaviors of toxic masculinity are extremely problematic, but the terminology needs to be changed.

[@exploringwithk]

I'm in a group that shares examples of wholesome masculinity.

[@michelletheia9853]

@@gridman2742no matter what term gets used it’s going to be twisted, used out of context, and made into something it’s not. No term will survive long, but the term itself is accurate in that it is about masculinity which is toxic. The issue isn’t the phrase, it’s the message and the propaganda

[@dharmakaurkhalsa3923]

Love your interviews Desi. This one is no exception. ❤

[@peteo5704]

She does seem to do a little bit more listening. Why ask an expert to come on, if the host is going to interrupt with an extended exposition of Their Own position? A brief question could have been all that was necessary to address an objection to that the audience might have.

[@olorin4317]

America’s adversaries love it when we are divided against our neighbors and families. We need to love each other as Human beings.

[@Geraint3000]

Your allies don't though.

[@KajSeVai]

24 y/o german male teacher here. I couldn't agree more. I am soo outnumbered in Uni 😂

[@The_ViciousOne]

Hes not wrong... Why even care about solving problems that afflict us all, if you have someone to blame for it right of the bat...?

[@msantos545]

This is an amazing conversation!

[@krislee5343]

Ideally both men and women would be supporting AND speaking up for each other. I feel if more men would speak up on women's issues instead of being silent, it could turn the tables a lot to women doing the same

[@williamcondon7729]

It’s not one before the other. It’s both at the same time.

[@JohnFraser-zc8cu]

Desi crushes interviews, awesome video

[@raatrani38]

Most public educators and mental health professionals are not fairly compensated and require expensive formal degrees which deters a lot of men. Yes, we need more federal initiatives to get more men in education and mental health professions. We ALSO need Red states in particular to STOP DEFUNDING public education and advocating for terrible policies like school “choice” aka privatization and resource reallocation and concentration to wealthy families. And as we have learned Red states and poor states will not do anything unless they are incentivized and mandated to do so.

[@Chosen1_of.the.NONexistent_God]

Toxic masculinity, privileges and white fragility are maybe useful in academic context, but used colloquially they become counterproductive.

[@hefoxed]

Use [internalized] misandry instead of toxic masculinity. It's more useful and less stigmatizing.

[@Hendrixski]

Let's be honest: "toxic masculinity" is not used in its academic form, it's used as an insult. It's an insult based on the gender one was assigned at birth. Calling men "toxic" stops dialog. You can't have meaningful conversations after insults are thrown around. Do not use the term toxic masculinity. Ever. If you want the academic equivalent talk about "internalized misandry" and the hatred of men who dare defy traditional gender roles.

[@elizabethbassett4785]

I agree that demonizing the men, boys and masculinity is not the answer and is an issue I also have with many political liberals. However I think it is ridiculous to say that part of the solution is getting more men into mental health professional jobs and teaching without addressing the REAL issue and that is the decline of men in those professions over the last several decades is MONEY, bottom line. Let’s see how his son feels when he has to buy all of the classroom supplies etc., Or when he realizes he can’t save any money for his retirement because his teacher salary is so low. So low that he has to be an uber eats delivery driver on the weekends, or marry a wealthy woman if he ever wants to have a family. So agreed yes, very important topic but I hope the book offers a more thoughtful and thorough discussion regarding possible strategies to address the serious issues boys and young men are struggling with.

[@prajnachan333]

As a man, I never gave a single thought in my life about "masculinity," and I've done just fine. I am masculine, I don't have to think about it. My mother gave me feminine qualities, too. I live my energy. I don't think about what I do or don't have. I am alive. I don't think I am alive!

[@yin-yang-gal]

Totally agree, and I support your liberated view of yourself. I'm a woman and I clearly have both masculine and feminine qualities. I don't have to think about it either... I seamlessly apply whichever is most effective in any given situation. Its not like life only throws us one kind of experience 😂. We get all kinds of opportunities and experiences, and some are better dealt with through our feminine energy, others through our masculine energy. How is this still such a taboo and edgy subject. Grow up, people! We are both.

[@GremlinRadiation]

Well if it works for you

[@exploringwithk]

As I put it, "I'm just me".

[@naveenh91]

She tried so hard to conjure up every sarcastic comment she could think of and own him, boy did he stand his ground!

[@Support-your-local-team]

What sarcastic comments?

[@greggswentor5883]

Awesome book. We need more conversation re mature masculinity.

[@jjoohhhnn]

If you think about it, mens lib which is what Richard advocates for is entirely in line with feminism. Mens issues (as Richard frames them) are sort of essential for feminism to succeed, because one half of the population still hasn't been liberated from the old system, and will/do try to drag everyone backwards with them. It has always been strange to me there that this dichotomy has arisen.

[@AnitaLichtenberg]

Exactly! While we don't need men to become entirely like women, the fear of any amount of feminity is the biggest obstacle to men's lib, and as a consequence, to women's lib I wish we would stop labeling so many things as masculine or feminine that don't need to be

[@kylehansbrockmann848]

Well this conversation is 10 years too late.

[@TomBeardshaw]

It's never too late, and this conversation was happening 10 years ago... it only just reached a platform where you saw it.

[@frydac]

so, maybe just forget about it? or better late then never?

[@kylehansbrockmann848]

@@frydac whether I think about it or forget it makes no difference

[@kylehansbrockmann848]

@@TomBeardshaw oh, no harm no foul then, those college admission rates will just self correct before the women become infertile

[@edwardsah3]

This was really interesting. I'm glad that they got into some specifics about the problem(s) toward the end. They kind of danced around how to deal with the gendered timeline for brain development. We've seen it in our younger son, who dropped out of high school his senior year, only to return, some six years later, to university where he is absolutely killing it, and where he wants to go into teaching at the college level. I'm glad to have gender equality that can find solutions for all.

[@0920121908250727]

Lot to process here folks. Thanks Desi!

[@orsygodri1155]

I agree wholeheartedly but it feels like we women are asked again to care about both sides and are expected to follow through on it while men rarely are held to the same standards to follow through. This can lead to a lot of division when one side is constantly held to a different standard. Men need to step up more for young men and show them that toxic masculinity is not the way to go. They should be able to feel vulnerable. Heck, look at ads directed at men. It's showing a very one sided image. TV shows and movies too. Society needs to do better to allow men to be soft and feel their feelings without shaming them for it.

[@prof.jezebel]

Agree 100%! And there is a false equivalency suggested here that men not succeeding is as serious an issue as all the oppression and violence women experience. I am concerned about young men, do work on this issue as parent and educator, but am aware of exactly what you point out: women given way too much responsibility and men none.

[@GremlinRadiation]

What are you talking about? Every single gain women have made in the western world has been with assistance and approval of men. For centuries before that, men fought and died to protect the women in their lives. Was there oppression? Of course, most men were oppressed as well. Only in the warped history of a feminist did women achieve their current place in society without help from men who cared about their circumstances. Yep, I remember the great Battle of the Sexes in the 70's where women all across America bravely fought and died for their rights. I support Women's rights but you feminists are a joke.

[@GoodMenstruationAttitude]

Desi's such a great host

[@TheCook80]

Thank you a reasonable logical man. BRAVO SIR, BRAVO!

[@noble_sword64]

I don’t know if he addressed this in his book or not but part of the reason why men are not in teaching positions or enrolled in higher education as much has to do with "male flight" where as the proportion of women in a field increases, men actually move away from it and it then becomes seen as a "woman’s job" - which also leads to devaluing and a decrease in pay for such roles.

[@karlyn132]

Bingo. Imo he missed a few things.

[@moralesjjvideo]

You should read the book. As much as some organizations/industries/ companies were non-welcoming to women, the opposite has been true in the teaching organizations (Unions, districts, etc) and many men. Yes, pay more for teachers.

[@blindman8390]

Oh goodie, still our fault.

[@Merriwether-w8k]

Male flight? WHy do men care what other men think so much?

[@Evan345gdf]

😂😂😂 sure buddy

[@Merriwether-w8k]

WHy not just care about people? People are people - men and women are not that different - no difference in intelligence - stop dividing

[@danaw23]

I just had the same reaction I had when I started reading White Fragility. Thank you for this very important point of view.

[@spiscione]

I like this guy.

[@Martha-q8p1b]

Teachers are not paid enough, which could be why fewer men teach.

[@maddyrosenberg6802]

Precisely. You want to encourage men in a field? Raise salaries. And everyone wins.

[@romabqui]

My kid's first grade teacher makes $115K, more than her dad.

[@FlyingDwarfman]

@@romabqui Where is this?! As someone who had been teaching for years, I can't imagine that being a public school job anywhere in the US. The median pay across the country is significantly less than half that. Even in the highest paying States, teacher salaries will barely push median for all jobs across the country

[@hefoxed]

Men are assumed to be SA-ers/p3dos, that's probably more the issue.

[@TheEvolver311]

​@romabqui so your kid goes to one of the most exclusive private schools in the country because no public school teacher is making that

[@ehhhsteve8582]

Woo, shoutout for Baltimore teachers!

[@msam2357]

I really enjoyed this interview. The combination of humour and “charts” level of detail worked well. I do think one of the things we do as a society that is a disservice to the boys and men is that we don’t consistently hold them accountable. We as a society, including parents, often have the attitude of “boys will be boys“ or “that’s just locker room talk” or even some actual reasons that start to sound like an excuse when we say that boys are growing up later. And with “later” this continues with authorities turning a blind eye to domestic violence (regardless of gender, we know the predominant instigator is male). Whereas with girls, they are often told to be these super performers who can’t let anything escape or they’ll be relegated to the dustbin of society. No pressure! Yes, I know there are parents and community who do hold their sons accountable. Keep doing it! We have to weave that further into the tapestry of our society and our expectations of each other. 🫶

[@prof.jezebel]

Yes! and once again we're being told it is women's responsibility to fix it; that when we call out the toxicity, we make it worse; that we need to make men feel better about themselves, not worse. Poor babies.

[@eliashe1797]

prison population is almost exclusively men, laws deliberately target men, huge swaths of the population consistently stream hatred towards men, in dv cases men are arrested regardless of the situation, men are murdered by police far more, and so on, and so on. all evidence points towards men 'being held accountable', let boys be boys. women on the other hand are not held accountable for their own actions, so much so that people bend over backwards to blame womens poor behavior on men in one form or another. i think you'd do well to listen to people talking about mens issues instead of pretending they dont exist, or pretending that the solutions involve more police and punishment against men.

[@rw9207]

The term "Toxic Masculinity" did not" first appear in 2016... It was coined in the, 'Mythopoetic men's movement' in the 80'S and was outlined in 1990, in the book 'I am John' by Robert Bly !.... I personally have been aware of it since the late 90's! It did NOT "revolve around crime".. it was primarily in reference to the negative aspects of traditional masculinity. The harmful social expectations of the narrow definition of masculinity, forced upon men and how that can lead to violence and drug abuse..... It was about men's health!!

[@prof.jezebel]

Yes! Thank you! It came from a men's movement! The book is Iron John.

[@SpicyMarshmellow3]

He was not talking about the origin of the term. He was talking about when it entered into popular discourse, and his criticism is aimed at the way it's used in popular discourse.

[@rw9207]

@@SpicyMarshmellow3 Thank you Captain obvious.... But, you missed my point. It was in "popular discourse" LONG before 2016 and his definition was incorrect.

[@alexanderthegreat4103]

@@rw9207 I think you missed the point because no it wasn't. Quoting specific examples of its use doesn't mean it was widespread, especially in the pre-internet era. That statement requires a lot more research to justify

[@rw9207]

@@alexanderthegreat4103 well, being someone who adulted through the 90's, I can confirm, yes it was!

[@Starless85]

Awesome to see. Just listened to him on Jordan Harbinger like a month ago.

[@AustinThinker79]

Desi looks kind of uncomfortable with this subject.

[@stacyliles5534]

Great conversation. That coming from a feminist leaning white dude.

[@cloudbullets]

The Will To Change is also another book I’d recommend next to this one.

[@juligrlee556]

Schools and parents need to have emotionally and developmentally appropriate learning pods for children. I was the youngest in my class and was mistreated along the way. My daughter intentionally on my part was the oldest in her class. She graduated at the top of her graduating class, the top of her science classes, math classes etc. from the 5th grade onward. She graduated college with a doctorate in three years with advanced placements from her freshwoman year throughout her academic career.

[@ytjoemoore94]

Pretending to care about people is a scam and it’s gonna take a lot more than this to change my mind

[@johnknight9150]

Ah, but I read a thing from that Jordan Peterson bloke and apparently everyone's wrong! I've no idea what he was saying (there were a lot of long words instead of plain English) but it seemed jolly impressive! Now it's time to start a carnivore diet, that'll sort everything. ;-)

[@anonimushbosh]

There’s toxic masculinity and toxic femininity - and if one’s more prevalent or dangerous than the other I have no idea which. Every time we frame something as one gender vs the other we keep making the same mistakes…

[@Dreamtime_958]

it's 99 to 1, not 50 50.

[@jojojo724]

Nah it's all the patriarchy the oligarchy we live under created under the patriarchy is why everyone doesn't do as well as their parents . But being male doesnt mean you should expect more from life that's the toxic masculinity

[@kidmohair8151]

i do wish that audiences at shows like this, where something important is being discussed, would refrain from applauding, during the discussion. it is incredibly rude... Mr Reeves seems to not be familiar with the "pause for applause" and, on at least 3 occasions, was drowned out by hooting and applause. Ms Lydic knows it's going to happen, so she stopped trying to talk until she could top it. (i also hope there isn't a floor manager just off camera with their finger on the button for the applause sign)

[@tylerbailey9329]

It needs to be better-communicated that fighting the patriarchy helps everyone

[@dkoli]

Nah the imaginary patriarchy is the problem

[@tv19463]

Or fighting the hierarchy

[@prof.jezebel]

feminists have been making this point for decades

[@uzul7742]

Care to explain how „fighting the patriarchy“ helps these boys?

[@GremlinRadiation]

Care to start?

[@ModernConversations]

“From your lips to God’s ears.” I found that to be incredibly inscrutable.

[@bradenhazle4378]

It's a very common idiom in the south and midwest. It just means I hope it comes true.

[@ModernConversations]

@@bradenhazle4378 Thanks! : )

[@mfanakithi2002]

Love him

[@ChicoCabra]

As a man, although I feel his heart is in the right place, I cringed after hearing his stances on what is understood as toxic masculinity and the performance gap between girls and boys at school. He seems to focus only on biology, which isn't the case. I didn't agree with his observations of people becoming teachers either, I think he's missing the bigger picture. Still cool to hear these well intentioned voices on mainstream tv, though.

[@Sitbear]

The fact that you have to preemptively qualify a conversation about men by talking first about women just demonstrates how wide the empathy gap is and how much democrats and feminists have abandoned men.

[@Halauris]

Exactly.

[@masonc8140]

Because the two things are linked. The current identity crisis in Men is directly linked to sexism towards women and how men view women. Why can't boys look up to their mothers or sisters? Girls are allowed to look up to their fathers. Why are "feminine" traits viewed as bad in men? Men should be free to be themselves and not be bullied by other men (or sometimes women) into fitting into the same narrow box of what they think "masculinity" is.

[@Commentator488]

Men never supported feminism. This is the internet, go and see for yourself what men think about feminism. Men are the ones who don’t want to accept feminism and are advocating for patriarchy. In a patriarchy, men need to be strong and masculine and definitely not weak, feminists fight against that narrative for too long, but if a man doesn’t want to change that, there’s no amount of feminism who can help them.

[@harrisonjay-l5v]

I've been hearing the phrase 'toxic masculinity' for decades. almost always uttered by women. it's always interesting to ask a woman -- 'so who raised these men?'

[@prof.jezebel]

So it is women's fault these men are toxic? Because it is their job to raise everyone? Wow. And you really can't see the misogyny in your position?

[@GremlinRadiation]

Single mom

[@prof.jezebel]

@@GremlinRadiation The phrase was invented by Robert Bly, who started a men's movement in the 80s. So women are to blame for raising toxic boys and to blame for all men's issues because of calling them toxic. Got it. Yeah, we women are responsible for everything and you guys don't have any accountability.

[@LanceCorporalKitty]

@@GremlinRadiation not always a single mom. And teh mom being unattached to the father shouldn't mean the father is not fathering the son (although i do aknowledge that that does happen due to irrconcilable differences between the parents). Often its traumatised parents who are not focussed on the mental health or developmental behaviour of their sons.

[@danielryan9276]

We are all human equally entitled to rise together.

[@runna-x5h]

Lol yeah,this is the guy that definitely understands masculinity

[@ethor7676]

This is really great.

[@uncan]

Interesting interview. Not sure I buy the girls are better at/more mature than boys and girls used to be kept down explanation for why their educational success has reversed in the last 20/30 years, but at least he acknowledges that's not his expertise.

[@tclm]

1:50 no way. His theory on why women don’t talk about it is way off. In addition to not wanting to center the discussion on men, women who do talk about men are told to stay in our lane. Men can talk for themselves.

[@Halauris]

I've never heard that.

[@hefoxed]

We need women to talk about men's issues as women are more likely to listen to other women.

[@Commentator488]

@@hefoxed We need more men to promote feminism than for the same reason

[@P4yn3]

Richard gets it, if we had more people like this in the democrat party I MIGHT vote blue.

[@andrewstevenson118]

Swing voters win elections. Your vote is very important. 🙂

[@FuinFirith]

And what would it take to get you to call the party by its actual name, my friend? 😛

[@timothyha2854]

I’ll never vote blue again. Joe Biden was my last ever democrat I vote for. These people don’t care about us, they care about the billionaires and the social Justice movements. Not real people working hard jobs

[@P4yn3]

@@FuinFirith funding of the police, low crime, a strong economy, low inflation, wage growth 😛

[@timothyha2854]

Joe Biden is the last democrat I’ll ever vote for. I’ve seen what these people do, and who they serve

[@Blackwing_Earth-2_]

❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@Mintpepperoni]

What's wrong with becoming "more like your sister"? Why shouldn't boys see girls and women as role models too?

[@davidpeet2109]

It’s not about role models. Anyone can be a role model for anyone. “Be more like your sister” implies that the male is a defective female, just as the reverse “women need to be more like men” implies that the female is a defective male

[@DGas-rg1pk]

The same thing that's wrong with being "more like your grandfather." Don't cherrypick the quote.

[@Rowsy91]

Lots lol

[@dkoli]

You're part of the problem

[@GremlinRadiation]

Everything. She needs to be "more like her brother"

[@alexrice2302]

Let him mansplain…. I’m a feminist and I understand this….

[@RobVespa]

Aside: Sadly, "most people" refers to a percentage of less than half the population (read - start with less than half and then make that number smaller).

[@ericthompson3982]

Correct, sir. Correct.

[@justincastillogayray]

Donald had nothing to offer young men but fear.

[@MatthewTheWanderer]

Exactly! There is NO legitimate reason for anyone, including men, to have ever voted for Trump!

[@GremlinRadiation]

Didn't vote for him, but he doesn't call them trash.

[@gameslayer3343]

Kamal had nothing to offer but more taxes, DEI, and more suppression of men’s issues

[@OlTrev]

He's right on a lot but he falls into the trap a lot of people are right now in that he seems to fundamentally misunderstand the term "toxic masculinity" which is odd for someone who has just wrote a book on men. Toxic masculinity is ONLY referring to those aspects of masculinity that ARE toxic, it does not mean that all masculinity is toxic. Some of the toxic aspects of masculinity are automatically thinking lesser of women because they're women, or thinking you get to make all the decisions because you make more money, or, even worse, feel emasculated when you don't make more money because that's all you've been told a man is worth.

[@bradenhazle4378]

No that's exactly what he points out that it has expanded to anything masculine which is wrong and it's best to just not use it. I'd say just call it toxic behavior.

[@SpicyMarshmellow3]

This is called a motte and bailey. Be honest about how the term is used in popular discourse. You are describing the academic definition. The academic definition is not how the term is being used 90% of the time it is encountered in the wild.