The 4 Squares Review - Dice Realms

[@natson6138]

There's a recent designer diary up on BGG that goes into the background of the choices made, including the graphical look. It's a good read.

[@wishmeheaven]

But what will save you from a bad roll..?

[@Penceos]

Really enjoying this one - in contrast to some of the comments, I've seen a lot of variability not just from the set-ups, but from the initial fate die roll sending the game in different directions that you wouldn't necessarily see from the opening turns in a game of Dominion. We've sat down to play this four times, but every time we end up playing 3, 4, 5 games in a row.

[@SILVERF0X13]

Sounds like this is a perfect choice for me. I really love the dice upgrading of Dice Forge and was looking for a game with that mechanic that had a little more to it (and that lasts a little longer)

[@jimgrant9081]

It's great to hear the different opinions and perceptions! I'm very happy to see all these 4 Square reviews.

[@benseipert2578]

Having just played this a couple times yesterday, I was pleasantly surprised. There was fun decisions to be made and the game arc creates fantastic tension. And in regards to the cost, I find the content and variability comparable to dominion plus an expansion or two, which would be a similar price point (not to mention I don’t need to buy card sleeves for this)

[@gregbroxterman]

Another great vid that really emphasizes the strengths of the 4squares format.. i've been loving this game, and getting mixed reviews from people I've played with.. but pretty much all the strengths and weaknesses are well represented here! This game can end up being a hard hit or hard miss for many, but has the solid foundation that many will respect at least.. thus the higher minimum rating here. great stuff.

[@mrbastos]

Looking forward to playing this one. Getting everything sorted and into trays is taking me a while.

[@diggidydiggidy]

Wendy, love your opinions in these reviews, especially as a counterpoint to the others. Keep up the excellent work.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

great review guys!! so excited for more people to play this

[@jeremyfrost3127]

It’s a phenomenal game. The fact that the game can end three ways is brilliant precisely because players have agency over those things and it allows the game to shape radically different experiences for the players depending on what they choose to do strategically. This is not just a “dice game”. New players seem to universally undervalue the “set a die” token: It’s $4 and you can literally just force your combo to happen on the next turn. Like all of Tom Lehman’s games, the best strategy will win 99% of the time, despite the fact that it’s dice. The price is definitely high… but this is a game that can easily get played hundreds of times with so much variability so the price/play is actually very low.

[@elqord.1118]

I don’t think the game creates a very interesting decision space. Yes, it allows you to do so many things but it all feels rather samey.

[@siejaiz]

It's good but I don't think it touches RtfG or Dominion for me

[@jeremyfrost3127]

@@elqord.1118 you haven't played many games of it then. The 5 tiles selected for each game combined with the 5 basic faces and the three end-game conditions make a huge decision space every game.

[@jeremyfrost3127]

@@siejaiz Fair. Those are titans of the industry. Dice Realms to me is an equivalent design, though. Maybe better than Dominion even because of the three end-game conditions.

[@KMReviews]

I’d like to see this custom dice mechanic added to other games. A Cubitos style game where you can buy more dice or upgrade the dice. Or dice thrones where you could upgrade your dice to be better at attacking. Etc.

[@notsaved]

try Roll for the Galaxy with the Rivalry expansions

[@alexandrevaz-filion783]

Dice forge.

[@adamholt5395]

The price is the real deterrent for me for picking this one up. I like Dice Forge. I like the idea of swapping out faces on dice and upgrading them. However, $90 for a game that doesn't look that great isn't too appealing to me, atm.

[@bonehead797]

The price is what's keeping me from getting it also.

[@ericlosiewicz519]

Would have liked to know more about how this compares to Dice Forge with the expansion, as well as games like Dice Throne and Space Base. I realize Dice Forge is the most directly comparable due to the customizeable dice, but would be interested how this stacks up against other dice based engine building games.

[@Gustave154]

The customizable dice is the only similarity between Dice Forge and Dice Realms. Simply put, Dice Realms is Dominion The Dice Game.

[@paulnorthey6712]

9.5 for the lively discussion. Wendy and Chris combination fantastic balance to Tom and Roy. this is Dice Tower at its best, lively, engaged informative talking about a great designer with enthusiasm and intelligence. Again Nice balance of views.

[@stefan85ge]

The game sounds interesting. I am looking forward to test it. Could you say how long the game is?

[@peterpan444]

30-45min if you don't have a heavy AP prone player.

[@stefan85ge]

@@peterpan444 that sounds great and is a huge pro for me.

[@RheaOfLief]

Is there a playlist with all the 4 Square reviews? The only one I can find has just 14 videos in it. I really like this format.

[@bubblepipemedia3414]

I know it’s often said that “in dominion I buy a card I know I can use it” but that’s not true. There’s a limit on the cards you can play, so it might be that you draw that card at the same time as another card you bought and.. can’t play it. There’s also plenty of attack cards that force you to discard a card from the top of your deck or worse, return it, etc. other deck builders yea, they might be a guarantee. But if you keep referencing Dominion while saying that I just don’t know how accurate I feel it is. But I agree that it more true than not true. You will absolutely usually get to get to that card. It’s true in this game as well, but not without spending a resource.

[@rabidpickle]

Price seems like it will be prohibitive for many. Game also seems quite light compared to how fiddly it will be. Thanks for the review!

[@WillColton0]

I don't think this game is really "light". Would you consider Dominion or Race for the Galaxy light? Just because it is quick and has randomness does not necessarily make it light imo.

[@siejaiz]

It's not too fiddly, changing the dice faces is kinda fun

[@CritsHappen]

I guess everyone has forgotten Rattlebones, which used these dice originally, also from Rio...

[@XShrike0]

Didn't Tom mention Rattlebones at the start?

[@CritsHappen]

@@XShrike0 More so about the comments than the video itself :)

[@XShrike0]

Did I miss where they explained why you keep track of your rerolls "per turn"? Are you only allowed to do 10 upgrades per turn? Is it just a tally to see how many the dice give you and then you spend them?

[@ericruhland726]

I don't think you are supposed to track the number of rerolls per turn. not sure what you mean by that. No limit to number of upgrades. It's just there to help keep track.

[@masblas3379]

Definitely another one I'm gonna need to try before I buy. Loved the look of the box, intriguing, mysterious, little worlds on the sides of a cube. Unfortunately, looking at the components, it was a complete let down. I'm definitely still intrigued but hopefully the game play will overcome my disappointment with the aesthetics.

[@unlimitedrabbit]

Please do The 4 Squares Review Glen More II: Chronicles. 🥃

[@Lordjunon]

What makes this different than dice forge outside having more than 2 dice?

[@bjornspindel6249]

It's ugly and has 'take that'

[@nshaw1299]

I'm at the 13 min. mark of the video and still waiting for 'Dice Forge' to even be mentioned... meanwhile, 'Comparing to Dominion' happened twice already. I'm wondering though if the dice face change mechanics is better.

[@Penceos]

About 20 plays of Dice Realms (and 5 plays of Dice Forge) here. In Dice Realms you spend a lot of time and energy directly fussing around with your dice - how many dice you have, but also how many rerolls you have, whether you invest points into cross-grading to a different color of die face versus upgrading an existing one, etc. You end up with considerably more opportunities to modify your dice than you do in Dice Forge, and it's also possible to modify your dice in such a way that stalls your engine or just makes it mis-fire, which doesn't really happen in Dice Forge.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

The dice in Dice Realms is literally the game unlike in Dice Forge where the dice is part of the game.

[@nshaw1299]

26:05 finally :-) Guys, if it's such an obvious question to be asked, just say at the beginning you'll mention 'Dice Forge' towards the end... it was like 26 minutes of 'Do you guys not remember the only well known game where you physically customize dice faces?'

[@robinett74]

I wonder if we will see some designer attempt to make the equivalent to what Thunderstone is to Dominion. A similar game, but more thematic with an exciting theme. Because this theme looks boring as heck! But the game seems very fun.

[@Straddllw]

Well I for one prefer Dominion over Thunderstone. Also Hansa Teutonica, Concordia, Orleans etc … are some of my favourite games ever. This game looks really great and have great aesthetics for me.

[@Gustave154]

Get AEG on this Thunderstone Quest is great

[@booma_]

looks like roll for the galaxy 3rd expansion .

[@dragonlance6027]

What about durability of the dice faces?

[@missitheachievementhuntres560]

I don’t have played this one a ton but Rattlebones which uses the same dice I have played so much over the years since it’s release and I don’t have any problem with the durability of the dice.

[@thefriendlessgamer8552]

There was a travel dice game where the customizable faces first came from cant remember the name sadly. lego has done this as well and dice forge among others. I looked into it because I would not have been surprised if lego somehow owned the copyright some how for that mechanism when I was thinking of designing a game with it.

[@jean-christopherioux3546]

Dice forge is an obvious exemple that custom dice face can look good, even tho those dice seems to roll better

[@ski6913]

I really have to wonder if Tom or Roy would be as enthusiastic about this one if he had to shell out the $100+ from his own pocket. I think it’s really easy to praise a game just on its merits and apart from context, but I’d be interested to know if they think it’s *so* good that it’s worth spending 2-3 games’ worth of price.

[@arcanevision1]

They mention the price, but price is a very personal thing, what is expensive for one person isn't for another.

[@NATOnova]

love hearing the diversity of opinions on 4 squares review's. would be great to hear even more people's opinions, like 6 or so, IMO

[@RickKoeppen]

Dice Realms has been on my BGG wishlist for a while. I picked up the box in my FLGS and felt a certain way. I started watching this review, and continued to get that same feeling. The iconography, the look of the faces, it really does bother me. Dice Forge is one of my favorite games of all time, so that with some more variety here, I was really hyped for it. But the look, the iconography, I'm just not ready to pull the trigger yet. I'm not looking forward to explaining the die faces when I teach it. I'm not looking forward to learning all the faces myself, even. I think I'm going to stick with Dice Forge for a while.

[@hewhoyawns315]

Honestly, I feel like it’s a real hit for this game that its competitor is dice forge. I have not played dice realms, so I’m only speaking about aesthetics here, but dice forge is just one of most slick, pretty, and elegant games I’ve ever seen. Dice realms already looks lackluster, but when you compare it to dice forge it just feels like there’s not a shred of inspiration or imagination in the design of this game.

[@johnnovotny5074]

Love the 4 Squares reviews!

[@foyoGames]

D30 vs D20 Spindown Dice: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4rKfaOZdtyLj7c

[@ski6913]

I watched a full playthrough of this a little bit ago, and I was having a hard time articulating my fears about it, but I think you hit the nail on the head: it feels like a game that’s about 5 years too late. There are just too many other games where you roll dice, get stuff, and make upgrades (Space Base really stands out to me)…I just don’t need to spend $100+ on this game when I can get one that does the same thing and looks better for half the price.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

Space Base doesn't have customizable dice though? I feel like a better comparison would be Dice Forge but even then Dice Realms has more dice and faces to play with. Not to mention it plays really fast!

[@benjaminjohnson8377]

No Wheat = Defeat #Catanlove

[@soogymoogi]

Very cool idea and sounds fun but oh god, the iconography is so lackluster!! Idk if it's some kind of production limitation but it seems like they could've used a better graphic designer...

[@ptlehmann]

It's a production limitation: 3 spot colors (including black) is all the printing technology can do. If I could do 4-color process colors, everything would look much different. However, the icons really do work smoothly in practice -- people roll 2-5 dice with all sorts of different faces and rarely have to look anything up after the first round or two of play.

[@soogymoogi]

@@ptlehmann thanks for the insight! I would've made the icons look different myself but I am no graphic designer or publisher lol.

[@carmanragatz2995]

I admit I haven’t played this game yet, but it doesn’t look enticing to me…not for $90!!! If this was only $30-$40, maybe. Otherwise, this looks like Dice Forge plus Dominion. Honestly, contrary to popular opinion, I actually don’t care for Dominion. There are many other deck, dice or bag building games out there that I would much rather play if I’m in the mood for that style of game. Since Dominion doesn’t excite me, the only other draw I see is the Dice Forge aspect of the game which is much cheaper (and I already own). So, if someone invited me to play and there was no other style of game being played that I prefer, then I might play it. Otherwise, this game does not look all that interesting to me. There are plenty of other games out there that I would much rather play and there is NO WAY I would drop that much money on this type of game!

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Hmmmm, not feeling it, ill try it if ill see it, but it does feel like it needed to release years ago both in mechanics and in looks. Literally squeaks out a seal of excellence purely based on half a mark from one person?

[@AkmalGameAtion]

well playtesters were playing the game back in 2017 so there's something

[@Calistake047]

I've owned Dice Forge for years and really enjoyed my time with it, although the sheer gameplay does ultimately come down to the gimmick of customizing dice. So now I'm gonna tread carefully before I get into another pop-that-face-out game just for the fun of it. Also I agree with Tom that this one looks postively dreadful. Cover's so pretty, and that's what we get in the box?

[@sexagesimalian]

I found it amusing that 2 of their complaints against Dice Realms:(aesthetics and game end trigger) do not exist in Dice Forge (which looks very nice and has a fixed number of turns).

[@thereal4579]

If you add the expansion to Dice forge the system is pretty robust and modular. With that and the beautiful nature of the Dice Forge I am happy with staying with it over this game. Great video, great points. Appreciate the 4 square reviews.

[@PalladiumOne]

Hmmm I think I’ll stick to Quacks for my ‘random upgrades to show up’ vibes (which seems to be the exiting part for me here). It’s cheaper and more thematic. Great review, was curious about this game!

[@keyboardcruiser1799]

Having played both this and quacks, the decision space in quacks is basically nil in comparison to dice realms. Its not just about the upgrades, but also rerolls, tokens to buy, attacks to execute or defend against, dice to expand, etc. I understand where you are coming from, but random upgrades showing up is not a fair point to compare the two on. It's a bit of an apples and pears comparison, as there's a lot more luck mitigation and decision making in dice realms .

[@AkmalGameAtion]

This is not a game of random luck. Yes you roll dice but there are lots of ways to mitigate luck like reroll tokens or even paying money to get the die face you are looking for. Once you get the engine rolling it gets really combo-ey fun!

[@Footrot13]

Not played yet but just on the rules explanation my brain started screaming- why can grain role over from round to round without spoiling but money is temporary?

[@ptlehmann]

Grain is quite stable from 1 year to the next (that's why granaries work) while banks are just getting going in medieval times and coins weren't used that much. Coins represent the *flow* of goods.

[@lufia22]

This looks like a nightmare to put away. Seems like something I'd rather play on board game arena.

[@niczaiser2341]

I feel like Wendy is more expressive and interjective when Camilla is not on with her... They are both awesome, just interesting dynamics.

[@BlimpMcGee]

Woah what an eyesore

[@vascariz69]

Would love them to team up with Awakened Realms for a deluxe version.

[@siejaiz]

Don't know if it needs it... It would be like dominion with better art, not really the point as it is pretty themeless

[@ArmadilloAl]

I was briefly interested, but I'm really not sure that "Dominion-adjacent, but three times the price of Dominion" is the pitch that's going to get me to buy a game.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

Well i would see the amount of content in the box is like buying Dominion with at least 2 expansions. And with customizable dice!

[@boardgameasmr868]

Been looking forward to this one. I really do think a truly great game can be made with this mechanism, but I guess that wait continues.

[@jhowd78]

I wish I liked this one as much as they did. Played it a good 5 times or more. 130$ later, it was a miss unfortunately. Wish I was at the table to discuss. Definitely some positives in there. Liked the idea which is why I spent the money.

[@BenBoersma]

Sounds like an interesting game, but the visuals make it look like a prototype and really turn me off. When Dice Forge's dice faces look so much more engaging, there was really no excuse to make it look this spartan. It might be an amazing game, but the visuals will sadly hold it back in a big way. :(

[@keyboardcruiser1799]

The visuals actually help a lot to understand what is happening at a glance. You can see the tiles of the game for the art corresponding to the die. That art is really quite good, but it isnt covered in this review. Check Rahdo's thoughts on it.

[@BenBoersma]

@@keyboardcruiser1799 while I agree that it is very easy to follow what is going on with the die faces, you can also with dice Forge. I suppose I'm suggesting that the clarity could largely be kept whilst still improving the appearance.

[@ptlehmann]

@@BenBoersma Unfortunately, the technical limits of the dice manufacturer was 3 spot colors, including black. So, I went for clarity, requiring little lookup.

[@BenBoersma]

@@ptlehmann that makes sense and is logical under those circumstances. It is still a shame, but I understand the decision now

[@rfcesq5474]

I watched this whole review, and I have scant idea what the game is about. Are you a king? A farmer? There’s combat and wheat is what I got. Roy said there was no theme, but was there even an attempt at one?

[@siejaiz]

Probably not... Same theme as Dominion, you have a kingdom and make choices

[@ptlehmann]

I discuss the setting and theme in some detail in my designer preview on BGG. But, theme is one of those words that people use in many different ways to mean many different things. One person's theme that is well integrated with mechanics is another person's "pasted on theme". YMMV.

[@johnnovotny5074]

You should do a 4 Squares with Sam Healy and Eric Summerer through a Zoom call.

[@jasonsmith1133]

This doesn’t seem that fun to me but I would try it to be proven wrong.

[@chrisfong8929]

This graphic design is very off putting. It looks like the icons were designed by a mathematician instead of an artist. Rio Grande is targeting a specific audience which I am just not in.

[@JosephFlemming]

Wow the box art is in serious incongruence to the basic and stark dice and symbols! Not enthused about that.

[@aarondowning5791]

Not worth the cost.

[@retroarcadefan]

Game looks dreadfully dull. Hope to find someone else that has it to see if the gameplay can overcome this. Also hoping that the sweet spot isn't two players.

[@Penceos]

Gameplay is mostly simultaneous, with the exception of attack die faces. In setups with no attacks, we've found 2p games are just as quick as multiplayer games. In the video, Tom mentions 20% of the setup tiles have attack die faces and he'd prefer to play with one at most - 5/35 of the tiles in the bag are attack tiles, and the setup rules already enforce a maximum of one per game (and of course you can just leave them out) Edit: max 2 per game with some specific limitations, I just re-read the setup rules more carefully!

[@AkmalGameAtion]

Its really fine to play this with more players. Just don't play with the attack tiles as it will slow down the game a bit.

[@dddmmm21]

All the ratings seemed higher than each following explanation seemed to warrant.

[@thecaryou]

This should have been a part of a game like an engine for a bigger game. Like deckbuilding added to larger games.

[@elqord.1118]

I’m waiting for Tom Lehmann to deliver another timeless classic with endless replayability aka Race for the Galaxy. I see this one has some clever stuff going on but overall I doubt it will stand the test of time the way Race did.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

He already did with Res Arcana and i feel like this game will too. Alot of game in one box and honestly ripe for expansions too.

[@siejaiz]

We will see, New Frontiers and RtfG Xeno were supposed to get an expansion for a while now.

[@GivenToFly201]

@@siejaiz race or roll?

[@JonoNZBoardGamer]

Dice upgrading in Dice Realms seems interesting but for the overall gameplay I think I'll stick with Dice Forge.

[@VaultBoy13]

Dice Forge didn't win me over. I can't see a bland, beige gamey-er version fairing any better. But, maybe this'll help to start a trend of more games using these dice. It'd be so interesting for dungeon crawlers and troops-on-a-map games to use dice like these. It would be so cool to upgrade your barbarian by upgrading your dice or to upgrade your tech in combat in a troops-on-a-map game with these dice.

[@johnathanrhoades7751]

If this looked like Dice Forge, I would be more interested. I know that's shallow and silly but...yeah. I'd rather play a deck builder I think.

[@arcubal]

OMG, this must be the dryest component designs ever! I literally had to skip the explanation, cuz it was soooooo tedious. Sorry, Tom, this is not your fault. This is one incredibly dull looking game. What a box cover-to-component disconnect!

[@Legitster]

I love Lehmann games, but I was thoroughly unimpressed by the fiddliness/fun ratio of this same mechanic in Dice Forge. When it comes to "Dominion, but for dice" it will need to unseat Cubitos for me.

[@leebrown1352]

Heads up some of this is response to your comparison to Cubitos but its also just general analysis of the game. The levels of variance with the dice in Cubitos and this game are pretty different. Little in the way of dice manipulation in Cubitos and even though you are rolling buckets of dice sometimes. The probability curve doesn't flatten out all that much because a lot of those dice have very few hit faces. It flattens out enough to minimise frustrating ealry bust. But not so much in terms of enabling engine building for me. There are some set ups like the 2nd recommended where you need to combo certain dice colours together. It gives it a bigger sense of engine building but it's very awkward to achieve those combos for the majority of the game. Then with the pacing of the game you don't always get to see the engine run for very long either. The point at where you can start to achieve the combo somewhat consistently. The game ends very abruptly. PS I really like Cubitos. Now you can make the same arguments for DR vis-a-vis the game ending before you get to run your engine. But I find this less of an issue because actually the game encourages tactical shifts with side grading and the pacing of the game is similarly, but more concisously driven by player decisions. You can get your engine running ealry with side grades in lieu of upgrades. Side grading is also in a sense luck mitigation which Roy touched on. Big point combos can also be garunteed with set faces and many combos are enabled by powerful rereoll effect type die that themselves increase the odds of rolling into the faces that they combo with. Push come to shove. They also still give points for their upgrade pips also. Considering how to spread your die effects to promote combos or hit money to buy additional dice is one of my favourite decisions in the game. And that's a unique property to customisable die. I'm not sure how it compares with Forge or RftG. But I really like it here. I agree with the comments that ealry games if the pools exhaust early it can be a bit disappointing. But in the long term its one of the more fascinating aspects of the game. I've played a bunch with just the basic set up trying to develop a solo and still not bored of it. I've tried one other recommended setup. Not every game is amazing. Sometimes its hard to pinpoint mistakes to help improve your gameplay. The big decisions get lost amongst the multitude of seemingly trivial choices you have have make. But I think all of the flaws are forgivable because of the playtime and downright moreishness. And most importantly because the depth is there. The game feels like and 8 / 8.5 in the moment buts there's a lot to explore and I'm thinking about it a lot. I can see it going up.

[@Legitster]

​@@leebrown1352 Yeah, but that's the thing that worries me. I love Lehmann's many other engine building games. But I'm not sure if it will be a better engine builder than those, and the dice building doesn't offer me enough novelty. My problem with Dice Forge was that if every roll gave you something, it robbed the roll of excitement. So I love the blank face distribution in Cubitos. And the idea of changing a single face and it maybe never showing up seems deeply unsatisfying. At least in Cubitos the die is always in your decision space once you buy it. And I love rolling lots of dice! So changeable faces addresses a problem I don't really have. I'm willing to give Dice Realms a try - again I generally love Lehmann games. But at the price point I will hope one of my friends buys it.

[@MrRockapoodle72]

This looks like it would pretty fun, i love skillfull randomness which this feels like and I think my friend group would like it... but 80 bucks is the cheapest out there and thats way more than I want to spend on a dice game. Ill wait for the price to tank to maybe 50 bucks tops

[@Breyfunk]

This game looks excellent, but the price seems a wee bit too high to justify buying it right now.

[@notsaved]

meh, overwrought and actually fits very poorly with theme... also too many components for zero table presence. Enjoyed the personalizable dice in Roll for the Galaxy, but I don't think this keeps an entire game afloat on its own. Seems like a lot of effort and production to basically push your luck

[@DannyvanHolten]

I keep hearing Dominion. That basically reduces my interest in the game to 0 :( Especially for this price point

[@non-alphagamer3618]

This is it?? I see it for about $90 everywhere. This is a $30 game, at best.

[@leebrown1352]

Dont be ridiculous. Its expensive yes. And besides those tiles, not very pretty. But purely on value of components that's just not true. Gameplay content wise. The main comparison being made with Dominion. This effectively has multiple expansions in the core box.

[@AkmalGameAtion]

You underestimate how much game there is in the box and how expensive those die faces are.

[@DuGStp]

I’d try it, but ain’t no one got time for ugly games

[@boardgamehappy5982]

I will pass. Dice forge plus