Wyrmspan Review: The Early Bird Begets The Wyrmspan

[@tyswu]

Did dragons kill Zee's parents or something?

[@devinkerr5474]

There are a few times I saw Zee starring at that box like it wronged him

[@timothyyoung3193]

The irony of three grown adults who make a living discussing games about wizards, robots, aliens and the like, sitting down to discuss the finer points of a boardgame about dragons and coming to the conclusion that said game is too nerdy because it takes its subject matter too seriously is just too rich. Sorry guys.... I love you, love your show, been a fan since the early days, but.... I mean, are you listening to what you're saying?? Lol😂

[@juanpablopagan9763]

Well said!

[@c.w.2000]

I see your point, and I do think Zee was too harsh on nerds because to many other people he is also that group. However, my takeaway was the gripe was that there were detailed “facts” about the dragons as if they were real like the birds in Wingspan. As I think Zee said, that is odd for a non-role playing game, and it is a lot of work and cost for something that doesn’t really mean much to the gameplay in this game. So, if there is a nerd hierarchy, or at least distinction, I can see that difference.

[@tehbige73]

@@c.w.2000 Its just a different type of nerdiness. Fantasy field guides and bestiaries have been around for a long time as well as additional info about characters in board games. Some people really appreciate fluff and its extremely hypocritical to bash on something like that in what is already a nerdy hobby. It would be one thing if Zee just said it wasn't to his taste, Marvel games are the same for a lot of people currently and can be actively off putting, but he showed actual vitriol toward not only the idea of the field guide but the people who might enjoy it. I normally like to hear Zee's opinion but this wasn't a good look for him.

[@lastburning]

You're not listening to what they're saying. "This is not an RPG. I don't need that!" The facts are not interesting and it's a light card game. In an RPG, bestiary facts are important to gameplay.

[@Szurumbur]

Yeah, I think their point is not that the dragons are nerdy. It's that a booklet with facts about real birds and "facts" about dragons are two very different things. And that the second treats audience like people who dress up in dragon costumes for a board game. Let me illustrate by using Tom-speak: - The House Sparrow can swim when it needs to for survival. While the longevity record for a House Sparrow is over 13 years old, the survival rate for the young of each year is less than 25%. - The Flubaka Dragon eats a ton of Strutulla fruits a day. He often fights with Plaplapla Dragon, because Tullius wyrm uses Katchalla pheromones to make it aggressive. The second one is just gibberish that is absolutely meaningless. It might be cool for a RPG, but the effort writing all those random things should be spent in other areas that are actually relevant to the board game.

[@TheBraveExalted]

The dragon lore book, as a life long nerd, is genuinely one of my favorite additions to this game. It’s something they absolutely didn’t need to do; but speaks volumes that they put in that extra bit of effort to make the dragons feel real and fleshed out, like they’re a part of a living world and not just some fantastical beast from a fairy tale.

[@VoidVerification]

Considering how much of a sourpuss Zee was on the theme of the game and still giving it an 8 speaks volumes for me how good this game seems to be mechanically. I love dragons, I loved Wingspan. Instant buy for me.

[@kevinmace]

He’s just playing a character he created. He doesn’t believe what he says.

[@KissellMissile]

​@@kevinmacethat's cynical

[@windbane69]

Does Zee wear a cultist robe when playing Death May Die? Im still baffled at the nerd bashing.

[@MsGinahidesout]

Yeah.i suddenly felt like I was back in school being made fun of 😢

[@windbane69]

Very strange to me bashing people who like dragons at the end. Very unwelcoming statement. My wife and I love dragons, but we dont have to dress up to play the game. And whats wrong with being nerdy about dragons, anyway?

[@darrenkisgen3148]

I didn’t think Zee was bashing people who like dragons. I love dragons and was not bothered at all by their comments. The point is, the “lore” booklet seemed wasteful and out of place in a game like this. Makes sense. And I too am not wild about the dragon art. At least 20 other games I own with dragons that I would recommend for someone who loves dragons.

[@JasperHayward]

He's just joking around

[@windbane69]

@@JasperHayward he definitely does not sound or look like he's joking

[@pokefrosch617]

Are u guys jetlagged? Or did you record this a 4am? The vibe is really unusual in this review.

[@12345678abracadabra]

Sometimes a bad game just sucks the life out of you.

[@Julian_t_x]

Pretty sure they filmed this right after the DT Cruise. Those convention type events are hella exhausting, especially if you're the organizers

[@JulietMcArthur]

@@12345678abracadabra agreed, but they liked this game?

[@KyussTheWalkingWorm]

@@12345678abracadabra Yeah, the game they gave an average rating of 8/10 in spite of all their complaints sure seems to have impacted them 🙄

[@lajeit]

Camilla didn't get the memo about the beige hat

[@Ribbit-mx1sd]

Can't believe they spent the first 7 minutes just bashing the art and the extra lorebook 😂The art in this game is GORGEOUS! Rambling on and on about how the art doesn't work for you and you can't quite figure out why... just say you don't like the style and move on lol. I knew the review was going to be good when the first complaint was about having cardboard resources... like every other game in existence

[@nickbekaert7036]

The art is💩

[@curtislinden9297]

I enjoyed this review - it was honest and everybody let each other have their opinions on theme and marketing strategy, while objectively reviewing the game mechanics. Kudos to Tom for taking it in stride when he clearly disagreed, as well to Camilla and Zee for not holding back at all

[@nerdyjawsh]

Jamey mentioned that dinospan was almost what they picked. Maybe you guys would of liked that theme better, lol I know I would have. However, I love dragons as well and am super stoked for this! I do believe dinosaurs would have gone over better. They are real so you can still give facts about them, and it would not feel weird. Also, wingspan did so well because so many non-gamers bought it because of the theme. You don't have to be a "nerd" to like birds. That would be the same with dinosaurs, everyone likes dinosaurs not just nerds.

[@Naru-Maki]

Dinospan would have made much more sense and definitely would have catered to more fans. Maybe a possible "kids" version future theme like they did with 'my lil everdel', 'dragomino', 'my first Carcassonne ' etc. Especially for non-heavy gamers who like the idea of this engine building game it's trying to give.

[@CresentSoul]

Oh that sounds so much better! It would’ve have way more variety. Prob would sell more too. That’s a shame 😢

[@CresentSoul]

Also lot of birds are derived from dinosaurs. Would make more sense 🦖

[@draco949]

I love dragons, but not this fey-esque feel to the game

I hope they still make a dino version, maybe a kid friendly version. My kids would go crazy for it

[@Why-Ron75]

21:02 - Tom: "I'll play with you.." That was a really cute comment 🥰

[@JaredB001]

I’m in my 40’s and I am 100% in support of embracing more dorkish, childish and nerdy stuff in the world. I do not take offence to being called a dorky nerd or childish.

[@dallastexas5653]

Whatever need.

[@go_golden]

what a nerd

[@elqord.1118]

Good for you

[@bradjohnston8825]

Im 55 and I loved the nostalgia of the dragon book. I get what the reviewers are saying, though, but I disagree with much about aesthetics that they criticized. This is everything I could want and expect from a) a Stonemier game b) a game about dragons.

[@KissellMissile]

Did you read the dragon guide though?

[@letsgojojoshow]

The aesthetic and the short descriptions have the vibe of the sort of dragon figurines and sculptures that you'll find in collectable shops.

[@capnclockwork398]

Maybe Zee would dress up and give it a 10 if it was Marvelspan 😂 complete with a book of lore about made up facts and events. One nerd's dragon is another nerd's Spiderman.

[@juanpablopagan9763]

You are so on point. The Hipocrisy is real 😂

[@memoman88]

@@juanpablopagan9763 It isn't hypocrisy to like one theme and not another.

[@juanpablopagan9763]

​@memoman88 Oh so when Zee is bashing people for the lore and made up facts about dragons isn't it the same with marvel lore in comics and in movies or other made up IP's in the hobby??? It is ALL fictional so the same could be said about it too. So yes, it is indeed hypocritical bashing the theme for that. And believe me I like Zee, matter a fact he's my favorite in the DT but on this I disagree.

[@draheim90]

@@juanpablopagan9763I think the distinction is that for Wyrmspan they essentially developed their own lore by designing entirely novel dragons, names, and facts sort of like a Wyrmspan universe, which seems to he what’s irking Zee. Whereas Marvel games coming out today aren’t reinventing superheroes or creating their own universe but rather are utilizing decades-old source material. That said, still strongly prefer this theme to Marvel.

[@juanpablopagan9763]

​@draheim90 Again, the same argument. It is fictional material. Just because Marvel's material is decades old does not make it not fictional. What your saying is that if Wyrmspan's lore was decades old he wouldn't be bashing it? Come on now... Again, Zee is my favorite, but his argument makes no sense 😅

[@jakekoninsky5681]

Maybe if I actually got to play this I'd have a different opinion, but personally I prefer having the food and the dice system in Wingspan. As a solo game I would understand why it's inferior, but when playing with other people I feel like the dice generates some of the most interaction and strategy regarding resources. The luck of the birdfeeder can influence what cards you play or what actions you play and when, and even adds a little bit of a push your luck element at times. This adds more variety between games and makes you have to be more adaptive to different situations, which I find very appealing. I played a game with some friends where everyone needed fish and we were not getting any from the dice, which added a lot of humor and frustration (in a good way) to the game. This made me steer course while others kept trying to get said fish, which ended up helping me since they were stuck fighting for fish.

[@Scidad23archery]

Hey, Zee….we are nerdy and dorky. You too buddy. One of us. One of us.

[@Thanos88888]

I have played Wingspan a few times (I don't own it) and when I saw a dragon themed version coming, I had to order it. My copy of Wyrmspan arrived this week and I got it to the table yesterday on a 2 player game. I really like the theme and how it treats dragons like and draconologist would in regards to research, etc. The bird theme of Wingspan is neat, it just doesn't really do it for me. I much prefer the gameplay and mechanics of Wyrmspan over Wingspan and I'm glad I waited to pick this one up instead of Wingspan. I can't wait to get this to a group game night. I give Wyrmspan a 9.0 grade.

[@danielwoodruff9791]

Usually love these reviews. This one was awkward and off putting. Weird shade being thrown. One guy basically saying “people who like dragons suck and I don’t want to play with them”. Nerds are your audience!

[@FoolishFishBooks]

Zee's "aaah" of perfectly pulled off straight-faced sarcastic pretend realisation at the beginning (x2) just fully made my day 😂 Thank you sir 👏👏👏

[@Tanks.With.Teeth.Malloy]

So...the comment about the book at around 12 mins in is when I stopped watching. The point of the book is to provide theme and immersion for people who want that. In wignspan there were facts about birds on the cards. Some people complained about it and it was decided for this game to have a book with that info. This meant that more info can be put on the cards, and more info can be done about the dragons in the book. Like...Zees comments about being "nerdy" and being in a basement was super off putting...i was not expecting it and to be honest it kind of hurt...I am a nerd and I am damn proud of it. Zee sounds like the jocks at my highscool who made fun of me playing DnD or MTG. Which really sucks...like...really sucks. I will continue to be "lame" and "dorky" and be proud of it.

[@TheDarktater]

Huh. I still haven't played it but I think this might be the prettiest game I have ever seen.

[@ScytheNoire]

Don't own Wingspan, so getting Wyrmspan. Like they took out the dice and added a bit more crunch.

[@draheim90]

Pretty much, it’s like they took Wingspan and gave it a dose of Euro-y resource conversion and track advancement.

[@RickKoeppen]

To sum it up for me, if it was the other way around and Wyrmspan came out first, I wouldn't feel the need to check out Wingspan. "Fantasy" is infinitely more interesting to me than factual birds. Eliminating the bird feeder randomness and actually getting the opportunity to gain MORE actions instead of losing them as the game goes on seals the deal for me. Many more interesting abilities also than simply tuck, lay an egg, cache a food, and those tedious in between player actions. Wyrmspan wins hands down.

[@davidbronstein2040]

Wingspan was great for me to get people involved in ornithology and conservation activities in my city. Wyrmspan, alternatively has no real world impact.

[@RickKoeppen]

@@davidbronstein2040 No argument from me, but I don't mind when my games are just games.

[@runraggedrhino]

I don't really think anyone would have dressed up to play this, but now that Zee has said it, I very much hope people do at the next Dice Tower retreat and get him to teach the game! (plus get him to explain the background on what each dragon type eats) 😂

[@jessewieman6955]

I agree that the birds and the interesting bird facts was a big selling point for me to live wingspan. I do not care for the fantasy theme I wish it was sea creatures or woodland animals or insects or something. That would have been super cool. The game is missing that accidental Learning

[@The_Wampy]

I didn't even think of that! I would've loved Wingspan with different animals/mechanics. Now dragons feels like such a weak theme.

[@NadiaVenClose]

Maybe that’ll be their next game- random animals.

[@soopermateys]

The graphic design on the boards 100% looks like a prototype and not the final version.

[@fafum1272]

I like both themes a lot. Admittedly I thought the bird theme was refreshing (before the explosion of more nature themed games). If they came out at the same time I'm not sure which I'd get. I do like the relevance of the bird facts on the cards. Although I do like and appreciate the work that was done to add some silly background to the dragons. Wingspan came out first and I have several expansions. So I really can't justify getting this one as well. Thanks for the review.

[@tessablanchard3649]

I'm all for you guys giving honest opinions, but jeez, this just felt rude. I love dragons, proud big old dork over here but I'm not playing dress up living in a basement. Don't need Zee at my table with this negative energy! Did someone cut him off in traffic this morning or something?? Gosh!

[@DaveBouvier]

Zee, do you dress as a doctor when you play Pandemic? 😊

[@TheGiraffehead]

I think you are missing his point.

[@johchadow]

No, he dresses up like a contingency planner. 🤣

[@RulebooksForYou]

I love that they added details about the dragons... I'd rather play this over anything Marvel any day.

[@user-qx9nm9dv6z]

Counterpoint to the dragon book: my family’s first modern board game was wingspan, and it was wonderful experience to have my children show interest and grow to love the hobby. Since then, when a board game really sticks, I see them wanting to know more about a concept’s creation, and as well, at times, imagine about characters and adventures outside the constraints of win conditions (e.g. root n subterra). I for one, would be excited to be able to show my kids some supplementary info on the dragons they adore. And what’s more, it sounds to be a free insert! Woot! I wonder if those who are uninterested in the book could pass them off to a young person they know, maybe that’d be enough to get them interested in the hobby.

[@alexgregory1647]

Bought a copy after watching this review can’t wait!!!!

[@a-c-m]

Dragons are still not as dorky and nerdy as all the Marvel super hero BS

[@TheMath3uss]

So, I shold return the costume? I looooove dragons.

[@elqord.1118]

yes please. About time

[@marcymarc1981]

Sjoe guys, this review has a Statler and Waldorf-like quality to it.

[@chukniloc]

I do own a dragon kigurumi that hadn't tought of playing with! Thank you Zee!😂

[@daniellebackus819]

I think the dragon art looks awesome, and I’m very excited to read the lore book!

[@MrNoirocla]

yikes

[@cindykee3719]

I love birds and thought Wingspan sounded great, but was never in a group that was excited about a game with birds, so I never played it more than once or twice. But with Dragons, I think it will go over much better for people in my group who aren't excited by birds but love dragons.

[@HeadintheGame]

Wow I really didn’t see that seal of excellence coming. The excitement level in the video was a solid 6.5 at best.

[@klabjcobevj72nso0fj4]

They don't award games seals based on "excitement level" during the video

[@HeadintheGame]

Yeah it seems the game mechanisms made up quite a bit for the issues with the art and theme that they spent a lot of time talking about.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

@@HeadintheGame By 0.5 mind which might as well round down to 8.

[@borreholic7238]

I personally find it refreshing that the excitement level isn't always exactly on par with the ratings given.

[@stephenhanbury]

@@TheBrokenMeeplewhy?

[@WilliamOfUrnge]

This review feels to me similarly to how I feel as a Wingspan owner seeing Wyrmspan on a shelf at my FLGS. Weirdly uncomfortable by this strangely similar and strangely different game that I already enjoy. I think the underlying question for me is the same as it was for Everdell: Farshore: What was the intent for creating this game? Was this supposed to be Wingspan with patches? Was it Wingspan, except for dragon nerds instead of bird nerds? (I'm a bird nerd, BTW) I'm sure, like, Everdell: Farshore, it's a great game. Heck, I'm sure it improves on some ideas. The underpinnings for Wingspan and Everdell are rock solid. But at the end of the day, as a consumer it feels like a tweaked product that was designed to make money. Marketing the same game with just enough differences and to an ever-so-slightly different market. Like Everdell: Farshore, it's not a great feeling as a consumer. And I think intent is a difficult topic for reviewers to broach.

[@WilliamOfUrnge]

@@ServiceDogPuppyRaiser you have valid points. And I appreciate your respectful criticism. I will say, it still did kinda suck to see Wyrmspan come out. I'm on a limited budget and have sunk SO much money into the Wingspan franchise (and regretted nothing to that point) that this just feels kinda crappy. Like, now did I waste my money on an inferior game with a theme I love? Maybe it's just "too soon" for me? Maybe it's just because now I don't know what to expect from the next expansion? Is there going to be a whole Wingspan Universe like Disney's dreaded MCU? I just don't know what to expect as a consumer and wanted to express my grief there. Outside of that, if my criticism amounts to anything, I'd just rather see more original ideas (ie: Apiary from Stonemaier). End of the day, I just don't want to see companies I love to support turn into Disney Studios, where we get reskin after reskin every year. I hope that does not happen! And it probably won't. But if expressing my concern can help prevent that from happening, I will try. Hopefully nothing came across too pejorative here. It's the comment section and I'm on my phone so it's very hard for me to engage in quality back and forth discussion. Lol

[@notsaved]

the dice pool is basically the only player interaction Wingspan has, if you don't consider hate drafting. The shrinking actions over turns perfectly balance the increasingly powerful engines you can build, forcing you to not just buy birds for points, but also engine-build to have explosive late turns. In a few months people will realize Wingspan is a superior design

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

Yes, for a one-trick pony dominated by egg-laying in the late game. The thrill of random resources is not enough to compensate for greater variability via the cave cards.

[@notsaved]

@@TorIverWilhelmsen Oceania expansion fixed this years ago

[@TPH250290]

@@TorIverWilhelmsen I'm not a big fan of Wingspan, but I feel like it wouldn't have been one of the most successful games of the last 5 years if it was a "one trick pony".

[@The_Wampy]

I agree with Zee that I think this game is mechanically better than Wingspan but thematically lacking for me personally. I would have loved fish or something, though.

[@jameskirk4692]

Exactly, me too.

[@NadiaVenClose]

Next Stonemeier game will be fish, then next one after that random animals. Then insects.

[@user-bb3kw8gx1n]

My review of this review is I think it’s an amateur review with weak and pedantic focus on nuanced personal preferences related to art and theme. Tom did well and delivered points that make sense including respecting and framing the theme properly.

[@JakRoto]

What a curmudgeonly review. Does adding some richness with non mechanical flavor to the game, which doesn't affect the actual play, really worth that level of irritation?

[@johchadow]

I'm a little surprised how high Camilla scored it based on her comments. I was expecting a 6.5 or 7 from her, but she explained herself well. Good review, nice to hear the pros and cons from everyone.

[@cindykee3719]

Camilla was critical of some of the graphics design issues, like putting eggs on cards and covering up a bunch of the card. Isn't that the same issue in Wingspan?

[@MrNoirocla]

she did say she doesn't care for wingspan either

[@JayV110]

Very odd review! Agree with lots here. The energy and vibe was off. Zee came out as a huge elitist here. It’s funny he thought the art book was talking down to “nerds” then he proceeds to do exactly that. Very off putting!

[@MsGinahidesout]

I agree. Especially bcs I was one of those nerds in my basement in the 80s! And 😊 I still dress up for D&D sometimes.

[@JayV110]

@@MsGinahidesoutExactly, and same!! I’m still a huge geek and will also dress up if I want to!

[@TinyTactician]

Just usual zee banter I thought it was funny

[@MsGinahidesout]

Me too!!

[@yardene3426]

100% in line with Zee here.

[@Legitster]

The theme is like the game equivalent of reading Fantastic Beasts and Where To Find Them or like a Star Wars lore book. I understand people being into it, but yeah the game looks so generic to me.

[@TheSludgeMan]

I can see kids loving the game and the dragons sparking their imagination but I agree with Zee it is dorky and childish in an off-putting way. I do think Zee was a bit harsh about it though.

[@Attix_Niche]

Now I hope there's a Wingspan 2.0 with the best mechanics of this game. I don't own any of these yet; so, I'll wait for that one, if it ever happens.

[@jameskirk4692]

Mmmmm, exactly what I would love!

[@batac667]

This game is better than wingspan in litterally every mechanical aspect, but somehow people are salty about this.. and yeah, theme is personal preference so it shouldn't be a deciding point. I like dragons far better, but I wouldnt thrash the game if I somehow loved birds more, doesn't make any logical sense

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

They sound like some Agricola fans after Caverna came out...

[@user-rp6db8qy3l]

So there are a lot of interesting comments, let’s all give everyone a break. Maybe folks weren’t the best version of themselves for review, but it is still a lot of work to put these videos out there - and I appreciated that the crew played it live. They all also gave it top marks for gameplay. The autopilot comment I don’t quite get, but maybe I am not as smart as Camilla and therefore this is a more thinky game for me than for her. And that is ok. I appreciate the review, and really appreciate Tom clarifying why he gave seal of excellence. Be Well

[@gardamun]

I'm not a Wingspan fan, but I imagine for those that are that this is only a positive. More cards, more variety, more ways of playing a game you already like. Like having another version of GWT, I will buy every single one of those no matter how many they make. Thanks for the review.

[@lizziejohnson5084]

I haven't played the game, but I wonder if the dragon booklet is meant to be a bit like the guide book 'Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them' that J.K. Rowling wrote to expand on what is in Harry Potter. So I wonder if what Zee is thinking that it seems a bit hollow as it doesn't have enough substance to stand on its own/draw people into that world.

[@PatrickBrophy]

When I first introduced Wingspan to my friends last year, I had one who was vehemently opposed to the bird theme, while everyone else loved the game. We then joked if they changed the theme to dragons, he’d love it. So when this was announced, we couldn’t believe it. Really looking forward to playing it and seeing how we all feel about it in comparison to “Birdspan.”

[@shanefrancis34]

Well, considering the high scores The Dice Tower felt very negative towards this game, almost like they begrudgingly enjoyed it? Lots of negativity towards this game across all social media platforms, not sure why. Also there is a lot of hype, I for one have ordered it on day 1 as Stonemaier games have a decent hit rate with me so looking forward to it..

[@Bleuchz]

All three of them say its better than wingspin. I think it is a more nit-picky review because they actually have an easy comparison game whereas most reviews you're just talking about the pros/cons and not making those comparisons.

[@TorIverWilhelmsen]

They were mostly negative to the art and "world-building" in the form of the info book. I mean, people loved Castles of Burgundy and Notre Dame despite how horrid and bland they look.

[@stephens2401]

This remake does bother me in a certain way and its hard to figure out why. Even comparing to Dune Uprising or Everdell Farshore, this felt a bit cheesy. The original theme of birds and bird facts is imo why it was a smashing success. Even if wyrmspan fixes some mechanism, couldn't winspan have done that with any of its 4 expansions by now?

[@jameskirk4692]

Exactly! Why didn't they revised it and introduced this through those expansions of Wingspan. This should have been Wingspan expansion which drastically changes the gamplay.

[@toe.knee.sobaskie1678]

I really wanted a reptiles and amphibians version. Would have been a great chance with this game.

[@MikeDV34]

This is such a weird review.

[@Carutsu]

half way through it they still rambling about the colors 😆 and now about the dragon lore

[@VoidVerification]

And nerds! 😂

[@nshaw1299]

well... the game is a weird proposition... Is it trying to say 'Hey, I want to streamline wingspan'?, 'improve on it mechanically'? 'make it fit a slightly different audience mechanically?' And then, taking wingspan's appeal to many people of also telling you real facts about real birds - and translating that part into fantasy, is... weird. Because it's not real. If the facts were about 'the history of the folklor/myth' behind each example (this dragon appeared in the story of blablabla) it would've made more sense to most, I think. Though not sure it would fit the variety needed for this game... So maybe not dragons but some other real animal? Insects? oceanic life?

[@draheim90]

As the above person mentioned, this is also just a weird product. A gamified 1.5 version of Wingspan with a fantasy reskin that sort of pretends the dragons they created are real.

[@Wrycon-Inc]

Yeah, seems they all could have used a vitamin boost prior to reviewing

[@Gtomer]

Jamey Stonemaier likes to make world building part of his games. I understand it's an important part for him. I'm guessing that book of information is to give more of the feels of the world of the game. But it doesn't look like it worked this time.

[@HackWeight]

Jamey said that they eliminated the Dragon Facts from the cards to make the game more accessible. Apparently they did testing with Wingspan cards and when they removed the bird facts, the cards became easier to read. But they felt like they wanted to provide facts for those people who loved that part of Wingspan so much, so they came up with the book idea. I'm not sure it works, especially because it's all made up information. With Wingspan you are learning actual stuff about birds which people find interesting. With this, you are just learning imaginary stuff which I'm not sure really is worth having to get out a separate book to look up.

[@Gtomer]

Imaginary creatures do have lores to them and information about their behaviours and likes etc but it seems that in this booklet it is just "facts" and not much of lore that helps with the world building or making connections with those creatures. Flamecraft has done a better job in building its dragon world and lore and I don't think it has any text with "facts" in it to add to the world building.

[@user-rp6db8qy3l]

I liked the book a lot, every game everyone get a dragon down we mark it in the book as a “sighting”

[@dylanshearsbyart]

Lol @ how much Zee hates the dragons haha

[@bricelory9534]

One of the main things that drives away my interest is the gimmicky title - an obvious play on Wingspan that doesn't make sense on its own (nor is it explained anywhere, right?) Like the publisher knows it doesn't make sense unless you already know their hit game Wingspan. I dunno what a better name would be - titles are always very hars - but Wyrmspan rubs me the wrong way. Secondly, and just as much a personal opinion and taste, I wasn't looking for a more complex Wingspan. It seems like some of the extra steps added (exploring caves etc) don't add anything but complication and really dillute the importance of the engine building. That is a major factor as to why Wingspan caught on so much: a quite pure and compelling engine building game. It had just enough systems to make the engine building interesting without distracting from the thing you want to be doing: playing birds. This sequel feels a bit more aimless in the rules - a guild track? That's only there because gamers like tracks, not because it really pushes forward the main idea of the game: playing dragons. I really love Terry Pratchett's Disc World, which has a species of 2 foot tallish "swamp dragons" that rich people breed like cats and dogs. They are quite silly and adorable, so I resonated with the theme of dragons more being wildlife, even if it's a silly take on wildlife- I just don't know that the complications in the game serve the theme well. Of course, I'd have gotten it without question (and maybe then been slightly disappointed) if the theme had been breeding swamp dragons, but a Terry Pratchett fan service probably isn't the best thing fir a Wingspan sequel. ...which is also odd, since one of the factors that brought Wingspan to a lot of people's attention is that it was about real birds, not anything fictional. I wonder if this would do much better if it was about fish or some other real animal. It feels like they landed in ths gimnicky name first and stuck with that instead of working through what the lifeblood of Wingspan was - a beautiful menagerie of real-world birds.

[@user-rp6db8qy3l]

If you check out the designers story they pitched the game as dragons. Also it is more complex than wingspan, watch an actual play or play though it if you get the chance - I found it plays different than I thought it would after understanding the differences/ Also all 3 of the DT folks gave it good marks for gameplay. 8.5 is a solid score.

[@danyk426]

Guys bored games are inherently nerdy…no matter the theme 😂

[@dandurkin9735]

* board

[@mattr.9825]

I hope they make an app of this because I think I’d rather own a physical copy of Wingspan for the broader appeal and an app of Wyrmspan for the gameplay differences. Also, I have to say that I really don’t like the name Wyrmspan.

[@jameskirk4692]

Me too

[@darrenkisgen3148]

Much respect for this review. Especially the brutal honesty from Milla and Zee.

[@NadiaVenClose]

And calling people nerds and hating on dragons. Loved it.

[@kirilivanov8226]

How and why would you rate something so high but claim that you dont wanna play it?! I don't get it... This review makes no sense

[@gamesnstuff657]

I'm happy this game exists. I'm probably going to stick to Wingspan though. Never say never, maybe I will play it and be blown away, but I LOVE the bird theme of the wingspan. It gives the game a pleasant and cozy feel that I don't get from other games. Sure there are some things that I wish were tweaked on the edges here and there, but overall wingspan is solidly in my top 10. For those who were put off by the bird theme and wanted more from wingspan this will hopefully be a great option for them to enjoy the spirit of wingspan the game.

[@jameskirk4692]

Exactly. I too LOVE the bird theme and Wingspan is kinda cozy relaxing feeling for me.

[@EmeraldWaters-uq1jb]

Birbs are better but gameplay sounds better here. So I will play both! Excited to play this.

[@glaxmattbas]

I would dress up as a dragon to play it

[@MsGinahidesout]

Me too!

[@TheSchaef47]

The description should have been tongue in cheek, like Unsettled or something. Or be like How to Train Your Dragon and end each one with "Extremely Dangerous. Kill On Sight."

[@Alluvian567]

Keep watching reviews of this and have to say I just really like wingspan a lot more for the base rules.

[@HardlyDOTA]

Zee’s anti dragon prejudice is outrageous. Someone needs to dress up as a dragon and invite him to play Wyrmspan at the next convention. Seriously, who doesn’t like dragons.

[@TheBrokenMeeple]

Meh. Birds > Dragons ;-)

[@chrisingold4590]

Same - the mechanics are better and the caves are cool and I know family and my game groups will enjoy it. Some are excited about the dragons. But I so wish it wasn’t dragons. Really not a fan of generic fantasy tropes at all. There is also a part of our hobby that believes everything is better with dragons and fantasy tropes and a subset of those that really don’t like birds. A whole bunch of my friends seem to fit into both those categories so I know Wyrmspan will get played and as it’s a really good actual ‘game’ I have no issue with playing it.

[@JohnClem56]

@@TheBrokenMeeple Ehh, Aliens > Birds > Dragons > Orcs... Oooh wait, I bet this will stir up some controversy... Elves > Dwarves! 🤣🤣

[@benjaminspears8488]

Agreed with others that this review was a little off-putting. It almost deserves an apology video. I mean, next week they’ll rave about something with Marvel, Cthulhu, or Dwarves, and yet if you like dragons, THAT’S too nerdy? I love Zee, but sometimes his shtick gets a bit old where he calls a game trash in jest or he makes fun of “nerds” for loving nerdy stuff. It seems here, that he’s starting to believe his schtick. I should note, that I’ve never played either game as I try to only play games that are under an hour, so I’m not defending it out of love for the games. I think it’s fair to say that the art isn’t for you without actually insulting people who like it.

[@mrdarlok]

stretch goal for the next dice tower crowdfunding: Have Zee’s avatar be a dragon

[@elnarradordeorquideas7645]

I think there was too much emphasis in the theme of the game and way less in the game as a whole. Also starting a review with "I dont like the dragons..." kind of set up the entire review to try to justify why it is not a good theme. And then justify why a good score....one of the few reviews where it felt the chemistry of the reviewers whas not there. In other words, i didn't see a theme in the review, jk.

[@ConeDefense]

In fairness, the reason this theme exists is because so many (of the negative) reviews of Wingspan started off with “I don’t like birds”.

[@matthewzahnzinger]

Always respect the candor and honesty that the Dice Tower brings to its review, but wow... for a game that scored an average of an 8/10, this had an almost weirdly negative tone or vibe to the review. First time I've felt that way after watching years of their reviews, but so it goes. Wingspan is a 10 for me, and I also like fantasy themes (though I agree I can't make up my mind about the artwork) so it's inevitable that I'm going to give this one a try. The one thing that would have stopped me would have been if the scores also had tanked; as it is, the aggressive criticism has just left me kinda confused.

[@draheim90]

A 7.5 almost seems to be their baseline rating these days, at least for their longer reviews with multiple people. Noticed in their weekly recap none of them gave a game below 7 (Seal of Approval) in a long-form review. Might be survivorship bias as they may be doing fewer long reviews and mostly doing them for more popular or hyped games, but still.

[@matthewzahnzinger]

@@draheim90 I've not heard the specific term survivorship bias before, but (I'm guessing) it's the idea that they're not going to take a ton of time to review games they know they're going to dislike? Which, if so, I know Tom and other content creators not just at the Dice Tower have addressed before, and makes sense just from an hours-in-the-day standpoint.

[@thedicetower]

That's exactly what it is - survivorship bias. Look at my roundup videos I do each week, and you'll see my average is much lower. We give more time to the games we like, and why not?

[@draheim90]

@@matthewzahnzinger pretty much. In this context, if they play a game and don't like it and/or don't think it warrants spending time discussing, then they're less likely to give it a dedicated long-form review. So scores for their longer reviews are relatively high whereas games they didn't like are combined in roundup reviews and whatnot as Tom said or even potentially not reviewed at all.

[@danieltush7792]

Wow, that was... uncomfortable. I'm not sure I've ever seen someone here be almost spiteful to somebody who might like a game, a piece of art, a story, or whatever. Ick.

[@matthewsinger]

It sounds like there is an opportunity for a Wingspan expansion that changes the mechanics to be similar to Wyrmspan. Maybe we'll see some changes with a South America or Africa set.

[@saykhia]

Next will be C-span. Of the span of one’s promises exceeding their reach?

[@leafonthewind]

Who dumped salt in Zee and Camilla’s coffee? If you don’t care for the artwork or theme, fine. But they seemed to be coming really hard for people who do.

[@kumanight]

I feel similarly to Camilla with Wingspan. It's a fine game. I have it super deluxified but I haven't tabled it since 2022. The mechanics are okay and the theme doesn't do it for me. Wyrmspan has a more interesting theme (not by much granted) and shores up the mechanics to the point where I think I'll enjoy this one a lot!

[@Alluvian567]

I will never understand why they made the cave cards that size. Why not full height so you can carry them properly in your hand of cards? Just print the little stop symbol on the bottom of them all and make them the same height as the dragon cards. I don't get it.

[@lenaforsgren]

Great review! Pretty sure I’ll enjoy this one as much or even more than Wingspan 😀 Can’t imagine this one replacing Wingspan, I’m pretty confident I’ll want to play both. 😎 Love the look of it, by the way.

[@jennycox7954]

This review has the weirdest vibe I’ve ever experience from a Dice Tower review. It felt very awkward to watch. I’m personally very excited to try this game. I love dragons and really enjoy Wingspan.

[@michaelsweazey8655]

This is an ironic review: There’s the irony of people who review board games for a living talking about the dragons being dorky?!?😀 Then there’s going off on a book about the dragons when every Kickstarter has art books and fluff that has nothing to add to the game and costs $400. This seems like they filmed it first thing in the morning before coffee or the last thing before they go home and are tired. Especially Zee’s going off on the dragon theme and people who might get into them just made him sound like a jerk, and he normally isn’t one.

[@ShaggyDevil163]

I feel that Wingspan has a lot of 'family game' sensibilities and appeal (the theme, rolling dice, secret goals, the oveal stunning look with the dice tower etc.) whereas this is the more gamer version where all that was stripped for a more strategic and 'serious' feel.

[@suemoore7779]

Wow. I agree with others. This review felt strange. Not sure I have seen so much indifference or dislike for certain aspects of a game that scored so high. I also believe the dragon book was partially written because they wanted to have less text on the cards to help with readability, but still wanted to provide more details for those who want a more immersive experience with the fantasy world created. No need to like it, but I don't believe the shaming of people who do was needed. Very out of character for Zee. Maybe he was having a bad day, but it wasn't a good look.

[@Tarryk]

Wow, guys. Who hurt your feelings? It's a game about dragons and you hate that it talks about dragons and has paintings of dragons. Perhaps we should have just had Tom review it.

[@kumanight]

The way Zee feels about this cover/theme is exactly how I feel about Post Apocolyptic games. Incredibly boring and I steer clear as soon as I see the beige cover with Mad Max cars

[@Sagartkothari]

They should have gone with extinct birds/ reptiles/ animals/ Dinosaurs theme

[@matthew.strout]

You can fill your tableau in Wingspan

[@jameskirk4692]

And, there are more spaces for birds in Wingspan then there are space for dragons in Wyrmspan

[@Lavfibra]

If you completely fill the aviary (which is incredibly difficult but doable with Ravens and the 'let you play a second bird' birds) you are probably losing the game. You will need around 15 of your 26 turns and they will be cheap birds...

[@matthew.strout]

@@LavfibraI've done it where I won a 5 player game with a score of 113, using only 1 play another bird cards and no ravens

[@Murkaeus]

Played Wingspan, thought it was fine, but didn't pick it up. Wyrmspan sounds like a new version with marked improvements and a better theme (imo) which has convinced me to buy it. Also, this is *not* "generic" fantasy. The designs, setting, and world building are distinct and unique. Please see a dictionary if you've forgotten what the word means.

[@Murkaeus]

Got my copy. Played and enjoyed it. Glad to have it in my collection.

[@chrisporter3486]

Enjoyed the transparency in the review, on all sides. Good discussions to be had. I can't wait to support SM with the purchase of this game. The fact Jamey is super community-centric, and that SM has provided more opportunities for diversity in game design, and artwork in games (women designers, black artists, etc). It's a no-brainer. Ppl saying this is a cash grab probably have no idea what running a business is like lol. Companies literally are supposed to build off of success. Why wouldn't they make a game that's adjacent to a popular IP they own, create literally a new game, and provide a different audience to opportunity to experience it. And.. idk.. make money so they can continue to create more games and pay their employees? Some opinions I've seen are absolutely mental.

[@daniellebackus819]

Right? I think some people are defining “cash grab” as “product intended to make money,” which is generally true of all products. A true “cash grab” is something that you know people will pay money for, but they don’t need and it doesn’t improve on what came before… and it takes very little effort to produce. Closest thing I can think of is how Pokemon always releases two versions of the game… they are almost the same, but have tiny changes and people will buy both so they make a lot more money. I don’t personally have a problem with Pokemon doing that, especially since you can trade Pokemon with someone else and still catch them all. If you couldn’t do that, it would definitely be a “cash grab”. This game is NOT a cash grab. Are board game designers no longer allowed to iterate on games in a series?? That’s just dumb.

[@chrisporter3486]

My feelings exactly @daniellebackus819 . I'm really annoyed with how ppl are looking at this. But it's always good to remember that those loud annoying voices are typically the minority. Especially when you see how many copies SM has already sold. I'm super excited for the team and Jamey's success with this! I'll be purchasing a copy from my local game store so I can bring business to multiple revenue streams. As a small biz owner myself, I'll always keep supporting good ppl who do good stuff.

[@noizeemama3697]

I found the art to be meh. It just doesn't work well with dragons. I want color and boldness. I do like the artwork in Wingspan though.

[@KZsZs]

Wow. The energy of this review was all over the place. Was someone pointing a gun at you folks during the review? 😅 Tom was overly defensive and was walking on eggshells (both bird and wyrm eggshells), Camilla looked like she is trying to hide her nervousness by acting cool, and Zee was getting more and more annoyed every second and eventually that annoyance turned into low-key anger. They were cagey about some aspects of the game and overly fussy about others. Love you guys. I hope noone is hurt after this ride 😅

[@theincantrix1144]

The game is garbage, but since it's super important to honor the "female" designer of a previous game (Wingspan). There was zero need to move the explorer forward into the cave, instead of backwards out of the cave. Thus, no need for either Stop Signs or Small Cards. The art is garbage, the board is garbage. It has random ideas - Guilds? Coins for actions? Milk and Gold, Crystals and Meat? Pick an idea, buy or feed. There will be a whole lot of these games available on the secondary market soon enough.

[@MsGinahidesout]

Idk... honestly, I couldn't care less about the bird theme in Wingspan. So i was stoked about the dragon theme! And yet, somehow, this one seems less impressive and thematic. 😢

[@whiskeygamesnerdstuff789]

Appreciate the Video, will give this one a try.

[@masonbeggs3108]

For me, the art doesn’t hit because it feels in contrast to the graphic design. The visuals don’t feel cohesive - as if multiple “departments” designed parts of the game without collaborating.

[@joshuamccartney7712]

Zee walks out back and puts on a Pony costume..... ha....stupid dragons!

[@Picosaurus]

After that review’s downbeat tone, I was surprised to then see pretty good scores and the seal of excellence! I guess sometimes expectations just aren’t met.