Shin Megami Tensei V (Zero Punctuation)

[@theescapist]

Watch this week's episode of Zero Punctuation on Halo Infinite - www.escapistmagazine.com/halo-infinite-zero-punctuation/ - Watch it early on KZbin and support our content via KZbin Memberships.

[@ArenaEmperor]

Genuinely my only addition to this video is actually a bit of clarity on the plot, assuming Yahtzee still cares. This game actually picks up directly after SMT 3, and is almost a companion piece/other side of that story. Nothing ever indicates this for people who didn't play the third game, and I will count is as a sign that this game's writing is bad and could be much better. I think they use it as a bit of an excuse for this game having thin plot, because half its plot is in another game entirely. On the other hand, if you played SMT3: Nocturne and are a big fan of that game, a lot in this game can make you squee like a school girl, point and go "I get that thing that happened!" As I said. Super great if you're in the know, but a huge detriment if you're coming in cold turkey.

[@xeoverse8770]

Ok Phil Fish JR!

[@xeoverse8770]

“Shin Megami Tensei basically is Persona without the day to day life sim aspect or vibrant visual design or really good music or engaging characters. When you think about it, Undertale is basically Shin Megami Tensei the Saturday morning cartoon version." Spoken like an ignorant person who’s never played Persona 1 or 2 in his entire lifetime!

[@Mathmachine]

I love the chaos and confusion that comes every time Yahtzee plays a JRPG.

[@jectblade]

I love that I still can't tell whenever he enjoys a game or not.

[@StrikeWarlock]

@@jectblade it's in the same level as Sekiro where he gets why people like it but it's not his cup of tea, since Sekiro is essentially a Soulsborne but it's parry centric combat punishes his playstyle hence why he doesn't like it as much as other Soulsbornes.

[@jectblade]

@@StrikeWarlock I was just joking about how even when Yahtzee truly loves a game, his reviews still sound really negative. LOL

[@bosknight7837]

I completely understand him tbh. JRPGs are confusing as hell

[@Pie_The_Man]

@@jectblade definitely dislikes this game, his review of P5 is one where its hard to tell if he likes the game or not

[@StrikeWarlock]

Also that Pixie description is probably what Demifiend feels everytime he sets foot on a new dimension.

[@MogFlintlock]

Yahtzee: Y'know, I'm not a big fan of Vodka, but this cocktail isn't too bad. Vodka fans then start pouring him shots.

[@JonNewsh]

This is one damn good analogy

[@Pie_The_Man]

Can't really blame em. When you have a niche interest you're gonna recommend it to anyone who seems even slightly receptive to it.

[@Myrdin90]

@@Pie_The_Man just like heroin addicts

[@Pie_The_Man]

@@Myrdin90 stretch something enough and you can tie any two points together

[@thyetyeyryeretyery]

Yeah, really good analogy. Doesn't help that SMT V is one of the mainline games with the least story and interesting characters. I imagine SMT IV or even Strange Journey would be better.

[@merrittanimation7721]

"When you think about it Undertale is basically Shin Megami Tensei the Saturday morning cartoon version" I- don't know how to respond to this.

[@Brian-tn4cd]

Toby Fox did say SMT and other games inspired the conversation system

[@J3Puffin]

SMT being the cartoon version of ANYTHING is wild

[@ender7278]

Was that line in the video? You got a timestamp for it?

[@Brian-tn4cd]

@@ender7278 it's at the end in the credits

[@StrikeWarlock]

@@J3Puffin for Japan it isn't, this is an industry where their adaptation of Spiderman literally has a gun for killing baddies.

[@cynicalstubs360]

Coincidentally, Toby Fox has cited the dialogue system from the first SMT as an inspiration for Undertale

[@gtdfg4594]

I wouldn't even say coincidentally, that was what he was aiming for. Which is interesting; he made it the focus of Undertale, so much so that battling normally is quite frowned upon in-game and underwhelming when compared to the dialogue incentives (Genocide, which is 1/3-ish of the game, is a 90% boring route), while in SMT, battling is the main focus and negotiation compliments it: you talk to demons in order to mainly fight better, maybe get free stuff to last a little more before healing and going back to fighting, or to avoid some tough encounters. Not saying Toby Fox didn't do some great, even fantastic stuff, but in both his games, the combat feels more like it's being hindered by the dialogue rather than both complimenting each other (which Susie illustrates really well in the beginning of Deltarune Chpt.1), which could be part of the reason he chose to implement Shoot 'em Up elements into the gameplay even if you go dialogue only.

[@arashink]

Speaking of, I'd really like to see Yahtzee do a proper review of Undertale, instead of that copout he did to qualify it for his game of the year award.

[@sablen1319]

@@gtdfg4594 In what way is Undertale’s combat hindered by the battle dialogue? The dialogue is the game. You play a bullet hell when fighting because the combat is focused on dodging, not attacking. “If you go dialogue only...” You aren’t supposed to do the genocide route, that was the whole point of the game.

[@gtdfg4594]

@Sablen 1 Exactly my point: why even feature weak combat when you have to spam the confirm button 30x per area to access one of the game's main paths? Sure, the point of Genocide is that it's far from the ideal path, but did it really need to be boring to make its point? It has some amazing incentives in Sans' battle and permanently changing your game; it isn't a pointless route. I think he could've either developed a different gameplay loop, to make it easier to stomach, or cut a bunch of the obligatory area-wiping fights. Again, I understand that is exactly the point, but instead of dreading every decision I made, I found myself bored a lot of the time, with the exceptions of key fights and exploring what you've done. Even Pacifist gets stale nearing the end, but it isn't long enough to wear out its welcome. And it made some amazing stuff without needing to hit any enemy; it shows that combat wasn't needed. And yes, the point of Undertale is the dialogue, it's wonderful and the game's selling point. Not even coming close to dispute that. But Genocide sucks gameplay-wise, and not in the intended way. Shortening all areas' kill counts or developing the combat would've gone a long way.

[@gtdfg4594]

@@sablen1319 And making the fights fun but the consequences terrifying would have had a much bigger impact, in that the player is addicted to murdering the entire Underground, instead of making it completely undesirable aside from a few incentives or morbid curiosity.

[@ianleather5699]

It was definitely a pleasant surprise in the first place, that Yahtzee, a guy who didn't care for jrpgs or anime to fall in love with Persona. As a fan of both franchises, I definitely get that most people would like Persona over SMT, but I'm really happy Yahtzee gave smt a try. I'm not upset at all that he doesn't like it as much as persona, since it was pretty expected.

[@simplewatcher9366]

I think it's because of the music persona has some people aren't into turn based combat and the music makes it bearable to people with low attention spans

[@FTZPLTC]

tbh, "I don't like it but it's fine if you do I guess" probably puts it in his top 20 games of the year at least.

[@myrixica4222]

@@FTZPLTC With the games we've gotten over the last year I could see it maybe in his top 5 lmao.

[@ripbooboo8563]

@@simplewatcher9366 I don't like that most people assume it's an attention span issue. I hate turn based combat, but love the shit out of disco elysium, which is a game mostly about reading.

[@StrikeWarlock]

It's mainly because the very aspect of Persona 4 and 5 that he enjoyed contributes to progress in the game. When you're raising your social links, you gain more demons that make the game significantly easier, with more bonuses based on the level of social link. Grinding gets thrown entirely out the window the moment you encounter Golden Hands. For SMT on the other hand, you have to grind hard with nothing else to ease that tedium. Besides the demon negotiations, there's nothing there to really hold his attention. The irony here is that SMT got him to like the very thing he hated in P5 since he didn't like demon collecting, but SMTV did something to make it fun for him.

[@keltzar1]

I can understand a lot of the points he makes but damn I will contest him on the music aspect. SMT V has an absolutely excellent soundtrack.

[@lowhp_comic]

Yeah that's the one debatable point, cause man Ryota's music is SO good in this game. He's even letting out his inner Meguro in some tracks like Seeker lmao

[@chroipahtz]

@@lowhp_comic Kozuka's music is WAY more interesting than Meguro's. There, I said it.

[@dynostretch9215]

Aside from the first half of the second area, the music there sounds like a loud annoying cat who wants it's food.

[@mj1mj3]

Shiva's, Demi-Fiend's, and the one that plays during the Ishtar fight are good. Everything else was just kinda meh.

[@parkerdixon-word6295]

I think it's less SMTV's music being bad and the fact that it's being shot in the foot on arrival by being compared to the Persona games, which ooze personality and theme from every pore, and the music is a big part of that. Persona 4 definitely uses its music to get you into the vibe of smalltown supernatural mystery surprisingly well, and Persona 5's soundtrack is a masterclass in bangers that absolutely nail the stylish vibe they're going for. He doesn't actually talk smack about the soundtrack, it's just not an instantly iconic homerun like the game it naturally invites comparison to.

[@mercurydjinn3366]

I fail to understand why so many people continue to recommend JRPGs to a man who isn't into JRPGs. At least Yahtzee gives them a fair shot, unlike that other reviewer who doesn't like JRPGs, so kudos to that.

[@billybased64]

Should reviewers only reviews games they're guaranteed to like?

[@Lunarice98]

They're hoping to win him over through exposure

[@FamilyTeamGaming]

Which one? Because there are several. Do you you mean Scott the Woz?

[@grfrjiglstan]

@@FamilyTeamGaming He may be referring to the inscrutable Jim Fucking Sterling Son

[@heliusuniverse7460]

i didn't like RPGs until i played SMT, now it's my favorite series

[@KeithFraser82]

"Mummy, that man is reviewing video games." "Don't look at him, Ricky, I don't want you to be influenced by-" "It is too late, Mother. I have seen everything. Now I will put on a trilby and tell the world that Call of Duty is vacuous propagandistic trash." "RICKYYYYYY"

[@kmins71015]

Use your aggressive feelings, Ricky. Let the hate flow through you.

[@robertluceon3461]

You fool, Ricky has ascended to a more correct plane of existence.

[@ArsonRaboot]

Ricky was a young boy!

[@salsamonkey65]

Ok Yahtzee I get liking other aspects of Persona more but implying SMT5 doesn't have good music has scrambled my brain. Still valid points even as a fan

[@ThotBuddle]

He didn't like the P4 soundtrack either

[@BadGrief]

The soundtrack in smt v was actually pretty damn good. Some of the tracks really stand out

[@Ubersupersloth]

@@BadGrief *bopping to the Ishtar battle theme*

[@HollowGolem]

@@Ubersupersloth Ishtar: Goddess of ecstasy. But like, the other one.

[@calebmarshall5739]

@Basil Basildon Yahtzee is a metalhead too pretty sure and so am I but I still prefer the persona games' soundtracks to those of the mainline games I've played

[@espio87]

As a SMT fan I have to say no hard feelings, Yahtzee. I have to admit that the story this time is weaker than in SMT 4 (that game was the shit) but I'm still having a lot of fun. I will admit that some characterizations felt rushed. Abdiel's fanboy went off the deep end too quickly in my opinion. Johnathan descent into madness felt more detailed in SMT 4 and I was more motivated to stop him.

[@V-Jes]

To be fair SMT 4 is also an exception in the mainline series when it comes to story rather than the norm, so saying 5's story isn't as good isn't really saying much.

[@lowhp_comic]

That 1 minute of Dazai going through the 5 stages of character development and then throwing his cap off and slicking his hair back to show how cool he suddenly is is still very funny 😂

[@lowhp_comic]

@@V-Jes the others felt like atmospheric story telling. While the plot in Nocturne wasn't excelling much, the Dungeons and interactions at least revealed more about the nature of the weird Vortex World and the factions goals. But in V, while Da'at looks beautiful, I never really learn anything about it through traversal and I most certainly learn nothing in regards to Bethel or the Demon castle or any of the alignment characters 😂

[@ProjectTony]

@@lowhp_comic I laughed at every scene Dazai was in after his transformation cause after he slicks back his hair he's a completely different character. I was like, "who the hell is this guy now?" Lol Goes to show how bad simping for an angel could get.

[@StrikeWarlock]

And then 4A hijacks the main cast of 4.

[@StrikeWarlock]

As someone who plays both. That ending was the perfect analogy for the SMT vs. Persona crowd. Nocturne made me cry because of the difficulty of the 3rd Kalpa and it's BS damage floors, P5R on the other hand made me cry because I didnt want to see all the characters I grew to love go their separate ways.

[@jasonblalock4429]

And then there's Persona 3, where the difficulty AND the plot can both make you cry. (At least P3FES; P3P less so.)

[@samuelc6246]

At least they both made you cry, isn't that why we play videogames? To escape the tedious joy of the absolutely stress free environment of the real world? Wait... That's not my actual opinion.

[@withnoname31]

@@samuelc6246 Duh, people literally cry because of Persona, you can find many examples on KZbin. Can't say the same for smt.

[@summerycast7936]

@@withnoname31 Wait. Why? Granted I'm not much of a tear jerker, but was the plot that tear worthy? Hell I wonder what kind of expression those people would make it they watched Made in Abyss or Everywhere and Nowhere.

[@KenronTheGamer]

P5's story after thinking about is the worst story in the franchise. Extremely bad pacing and the ending is literally a shitty version of Megami Tensei II'S endgame.

[@thejetstarjump]

2:19 There is a conceivable way of knowing boss strengths. Buy a cheap spyglass. You should have about 20 at any time and use them on every new encounter.

[@FhoenixElderstar]

Yeah, but the point is, you first have to meet the boss, get pounded by it and only then start building a counter for it. If you use a guide to check “next boss uses ice, weak to fire”. It saves you lot of time, because you can build a party while exploring AND beat the boss on the first try. Not that I am advising people to spoil themselves. But he certainly has a point there.

[@chowdaire7343]

@@FhoenixElderstar Or, just make sure you are fusing demons all the time and have a roster that can counter most element types or have valuable heals/debuffs/buffs for any situation. There were only two fights in the entire game where I had to fuse an additional demon or two to counter what they threw at me.

[@crono276]

@@chowdaire7343 Depends on if you play normal or hard

[@jzpowell2108]

@@chowdaire7343 and here I was using brute force to get my way through the game

[@rex_yaldabaoth]

@@crono276 I was playing on hard, and outside of the very first boss, I never had to fuse demons specifically for one boss, just had to swap in the ones that were right for the job, and/or use items. Items are amazingly good, since you get the ability for all party members to use them early (by smt standards), and there's every type of elemental attack in supply. And dampeners are amazing too.

[@drooprtroopr6969]

"Jack Frost, Neko Shogun, the one the looks hauntingly like a penis." Welcome to SMiTee, where every other demon has genitalia.

[@stephenmemelord2303]

and the ones that dont have genetalia, ARE genetalia

[@danielstachowiak568]

Hey come on, they dont *all* look like genitals. Diana is covered in Boobs.

[@boneheaded8919]

@@danielstachowiak568 Old Artemis design calling

[@HollowGolem]

@@danielstachowiak568 Not anymore. Now she looks like a Knight of the Zodiac. The wrist-mounted crossbow is badass.

[@boneheaded8919]

@@HollowGolem that's Artemis

[@DeadSparkMan]

Yahtzee's reaction to SMT fans and how they handle comparisons to Persona went EXACTLY as I expected

[@svenbtb]

As much as i love SMT and Persona, the fanbases for each are utterly intolerable for similar yet vastly different reasons

[@clanofclams2720]

He do be right tho

[@Uniscorn123]

Shin Megami Tensei for Persona fans is in roughly the same position as Sekiro is for Bloodborne fans. They share a lot of the same DNA but they are certainly not the same, and just because you like one does not necessarily mean you're going to like the other. As a fan of all four games mentioned above, I say to each their own. Really looking forward to the new book.

[@StrikeWarlock]

That's a tight analogy to go for mainly because as a guy who also plays Soulsborne, I genuinely think Sekiro is the easiest game in the franchise while I get people who say it's the hardest. I can confidently do no damage run against Sekiro bosses easy (I uploaded Sword Saint damage less in this account) but I can't say the same for Bloodborne and I love that game way more than Sekiro. Soulsborne games are hard based on your skills, while Persona on the other hand is just casualized SMT, even moreso since P4G.

[@StrikeWarlock]

@@omarcomming722 yea, once you realize Sekiro is a rhythm game it becomes insanely easy.

[@Pie_The_Man]

Main thing is is that there is a significant portion of Persona fans, yahtzee included, who just tolerate the JRPG aspects of Persona... which is the main thing that both series have in common. So to that significant portion of Persona players, SMT really is Persona without the aspects you liked about Persona. Like imagine if there were a significant portion of Sekiro players who site the lack of a stamina bar as the only reason they enjoy Sekiro, and that with its inclusion it ruins the rest of the combat for them.

[@cooldud7071]

@@StrikeWarlock More like they're hard based on whether or not you choose to abuse the multitude of easy-mode mechanics such as magic, ranged attacks, summons, consumables, or broken melee builds

[@meteoriting]

Yahtzee: I hate anime Yahtzee: *likes Persona only because of the high school anime stuff* C'mon Yahtz, admit you're a huge weeb already!

[@lowhp_comic]

He subtly admitted he likes watching a certain anime about a crying school boy who has to pilot the giant robot for his daddy

[@hentaiconnoisseur2413]

@@lowhp_comic who does "something" to his comatose friend

[@clarehidalgo]

@@lowhp_comic It is even worse when you realize the giant robot is the school boy's dead mom

[@theomnigamer9177]

LowHP Comic Ok but giant robot animes are like the best ones anime has to offer (in general).

[@WrecklessFantasist]

Yeah he bashed the game. But at least he explained why he didn’t like it, instead of saying Persona is better he actually made an effort to explain why he prefers persona. Plus his criticism with the story is valid

[@melancholyman369]

But OGN also said the same things and explained why, that's hypocritical bro.🤨 you just like Yahtzee.

[@BlackfangDragon]

@@melancholyman369 SMT and Persona aren’t the same thing, which is why trying to compare the two and make those kinds of comments doesn’t work. “Persona without the heart” is just the latest trend of bad comparisons. Like the fact SMTIV was called the “Dark Souls of Persona” itself way back when.

[@WrecklessFantasist]

@@melancholyman369 No, IGN essentially was saying SMT was a stripped down Version of Persona and making extremely bold claims that pissed off the entirety of SMT community. Yahtzee just says, “yeah those things aren’t here and that’s sort of why I don’t like this game” instead of IGN’s “this game doesn’t have those things making it an inferior game to the magnus opus of gaming called P5” We all know Yahtzee is not an RPG guy and SMT is more combat focus which was not the major reason he liked P5

[@lowhp_comic]

@@melancholyman369 he made a historical and art comparison between the two while criticising V's qualities _seperately,_ IGN won't shut up about Persona 5 throughout and makes comparisons to that game rather than how V stands by itself or even compared to previous SMT titles

[@melancholyman369]

@@WrecklessFantasist Yahtzee also calls it a strip down version of persona, while praising what makes it "unique" if you can call it that.

[@cdchai]

Fair assessment. The story is just enough to move you thru the game because the real attractions are the demons and combat. If those don't get you then the subpar visuals aren't going to convince you either. I put 100 hours in it so the gameplay saved it for me.

[@HollowGolem]

Honestly, I think the story is fine, too. But it's not a conventional plot in which the characters and events matter for their own sake. It's a thought experiment more than anything. And that's a WEIRD thing to do for a game's plot (though it's often what SMT does, even in the games with more involved stories like II and IV). Not my favorite SMT story, but certainly not the worst, or even that bad, I think.

[@louish5068]

@@HollowGolem completely agree i think people are making it out to be worse than it is

[@snakeslife-uroborodjinn790]

It's Final Fantasy 13 all over again. Pointless plot, horrible characters and vacant boring worlds but visually stunning environments, good combat and good music.

[@Jaspertine]

My guess is that sacrifices had to be made to get the game finished, and the story suffered as a result. That's based on nothing but speculation, but I can see what they wanted to do with the story, but I don't think they got there. I also put over 100 hours in it. (could not beat Shiva, even with everyone in my party at the level cap). So yeah, safe to say I still had a good time.

[@heinokunzelmann8967]

@@HollowGolem everyone has their opinion, but most of SMT V's characters are both underdeveloped and underutilized. Sometimes it feels like there should be extra scenes that they just left out. And in 2021 a JRPG story with underveloped characters is just bad. Sorry to say

[@themilo1567]

I'm personally always been more of a Shin Megami Tensei fan simply because I prefer the mythological epic storytelling of those games compared to the more down to the earth character based stories of Persona. Since the idea of going to school is significantly less relatable to me than the inevitability of a apocalyptic war between chaos and law destroying human civilization.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

You have a wild life, my friend, how do I join?

[@ForrestFox626]

That's disturbing

[@ericquiabazza2608]

Well, Persona as a "datim sim" like has much more enfasis in character as combat is not always present, like a game where you are normal citicen by day and super hero at night. SMT is more direct and center in its story and combat. Tho ifyou look hard enough you would notice a lot of embariome tal details you miss before. Like digital devil saga 1, with everyone.talking monotony and they eyes glowing with color at certain times.

[@Barholtworld]

Sounds like you're just a complete weirdo

[@starmaker75]

So you live in the Middle East?

[@irispaiva]

Aw, I wanted to him to play Nocturne and get chased around by Dante, just to see what he has to say

[@jvts8916]

Should be noted that the minimal plot is mainly due to the game being largely based on Nocturne, the only SMT game that had a minimalist plot up to that point. 1, 2, If (which would be the best one to go to if you wanted something similar to Persona), IV and especially Strange Journey would all have been great entry points if you wanted a story to go alongside it.

[@HollowGolem]

If... barely has a plot either, to be honest.

[@fictionarch]

Thing about 4 and strange Journey is that the combat is a lot more bare bones visually speaking. Just looking at png's isn't really appealing for someone who doesn't normally like turn based battles like Yahtzee.

[@TheBackwardsLegsMan]

SMT definitely doesn't have the mainstream appeal of Persona, and that's totally okay. It has a target audience, and I don't think anyone who's seen more than 1 of Yahtzee's videos expected him to be in that audience. He pretty much hit the nail on the head - you're either really into the combat or you're not, and that will 80% determine whether or not you like the game. He is wrong about the music though, every SMT and Persona game has a banger soundtrack, and V is no different.

[@ForrestFox626]

I've seen comments that thought otherwise

[@SaberRexZealot]

It’ll get famous eventually. A lot of people have found the greater franchise through Persona which is great

[@vincentlance]

Not going to lie, that he sees SMT as a hollow version of Persona is somehow more surprising than him liking Persona im the first place.

[@danilooliveira6580]

maybe its just SMTV ? I didn't play it, so I don't know. but I imagine a lot of mainline SMTs are a lot more like his cup of tea storywise, I mean, Nocturne is basically a sad post apocalyptic world reminiscent of Dark Souls, Raidou Kuzunoha is basically some classic 80's mystery adventure with demons, and strange journey is.... something I guess.

[@hadynm8622]

He likes persona for the life sim and story aspect, not the turn based tactical gameplay.

[@lowhp_comic]

@@hadynm8622 well he does like how your actions in your daily life sim influence combat though

[@shadowmetroid18]

I've enjoyed smt 5 from what I've played but I've played enough of 5 and nocturne to have the opinion they feel like Persona but much more hostile and bleak.

[@demondays3956]

@@danilooliveira6580 V is deeply rooted in nocturne. if yahtzee disliked V, he won't like nocturne either. IV seems to be more his cup of tea.

[@longdongsilver3267]

Kind of surprised he opted for this instead of Unpacking. The brief times he talked about that game it seemed like he was genuinely enjoying it (and if he was, that'd give him another good game he could pick for his Top 5 of 2021). I mean, he might possibly sneak a review of that game into next week's review of Halo Infinite, but I have a feeling he's going to make full use of that episode to deride the Halo series.

[@rolerroleris533]

Unpacking is a great game, but it's short and there's not much you can say about it. He probably couldn't be bothered to find another game to do a double zp, and i get that, its the holiday season...

[@longdongsilver3267]

@Toan Greenlow He has stated that he likes reviewing games he hates, but he's also gone on record to say he likes reviewing games he really enjoyed as well. It's the mediocre games he hates reviewing

[@TheDSasterX]

One of my favorite running gags is Yahtzee's insistent refusal to say long titles properly 😂

[@DebbieDickens]

Yahtzee: "SMT doesn't have really good music" SMT 4: *laughs in B2*

[@crackedemerald4930]

You're speaking in code

[@theomnigamer9177]

I love the Tokyo theme, the Virtual Battle theme, the Credits theme, and a lot of the “town” themes. I put town in quotes because I don’t how else to describe them. The soundtrack in that game is amazing.

[@dc_dachi]

Nocturne is composed exclusively of bangers

[@Pie_The_Man]

@@crackedemerald4930 b2 refers to the boss battle theme, which have pretty lame names; battle A1, battle A2, Battle B1, Battle B2 etc. Although yes, battle b2 is one of the best battle themes ever constructed for a JRPG alongside battle C2 which I can only describe as the backing track for an adrenaline pumping acid trip.

[@Cherub91]

I appreciate this take because even though I’m someone who prefers SMT over Persona it’s refreshing to see a take from someone who isn’t a massive fan of JRPGs. I absolutely understand that from a story perspective SMT is extremely nebulous and preachy at times but I like that sort of thing but I understand it’s not for everyone.

[@tigerguy529]

Wait... SMT is MORE preachy than Persona? Goddamn, my eyes had almost rolled out of their sockets by the time we reached the collective unconscious that was a literal prison that people were happy to be in. I couldn't help but ironically yell "wake up, sheeple!" at that part.

[@Cherub91]

@@tigerguy529 dude seriously? SMT literally has you decide if you want to side with law or chaos that’s inherently more preachy than kids just wanting to make the world better or stop murders

[@tigerguy529]

@@Cherub91 not disagreeing, just surprised. Havent played SMT myself

[@Cherub91]

@@tigerguy529 you should though the plots can be dark souls like level of inscrutable but they are enjoyable in that lost in another world type of feeling and the difficulty isn’t tied to 5 which if I’m being honest 5 is easily the most accessible than the ones before it

[@louish5068]

@@tigerguy529 smt is nowhere near as bad as persona with that. Persona has awfully obvious analogies for basic concepts whereas smt actually shows you concepts, morals, beliefs etc. In a much more mature and less in your face way

[@vitortrindade5617]

It should be noted about this combat system that it has now a billion quality of life improvements that make the game less frustating and more fun (I'm comparing to Strange Journey Redux, the last one I played) - Reverse compendium fusion, oh baby, it's no longer needed to look up the wiki to figure out what you can fuse - Spyglass item to analyse enemies, no more first encounter with enemies being either throwing stuff and seeing what sticks or a wiki lookup - Demons don't just run away with your items mid negotiation - Ambushing demons give you the chance to pay up to avoid a probable sudden game over - Dark and Light aren't just instakill moves, which made the game even more swingy - Dampner itens help round up resistences - Throwing around moves that hit all the opposition is risky, because a single enemy blocking it is horrible

[@aelechko]

Yeah but after like seven games and five plus personas I’d expect them to have that shit ironed out. They don’t get points for that it’s just what should have happened like a decade ago. I share Yahtzee’s sentiment with SMT. I loved persona 5 and someone at a game stop suggested smt4. And it’s just awful. Characters are bland and unrelatable, dialogue makes no sense, grinding isn’t good game design it’s padding out unnecessarily when the games already over 30 hours, money and upgrades are poorly managed. It’s not even that it’s challenging it just requires grind. If you consider spending lots of time hitting one button so you can get passed a boss without succumbing to insta kill attacks a challenge well friend you are just plain wrong.

[@Andrei-vv4ou]

@@aelechko You're not supposed to grind in SMT, you're supposed to ditch your demons to get stronger ones periodically, most of the time you can beat bosses even if you're like 10 levels behind them if you're good enough, just spam buffs and debuffs and make sure you're not weak to anything they use, and maybe make sure you have some moves that they are weak to as well.

[@chavaspada]

@@aelechko you don't need to grind in IV. Unironically git gud at teambuilding

[@stormsand9]

@@aelechko so i guess no game with multiple games in the franchise gets points for constantly evolving the gameplay? lmao

[@firstnamelastname7244]

@@aelechko I'm sorry, that's just an awful take.

[@hunterlord101]

Honestly I think SMT IV nailed having a compelling beginning to get you into the story- albeit at the cost of taking awhile to get going. Not as badly as the newer Persona games, but it was pretty cool and unique. SMT V is like "whoa you followed a guy in the tunnel now its collapsed and whoa, demon world" At least it gets you into the meat of the game quick

[@lowhp_comic]

It also helps that you get to travel with your human allies and thus get to know them better, means they get to develop naturally and you can even see them fight, while V you never see any of your allies fight, because you are always seperated from them :(

[@chillhour6155]

Yahtz you were way too nice and polite with us in this review, please never change and shit on all our favourite games equally, thank you A fan

[@PkmnMT]

To be fair, SMTV in particular has terrible (or mostly nonextistent) characters. Strange Journey and IV both had great stories and characters in comparison

[@zigmus00A]

SMTIV would probably be more up his alley since it manages a nice middle ground between persona and traditional smt

[@Zuhri69]

Lol, yup. Was about the same as my expectation. But worse music? You take that back!!

[@zoedorrahm]

Why do people keep saying SMT 5 doesn't have good music?

[@kingnickg4268]

Idk why, smt does have good music (either mainline or persona)

[@yomama4240]

Becuase reviewers have shit taste

[@redcapote]

probably something to do with direct comparisons to persona, which showers the player with lots of different songs right from the start first few hours of SMTV and you'll hear only like two or three memorable songs, yhatzee (and the general public) will drop games early on so the first impression might have left him cold

[@Brian-tn4cd]

Because the Persona fanboys barely appreciate non vocal tracks

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Because it doesn't. Most of its tracks are forgettable by the standards of the series. There are maybe four or five tracks in the game that I would genuinely consider good, Konan 2nd Block, for example, and none of those are really fantastic, compared to the audio experience of SMT 3, 4, 4A, either Devil Survivor, Strange Journey, Raidou Kuzunoha, Soul Hackers, really, take your pick. It's one of the weakest SMT soundtracks by a good margin. Like, it's better than Persona 3's music. That's about it. But Persona 3 actually just has bad music, no "by SMT standards" required, so that isn't saying much. We're talking boss music from SMT 5 being less thrilling than random encounters in SMT 4. When I try to think of a good track from SMT 4, or Devil Survivor 1, it's hard to pick just one. When I try to think of a good track from SMT 5, it's quite easy, because there's only like a couple choices.

[@Tanuvein]

Persona 3 was a lot of fun, but other than that I've always liked the SMT main series better. Devil Survivor and Digital Devil Saga were both fantastic as well. I love the bigger focus on mythology and befriending demons and gods.

[@lowhp_comic]

I wonder if one of the bad story parts with V was to do with the school-student protagonist? All the other MCs are adults except for Nocturne and Nocturne's students are not attending school at that point, neither do they return to it. Makes me think the P5 fans playing V for the first time will get far lest investment because the story ignores them for the majority of the time

[@StrikeWarlock]

Also Tartarus isnt a great gaming loop, unfortunately. Even moreso for P3FES where you can't even control your own teammates. Like Mitsuru you're hot as fuck but please be useful and stop casting Marin Karin.

[@realtalk13]

my issue with all of the smt games is that the plot is always about a world being destroyed, a fight between chaos/order (progress/stagnation however you want to call it), with you the player as the one lynchpin that can sway the outcome either way (or a third middle road option). If the player character was an actual character vs a blank slate, then I'd at least get the entertainment of seeing how these different characters deal with similar situations. But that's not happening.

[@invisibleair2156]

@@charnalk5572 we hope to get smt 1 and 2 levels of storywriting again

[@Rafael1984]

The world need a remaster of Digital Devil Saga.

[@ordinaryhuman5645]

Mara will always be a top-tier demon in my heart, because I giggle a bit every time I see him.

[@endarkculi]

Fair criticisms, good wit, and everything wrapped up in about six minutes. A review certainly worthy of a thumbs-up. Here's hoping that everyone has some Happy Holidays!

[@takuansoho5836]

And happy holidays to you too, pal o/

[@AirahsELL]

Honestly it's an even worse assessment than the slop IGN put out, but it's justified by Yahtzee admitting he isn't much for the genre aside from Persona.

[@laughingmask3118]

That is Zero Punctuation, yes.

[@supesmin446]

@@AirahsELLand even then, he seems to only truly like the worst one

[@avee2056]

Not being tortured by 20 hours of cutscenes first is indeed exactly why I want to play SMT instead. I just wanna fight.

[@trslim6032]

Its funny because I ended up enjoying SMT more than persona because it doesn't have the extraneous stuff that gets in the way of my demon slaughtering. Like, I don't care that you wanna be a movie star, Ann, I just wanna kill these guys.

[@Superduperpeoples]

@@trslim6032 This is my problem with games that try to feature the plot and character development more- they need to be good. Ann was really a terrible, empty character, as was most of the cast (especially Haru) aside from Futaba and maybe Makoto.. and the plot also wasn't great. Persona 4 completely blows 5 out of the water in that regard and it all comes together more nicely. It makes it easier to enjoy Persona 4 as a different game. I believe that if Ann wanting to be a movie star was written to be more compelling, you would not have felt like your time was being wasted reading/listening to it. When looking at Persona 5...yeah, why wouldn't I just play SMT 5 instead and skip the BS?

[@KenronTheGamer]

@@Superduperpeoples Also the endgame is literally a shitty version of Megami Tensei II's endgame.

[@nickdixon1597]

Yahtzee, I've been listening to your eloquent rants for the better part of two decades now. I rarely comment to creators, but I just want you to know that I'm constantly impressed by the creativity you display after such a long time of working in the same limited format. If anyone else were asked to make these same 5 minute reviews for 15+ years while maintaining a consistant style and personality, with the right balance of cynicism, irony, self reference and most imoprtantly -new jokes-... Well I'm beginning to ramble but I just really want to say thanks for the mountains of laughter you've brought me over the years. :)

[@skydivisionx]

SMT V went for an ambience type approach with it's music, as you traverse through da'at to explore, it sets the tone as you're wandering around an apocalyptic landscape, that's basically a battleground for demons and angels. I know it's a little jab to make the video funny, but there are tons of tracks from SMT that are unforgettable, tracks from 1, 2, 3, 4, DeSu, DDS, Raidou etc. They all have good soundtracks that are on par with Persona. I can't help but think most people are trying to push the "smt never had good story" narrative, when in reality, they're centered around story based mythology that corresponds to your choices with alignment and much more. The big issue with SMT V isn't the story, but the lack of fleshed out characters that interact to build on the story. Given that this is Atlus's first big SMT game on a console in a while, they most likely played it safe and will expand on it later for the next games. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, play what you enjoy and love, but to think that SMT doesn't have bangers or a story, isn't true at all.

[@kurozunakabuto9682]

*sees next week is Shin Megami Tensei 5* me: This doesn't seems like a Yahtzee game *Yahtzee explain why he touch the game* Me: that explains it

[@alan62036]

And yet we still can't bully him into trying Danganronpa. XD

[@MultiBoxingKid]

@@alan62036 I mean, it’s been a few years since the last game that wasn’t a spin-off, there’s no point in doing it now. Only way he would review the game is for a re-release, remaster or whatever of the trilogy.

[@SageofStars]

Yeah...gameplay wise, this is a similar, but not the same idea, but who the hell would recommend this to a Persona fan? Especially 5, which was very entry level friendly, laying out the plot and characters for you in the way of an anime or series. Meanwhile, this is like the OVA movies. You CAN watch them on their own, but they expect you to be invested in the world without them having to do any of that legwork, so just showing the cool stuff is enough. I'm not saying it's bad, I am saying it's different. In point of fact, I find SMTV far more playable than Persona 5/5R.

[@kurozunakabuto9682]

SMTV for Gameplay Persona 5 for Story and Yahtzee has says RPG are never his thing

[@koifish835]

I started with Persona 5 , played all the other ones, and I'm still loving SMT V. It comes down to why someone liked Persona, I enjoy the RPG elements so of course I'm gonna like a game that focuses entirely on that. Yahtzee liked Persona despite the RPG stuff so no way would mainline SMT appeal to him.

[@SageofStars]

@Mac mcskullface Indeed, though I will say, plot wise, I think Nocturne is better at presenting its characters. You can tell SMTV went through a load of revisions and rewrites. Heck, given just the cover you can tell that, as Hayataro takes up a huge bit of the cover, and half the players might forget who he is.

[@SageofStars]

@@kurozunakabuto9682 Basically, yeah.

[@SageofStars]

@@koifish835 Yeah, that pretty much. Still surprised he liked Ys IX of all things from earlier in the year, but I think the intrigue plot helped him there.

[@JrystalTyaeli]

As someone who really likes JRPGs I've also had the problem with SMT fans recommending it to Persona fans without understanding what makes Persona more popular and mainstream than SMT. In the Final Fantasy community I have the same problem with Tactics, everyone recommends it to everyone even tacitly into FF and very few actually get into it because it's a very different kind of beast to main series FF games.

[@vintheguy]

I thought one of the main problems is the fact that most of the smt games weren't released in the last 5 years unlike person which had 5 and 5 royal That in addition to the fact that it's a monster collection game, the (usually) darker atmosphere and the fact that you probably have to research yourself in order to find out what's the different between main line and not main line is

[@Pie_The_Man]

Honestly as a megaten fan who desperately tries to get people to try SMT, I'd say at least for people like me its because we desperately want to meet other people who share this niche interest. This review strikes a certain chord in my heart because it rings the truth that I know all too well, that it's pretty unlikely that I'll ever meet someone who shares the same interest in this series that I do. I feel like any sort of elitism that arises from the fanbase is just a sad emotional outburst from this rejection.

[@aleaiactaest6503]

The games get recommended so often because at the heart of SMT is something special every JRPG fan should experience at least once

[@looney1023]

Idk I genuinely think most smt fans are understanding of the fact that persona is the MegaTen gateway drug. I can see smt fans being gatekeepy about the series but most smt fans I've encountered genuinely like both series and know not to recommend to persona fans without proper warning. As a long time fan I genuinely find it's the die hard persona fans who denigrate SMT unfairly for not having Persona's unique gameplay features

[@TheCreepypro]

love it when yahtzee keeps it real to the detriment of the fan boys

[@darkhorse744]

Looks like Yahtzee never found out about the Spyglasses.

[@yomama4240]

1:04 "SMT is Persona without the really good music". Words cannot describe how much that irritated me bruh. I never understood how reviewers seem to think that SMT has bad music, or god forbid that it's somehow worse than Persona's. I also really hate the constant comparisons, it feels really disingenuous and derivative of SMT.

[@HollowGolem]

To be fair, SMT music tends towards the electronic, metal, or just hard-to-define-by-genre. Persona is much more mainstream stuff like hip-hop, pop, and acid-jazz.

[@SmoothTeeVee]

Man that's like saying it's bad to compare Pokemon to the Mystery Dungeon spinoffs. Yeah they're different, but by their nature spinoffs invite comparison to the original series. And in the case of Mystery Dungeon the difference is actually larger than it is between SMT and Persona. Yahtzee's right, you SMT fans are defensive about this stuff.

[@HUNbullseye]

But it has objectively worst music than Persona. 14,5 times worst to be precise...

[@yomama4240]

@@HUNbullseye Bruh

[@yomama4240]

@@SmoothTeeVee The problem I have isn't that the comparisons exist in the first place, the problem is that people will solely base their criticism of SMT on how similar it is to Persona and diminish the differences between the series as just "SMT is Persona without social links" as opposed to actually judging based on it's own strengths and weaknesses. Regardless of Persona being a spinoff or not, that's just not a good way a criticising videogames.

[@MachePatate3000]

“Smt is persona without the music” My man never heard SMT 4 ost.

[@looney1023]

Even SMT5 has excellent music too. I mean it's not earworm music, but I'm suprised Yahtzee couldn't appreciate it given the more minimalist, atmospheric approach

[@BlackfangDragon]

The Final Boss song changing only on one ending does sadden me, cause I loved the second song that plays for it.

[@michaeld3195]

I love Yahtzee shitting on things while also complimenting and explaining at the same time 😂

[@kenpachielric]

At least he didn't mention wonderwall for random guitar guy playing a song

[@UncleJaken]

I can agree with most of his points, except the music. That shit is a banger and Yahtzee clearly has his ears stuffed with too much body-pillow stuffing to notice

[@Tustin2121]

I mean, he also hated the music in The Return of the Obrin Dinn, a game he loved everything else about. And that music was amazing too. So clearly he just has bad taste in video game music.

[@ababilashari9970]

@@Tustin2121 smt4 had better music 5 was generic af

[@akirathewildcard9625]

@@ababilashari9970 ahhh I see someone else with poor taste as well

[@Degalon]

@@Tustin2121 he did say he turned off the music in Metal Gear Rising. So yes, Yahtzee just has bad taste in game music.

[@Pie_The_Man]

@@akirathewildcard9625 IV's OST hits fuckin 10x harder than V's does. The only song I go back to for V is the credits theme, and even then the first 20 seconds outweigh the rest of it. V ain't bad, it's just a C tier, maybe B tier megaten soundtrack. Like people praising this shit like it's at all close to Soul Hackers, Megaten 2, Majin Tensei 2, DDS2 or SMT IV's ost like dude did you play any other games aside from Persona?

[@davestertm6498]

"Go eternal conflict yourself" is such a great phrase

[@WillTheGreatest]

I appreciate yahtzees continued transparency that his experience with a good jrpg experience is still an abnormality so while im a jrpg fan i still find his criticisms coming from a place of trying something out of his wheelhouse.

[@jeschoofs]

“You anime fans are like drug dealers you are” Immediately subscribed

[@Vherstinae]

I was disappointed in SMT5 because I really enjoyed 4. The initial third of that game steadily ramps up the uncanny valley and leaves you to understand that something wrong and strange is going on, something that the player will realize but none of the characters do because it's their life. You get to relate more to the characters and experience actual arcs, where schoolyard rivalries are set aside in favor of serious combat and deeper philosophical issues. I never felt the urge to try out Persona but I might just give it a shot.

[@Mrinsecure]

While I have a place in my heart for SMT's broody freshman-year philosophy/theology, Persona is definitely the series I connected with more on an emotional level, and I feel like SMT could stand to learn a thing or two from its more popular sibling.

[@brandonontama2415]

@Kimgozer Because they did it poorly.

[@Khint]

As a SMT fan, i get why Persona is closer to most people's hearts. I just like the challenge that Persona doesn't really give. I recommend playing at least one SMT game, and if you don't like it, it's fine by me! Everybody plays for different reasons.

[@hadynm8622]

Tactical turn based just doesn't do it for me without a substantial story backing it up, that or if it's an xcom style tactical game.

[@Pie_The_Man]

I mean, yahtzee really doesn't seem like he's ever going to enjoy any megaten games other than the modern persona games, as they're specifically engineered to pander to people who do not like JRPGs. Like, maybe he might enjoy a series like devil survivor maybe? Maybe the more cinematic character focus design of Digital Devil Saga might appeal to him more? But honestly it's probably not worth his time.

[@nicklager1666]

Curious if Yahtzee has been a good boy this year. It will decide if he gets cadbury eggs or spunkgargleweewee games in his christmas stockings.

[@AtrumDelorox]

He made it perfectly clear in his P5/P4 reviews why he liked Persona. So why did anyone even think for a single second that he would like SMT? It seemed painfully obvious he wouldn't if you have so much as a passing familiarity with SMT 🤦 Still thrilled he was forced to play SMT though. Go professional responsibilities!

[@shibalady206]

“You have to imagine the crossfades obviously” … that backhanded compliment had a fistful of knuckles, it did.

[@Jaspertine]

I'm assuming this game had a troubled development. It's the only explanation for how it's so amazing and so questionable at the same time.

[@dustydesert9701]

Considering it basically disappeared for 3 years after the switch presentation it probably did

[@mr.e9502]

Safe to assume that Wish You Were Here’s the English equivalent to Wonderwall. Both are great, but if you’re gonna play it safe, then I’ll assume it’s because you can’t play more than two or three chords, and you never bothered to go past THAT particular lesson.

[@Pikaman20008]

My only complaint is that he has a problem with the demons being called demons and not personas even though they’re the exact same. But that logic is flawed since SMT came first and Persona is the thin coat of paint name. That just kinda irked me a bit. Other than that yeah I can get why you wouldn’t like this, it’s not for everyone but I still think this is a great game.

[@StrikeWarlock]

They're called Personas in Persona because they literally are Personas. They're demons in SMT because they're literally demons. There's a reason why you don't see Stephen in the Persona series.

[@Pikaman20008]

@@StrikeWarlock Yes that is my point.

[@TheRemster]

I'm certain he's doing it on purpose to tease the audience. He knows SMT came first.

[@Pikaman20008]

@@TheRemster It’s hard to tell sometimes what’s his actual opinions and what’s him taking the piss out of people. Usually it’s both

[@dimanoetske6303]

@@StrikeWarlock persona has demons too. I'm not sure what your point was.

[@tylerdabish9248]

4:51 Honestly, that sums up Chaos routes pretty well.

[@BlendyStick]

Interesting that he seemed to think that the law/chaos conflict was a good vs evil thing when the heart of SMT is that each side is as bad as the other.

[@demondays3956]

to be fair, the neutral state of the ideological conflict isn't made apparent enough until the summit, and even after that, you may still need to think about it before you, as a newbie, finally get it. V doesn't realy convey it well to the newcommer audience, since you spend half the game working for YHVH's devotees.

[@BlackfangDragon]

I’m surprised there wasn’t a snide remark about having to do the God vs Devil war again despite Lucifer showing up, says he killed God, and then explodes a second later.

[@Kneevirus]

Take a shot everytime yathzee says persona

[@MilanousMedia]

I remember going to watch this last Wednesday. Saw the advert for the audio book, geeked out and went and bought it and forgot to watch the video

[@Arexion5293]

He did summarise it pretty well. SMT is the more demanding jrpg with more focus and depth put onto the gameplay and the writing is more about exploring the world building, the ideas and philosophy rather than characters, as those characters could really be anyone really as their purpose is to just represent one of the philosophical ideas which gets explored from different perspectives. If that isn't your cup of tea, you probably won't get much out of these games. But if that sounds interesting, you will get plenty of mileage out of these games. I personally can't even touch Persona games anymore after being introduced to the Press Turn system and the far more nuanced writing that seems to actually care for its world building.

[@rawalshadab3812]

Thanks. This comment made me realize SMTV would be precisely my cup of tea and why Yahtzee doesn't like it. Gonna probably pick it up.

[@ForrestFox626]

Press turn?

[@Arexion5293]

@@ForrestFox626 SMT 3 introduced the Press Turn system to the franchise. Basically you get a turn icon for every team member you have, and bosses get at least 2 by default. If you pass a turn to the next in line, hit a weakness or land a crit, you only consume a half turn. If you miss or the attack gets nullified, you lose 2 turns, and getting drained/reflected consumes all turns. This rule applies to both you and the enemies, so you will always form strategies around this system. And usually you will have more than one strategy in mind since your team members are quite flexible in what roles they can play. The more adaptable your team is, the more likely you can survive.

[@ForrestFox626]

@@Arexion5293 I need to play a game, I'm kind of confused

[@robbywilliamson4152]

I've enjoyed the SMT games that I've played, but I wish they did more to make me care about the characters. I also feel like they don't delve into their philosophical concepts as much as I would like.

[@jmiquelmb]

Yahtzee complaining about not being able to know elemental strengths and weaknesses. I see that someone didn’t read the spyglass description

[@yoso378]

You don't know them in persona either until you defeat them just like in SMT 5 so I'm not sure what that complaint is about lol

[@EnkiDootDoot]

Well, he’s half right. SMTV’s music is lacking…assuming you’re deaf

[@connortremblay1259]

"You have to imagine the crossfades obviously" I know a guy EXACTLY like this

[@emanueltorres894]

Always good to see a review from yatsee, it makes me smile no matter what.

[@lovaszaron3138]

Tokyo being a magical Japanese Los Angeles is going to be my simplest explanation.

[@silverman1601]

the story of SMT V really is the weakest in the franchise. I’d check out SMT IV if you’d like to see a version of this with an interesting plot.

[@srbrant5391]

"Girls with obvious personal issues." "I gently open the door..."

[@0verRock17]

The difference between this and Like A Dragon is that the Yakuza series is full of random, quirky bullshit. And that Persona like energy is present in the core loop.

[@snailetiquette]

Rumor has it that the very early SMT inspired ZUN when he was doing character design for either Touhou 1 Highly Responsive to Prayers or Touhou 6 Embodiment of Scarlet Devil (Can't remember which)

[@TheErikusan]

Sounds to me like Yahtz can't tell a green field from a cold steel rail or a smile from a veil. Did they get him to trade his heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? Cold comfort for change?

[@Thecuregalore94]

It seems that SMT and Persona are just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year. Running over the same old ground, what have they found?

[@Thraim.]

1:04 This isn't the first time Yahtzee showed us the Ichinose Chizuru dakimakura. Is there something you want to tell us, pal?

[@HollowGolem]

Not surprised, given his history with JRPGs that he wasn't a fan, but I will not accept this soundtrack slander. The music in this game slaps HARD. The Tokyo map theme, about half the battle themes, Konan 3rd Block, Fairy Village. Fire soundtrack. WEIRD soundtrack, that defies being classified into a genre the way Persona 5's "Mostly acid jazz" aesthetic does, but still great music. Not sure what he's smokin' on that one.

[@RichardLester]

Always compared the overall SMT series as instrumentals rather than a traditional band so if Yahtzee ain't fully into instrumentals on their own then it's likely not gonna appeal to him the way the Persona games had both instrumentals and vocal songs. While SMT 5 definitely has strong tracks (especially compared to 4) it's more appealing to some than others

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Honestly. SMT V's music is booty cheeks by SMT standards. The only music I've kinda liked so far is Konan 2nd Block, and the general vibe of the third netherworld section. And those are good tracks, but this is competing with the soundtracks to SMT4 and 4A, Strange Journey, and Devil Survivor, y'know? Not one boss theme has stuck in my head. Not one. The one you first hear with snake girl, Nuwa, I think, is okay, but, it only barely passes. Some of them are less hype than random overworld encounter music from SMT 3, 4, and 4A, man.

[@Lance_G]

This has to be the funniest plot summary I've ever heard - the droll dry delivery of such nonsensical words strung together with literal accuracy hit me harder than usual 😂 probably because it sounds like you're describing a fever dream 🤷‍♂️

[@DullEyes100]

This video made me realize how fast Yahtzee's regular review voice is.

[@Nikkerman]

I'm the same way as someone who loved the persona games for being lite on turn based combat, I just couldn't see myself playing any smt games. However I recently mustered up the courage to play SMT3 nocturne and It definitely struck a chord with me even though I wouldn't think that it would, and that's because it nails every single other element of the game around the turn based battles, and the deamons are even more interconnected with the world than 5, aaaalso cause it has a cooler protagonist and features Dante from the devil may cry series.

[@NekoiNemo]

Protagonist would've gotten a lot of points in my eyes if he just said "Fuck the Bible Brigade - i'm siding with the big horny red dude who already conquered Tokyo. He clearly has things figured out"

[@themilo1567]

To be fair, that is probably a option eventually.

[@ToyKeeper]

This series will forever be known as Megaman's Shiny Testicles.

[@NarendraU23]

Persona music isn't better than SMTV, I think they're both great. It's just that Persona adheres more to a particular genre than SMT, mainly jazz music (hence the joke : Persona invented jazz). SMT has a more experimental, horror, religious sound to it, which is understandably not the kind of music you'll found in your local radio station.

[@jmurray1110]

Technically it’s acid jazz Also yeah religious music tend to make people turn off Remember the reactions to “I believe in G O D, don’t believe in T H O T”

[@LordlyWeeb]

How in the world do you think the music isn't good? It's awesome. Kozuka does as much of a good job composing as Meguro does.

[@Thecuregalore94]

Yes, of course, Weeb Lord. Your opinion is unquestionable in your unbiased and objective wisdom.

[@blackback2500]

@@Thecuregalore94 he's right though, for a start SMT has more than a single battle jpop theme

[@LordlyWeeb]

@@Thecuregalore94 You can poke fun at my username all you like, Kozuka is an amazing composer and does great work. And considering that I got into this franchise with Persona 4, I should be biased towards Meguro's music. Yet here I am saying they're both good.

[@LordlyWeeb]

@@blackback2500 As someone who's listened to Reach out for the Truth and Time to Make History for hours outside of Persona 4, this isn't really a problem

[@louish5068]

@@Thecuregalore94 his opinion is in favour of the less anime-esque game though so your weeb lord point is null lol

[@juanfranciscovillarroelthu6876]

That guitar analogy was oddly specific

[@hesmycat]

Persona represents an opposite to mainline in a way. For example, persona is more about characters, and tensei is more about ideas. Persona has 80 hours of text and smt has 80 hours of gameplay

[@yoso378]

It's why I was able to recommend it to my brother's friend. He liked Persona's gameplay and aesthetics but really didn't enjoy the abundance of dialog scenes and social sim stuff. He is enjoying SMT a lot more!

[@elijahz7019]

I mean, I could make an argument Persona is a lot about ideas too.

[@hoodedman6579]

Persona has 80 hours of text and 80 hours of gameplay; P5 never fucking ends and Royal only made it longer.

[@DrWub]

Yahtzee says he's not into jrpgs but the amount of them he's played this year is curious

[@HollowGolem]

This has been a JRPG-heavy year.

[@DrWub]

@@HollowGolem true, lots of great ones too.

[@Stairmaster_]

I'm a person who loves anime RPGs and I still couldn't get into SMTV without getting bored after a few hours. Aside from the demons there's just really nothing there in my opinion.

[@USMC49er]

The storytelling in SMT vs Persona is different on a human level. Persona focuses on the individual whereas SMT focuses on humanity as a whole. Like Dr Manhattan vs Rorschach.

[@justinianthe1st790]

This never made sense to me. If you're gonna tell me a story about humanity as a whole, you need that story to make people care about humanity. Individual characters are what is necessary for that story to matter. We already have a SMT game that did this relatively well. Strange Journey. The fact SMT V didnt learn from SJ is really annoying. Characterization is and will always matter in an rpg. Even if that RPG might tell a story that's unusual.

[@nickelakon5369]

I think 4 had the best balance. You really do get close to your samurai comrades. There's quite a few characters you get to learn about in it. I think Apocalypse leaned into it too hard so I guess V must have brought the pendelum back.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Yee. My favorite is Nocturne for this reason. First, while it's my personal favorite ending, the True Demon Ending actually ruined Nocturne. The entire point of Nocturne is using the power and responsibility given to you to guide the end decision in a way you think will work out best. Throwing a tantrum because you don't get YOUR way gets you laughed at by God, and trying to set things back gets you called a coward, and told that all you've done is remove yourself from the equation the next time it happens. The game sits you down, puts a gun to your head, and says "Pick one of these flawed options for humanity, based entirely on your own limited, insufficient, and entirely subjective understanding of things. Don't fuck this up, all of creation is relying on you" And the beautiful thing is, the game deliberately sidestepped the Order vs Chaos routes, and just gave you three greys. It's about people, and perception, and how one can even be expected to hold the weight of that. There's no right or wrong answer, and the game gives you time to mull it over. Frankly, I don't think a game like Nocturne could be made today. Too many people wouldn't be able to handle not being able to have THEIR ending, when the game makes it clear you get to pick, not make, and relies on that anguish of not having better choices for its driving emotion. SMT 4 hits a bit of a similar note with how it leans into multiple playthroughs, as it becomes more and more understood what The White are actually talking about, and it gets harder to disagree with this Stupid Evil distraction plot the first time. You see the suffering actually repeat. And this culminates in 4A's Anarchy ending, where the through line, from A to B, where B is a world not condemned to suffer is drawn, if you have the resolve and courage to do what it takes to get there, and how far is too far if the result is actual, genuine peace and a world of joy. I feel like a lot of people miss that about the Anarchy ending, and just see it as the dumb edgelord ending. I feel like people miss the deliberate message in Asahi, the one person that actually cares about you for you, and not you for what you represent to them, being removed from the consequence pool of your choice means. The only modern Persona story that comes close is the P3P female protagonist's story, that reframes the plot as an expansion and rebuttal to the heavy handed lesson of the base game that Aigis learns. Aigis is still wondering about the potential of life in the abstract, while, much more than the male protagonist, the female one's much more about showing what was done with this one, with the game's writing twisting to be less about what you get from these relationships, and more what you were able to do with a doomed life, the people you were able to help and stitch back together.

[@lowhp_comic]

@@nickelakon5369 Apocalypse had a good start with Asahi getting the most development naturally since she's there at the start, but most of the later party members are very one dimensional and the freedom route feels painful for me to play lmao

[@justinianthe1st790]

@@nickelakon5369 I mean...kinda? Their characterization was still really poor. Its better than this game. But that's not saying much. I think the only writing SMT 4 did really well was the world building. It does a good job selling me on Tokyo and there being an entire kingdom above Tokyo. The factions that exist seem convincing too. But all MT games have great world building. Even if SMT V arguably might have the worst. Its just...the story is really bad, and the characters motivations are bizarre? Jonathan choosing to genocide Tokyo will never not be dumb. Like buddy if you want there to be peace there are other ways to do it, and no, eternal peace cant exist, especially under mikados system. Walter is just a sociopath (almost all chaos "heroes" are sociopaths) and his desire for equality and merit involves unga bunga might makes right which...inevitably will lead to order. It doesn't help that SMT *never* gives a good argument for these things. Other MT games like DS does this so much better so why cant SMT? Side note, there really should be an option clowning these two and say "you two are actual stupid maniacs" but since the game thinks I'm invested in them, I cant. Having said all of this, SJ has good characters. It makes sense to see how they end up. But the game makes it clear they all have gone off the deep end. SJR fixed this by making them not insane weirdos. I really wish SMT V did what SJ did.

[@ahvin4764]

There's a large flaw in Yahtzees review. He called SMTs combat the stripped down version of persona when it's the other way around. What persona gives is your standard anime plot with good characters but SMT tries to go for a more philosophical view on the world in general. Characters are not characters, they are a way in which you understand a point of view which you must ultimately pick. The map is also pretty nice once you get used to it

[@louish5068]

Also he called smt unfair in the livestream of him playing it, when in reality smt is as fair as it gets. Persona gives the player far too many advantages over the enemy

[@smtandearthboundsuck8400]

@@louish5068 He simply sucks at jrpgs and hates them. He needs to stay away from them. Smt 5 is litterally easier (and much fairer) than Persona 3 so that claim makes 0 sense.

[@louish5068]

@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 p3 isnt harder its just more grindy and less well balanced. I probably had more trouble with p3 but i sucked at jrpgs then whereas with V im pretty good at jrpgs now

[@smtandearthboundsuck8400]

@@louish5068 I guess you are right. Smt 5 is difficult but in a healthy manner. P3 just throws at you ‘grind more’ roadblocks and has a laughable difficulty balance and curve. Tartarus bosses being harder than Full moon bosses for one. And tactics is the definition of unfair. It’s all betting on allies doing exactly what you want based on vague orders, and they might sometimes directly disobey them. It’s fine when you get all the tactic commands but at the start it’s rough. And it’s just really bad design, who enjoys spending 3/4 of every fight doing absolutely nothing and just watching the game play itself? Artificial difficulty vs Real difficulty. Smt (in most cases) is the latter. Ever wondered why we don’t often see ‘low level ‘ challenges in persona? It’s always the mean hardcore dark souls of rpg that gets challenged that way. Even the few persona related challenges are always played on the easiest version and really disappointing. Wow, starter persona only? Interesting! Result : they play the babified versions and feed them with skill cards and stat booster. To the point that it didn’t feel like a challenge at all. Nocturne low level ? Now that’s entertaining.

[@ForrestFox626]

That sound kind of boring

[@drumo2273]

Oh nice, another episode of "Yahtzee reminds JRPG fans yet again that he's not a fan of JRPGs and Persona was one of *very* few exceptions." Seriously though, as a huge SMT fan I knew from the jump he wouldn't enjoy it much because it has literally everything he dislikes about RPGs and none of what he enjoyed about Persona. Still glad he played it though, and gave actual criticism on it unlike *some people.* Now then, we can finally move on and pester Yahtz to play and heavily review Link's Crossbow Tra--

[@firstnamelastname7244]

Yeah, I agree. I didn't want him to review this game for this exact purpose lol.

[@ggez3109]

Most of his criticism is fair but to be honest this SMT is very regular regarding characters, plot and even the amount of demons. It hurts to see yahtzee use a image of SMT IV for mocking when that game was in the freaking 3DS and even then managed to pull a reallt big world, good and mostly mature story and gameplay(yes even with the smirk sistem).

[@wood1066]

If the only SMT game you've played is Nocturne then sure. 1,2,4, and 4:apocalypse definitely handled story and characters better then Nocturne and 5.

[@Canadiansamurai]

Still a more respectable review than IGN's

[@BadGrief]

Are you nerds still salty about that? Get over it lol.

[@kingnickg4268]

Didn't they gave it a 8/10?

[@tylerallen6435]

I definitely understand why people didn't love the way the reviewer phrased things. However I don't feel like there's anything wrong with comparing it to Persona since a. they share a lot of assets/mechanics and b. people are just generally more familiar with Persona. They also gave it a good score which is nice, since it might convince people who have only played Persona to give it a shot.

[@Canadiansamurai]

@@kingnickg4268 But they did nothing but complain how it isn't Persona 5, even calling it "Persona without the heart"

[@Canadiansamurai]

@@omarcomming722 Nah, I'm a way bigger Persona fan than a mainline SMT fan.

[@jackknight5059]

Saying that Persona has "deeper gameplay design" is the most unhinged opinion that Yahtzee has ever had

[@jerm70]

I guess if you consider the stealth system maybe? But even that isn't worth writing home about.

[@VicStrange9]

Holy shit, he actually nailed every single complaint I have about Shin Megami Tensei V. I dont know how we got to the point where "actually having an engaging plot and story is for girls" on FUCKING RPGS.

[@aquamarinerose5405]

Despite never having played SMT OR Persona, I feel like the Guitar VS Guitar Hero bit at the end feels like such a perfectly succinct description of the differences between the two games. SMT is a deeper, grittier experience where you have to put a lot more into it and really blister your fingers in the process of making music with it in a way that those who have actually put the time and effort into it will show a deep appreciation for... Yet, is much less likely to really enthrall a casual viewer (although, learning an instrument is more likely to get casual viewers excited by your own skill in a way that SMT won't) Persona is the lighter, much easier to understand experience where you're thrown into a world of spectacle and excitement that's easy on the eyes and able to enthrall a casual viewer instantaneously through its its bright colors, simple to understand 5 button + strum-bar system that makes it more Instantaneously FUN. And then, much like those who have put days and months and years of effort into learning Guitar, when their audience would rather just watch some dude play that bright and colorful facsimile, the SMT fans feel somewhat left out by the droves of people who have never even HEARD of SMT and assume it's a crappy spinoff of Persona, when they see it for what it is, the dolled up high-octane imitator that somehow managed to capture more attention than the original. Granted, I'll admit that I find SMT to be interesting regardless because of how it's such a piece of history, from back when games could get away with this kind of Slow Methodical Excel Spreadsheet deal because they WEREN'T aiming for general audiences, they were aiming for the kinds of players that would dive deep into hundreds of hours of optimization to build the perfect team of Personas for any given situation. Which I can't help but respect them taking a risk putting something like that out in 2021.