5/15/24 Cannon Fodder

We're going long this week as Troy and Joe reveal a bunch of upcoming shows and then turn their attention to a monster episode of the GCP where at least one character's life, if not more, hangs in the balance. In We Are Stupid, a major oversight on a Recovery Check, and in Listener Mail: tips for your first gaming convention!
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Cast: Troy Lavallee, Joe O'Brien
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[@nickkellas1763]

The number of hero points in the economy of Blood of the Wild means they can use them to win. The number of hero points in Gatewalkers means they can only afford to use them to survive.

[@vwkflynn]

Perpetuating Troy's issue with them!

[@luc1829]

Exactly. How many times have they said "oh I can't reroll that save or attack roll because I *need* to hold onto this to stabilize". So they never get spent on anything else

[@dinkkdinkk]

this is exactly it, Troy’s fear is a self fulfilling prophecy. I hope they take into account Joe’s experience with Blood of the Wild and try out something different!

[@CCKonnor]

It seems to me that Troy's only gripe with bottlecaps is the ability to stabilize dying characters, which robs the encounters of drama. So instead of "We are playing a grittier campaign, which is why bottlecaps will be scarce" he could say "We are playing a grittier campaign, so bottlecaps will be handed down liberally, but they may not be used to automatically stabilize while dying." I know Troy likes to stick with RAW as much as possible, but I feel like this would mollify both sides.

[@EvanSkwidLanglinais]

Hero points, ludo-narratively, function best when viewed as an economy. If there is an expectation that hero points will be available, then players will spend them on rerolls to feel like a hero, and often not have one for death saves, and they will feel satisfied with that choice. If they are scarce on the ground, then they will never spend them because they don't get a chance to be a hero if they don't feel some confidence they'll survive. The math of PF2E is balanced around the tension and drive of that desire for heroic success and confidence of survival. Players that *never* use their hero points to get a reroll and are playing PL+2 encounters are functionally on a once-per-encounter statistical deficit of making the choice to try and be a hero and maybe succeeding, or maybe still failing, which *feels better* as a player than just hanging on to a hero point and maybe not dying. That makes it a question of incentives and what a GM can do to incentivize their players to spend their hero points, and the biggest incentive is availability.

[@luc1829]

I think its just a little Ironic is all. because they kind of brought Hero Points into existence in a way *with* bottle caps lol. Campaign one introduced bottlecaps for rerolls. PF2 codifies them into rules and suddenly he hates them. And I feel that as a result, he is more stingy now than he has *ever* been in the past. There have been really great RP moments, excellent combat decisions, clever ability uses, Players have done accurate predicions and...... no caps.

[@Austinor]

​@@luc1829 This doesn't account for all of them, but I do have a similar in real life situation. I have a quote book that I use for when I have my friends just say wild and crazy stuff. If someone ever is like, "Quote book!" then I refuse to add them, it has to be something natural that I think of and can't be suggested. I think this is probably similar for Troy, anytime something cool happens and someone says, "Bottlecap!" I have to imagine he is actually LESS likely to give it to them. Also, I will say it is cool that they codified them and I don't think Troy has any issues with how they are used, it is just how often they can be used. One per episode is nuts to me too. I play in a game and we use Hero points as written, but also give out bottlecaps, and I will only ever use the bottlecaps, I refuse to use the freebie ones. Other people use them for the most random things and it just seems boring. A natural 5 should be as entertaining as a natural 17 if you know how to play things right. Death is fun. /rant

[@luc1829]

Something my table does is that you can only use a hero point if you narrate it and make it sound cool. Snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Almost succumbing to the spell before a surge of resistance shakes you out of it. That kinda thing

[@luc1829]

Like I said. I really think the players are doing things that would have earned them caps in campaign 1 that does not do it now and I can't help but feel like that is *because* they are now part of the game and Troy is salty about it

[@BCSully83]

I don't have a horse in the race re: lethality. Troy likes the lethality, Joe's arguing that maybe that's having an effect on enjoyment. I'm good wherever they land. Just chipping in that Troy's assertion that "nobody ever dies in other shows" is an indication that he doesn't watch a lot of other shows.

[@amurakay]

Completely agree with what Joe said about how these main characters' death should matter. I, personally, get attached to them. They shouldn't die in a meaningless/unimportant way. Also, I really like the idea of the fan vote for MVP of the week!

[@Olymprix]

The meaningless, brutal don't have to be insignificant though (thinking of the first character death in Campaign 1). What devalues death is when you're piling up another body every 8 weeks like Joe mentioned.

[@luc1829]

"What was it called in 1E?" It was called Bottlecaps. you came up with it lol

[@_claymore]

also: give out more bottlecaps but remove the use of "auto-stabilise" and you are fine. no more automatic saves against dying, more caps so players are happy to spend them, still the chance to use a cap to re-roll a death save and potentially survive with the possibility of still dying.

[@crushingit5128]

@1:20:00. That's the logic bomb Troy needs to accept. Do you want to keep pulling punches and making yourself miserable or just hand out a freaking bottle cap, so you can go full throttle on your players guilt free.

[@lavoiejh]

Yes, this is definitely the answer. I think this was a great discussion that really needed to happen.

[@SirMoribund]

I really appreciated your authentic discussion about bottle caps.

[@jackosbornerichardseon9095]

love the vote on the best player for a cap thats got a real glass cannon energy to it brilliant idea

[@snoophogg85]

I think Joe hit the nail on the head with the one-shotting of characters, and the difficulty for them to hit the creatures. For the last few episodes it's felt like they're under-levelled, and I think it's because they're just getting stomped, and it doesn't feel fun because they're not getting the chance to *do* anything before going down. They should have taken more care crossing the river, but at the same time it's a game being played for entertainment and they're trying to keep things moving, so maybe Troy could call for a perception check in this kind of situation? As a kind of compromise? Or even just a "are you sure you're just going to waltz across the rocks here?" you know?

[@TheLibGamer]

I think Troy's attitude about the narrative of the size and # of legs is in the way of the rules of Pf2e. They learned that the snail had a bad reflex save, so any athletics based skill that targets the reflex save or DC that also applies a status penalty to the creature is what the party should be doing. That is part of the meta of Pf2e and working as a team. Use one or two of the party actions (they have 15 actions a round) to apply a penalty to the enemy party, which usually only has 3, 6, or 9 actions (at least I can't remember an encounter that has had more than 3 enemies).

[@joecastle]

Don't ever change guys, the way you guys play can sometimes be frustrating but it's ALWAYS entertaining.

[@standingwavestudio]

Joe is right. This encounter is what it is because nobody is tactical heading into it. This party has blindly set off every trap in this adventure. And this was essentially a trap. It was just “let’s get high in this deadly environment and stumble on”. It doesn’t have to be a snore , just a little more tactical thought walking around. The getting high was funny though. The in combat stuff is fine. The ap is fine. I like the mystery. But the party needs to be a little more careful. Lucky died because she just went at a boss basically alone and put herself in a situation to be killed by a fox. Which was fine because it was kind of epic. Anyway, love the show and hope it’s not a tpk but if it is, it’s a good lesson.

[@AndrewG99]

While that is absolutely true, Joe also has another good point that constantly rolling perception or tiptoeing around every corner gets really, really stale to listen to. I would expect it if they were nearing a boss lair, but doing it all the time out and about before random encounters will seem like overkill to an audio story. It's fine for a home game, but those are bound by different interests.

[@KingFate20]

@@AndrewG99 This sounds like what exploration activities are for. If someone is "Searching" Troy should be rolling for them automatically. With a Party with an Investigator and a Cleric that should be covered easily by those 2 characters. Its more work on Troy's part, but he could also roll before the session. I've done this for the Abomination Vaults where I will roll everyone's Secret Perception checks for ALL the traps, secret doors, etc. when I am prepping the level and note down who notices and what degree of success they get. This also avoids players meta gaming that you are rolling dice without saying anything. I have really good memory so I normally take zero notes, but that is one thing I have made an exception for because its quick to do and super useful.

[@gobss1]

This is what I came here to say more or less. Troy doesn't need to roll checks ahead of time, unless he wants that much control over the campaign. In campaign one, Dolegreath and a few other characters would check for traps and it would slow the game one bit. It's a pretty simple 3 or 4 sentence interaction, that can hold its own tension. Part of playing Pathfinder is check for traps, I cant speak for anyone else but I like listening to an intelligent party. That doesn't mean they have to tip-toe around every corner either. They are experienced players who know when they're in a dangerous environment. A bigger issue is party comp and actions in combat. If you notice, several attack rolls are within a few points of hitting the creatures AC. If they had someone trying to trip, demoralize, or make the enemy off balance, more attacks would land. Same thing in the Kanepo fight, once Brother Ramius was able to lock down Kanepo's teleportation ability, instead of picking up downed teammates, the fight went much more in the parties favor.

[@AndrewG99]

Troy has said he doesn't like the Exploration activities, though. They aren't done because they 'slow the game down' and aren't interesting to listen to. Rolling them ahead of time makes sense if you know exactly where your players are going and what they're doing, but it kinda seems like a blind guess most of the time.

[@lwnasidh]

The other thing to remember is that the player has to spend ALL of their bottlecaps to stave off death, not just one... so going down multiple times in a combat, especially with the Wounded condition, still keeps the game very dangerous.

[@simmonslucas]

When comparing BOTW and GW, remember that Jared introduced the Automatic Bonus Progression rule. That could be giving the PCs an edge as well.

[@K1k1Cupcake]

Troy: I’m playing rules as written Also Troy: I’ve added an extra attack to this OP enemy even though you’re all dropping like flies

[@michaelgill6252]

For hero points, I get that Troy wants to avoid the moment of potential death being averted - it definitely undermines drama. But that can be sorted with a halfway house rule. For example, just remove the auto-stabilise aspect, and let people use them for re-rolls (including to re-roll a death save). That feels like it would take the edge off the rule, focusing on the random aspect - which Troy has said many times he values. At the same time I wonder how much of this is about: (a) narrative control (no helpful suggestions here, this is clearly a Troy thing); or (b) wanting to avoid the extra mental bandwidth of trying to assess whether any given action ‘deserves’ a cap when he’s busy running a game while also performing (Joe’s suggestion of fan caps sounds reasonable here - as would having someone like McD or Francis make the call during the episode)

[@Frozenpenguins]

I did really appreciate y’all’s authentic discussion on this! I’ve seen several people on here saying this but I’ll echo I think since Troy is so focused on bottle caps taking away a tense, dramatic moment that his bottle caps should be given the caveat that they cannot be used for death saving throws, only knowledge checks, skill checks etc. Another fun play on that rule would be to have the Fan Caps be used for the aforementioned checks and Troy’s caps be the only ones that can be used for death saving throws. That way Troy can continue to preciously give out bottle caps that DO hold weight, but the players are then able to use the caps more generously for other narrative advancing moments. Another twist on this idea could be that Troy has two types of bottle caps he gives out: Regular and Premium (or gold or whatever fancy name you want to use for them). The Premium bottle caps could be the only ones that would be able to be used for Death saving throws and could be given out basically at the rate that all bottle caps are given out now, which is to say rarely, for moments Troy deems more creative, funny, special etc. and the regular bottle caps could be given out more liberally when players do funny things, say something funny, for instance when Joe was role playing smoking flat leaf and they were passing it around. I thought that was really funny and would have given him a bottle cap for it. But this way Troy still feels like he is in control of the bottle cap economy. He would just have to be more liberal with his bottle caps :P

[@TheyDarthElmo]

I agree with what seems to be the most common answer the nash is coming up for the cap problem, more common but they can only be used for re-rolls including death saves. I understand Troys hesitation, it wasn't really until I started running Savage Worlds that i learned the more you give out "caps" the more players spend them.

[@Cerif55]

I 100% agree with Joe on the Hero Point conversation. PF2e is build on the concept of creating intereting choices and Hero Points as designed created those interesting choices by virtue of their seeming abundance in roleplay and scarcity during combat. One thing to keep in mind is that stabilizing costs ALL of that players Hero Points, while a re-roll only costs one point. Also, the game's baseline is handing one Hero Point out per hour of play. Thats not one extra for each player, its just one point for one player per hour of play. They are nowhere near as abundant as Troy seems to believe.

[@mykecallahan4141]

Hey, Glass Cannon, please NEVER stop playing like you do. The best thing about your network is that it is as close to a home game as you can get. THIS is your bread and butter. Good friends arguing over pretend. Never forget that this is the style that got you where you are, because it is the style that most of us have always wanted to see. The loudest voices in the crowd are not always the wisest. You don’t have to take their advice. Plenty of us are quietly enjoying the shit out of you. Keep it up. See you in Naishville next month.

[@matthewevelyn2157]

Appreciate the somewhat openness or realness in this conversation, GCN.

[@deathpunchdingo2981]

The whole time I'm watching these, I'm talking to you guys. Telling you what I liked, congratulating you like we're friends, reminiscing about my own perspective on what you're talking about, sharing my opinions, leveling rage-threats, etc. It really gets the dishes done.

[@mikecantwell77]

Ok, so it's clear Troy has got a disconnect/blinker on hero points/caps and how it can break verisimilitude or seem deus ex machina. I get that, to an extent but none of the same hang ups seem to be there in Time for Chaos. Caps/Hero Points are essentially luck points in Call of Cthulhu! And that's got a reputation for being a pretty brutal game. While not exactly the same, they essentially represent the same thing - the protagonists of the story have a little extra "something" that allows them to push through when anyone else would fail. Whether that's their personal steel, resolve, drive, tenacity, refusal to give in, however you want to frame it, that they just push through... they're different. Or, in a world of magic and gods may be it is a literal guardian angel lending a hand. Think Zeus picking up Perseus's statue and putting him back on his feet in the 80's Clash of the Titans. With Call of Cthulhu, Troy has no issue with characters getting luck at the start of every session "for just turning up", like you're supposed to. And there have been great story moments in Time for Chaos where a little bit of luck has saved the day. Caps are no different. I also think they'd broadly be spent in the same way. Firstly, the system encourages it. You can only have 3 points and if you've got more than 1 when you use them to stabilise, you've wasted them. Beyond that, in that episode there were plenty of points where Tallitha, in particular, would probably have cashed in "some luck points". The natural 3 on the Devise a Strategem roll, any one of the failed swim checks, etc. And you might find players cash them in on that super important knowledge roll that would reveal an important story hook when the players know finding out something about their enemy could really swing the fight. Think of how many awesome things luck has enabled, without feeling janky or "deus ex machina", and then think about how much worse the game would be if you decided "You know what? I don't like that, I'm going to rip that mechanic out." Troy, I think all it is here is that your perspective on this is off but hopefully the comparison with Call of Cthulhu, a system you clearly love, will help you realise that it's not just some sort of BS safety net for people that can't handle character death, Pathfinder is a well oiled machined and this is one of the balancing factors the design team have put in place to get the overall experience where it should be. Do the right thing and put session caps back in. Love the show, regardless. Best RPG content out there!

[@andrewpratt4247]

The group needs to take better advantage of status effects. Frightened 1 and off balance drops ac by 3 which has been an issue. I have similar group comp for my home game, Animal Barbarian, theif rogue, extremely non combat cleric, investigator and two wizards that are not damage casters. The problem i am having is tracking all the gd status effects on my bbeg as they are Frightened, dazzled, grabbed, prone and usually either stunned or slowed 1. The assisting is nice to see and is generally better than a 3rd attack, but deception or intimidate or even a step action to get out of reach, make that enemy have to use an action to get to you.

[@SSmilZZ1313]

I don't think this is an issue with the system or hero points. My group went through all of Ages of Ashes without a PC going down until book 5. I think the group could be doing better mechanically. Aid is an really good action. Intimidating creatures to give them the frightened condition can be really helpful. Getting the creature off guard is amazing. I have played PF2E since it cam out and have never had anyone use hero points to save them from dying. Most of the time I use hero points is when I critical fail a save or skill check. I have gone multiple sessions without using hero points.

[@corypaine9858]

This level of honesty is astounding. I've only been around for a few months but aren't we talking about the Flagship show? You guys are awesome. These are real problems that real games face sometimes, so like any other real game... screw it! Scrap it and lets starts something different.

[@michaeltwilling6299]

I remember one fod where they talked about the spat (I can't think of a better word but I'm not very happy with spat tbh) they had over the concealment vs attack roll order and a point was made that leaving it in was a conscious choice because that is real. It's a thing tables will inevitably run into and keeping it in the video shows that yeah it's okay to disagree and argue even if it's uncomfortable. I appreciated the honesty of the glass cannon crew then and I appreciate it now. It's validating to know that a group I consider to be an amazing group deals with the same things I deal with.

[@analog_caveman]

This encounter is known for being deadly, especially if Troy is critting on a strike that shouldnt have a crit... Its tough

[@jcbesner4340]

I was just driving home listening to the show while stuck in traffic. The first 3 letters of the license plate of the vehicle in front of me are TPK. I took a pic for proof, lol.

[@halseefeld4331]

i think Joe makes a good point about meta currency in other games. and how troy doesn't seam to have a problem with them in those games. ie luck in COC or stress in BiTD.

[@Bearwiffa228]

The thing is with Luck and stress in those games, they are double edged swords. When spending luck you become unlucky, when gaining stress you are more likely to succeed but also much more likely to catastrophically fail. Leading to more dramatic and interesting play. Inspiration in DnD/hero points in PF2e are free re-rolls. I don't hate them, but don't love them either, and generally forget or choose not to give them out. In the end it just depends on the type of PF/DND game you want to run. Disney/Dark/high/low fantasy etc.

[@AJBernard]

With the caps discussion... i see both sides. it's a lot of fun for players and audience members to see caps awarded, but "reroll" is way more powerful than 5e "advantage." And advantage is really powerful. If I had to come down on one side or the other, I'd come down on the "more caps" side. They're a kind of pressure valve to make the game easier, to let the players balance the difficulty a bit. Thanks for the Fod, guys. You're both amazing.

[@jasonkeeley7426]

One thing the group could embrace a little better is exploration activities. Having a scout grant a +1 bonus to initiative checks or being on the lookout for threats through searching could help you not get caught unawares!

[@jasonkeeley7426]

Oh, and with the remaster, the game has addressed some of the monster math at early levels. Original 2e defenses and stuff were like 1 or 2 points too high.

[@KBOBANDY]

For monastic archer stance, it seems to me like flurry of blows could be used at whatever range increment. "You can use Flurry of Blows with these bows. You can use your other monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks with these bows when attacking within half the first range increment." It seems like there's an intentional distinction between flurry of blows and "other" monk abilities, but I may be wrong.

[@davidk8699]

It was rather strange that they read out the sentence where it says Flurry can be used and then immediately interpreted it the opposite way.

[@Scales3040]

Yeah I'm 99% sure that Flurry should work at full range.

[@joshualocke2821]

So flurry is good at max range, but Ki Strike- for example- wouldn't work at that range?

[@davidk8699]

@@joshualocke2821 And you couldn't use Stunning Fist.

[@mattsteadman8085]

Is there a chance that in making the bottle caps so rare, Troy has “encouraged” their use in the way he dislikes most? Because of how infrequently they are awarded, it ends up incentivizing hoarding behaviour for death avoidance where they might be spent for other things if they were more common (and create more situations where players don’t have them to avoid death)?

[@DireWolf271]

Yes. In the games that I play where we get a lot of hero points we usually use them pretty fast, where the games where we rarely get them I tend to hold onto it in case I go down.

[@luc1829]

I honestly think Troy and them made the most fair ruling for falling unconscious on the rock

[@ExpectResistance]

Your honesty is inspiring. Love everything you do, keep doing it!

[@TheGlassCannon]

Thank you so much!

[@mykecallahan4141]

Anybody complaining about how tough this game is has never rolled up hit points for a brand new 1st level Magic User in 1st Edition D&D.

[@sagiangrey]

Ahhh, the good ol’ days. Miss that wizard.

[@Jackson79136]

Preface: I love this campaign and greatly enjoyed the most recent episode. I'm very tired of games where nobody ever dies and am happy that it is always a possibility here and not just in the big climactic boss fights. That being said: Party composition is a big problem here, in my experience you really need two solid frontliners if your team is using very basic tactics. A single tank is going to die pretty quickly in a standard Adventure Path unless the party really works to support them, and Asta isn't even meant to be a true frontliner, she should be more of a Striker. Two strong frontliners means they can simply get into flanking and swing away. Flanking is by far the most effective debuff in the game, it requires no check and applies a -2 to AC, in a system where even a 1 point debuff is significant. The Fighter class is considered one of the strongest classes in the game and that is mostly because its attack bonus is just 2 higher than any other Martial. (Sidenote: An easy way to pick a decent frontliner is to just look for any of the 10hp+ Martials that use strength as their primary stat, and then make sure you get an 18 AC at level 1) Once you gain some mastery of the system you can easily mix up the party and start doing more advanced tactics, but the GCP crew are still frequently struggling with (or are just reluctant about doing) the basics: Flank, Aid, Buff and Debuff against tough enemies, Trip against low reflex, Grapple against low Fort, Demoralize against low Will.

[@khronos3132]

I mentioned this in a comment on the last Gatewalkers episode, but expanding We Are Stupid to also have a tactics component would be really interesting and helpful (for viewers and the party). I also disagree with Joe that tactics can only be executed well after discussing them thoroughly before every turn. I think once some fundamental concepts about what every character “wants” in a combat become well known, it is easier to incorporate decisions that make those things happen without talking it out. This is what happens when any team starts to work well together. You don’t see hockey players huddling up to talk strategy before going on offense. Each player knows the general team gameplan and what their teammates are good at. They use that to come up with great plays on the fly to match whatever situation they are currently in. As a quick example, the current Gatewalkers party struggles with making enemies Off-Guard, but Sydney really wants each Spellstrike to be a big hit. Someone should be trying to get into melee with whatever enemy Sydney is going to hit for the easy Off-Guard and an effective +2 on her attack roll.

[@danielslack4078]

They are called Hero Points in first edition. Been there for most of its life cycle. Much better in 1st ed than any other edition and much better than bottle caps which is an extremely linier stepped down version.

[@zoeystarsquid]

As a GM observing another GM I'd say Troy is very fair. 2E hits hard, but that's why you have a cleric and treat wounds. Sometimes if an enemy AC is too high or they crit easily it probably means you should run and find another way around. Talking about Hero Points - In my games everyone starts a session with 1 and I hand out maybe 1-2 per session total. Even with Hero Points I've had people die. Sometimes you reroll your save fail and turn it into a crit fail and you already had 2 wounds. Even at the table without an audience it can escalate the drama which I find fun.

[@shadows96100]

I also GM and I always have the session with 1 Hero Point and I normally only award an extra Hero Point when the party finishes a really hard encounter or hit a major story beat (well also snacks but that's a given.) While I run homebrew it I still like to make difficult encounters and I found it is enough to get players out of a streak of really bad dice rolls.

[@Michael-ls9eu]

@zoeystarsquid You should let your players know that you should never reroll a failed death save with your last hero point. You're far better off trying the save and only using the hero point to stabilize when you would die. (In case you didn't know, you can use the hero points whenever your dying value would increase, you don't have to do it before the roll.)

[@zoeystarsquid]

@Michael-Is9eu Thanks! I try not to interfere with their choices. Also even though I always try to remind them that Hero Points are use them or lose them, they still hoard them until the end of the session. Would you prompt them anytime they go down if they want to use their Hero Points?

[@Michael-ls9eu]

@@zoeystarsquid No, I'd probably ask them if they were sure they wanted to use a hero point to reroll a death save though, since saving it is pretty obviously the better option if they want to keep playing that character.

[@zoeystarsquid]

@@Michael-ls9eu Thanks, hopefully it'll save them from rolling a new character

[@matthewsteinmetz729]

I was wondering how they were going to address the gauntlet "fiasco", and this is about what I expected; good work, boys! Joe and Troy you're both born salesmen, good on you guys! Hope everyone that bought a slot gets their slot when it gets added to the Con list is satisfied!

[@JulesKindredBlair]

Find the right balance between the chess match and the narrative performance. We like both sides. And for the love of log, have each player carefully review their character sheets before each recording session!

[@danhooper3723]

Going to have to agree with Joe. When caps/hero points are so rare in your game, they are almost exclusively saved to stabilize. Regardless, the system is objectively deadlier and even with caps/hero points, characters will die. As a forever GM, I have killed more in 2e that 1e, for sure. But that really should be on significant encounters, and not just on every battle.

[@edwardsanchez8853]

Thanks for the shoutout guys. I’m here for the long haul. Been listening since 2018 and I’m not going anywhere. GCN forever.

[@klasgelinder]

I like the AP, I think its great. I dont like pulling punches to "save" PC. I often feel like the monster will attack a random pet or whatever instead of finishing off a low hit point PC. I feel Skid has been to nice for a bit now in Legacy. This removes a lot of excitement and tension for me. Character deaths usually lead to some great new roleplay and new group dynamics. I liked the rotation that was in Giantslayer. I dont like if it becomes to much of a "show", the cast is great and will be entertaining anyway. I think it is counterproductive if I get the feeling the cast is trying to rush through stuff just to get a good show.

[@MrDailychance]

Hero points being optionally is also only a 1e rule, and is nowhere to be found in anything published in 2e. The only "optional" part the book suggests is when to give them out

[@dndante1738]

In my home games, I give out a lot of caps. But i agree with Troy; using caps to Deus Ex Machina a death takes a lot of the suspense out. For that reason, I removed Heroic Recovery from my table. Been fun so far.

[@calbarog]

There IS a way to amp the cleric's spell range. One of the class feats makes it one action to increase the range of any spell +30 feet. That makes touch spells have a ramge of 30 ft. Costing one action to use, it keeps you from using it with the three-action heal. But, I wonder if haste could synergize to let you use the 3-action burst at +30ft range.

[@hamsters7760]

One thing to understand is doubling down on healing can REALLY bite you in the ass, due to how often it's far less efficient than using crowd control or buffs to accelerate combat and directly or indirectly PREVENT damage. Just food for thought. Not that you have a ton of great alternatives at level 2, but definitely beware the impulse moving forward, if this hits Joe's eyes.

[@matthewschwoebel8247]

Perhaps a Bottle Cap is a +10 to one roll before the roll or a +3 after the roll? No turning all caps in to be stable.

[@Animayor]

1:05:11 I'm pretty sure Buggles can always cast ignition at 60 feet. It's under conscious mind. It says: "Your mastery of psychic magic also grants you a passive benefit that applies every time you cast these cantrips, even when you haven't amped them. These benefits apply only with cantrips you gain from your conscious mind; you would cast a cantrip you gained with your psychic spellcasting class feature, for example, as normal even if it appears in a different conscious mind." It says nothing about unleash psyche. It's also a conscious mind, not the subconscious. The subconscious mind gives you the psyche actions.

[@MindlessTurmoil]

There absolutely needs to be some kind of system to distribute caps, because this drought is honestly kind of insulting to the incredible character work that the players are putting in. You HAVE to reward the behavior you want to see in your game.

[@KingFate20]

1:05:00 What is Blud waffling about? Psi Cantrips have their inherent benefits permanently. Ignition just has a 60ft range for Oscillating Wave Psychics. They are called Psi Cantrips not because they have the "Psyche" trait (can only be used when Psyche is unleashed), but because they are different spells, just like Hex Cantrips or Composition Cantrips. TL;DR Psi Cantrips are just upgraded cantrips full stop. Their inherent improvements for being "Psi Cantrips" are not effected by if you Unleash Psyche.

[@davidk8699]

I was rally surprised about what they were talking about, i.e. range decreasing back from 60", so I went and re-read psychic. There isnt anything in there at all. I'm happy to be corrected, but with a reference to the rules if possible.

[@panelsofDOOM]

Couple extra thoughts. 1. I think the party would have less life threatening interactions if they coordinated their actions and perhaps disengaged. Like, why fight that slug thing on the rocks and not just run back to dry land and fight it there? It felt like the everyone was acting in a vacuum. 2. I think Joe and Troy are have a difference in conception. Troy wants a game that challenges the players and Joe wants something that's story first. This leads to different priorities regarding character death, combat, etc. 3. I really want Troy to try out some OSR inspired games like mothership and Old School Essentials. I think he'd dig it.

[@redfish9546]

Since the bottlecap thing is such a point of contention, which I totally understand both sides, I suggest that maybe caps are more frequent, but take a way the death defying part of them entirely. Troy gets his possibility of death without a get out of jail free card, and the players can hit more often if they're feeling rough about rolling bad for 5 consecutive sessions. I think it'd give both sides more fun and not take away any stakes at the same time

[@klasgelinder]

Good idea

[@andrewmatt7731]

I was totally agreeing with Troy here. When I first heard you could trade bottle caps in to recover from dying status.... I thought it was bogus and removes something from the game. I still feel that way about the death saves. But, Joe also flipped me to his side - that having more cap economy promotes cap velocity (spending of caps) and gives the players some control over their decisions instead of everything being completely random. Another level of strategy to consider as a player. My vote that holds no weight: more caps, but caps can't prevent death - solely to reroll a die.

[@davidk8699]

If you want to increase the range of your Cleric spells, you should take the Reach feat. It does exactly what you want.

[@dirk_gently]

If anything, this encounter seems to show that it's not that deadly of a system. Troy is rolling red hot rocks of fiery doom while the players are rolling liquid nitrogen trash. And yet..... the players are basically still up, despite that imbalance. Sounds like it's pretty hard to kill a 2e character.

[@CarlosRodriguez-dd4sb]

Some thoughts: 1) Hero points - I understand it can be a get out of jail free card - character death should be a risk, but if it is an _important_ balance item, you need to come up with an alternate to bring the game rules back closer to balance. As someone else mentioned, maybe omit it from death rolls, but allow to other rolls. 2) Joe's right - tactical errors were made. I think some players are more impetuous than others. Not having a true tank can be problematic. 3) Joe's point about the plus to hit on the opponent is worth thinking about. Maybe during prep look at how likely you get a crit if you roll 15 or 17. One shotting players seems more common in recent encounters.

[@NakedKabukiDancers]

It really takes ‘Troy-specifically’ out of it.

[@lorenzovaletti4951]

I liked the back and forth gig from studio/non studio. I dont know specifically why I loved, but I did xD

[@TheRselinger]

The fans voting for a cap seems hard to implement. I also tended to forget to hand out inspiration in other systems. What we ended up doing was have the players nominate or vote on a player to get inspiration or a bottle cap for something significant they did in the previous session. Could be roleplaying, could be tactics, could be hilarity or shenanigans. This also helped with some of the "recap" from previous sessions in a more natural way - as the players discussed things that happened and vamped off it. Another piece to remember with hero points is that they also aren't supposed to roll-over session to session. Obviously this has difficulty for a show that is episodic. Not sure if thought has been given to treating it more traditionally as a table - per each recording(?) being treated as a session? I'll admit that I am not sure how that would play with the audience and if it would be more of a distraction. .

[@snoophogg85]

I think there's definitely a middle ground with the bottle caps, and agree that them being used exclusively for death saves here is a *function* of them being rare.

[@fjvarro]

I think one of the things balancing hero points in 2e is the wounded condition. Wounded condition means that unlike 1e, when you get brought back and are at wounded 2, you are still nearly dead, even at half HP, because a critical could perma kill you. If you are going to essentially not use hero points you can, but I think adjustments need to be made, maybe it's adjusting encounters, maybe it's making sure critical effects are actually there, maybe it's getting rid of the 10+ = critical rule to reduce the amount of 2x damage, or maybe it's eliminating wounded.

[@seandirt3997]

I am running a 2e module for some friends after a lot of Pathfinder 1e exp. 2e is deadly each fight is not only a fight but a puzzle

[@underagreenstar]

Another comment because I feel like there is a tension between how Pathfinder is marketed and talked about in the community and how TTRPGS are supposed to work. Pathfinder is presented as a balanced system that produces reliable results, and that tends to attract people who like order and structure. However at it's core, a TTRPG is about chance, it's about rolling the dice and making choices and the chaos that ensues. In that regard, If things don't go quite as planned, well I think of that as a feature rather than a bug.

[@ryanreeves4712]

From my time running multiple pf2e campaigns I’ve learned that at lower levels mainly below level 4/5 throwing +2 or even sometimes +1 enemies but mainly solo enemies tend to be much harder then the combat xp allowance will imply because the tools the players have to deal with the challenge is less and they don’t have the hp pools that level scaling gives you later to take that hit or crit. Same things goes with lower level enemies but in the opposite direction with -2 enemies being a lot weaker then the xp budget would imply because they don’t have the hp to take multiple hits or a crit yet. I wish that Paizo would stop throwing these kind of encounters early because the balance doesn’t add up correctly unless your party is playing hyper efficiently and denying actions and debuffing a lot. If you don’t want to change the encounters or remake them, I would recommend not even fully applying the weak template but instead lowering the ac as if you did so they still can hit the +2 while being threatened by the damage output and needing to deny actions. Ideally though I think the combat need to be reworked to be more on level with -2 dudes or a couple on level or -1 enemies until players start getting a few levels so they have the hp pools, tools, and damage runes to deal with higher level monsters. From a players perspective the party isn’t set up to succeed in combat that well. Everyone is almost build to maximize damage potential in theory where a lot of the power of this system comes from the buffs and debuffs. Ideally we would be seeing a lot more grappling, tripping, Bon Mote, intimidating. Getting those -1 or 2 to the enemies to hit or ac is huge in this system. And with the remaster disarm is really nasty, giving a -2 to hit or eating and action to regrip the weapon and provoking a reaction. The group needs to start thinking more in the mind of how do we weaken and deny actions from the enemy, especially in a solo monster, instead of how can u do damage. Final thing, as someone who is a huge fan of Cthulhu style mystery and horror games/ campaigns and really wanted to love gate walkers as a campaign, just really couldn’t get into it or enjoy the encounter designs. It really feels like to suffers a lot more then some of the other Paizo content from having multiple disconnected authors working on different books independently. My self and a lot of my friends that love pf2e all would rate it on the lower end for Paizo campaigns. That said I’m still really enjoying Troy’s approach to it and enjoying the group play and banter but the cracks are showing and some of the growing pains or displeasure seems to be showing during session more then other things I’ve watched from the gang.

[@n0face2]

As a person who has enjoyed the story so far i do think we couldve gotten more invested in the campaign if we spent a little more time with the characters finding the doctor just a little more before being dropped into the main story.

[@tacochaos5127]

Amen to Troy's stance on how to run the game, if people dont like randomness of dice, then play your home game without them

[@benallen7403]

Yeah, as Joe brings up, whatever problems there are in Gatewalkers isn't a problem of the system. Blood of the Wild is also 2e and while there have been some really close moments in which characters could have died but the party just isn't on the ropes all the time like they are in Gatewalkers. And to be fair, the players collectively, and Kate especially, have just been on an insanely terrible string of bad dice rolls, which isn't anyone's fault. But if I'm GMing that game I'd probably take my foot off the gas just because I think that it's more fun when my players aren't frustrated. But then, I'm not running a show on a network, so my priorities are different from Troy's and I'm not inclined to come down too hard on him. They just really need to have things turn around for the party and story, hopefully soon.

[@benallen7403]

I'm confused about Troy's statement about tripping the monster. I found the stat block for the creature and it's not immune to trips, and while I don't know the player's stats it seems like a trip would be a somewhat difficult but not at all impossible roll. So it feels like Troy is deciding that they can't trip it for the verisimilitude of the world. But I have a 2e game where a monk character tries to trip everything and has succeed against extremely improbable creatures like snakes and living paintings. And while it's certainly a bit silly, if the creature isn't immune then I feel like it should be fair game. It's created tons of hilarious lasting memories around our table.

[@benallen7403]

Re: caps, one thing that I think was missing from the discussion is that you can use single caps for all kinds of things in play, but to stabilize while dying you have to use all of the caps that you currently have. So it's not like giving out more caps gives the players lots more opportunities to save themselves from death, and as Joe said, in a more free flowing cap economy players will tend to spend their caps for things other than death saving throws. And that also feeds in to the other side of the game that some people are having issues with, which is that the players seem to be struggling with every fight, even minor random encounters. If they had more caps they would be using them on rolls to hit, so they'd be doing more damage and as a result finding themselves close to death less often. One possible solution is to make the caps just a little more common but shareable. So let's say that Troy gives out one cap per session to the last session MVP or whatever. That player can use that cap for themselves like normal, but if a player goes down and doesn't have any caps of their own the other players could donate their caps to save them, but it would take all of the caps that all of the players currently possess. That both makes the decision to save someone a big deal and it also drains all of the caps out of the game, resetting things.

[@muhmonica]

Super new to PF2e but I was curious about this Strike situation and crits. Looking at the remastered "Monster Core", any monster attacks listed as "Melee" or "Ranged" are capital 'S' Strikes (page 5). Some creatures have abilities or spells listed below their Melee and Ranged attacks, and some of those will explicitly say "Strike" within their description. So I think RAW, if that Snail ability wasn't listed as Melee or Ranged and did not have Strike in the description, it should not do double damage on a crit. I could be very wrong, but this is bothering me as well because it seems to have big implications for being a "corner case".

[@gavinwest7417]

I agree with Troy that I don’t like the 2E death system and it feels anticlimactic to stabilize with a cap. However the encounters are hard enough that those same PC’s may go down again after losing their cap. We’ve seen the same issues in strange aeons. I really enjoy that characters can die in the GCP. But I agree with Joe that the book is balanced around having the caps. You’re either going to have to add the caps, soften the encounters to offset or accept that characters will die a lot.

[@mrhairypsycho3895]

I think for me is this AP. The glass cannon guys have always chose AP's that are not the highest rated, the most popular, or the best written for what I believe is them wanting to run a game show that people haven't experienced before. For people that have run Giantslayer this point is especially surface level. That ap is one of the worst written, lowest rated 1e AP's in pathfinder 1e's lifetime. The GCP MADE that campaign what it was. Gatewalkers is really poorly received by the community some even saying it is the worst AP. I just haven't felt the Troy essence and fixing Giantslayer had and its showing. Troy is a busy man now gming for multiple world class shows and I think the flagship show is suffering for it. I say these things with love as I have and will continue to love this network and this show. Thanks for your honesty, Mac

[@GooberNutt]

The difference is that Giantslayer started with a "hub" location (Trunau) with a number of NPCs for the PCs to interact with, and followed that with the river boat, with another group of NPCs for the PCs to interact with. All of that lent itself to more organic RP - between the PCs and those NPCs, and among the PCs - and some of the best RP the GCP has ever done. What made that campaign what it was, as you say. And even that couldn't help the worst parts of that AP (looking at you Book 5). In Gatewalkers, they were only briefly in Sevenarches, and there was really only one or two NPCs they talked to. Since then it feels like they've been going from location to location, from encounter to encounter, with little opportunity for social interaction in a way that connects the PCs to the story or to each other. So it's hard to feel much connection to the characters when they haven't been fleshed out much in game (except in flashbacks, which feels really forced and doesn't allow the other characters to do anything with that info) or to the story itself.

[@wadeconnolly]

The suggestion for the fanvote rewarding caps is great. Even the joke about fancap vs troycap is something similar to what I've been meaning to suggest. I feel like having a more common cap that functions like a standard Hero Point (minus the death saving effect) and then a special cap that actually works for the recovery check would be great. Keeps the hero points being spent for attacks and checks, but means the players may hold onto the special troycap for a great payoff in a haaard battle.

[@kylewest8799]

Probably my favorite Fod episode, so far. As someone who is looking to stream a Pathfinder 2e game in the future, I found Joe's thoughts on tactics vs. entertainment very insightful. My take away is that Pathfinder 2e needs extra care on the parts of the GM and the Players in order to keep tactics talk from overshadowing other aspects of the game/show, which is something I have been concerned about. It's frustrating, because all the design aspects of Pathfinder 2e that I enjoy as a player and a GM (3-action economy, the conditions, -10/+10 crits, and a tactical focus) is what makes it so difficult to produce an entertaining product (that isn't bogged down in tactical jargon). It also just might be the Adventure Path, which so far has pretty just been moving from fight to fight to fight, with little downtime in between.

[@rossmctaggart2729]

Joe rules lawyering why his rules lawyering is justified..super meta😂

[@danielslack4078]

I wish I could show you guys some of our games where we do indeed communicate tactically what we are doing during the craziness of combat while completely immersed and role playing while being tactical. Definitely agree everyone in your campaign is playing an individual character vying for the spotlight on the show instead of a cohesive group like good novels, movies, and such are told. When leveling up everything is a secret to the other players is a sign of this because 2nd ed is all about working together and not individually show boating "look what I can do all by myself! " but still entertaining as hell so keep up the good work.

[@travisty007]

I thought the thumbnail for this Fod was a bait and switch as it was a Studio Fod image, when the ep started with Troy and Joe at home, I thought wow guys, clickbait much, you know we love an in studio fod, then BAM you M Night Shamalanading Donged me. Great ep.

[@chappyhall6682]

The fan cap idea is great!

[@hereinthebox]

I'll preface this by saying I personally enjoyed the episode of Gatewalkers. On the topic of Hero Points/Bottlecaps, I've been running the 2e Crown of the Kobold King adventure with the RAW Hero Point rule - 1 Hero Point at the start of the session, and it doesn't carry over to later sessions. However, I haven't once given out a Hero Point during a session. This means that in a single 4 hour session, each player has one single chance to do one (but only one) thing with their cap. Once they've made that choice, that's it - there's no more hero points coming unless they do something out of the box to REALLY impress me. I would say a majority of these have been used for rerolling missed attacks or failed saves or checks, and there have certainly been times where the player has already used up their Hero Point and then fallen unconscious. I think the key value of the 2e hero points is not how many the players have, it's the fact that there is an assurance that there will be one at a somewhat fixed point in time. The way that GCP bottlecaps work is different - there is no assurance of when the next one will come, which means that they are more terrifying to get rid of. However, because the GCP has shorter 1-2 hour sessions, I think that giving every player a bottlecap at the start of every session would be too much. Here's a proposal that I think would be beneficial without making the game 'too easy' for the players with regards for bottlecaps - base it on a 5 episode cycle. At the start of episode, say 36, reset the bottlecap situation - everyone has exactly 1 bottlecap. Give out additional bottlecaps sparingly for great play as intended, and at the start of episode 41, do another reset. I don't think a player saving themselves from dying one time per 5 episodes at the expense of using the bottlecap (or caps) for something that actually helps the party progress (hit a creature, succeed a save, etc.) would make it so players can't die, and the use it or lose it part of the reset means that they can't just be hoarded for worst case scenarios only.

[@user-hc8en7xo4d]

Reason I switched to GCP is because they don't lie about the dice rolls. Whats the point of a dice rolling mechanic if you just ignore it and make it up. Keep up the fire work guys!!!

[@khronos3132]

I agree that using Hero Points to automatically stabilize is the least interesting aspect of them as a player and a GM. It warps how the entire Hero Point system gets used in practice and incentivizes hoarding. The Rules Lawyer put out an amazing video that breaks down the issues he has observed with RAW Hero Points and suggests a middle ground to incentivize more active Hero Point usage and removing their ability to auto-stabilize. Definitely recommended to watch if that is something that is on the table for Gatewalkers or for just getting a better understanding of the system: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b2ndfXmjgJilrsksi=kgJ2IxKIILu_okCb

[@panelsofDOOM]

I for one am loving gatewalkers. I'm kind of blindsided by the supposedly mixed audience reaction. There's a mystery, the party makes questionable choices, the players make questionable character creation options. But I love all of that. It's why I tune in every week.

[@ClancyNacht]

If you're a bit introverted and are on the fence about doing merch table, it is a good way to say hi to people and have something to talk about. As far as balance... I dunno. A couple more hero points along with a smidge more tactical meta seems like it could even things out. May not even be that big of an issue once everyone levels up.

[@dmeep]

I once ran my brother and cousin through a campaign a few sessions ahead of my table to help me plan ahead and find out issues with encounters. and while helpful the two groups had so different playing styles that in the end it wasnt as helpful as i had imagined as they found completely different ways to throw wrenches into my well oiled encounter prep

[@Darbyshire]

My suggestion would be: you've played x sessions without bottle caps given each session. Play X sessions with the free cap per session and then compare how it went and how the table feels.

[@Necrotoxin44]

I think even with hero points implemented as default, the game would still be difficult. I think a lot of it goes to the point of having a disconnect between how the system wants to be played and how it is actually being played. This is something I've been dealing with in the game I run, and no one has expressed that they don't like the system, but there has been a lot of very tough fights. I LOVE the system. But because the system is tight and (I believe) well designed in general, running an adventure path necessitates tight and well-thought out decisions from the players as well. I still don't think it's about needing a group who are all committed to highly tactical play. It's just a surprisingly different feeling than other systems, and the players end up being well immersed in the pressure of combat, because your choices really matter, AND you have a lot of them. And it might be just the nature of early level play. At higher levels the players will have more options and tools to tackle problems, and will also be more familiar with the types of problems they've encountered so far.

[@Nillockaroh]

Talitha being permanently dead from the natural 2 was something I was like wow, I can't believe they missed that but this is already super brutal so I understand. But man... crazy. Great find on the rules interpretation there.

[@mrhairypsycho3895]

Another things to point out is that hero points are not new. They were an optional rule in 1e as they are in 2e. They had the same property to bring you back from the dead through the way of raise dead or resurrection. The difference is that dying was much more difficult without hero points in 1e whereas in 2e its a 2-3 round jawn and you are toast. Pathfinder 1e hero points frequency was once a level besides one you start with. The thing I took away from reading about 1e hero points is they were there to help beginners learn and not be punished harshly for figuring out how the game works. You all are still 2e newbies especially with the remaster and you need to allow learning without curbstomping a character every 3 sessions. Expecting 2e to play like 1e with half the system experience is an unwise thought. Allow for some growth and settling of roots in this uncertain campaign and when 2e becomes second nature you can start messing with the fundamentals smartly.

[@Daerric]

Love the transparency as always, another great fod. yall are doing great

[@alltradesjack502]

#Thumbnailgate 🤬 You know how much we love an in studio Fod jawn.... Not cool guys.

[@tgnome57]

I think the real issue is having characters taken out of the fight before they even get to do anything. Why should a bog standard random encounter mob be able to take out a character in one hit, even if it is a critical? Maybe if you crit and roll max damage, but seems like every fight someone is down before they even get to act. That's not fun for anyone! It would better serve the game to just cut the mobs' damage, or at least their crit damage, by about 30%. You wouldn't need to save Caps to survive if half the characters weren't lying on the ground dying every, single, fight.... Keep up the great work guys, you're entertaining as always, even when dying! :D

[@TheriusT]

My group uses a variant that some creators use, the add a benefit you can use your "hero point/bottle cap" to re-roll an enemy attack. This one adresses the imbalance that spell saves can be rerolled but attacks don't and both are things that enemies do to you. But removes auto success in death rolls. In this way, the flow of caps is faster but death is death. And as some people have pointed out a higher flow of caps gives players incentives to use caps offensively, so everything flows faster.

[@MrDailychance]

My counter point to troy is he is creating the deus ex machina by not using hero points. Because plays have so few they hold onto them only for saving throws. Heroes points are there to counter what Kate has been going through where the player is having absolutely no fun Because all of their dice rolls are terrible. They key point is having "fun" this is a game that you are supposed to enjoy, and if your players aren't having fun you aren't doing your job as a GM. Your plays should still be enjoying the game, even during their fails. That gets lost when you take the high and mighty " this is a performance, I want it to be gritty, etc" well great, but now the game isn't fun to watch and your players aren't enjoying yourself. Like joe said, if players have acess to hero points they spend them more frequently and guess what? They might not have them when those death saves come around and the tension is organically built vs forcing down the throat. I'd also argue luck in call of cthulu is literally the same as hero points, if not a bigger deus ex, and he has no problem with them.

[@ramzcoldlampin5460]

Fantastic Fodjawn!

[@junkbucket50]

Very good Fod. Looking forward to the next episode

[@az_junior]

I met the show via Time for chaos, then campaign 2 and now I subscribed and am listening to campaign 1 and Troy gives plenty of bottlecaps there and the players use them to help during battles, not only for death rolls, I don't understand the difference from the bottlecaps in c1 and in c2 that makes him hate it so much. Love the network and you guys, if I ever visit the US I hope to catch one of the live shows.

[@brianfroeschner6644]

1. The deaths are so memorable. 2. I feel the game death average is low. 3. Heroes feel more heroic when so stressed with tough, deadly encounters. I should admit I love deadly OSRs like DCC and Mork Borg. When a party is depleted of resources, they should run and allowed to run. It's new school to believe you should be able to fight every encounter.

[@Penguken]

I think it’s worth confronting this notion of “using a hero point to stabilize is boring” I don’t think it should be. It’s a perfect moment for RP! What is the character seeing in their unconscious that is compelling them to stabilize? What are they working towards that makes death NOT an option?! IMO, hero points to stabilize, while in the meta of the game do provide an alternate route to narrowly avoid death, only temporarily stave off the potential for death and can be an awesome moment to let the player share something deep from their past.