The Last Jedi... 5 Years Later

[@nicobones9608]

To expand on your (really awesome) fix of Finn's character arc in this movie, they also should have left in the deleted scene where Finn calls out Phasma in front of the storm troopers and the storm troopers turn on her upon learning that she betrayed the First Order when her life was under threat. That was such a powerful scene, and shows how the Resistance has the moral high ground over the First Order.

[@B31NG]

It’s over, First Order! We have the moral high ground!

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

@@B31NG you understimate our 97399479394899th planet killer!

[@IGotThisGeorgeLopez1]

Luke got more screen time than Finn in The Last Jedi

[@gradyrothweiler1165]

My biggest problem I have with the sequel trilogy is how each film feels disjointed compared to the next. There isn't a cohesive underlined plot. At the end of FA for instance, snoke wants to resume kylo's training and Rey is going to luke to train. We don't really get any of that in TLJ. Then in ROS it just feels like everything in TLJ is just retconed and made even worse. There is just no unified story told throughout all three, and that to me is the biggest problem of the sequel trilogy.

[@oliverford5367]

I don't mind what the author of this is saying about Rian being a unique filmmaker - that's fine for his own stuff like Knives Out. But he's clearly not a team player. To me it's wrong to try and have it both ways - to get people to watch your movie because it's "Episode 8" and because there's characters like Luke which they love - and then to turn them into totally opposite people to who they were. Or to do random things like weaponizing hyperspace out of nowhere which breaks all existing lore, even the beginning of your own movie is broken!

[@cally77777]

There's some deep thinking going on in this video, which I approve of. NevertheIess I don't entirely buy the vid's suggestion that in TLJ Luke behaves like a dick to Rey, or your own implication that Kylo's relationship to Snoke is irrelevant because he dies. Luke is disillusioned, but his behaviour to Rey isn't wholly negative. Because he believes he's failed as a Jedi, and failed Kylo in particular, he doesn't want to do the same to Rey. In some ways he's doing the guru thing of teaching by not teaching, which Yoda did to him. You think I'm going to initiate you into all the wonders of Jedi powers... well I'm not. Instead I want you to learn to control yourself first. As far as Luke's concerned, Rey fails that test when she tries to communicate with Kylo. Nonetheless I like the video's analysis of Luke's later character development. Similarly for Kylo's arc to continue, Snoke has to die. Kylo doesn't want to be Snoke's pawn anymore, so getting any further training from him isn't going to happen. I think the video is right to point out his challenge to Rey is, we can do things on our own, and it doesn't matter who our parents were. So there are connections with the first movie at least. The fact that these arcs screw up in the third movie, and a lot of stuff is retconned, is not directly Rian Johnson's fault. Except that he proved to be a director that divided the fans, which indirectly led to the backtracking by Disney.

[@ryangunwitch-black]

That’s because RJ ignored the logical next steps of TFA in favor of his big subversions. And it didn’t work.

[@thehylian6984]

Rey and Luke did train though, that was the point of Luke’s arc???

[@Saborabi]

Well, This movie made me drop out completely from Star Wars Franchise. I never watched episode 9 and any of the series or movies that came after. The film was disrespectfull with episode 7 by ignoring all elements layed down by J.J. Abrams. I felt J.J was very distinct. He puts the plot revolving around misteries and questions. I felt I was similar to the narrative he build with Lost when episode 7 came out. Disney make a big mistake by allowing rian johnson to destroy the franchise. And they were very arrogant when fans were dissapointed claiming anyone who disliked the movie was a racist biggot female hater. And a lot of characters behave in unthinkable ways (such as yoda saying they should burn all books. He would NEVER SAY SOMETHING LIKE THAT).

[@thinkinaboutpolitics]

How to fix the sequels: let Rey fall to the dark side, let Finn and reformed stormtroopers save her, no Palpatine. The story would still have holes, but you'd subvert expectations in an interesting way.

[@rangers94ism]

@@bkbeatty6087 But then he would overshadow Rey. So that's why his character had to be destroyed. Sequel Trilogy sucks doesn't it

[@alfredosauce1]

Only fix, dissavow all these films as canon, scrap the sequels, start afresh taking inspiration from some of the older novels

[@DJDustKut]

@BK Beatty let Luke not be an asshole! 😂

[@donovancrommedy4580]

Ooo a little bit of kotor action

[@dustydd]

It was so easy. The writing was literally on the wall and they failed.

[@Drave_Jr.]

Adam Driver making it impossible for you to tell if he's being genuine or gaslighting is an amazing compliment on his acting abilites.

[@geoschilling]

This movie is amazing and I appreciate your honest criticism of the film. It is refreshing to see someone appreciate the cool parts of the trilogy I grew up with and love.

[@motherplayer]

What really gets me in retrospect, is that this film had such a good moment after killing Snoke and the guards and having Kylo suggest Rey come along and they find something different. That would have made all this "subversiveness" worth it if they decided to use it to explore beyond the binary. But no, we have go back to light being good and dark being bad, and the film was only made worse for it from then on by not committing since now they might as well have left Snoke live if we were going back to normal.

[@thegoldman25]

i like the decision, star wars is about light vs dark. save the complex stuff for the shows

[@DamnFineCupOfCoffee]

I think you got it backwards. Kylo coming back to the light after killing Snoke would have like Vader’s redemption, and the end of the story. Kylo moving going even further down the dark path, becoming the new big bad is the new territory Johnson laid out.

[@youtubeviolatedme7123]

The way I've come to terms with it is by assuming Kylo Ren has been trying to deceive Rey (and simultaneously the audience) throughout the entire movie. Since it is demonstrated that he is an unreliable narrator when he gives a false narrative to Rey (and the audience) about Luke trying to kill him, it's not unreasonable to conclude that he is misleading the audience into believing that he offers Rey a different path, when in reality, he has been trying to convert her to the dark side all along. Do I think Rian Johnson intended all of that? No. It's just my head canon that Kylo's monologue is sinister deceit, and not just poor wording. I think Johnson kind of writes based off of his intuition, but he ain't no Tarantino, so his success rate isn't perfect.

[@LinkMarioSamus]

Kylo was suggesting they burn everything and start afresh, and Rey thought that was too extreme so she told him to get stuffed. I feel like people overthink this movie to a frankly ridiculous degree and I don’t even like it.

[@xxblueboodxx6828]

If Rey had gone with Kylo it would’ve contradicted her character arc. Her story is about discovering who she is rather that relying on others to tell her what her place is. She sacrifices that need for validation to do what she thought was the right, saving her friends and the resistance. Also the subversion isn’t the killing Snoke, it’s Kylo still choosing the side of evil despite killing the very man that set him down this path.

[@swolecapybara]

While you made some decent points, this movie aged like milk for me.

[@DylanJones75]

I like to think of Snoke not as a character but Kylo’s obstacle of grief and regret. He always comes back to Snoke, but he finally destroys him, thus freeing himself.

[@geezz99]

they can always clone another snoke , call return of snoke .. and jar jar .. just for fun ..

[@yusufraage8554]

@@geezz99 I though clones could have force connections and Snoke was all the force so was Palpatine.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

So... a plot device? To relegate what is set up to be a main antagonist in the first movie of a planned trilogy to a plot device in the second movie of said trilogy is absurdly ridiculous, and one of the reasons this trilogy is as badly received as it is.

[@geezz99]

@@lVideoWatcherl it;s not watchable ..at least i can't

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@@geezz99 I agree, it's pretty bad and definitely the worst SW has to offer.

[@iliasfilip2110]

Sean Bean's character dying can't really be called "subverting expectations"...

[@80sOGRE]

Andor is like pouring a whole bag of salt in the wound of the sequels...whispering in it's ear as it squeals " If only ...if only " Imagine a world in which they had chosen the right writers for the sequels...shame we'll never see what those films would have been like. It's great we have more choice of different SW now for different fans.

[@mreszotnik]

Comments like that make me think some fans want imagery of Star Wars and characters of Star Wars... but not really written like mainline movies. All mainline movies may have been fairy tales in something that resembled space. But in the EU there were also plenty of books and video games that shifted genres. And by the end people expected from the sequels to follow all those rules even though they might have been set up in pure sci-fi novel or a political drama. Needless to say, TLJ being a more robust, but still a fairy story, could not meet that expectation - because having exposition of a SCI-FI in a Space Opera would have destroyed in a moment. That is why some people enjoy Andor and Rogue One more - which is fair - but saying ALL mainline movies should be like that when NONE of the old mailnline movies was made like that is an excercise in impossibility. And so people mock Leia Poppins - which is a magical moment in a fairy tale - or obsess over some problem with choreography (Attack of the Clones says hello), not realising moments like this are far-fetched by design, this is not an error, it is a feature. It is a feature, as much as hiding Luke but retaining his family name (duh!), Teddy Bears defeateing the greatest legion of Stormtroopers or Rebels defeating expensive mechanical monstrosities with TOWING CABLES, or space worms living in asteroids.

[@asaknight321]

Andor does a little trolling

[@tronam]

The fanbase was primed for division after the prequels, which broke a lot of us. Some went along for the ride with Lucas while others felt like their inner child just got stabbed.

[@bobbybaklava9605]

@@tronam what a bad take

[@tronam]

@@bobbybaklava9605 It was a weird time for old school Star Wars fans. It actually started even earlier when Lucas began tweaking the original trilogy and making controversial changes like Greedo shooting first.

[@BrentButler]

Regarding Luke: I think I speak for more than myself when I say seeing Luke Skywalker in action again was the primary reason we were wildly hyped for this movie. I’ll admit that a failed/jaded Luke is an interesting concept and a semi-serviceable explanation for his self-exile. But it’s hard to swallow that he has been up to nothing for like 10 years, then dies doing one final heroic thing. If he survived the ending of TLJ and gave us peak Luke satisfaction in Episode 9, I think people would be okay with him considering killing Ben, blahblahblah. But you gave us loser-Luke, told us he’s basically been this way from shortly after we last saw him save the galaxy, and then he dies the moment he redeems himself. Rian Johnson clearly felt that this was the best story option regardless what fans wanted, but there EASILY could have been some middle ground.

[@mreszotnik]

I feel your pain, man. Personally I was hoping for Ghost Luke to mentor Ray in episode IX... and we almost got that. But then they scrapped original plans for Duels of the Fates script and we got TROS instead. Like, I would have exchanged all scenes with Palpatine with more action with Ghost Luke in a heartbeat. Still, I liked TLJ. It was very thoughtful.

[@lordgrim355]

Facts. What bugs me is that he pretty much didn’t even try either. He just gives up immediately and jets into exile. He knows evil is there and smoke took his nephew. But instead of trying to stop it or get his nephew back he just gives up. The same Luke who put his life on the line trying to get his father back, doesn’t even try save his nephew. It’s pathetic and ruins his character. Why ppl don’t understand or see that aspect is puzzling to me. Now if he tried and tried but kept failing then that’s understandable and makes it easier to get behind. But him just giving up for 10 years and just eating to die? Like wtf

[@treyjohnson7235]

Agreed, it wasn't that I hated what they did with Luke, it could be an interesting direction(although I think it wasn't done all that well). I really wanted to see the Luke we all remembered. It reminds me of Jamie's line in GoT "I never really cared for the civilians anyway." Maybe you could turn the character in that direction with enough justification, but should you? It's just upsetting

[@barkley8285]

"seeing Luke Skywalker in action again was the primary reason we were wildly hyped for this movie" and thats exactly what you got in the end. Luke had no purpose in EP9. He would ragdoll zombie sidious and kylo ren.

[@semtexpancakes]

The time between TFA and TLJ was like counting down the days until the end of your deployment because you can't wait to see your wife. Seeing TLJ was like finding out she's eight months pregnant an hour after she didn't show up when you finally got back. You still love her, you really want to find a way to deal with shit but after a couple days of quiet reflection and heavy drinking you realise it just isn't fucking happening.

[@kennel878Xx]

This analogy was absolutely beautiful because it hits every nail on the head, checks off all marks too. Well said daviefingpancakes well said

[@jaysway9251]

Lmao

[@austinreed7343]

TROS is…

[@jensenstene]

you good man?

[@tatters6623]

This is solid fcking gold hahaha.

[@EntrEsprit]

Prequels aged well cause despite all of its sloppy acting, and controversial things it has had, there was a premise and a cohesive story that adds some layers to the original trilogy, it's also full of quotes and action, as well as it's expansion on the universe is immaculate. Sequel Trilogy will not meet the same fate, when even directors didn't come to a consensus on what this story is about, then why would viewers return to it, there's nothing to come to appreciate with time...

[@Millenium2927]

Couldn’t agree more. Making a “5 years later” video and being overly positive about nearly the entire thing, suggesting we just needed time to reflect and rewatch TLJ, and it’s actually a good movie is crazy to me! If anything I think TLJ has gotten WORSE with age. 5 years later we now know, as fact, that: 1. There was no plan for the trilogy & Rian Johnson got free reign to make whatever movie he wanted with other peoples characters 2. Rian has admitted he’s not a Star Wars fan 3. JJ didn’t help Rian at all with the script, and his ideas/plans/plot lines were ignored 4. A handful of actors including Daisy, Mark and John disagreed with their characters choices and the overall direction of the movie during and post production 5. ROS suffers horrifically BECAUSE this movie splits the fandom and disrespects 40 years of source material. It was not a successful middle part of a trilogy. It sort of ends wrapped up you could argue we don’t even need ROS 6. Toy and book sales drop dramatically showing that no only did hardcore fans start losing interest but it also didn’t generate this new wave of young fans Disney was trying to inspire The sequels aren’t great, they had no business continuing the skywalker saga to begin with but it becomes even more frustrating with every passing movie. TLJ is the catalyst however and I think the dust has settled now 5 years later that this movie is where it all went horribly wrong. Maybe you like it and that’s fine, I like PIECES of it. But this is mostly a clickbait video where he’s just finding creative ways to play devils advocate and discredit 5 years of complaints from the majority of the viewers that don’t like this movie.

[@Millenium2927]

He also says during the Finn segment, “Characters need time to undergo change, if a character has one belief and then instantly changes his or her belief, that is not a character arc, that is a character jump.” He THEN goes on to say how Luke’s actions are completely plausible, his arc makes sense yadda yadda but that is wildly hypocritical. Literally the last time we see Luke was ROTJ where he redeems his father refusing to turn to the dark side, refusing to give up on him, willing to sacrifice his life. The very NEXT scene in film we see him as this old grump who’s given up on his family and on the universe. Wouldn’t you say that’s a character JUMP not an arc?? You’re asking the viewers to fill in the gaps ourselves instead of showing us an arc. Just claiming it happened during the 30 years he was offscreen isn’t satisfying, isn’t good writing, isn’t good film, isn’t good character progression etc etc It’s pretty obvious golman just throwing shit at the wall & trying to come up with clever rationales for every poor choice in the movie, even if his rationales literally contradict eachother. But hey, he may have persuaded some of the weak minded judging by the comments

[@gobogoo2329]

the prequels aged horrendously the only reason theres a huge uptick in prequel fans is because the people that grew up with them are nostalgic now

[@gkoymnbxykfb]

@@Millenium2927 I think you're 100% correct that Luke has a character jump that is never shown. But I also think Goldman expresses his honest thoughts.

[@cally77777]

@@Millenium2927 He talks about it being bad that Finn has a sudden character jump in one scene within the movie. The change in Luke takes place over 30 years like you just admitted. There is nothing stupid or surprising about it, particularly taking into account what happened with Kylo. As a matter of fact, I like his grumpy old man persona. Whatever reservations Mark Hamill might have had, he still acted it out convincingly enough. As for calling people who happen to disagree with you 'the weak-minded', well, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[@wetterschneider]

Precognition is like time travel. Luke saw Han's murder AND the burning of his academy causing him to momentarily threaten Ben which caused Ben to murder Han and burn down the academy. It's a causal loop. Or maybe to say, the singular cause was Luke's sense of protection regarding those around him, a trait he has always had which led to his greatest failing.

[@charlesburgess4511]

Damn, and that would lead back to how Anakin's desire to protect his own loved ones lead to disaster enacted by his own hands. Like father, like son indeed.

[@explicitw8657]

“and the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose master had failed him.”

[@SamuelSouza-di6nq]

This is stupid, Luke would never try to kill his nephew while he was sleeping like a coward, this is totally out of character. "Ohh I saw a vision, so im gonna totally kill the son of my sister while he is sleeping by his back lol"

[@wetterschneider]

@@SamuelSouza-di6nq Here's the thing. In the movie, the one we ALL watched, Luke did NOT try to kill his nephew. You are sort of correct. It would have been stupid if he tried. But he didn't try. Luke did not try to kill Ben. He momentarily considered it. And that consideration, that threat, that bare minimum was enough to set Ben on that path of fulfilling the vision. The vision was true. What Luke saw in the vision is a true thing that really happened and Luke did not stop it. "It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence."

[@knightmare5097]

@@wetterschneider Even still, the fact that Luke’s instinct was to kill his own nephew makes Luke look like a psychopath. If that’s how he reacts to a vision, I’d hate to see what happens to his students when they had a dark side moment

[@indranidasgupta8982]

I still feel that Rian Johnson missed an opportunity to really use Finn's character to hit home a message about the nature vs. nurture debate. Finn was nurtured since he was a little kid (they even showed his face when he was kidnapped into trooper service and indoctrination), but what was his true nature? In the end, the biggest missed opportunity was how Finn could have led a stormtrooper revolt in TROS (every opportunity was in that movie too for it) and the seeds could have well been sown during the Canto Bight sequence. If that happened, Finn's true purpose as a Protagonist and Hero would have been realized in the Sequel Trilogy. I feel really sad about this... even my dad (an Indian-American man who immigrated here) asked me about Finn in TLJ when we watched it together -- "what happened to the black kid?" he asked me... it's like his character held a specific promise in TFA that went nowhere. I suppose this is what happens when you have no overarching vision when you make a trilogy. Even if the products are okay to great, it all falls apart under deeper scrutiny and the threads don't come together... this is the difference between a trilogy or a saga that bears endless rewatches and one that you're happy to see the end of.

[@MizanQistina]

It is not possible to put it all in 3 hour movie, that's the problem, TFA leave so many mystery boxes to handle. TFA introduce 3 main characters, all the problems in TLJ coming from TFA. Rian Johnson have two choices, either brush away two characters only focus on Rey or try to fit in those characters to please the fans. Even so, he did great in trying to expand the characters and that's why it is a 3 hour movie.

[@indranidasgupta8982]

@@MizanQistina Rian did a great job and I am not a TLJ-hater. This is my ONLY criticism of TLJ. I was a film student and a script-writer. It's not hard, believe me. Where there is a will, there is a way. It wouldn't have been hard for Finn to say something like "come with me.. JOIN me, Phasma" before she rejected his offer (during the post-canto bight sequence). The seeds of that were ALL there. It would have also accomplished something that Rian Johnson LOVES to do... provide a poetic juxtaposition with Kylo Ren's "join me" (and ultimate rejection from her) to Rey. They could've just left it there... nothing else need to have been done or shown. Sometimes, less is more, and Rian knows that.

[@jeffreyroedel9804]

Johnson turned Finn into a joke and completely dropped so much potential that was planted for his character in TFA.

[@MizanQistina]

@@jeffreyroedel9804 JJ Abram who make Finn as a joker in TFA, Finn have more serious role in TLJ

[@MizanQistina]

@@indranidasgupta8982 JJ Abram only make Finn a stereotypical black comedy relief @ goofy black companion. Rian Johnson who give Finn more serious role in TLJ where he really get his character. Look on how ridiculous Phasma and Finn end up in TFA, Finn throw Phasma in garbage bin off screen, is that a good writing for Finn and Phasma? TLJ give a more satisfying scene to watch and it give some context too.

[@QuickPoker]

You can't talk about TLJ without mentioning how polarizing it is, of course. Do I personally love or hate it? For me it can't ever be a simple yes or no answer with this film. It has amazing scenes and ridiculous scenes. If someone hooked me up to a lie detector test and asked me if I like it, I would fail the test if I said no. And if someone hooked me up to the same lie detector test and asked me if I hate it, I would fail if I said no. My theater experience was at least positive because I actually hated TFA and was glad I saw anything that didn't end with starkiller base. Go figure.

[@thegoldman25]

good points!

[@bentowle3478]

Which are the amazing scenes in tlj?

[@macree01]

You bring up a great point that I wish was mentioned more often. Love OR hate the Last Jedi, it WAS a divisive film. I think so many of the arguments I had about this film, especially early on; came from obstinate fans who were eager to say that this film was universally praised and that the people who hated it were either trolls, a small minority, racists , alt righters etc. Here’s the thing. Art is subjective, so at the end of the day who am I to say if it’s a great or bad piece of art? That I can admit. But you also have to be honest about the overall reaction a piece of art is getting from the public at large. Diehard fans being borderline delusional with their insistence that this was the most well received film of all time was just endlessly aggravating at the time. And that’s totally ignoring my own thoughts on the film itself.

[@RaikenXion]

​@@bentowle3478 LOL Great question. I'll vote for the - "I'm Leia Poppins Y'all!!" scene.

[@CodyMapping]

@@bentowle3478 Yoda

[@leshiy_nd]

I think Lucas gave us an interesting media strategy: if people fell in love with your passionate creation, try something new; if people are angry about your passionate creation, give them more. That's even a bit funny how he sold the rights when people just started to appreciate The Clone Wars and good parts of the Prequels.

[@thegoldman25]

Agreed

[@cem575]

Lucas didn't wrote or direct any clon wars episode but he served as an executive producer and had creative input throughout the show's first six seasons

[@leshiy_nd]

@@cem575 I know

[@Sines314]

"Star Wars fans have been trained to believe you must be someones son or daughter to be strong in the Force." I hate this claim. What blood line did Yoda come from? Palpatine? Obi-Wan? Windu? Ahsoka? Reven? Malak? The Exile? Kreia? Kyle Katarn? Mara Jade? Force Sensitivity is heritable, yes. But the only reason Star Wars seems to care about this is because it is the focal point for the original and prequel trilogy. Because Anakin and Luke are the focal point for them. The reason people thought Rey had a special lineage is because the film made a big deal about her parents, and never showed us their faces. Then she was shown to be such a natural talent that she could perform a mind trick without anyone even telling her that was a thing she could do. Five minutes after her first experience with the Force at all. And then she went on to defeat someone who had been training in the Force since a very young age. Yes, he had an injury, but he didn't move like it hurt him too bad, and he was dealing with someone whose only ever fought random thugs before. The Force Awakens is what set up the expectation that Rey had important parents. Not Star Wars in general.

[@izzyj.1079]

This, 1000 times this. I don't know where TLJs defenders got this idea that other Star Wars fans are obsessed with bloodlines or whatever. What's worse is Disney genuinely seems to be, what with how they described the sage as "this grand battle between Skywalkers and Palpatines"

[@Klerik131]

In the guard fight, having the force help is one thing, having the force disappear one of the guards weapons as it is about to kill her and having the force make the guards wait until she is in a position to defend herself is another.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

@BK Beatty If you look at any of the prequel duels, it shows that they put a lot more work into keeping the choreography seamless. The fight in TLJ isn't necessarily bad, it's just embarrassing when you compare it to the golden age of lightsaber combat.

[@provokedfob]

@@bkbeatty6087 well, thats litterally a bad fight scene then?

[@bubblesofthecoast6393]

Let’s not forget about Kylo being a secret masochist when dealing with one of his guys

[@CoreIreland]

This is NOT a lightsaber duel, it's just "subverting expectations" and it is NOT a good fight.

[@zachanikwano]

Also having the force is one thing, if you’re trained in it. Luke had training hitting small targets, the force helped amplify his natural talent. Anakin blowing up the federation ship I can’t excuse, that was bad nonsense. But Rey’s only combat experience, to the audience’s knowledge, is staff-fighting thieves or something… *without the force. She has never, ever used a sword, let alone a lightsaber in a multi-enemy encounter. Even with the force I’d have a hard time believing she could take on a trained combatant, let alone several (who were the *personal bodyguards* to the Supreme Leader!!). Kylo? Sure, he’s probably trained against them and knows a bit of something (being the Supreme Leader’s force-trained apprentice who was previously trained by Luke Skywalker). I would never expect Empire Strikes Back Luke Skywalker to be able to take on Palpatine’s guards.

[@charizard7666]

Its actually comical that at 45:04 you are making a speech about characters facing the consequences of their actions in TLJ, only to directly show finn and rose out in the middle of the battlefield with no way back to the base, sitting unarmed right next to a dozen first order walkers, and yet they manage to teleport back to safety in the next scene. Literally the opposite of characters facing the consequences of their actions.

[@I-like-tinde-ki-sabzi]

This guy ripped apart the phantom menace but defends the sequels

[@joshdk97]

@@I-like-tinde-ki-sabzihow did he rip it apart

[@thedapperdolphin1590]

As in, a follow through in the narrative for their actions. Not nit picking how characters move from scene to scene.

[@charizard7666]

@@thedapperdolphin1590 It seems like a pretty critical decision they both made, and completely removing the consequences to said decision is absolutely a massive flaw in the story. Its no different to if rey were to teleport out of snokes throne room.

[@johnthemachine]

@@joshdk97 he actually wanted less palpatine and that was when i realized he's special

[@invidatauro8922]

Okay, the reason the parent thing bugged people (especially more hardcore fans) is twofold 1. We wanted a reason for why she was so powerful. She was doing shit Anakin had trouble with early on in his career. And the movies Force Abilities and powers were always more tame compared to video games. 2. It's because in the movie her parents shouldn't matter. We kinda already addressed this issue in the last movie briefly with Maz. But the way it was presented in the movie all but shouts in our faces it was due to the meta-contextual reason surrounding it. Basically Rian didn't reveal her parents were "nobody" because that's what made the most sense for the story/character, it was because Fans were theorycrafting (an annoying habit I personally hate) and because Rian enjoys being a troll, he deliberately picked the option he knew would generate controversy. Now I blame JJ for all of this because of his stupid fucking mystery boxes, but he did leave at least a plot outline of where he wanted everything to go, which Rian through out. But the BIGGEST issue I have with this movie is that it's clear Rian wanted to have an ending. He wanted this movie to be like an ending to the trilogy. Seriously, it has almost all the beats of a final film or third act. The problem with that is that this was second movie in a trilogy and the way he made this was that there wasn't anywhere that interesting to go that woulldn't essentially be a retread of Jedi with a much less interesting villain. Also I saw someone else point this out, but Rey knows who her parents are. Who they were was never teh question, not to her. That was a mystery for US the viewer. Her question was why did they leave and would they be back.

[@BeyondAnimation]

All she did was do a force mind trick and lift some rocks. That was the extent of Rey's force abilities in the first two films. She got lucky against Kylo Ren in the first film, and he was already wounded, fought finn, mind torne between light and dark and ontop of that, he didn't want to kill Rey. She wasn't powerful, she jobbed in most of her fights besides one.

[@Tink2k]

I never saw the clip of Rian about not going the way people think it will. But I did come across a facebook post asking what everyone's theories were before TLJ came out. And.. my first thought was that all of their theories would be wrong! (I didn't comment on the post) You might be right about Rey knowing who her parents were but only as much as a young child would. To her they were who they chose to appear to be. But yes, her concern was why they left her and when were they coming back for her. As for wanting an ending... I think he wanted for Luke to have his moment and have his ending. I understood the plan was to focus on each of the original trio in one movie. Han had his moments in TFA - and had the death Harrison Ford wanted. Luke was highlighted in TLJ. And Leia would have been a big part of the final movie - maybe training Rey? Personally this is not just my favorite sequel movie, but my favorite Star Wars movie - and one of my favorite movies in general.

[@invidatauro8922]

@@Tink2k Good for you. I fucking hate it and the fact that literally half the fanbase wants to forget about it at best should tell everyone that even if you LOVE it, there must be something about it that legitimately rubs people the wrong way, and is not just a matter of opinion.

[@yusufraage8554]

@@BeyondAnimation Have you ever seen a jedi mind tricking somebody tied up, I always seen the jedi waving their hands while mind tricking but Rey does it restraint on the torture bench.

[@Tink2k]

@@invidatauro8922 and you hating it is your opinion. Because it didn’t go the way YOU thought it would.

[@jonasodhner6507]

Wow, actually fresh and interesting takes on The Last Jedi, especially on Luke! That's really impressive, thank you.

[@thegoldman25]

Hey, thanks!

[@tiktak3559]

@@thegoldman25 Exactly you nailed it. I felt it the same way before I even heard your explanation and always was moved with Luke's storyarch in Last Jedi. It holds very strong message seeing Luke overcome his struggles and in the end as powerful Master Luke sitting on that stone watching sunset. I get shivers everytime I remember it it was so emotional. I don't get why Mark Hamill was so pissed :/ .

[@ManiacMayhem7256]

​@@tiktak3559 I do

[@xxraptorxx8180]

@@tiktak3559I think it’s great as well he is a combination of obi wan, yoda and of course himself for this story. He isn’t luke skywalker of the story here to save the day but he does at the end after getting own final lesson from his master

[@viggokozak6468]

@@tiktak3559 May be because they ruined his whole character?

[@knightmare5097]

I’m sorry, but I’ve gotta disagree with you about Luke on this one. One thing that I like about Luke is that he learns from his mistakes. His brashness in going off to Bespin after sensing the vision is what led him to lose his hand. So in ROTJ, he’s far more tempered and less instinctual. When Vader taunts him about Leia, Luke snaps, slicing off Vader’s hand. But he stops before he can kill him, because he realizes his mistake, and stops his rage from taking over. I also considered that a learning point. So when Luke gets a vision about Ben being evil, despite the fact that he’s done nothing to make Luke get fearful of them (I always thought they had a close relationship until the vision), he gets the thought of killing Ben. And that’s my issue. Why would Luke think that was a good idea at the time? When being brazen and instinctual has only brought pain? It feels like we’re going backwards on his character growth

[@vickyemmans2083]

If I may , first Luke like all force users even though he is powerfull is still made of flesh and blood and not some sort of a flawless god . That being said , no matter how wise he got over the years he still carries with him character traits which are not easy to shed one of those is being implulsive . But before we get to that people fail to consider the simple facts that a) His family in the past was responsible of wrecking the galaxy . b) His failure felt personal this time not a collective thing . He was loosing his nephew to the darkside as a teacher thus failing his sister as well along the way . So again , the last time one of his family members went dark the galaxy ended up pretty much in ruins . So the thought of that scenario playing out again for a split second gave him that instict reaction . Why people make such a fuss about it is beyond me...

[@knightmare5097]

@@vickyemmans2083 I do not want him to be flawless, I just believe that for him to never learn from his previous mistakes is stupid. He learned in ROTJ that his impulsiveness not only led to the loss of his hand, but also almost to him killing his own father. If he believed that losing his nephew to the dark side meant failing his sister, why would he consider killing him? I can understand Luke having PTSD about his father, but that consideration of killing his nephew, no matter how short of a decision it was, makes Luke out to be a psychopath. It makes me wonder how horrible his time as Grandmaster was if THAT was his reaction to someone having a dark thought

[@vickyemmans2083]

@@knightmare5097 You are still missing the fact that Ben wasn't just a random promising force user . That huge potential and raw power that he had , if gone to the dark side could literally create a second round of mayhem and destruction across the galaxy . THAT scared Luke . It happened before by his family and now it could happen again . His split second reaction was just a jerk-knee kind of thing but the years of him growing as a Jedi prevented that from manifesting into something worse (actually attacking him) . There were too much at stake there . All that makes Luke a flawed yet grounded BELIEVABLE hero .And all that chain of events also COMPLETELY JUSTIFIES why he secluded himself on that island . And the lesson Yoda gave him and the UBELIEVABLE lesson Luke taught his nephew at the end through his vast Force powers is what makes The Last Jedi a true standout among star wars movies .

[@knightmare5097]

@@vickyemmans2083 I get that it scared Luke, but this time, he was the master. He could’ve fixed things. He wasn’t the person meant to rectify someone else’s mistakes. His split-second reaction, no matter how small, blew up all he learned about his impulsiveness. Now, he was back to square one. And no it doesn’t justify his seclusion. What, so he’s just willing to abandon his friends and family because of his shame? He’s willing to let the galaxy burn just so he can stay on his little vacation home to wallow in his own misery? That doesn’t sound like Luke. The Luke we saw by ROTJ was a man of hope. A man willing to look at his father, a genocidal psychopath, someone even his own master gave up on, and say “There’s good in him”. And I disagree on that last part but you go off I guess.

[@knightmare5097]

@@vickyemmans2083 I won’t deny that Luke’s fight with Kylo Ren and his talk with Yoda we’re cool scenes, but I still believe that Luke’s character was ultimately hurt by this film

[@thatjoshwright5577]

I fall in the middle of both sides. I feel like there is potential for Rey’s character to work, especially with the points you presented, but as the movie presents Rey, she was especially lacking. There is some serious depth that could be explored under the surface, but she is written as a very neutral character. She doesn’t have a moment where she is overwhelmed with pain or emotions, she just tries things and does them with little to no consequences. I think every decision a character makes should come with a cost.

[@ZatoichiBattousai]

A lot of Amazing Acting and good scenes, surround by puke and dog shit. Like you say, no hero journey and yet she has all the ability, unearned.

[@TheBronf]

@@ZatoichiBattousai even the chosen one had to train and earn his power. even luke had to train and when he stopped training to go and save his friends what happened? he lost a hand and had a humiliating loss accomplishing nothing at all.

[@juststatedtheobvious9633]

Rey is never overwhelmed with emotions? Did you edit all her fight or flight overreactions out of your head canon?

[@mikeblom8897]

Finn’s arc goes from fear with him trying to bail at the beginning, to anger at phasma and then hate when he’s about to sacrifice himself. It’s great... on paper. In practice it looked like rose dooming the rebels because she has a crush. Keep in mind they had no idea Luke was about to show up and I have no idea how they got away

[@ZeroFilmClips]

One of the main issues, certainly as far as Luke goes, is that there are two different ways that fans see him. One section sees Luke as heroic yet flawed, as in the original trilogy. He's often overwhelmed by events, prone to disillusionment and despondency, and under-trained as a Jedi. He's a classic "flawed hero" and it's that aspect of the character they find interesting and human. The other section of fans see him much more simplistic terms, as a powerful Jedi Master, defined by his use of a lightsaber, who has learnt all his lessons, and is now all wise, all knowing, and all good, and all powerful. He's viewed as some Jedi super-hero. Much of this stems from the EU portrayal of the character. I personally find the first version much more compelling, and realistic in human terms. I love The Last Jedi, and I am glad that we got the more complex and human version of Luke, where light and dark battle within him.

[@sebces2576]

People wanted the whole movie to be like the cameo in the Mandalorian, which simply wouldn't have been interesting to watch. It would be like if the Avengers had Captain Marvel in every movie. It also wouldn't have made sense, Luke was obviously on the island for a reason and wasn't just doing it for fun.

[@ZeroFilmClips]

@@sebces2576 Agreed. I think that cameo was the worst kind of fan appeasement, for fans who only want to see Luke run around with a lightsaber, and utter some "wise" words occasionally - The male-power fantasy-superhero that Luke never was, and these same fans can't see the irony in angrily declaring that The Last Jedi "ruined Luke!".

[@madmonkeys88]

@@ZeroFilmClips agreed that it was fan bait in Mando. The problem I have is how do you justify luke running away from his responsibilities, how do you justify him seriously considering killing his nephew in his sleep. That wasn't the character we had ending in ROTJ, and tbh I don't give a fick about extended universe books or anything that might flesh out what transpired. If they came out cool for them, but in this story. Which is a sequel, they do not give a good reason as to why he behaves the way be does. Unless you have a good reason I guess.

[@madmonkeys88]

@@sebces2576 why was he on that island? Because he was a failure in everything? He failed his new Jedi order, he failed killing his nephew in his sleep, he failed by almost actually killing his nephew in his sleep,He failed to uphold any of his responsibilities. The writing for why he was there was shit. You would probably need at least a whole movie, if not most of one, to justify changing the Luke Skywalker from ROTJ to what we saw in TLJ. We didn't get that, or anything close to it.

[@ZeroFilmClips]

@@madmonkeys88 I think Luke's actions tie in very closely with the established themes of Star Wars, and are consistent with his previous actions. Luke momentarily being tempted into killing his own nephew shouldn't be surprising. Wasn't he urged, by his own teachers, to kill his own father for the sake of the galaxy? Even in the process of "saving" him, Luke violently attacked his father in a murderous rage when he threatened Luke's sister. It is precisely because Kylo is his nephew that causes Luke to panic. Vader's blood runs through both Luke and Kylo, so I don't find it surprising that they are both vulnerable to the temptations of the dark side, "the quick and easy path". I think this is an astonishingly smart move by Johnson, to remember what's really at stake. It is Shakespearian in its execution. As for Luke's "responsibilities"... Should we really expect this barely-trained "Jedi" to be responsible for peace in the galaxy? Even the Jedi in their prime couldn't manage this. Luke has been overwhelmed since the beginning. Even when Luke was young and full of hope, he also exhibited character traits of depression and pessimism. Now, in old age, it is entirely natural that cynicism has replaced hope. Luke is entirely justified in taking himself out of the equation when he feels it will ultimately be for the best. Both Yoda and Obi Wan chose self-exile in the face of defeat, so Luke is also following his master's example. Also, the aged warrior, turning his back on the cause, has been portrayed many times in the mythological tails on which Star Wars was based. Many claim it is the logical last step on the "Hero's Journey".

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

I would have loved to see the "Finn keeping the little-tracking-thing". It would not only give more tension to his arc, but it could give us two cool scenarios: When the first order captures him and Rose, Phasma or Hux could take the tracker from him and break it (meaning that as long as the first order exists, he can't keep the ones he cares about safe) Or, at the end of the movie, when they are going to fight agaisnt the walkers, he could give it back to Leia (meaning that he learnt the lesson and he now will fight for a bigher cause and not run away) Both would be far better than "ok Poe, I changed in the last few minutes, you can keep this"

[@dazey8706]

omg the idea of it getting destroyed could be used to introduce his connection to the force as rey realizes the beacon is broken and shes basically stranded. and once in is safe and free from the FO he could almost desperately attempt to reach out to and feel rey idk. it would be interesting to see fin and rey try to navigate to one another. as well as add more weight to when she just randomly shows up just in time to save them from tie fighters.

[@obi-twokenobi4861]

@@dazey8706 kind of sad that they missed an opportunity like this, since it barely has any effect in the movie's pacing but enhances Fin's character so much more. This is my head canon from now on!

[@dazey8706]

@@obi-twokenobi4861 very sad! as much as i appreciate rose's character, i wish that time was used to explore fin more deeply. actually tragic how easy little fixes (like him keeping the beacon) would improve his character arc so drastically. i mourn the death of these characters at the end of TLJ because their storylines are almost abandoned and replaced with completely new ones in tros

[@channelbuckybronson1993]

Congratulations, you literally put more thought into Rey than the entire writing staff over the course of 3 films. I assure you that they didn’t give a shit about these scripts nearly as much as your breakdown of them

[@SocialDuck101]

The Gold Man is literally just bringing to the surface exactly what the writers wrote though. Like this is her arc in this movie, you can listen to Rian Johnson’s commentary track for it and he says something very similar. They did put thought into it.

[@knowledgeanddefense1054]

You and 12 other people are too stupid to realize that the director of the all time best TV episode actually does care about the art he makes, even if it doesn't conform to your horrible taste.

[@channelbuckybronson1993]

@@knowledgeanddefense1054 ROFL, how embarrassing. You’re defending a writer/director that hates your guts based off his experiences in high school. Then again, you probably shared similar torment, much deserved no doubt.

[@knowledgeanddefense1054]

@@channelbuckybronson1993 "Rian Johnson hates you because something something highschool" source: dude trust me (and my incredibly vague claims that go figure the relevance of) How embarrassing indeed, just... not in the way you think - if you can even count that thing you do as thinking. "Then again, you probably shared similar torment, much deserved no doubt."-I don't even know what you, huh... for now let's just call it 'think', that I went through, but thank you for outing yourself as a sociopathic sadist you psycho! I can tell I struck a nerve, especially after I probably made you realize you're baselessly and mindlessly hating on the director of the best Breaking Bad episode which is also the only one on all of IMDB to get a score of 10/10, and your butt being set ablaze from that is probably what made you resort to pitifully make up that nonsense about me and him. Stay mad, sweetheart :)

[@SocialDuck101]

@@knowledgeanddefense1054 GET THEM

[@vsf_dave811]

I don’t think Rian Johnson is a bad director. He’s made some great movies like Knives Out and Looper and directed some of the very best episodes of Breaking Bad. He’s capable of telling good stories and his movies are very interesting visually. He never should have been given a mainline Star Wars film. It’s clear that he had some drastic ideas for the franchise that honestly may have even panned out, but I have a suspicion Disney forced him to reign it in. Things like Rey flirting with the dark side, Luke’s (valid) criticism of the Jedi Order’s failings, Rey and Kylo creating a new Jedi/Sith philosophy, the movie’s anti war profiteering message… all these things could be components of a great Star Wars film, but they all end up feeling half assed and not fully recognized. TLJ is almost great in so many places but ultimately falls flat in almost every aspect. Final hot take… I think Rian Johnson’s Star Wars trilogy could actually be good, especially if he’s working with original characters.

[@dawsynasay4841]

I think the biggest issue was having Rian credited as the only writer for the film. George Lucas was the main creative force during the creation of the OT, but he still had other writers to help make sense of his ideas and properly flesh them out. Star Wars needs more then one writer because it’s a massive project with many turning gears, and having Rian be responsible for writing a story by himself was a red flag because he didn’t have another writer to help flesh his ideas out and tell him no. This happened during the PT when Lucas was the sole writer.

[@thomasduncan4074]

I loved the analysis. You definitely changed my mind on some aspects. However, I think it’s a weak argument to suggest that Rey won a fight against four guards simply because “she has the Force.” I can certainly believe that as a reason behind her initial defeat of Kylo Ren in TFA, but without any formal training, it’s hard for me to believe that she became a masterful fighter in just a few weeks. I mean, look at Luke. He failed miserably during his first real encounter with Vader, and yet Rey is lifting giant boulders after a few measly instructional sessions with Luke. I don’t buy it. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@thegoldman25]

i respect your take, thank you for watching!

[@johanneskaiser8188]

Agreed. If the force was just something that needed no training, there would be no Jedi or Sith. Though watching this guy's vidoes had me realize that while I still do not like the sequels, they are not quite as dumb or bad as my kneejerk reaction made them out to be. So much stuff falls apart when you think about it for a minute, but when you think about it some more, at least some of them get glued together again.

[@SB992REBORN]

​@@thegoldman25 Here's a hot take for you though... what if Luke wasn't necessarily wrong but he was overthinking everything!

[@viktorceder4985]

“Size matters not” - Yoda I beg you to rewatch empire if you want a reminder as to how “training” with the force works. It’s not about 20 years of being a padawan.

[@TheHipClip]

I wouldn't say it's a bad movie but it's definitely not a good Star Wars movie. And it just ruined the Sequel trilogy but that is on Disney for not planning ahead or choosing one director.

[@thegoldman25]

i see where you're coming from but I disagree

[@TheKrieg45]

Very true, and they've lost a lot of goodwill as a result.

[@proapocalypse1448]

It's a bad movie.

[@machiavellifire4006]

Hell no man the last Jedi was a horrible Star Wars movie all the way through

[@freman007]

It was not a bad movie. Rise of Skywalker was a bad movie. The Last Jedi was an evil movie. Made by people who hate Star Wars for people who hate Star Wars. Every line, every scene, was an expression of the director's contempt for his audience. That people still try to defend it... Well. What can you say, really?

[@michaelkaduck1915]

Y'know, I have always gone back and forth on this movie. I still end up feeling conflicted when I watch it, because there is a lot that I still do really like, especially all the stuff on the island. Rey and Kylo Ren's connection is at the heart of this movie, with the way they form a connection through their shared sense of abandonment, and that stuff I think is great. With Luke, I like that he is portrayed as a failed master, and that his journey is about facing his failures. I have gone back and forth on the flashback of him nearly killing Ben, but I don't believe one choice destroys a character. And Yoda's words to Luke...that makes me cry each time I watch it. As for Finn's story...I don't know, man. I wish it had been longer and gave Finn more time to establish him hoping to leave the resistance before Canto Bight. Same with Poe's story...I do like him needing to learn to not be so hot-headed, especially in the battle of D'quar...but they really made the way this lesson was conveyed confusing. And the final act of the film I think is great! The fight with Snoke's guards, Holdo destroying the Super Star Destroyer, Finn fighting Phasma was awesome, the battle of Crait, and Luke's sacrifice was all great. So I am still conflicted on this film. I don't really love it, but I also don't hate it.

[@bhanuwongnachiangmai4412]

I do enjoy some as you said also.

[@Emanon...]

Subverting expectations is easy. Surpassing expectations should be your goal.

[@oliverford5367]

That's what I think too. A subversion is like a modern art where it's just a blank canvas and you call it a masterpiece. Painting the Mona Lisa is what you should be aiming at! "Luke just gave up and couldn't be bothered anymore" isn't clever. A really good reason for him to be on the island would be much better.

[@ontos8914]

You’re missing the entire point of art my guy

[@oliverford5367]

@@ontos8914 Maybe modern art like unmade beds and empty canvases. But not real art like what Leonardo and Michelangelo produced

[@ontos8914]

@@oliverford5367 you’re still missing the point of art

[@joshuaholke]

15:35 Thank you SO MUCH for addressing that Luke does not actually lose in combat against Rey, it boggles my mind that so many people think she won that fight, I genuinely don't understand it

[@thegoldman25]

some people really baffle me

[@edwardiii8409]

We see what we want

[@jasonfischer8946]

It's a good point, but the rest of the glazing over about Rey being a Mary Sue is head scratching. For instance, it's not a complaint amongst people that she used the Force at all. The complaint is how ludicrous it is that she did it without learning anything. She suddenly knows how to do the Jedi mind trick before she even knows it exists, she suddenly uses telekinesis to get her lightsaber and then later that day suddenly lifts a huge pile of rocks. The reason that Luke's use of the Force to destroy the Death Star was notable was because it was his first use of the Force in that way. For one moment, one measley moment, he "stretched out with his feelings" and did one thing beyond what he otherwise would have done. Then, he was humbled in the next movie, starting off with barely able to summon the lightsaber to escape from the cave. Later, even with the help of a master, could barely move one rock at a time and most certainly couldn't move an entire massive ship. Yoda even had to greatly concentrate to do it. In the Force Awakens, I saw it a stretch that she knew how to fly the Millennium Falcon so we'll, but I gave it a pass because the Force has been shown to help wielders in certain subtle ways, but the rest of it was ridiculous. That's the problem with Rey. She just figures out stuff and does it better than everyone else.

[@rangers94ism]

Really? You can't understand why people like me who saw Luke on his back conceding to Rey as being the loser in the fight? Is this supposed to be a joke? I heard his reasoning and it's flawed. Why didn't Luke just take out his green lightsaber to counter her? Oh, I know why it's because of that weak story of how Luke for no reason decided to try and kill his nephew. This guy said that, "it's because he was going to kill Han!" BS! First off Luke acted like Han's death was new information. Actually, what am I talking about? Luke had no reaction to Han's death other than, "where's Han?" I guess after that he sort of walked away and drank more sea cow milk. This movie is total trash. What a waste of time. Fin was put on a side quest that went nowhere even though he was supposed to be the star because look at his skin color. Try and defend it. Go ahead. I dare you.

[@draketafoya3343]

@@rangers94ism 🤝 AGREED!!!!!!

[@barneystinson6638]

I actually disagree with your opinion on Luke and Rey. For first, according to you, Luke gave in to his instinct/potentially killing Kylo because he saw how he kills one of his closest and most beloved friends. Well, no offense here, but I think you clearly missed the point of Luke Skywalker. Faith plays a huge role in Lukes personality. To make a quick comparison here: Luke didn‘t even lose faith in Vader at the end of episode 6, a figure which at this point claimed hundreds of innocent lives, a few of em being close friends of luke (obi wan for example). Still tho, Luke did not lose his faith in Vader and ultimately managed it to turn him over to the light again. In The Last Jedi, luke thinks about killing ben because of one single vision (which yes, might become true, still, nothing happened up to that point), and that doesn‘t make any sense out of my perspective, especially when you consider lukes persona which is clearly built upon faith and believing in the good in someone. Secondly you claim that it totally makes sense that Luke left his fellow friends and loved ones because he failed kylo and thus losing faith in the jedi. My first problem with this whole plot structure is that it simply comes out of nowhere. At the end of the original trilogy, it is implied that evil is now defeated and there might be a way to actually rebuild the jedi order under lukes supervision - once more Luke Skywalker is said to be a positive Character whose mind is clearly defined by faith. Then, after learning that his nephew turned to the dark side, he decides that, obviously, the jedi must be the problem. Instead of rather trying to lead kylo back to the light, Luke - from one day to the next - simply decides to quit, to give up (almost everything he ever believed in!). When was the last time Luke Skywalker gave up? Right, there wasn‘t one time before this movie filled with plotholes, because Luke Skywalker isn‘t someone who just gives up. He is someone who would rather surrender to the emperor than giving in to the dark side. Now you are implying that this totally makes sense - Luke abandoning everything he loved, being ready to die on this island without saying goodbye to any of his most beloved friends and family and losing all faith in the jedi and everything else, simply because he failed his nephew. Sorry, but that sounds like nothing else but a poorly made-up excuse to me, created by ryan johnson who also might be a great director, but obviously has no clue of star wars and how its character arcs work. I know this comment is already long enough, still I want to quickly tell you what bothers me with your explanation of reys actions. I actually agree with what you say, still, Rey is a bad character for me. Why? Because - and it seems to me that you simply ignored this - her arc also leaves a huge plothole. The main question I have: Where does rey have her powers from? Luke, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, basically every Jedi received training for more than a decade (except Luke, still he had to work his way up over some years) to eventually become a powerful Jedi Master one day. Rey doesn‘t seem to have had any training at all, still she is able to use the force like she did it her whole life. She is a proper lightsaber fighter since episode 7, but never received any lightsaber training. In episode 9 we learn that she is the granddaughter of palpatine, but that doesn’t explain anything. Force sensitive beings always had to first be sensitized for the ways of the force and properly using it, same with acrobatic skills and the various lightsaber combat forms. Rey never endured such a process, which is why she still is kind of a mary sue in my opinion. It just doesn‘t make sense and I will never go with it. She simply comes out of nowhere and is able to do things that Luke and even Anakin struggled with. So, that is my whole criticism. Maybe you‘ll be able to read it, sorry that it got so long, but these were simply my thoughts about it and when I once come up with something like this, I‘m eager to write it down. Still a great video which views your persperctive well, yet I largely disagree.

[@thegoldman25]

I appreciate you thoughtfully sharing your disagreement while clearly being respectful. Thank you for the comment!

[@lVideoWatcherl]

This, absolutely this. I have not yet found anybody who could argue any of these points without evoking outside sources or simply making empty arguments. I could personally even believe Luke to fall, and it _could_ have been interesting, just because we never saw it before. But that would require at least comparative care and attention to his _rise._ He did not become a fully-fledged Jedi master from one moment to the next, he had had to endure terrible losses and failures to endure in the past, and he _did not_ give up. Now we get a five minute sequence (if that) showing him getting utterly defeated? No, that is not how you make good movies. You _show,_ but what you show must also have care, time and consistency put into it. Just claiming "this is now like this because I want it to be" as a director _does not suffice._ You actually need to act in the confines of the established world, with the established personalities of the characters. I could actually imagine it being very interesting to see Luke being torn down, even though many people might not have liked that also. But at least put in some _effort_ if you want to transform a character into a mess; otherwise all you are doing is ruining said character, and that is exactly what we got.

[@barneystinson6638]

@@lVideoWatcherl totally agree, thanks for sharing your opinion 🤝🏻

[@stephaniegerard3319]

I think at the core of the love and hate for this film lies a philosophical difference. The original trilogy is a story about a young man who becomes caught up in a galactic conflict through which he grows to become a better person through effort and self sacrifice. The idea of the Force is not about rugged individualism, but learning to connect with something higher than yourself. The Han Solo character arc perfectly aligns with this theme as he gives up his selfish goals to come back and assist Luke, enabling Luke to make the final shot that wins the battle. The characters consistently work together throughout the film to either get out of life-threatening situations or defeat the empire- none of them (Vader excepted) are ultimately in it by themselves or for themselves. At the heart of the original trilogy is a childlike hope, which is partly why it's sometimes referred to as a fairytale rather than a traditional sci-fi story. This hope and focus on something bigger than oneself seems embarrassingly unsophisticated to a modern culture that embraces rugged individualism and a cynical but more "realistic" view of life. The scene of Luke throwing away the light saber and the fact that he has gone off to be a hermit is the exact opposite of the hopeful Luke that would do anything for his friends, and it is subverting to the exact thing that made Star Wars great. But it perfectly exemplifies the "realism" and rugged individualism embraced by modern culture. It's satisfying to see portrayed on film the world as we think it really is, which is why I think some people like TLJ. But for people who want to see hope, friendship, self sacrifice and teamwork, or who see that as part of a deeper reality, the story of TLJ is emotionally unsatisfying, never mind all the other problems it has.

[@thegoldman25]

You make fantastic points, but doesn’t Luke at the end of the story represent everything you spoke about? So many people obsess where he began the story, but ignore he ended the story as a beacon of hope

[@mreszotnik]

A very thoughtful observation. I think RJ does deconstruct Star Wars in TLJ by confronting it with the "rugged individualism embraced by the modern culture". However, in the end the point of the story is to reassert that there are values greater than that "individualism", such as hope, friendship and teamwork. The myth is restored, because the myth is not about individual but about the community - which is echoed by Luke's final sacrifice. And the message is clear: in order to forge new path into the future you must uphold those values above all lest you become paralyzed with indecision (like hermit Luke) or condemned to repeat the errors of the past (like Kylo).

[@mreszotnik]

Upon further reflection, I have one more thing to add... you write of "childlike hope". Indeed, I agree that Luke's character in this movie exemplifies departure from his "childlike hopeful" character. But this stems from the natural stages in hero's journey. This is explained by Joseph Cambell (who inspired Lucas to create SW) as follows.: "Freud stresses in his writings the passages and difficulties of the first half of the human cycle of life - those of our infancy and adolescence, when our sun is mounting towards its zenith..." - This is Luke in the OT, and Ray in the sequels This is Luke in TLJ: "...C.G. Jung, on the other hand, has emphasized the crises of the second portion - when in order to advance the shining sphere must submit to descend and disappear, at last into the night-womb of the grave". - "The hero with a thousand faces", p. 8. I think part of the controversy around Luke's portrayal stems from not understanding the difference between challenges in the latter part of life. When you have no parents and seniors to rely on since all of them are gone, when people count on you, and even start to see you as a legend that cannot go wrong - the pressure is immense, and the impostor syndrome kicks in. People WANT you to be hopeful, they WANT you to be that solid foundation for the others... and yet you cannot always be like that. This is more common then people think, and there are multiple examples of individuals perceived to be hopeful who ended their lives in a tragic way - Robin Williams, and more recently Jason David Frank (the Green Ranger from Power Rangers) come to mind.

[@peacemaster8117]

I think the hate for the film is mostly grounded in it being very poorly made, just an embarrassing noisy slog of a film with no interesting ideas and lots of stupid plot contrivances. I'm sure there's also philosophical reasons to hate it, but when you listen to the critics they're not talking about individualism, they're talking about how the moment-to-moment story makes no sense.

[@mreszotnik]

@@peacemaster8117 it makes as much sense as any other mainline installment of this Space Opera series. Anyone can play nitpicking game with any of the mainline movies. In fact people who do not like Star Wars do it exactly for the reasons you mention.

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

49:59 The fact that the quote "at the end of everything I love" is vague, I think is beneficial. It's up for the audience to interpret what he saw and come up with an explanation that makes sense to them. Personally I'd like to think he saw more than 'only' Han's death. Anyway, *My interpretation is in Luke's favor* I know that the things he saw must've been so terrifying that it made him react this way. If someone want to interpret the visions only as something Luke could simply brush off and not care about, then their interpretation is not in Luke's favor. Then they are intentionally trying to make Luke not make sense in the sequels only for themselves.

[@davidbeer5015]

I've always interpreted it being at least Han and Hosnian Prime, if not more. Mark Hamill's facial reaction communicates a lot, to me. This is the character that could stand composed in the face of the Emperor, who was the darkest guy around and incredibly feared...and this vision is shown to horrify him. That's saying something, imo. How you interpret what Luke suggests he saw would definitely have an impact in reception.

[@phantomface9211]

I think that the reason that Luke's downfall was so poorly received is because of the golden rule of movies not being implemented well in this movie. That rule being show don't tell. It's a movie. We want to see in more detail what lead luke to the thought process to exile him self and to consider murdering his nephew. No we don't need everything spelled out for us but we barely got anything. When we last saw Luke Skywalker he was this hopeful bright eyed optimistic and caring jedi knight who basically risked the lives of his friends and freedom of most of the galaxy to save his father who had done way more terrible things than kylo. With luke we went from A to Z with a little piece of g shown and P, Q, and R was talked about a little bit but that's all we got pretty much. And now we are at Z with exiled and depressed luke Skywalker who seems to think that letting smoke, kylo and the 1st order run amuck is a much better alternative than a jedi getting involved which eventually is what lead to Han getting killed. We get 1 flash back on repeat and the rest is kinda explained. I think the better alternative would have been to have a more fleshed out flash back of luked and Kylo's journey as master and padawan at the beginning of the movie so we could see both of their internal struggles fester and make Luke's downfall seem a bit more believable.

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

@@phantomface9211 well yeah showing instead of telling can definitely help with the execution. At the same time, one can't really expect them to show bout' 30 years of flashbacks to explain everything that happened with Luke and Ben. That's an incredible difficult task, especially when one realizes it's not even Luke's story anymore. It's about the younger generations meeting the older generation. Spending too much time on flashbacks can def hurt the overall story. Also in the case with Luke's visions, I think it's way better of telling, instead of showing. TLJ *shows* and *tells* the most important points for his transition into a hermit and it works perfectly for me in its execution. I also think Luke's whole philosophy doesn't need more explanation than it got, since that's what the prequels really taught us. That the jedi were very flawed. I like that TLJ actually responds to the prequels in this regard.

[@phantomface9211]

@@Yoda-wf6bu lol I'm not looking for 30 years of flash backs. Maybe one 15 to 20 minute journey that can replace the screen time of fin and rose pointless side quest. Also I disagree that for luke to just let the galaxy fall into despair and chaos from the 1st order that what we got was enough of an explanation. Like yeah luke we get it. You fucked up. And now your fuck up is getting multiple planets wiped out innocent pple killed including Han because you won't get off your ass and fix your fuck up. Lol agree to disagree I guess but I respect your certain point of view.

[@freman007]

@@Yoda-wf6bu Then they should have made the first movie a story that shows us the relationship between Luke and Kylo and Kylo's fall to the dark side. Then make 8 and 9 about the redemption of Kylo. Remember all the stories we saw in the Prequels? Luke didn't. Pretty much every Jedi knight and master was slain under Order 66, with Obi Wan and Yoda dying before they could fill in all those details either. So Luke should not even be in a position to make judgment on the choices and actions of the Jedi Order. That was all metacommentary from the talentless hacks who wrote the movie.

[@guybrushthreepwood9071]

"Star Wars fans have been trained to believe that you must be someone's son or daughter to be strong in the force." Yoda, Obi-Wan, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, Qui-Gon...

[@steveinvictus]

Not a single one of those characters was a main protagonist in any of the films.

[@dw1419]

@@steveinvictus being a main protagonist =/= being strong in the force

[@oliverford5367]

It's not that the ancestry explanation needs to be the explanation, it's just you need an explanation, whatever it is.

[@arnauddika]

The way you analyzed Luke's story arc hits hard. I've hurt people I cared about a few years ago and even now, I can't trust myself. I related to his despair when he spoke of the Force to Rey and in fact I was afraid of watching the movie again because of it. But I feel like...maybe I could look at his story and feel uplifted

[@yusufraage8554]

Luke was always optimistic even when all the jedi were saying kill Vader, 40 years later and he is the opposite off what I and everybody that I know remembered him.

[@arnauddika]

@@yusufraage8554 People change. They get hurt, traumatized or depressed. People can make mistakes. Even in Legends, Luke's character wasn't wholly good. The dude beheaded Lumiya and wanted to kill Caedus during their fight. I understand why people feel betrayed by the movie's portrayal of Luke but to single-handedly declare him incapable of ever feeling down or making mistakes is akin to character assassination. In fact it is... very similar to how the old Jedi dealt with emotions

[@domispablo7992]

@@yusufraage8554 if luke stayed the same then whats the point of him being there.theres no charachter development itsjust the same luke. which might be pleasing to you but doesnt help that much with a story. hed seem very 2 dimensional otherwise

[@Svanberg123]

@@domispablo7992 You're right. The sequals shouldn't been made. Lucas was right.

[@officialtbhoops]

@@yusufraage8554 “40 years later” a lot can happen in 40 years that inevitably affect a person, such as all of your padawan students being killed by your nephew who you failed to train properly.

[@caioferreira117]

I always intepreted Rose saving Finn as a way of stopping him to sacrifice himself pointlessly, because the whole scene makes a point that he wouldn't reach the cannon in time. At that moment he really was more motivated by his hate towards the First Order. It also serves as a direct parallel to the beginning of the movie, which started with a reckless rush towards the enemy and a self-sacrifice worthy of a movie climax, but ultimately lead to just a delaying of the First Order attack. It not only didn't solve the problem but also cost greatly to the resistance (that was even the reason of Poe's demotion), so both Poe's and Rose's decisions at the end echoes that. Just like Lucas said, "it's like poetry, it rhymes".

[@viggokozak6468]

That scene IS NOT poetry by any means and they really didn't make it seem as Finn wasn't going to reach the cannon, in fact, it seemed the contrary. His whole sacrifice was out of love for his friends, plus the whole sequence just doesn't make sense at all, like, Rose crashing at high speed to "save" him, really? And that kiss at the end was horrible and forced. Overall, if they were aiming for what you just said, then they utterly failed at the execution.

[@phantomface9211]

I think that the reason that Luke's downfall was so poorly received is because of the golden rule of movies not being implemented well in this movie. That rule being show don't tell. It's a movie. We want to see in more detail what lead luke to the thought process to exile him self and to consider murdering his nephew. No we don't need everything spelled out for us but we barely got anything. When we last saw Luke Skywalker he was this hopeful bright eyed optimistic and caring jedi knight who basically risked the lives of his friends and freedom of most of the galaxy to save his father who had done way more terrible things than kylo. With luke we went from A to Z with a little piece of g shown and P, Q, and R was talked about a little bit but that's all we got pretty much. And now we are at Z with exiled and depressed luke Skywalker who seems to think that letting smoke, kylo and the 1st order run amuck is a much better alternative than a jedi getting involved which eventually is what lead to Han getting killed. We get 1 flash back on repeat and the rest is kinda explained. I think the better alternative would have been to have a more fleshed out flash back of luked and Kylo's journey as master and padawan at the beginning of the movie so we could see both of their internal struggles fester and make Luke's downfall seem a bit more believable.

[@MizanQistina]

The problem is TFA didn't show anything at all about Luke other than a cliffhanger. You see, the difference between Ep5 and Ep8 is Yoda didn't show up in Ep4, and people don't know who Yoda is before the prequels. Yoda show up in the middle of Ep5 and die in Ep6. Everything else about Yoda shown in the prequels. The question on why Yoda live in isolation answered in the prequels. Now, why Luke live in isolation? We don't have any movies explaining why and we already know Luke. That's the problem of TFA that TLJ have to fix, Rian Johnson MUST explain why because viewers already know the character and want answer. If there are movies showing why Luke live in isolation before TFA coming out, there is no issue.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@Mizan Qistina Yeah... so? Rian had to explain Luke's absence, and he chose quite possibly _the_ worst explanation. Instead of going like "I went here to try to find the source of what has corrupted my nephew" or "I had to hide and protect my other students from Kylo's wrath while we train to be able to defeat him and his followers" he goes with the one course of action that is so diametrically opposed to what was indeed presented already, that it would necessitate probably an entire half movie on it's own to explain how Lule became this bitter and shameful and inactive and depressed, even _if_ we take Rian at face value about Luke's instinct to kill his nephew, which is already a stretch. It just does not make sense.

[@vickyemmans2083]

So people need a manual to get things ? Could have been more flasbacks or whatever to explain things more ? There could have been . Were the stuff there enough to explain and justify things ? If people used their brains yes . But after all these years people still don't get it . I don't believe the problem is that though . The problem is that people (and thats fair) don't like the STORY that's being told regarding Luke . Luke could have been written in different ways and still make sense . This version of Luke we got is by no means out of character . Its the version that we got that people have trouble liking it . They had a different image of Luke in their mind and that's the rooτ of the problem imo.

[@lVideoWatcherl]

@@vickyemmans2083 You do realize that your last sentence very much applies just the other way around? Ask yourself this; do you think George Lucas would have or does approve of how Luke was handled as a character in the Disney sequels? The _inventor_ of the character? Likely not at all, considering his help was turned down, indicating creative differences. Meaning it is far more prudent to assume that it is Rian Johnson and even possibly JJ. Abrams already who "had a different image of Luke in their mind" comparative to the ideal of the character set up in the original trilogy. Interestingly, this criticism comes up so often and in a far more detailed manner than your weak counterargument, that I seriously doubt you have any grounds to argue this claim on. Luke _is not_ shown in all visual media from before the sequel trilogy to be an impulsively angry person who immediately gives up after failure. That is not what the character is presented as. What Johnson did in Ep 8 was _out of character_ for the Luke audiences got to know in the OT. It _needed_ to be explained beyond an incredibly rigid and simplistic and also unfitting short sequence in the form of a flashback. Even _if_ he had the short moment of weakness as described by his feeling tempted to end Kylo Ren's _life,_ which is already absurd but possibly salvageable, we still do not get any good explanation for why Luke, who was _adamant_ about being able to "save" arguably one of the greatest villains in SW, simply retreated and became a hermit. JJ and RJ versions of Luke simply _do not make sense._

[@vickyemmans2083]

@lVideoWatcherl Goerge Lucas is the creator of Star Wars . That will never change that .And as much of a significance this has along with our eternal gratitude it does not make him some sort of an infallible pope . Look at the prequels ,movie wise they are bad ,story wise well we can argue about it .That being said Luke did want to save his father but he ended up cutting his hand off in a maniac way . That makes him impulsive portrayed in the OT period . One growing up does not automatically guarantee to be "purified" by character flaws . Luke being secluded to the island apart from failing as a teacher and an uncle also resulted in him a failing to restore the jedi order ,a responsibility left upon him and just him .That failure too felt personal as well . I don't need any more explaining because these factors make sense why he secluded himself. People need everything being told in every little detail nowadays . Also probably consider that this simply mat be jedi thing to secluded themselves . Yoda did it , Kenobi did it , Luke did it each for their own reasons . And please do not assume things because we have different opinions . It's uncivilized

[@mrajw2456]

I think luke could have been saved in this movie if we saw his vision of the future.

[@yusufraage8554]

Luke as he was in in TLJ is just not the Luke I remember in TRJ. Luke knew his father was the worst of the worst he didnt need to have visions and he knew first hand how he destroyed Alderaan but still saw good in Vader but his nephew who he practically raised he needed only visions.

[@BeastFormal]

I remember really liking this movie when it came out, and was surprised to see so many people hated it. Episode 9 should have continued down this storyline, rather than trying to revert back like it never happened.

[@willigagbob8243]

Continue what storyline?

[@furorteutonicus9045]

The problem is that TLJ did not leave any plots for the last movie to continue. That was the worst thing about this movie because it ruined any potential the trilogy had to being remotely good at the end.

[@freman007]

The Last Jedi was effectively the end of the trilogy. JJ had to pull a lot of stuff out of thin air in order to make a somewhat functional movie.

[@skyguysZ]

Colin trevorrow’s movie, Duel of the Fates, would have actually been a proper sequel to The Last Jedi but Kennedy fired him, leaving us with Rise of Skywalker

[@protokazyii1743]

I agree. I think people blame the last Jedi for the sins of Rise of Skywalker.

[@jeffwpatton]

I never registered what Finn handing Poe the pendant meant, but I always FELT it. You can feel the lack of consequence/tension in the Canto Bight sequence, even if you don't logically know why. Very astute observation, and very simple (and clever) fix.

[@Alexandr-vn4le]

I think it's okay to like this movie (or any movie for that matter). I just can't. I grew up loving the prequels and the originals and its universe. I remember the excitement I felt after watching the TFA trailer and how much I liked it at first. I started to see it's flaws on multiple viewings, but nothing that a good sequel could not expand or explain. Then this movie came out. Man. I've never been more dissapointed by a movie before. I didn't hated it, in fact I thought it's special effects and the photography were stunning, and almost immediatly could see how some people would enjoy this new... take? on the characters. But to me it felt so... small, so inconsequential in the overall storty arc, but also so masively important in the character development (and not in a good way), so dead end'ish, so many oportunities wasted. It felt like an end to trilogy in on itself, but without giving any (good) answers or (good) hints. I left the cinema deflated and confused about how I felt, my friends the same. I tried caring again about these new (and old) characters, but after this movie it was never the same. It basically made me stop caring at all about Star Wars. I don't hate the franchise or this movie. It's just that it made me feel that I didn't love Star Wars the same way as before. And hey, maybe that's a good thing. I just couldn't summon the will to watch the last one of the trilogy. And after hearing it was so bad, I think I don't have any plans to ever watch it. I just go back to reading those amazing old EU books (the good ones). That's my way of coping I guess. I really like them.

[@TisDansk]

Same, main thing for me is the destruction of Luke Skywalker and the disrespect of his character. I cope with reading how cool he is in legends

[@EnclaveArtimas]

Someone should send this to StarWars Theory lol. This is the only time since ROTJ that we have seen Luke being a true Jedi. Throwing his blade away, his actions on Crait, everything about Luke shows his development of being a Jedi of the old learning from their mistakes and realizing to have a new order the old needs to die… including Luke

[@thegoldman25]

I’d love to debate him on Luke in this movie

[@abandonallhope.1040]

@@thegoldman25 Please don’t. You won’t change each other’s minds and just create a lot of negativity.

[@mreszotnik]

@@thegoldman25 SW Theory has warmed up to Luke's portrayal in TLJ over years... slightly. Especially when talking with people he respects kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKXalIuphpuno5Y

[@robin12345665]

his blade away was just for comedy i think.

[@creed8712]

The issue really is we saw this already. We’ve seen Luke be brought low and we’ve seen him fail as a teacher, the difference is as far as I know he never tried to kill Jacen.

[@scott4315498]

Made an hr long video without addressing the biggest issue with these movies. It's an already established universe with established rules...

[@pierredufour6164]

It's nice to see some positivity used with nuance for once, especially for this movie.

[@thegoldman25]

I always try my best, thanks for watching!

[@IGotThisGeorgeLopez1]

The Last Jedi shouldn't had a opening crawl because it just recaps what happened in The Force Awakens as the Last Jedi takes 0 seconds after Force Awakens

[@shabnamrafique7730]

PLease stop calling the Jedi "space wizards" they are not "space wizards" they are space mystics.

[@invidatauro8922]

That really tells me that at the end of the day this guy and all the defenders of this movie just have the mindset of "Movie about space wizards for children"

[@kaysonoleen5261]

the thing about the Rose quote: that’s how Anakin destroyed the Sith. Not by fighting Palpatine necessarily but by saving Luke.

[@nugsnotdrugs7717]

True, but Vader also didn't stop someone else from killing the emperor.

[@giglefreakz]

Responding to a couple select things here. From a narrative perspective, Canto Bight wasn't useless because it set in motion the events that would lead into the 3rd act; without it, the Resistance would have most likely evacuated successfully. Finn's sacrifice would have been in vain regardless of whether or not he could destroy that laser. The Resistance was trapped inside that mine. Without that laser cannon, the best-case scenario was delaying the inevitable. The plot hole with the Dreadnought isn't a plot hole. It's hindsight is 20/20. Leia couldn't have known the future when she demoted Poe and Holdo had a lot more pressing issues then contemplating about what would have happened if that Dreadnought were still around, like dealing with the man who just got almost their entire strike force destroyed by disobeying orders. Furthermore, I think it's a big assumption to say the Dreadnought would have destroyed the Resistance during the chase. Considering how long it took to charge those cannons, I think it's reasonable to assume it couldn't both chase the Resistance and charge its cannons at the same time. In general, I think the term "plot hole" has basically lost all meaning with the way it's used nowadays.

[@thegoldman25]

Nothing makes me happier than people defending even the parts of this movie I don’t particularly like. Thanks for sharing!

[@giglefreakz]

@@thegoldman25 To paraphrase Rogue One, I've been in this fight since I was 19 years old hahaha. I think you've made an excellent and balanced review of this video, even though I may disagree with some points, these are just some of the points I've seen repeated so many times on reddit or twitter that I had to respond to them. It's just nice to make this as a response to someone who also appreciates the film. What is your favourite scene from The Last Jedi, if I may ask? For me, it has to be Luke and Yoda's conversation. "We are what they grow beyond, that is the burden of all masters" is an incredibly underrated line in my opinion!

[@thegoldman25]

100% Yoda’s convo with Luke. That scene makes me emotional, it’s so impactful

[@emperorcorning8329]

Amazing. Every word of what you just said was right. Unfortunately, The Rise of Skywalker exists, and thus throws a MASSIVE wrench into ANY appreciation I have for The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi. It retroactively turned two movies I enjoyed into two movies I despise - at very little fault of their own.

[@killert_7759]

That’s not how it works. A movie’s existence doesn’t put down other movies that came before.

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

@@killert_7759 It shouldn't work that way, but new information retroactively affects how people look at things. Nothing about TFA or TLJ as films changes with ROS, but it's not like they exist in isolation from eachother, no media exists in isolation in general, but these are movies in the same series and setting.

[@officialmonarchmusic]

@@killert_7759 Actually, it does. All three sequels are blocked from my head canon because they invalidate the OG 6

[@killert_7759]

@@officialmonarchmusic ok, that’s you

[@killert_7759]

@@officialmonarchmusic and no, they don’t invalidate the original 6

[@CJDM310]

44:07 it wasn’t just that she didn’t tell Poe ‘the plan’ she refused to say she even had a plan.

[@Black_pearl_adrift]

Wasn’t Poe literally demoted and disciplined at that point for disobeying orders and getting a bunch of people killed??? Idk how you think armies work but that’s not the type of person you tell you plan to 🤷‍♀️

[@c.j.3404]

​@Elesian Subs she didn't tell anybody about a plan that's why she had a mutany on her hands, besides telling people you have a plan is a lot different then telling people the plan.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

​@@Black_pearl_adriftYou somehow missed the point. It's wasn't that Holdo wouldn't tell him her plan, it was that she wouldn't even say she had a plan. The movie clearly shows that the other people on ship are also concerned because Holdo doesn't seem to be doing anything. That's absolutely terrible leadership.

[@Black_pearl_adrift]

@@c.j.3404 wrong. She Poe assumed the plan was running away and giving up, not that she didn’t have a plan

[@Black_pearl_adrift]

@@BiggieTrismegistus not true. Poe did think she had a plan, he just didn’t like it (using the smaller transports to escape)

[@aidanpholi3219]

No, Luke in the OT was super inspirational and always saw the best in everyone no matter what. There’s a million better ways to make his character still work for what happened in the end of 7. Change it so Luke saw the visions of Kylo but because he’s super optimistic and wanted to see the best in him, he continued to train him. He would hope to make him better but he would be betrayed and THAT would make him conflicted from now on. He’s scared to train someone like Rey who had all the darkness after being betrayed by Kylo. Also Luke not being a true Jedi if he had killed a ton of first order members, please. He kills so many people constantly. Death Star 1 had around 2 million people with around 200-300 thousands civilians. That’s a true Jedi…

[@unknownfaces7]

ive seen this somewhere before but i completely agree, this is the only way lukes arc in these movies works in my opinion.

[@machinegunhunt8407]

JJ Abrams directing Star Wars will always be one of the worst decisions Disney has ever done

[@thegoldman25]

JJ got Disney the highest grossing movie domestically all time. I don’t think they regret it

[@machinegunhunt8407]

@@thegoldman25 the rest of us do.

[@cuttlethroat8663]

You claim previous visions becoming true is reason for Luke to take the visions seriously and be quick to action. Except anyone who can think would learn the opposite lesson; that taking actions to stop a vision don't work and aren't worth doing, because everyone who's tried to prevent a vision in the past had no affect. You claim family vs family is different, except you are sorta forgetting a huge detail. Kylo is Han's SON and Han is more family to Kylo than he is to Luke. Imagine how much pain and suffering Luke would cause to Han if he offed his son and then told him it's because he would do bad things in the future. Claiming that Luke's actions were justified because they were for Han's sake is totally absurd. If Luke wanted to cause the least suffering to Han, he would tell his visions to Han and let Han make the decision. Also Luke is not just protective of family, he's also characterized as an optimist and as merciful. And let's not skate past the other glaring issues with Luke's portrayal in this movie. Firstly, this subversion that Luke wants to be unfindable makes no sense when you remember that a map to his exact location was partially stored on R2-D2. Secondly, Luke's conviction that the Jedi must end makes no sense because none of the Jedi's failures were because of the Jedi Code, but because people departed from it. For example, Luke's action to harm Kylo is against the Jedi Code. Luke would know this if he read the Jedi Texts. Why would the audience be on-board with Luke's change in conviction if Luke doesn't seem interested in research? Why should someone who's never read the Jedi texts be the one to decide to retire Jedi philosophy? The way you see TLJ Luke I think says a lot about you as a person, if you think his character makes sense in this movie then you weak grasp on story-telling and logic. I've seen a lot of weird copes for Luke's character assassination in this movie, but I haven't heard yours before. So at least you're original I guess. And to be clear, Luke being disenfranchised with the Jedi COULD have been a really cool plot point if Luke actually had good reasons for his change in convictions. It would have been a boring idea to make Luke a perfect Jesus-like flawless bad-ass in this movie.

[@Infinicat]

I'm gonna stop ya right here 17:45. I think why people call Rey a Mary Sue is because with no prior training with either a lightsaber or the force she somehow stands up to Ben Solo who was trained by both Luke Skywalker and Supreme Leader Snoke who in the absence of Episode 9 is just some random dark side user, sure, but if we add in the context of Episode 9, then he is literally Palpatine's vessel. So we're talking about a fallen Jedi Knight, Kylo Ren, trained by two of the most powerful force users in the galaxy, bested by some girl with no formal training and who hasn't been taught to control or use the Force in any meaningful way. I will grant you that Kylo was weakened during their fight and had to take on Finn briefly as well, but no amount of that should make someone like Kylo any less ferocious or dangerous, certainly not when you consider that maybe at best Rey had a little hand to hand combat experience living on Jakku at best? Myself and fans like me just aren't buying that. Your arguments with Anakin are only half solid because even at 9 years old he had extensive experience piloting podracers. Luke maybe made that death star trench run shot with the force, whom he actively trained on screen with Obi Wan to learn to use at all, and also mentions prior experience shooting creatures of similar size to the death star's exhaust port, none of which Rey has any on-or-off-screen established lore for by the end of Episode 7. I agree that her training with Luke could have left her stronger in parts of 8 and 9, but up until that point she was given ability far beyond what she had any established lore reason to have said ability and that is the issue. I'm not even that big of a hater of the sequels. I didn't really enjoy them that much, and I found a lot of the stuff in Episode 8 particularly jarring and nonsensical, but as movies they're entertaining enough on their own I suppose. I just want continuity and for things to make sense and be at least a little bit grounded, and much of these sequel trilogy's essence have no basis in established lore and canon or seek to actively "subvert" that lore and canon with utter nonsense. Hell Episode 8 is rife with scenes that just make no sense - like when Kylo blasts that hangar and Poe plot armors his way out of that situation - and the vacuum of space conveniently doesn't work - not to mention how does Kylo escape a dead end corridor that leads only to the inside of the Resistance capital ship while flying at full speed - only for a few scenes later to show that the vacuum of space works fine, actually, because Leia gets blasted out into it moments later. I don't know man, I'm just saying giving fair criticism on these things shouldn't be viewed with such hostility. But at the same time, people harping on this stuff are passionate fans, sure, but there is plenty of Star Wars material equally as nonsensical that they don't complain about. But let's not try and pretend like Rey did anything to earn her power in Episode 7, that's just straight up farcical.

[@AT_BASE]

Rian Johnson’s big mistake was assuming Star Wars fans understand Star Wars

[@virgogaming6488]

Why would they? They don't even understand the prequels.

[@vincentd.2284]

You don't need to understand Star Wars to know what it feels like. Fans at least know what SW feels like and most agree that putting all the original heroes in disgrace, killing them one by one and negating their entire struggle from the OT doesn't feel like SW

[@elijahalexander1926]

If you walked into your hotel room and the walls were a different color; how is the first question you asked not “am I in the wrong room?”

[@akihikosanada2020]

Honest to god, ive seen this movie 4 times and i can never bring myself to hate it, the bad stuff is incredibly bad, but the stuff surrounding Luke, Kylo and Rey is genuinely super interesting and borderline thought provoking at times.

[@lukepoe1140]

No amount of time that passes will make The Last Jedi or the other sequels better. The damage has been done. They sank the Star Wars franchise to a new low. These films are so awful that they make the prequels look great in comparison. Nothing made a lick of sense, and we're all tired of beating this dead horse.

[@champcpr]

Rey, without knowing what the force is or how to use it did a Jedi mind trick like a day after finding out about the force and without knowing mind tricks exist... and there's absolutely no excuse for her beating Kylo. Being distressed only fed his power,he was literally striking his wounds to feed his anger and lost to someone swinging a lightsaber like a bat 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@Millenium2927]

At this point it seems the people who defend Rey’s powers are just trolls riling up the fans

[@champcpr]

@@Millenium2927 I try to understand it, but none of it makes sense... like damn am I the crazy one 🤣

[@neutronstarpilot4393]

I mean some Star wars fans have always had complaints about all of the movies since Empire, Literally a Star wars magazine stopped publishing issues because they couldn't get behind TESB, They said it fractured the fan base. Then some fans had issues with Jedi ( Ewoks) Then the prequel backlash. Seems more of the same, and now most fans mostly enjoy them. time moves on fans tend to appreciate and enjoy the movies younger fans growing up and appreciate their trilogy along with the rest of Star Wars

[@matthewmatthew1699]

The problem with this movie is that you have to assume a lot. If Rian made his reasoning clearer, this movie wouldn’t have been as hated.

[@invidatauro8922]

That's probably why a lot of people like it. Makes them feel smart and they can just essintially imagine the movie they want.

[@hoodiepen]

This is the movie where everything went downhill. When the franchise lost its trust to its fans for a loooong time before The Mandalorian redeemed it.

[@ravenwilder4099]

I'd just like to note: psychologists now largely consider repressed memories to be bunk; efforts to "unlock" repressed memories actually just imprint false memories into people's heads.

[@bitteroldhousecat9304]

Correct. Was gonna type something about it, but this says it as good as can be. Oldman here said it very condescendingly, which makes him look like a bit of a jack ass. Research beyond the headline Oldman.

[@theomnitorium7476]

Great Analysis! Perfectly describes why I'm so torn on this movie. I absolutely love the Rey, Luke and Kylo story. It is probably the most human story told in any Star Wars movie. Not as black and white as most of the rest, but a perfect tale of how we struggle as humans. But the Finn, Poe and Rose part of the movie falls completely flat. The arcs make no sense, are rushed or confusing, and they all behave contradictory. The bizarre slo mo space chase narrative framework doesn't help either.

[@thegoldman25]

Thank you for watching!

[@davidtreece3922]

I pretty much respected most of the stuff you said even if a disagreed until you got to luke which is the most important thing to understand about Starwars and is kind of a tell tale sign that you understand the main character of the OT but you dissappinted me greatly. Your very good at articulating incorrect points to be sure but if Mark Hammil and George Lucas are telling you your wrong...your wrong dude.

[@danielroth382]

42:45 I would still argue that the main problem is why Poe made the decision. He did not blew up the Dreadnought because he knew better and that the first order could follow them, he did it because he just wanted to hurt the enemy and not protect his fellow people. Granted with his decision he saved everybody but the motivations he had were wrong.

[@CJDM310]

I disagree, he clearly said the dreadnaught was a fleet killer. He knew full well that this ship could not be allowed to linger.

[@danielroth382]

@@CJDM310 True, but just like everyone else, he did not know that the ship could follow them trough hyperspace. If he had known better than anyone else and told them the first Order could follow them his reasoning would be ok. With the knowledge everyone had at the moment Leias decision to escape and fight another time was the right one and Poe just got lucky but this does not mean that his disbehavior will work in the future.

[@invidatauro8922]

@@danielroth382 Not sure what else they could've done. The fighters and bombers were already out, and those slow as bombers were in no way going to get back to the ship before the dreadnaught took a shot.

[@aschaf277]

I totally respect any opinions that disagree with me but gosh... this was easily my least favorite movie I've ever seen

[@mangalhao_0]

Another banger video by the Gold Man ! Love the reviews keep em commin !

[@thegoldman25]

Thanks! Will do!

[@bricelevai8520]

- Finn was ruined and he was sidelined. If you cut Finn from the movie, the movie is the same. - Luke acting out of character, it’s just not Luke, and his change is unearned and unexplained. - Snoke unexplained, First Order unexplained. Sure, Kylo is a good character, but the catalyst moment of his character is also what ruins Luke…. For no reason. Johnson failed to make Rey compelling and give her a real struggle and growth. Also Rey is a Marie Sue because she beats everyone with no training. She’s not really a character at all. Which is a shame because Daisey is great, they could have used her range much more. As far as Star Wars goes, Disney doesn’t seem to know to create good characters without ruining existing ones

[@TheCrazySportsDude]

Minor nitpick but as a psych student: repressed memories aren’t real (but it’s a myth so widely believed that most people assume its fact)

[@rongoldman7520]

17:20 the guards are force-sensitive and trained, just not as strong with the force, which Rey trained in for a single day.

[@thegoldman25]

Let me guess, some book told you that?

[@yourewrong9028]

It’s not even true. I’ve read a bunch of books and seen no evidence for this, and I looked one Wookieepedia and it has no mention either.

[@ace0071000]

So they're just... not strong enough in the Force to stand up to Rey (and Kylo, combined). Force really do be like that

[@Millenium2927]

Rey literally just found out she even had the force 4 days earlier… commentors saying she’s OP are justified. People who call her a Mary Sue have a very strong argument

[@docvader82]

That opening line about dividing the audience...... that works for indie films and such. It's NOT proper for an established IP like this. There's so many people to blame for this. RJ, Kathleen Kennedy.... Character assasinations all over the place.

[@tristanmoore9653]

Won’t someone think of the BRAND?

[@MsIvalane]

God, I *loved* the reveal about Rey's parents being no-one. You nailed it, it represented a democratization of the Force that we had only seen in now Legends material, really. It was the character work for those outside of Rey and Kylo that really killed it for me; I hated what they did to Luke with essentially no explanation, save 'subverting expectation!', I was *still* sad about Han just being another example of the 'boy grows up to be a terrible father' trope, the handling of both Finn and Poe felt terrible. Honestly, I think this was the moment I realized that there was no plan, that nothing was going to come together to make this satisfying on any level. At least it meant I went into TRoS without any real expectation I guess. . . the spectacle of it was pretty bomb.

[@alexandrebirk1948]

@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 you do not understand if you have seen or readd any legend serie he heroes are always related to someone: everyone is a Skywalker descendant, knew Obiwan or any important prequel or OG Trilogie so having finally a protagonist force sensitive related to no one in any sense is important

[@stephane9579]

Honestly that reveal was shit.

[@stephane9579]

@@a.wadderphiltyr1559 You missed the whole point. None of these characters are main characters that we follow and if they are, they have other reasons for being in the story aside from that, and lastly THEY ARE TRAINED. Rey's story is supposed to be a hero's journey but if you give her all the cheat codee at the beginning of the game, why would I continue following her ?

[@invidatauro8922]

"Only seen in legends" So the entire Jedi order just didn't exist. Not a single jedi there had any special lineage.

[@CoDStickz]

After TFA everybody speculated about who her parents where because 1. her only goal was to find them again and 2. Since she had never received any training, she was way too powerful with the force and knowledgable about force abillities to be a random. In TLJ they upped her powers even more and got rid of the only reason their could be of her being so powerful. Rise of Skywalker had to bring back palp to get a new baddie since snoke got offed in TLJ and they decided to tie her to him to explain her powers. I would've prefered her parents to be nobody as well but an explanation for her powers was needed after they made a mess by making her so powerful without training.

[@alexanderkruglov5199]

43:43 and what was the plan for the fact that the dreadnought would shoot them right during the evacuation? What is he actually going to do before his destruction. Man, I hate those bombers, they're dull as a flat. Even if more of them reached the target, would the result be different? Wouldn't they explode from the detonation of self-dropped bombs? Leah should be mad at herself for buying kamikaze bombers. Going further: if Po retreats, but the dreadnought, for some reason, does not shoot emidietly, and then, after the jump, also does not shoot for some reason, the hangar is blown up by tie-fighters, yes, with bombers inside, and the whole Radus explodes, not only the hangar. Yes, perhaps the bombs will not detonate in the hangar, but the dreadnought is still in service, but there are no bombers left to destroy it, what is the plan for this?

[@zippymufo9765]

This trilogy was like some warped post-modern deconstruction of "fan culture cinema"-----no real story or plotting, no real characters, just a procession of signifiers and semiotics.

[@Derekivery]

I don't agree or disagree with everything GoldMan says but his views on Luke are just objectively wrong. Not his opinion, in fact I share his opinion for the most part but his analysis. He attacks people's criticism of Luke based on the assumption that "Luke saw a vision of Han Solo dying" and then builds on it with "Well if you saw a vision of your best friend dying, you would XYZ just like Luke" he repeats this over and over and over again. While people can interpret that line of "everything I love" to mean he saw a vision specifically of Han (and/or Leia) dying, that's not what was presented on screen. And if you're going to make such a massive change in the character (to the point that the actor is complaining) you shouldn't be vague with what caused their motivation change. Fans who were happy with the development of Luke were 100% right to be happy, and fans who were pissed with the development of Luke were 100% right to be pissed. Johnson was wanted a film that divided the fan base and that's what he got.

[@thegoldman25]

Even with the disagreements, I appreciate you at least going through and watching everything!

[@Derekivery]

@@thegoldman25 Well even with the disagreement, I appreciate you reading my comment and responding. Keep making videos.

[@kalebdiaz1671]

Tbf Finn says to Poe “it’ll save the fleet and it’ll save Rey” he is just saving the fleet to save Rey, he was leaving with the beacon when they caught him, he was just looking out for her not the resistance

[@jgstylz]

This movie is if AIDS had cancer. Stop defending it.

[@yom0mma214]

Goldman is aids himself Disney cuck

[@czoborarpi]

Your reasoning fr Luke is flawed. In Empire he learned that the visions he can see via the Force is not written in stone. And as he became older one would expect him to understand this even more.

[@billfrankfurt5133]

I’ve never seen anyone defend this movie, I had to turn it off. The disrespect to the original and the connection between Ray and Kylie was too much. Ray also had Fin who loved her and Poe. Fin was the most like her, natural love interest.

[@filipeduarte3093]

I shall state this: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes." You are so self-absorbed by your own little theories that you enclose yourself in your own little pocket version of Star Wars and think nothing of anyone else's take on this. Claiming that you love Rey and her journey is a testament of how much credit we should be giving you... which is zero... Mike Zeroh.

[@thegoldman25]

harsh

[@SchultzDorinda]

Congratulations, everything you just said is an absolute. You speak as if you have a right to speak for everybody. Gold Man only gave his own personal opinion. You may disagree with him, but that does not give you the right to be an assh*le.

[@imatooltoo]

As I grew older, I and so many others after witnessing these new Disney movies, realized that George had a vision, loved every second of it, and that had much wisdom for philosophy. That's all it literally took for people to be fond of the prequels more. You can pretend that the sequels will have that change too in the future, but it never will. It's very obvious it won't be. I don't care how much TLJ was a Rian Johnson fingerprint. It's not the franchise to do that shit with. I don't even want to imagine if he did all 3. JJ played it right in my eye with the first one. He was going into it without that crap. Now if you had someone with past experience with Star Wars already, like the Filony whatever guy who made The Clone Wars and Mando, then yeah give him the movies and let him put that fingerprint all over it. He has proven himself countless times he understands the galaxy of Star Wars. Not Ryan though, and I don't understand where that praise is coming from, just because he put his identity in it. I put all my soul into my shits. Should I be keeping them? I just might be missing something. There are some great aspects to TLJ, I will agree. A lot of it is the characters most of the time. That doesn't just automatically make everything better, though, and I can't stand that attitude from so many people I know and now you. It's like you just cannot accept it as a bad movie overall, and hang on these small good aspects for some strange reason, often sometimes gaslighting yourself to like it. What it seems like to me, anyway. I love video games, and have seen my fair share of video game reviews. They would NEVER go "yeah well this new game sucks 80% of the whole. game, but you get these little nuggets from 2 sidequests, so go ahead and spend $260 on the deluxe collectors edition!" like, what lol. It's always okay to bring out the good in something bad to light, but I only ever see this weird thing people do with movies and TV shows, where they play certain music to invoke emotion, and have the person talking about the few good stuff like it's life changing, and that people just don't understand, and end the whole video off with that positivity like it means something. There's this new fucking kids show call Bluely or something, and I kid you not folks, this dude (not this gold man), exactly how I explained it, tries SO hard to tell you just how this kids show actually is deep and mature, just because it has incredibly slight adult undertones like the parents looking at each other when something is talking about a baby. Again I only see this weird thing when people like you talk about movies or TV shows. I don't know who started it, and why it's so popular. It's almost weirdly manipulative with the music and tone, too.

[@TheGoodGeneral59]

My whole problem with Poe getting slack for the Dreadnought mission is that *everyone* on the bombers and fighters also went in. Poe is the only one blamed, despite there very clearly being some kind of planned use for the bombers. The act of him distracting and blasting the defense guns on the Dreadnought would be pointless if there werent a larger attack planned. And even if we set that aside and cast blame on Poe, he still hold a lot of clout with the Resistance. He *just* blew up Starkiller base and is one of the aces of the Resistance. Holdo just blowing him off and disregarding one of their best and most loyal pilots just churns the discontent and fear in ship just decapitated of its leadership. Even moreso if Holdo is telling *nobody* of this plan, not even staff officers.

[@TheeWandaStan]

poe led that mission and when it failed, he was demoted. everyone else that went along with poe died.

[@germanscience7246]

​@@TheeWandaStannot they didn't. While all rhe bombers died yes, you can see several of the fighters survived and made it back to the raddus, whom are then promptly destroyed by kylo in the hanger

[@hugospiegel]

This movie is off, it's disconnected from the rest of StarWars universe. Calling people idiots doesn't make you clever, only arrogant. Rey is a Mary Sue because she didn't earn any of her abilities and everything came easy to her. Did she have internal struggles, like daddy issues? Maybe. But Luke and Anakin definatelly had it too, only much worse and nuanced then she had. In addition, they also struggled physically, they had to build themselves from ground zero, externally AND INTERNALLY, making them both much more layered, deep, relatable and complex characters then Rey. You can offend people all you want, but that won't change the fact that this movie is trash.

[@romulus8525]

36:55 It also has no emotional impact because it's weird to call yourself rebel scum when you're on the side of the recognized ruling faction in the Galaxy, technically he would be rebel scum if he was on the FO side but hey Disney didn't care about world building so why should we? 45:05 I honestly don't know if you are trolling by playing this scene while saying "characters face the realistic consequences of their actions". Finn and Rose should 100% be dead or captured in this scene. Even if they lived through the crash to begin with (thanks to Rose's amazing powers of teleportation to be able to catch up and ram into Finn), the walkers would just gun them down when they see Finn dragging Rose all the way back to the bunker.

[@DandineGacha]

47:36 There is a deleted scene right after Luke throws the lightsaber but before Chewbacca breaks down the hut door and Luke asks about Han right? Do you think that is the reason they cut it? Very Interesting, Great video!

[@thegoldman25]

not sure, thanks for watching though!

[@cennon]

5 years later and I'm still traumatized over this movie.

[@rogerbennett9598]

Yessss … I compare every directionless bad movie to this one

[@catwrangler7907]

What they did to Luke I will never ever forgive

[@Blue-Apple-fc9eo]

@@catwrangler7907 Damn who hurt you? it’s just a movie.

[@catwrangler7907]

@@Blue-Apple-fc9eo just a movie ok. Dump all your vinyl in the trash and start supporting a different football team after all its just sport and some old music.

[@Blue-Apple-fc9eo]

@@catwrangler7907 First of off: I don’t watch sports. Second of off: It’s pretty pathetic that you get this upset over your favorite sport team didn’t win and starting to call the other team fans idiots, Grow the fuck up.

[@Film0Graphic]

I remembered always thinking Snoke was so deformed due to his connection to the Dark Side, tied with my theory about Palpatine from the Prequels (which I'll explain later) where he was using so much dark side energy it deformed him and made him look more and more decrepit. Which fits in with the idea that Palpatine wasn't actually being hurt during his little lightning uno-reverse moment in Revenge of the Sith, Sheev in the scene uses his lightning on Windu only for Windu to reverse it on him and it "messes up" Palpatine, but I always thought that Palpatine was using so much dark side energy that it was causing his skin to deform and the lightning didn't actually hurt him that much. He feigned an injury to further manipulate Anikin to fall further to the dark side and attack Windu. Sadly, as of RoS Snoke was just a disfigured clone of Palpatine wtf....

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

40:37 The last Jedi clearly makes a difference between good and bad sacrifices. (1) Good sacrifices are those whose purpose is only to save the resistance. Such as Holdo's and Luke's (note how Holdo wasn't going to sacrifice herself until the rebels were being shot at). (2) Bad sacrifices are those whose purpose are soley to hurt the first order, like Rose's sister Paige Tico and Finn's. If Finn would've sacrificed himself there, nothing would happen. It wouldn't have save the resistance. It would've only delayed their doom. It's even questionable whether the cannon would've been destroyed seeing how the ship was melting. Poe and Rose makes it clear that it would be suicide. But Finn was blinded by his goal to hurt the first order (see the quote "I won't let them win").

[@1000g2g3g4g800999]

Well, in the quote "I won't let them win," them winning entails them crushing the resistance. So it was him trying to hurt them to save the resistance. Yeah, don't think it would have worked, but I don't think his intent was solely to hurt the First Order.

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

@@1000g2g3g4g800999 if both Rose and Poe tells him it's suicide and won't do anything to save them, And Finn still does it, then he's not doing it to save them but only to hurt the first order.

[@freman007]

@@Yoda-wf6bu And how is Rose supposed to be a reliable source? She's the person who believes that freeing pampered racehorses to starve in the wilderness is a victory, and leaving child slaves enslaved is just... eh... whatever. She didn't matter to the movie at all, and the entire Canto Bight sequence could have been eliminated if someone, like Finn, had simply said, "You know, I think I know some of the codes to bypass those imperial shields." A third of the movie eliminated with one line of dialogue.

[@Yoda-wf6bu]

@@freman007 what are you on about? You don't think Rose is in position to tell Finn that sacrificing yourself to destroy a weapon that can *only blow up a door* is a bad thing? How about Poe, is he a "reliable source"?? And don't make up problems that aren't there. Like how do you know they were going to starve in the wilderness? And why are you wordplaying? They aren't saying their trip to canto bight was a "victory". It was a total defeat, but they say it was still "worth it." Finn think it was worth it because it damaged the city of corrupt people, meanwhile Rose thinks it's worth it because they were able to save some of the city's victims. It's connected to the theme of the movie and the rebels' ideology (not fighting what we hate, saving what we love). If they were able to save the children they totally would. But you got to understand that Rose and Finn thinks the survival of the resistance depend on them. They can't go on side missions. The reason they saved the horses is simply because it allowed them to escape. You can put in as many convenient dialogues you like, to skip certain parts in a story. But that doesn't make these parts meaningless. Canto bight serves an huge role for the themes of the movie (failure, saving what you love, light vs dark, how myth inspire hope to others) and for Finn's arc (choose which side you are on). Rose's role was to be the angel on Finn's shoulder and teach him to fight for the rebels' ideals and for the light, not just to fight the first order.

[@XtasePrime]

Still the worst thing ever to happen to Star Wars, this movie lost Disney billions of future dollars. Not millions........billions.................

[@damienruzco]

Wait Ned Stark dying was subverting exceptions? Hell I was surprised Sean Bean even lasted more that 3 episodes in a role

[@freman007]

In A Game of Thrones characters surviving is "subverting expectations".

[@rajivseereeram575]

Ok.... but the fact that you have to put so much effort into explaining the motives and reasons behind the characters archs means that the movie failed in conveying the plot. I.e. the movie was bad.

[@thegoldman25]

i didn't put that much effort, it was pretty easy

[@yom0mma214]

@@thegoldman25 you did bozo bringing up Lebron randomly to defend Mary sue you need some Plan B from allat diccriding bozo moron

[@BlueCity15]

3:52 what you have described with Shrek is called a nonsequitor. It is not subverting expectations

[@krypto051]

What is the music that plays when the chapter titled show? I just can't put my head around it, and want to listen to it fully

[@Lord-Of-Light]

You started of well with your explanations and perspective, but then you became more and more of an apologist. The primary objective of a movie is to tell a good story, and if it’s so complex that the majority of people misunderstand almost every aspect of it, then it’s not a well-made movie.

[@eddiemcgrath8536]

I'm not that into STAR WARS, liked the first two, hated the third and the first two prequels but, I really enjoyed The Last Jedi and don't understand all the hate.