David Holmgren: "Small and Slow Solutions - Permaculture Design" | The Great Simplification #96

[@99Atana]

I loved this conversation. Often it feels like some of the people are not living in the real world. With David he clearly has both feet in reality and it was really uplifting listening to him.

[@robertocupaniopsisanacardi9458]

David Holmgren!!! I'm a massive fan! I love his book retrosubia

[@TransitionWhatcom-hg6br]

Finally! I've been waiting and wanting a conversation between Nate and David Holmgren!

[@jenniferl8714]

Magnificent discussion. David is a man with highly developed consciousness. That creates the humility he displays. He provides a compelling, hopeful yet realistic view of our future - beautifully summarised in the closing discussion. And I note there are useful roles for all ages. Thank you both. 🙏❤️

[@kirstinseaver574]

Still have my original copies of PC 1 bought in 1979 and PC 2 a few years later. Never gets old… love your work David ❤

[@notafantbh]

Thank you Nate for being so consistent with your podcast, it's really great to be able to have such great conversations available to everyone

[@MichaelMcgarrity-ys8wf]

I like Permaculture because it focuses on improving highly diverse local Environments. Most one sized fits all Global Solutions don't fit highly variable Local Environment. Permaculture does. We now see some aspects of Permaculture underway in places such as American Appalachian mountain Forrest with restoration of American Chestnut Trees, a process that will take Decades. Permaculture takes a long view. Another great Guest. TY.

[@mrbisse1]

David Holmgren and I are of a similar age and, in a way, a similar academic background. I was surprised to hear him mention Howard Odum. I, too, bought and read his book when it first came out (though I have always confused his work with that of his brother's Eugene). If I'm not mistaken the daughter of one of the two of them continued his work. By mentioning "The Limits to Growth", the name of Dennis Meadows and Jay??? Forester??? came to mind with "Systems Dynamics". It was fascinating for me to hear him describe in some detail what I so frustratingly witnessed with the 50 years or so of the "smothering" of this knowledge. Since I was in the Peace Corps in the boonies of Brazil from 1968 to 1971, I had plenty of time to study what I could get a hold of. (I wonder how many people realize how influential "The Whole Earth Catalog" was back then.) Wonderful interview and SOOO pleasant to hear David speak. I believe it was he whom I heard debate someone some 20??? years ago, and at the time I was similarly impressed. I can't quite say that I think David has everything right, but he would not say that he does anyway. The one comment that I make again and again about your posts, Nate, is that you undervalue the impact of the arts -- especially the narrative arts -- in changing paradigms -- even as I see that you are influenced by them e.g. "the Mordor economy". You've made one post (that I know of) dealing with the narrative arts with the author of "Ministry for the Future", but that was not enough. You and your guests so often talk about the need for immediate change, but you leave out one of the best agents for that change.

[@chookbuffy]

Yeah that’s a good point you raise. It is possibly a bias in a lot of us male technical thinkers.

[@drillerdev4624]

​@@chookbuffywe can be reached, by using the right channels. Probably my biggest influence regarding ecology and water usage came from reading Dune (the book and then the saga) during my uni years.

[@chookbuffy]

whoever controls Arrakis...@@drillerdev4624

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Fantastic interview. Great to hear from David.

[@TheSpacemanjane]

Just the basic stuff I've done in my own backyard here in Australia have shown great results, especially with my veggies. Permaculture has the ability to scale food production of seasonal veggies and fruits to feed everyone and restore natural systems. Fantastic interview with David.

[@glennjgroves]

I have listened to David many times - and read many books by David or similar people - and I STILL hear things I had not heard before, or hear things in new or more clear ways. (Mainly new or more clear ways nowadays.) Brilliant.

[@pascalxus]

I loved learning and listening to this. Permaculture is so fascinating. I think historians from thousands of years in the future from now, will find presentations like this centuries ahead of their time.

[@kriswalter560]

This is such a great channel. I hope one day to see Nate smile or laugh.

[@anthonytroia1]

this is weird

[@b2jutsao]

​@anthonytroia1 what's weird?

[@wizardoftas7779]

You have to watch all of them. I remember seeing a lip wrinkle two years ago.

[@scottegner306]

Loved this discussion. Permaculture has been a big part of our life for the last 10 years..

[@edgeman148]

Absolutely wonderful and the good news is that permaculture exists on all Continents and in every Country on Earth.

[@urallwyz3498]

Very good conversation

[@ethanswanson9209]

Great guest! Seems he’s always trying to focus on the reality of things. Sadly internet clicks seem to come more to fitting everything into preconceived thought patterns. Thank you for talking with him.

[@tomatao.]

Thanks for getting Holmgren on - hopefully no-one gives attention to his more controversial public appearances and uses that to discredit his content. 100% please get Geoff Lawton on though, the man has done so much good work around the planet to support those in need and continues to contribute so much Also Rosemary Morrow is an excellent voice who has done amazing work helping refugee camps in the developing world

[@BrysonKeenan]

Interested to see which appearances you see as controversial (?), as I haven’t seen anything I would label as such

[@tomatao.]

@@BrysonKeenan there was a big uproar about him being pictured alongside people associated with far right in an antivax march. A blog post goes into more detailed called "a rift in permaculture"

[@adrianhodgson4448]

I've always been skeptical of Geoff Lawton.. perhaps a conversation with Nate may shed some better light for me to give him a chance

[@tomatao.]

@@adrianhodgson4448what are you skeptical of? I've been trying to keep up tp date with what he does for 15 years and did his online course some years ago. I can tell you, the man is legitimate and has a legacy that backs him up

[@TesaSilvestre]

So many gems in this rich, deep, thoughtful conversation. One of my favorites was @25:00 "When people talk about scaling, they often miss that there are two different ways. You can scale by growth of systems and you can scale by replication. And viral replication is actually a faster -- in some cases -- but also a less risky and higher learning pathway, by lots and lots of copying and morphing and modification of small-scale systems."

[@Robert-qh3ok]

thank you so much Nate for continuing to outdo yourself in these vital interviews...well done!

[@FREEAGAIN432]

fantastic conversation. Thank you Nate. Inspiring. This podcast affirmed some really important things for me. Very excited to buy Retro Suburbia book.

[@BetterAncestors]

What a beautiful conversation. Two great minds in synch, Thank you both.

[@SHANONisRegenerate]

Made my day man. Loved the talk guys one of the best interviews ive heard with David on KZbin.

[@anthonytroia1]

YO! David Holmgren! Doesn't get any more OG than this. 😍

[@Igel-jo8xv]

A pleasure to listen to you both and despite these extraordinary times often grim and foreboding, to see well established laugh lines on both your faces springs significant hope and purpose.

[@RodBarkerdigitalmediablog]

Thank you Nate and David, this podcast discussion is very interesting indeed. Thank you for the many useful examples and insights to shift the paradigm. We need to reduce many inputs and outputs, to restore ecosystems and reconnect with eachother to build communities that care. The shallow goals and desires of the capitalist consumerist construct are leading us faster towards massive destruction. The principles and practise of permaculture provide an essential part of the roadmap for a smart simplification.

[@kieranaland4724]

Great work Nate. Thank you for this contribution. Your work is appreciated and revelatory to many.

[@zpettigrew]

Fantastic work again. To both gentlemen.

[@ЄвгенійДаценко-н9л]

Фантастично! Ідеї Г. Одума в поєднанні з мудрістю корінних жителів та сучасного стану біогеосфери дає можливість по новому організувати життя людського і не людських видів. Ідеї ощадливості, достатності, енергетичної мудрості, рішень "на віки" можливо дозволить у майбутньому створити дійсно стійке суспільство.

[@Fionnualagh]

Great job getting these details into the conversation. The problem is the solution 👍 And a new perspective on parasitism, the dopamine buzz from scavenging then to create something functional and beautiful is an untold story.

[@smartcaja6681]

This was a incredible interesting interview. Thank to both of you.

[@carolspencer6915]

Good afternoon Nate and David Sounds like a bit of a plan, for sure. Super interesting. Again thankyou. 💜

[@BrysonKeenan]

Great to see David on the podcast, but would have liked to have seen further discussion on his Future Scenarios work

[@chookbuffy]

Agreed. They are pretty compelling and would have been good to see contrasted with Nate’s ones

[@jjuniper274]

I love this discussion. Thank you Nate and David.

[@mmraike]

Another great episode. Thank you!

[@michbishee]

Even the best ideas when introduced top down come unstuck...so many gems, thanks David & Nate ✌

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

Thank you Nate and David.

[@humantouchfacetoface5480]

Proud to be Australian ❤

[@kernfel]

Ears perked up immediately at the mention of John Michael Greer. I've been listening to your work, Nate, for a while, though I've much still to hear; I've also been following JMG for some time now. I recently commented to him that he should reach out and get himself into this series, at which he informed me that you're pals and you'd well know how to reach him if the fancy struck you. With this said, consider this my formal appeal to you: I would dearly love to spend two hours listening to the two of you talk, particularly given your continued, if low-key, emphasis on "inner tech", for which I'm sure you know John Michael has plenty to say. ... on the other hand, I'd understand if you consider his views and beliefs on the subject to be too far removed from the present-day view of the world and therefore too big a risk to your brand.

[@ricos1497]

Second this. John Michael Greer would be fantastic.

[@A3Kr0n]

I liked David's honesty when he said near the end that any solution he comes up with he can find a reason why it will make things worse. I don't know the future, but I usually end up imagining millions of people from Illinois coming up to Wisconsin looking for food because they know we have cheese, summer sausage and beer.

[@DavidMarcotte-xx1nw]

Yes, permaculture is the way!

[@fjwhite13]

I confess I got lost in the conversation. I was hoping to hang my hat on two hooks: One: What is David's measurable expected outcome of Permaculture? and Two: What measurement stick does he use to assess the extent to which he is achieving his expected outcome?

[@GhostOnTheHalfShell]

Interesting stuff. Perma culture is a cornerstone to evolving beyond oil. Anthropology has a term that encompasses repurposing, lateral cycling. But remember the environment will not be a stable thing for the foreseeable future. Adaptation over each decade may become the hallmark of future societies. This is a very new challenge.

[@tonybaldwin6280]

John(connor)Kempf through plant nutrition gets systemic resistance to pests and diseases while building soil carbon and greater yeilds. His goal is to have regenerative agriculture as mainstream.

[@louisegogel7973]

3:06 Permaculture at its essence is a design system. And it’s a design system for resilient and regenerative land use in all its forms… for living…. it is permanent agriculture, and permanent culture.

[@jeffmartin52]

Thank you for this discussion! I’ve been a big proponent of local systems of resources and regenerative agriculture. We’re in the process of getting established on a 10 acre plot that will have about 7 acres of agricultural use, the rest is treed but will still get some browsing for the goats. My main concern is having the time to get on our feet before a major economic collapse. I would love to see food cooperatives in each small community stocked with local and networked goods and produce.

[@antonyjh1234]

Why do you see economic collapse before you get on your feet? 10% of the ice at the fastest rate, at 5c, to melt is supposed to take 330 years, 730 at the slowest and 550 median. If you believe that dramatic change is coming in your lifetime then won't buying land that can now produce food but won't in the next few decades be a poor decision?

[@odhrancrowe3894]

Arctic amplicafation intensification. Sea levels are the least of our problems.

[@antonyjh1234]

And the lag time for that? Considering it's frozen and a carbon mass will be added in the form of microbes, we couldn't grow that mass in tree's but would if we could and would be many multiples in tonnage, which won't really emit until the food source runs out, the stored carbon. It's not like oh gee the arctic reached air temps above zero that everything is going to come at us at once.@@odhrancrowe3894

[@jeffmartin52]

@@antonyjh1234, it has nothing to do with global warming, ice melt or anything concerning the climate. Maybe you haven’t noticed what our current administration is doing? It seems they are intent on crashing the system for the great reset.

[@sendler2112]

It was very refreshing to hear one of the forefathers of permaculture speak about Nitrogen being possible to fix from the air if you rotate an appropriate crop and leave it in the soil. While also telling us that when you take productivity out of a field, the minerals such as Phosphorous, and Potassium that cannot come from the air go with it and must be put back from somewhere else. There was also no mention of the counterintuitive statements that I often hear by proponents that organic or permaculture agriculture will somehow yield MORE calories per acre than our modern farming with fertilizer and pumped water when all of the charts I see show that average crop yields have tripled (at least) due to modern techniques.

[@ЄвгенійДаценко-н9л]

Йдеться про сукупні калорії на акр. На полі ваш акр це пшениця чи кукурудза. В пермакультурі ваш акр це харчовий ліс, три яруси фруктів, горіхів, зелені, бульб, лози винограду, тварин і комах що живуть там, тощо.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

Human beings do not live on calories alone, this is a ruse put out by the agribusiness fascists as that is all their crops have to offer. Permaculture is about small diverse holdings, biointensive care, raising food with much higher nutrition, with lifestyle efficiencies, produce more than ten times that of chemical agriculture, the studies are easy to find. Still, permaculture can actively design broad acres for wilder living but not to feed cities like is now the case. As the soil continues to degrade chemical agriculture will have a harder time of it. Some areas have already been abandoned...

[@carly09et]

Permaculture does not produce more calories, it cycles more calories. Using seven to one genomes - modern agriculture focuses on one end product, permaculture has at least seven end uses. This nets to more calories for people via less 'shrinkage' . Modern techniques substitute fossil calories for local organic calories. Example Haber process nitrate VS legume nitrogen fixing. The question is how you do your accounting.

[@ricos1497]

​@@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigneryour last point is the most pertinent here. The big agriculture system essentially cheats by stealing soil and energy from the future. It creates a debt that needs to be repaid. Thus the number of calories it produces now is a silly measure as it doesn't account for time. By degrading the soil, my field can only produce 150 harvests of Haber Bosch crops at X calories. Whereas my permaculture field can produce thousands of years, even if the yield is lower.

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

A yield of calories really is nothing important to lie itself. Its just weight for money. Thanks for your insightful reply!

[@andywilliams7989]

Subversive to GDP. One phrase to explain what would otherwise need hours of explaining. Thanks guys

[@adrianhodgson4448]

David Holmgren, Daniel Schmachtenberger, and Nora Bateson round table?

[@j.s.c.4355]

One thing for us to be very afraid of is the destruction of carrying capacity by extended overshoot. A short overshoot followed by a correction might be fine, but we are lined up for the possibility of an overshoot that lasts more than a century. in that time, we can draw down aquifers to nothing, pollute land and ocean to the point that they can’t recover, destroy coral reefs, and poison mountain streams in mining regions, and if we do all that, it could be millennia before the Earth recovers. In that case, the carrying capacity after the Pulse may be far lower than it was prior.

[@russellbyrnes7215]

It will depend on where you are. Thinking of everything in terms of the entire globe is a cultural habit of the west that doesn't make much sense. Some places are massively over their carrying capacity, others aren't.

[@d.Cog420]

I don’t mean to to be negative, the permaculture transition is a must IMO, but how do we transition 8-10 billion people on a planet that’s losing arable land to flood, drought, high winds etc, even if everyone wanted to? Lots of high hopes and good people but we shouldn’t we also be discussing what might happen if we haven’t left enough time? We need to know the range of possibilities to be prepared.

[@aryafeydakin]

Always wondered the caloric food eroi of 'permaculture'. Seems limited to a closed loop graduating and teaching business but in practice those low input high ouputs systems are staying in the world of hearsay and pipedreams. Permies boast they go 'beyond' agronimical science and laws, but in fact I'm pretty sure all they do is missing on it or obfuscate it. For something to be remotely sustainable or even just viable you have to calculate it not just think it.

[@anabolicamaranth7140]

I harvested .08 bushel of black beans off .00123 acres; 65 bu per acre in S Ohio. No till, organic, no animals, no outside inputs. I didn’t measure my Indian corn yield but likely 100+ bu/acre based on ear size. The only outside input I need is the continuation of coal burning to keep the aerosol masking effect which prevents us from experiencing the full effect of climate change.

[@mischevious]

You also need the living oceans and forests if you’d like to keep breathing. The forests are already in distress or collapse and the oceans are dying. And the insects, no growing food without the pollinators, critical food chain component too. And if you don’t want the whole atmosphere to be ionized, stripping away the stratospheric ozone layer, you also need to shut down all the nuclear power plants before they melt down from heatwave induced grid failures. I assume you have your bunker or cave in order for when it gets too hot for food to grow, and then of course too hot to step outside..

[@anabolicamaranth7140]

@@mischeviousI have an off grid homestead with lots of food stored but I’m not too interested in living on a dead planet.

[@mischevious]

@@anabolicamaranth7140 Exactly my friend. Fare well!

[@antonyjh1234]

You have got above the national average, with zero outside inputs? New land is it? If you or anybody is going to say they can maintain soil with just the waste that comes off it, while taking crops from it each year I'd call them a liar. poas

[@anabolicamaranth7140]

@@antonyjh1234 I have a compost toilet so actually the nutrient loop is closed. Good luck getting 8 billion homo saps to do that.

[@pacificatoris9307]

Thank you for the very informative content. But, unfortunately, this type of production is so antithetical to my personal anecdotal experience. I did some tomatoes, corns on about quarter acre of land. It was such a bone-breaking hard work, especially when one tries to stay far away from hydrocarbon as possible. Perhaps, there is some hidden cost or energy blindnss on some facets?

[@j.s.c.4355]

Speaking of culture wars, it is my firm belief that people who are against gun control or abortion won’t recycle. And if it weren’t for the assiciation of all those beliefs with liberal politics, those three positions should have no correlation.

[@jensanges]

I believe we can use permaculture and sun tubes inside a great city, to live and grow. Everyone loves a garden nearby. We need to leave the wilderness alone, truly alone. The new “Two State Solution”. Shocking, right?

[@sparksmacoy]

We are definitely very far into the brown trousers scenario

[@vmura]

farm land is too expensive so hard to achieve goals for new comers that think this way.

[@mujdawood7892]

Using bio char to regenerate soil is the best way.

[@TransitionWhatcom-hg6br]

Every situation is unique, but hugelcuture is often easier and more effective than biochar.

[@mellonglass]

More permaculture without the name, like soil, it has no definitive ‘it’ in our world of linear stages, “oh permaculture, yes I tried that” to, “permaculture the part of human time forgot”.

[@tomatao.]

A question I'd like to see asked to Permaculture activists is "how can we effectively advertise the solutions, address push back and reach tipping points of populations adopting these practices - so to have meaningful impact to the trajectory of civilisation?" Also, what to do when red-tape and bureaucracy impedes the ability of individuals to adopt permaculture in a substantial way - for example regulations on buildings that, for all intents and purposes, enforce usage of oil based materials to meet necessary r-values. For example, I'd need to make a cob wall 6 foot wide to have a SCOP value of 6... and building out of some natural materials like stone is just completely unaffordable for most - therefore we're near forced to use synthetic insulation

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

You listen to this podcast? There are no solutions concerning this particular civilization. At some point resource flows will diminish to the point it fails. That's it, nothing else will come of this living arrangement. Civilization will be re-imagined until it happens, then we'll find out. Or anyways, those who make it through the bottleneck. There is enough land to feed everyone on the planet now if most of us biointensively naturally grow our own food and carefully manage our use of natural systems. The numbers bear this out. That's assuming the larger natural systems remain relatively stable. Not going to happen unfortunately. And no, there will no longer be fakebook and such in any scenario no matter what comes out of this. Use discarded insulation.

[@tomatao.]

@@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner the insulation still needs to pass building regs and discards aren't always abundant or available. Would much rather just not need to have such narrow viewed regulations about what a house should be, there are other approaches to having houses that don't need as much heating without going through this super insulation approach... Would be better to be able to address the regulations As for the civilisation solutions. There is still reason to try and reach as large an audience as possible, not only to help more people prepare for the future but also to delay the inevitable consequences (slow them down ) and buy people more time to adapt

[@RickLarsonPermacultureDesigner]

Indeed, to find used material will become harder as this economy wanes. Nate & David are on the job!

[@antonyjh1234]

Since time began we are products of our environment and if anything it's the red tape that holds back what normally, well back 50 years ago, would have been called gardeners not activists. The lawn is the largest irrigated crop we have worldwide, fertilised a lot of the time and then mown with fossil fuel machine's, the point is we barely do things right and high enough interest rates might be all that's needed to see that come back. I remember when getting a water tank wasn't allowed by council then a couple of years of drought and they were giving subsidies..so policy can change I'm watching it now but why does building have anything to do with permaculture? Society moving towards a population of 25% over 65 so they will want smaller places close to services, 23 countries going to lose 50% of their populations due to demographics by 2100, all modern countries, the highest emitters, smaller places because less children, society is not going to be like the last 100 years in the next 100 and who really knows what life was like 100 years ago or how different was it? We should be careful of how much doom will come as absolutes, in our lifetime, there's a paper called : A. Levermann and R. Winkelmann: A simple equation for the melt elevation feedback of ice sheets. It gives equations for ice melt, at different degrees, it has 5c as a maximum and at the fastest rate at that degree, it will take 330 years for 10% of the ice to melt, 500 median and 730 at the slowest rate, 100% is 2049 years, so we aren't all going to lose our lives by sudden floods. We know Africa has 7 of the 11% of the world that is arable, largely untapped and they are getting money from China that the IMF or World Bank would never do so starvation and resource flow may not happen in our lifetimes. 5c will see season changes in growing areas, winter might be spring, it will mean rain in the Sahara and more Palm oil...If we had our time again we would have palm oil over any other based purely off land area...so many things are going to change but there are lag times and talking about end times of any temperature without taking this into account has issues, I can throw ice cubes into a fire and they still stay ice cubes for a while.. At the moment the world consumes 2985 calories per capita, enough for everybody to gain weight, but we have record amounts of obesity while people still starve to death, so do we actually have scarcity or is it a failing of system and an imagined scarcity? If the world consumes this much and we know how much wastage there is, imagine how much the system is failing then.

[@wvhaugen]

No mention of dieoff. A signal failure because: 1) overpopulation is dependent on fossil fuels and 2) availability is declining. Not even acknowledging dieoff drives down credibility.

[@sudd3660]

is this becoming a hopium channel now? we really need to vet the speakers.

[@anthonytroia1]

ur a dork

[@genxerfool9797]

Great guy and permaculture is awesome, but it's too late. We're toast

[@katemehlchadwick]

Thank you, Nate & David.