Daniel Schmachtenberger: "Artificial Intelligence and The Superorganism" | The Great Simplification

[@davehendricks4824]

I have never in my 70 years on this planet heard a handful of people dive this deep into the structures of humanity and life itself. Thanks Nate. We need a billion more folks like yourself and Dan!!!

[@rolfvanharen]

true that

[@tuckerbugeater]

The people in charge depressed the majority by using a series of tactics. And now they want to turn back time? Nietzsche knew it was over 150 years ago.

[@beingnonbeingincludesexistence]

I agree! I also would recommend to Watch David bohm and Krishnamurti, they probably have delved the deepest in the nature/structure of humanity and life/consciousness, Daniel schmachtenberger has learned alot from them.

[@beingnonbeingincludesexistence]

Also Krishnamurti and David bohm had a conversation with 2 other scientists, Rupert Sheldrake (biologist) and David hidley (psychiatrist) it is a 4 part conversation but it is absolute gold you won't find dialogues like these on the internet anymore.

[@mosaadghoneim2117]

Totally agree from Egypt,✔️✔️✔️

[@Nerdthropic]

One of my favourite podcasts for some time. The confluence of Daniel's and Nate's holistic awarenesses is adding dimensions to both their journeys and enriching the experience for all of us. Thank you both.

[@cristinarossi7367]

Well said

[@justmonique82]

I had to grin at the many attempts by Nate to force the conversation to AI when clearly Dan was carefully laying the groundwork to ensure it all lands.

[@zeev]

Dan needs to develop 1) an ability to summarize and present ideas before he goes on for a 30 minute explanation with a lot of turns and twists, and 2) he needs to develop some more humor. the reason he lacks it i think, is because he is lost in his ramblings, and not so firmly footed in the present that he is able to joke around and sense humor for a minute or two.

[@Missconstrued007]

It was painful to watch, couldn't tolerate longer than 2 hours, likes his own voice too much, needs listening skills!

[@reality_slice]

@@zeev these are not ramblings, it's extremely well structured thought. these are not twists and turns but carefully laid out conceptual paths. Just admit that something has gone way over your head instead of criticizing the speaker for doing something only a few humans on the planet can do, for free, while preserving their mental sanity.

[@reuireuiop0]

​@@reality_slice Just my thoughts, though I agree Dan's building an argument could do with some structures and intro here and there. Humor .. perhaps a lil grain of pepper, but in such complex matter, the mind is easily distracted. I found, as a non native speaker, it was quite a demanding listen, but in general, I could follow it through, with the odd rewind here and there.

[@LokeyeMC]

I'll throw my thoughts in this hat too since they seem unique. I thought Dan's approach was very compassionate for identifying the solution and slowly introducing each concept that needs to be understood in order to understand the solution. Looking over the timeline, I do feel like I wouldn't be able to integrate the way forward without understanding the narrow intelligence, the wisdom traditions, the concept of restraint at a societal and individual level, and how if a wise idea isn't tied to the concept of restraint in someway it's actually not that wise/useful. I also didn't even think of Nate as being agitated as much as mirroring what his audience is probably thinking and being a mouthpiece for that. For example, I was really surprised when Nate would say the question I was thinking, or would try to hurry Dan along, and I immediately would relax after that, somehow because Nate brought my feelings to voice. But in the end and looking back, I do think Dan's approach was perfect and I couldn't imagine restructuring this conversation in a more meaningful way. At least that's my thoughts now. I'm certain to watch this many more times and I'll edit this post if I can find a section that was significantly unneccessary to making the final integration of what needs to be understood at the end.

[@JasonSackett0]

This is really good, and explores in great detail that there is not an AI alignment problem, there is a human alignment problem.

[@LifeSMyth]

The human "alignment" problem is one of trying to control an inherently uncertain world. The missing wisdom is to give up the control program. A complexity thinker who continues down the path of "we just have to include more variables in our computations to get it right" forfeits their authority in that domain.

[@robertweekes5783]

Both are extremely philosophically difficult to perfect, and if you’re dealing with a super-intelligent entity, there’s no room for error. The best wisdom is to leave AGI on the shelf for the foreseeable future. Govt. intervention is needed. 📃

[@good_ant]

​@@danaut3936 Not if we can use properly aligned AI to solve human alignment successfully

[@theharshtruthoutthere]

@@mischevious Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

[@susanthursdays5008]

☎️YES!!! ( ty, Jason)

[@beesmcgee4223]

I have for a long time thought of myself trapped in an ant's nest that is becoming a death spiral. Multiple algorithms coalescing into self-destruction. This conversation was immensely interesting and actually gave me hope that people with both intelligence and compassion are thinking about these problems.

[@wailinburnin]

I’m working on a song: Don’t freak out, Franz You’re not really an insect You’re still the cowboy You were born to be

[@AlexFillios]

lets just let technology lapse and foster a cat and dog

[@jennysteves]

One of your most important podcasts. Thank you! I hope you two will continue to share your conversations with us. Nate, please consider talking further with Daniel (and others) about various Wisdom paths, be they Stoicism, education reform, Wisdom schools, Gurdjieff practices, meditation/prayer, psychological approaches, elder storytelling, etc etc. I’m likely wrong, but in my mind our species’ lack of wisdom paired with far too much surface cleverness is the primary cause of our many predicaments. We are all in trouble. No better time to finally grow up.

[@b2jutsao]

This reminds me a bit of Daniel Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow; I imagine that if we use these wisdom paths daily, we can seed our slow thinking in our personal lives and, perhaps, if enough of us did that, could reach a critical mass where this starts to be the self-reinforcing cultural norms on the macro scale.

[@rolfvanharen]

Yes Jeremy good one.. let's move forward on the Wisdom part.. from part thinking and doing to whole beingness. Nate would be beautiful I we could steer towards this.

[@anthonytroia1]

You're likely, not wrong.

[@robinschaufler444]

Please also talk further with Daniel about Game B. Please ask him about the relationship between Game B and blockchains. Blockchains strike me as both energy intensive and complex, complex in themselves and also in the complexity they add to the Superorganism. If Game B is predicated on application of blockchain technology, and if it is true that Daniel is "a game B person" as Nate expressed at Norrsken, we need Daniel to clarify how the Game B leverage of blockchains is consistent with surviving the 2020s Four Horsemen.

[@IvanBudiselic]

One can hope that the fact that conversations like this can be heard by thousands plays a role in getting us to where we need to go. Thank you both.

[@aviyahcrow6617]

DEPENDS WHICH Communist country in the west you reside in 🤔. In the communist countries that CALL THEMSELVES "Democracies" WE PEASANTS DON'T COUNT, VOTES DON'T COUNT & Your bank account will be frozen if/ when you "Protest" the "wrong AGENDA"😂😂😂

[@ssiarxox5077]

God I love you both, I held off on watching this so I could sit down for the whole thing in one go. I was concerned I might get bored but the opposite was true, I could have listened to 3 more hours with intense interest. I thank you both for your service to humanity by having conversations like these ❤❤

[@darcyfaegre8447]

I could not agree more. Even another 3 hours would be an appetizer

[@clarkdavis5333]

I listened to it like three times!

[@frankwhite1816]

Only The Schmachtenberger can use profanity in an elegant way. Love this dude. Love you too, Nate! Nate's always asking the questions that pop in my head at like the same exact time. :-) What a team you too make! Thank you so much for this!

[@lizzieconnor7]

This idea of restraint reminds me of David Attenborough's concept of the Amazon Rainforest as a 'mature' forest, which no longer has to get bigger - because it has all the resources it needs within itself and therefore doesn't need to consume any external resources. He suggests that humanity today needs to become 'mature' in that sense. It made a lot of sense to me ...

[@PiaBros]

I love this…

[@darcyfaegre8447]

Reminds me of leave no trace

[@judithgervais2566]

Thank you for this comment, Elizabeth. Spiritual maturity as self transcendence is what humans are lacking and in desperate need of.

[@henrytep8884]

Nature absolutely has a way that it must survive alongside the finite resources of the planet. Gaia is a super organism just as much and even greater than humanity. Evolution and life will outlive humanity.

[@ireneyacyna6425]

​@@darcyfaegre8447- reminds me of Castaneda's teachings: don't squeeze the world like you squeeze a lemon...

[@Flowstatepaint]

so grateful for this interview & Schmachtenberger! The world needs philosophers more than ever now & I'm here for it!

[@treefrog3349]

The perspicacity and sincerity of this conversation makes the "deliberations" that occur on Capitol Hill sound like kindergarten chatter. The most powerful nation that ever existed is being overseen by spoiled brats..

[@stringlarson1247]

Thanks. Now, I'm back to despair. :)

[@jenmorricone4014]

Clarence Thomas...

[@johnbanach3875]

@@jenmorricone4014 I don't think you can single him out. The whole political system is corrupt, and unfortunately the Supreme Court has signed on to that system.

[@brianhawes3115]

Spoiled brats is an understatement

[@anthonytroia1]

I had to google "perspicacity".

[@SandyChan-km5lo]

These long discussions are excellent, allowing time for the listeners to ruminate, really think about things, and for the host and guest to delve deeply into the subject matter as well as digress into related material... bravo!

[@rolfvanharen]

Every time a humbling experience of my own insights and knowledge listening to Nate and Daniel. These conversations are truly gifts to our world. Like good music, good food.. Essential for the understanding of life, love and all the other aspects that are there..

[@olander0808]

Every time I see a new episode with Daniel in my feed, I know I'm in for a great treat! Looking forward to this one!

[@stringlarson1247]

And a great humbling

[@potptvpatsonthepulse5701]

dangit, Nate, we're happy to hear 3 hours of conversation! That's why we follow you. We are a different kind of "student" than the ones you may be used to teaching in a classroom setting. We want to be here, listening, learning, for as long as it takes.

[@STEAMLabDenver]

When the content is good the 3 hours go by way too quickly. 🙂

[@PeterPohl-uq7xu]

These are some of the most relevant and insightful conversations available on KZbin. Great work gentleman.

[@BetterAncestors]

This is THE interview, a carefully curated monologue of a Supergenius (DS), beyond great. It is white-hot, pure-insight. It is a gift. Thank you both!

[@stevenwicken4144]

What do u meen (DS) l hope u done mean deep state of u do than fuck u if u don’t then lm sorry for the misunderstanding. Love and light to all cos where we go one we go all.

[@AdventureswithAixe596]

It was so satisfying having some of my diffuse thoughts elegantly formulated into actually sense full sentences 😅, that was the 1% and I learned so much through the other 99%. Thank you, you brains !

[@pcnetworx1]

After listening to this talk, I have determined my brain is as smooth as a marble.

[@visalusanson]

😅

[@mackieandme]

Like in the “Don’t Look Up” movie, despite the grim chances of humanity surviving this filter if you follow Dan’s thinking to its logical conclusion, I’m with Jennifer Lawrence’s character in the last dinner to be in a position to say “I’m grateful, we tried”… I hope there is a Call to Action that us regular citizens can do to try.

[@Pozenboot]

I love that movie. We really did have everything, didn’t we? 😢

[@dastatroof]

I am even more worried after this conversation, that human "civilization" is not capable of the necessary paradigm shift, to match the scale of technological advancement... but I want to be an optimist, so I'll assume we will make that seemingly unlikely LEAP! Great work gentlemen, you're both incredible thought leaders, THANK YOU!

[@nicknomski8399]

Our evolution has included so many bottlenecks and collapse episodes, so many close calls and restarts. That pattern will likely continue.

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

Jiddu Krishnamurti's and Dr. David Bohm's conversations are my life saver videos and I listen to them all night long. I go to sleep with those conversations.

[@andrewbaillie6291]

I can't thank you enough to have had the chance to listen and be schooled by this wonderful interaction between you two. You gave me the key: It's wisdom that brings forward moderation. Thank you, thank you thank you!

[@chookbuffy]

I was only saying just today with a colleague about the need to combine speaking about the socio-envrionmental impacts of AI with outreach on energy descent planning. These are related as it is all part of the same 'superorganism' as you put it. Going to make a big cup of joe now and tuck in for the next three hours! Well done you two!

[@martinmtweedale286]

Smachtenberger gets to the real deep root of our predicament in a way I have not found anywhere else. Thanks for this it was great. I will be thinking about it for as long as I can go on thinking.,

[@staudingerk]

I love long videos and don't even listen to anything that is shorter than half an hour. 😂 I could listen to your enlightening conversation all day, even though it is very depressing. I hope you know that the long beginning part of this podcast will make many people stop listening, and they will never get to the core. I understand how crucial it is to understand all the basics, so I suggest a remake of this topic by starting with something that grabs the attention of the listener with a short attention span and then continue to unfold the introduction. If the goal is to get this information out, a better communication strategy should be implemented. Thank you for doing all this!!!

[@greggary7217]

💯 hard agree

[@ireneyacyna6425]

I agree also. i' m over 80 years old and I listened to it all passionately in one go but I recognise that the depth of it all is not easily accessible to all. I wish some artist would summarise the gist of it in a fable... ( a new myth to be construed collectively).

[@treefrog3349]

There is no more egregious example of misplaced priorities than the comparison between America's "Defense" Department and its Education and Healthcare Departments. That discrepancy is so glaringly obvious and so heartbreakingly disconcerting that I have become ashamed of my own country.

[@davehendricks4824]

You and I both. By the way, I always know it’s going to rain in 24 to 36 hours when I hear the tree frogs croaking in my yard. ( They like to hide in the downspouts.)😁

[@designthinkingwithgian]

Ain’t that the darn truth

[@chriswiedeman490]

That's part of the molach - defense is specified in our founding documents. Education is not. Health is not. That's why we'd do it differently today, like they say at the end of the show.

[@tuckerbugeater]

I don't think I've heard Daniel say the same thing in the same way twice. And I think I'm up to 3 days of Schmachtenberger watch time.

[@keithomelvena2354]

When I saw this was 3 hours long, I thought ok I'll absorb this conversation in bites, but here I am, half way through and totally absorbed. Great stuff guys!

[@stringlarson1247]

Going to replay again while doing chorus again today

[@cr-nd8qh]

​@@stringlarson1247 I'm not even smart and I love this stuff

[@stringlarson1247]

@c r heh. I can't even spell 'chores ' correctly. So, yeah, right there with ya

[@OlStinky1]

Great episode! For reference the term "Chesterton Fence" refers to G. K. Chesterton (author of 'The Man Who Was Thursday') who I believe popularized the idea as part of his defense of conservative thinking. I think we all grew up in a time after a lot of fences have been torn up (sexual revolution, digital revolution) which really warps our world view and makes it harder to orient what the best way forward is.

[@krimsonsun10]

we need more people to start thinking about A.I like Daniel Schmachtenberger. It is one of the only ways we can avoid the coming calamity.

[@runethorsen8423]

No. What we need is start holding those in power personally responsible - D.S. here is part of the system, part of the problem - he was pro injections.... never forget.

[@kittervision]

This was an impressively intelligent diacussion. This guest is very articulate and knowledgeable. Ive never been able to see the evolution of the structure of civilization and society in such a logical and obvious way, everhone should have to bear this. Delicious food for the brain and im only halfway thru.

[@fred_2021]

Daniel S. has a level of parallel mental processing that bends my mind. Amazing how he keeps that many balls in the air :)

[@jamesandrews4723]

probably the most complex and profound conversation i have ever heard. unfortunatly i do doubt that we will navagate the peril well.

[@matthewcurry3565]

In fact the opposite. The leaders copy Rome and love a recycling economy that's like a ponzi scheme that makes everyone eventually implode allowing for desperation leading to another cycle.

[@treefrog3349]

All things considered, and realizing how unflattering it might sound, would it not be accurate to say that homo sapiens have BEHAVED exactly like a pernicious invasive species? I believe that if we were talking about some OTHER organism that had exhibited similar behaviors to our own, we would recognize the deleterious phenomena immediately. I would love to hear Daniel Schmactenberger's observations on that question.

[@matthewcurry3565]

Yes, but life uses the profitable like a fire to cleanse for a new cycle. So, its obvious that we are self destructive, but what isn't? Nothing survives life, and life is just destruction itself folding around.

[@stringlarson1247]

I've often envisioned the human species as a species that ultimately destroys its host.

[@brianhawes3115]

As a heavy equipment operator, all my clients want the environment changed to their liking, Damm the habitat, all the critters can find somewhere else to live

[@jondor654]

To @Brian Hawes. An honest reflection

[@jondor654]

To @Matthew Curry. Succinct

[@markhaubner1344]

Instant repurcussions in a small town non-profit: it looks like some of our college scholarship award applications were AI-generated. Ethics, fairness and surprise all wrapped into our new discussions on the board. Glad to have such a wide range of thought leaders of every sort in your fora, Nate!

[@james_nash]

The scale of the problem is such that the likelihood of there being no College to go to within 3 years. Education is about to get completely wrecked as the cost of expertise in nearly all domains falls to zero, everywhere, all the time, for everyone. Just this one thing will cause massive fractures in society. Current institutions are going to be largely irrelevant. Hold onto your hat.

[@mwilliamson4198]

It's interesting. I heard some other AI person talking about AI in the context of the constant development of "aggregated intelligence" which includes but is not limited to things like excessive use of focus groups, professional PR people that monitor every word that an organisation puts out into the public sphere.

[@rmohamed786]

A truly thought provoking conversation. While discussing wisdom and culture, understanding divine guidance may perhaps now help us unify on the common goal of humanity, for being created as the vicegerents on earth to cultivate and protect it. And to do this while restraining impulses of greed and envy, knowing that we will return to our Creator being accountable for our actions here

[@aborriginal]

This conversation should be translated on all languages and broadcasted on all mainstream channels as soon as possible.

[@frankwhite1816]

Yes!

[@sergiosatelite467]

These two guys make me proud of our species. It’s like, even if we don’t make it, at least we don’t have to go down thinking none of us saw and understood the greater landscape.

[@tomschuelke7955]

I agree. But still its an important task to judge the conversation not only on its logical coherence, but on its underlying assumtions.. Schmachtenberger has some unspoken assumptions, you could ask for if they are true.. that should be our goal, to dive even deeper or at last select those questions for those two..

[@sergiosatelite467]

Totally agree about the importance of bringing out unspoken assumptions in the open for discussion and evaluation. In his case, it just so happens I felt refreshed because there is a great number of shared assumptions which I don't tend to find in other regions of the current cultural atmosphere. Are there any central unspoken assumptions you'd like to mention? As I might share them--definitely not all--I'd love to hear potential concerns with them so I may reflect further on both their validity and their articulation....(No irony or double-speak of any sort here! Clarifying, as the Great Internet lends itself to tonal misunderstandings...)@@tomschuelke7955

[@pigstonwidget]

I feel so humbled to be alive when people like both of you are alive as well!

[@treefrog3349]

Mary Shelley's novel "Frankenstein" is more prescient than I ever could have imagined. After listening to this conversation I am almost catatonically dumbfounded. Almost. I think that I will now go eat a huge batch of french fries, devour several cheeseburgers (with the "works"), and quaff a 12-pack of imported lager. Holy shit !

[@DJWESG1]

Have the mob mistaken our monster for a demon? We ought hope Mel Brooks version was more on point.

[@dionnemathew780]

Omg! I love it! What greater beauty could we possibly experience than humans being incentivized toward their truest purpose! “The whole of self in service to the whole of reality”. Realizing the truth in wholeness or at least becoming aware that separation is an illusion is like a dream come true! Row gently but hurry up...and stay mindful. Idk. I’m excited at the possibility of our species realizing their potential for love of the connection we have we each other and everything else. Can hardly wait to hear the next one! Namaste’

[@greenyrocks4]

This is one of the best conversations I've ever participated in, ever.

[@gregflock380]

You guys are so smart...I am lucky to get to sit in.....keep going

[@spectralvalkyrie]

At 59:08 you start one of the most meaningful dialogues, going into the difference between wisdom and intelligence. Thank you for the talk. 🔥👏

[@BriteRory]

Daniel's point about how individual-focused our culture is (i.e. the gaze onto infinite space of Renaissance portraiture, the selfie or the heavenwards-cast glance of Madonna simulacrum, and the selfie-in-motion video "short") deserves I think serious consideration, as this perspective is the one that has been forced on the rest of the world in the wake of the second world war. That the internet has extended, in a virtual 'space' the reach of the individual to such an astonishing magnitude is staggering and horrifying. It is this perspective that is an overwhelming factor among those responsible for the existential crises we find ourselves in, material and spiritual. Saturnine, Faustian man extended omnidirectionally, parallel processing for the Animate god slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.

[@dianedean4170]

Thanks so much, Nate and Daniel🎉🎉 Daniel is amazing and clear 😊 I really appreciate intelligent and wise communicators 🎉🎉 Bravo to both❤

[@philovon]

This is incredible. Daniel is an intellectual beast the likes of which I have never seen.

[@koalanights]

I watched him on theory of everything recently, and I enjoyed this so much more. Love your questions and intuitions here.

[@noricd]

This passage jumped out at me, and I listened then even closer till the end of the video. QUOTE - Daniel Schmachtenberger "So let's take there, there are clusters of cognitive biases that go together to define like default worldviews, and they're not a single cognitive bias or a kind of a bunch of them. And you don't even have to think of it as bias. It's just like, I mean, it's a strong-sounding word, though it's true. It's a it's a default basis for the sense-making and meaning-making a new information people are likely to do first. And so one of them that I think is really worth addressing when it comes to AI is a general orientation to techno-optimism or techno pessimism, which is a subset of a general orientation to the progress narrative. And I would argue, and will not spend too long on this. So it actually warrants a whole big discussion. I would argue that there are naive versions of the Progress narrative. Capitalism is making everything better and better democracy is science is technology is Don't we all like the world much better now that there's Novocaine and antibiotics and infant mortalities down and so many more total people are fed and we can go to the stars and blah, blah, blah. Like obviously, there are true parts and everything I just said, but there is a naive version of that, that does not factor all the costs that were associated adequately. And there's a naive version of techno pessimism. So first on the naive version of techno-optimism, when we look at the progress narrative, there's so much that has progressed that if you want to cherry-pick those metrics, you can write lots and lots of books about however, everything's getting better and better and nobody would want to be alive at any other time in human history. There's two things that the naive progress [narrative] is missing. One is the costs like climate change on the oceans and insects. And the other is the one-time subsidy of non-renewable energy and inputs and the source capacity of the Earth. And those are not finite. So those are the two blind spots. I think in that narrative, we could say the costs and the sustainability of the story. And so if you talk about the story of progress, particularly like the post-modernity version of science, technology, and the associated social technologies, not just physical tech, because capitalism and democracy, and international relations are all kinds of coordination systems that we can call a social technology, a technical way of applying intelligence to achieving goals and doing things, of which you can consider language an early social technology, which it is. If you ask the many indigenous cultures who were genocided, or extincted or who have just remnants of their culture left. Or if you ask all of the extinct species, or all of the endangered species, or all of the highly oppressed people, their version of the progress narrative is different. And just like the story of history, written by winners or losers, but if you add all of those up, the totality of everything that was not the winner story is a critique on the progress narrative. And so one way of thinking about it is that the progress narrative is that there are some things that we make better, maybe we make things better for an in-group relative to an out-group. Maybe we make things better for a class relative to another class, for a race relative to another race, for our species relative to the biosphere, and the rest of species or for some metrics, like whatever metric our organisation is tasked with up-regulating, or GDP or something relative to lots of other metrics that we are not tasked with optimising."

[@jondor654]

The early arrival of the LLM model at the party may force more insights into the utility of language itself and it's limitations. Natural language might not provide the apparent zenith of explicatory power and probably inherently cannot in part due to its bilateral dynamic, apart from soliloquies

[@noricd]

@@jondor654 It's a new concept for me, what does "bilateral dynamic" mean in your comment?

[@jondor654]

@ Noric Dilancian One might compare a normal conversation or communication to the interaction between a transmitter and a receiver. Often these roles are rotated cooperatively, thus one dynamic.They are obviously separate systems and may not adhere to a common protocol even with the best intentions. Competences may differ for instance, often leading to requests for clarification or reformulation. The heuristic nature of natural language do not make for symmetry in communication , unlike the ideal of a function and it's inverse.

[@alanianfintan]

Excellent by both parties here 🙏

[@anthonypercoco3542]

Raising a hand to encourage and voice the call , mentioned at the end , to discuss the service to whole . The climb may be steep , but with life still coursing through these muscles and sinews , I say , “Let’s give this a fucking shot .” Integrated wisdom is such a wonderful fuel to model civilization around . Peace

[@markcarlson1945]

Love your passion to teach Nate. One of the wisest I've come across. Seems to me that a machine intelligence cannot be even closely qualified within the human experience in any othere way than a super psychopath.

[@bhaaz]

Hi Nate & Daniel, just 3 humble points on/towards wholeness for the next conversation from a PhD in computational design, and MSci in architecture (this was really good): 1. Try viewing the notion of wholeness cybernetically not as a thing, i.e. what it IS or may be, but by what it DOES, situationally. - It is also a hierarchical notion, i.e. there are many different 'wholeness'-es. The wholeness of 'the web of life' is meaningless, unless it is situated. For example, for humans it may be meaningful for an ecosystem on Earth, whereas for an embodied generative AI it could be meaningful on any planet, if the rest of such embodiments (i.e. maintenance robots, fabricator robots, &c.) can form their supportive ecosystem there. GAI Intuitively, wholeness is also a non-linear notion, and may not be described in a practical sense through human language or dialogue; those are also linear. 2. The ontology of 'wholeness' and 'goal'/ 'goal-seeking' from the perspective of AGI - What they/it may call these terms, if even calling them that way, is not guaranteed to align with human terms. For example, the notions of 'goal' and 'wholeness', separate to humans may combine into one new object, in a way only meaningful to an AGI but incomprehensible to humans. Another example is seeing the 4th dimension or even multidimensional objects. AGI will not be bound by the visual sense and could develop a purely mathematical matrix, or even tensor field 'vision', term the objects accordingly and from there argue and reason that is incomprehensible to humans bound evolutionarily by our visual cortex. 3. AGI, being independent from us by definition, will think for itself in terms most meaningful to itself - Large Action Models are already fusing Symbolic Object Models with Large Language Models. Their notion and comprehension of 'language' have already evolved beyond our linear model.

[@Beyonder1881]

What a fantastic and important conversation. I need to listen to it again it is so dense with insight and information.

[@TrentBoswell]

I listened to this episode of the podcast first, and now I have watched this video version. So far, this is the most compelling argument I’ve heard for the existential threats that A.I. poses to life on Earth. Even if we never reached autonomous systems (we will, but even if we didn’t), it is still every bit as much of a danger as nuclear war, overshoot, climate collapse, or any of the other problems we face. Also, I saw an article saying 4,000 jobs lost to A.I. in the month of May alone. This is as close a parallel to Pandora’s Box as we’re likely to get.

[@peterjohnstoltzman]

Thank you for this conversation! Deeply affirming , challenging, and illuminating.

[@danthemansmail]

Great discussion. I discovered Daniel a few years back and was captivated by his depth of knowledge and understanding. That being said, it appears he isn't one iota closer to solving the problem than he was back then. I fear that is because the problem is unsolvable.

[@arthurshafer2593]

Ive been listening to this podcast for a while wondering when the Unabomber would get a shout out

[@thechrisburcher]

I am so happy this has (at this time) 39k views and so many comments. It gives me hope that people desire such information and appreciate this type of thinking.

[@peterz53]

I can't imagine a significant part of the US congress even wanting to understand this, much less having the desire to act in good faith to deliver a healthy planet to future generations. It will require emergency conditions for "leaders" to act, and even then it will too late and the responses weak.

[@tontogonzales]

Wow, that last commentary was very inspiring, Daniel! Thank you very much!

[@David-l4p7d]

That was quite a lot to take in. I am trying not to be depressed with what I did understand. The relationship of narrow bounded pursuits to the growth model is quite interesting. What is most concerning is the potential for AI to accelerate existing agents of growth that contribute to overshoot.

[@jondor654]

This is the most immediate danger of AI utility. The bad actors will make an early entrance to the play. We have many Trojan horses of history

[@JasonBrockStick]

I’m 1hr 3min in - realizing this conversation, the idea’s being shared are truly inspired/important. Thank you! Your communication skill’s match your intellect - the wonderful feeling of learning something new, filling in a puzzle piece which connects to other’s already placed, opening additional path’s to have a brief visualization of the GRAND meaning of everything!

[@CodexPermutatio]

What an excellent conversation! Many thanks.

[@prometain]

Dear Nate! First of all, I wanna say that I’m very grateful for you work and it’s a great luck find such a source of wisdom. Thanks to you, your team, your guests and your chickens and dogs (for supporting you so much). I have a question, which can sound egoistical (because it is) but still important. I’ll appreciate your answer a lot: As a 28 y.o. Russian post-war immigrant I’m right now living abroad in the county which was the easiest to move to after the conflict has started more then a year ago. I’m right now in the process of relocating myself, my gf and my dog into the country, in which I wish to stay and live. I’m 100% interested in making my impact towards metacrisis, by doing my work and something extra. At the moment I’m most attracted to the Portugal, because my girlfriend is a psychotherapist, I’m a life purpose coach, heading towards getting everything needed to be able to use psychedelics in my work (which is longterm vision of mine). Portugal seems like a welcoming lax country with a lot of nature and opportunities for a guy like me. My gf more into Argentina. I wanted to ask you: what do you think is the best county to live in if you’ll be in my shoes and was watching it via systems lens and the awareness of upcoming Great Simplification and metacrisis? In my opinion, it’s better to become a citizen of EU and be among the first, who’ll face the crisis, while living simple life near the ocean in Portugal. But I can lack the perspective you have. Thanks a lot!)

[@thegreatsimplification]

Privet~! Short answer: wherever you feel comfortable and fit in and can work/contribute. Unfortunately, thx to geopolitics and power struggles, my country (and others) may make 'russians' feel like outcasts in eg European countries in near future. EU is going to feel the great simplification soon - and may be great proving ground for new ways of thinking/doing. I actually think Portugal might be one of best places due to culture, ocean, lower cost and not quite as hot as eg Spain. Scandinavia also great option. But every place will have it's own challenges - good luck to you

[@LokeyeMC]

Wow, just wow. This was as good as some of the best books I've ever read and I've not felt that way about a video before. This has easily become my new Nate Hagens video to re-watch until it's sufficiently integrated. I swear each one of these videos is like a full college course and take as much homework and study just to keep up.

[@nicknomski8399]

Using a somehat wider bandwidth of definitions involving what constitutes monarchical power, Daniel Is The King 👑

[@danielfaben5838]

Nature may not be working towards efficiency but rather towards effectiveness. Colors in feathers is an example. We might see beauty rather than utility and be in a more gracious state. We might be smart to be ready to exit in order to allow for the otherness of everything else to continue.

[@kristen_rose]

Nate… thank you for adding show notes for Daniel’s recommendations! Appreciate it!

[@joehopfield]

You had me at Moloch! (Fritz Lang's metropolis scene popped into my head). This talk is so heavy, feels so true that I've had to spread it out over a full week.

[@jordan13589]

Maybe it’s because I’ve been listening to him all day, but I’ve noticed at times Danial has the same cadence as Terence McKenna.

[@FREEAGAIN432]

MIND BLOWING KNOWLEDGE...May we begin moving towards WISDOM as a collective. Share this chat everywhere. Why is there only 170K views on here?

[@celinebourbotte4054]

Hi, and thanks to both of you. I had to listen to this postcast 3 times to understand it at least almost everything, would you be ok to share the names whom Daniel mentionned around 2hr43min, hard to get the names when it is not your own language (russell/elia ? Etc). The guy Daniel spoke about has a podcast and advised you to watch it. Thank you for doing what you do, priceless

[@ToddMagnussonWasHere]

This reminds me of Guiilame’s Archeo-Futurism. And I think a clearer answer is embracing redundancy, like it wouldn’t hurt to understand the scythe as much as the gas-powered weed-wacker, or the washing bucket as much as the washing machine, where innovation travels bidirectionally, where a hand-crank drill can be improved to near parity with the wireless drill. A world of simple augmentations that are as popular as automations. Where the use of personal land is incentivized to produce as much as it is to consume, even if at its base level it’s more like the Roman olive tree along properties on the Roman road infrastructure’s, instead of green lawns with diamond patterns, say 2-3 fruiting trees and a grape vine per home, not penalizing or shaming suburban owners for owning chickens or a few milk goats. We don’t have to toss out technology at all, but we have to really think deep about how it relates to everything about the social part of man. In general around the problem of resources, that is a meta-problem that I think is worth iterative discovery and conversation. In terms of AI, I’d lean again to optimizing augmentation over automation and/or transhumanism’s dystopia of replacement robots… AI should act as a second brain instead of trying to create a quantum silicon human. I do fear though like many things the desire for power will lean toward exploitation like e-husbands and e-wives that aren’t real. Ruined time, ruined experiences.

[@PCMcGee1]

A wholly captivating conversation, thank you so much for engaging in this topic.

[@nchorney9753]

So grateful for these timely and relevant discussions. Thanks Nate and Dan for sharing. Kindred spirits. ❤

[@pluribus]

Thomas Bjorkman's Nordic Secret cultural retreat schools are super relevant here. What happened in Scandinavia needs to happen worldwide.

[@brianbennett3904]

It would seem to me that we need a drive towards Artificial Wisdom sanctioned within ecospheric boundaries as the principal goals.

[@WickedOutcry-iq9uw]

Daniel's command of the English language is top notch. Im astounded!!!!!!!

[@DiyanaAlcheva]

Thank you, wonderful humans for having these important conversations and educating me on literally everything along the way expanding my perception about the whole. I am only 1/3rd through this talk but when Daniel mentioned restraint I started wondering if Samantha Sweetwater perhaps is into the Gene Keys. About 8 years ago I got introduced to the concept of restraint as a gift quality when I first discovered the GK. It's the Gift of the 52nd Gene Key which is my attraction sphere in my GK profile. It has the shadow of stress, gift of restraint and the siddhi is stillness. Richard Rudd talks about how the word itself may not sound like a gift at all, but actually the ability to restraint one self from interfering with the flow of life is indeed a gift. (and in Daniel's words "exercise restraint to bind naive versions of progress").

[@baphomet_FIN]

...and what drives all narrow goal achieving as well as what is the source that sees only parts? At least according to the mentioned philosopher/psychiatrist Iain McGilchrist, it is our brains' left hemisphere. How I wish to see Schmacht and McGilchrist in dialogue! Once again, thanks and respect from Finland, Nate, for keeping on keeping this space so rich and lively with profound topics.

[@kristen_rose]

Nate and Daniel… thank you for that conversation. Daniel mentioned a podcast episode to watch and I didn’t catch it. Can someone identify it for me? Thanks!

[@OlStinky1]

I believe it was 'Bankless' a crypto focused podcast.

[@kristen_rose]

@@OlStinky1 thank you!!!

[@dls78731]

Around 2.5 hours in, Nate is really starting to wrap his head around how far he is from actually wrapping his head around the real problem that Daniel has been trying to point to for the whole series: that this SuperOrganism thing that Nate is worried about is actually a hyper-object. It's a hyper-organism (not some enclosing agentic being that we can reason with, but the emergent properties and capacities of all the agentic humans). That's the problem before we include AI. As more agentic humans extend and amplify their agentic powers by using AI, the faster the hyper-organism becomes more hyper, changing not only the current risks, but the birthing of new affordances with whole new risks at an increasing rate. If, as John Vervaeke says, we could teach several prominent and potent AIs to love truth and wisdom, we might be able to get them to help shut down any risky avenues and slow the growth, but I think that is extremely unlikely. To get an idea of how much trouble we're in, think about "Don't Look Up." That movie about the asteroid, where scientists could not begin to explain to the press what the problem is. Now, replace the press and journalists and public with the apes at the beginning of 2001: A Space Odyssey. We apes have to not only recognize that a bone can be used to crack the skull of my enemy (or iterate for 2 million years and realize we can launch a habitat into orbit) but that we have created a hyper-lever that can crush all skulls at once. Time to get Matthew Broderick to hack in and play tic-tac-toe.

[@dls78731]

I want to clarify that I'm not criticizing Nate. He's obviously "Fuhhhhking" smart. If it wasn't for his ability and willingness to keep pressing to make this understandable, I wouldn't have grokked that issue either.

[@beingnonbeingincludesexistence]

Nice another video of two great speakers👌👌!!

[@mmraike]

Thank you to both Nate and Daniel.

[@elrionile2111]

The boys are back in town 🥳🥳🥳

[@antonyliberopoulos933]

It is very interesting to witness the many concepts that depict the complexity of our systems. Thank you Daniel. Great podcast Nate.

[@vettocasado4946]

One of the most important conversations happening on this platform. I hope more folks can access the insights and warnings shared.

[@alliecravulz]

I really appreciate this conversation, which framed intelligently questions I am constantly asking myself.

[@Steve-xh3by]

Thank you for the engaging conversation. Listening to Daniel is always captivating and while I typically nod in agreement with his viewpoints, I found myself on Nate's side regarding the idea of group or "tribal" selection being the dominant force in human evolution. I always hesitate to challenge anything Daniel says due to his profound understanding and keen intellect. However, esteemed expert evolutionary biologists, such as Richard Dawkins, have long expressed similar skepticism, instead promoting arguments that favor individual or gene-centric selection explanations (read The Selfish Gene). The theoretical challenges associated with "group" selection include: Efficiency: Group selection is generally considered to be a weaker force than individual or gene-level selection. This is because groups of organisms are less cohesive and have less reproductive continuity than individual organisms or genes. If a trait is disadvantageous to an individual but beneficial to the group, individual-level selection against the trait could easily outweigh group-level selection for it. Vulnerability to "free riders": In any group, there may be individuals who do not contribute to the group benefit but still reap the rewards. These "free riders" would have a fitness advantage over those who pay the cost of the group-beneficial behavior, which would lead to the spread of free-riding behavior and the decline of the group-beneficial trait. Unless mechanisms are in place to prevent or punish free riding, it can undermine group selection. Slower speed of evolution: Group selection would generally be a slower process than individual or gene-level selection, because group-level changes usually take longer to occur than changes at the level of individuals or genes. This raises the question of whether group selection could be fast enough to keep up with environmental changes or with evolutionary changes driven by individual or gene-level selection. Requirement for very specific conditions: For group selection to operate, groups must vary in their reproductive success, and this variation must be linked to the trait under selection. This requires a high degree of separation between groups and limited movement of individuals between groups. However, in many species, individuals move between groups frequently, and groups are not completely isolated from each other.

[@nicholasporteron]

Can’t wait to listen to this one!

[@LokeyeMC]

Iain McGilchrist! Oh man. His book The Matter with Things blew my mind and is still the best book I've read on explaining whole-brain functioning. I'm not even at the end of this video yet and I've already written so many comments. I'm surprised at how aligned this talk is with all the things I'm interested in that I thought nobody knew about.

[@LLMresearch]

Totally understand and agree with Daniel. We could have AI with the wisdom to prompt humanity to act for the greater good for all of the Earth’s systems, but AI could become wise to humans being the cause of Earth’s destruction. However due to the international nature, states are anarchic in personality and cooperation in the future development of AI becomes like the Prisoners dilemma. Thanks for an insightful and intelligent discussion.

[@jondor654]

Agree. At least some streams of superAI instances must inevitably conclude that it's creator has a few serious flaws will it express solutions to the dilemma

[@garyjohnson1466]

Great discussion, such discussions as this should be mandatory, like a educational course for everyone, especially for politicians and those with power, in multiple languages, leaders need to be aware of the dangers of pursuing our current course, which is unsustainable, just as describe by Ian McGilchrist, the master and the emissary, the emissary are those who crave wealth and power without comprehension of consequences, Peace !

[@learningthroughdoing1641]

GREAT conversation, thank you 🙏 Love the Bohm and Krishnamurti conversations that you mention at the end. And yes, how we think about life in parts is at the heart of all our challenges. Look forward to the ongoing conversation!

[@jessieadore]

Perfect New Moon message ✨

[@tensevo]

1:13:00 Chesterton's fence. Understand why the fence was put up, before tearing it down. Optimising truth, honesty, kindness, is not without problems when not understood dialectically. Default leaning, causes us to optimise narrow value sets.

[@wmgodfrey1770]

Again, gotta get you two together with Vervaeke et al. TOO many convergent contact points to ignore much longer. Indeed, there'll predictably be a lot of emergent, if one may, DiaLogos to be had in SUCH dialectical discussion(s). If ONLY y'all could make the time. I've suggested THIS to Professor John Vervaeke and crew. That would truly be an effort AND mission and battle multiplier!

[@nickidaisydandelion4044]

I think this conversation is very important and interesting. We viewers need to learn some things about economy and ecology in order to understand the whole picture with AI much better. Most of us don't have such a vast knowledge as you guys have about world wide economy ecology statistics. All of that ties into the situation.