Will this Japanese Heat Pump revolutionize American HVAC? | Harvest & Sanco2 Heat Pump Series

[@jabbathespud]

One issue with the SANCO2 is that their tank is too large to fit in the space my old tank occupied (hard to fit a 24" tank in a 23" wide tank well). Another is that the controller uses ancient technology and can't integrate into a modern smart home. Lastly there is the cost. It was over four times the cost of the Stiebol-Eltron instant unit I eventually went with. I don't use much hot water (< $0.15 /day) so the additional cost was just too much. I like the idea though. What I don't understand is why manufacturers of split HVAC systems don't sell a unit to heat hot water.

[@firstbigbarney]

You forgot to tell us anything about the Sanco heat pump...

[@JohnLee-db9zt]

New? Sanco has been on the market in the US for years.

[@MichaelJ674]

I’m going to be building a house on the Oregon coast where the average winter design temperature is in the low forties (F) and it rarely drops below freezing. Also there is no need for air conditioning in the summer. So I intend to install a hydronic radiant floor heating system with an air to water heat pump that will also provide domestic hot water. Sounds like this Harvest/Sanco system would be an ideal system for me in terms of maximizing efficiency and minimizing GWP. However, the cost of electricity is relatively low and there is currently no tiered or demand-based pricing. Probably isn’t even close to being the least cost option, but there are other values at play here that are of equal or greater importance to me than first cost ($) or even lifecycle cost ($). In other words, this system could be a winner on the basis of a triple bottom line analysis. Please comment from your perspective. Thanks!

[@urchin11]

There are several other CO2 based air to water heat pumps on the market, look around before buying the Sanco, I've heard it's terrible to get support for.

[@MichaelJ674]

Thank you.

[@bspanger1]

@@urchin11 Primary support is provided by your local installer, and Eco2 Systems provides support to the installer community, as well as directly to homeowners in certain cases. Oregon is pretty well covered, with distributors that carry replacement parts in stock. Eco2 Systems has also revamped their support systems to reduce their response times, whether you contact them by email or via the contact form on their website. (Yes, I am affiliated with Eco2 Systems.)

[@newguy6935]

I might be interested but I'm curious if the air coming out of the vents is warmer than the air from typical heat pumps. And, is there a significant savings over the whole system.

[@bspanger1]

There aren't any vents. The Sanco2 pulls in air from the outside, extracts the heat from that air and transfers it to the water in the storage tank. The only "vent" is the exhaust side of the unit, which discharges air that is colder than the ambient air pulled into the unit, because it has had heat extracted from it. The Sanco2 will always produce water at either 145F or 150F (depending on the ambient temperature), no matter how cold it is outside. (Down to -25F).

[@marconantel7735]

Don’t they use co2 in commercial refrigeration?

[@t.d.5804]

yes, it replaced Ammonia

[@stevemcfarland4661]

I'm wondering what the capability is here. 15k btu heat pump I think. Seems like it would not be enough for heat and hot water. At least not here in CT

[@sullydee2237]

can you do some reviews of ng heaters and high efficiency furnace / and the mitsubishi unit that works with your ng furnace /what about led lights they put in you hvac systems do they work what is the efficiency of them////

[@markcollins457]

As an retired hvac tech the vast amount of American homes are extremely inefficient. I'm always following the next new thing but unfortunately the tax credits and personal home tax credits for efficiency are driven by squeezing another dollar out of people who can't afford high efficiency. Housing envelopes have to be upgraded before all the new technologies will really be effective.

[@TheHVACDopeShow]

Very true we always preach insulation windows/doors and weatherstripping... little things go a long way although windows and doors tend to be a big project

[@VikramBailur]

I doubt if this is going to be feasible till it can be packaged with an air to water chiller for HVAC, and available with a compatible indoor air handler that can used chilled or hot water in the same fan coil (appropriate water side mixing valves needed). Also the price is crazy - $15k just for the heating high side and low side equipment. Add HVAC with labor and you will be at $25k-30k for a small single family home. Oh and it also needs to work with a single thermostat. Those 30% tax credits will most likely get removed next year. Maybe Musk will come up with a tesla coil and package unit that does it all :=D

[@mikegrok]

I want a heat battery. It is 96f at night and 117f during the day. I want to run the heat pump all night and store 300 to 1000 gallons of chilled water.

[@100pyatt]

You could do that with an insulated agricultural tank

[@dus10dnd]

So, one thing that they could do to make this "somewhat" work as an air conditioner... and I actually see absolutely no reason it cannot work as an air conditioner... literally, if it works as a heating system... you literally just run it the other way... so it isn't the CO2, it is just that they store heat in the water rather than have a tank for cool water... Have an "outdoor" unit... inside. So, if you want to cool your indoor space, it is going to take the heat from inside to pump into the water tank for hot water purposes. For heating your indoor space, it just uses the outdoor unit.

[@bspanger1]

In warmer climates the outdoor unit can be installed inside to provide a cooling effect. Some restaurants have installed them in the kitchen to extract heat and cool the kitchen. As long as there is sufficient space for airflow (~800 Cu. Ft.). At 37dB noise isn't an issue.

[@dus10dnd]

@@bspanger1 I think alternatively, you simply use the "VRF Heat Recovery" model. This uses a branch controller to effectively take heat from head units that request cooling and reject the heat to head units that request heating. So, basically use the "boiler" side as a heat only head unit. Then, you can have heating/cooling head units elsewhere, perhaps one being a central air handler.

[@bspanger1]

@@dus10dnd I think that what you describe is the holy grail of energy efficient heating and cooling. A single system connected to heat exchangers in your mini split air handlers inside, a heat exchanger outside, water heater, refrigerator/freezer and wherever you need hot or cold, all connected to a central system that extracts heat from wherever it isn't needed, and transfers it to where it is. I don't know of any such system in existence (yet?)

[@dus10dnd]

@@bspanger1 VRF Heat Recovery is it. Hooking freezers/refrigerators... I haven't seen it yet, but I am experimenting with it.

[@mcneill64]

Use of term ‘battery’ delivers more confusion than I will tolerate in a world where actual electric batteries are equally or more important.

[@marcfruchtman9473]

Thanks for the video. While this does seem like a good product, the pricing needs to be competitive. This has NOTHING to do with a Tesla battery. it has nothing to do with ANY battery. The unique factor here is that it uses heat pump technology, which is more efficient than standard resistance coils. However, charging 2x to 3x the price sort of diminishes the appeal. It will take a while to break even, like more than 10 years just accounting for the cost of the unit itself... at average uses. Also, in the USA, we don't call the millions of 50 to 80 gallon hot water heaters already installed in households, "Batteries"... and this new product does not store chemical energy at all. Additionally they are wasting all the cold they create... by dumping it outside... they could add a refrigerator unit to get the benefit. Please stop calling a "hot water tank" a thermal battery... get over it. It is not a battery. Overall, the Price is too high tho.

[@CarlJohnson-b4d]

Though it’s not mentioned in the video, what the harvest system does is to decouple the timing of hot water generation from hot water use. It shifts the timing of the hot water generation to the daytime when outdoor temperatures are warmest (and where I live, when electricity is cheapest), then saves the water at 145-150F for use when needed (blended with a thermostatic valve), often in the evening or morning when the heat pump would not be as efficient due to colder temperatures, and (again, where I live) power would be more expensive. I’ve got 10 kW of solar on my roof, so heating up my water tank in the day, rather than when I use the water, would make a lot of sense. So I think it is fair to call this a thermal energy storage “battery”. The harvest system will turn the heat pump on during hot water use if demand exceeds the usable storage capacity, but that would not be typical if the storage tank is properly sized.

[@marcfruchtman9473]

@@CarlJohnson-b4d Well, I can see how performing the water heating during the day would improve efficiency. But storing hot water makes it no different than any other hot water storage tank. I suppose it is trendy to call it a battery, but a storage tank is a storage tank hehe. I just don't see the point of trying to fool people with Cool video clips of Tesla power wall and saying "battery" because those have zero to do with a hot water tank. This IS a cool technology and It has a lot of potential, but the they can't price it this high and expect people to want to buy, and I am not a fan of confusing buzz words.

[@mccarthymccarthy237]

Trump Phase out the EPA and go back to the best refrigerant possible

[@JohnSmith-ug5ci]

Heat pumps are a joke.

[@Amovida123]

I happen to be looking out the window while writing this while visiting my family in Spain....I can sees hundreds of heat pumps dotting hundreds of apartments and houses here in Granada. @JohnSmith-ug5ci Do you mind if I respectfully ask what makes you think heat pumps are a joke? The technology had a terrible introduction in parts of the US many years ago but they have come a really long way. We looked at air to water and given the age of our home and the delivered water temps we could not make the Sanco work. Thanks John!

[@JohnSmith-ug5ci]

@@Amovida123 Thank you for the question. They are a joke because they only work properly in limited climates. Secondly they are every expensive up front and do not really save money based on initial cost. Third they are very expensive to repair. Lastly, they do not last as long as just a standalone air conditioner and certainly not as long as a gas fired furnace. Now is there any place that they may work properly certainly, but very, very few places.

[@Amovida123]

@@JohnSmith-ug5ci Thanks John....appreciate your reponse. I agree with you on cost but would add that a lot of that cost is high cost on the labor for install. We are having a unit put in for our daughter's room....$2k for indoor/outdoor unit (wall mount)...and roughly $8K for install/labor/electrical...which in my book is insane. We will probably DIY some of our units for the savings...when companies charge that much for labor they are just asking to be cut out. In regards to weather I know the Mitsubishi units can work down to -13F at 70% efficiency. I live in CO so that generally works for us and we will have a boiler/radiator system as backup for the once in 5 year events when we get below those temps. I have heard that the Chinese units Midea/Gree are not designed to last nearly as long but the costs on the units are cheap enough that it would be feasible to swap at a unit if it were to fail. Anyway...thanks for letting me add my 2 cents and appreciate your insight.

[@JohnSmith-ug5ci]

@@Amovida123 Though I stand on what I said I do thank you for sharing.

[@reinhardtiushippoglossoides]

Zzzzzz

[@Gutter-Snipe]

Glaring Problem with Heat pumps! I live in a cold or Northeastern climate and have no desire to stand out in the elements of weather trouble shooting in the cold. Add every other owner i know labor is a major problem with the younger crowd and the older more experienced mechanics feel just like i do, so what is the solution every one? Pay skilled Heat pump Mechanics by a much larger factor than those working with Gas furnaces. Meaning buy a Heat pump for you home in cool or cold climates at your own parrel.

[@BenIsInSweden]

Not really been a problem here in Sweden, where there's cold weather for 4 to 6 months of the year, it doesn't pay to be a fair-weather worker in any outdoor trade. A house across the street is currently having its roof replaced, which has taken days of being outside in below-freezing weather. Relatively tame compared to when I had a heat pump installed in below-freezing temperatures between Christmas and New year. Which only took the guy a couple of hours.

[@marconantel7735]

@@Gutter-Snipe I used to think so too, but honestly, it’s the customers issue, not mine. I push heat strips for backup and they can run them till it warms up. A pop up tent and heaters keep me warm and dry, it just rolls into my price, the tent setup and breakdown, they can choose to repair at the time and pay, or pay the electric bill till it’s warm enough I can repair comfortably. It’s not my problem, and, I am the solution