Is Joel evil in The Last of Us?

One thing that’s incredibly good about the last of us, is that everything that happens is pretty morally grey. There is not really any good and evil side in the last of us and the same goes for the characters. But despite that there is a lot of discussion on who and what is evil within the last of us. And one of the biggest of those evil or not discussions revolves around the main character of the last of us: Joel. Is Joel evil in the last of us?
Hey everyone! So, yet another, potentially controversial video. This time we’re talking about our favourite grumpy Texan in the last of us: Joel! Is Joel really evil? Well the last of us is not really a game that tells us such things, so we’ll have to determine that ourselves. So, here’s my interpretation of the whole ‘’is Joel evil in the last of us’’ debate.
Enjoy!
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[@jaydedjen110]

He's not evil, he's surviving. The apocalypse is going to be hard, and people will have to make hard decisions.

[@Lilhajxjk274]

Removing the cure from humanity isnt surviving. He was evil for that. Everyone is bad in a way this is a grey game but he is evil for what he did and for his hunter years.

[@redyyz4489]

@@Lilhajxjk274 You really think One faction os only hundreds of people who aren't even a military faction could make a vaccine for a FUNGUS INFECTION 1: There is no Fungus Vaccine even with the medication we have rn, so in a world where 60% of the population is dead, Supplies are scarce, Etc Yeah Joel made a smart choice :p 2: The Fireflies were pretty scummy to be honest, If you remember in the first parts of the game, Marlene PROMISED Joel & Tess (rip) their weapons If Joel brought Ellie to their Firefly base safe, He did...And guess what they didn't even do that, And the fact that you could see Joel's backback as the firefly soldier walks him out at Gunpoint meaning/implies That they weren't even gonna give him his supplies back and was gonna force him to get new supplies from the ground up :p 3: As Joel is a father who lost his daughter from the world, that hits very, very hard. And Ellie was like a 2nd daughter to him, And answer this question Would you help the people in the world who took everything from you? No. probably not. Now yes, Joel ain't no saint, but i wouldn't say him Evil. Violent yes, but not Evil If he was evil, In the Lakeside part of the game, He tortures Two Of David's men Why does he do this? To Get info to Rescue Ellie, Does he take pleasure in torturing them? Nope.

[@zanetlou1689]

@@redyyz4489 You should say this in the comments not on some dumbasses comment

[@patricioperez7323]

@@Lilhajxjk274 bruh humanity is full of shit to begin with, im sure your dumbass would have done the same thing Joel did if your lover or relative was they key to the “cure”

[@Riley095]

What do you mean "going to be"

[@arigulgen9645]

"We all go a little mad sometimes"

[@itsblitz4437]

War Makes Men Mad.

[@alexnedin]

Important to remember: most of the time the player doesn’t have to kill people in the game. In most situations it is possible to be sneaky and reach the next location unnoticed. Apart from Boston, the reason for Joel to kill is always self-defense or danger for Ellie (the torture scene is an exception though).

[@TheiPadCat]

Well, that’s really from a gameplay perspective. What’s interesting is what’s canon. In Pittsburgh you can sneak past some of the hunters but the lookout that runs up to his friends at the financial plaza still says “some tourist killed all 72 of them”. So even if you sneaked by some them canonically they still die. I get what you mean though. The game doesn’t force you to kill everyone thus indicating Joel might be less violent than we make him out to be.

[@alexnedin]

TheiPadCat nice detail about 72 killed hunters. Didn’t even think about it before. Hold on... I remember that moment. Don’t remember number 72 though...

[@Micheal93k]

Except the ambushes, where he kills people. Which is probably why his brother left him.

[@fedra5873]

@@Micheal93k food

[@corvus_armatura7595]

Well, to be fair, the Fireflies never paid him properly either. They were practically becoming like the Hunters by trying to not just steal them but also for plotting to kill them both. If you look at the tapes, you can see that they had already voted on killing him and looked for an excuse. I may be someone who sympathizes with the Hunters' situation a bit more but I see this whole journey and situation as more of a compromise between the ideologies of a Hunter(Joel) and a Firefly(Ellie). Just like back when the Fireflies and the Hunters first rose up against the Military. Because not only is it just for survival but also for their individual freedom.

[@leaderstragg]

True, You'd think they would give him those guns in only to BRIBE him into not having a problem with what they planned to do with Ellie... Frankly, I think "The Hunters" were anti-heroes AT BEST, if they were sympathetic they would have let Joel and Ellie go through their territory just because it was causing them so much hassle trying to kill them! They might have been in it just for survival ONCE, but by the time Joel and Ellie had to go through them to keep traveling they had become even more savage to the point where they were killing "tourists" just so they could be SURE they would have plenty of resources and supplies around!

[@keknov5555]

Also what would this vaccine change anyway? The worlds fucked, society is pretty much dead. All that’s left are hunters, cannibals, rapists, and infected. The world in tlou isn’t a fairy tale. Also if anyone tries to argue with me please say something that isn’t “it’s just a game”

[@barrybananas2737]

There is no good or evil in the apocalypse. Everyone is a survivor. Some people are just crueler than others.

[@catholic-ronin3682]

Like David

[@fedra5873]

COVID is one good example

[@D.Records]

Joel is a product of the world he lives in

[@TLOUStrategist]

It’s objective yes, but actions are not isolated from their environment. When one compares Joel’s actions in the game with our current civilization, there are many aspects that one could consider “evil” in that regard. In the environment of The Last of Us, I cannot call him evil...no way. In terms of the ending, I do not think Joel or his choices were evil. The world was already so far gone, decency was gone...and the Fireflies would’ve used the vaccine as a political tool. Who would they give the vaccine to anyways? The hunters of Pittsburgh? Nah. The Fireflies philosophy, methodology, and organization were severely flawed in my opinion...and I actually view them as antagonists in Part I. They brought pain, suffering, and death to entire cities...all for the fallacy and belief they could revive a way of life that was already way past the point of no return. But that’s just my take on it...😉👍🏻

[@TheiPadCat]

Despite circumstances being drastically different to that of our own world, I still think morals need to exist. Even in the most extreme of situations in the real world, some even resembling apocalypses - like on battlefields during wartime, we still value them. Take WWII. After the absolute inhuman bloodbath that was WWI when god knows how many inventions from hell were unleashed upon the enemy. people still, even when hating each other agreed upon things that are just too inhuman and thus, at least how I interpret it, evil. Despite WWII being an absolute bloodbath too and when countless soldiers found themselves in extreme situations they still, to a degree upheld conventions and rules of war. Morality still existed despite the fact that parts of the world were as close to a real apocalypse as we’ve ever had. I don’t believe that any circumstance is extreme enough for a person’s actions to be exempt from judgement. Or that any situation no matter how bad calls for the abandonment of the concept of right and wrong. I don’t accept the “this is the wasteland now and it’s every man for himself, therefore me killing countless people for my self-interest is not really that bad”. It’s still bad. Especially since a lot of the people fighting in the world of the last of us were alive before the outbreak and thus have lived at least part of their lives without committing atrocities. The social contract forces people to live by General right and wrong/good and evil rules. Just because it ceases to exist doesn’t mean those same concepts do. Is it the law that makes murdering a bunch of people bad? If it suddenly became legal to kill people would it become okay or not evil to do what Joel did at the hospital? In the end I do agree with your points about the fireflies. But really don’t think the fact that a vaccine wouldn’t be effective in solving the worlds problems, or the world being too far gone makes a mass murder of them all morally neutral. It was a selfish act for Joel to save himself. And regardless of the absence of the rule of law it was a bad action. Not intending to sound angry or anything lol. Sorry if I do. Writing this at 3am but i just thought your comment was too interesting to not reply to immediately, so it might not be the best. Anyways appreciate you watching and commenting t-starts :)

[@TLOUStrategist]

I hear ya man, I know what you mean. It’s a topic far too complex to elaborate within a YT comment, so I’ll post a quote from Alan Waterman’s book The Psychology of Individualism which explains my feelings on this situation far better than I could: “While the categorical imperative is a formal criteria for defining what is moral, it does not in itself specify what universal moral principles should guide behavior. One such principle embodied in ethical individualism is eudaimonism itself. It is universal in that every person has their own unique potentials which can (and should) give direction to their lives. Every daimon is worthy of realization. But not all actions are permissible in the striving for self-fulfillment. The philosophy of ethical individualism specifies three principles which serve as limits on behavior: (a) freedom of choice (liberty), (b) respect for the integrity of others, and (c) justice as equity.” I’d post a link to his book and scholarly articles, but YT will flag it as spam. Perhaps one day we can do a chat and go into some concepts in greater detail, that would be fun! And no, I never thought you were angry for a moment. 😊👍🏻

[@TheiPadCat]

I’d love to, such an interesting topic :)

[@itsblitz4437]

@@TLOUStrategist I agree that Fireflies and how they do things are dumb but they trying to fight for something they believe for a better future because let's be honest FEDRA are a bunch of dicks since they are essentially a military dictatorship, but the Hunters are way worse.

[@jamesford2724]

@@itsblitz4437 what makes the hunters worse than the fireflies, they do the shit they do to stay alive. The fireflies do what they do to try to bring a back the world that they lost, a world that even with a cure, would never come back taking tons of lives not even for self preservation, but for an idealistic lost cause

[@cauliflau6460]

I don't find joel good or evil tbh

[@TheiPadCat]

I agree. He’s done some messed up shit. But he’s not a psychopath and he’s definitely not entirely bad. He’s morally grey, just like the naughty gods wanted him to be ;)

[@pizzaneapolitanXD]

TheiPadCat like Tess said before her death “we’re shitty people Joel” I’m not saying he’s all that shitty but he has done some pretty scummy things, like kill men he has interrogated after they gave him the info he wanted and stuff like that

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

Same here...he just trying to stay alive

[@CyberWolf-oi6iv]

"I wouldn't say Joel is totally evil. But he has done, and probably will do, more evil things in TLOU2" ... Boy, that aged terribly 😅

[@vincentcordi]

I mean he ended a good game of golf with a Joel in one. That was kinda rude on his part

[@generalr1700]

@@vincentcordi very punny

[@dirtydan1889]

While watching this video for some reason I look back at the Old Joel and the new Joel and I was like they are so different I mean wow

[@TheiPadCat]

Yeah Joel went through a lot in those 20 years.

[@ThelasTofusGaming]

Another great video - thank you! I'd also say our opinions of Joel may be unavoidably coloured by how we choose to play the game. Using stealth & relying on NPCs, Joel's kills can be ~170 of ~400 enemies, and even a handful of that lower number come from custcenes. If we choose, we can make Joel remarkably merciful - or not, of course. Out of interest, Joel's lie at the end has always been perhaps the most talked about topic, which is why I decided to review it as closely as I could. I came to the (possibly controversial) conclusion that, if you examine it bit by bit, he may not have been lying at all. And yes, I tuned it into a video, because that's what one does!

[@TheiPadCat]

Of course! I usually just go guns blazing because I’ve played it so many times. But someone else might get another perspective playing a stealthy assassin-type Joel. Though, that still doesn’t change his past or his harsh personality and way of dealing with certain things. Again I don’t believe he’s pure evil. But he’s no saint either. I mean the lie isn’t a white lie. There is some truth to it - since the fireflies have been trying all those 20 years with little to no success and undoubtedly used other people as test subjects. But it’s also implied that Ellie is like nothing they’ve seen before meaning that all that research indeed was leading them somewhere - to Ellie. But take Ellie out of the equation and yes what Joel says about them not getting anywhere and it not doing them any good is true.

[@inotunderage5591]

The way that neil wrote for Joel was amazing because many people forgave what joel did even though what he did was bad and i think thats why people are crying over joel becuase they way neil made Joel and made us care for him

[@MadMatt41]

Great vid iPadCat. Some very interesting points of view. For me Joel us not evil. We see him as a regular guy and a loving father in the opening chapter. But he and his life are changed forever when the outbreak starts and his daughter is murdered. This would have a profound affect and change anyone. Joel is a survivor and does whatever it takes in a lawless post apocalyptic world. A good man forced into a new way of being due to these circumstances. Evil? No. His care for Ellie Tess Bill Henry and Sam during the story prove that he cannot be an evil person. Just badass 👍

[@TheiPadCat]

Well I agree. Joel isn’t a saint. But he isn’t evil either. He’s done some evil stuff, but what you mentioned and him not being a psychopath in general is proof he isn’t

[@jakobpedersen3347]

Yeah, I don't really have anything new to add; but Neil and Bruce have stated multiple times; that they do not like to categorize a given character (in TLoU), as good or evil. I guess, as others have stated, it is in the grey area - shades of grey. Everyone 'just' does what is necesarry to aid themself, and or multiple other people. Joel has done terrible things, but as you said, not because he is downright evil - but because it was necesarry for his survival, atleast according to his own subjective perspective. A classic example of good and evil, can be seen with David's group. They, just like Joel, do terrible things to take care of those they love/care, in this case the group. To Joel and Ellie, they are an obstacle, and as the player in controll of Joel, it is easy to say that they are evil, ruthless and terrible, because they are trying to kill Joel, and the only one he cares for, Ellie. On the other hand, every survivor from David's group, sees Joel and Ellie as the evil, because they see them as a threat to their people - and at first, maybe at potentiel supply-source to aid their group's survival. Nolan North, who portrayed David, has also stated multiple times that he does not beleive David is bad/evil, but instead that he has to make difficult choices to save/secure his own - the good/best for the group. Objectively, the things each of these characters have done, e.g. killing, is a terrible action, but it is justfied as a "good"/necesitty for the individual character. TL ; DR, good and evil is dependant on the individual/group and his/her/their justifications. I apoligize for this mess of a comment/ramble, haha! Great video, yet again.

[@TheiPadCat]

Don’t apologise for making in depth comments. I ask for people to comment their opinion for a reason, how can one have a meaningful discussion without writing a bit :) Yes. Good and evil only really exist in peoples/nations/laws/individuals perceptions of it. Its not something absolute, like a proven scientific fact. It’s all about we believe, very few people see themselves as the bad guy unless they’re a comic book villain or just weird or a psychopath. Most people in modern society have have a general sense of what’s evil and what’s not in common, since that’s evolved through centuries of society progressing. But it’s very simple, like “killing your fellow man is bad” but things are rarely so simple. Especially in tlou, just like you said - ND made it so that it’s all a greyscale. There is more perspectives than just “doing this is bad - end of discussion” that’s why it’s so fun to discuss. This video is just my personal interpretation of the good and evil in the game. Someone else might see it a totally different way. And that’s neither more right or wrong than me. Thanks for watching and commenting :)

[@jakobpedersen3347]

@@TheiPadCat Yeah, these discussions/reflections are a testament to the complex world and characters ND have created. I very much enjoy watching/reading others opinions, and these are of course my own - however I agree with a lot of your statements, if not all, I can't fully remember as of now - just to underline I wasn't undermining your views. Not insinuating you feel like I have, just stating it to make sure. I really appreciate your engagement and passion with your audience; of course to my own post, but definitely also to everyone else who has commented - mad respect. I am looking forward to more of your interesting videos. I am very pleased that i stumbled upon this channel! Keep up the great work. Cheers! :]

[@TheiPadCat]

Of course not! And even if you were i wouldn’t have a problem with anyone insulting or trying to insult my viewpoint, I want a discussion and what good would asking for one do me if I couldn’t stand anyone disagreeing with me? Really appreciate the support and the kind words, and I look forward to discussing more interesting topics with you in future comment sections!

[@jakobpedersen3347]

@@TheiPadCat Well said, well said! That is also what's so great about this channel - it really IS a discussion, and everyone is welcome to state their thoughts and opinions. Great achivement, wonderful community - I would have wished I had found it sooner, but a lot more is of course to come. :] You deserve the kind words and support! Hell yeah! I look forward to that too! I really should start to look into that Discord at some point. :]

[@catholic-ronin3682]

@@TheiPadCat David is a complete monster

[@rhinohorn1258]

He's most definitely not evil but is very clear that he is willing to do some pretty questionable things in order to survive as most people would do in the real world I my self do not think he is a bad person but a unstable just another survivor doing anything he can to survive and protect what he loves aka Ellie. I love Joel and although I thought some of his choices seemed "bad" and something I my self would not do or be able to do but evil no just a survivor and no matter what you keep finding something to fight for

[@TheiPadCat]

I mean we’ll never know what we’ll do until we find ourselves in that situation. I hope we never will but even though I consider some of Joel’s actions to be evil I’m not sure that I’d be above doing some of that if I were in his position.

[@rhinohorn1258]

+TheiPadCat agreed

[@donovanumbra9704]

I think this is the best moral analysis I've seen of Joel yet, and I agree with your nuanced but sensible take. Joel is not a sadistic psychopath or a cartoonist supervillain, but he does repeatedly cross egregious moral lines for selfish, unjustifiable reasons. There is evil in him. There is evil in many people, but I think our sophistication regarding the nature of morality has degraded rapidly in the past 20-30 years. People have become more and more ruthless, self-centered and shortsighted in this materialistic and greedy world. So the average person's take these days is shockingly degenerate. In the days of the Great Depression, people were able to survive because they were cooperative, they looked out for each other and considered each other, even though times were hard. A depression happening in our time would be much worse because of how disloyal and puffed-up everyone is.

[@diegomatute723]

Thanks for your thoughts and impressions. I just subscribe. I loved the Last of Us franchise. I am playing part 2 now and so far it is amazing 😉

[@Taco_chalupa7644]

Have you finished it yet😂😂😂😂😂😂😂your probably gonna hate it, I don't hate it myself it's pretty good👏👏👏

[@diegomatute723]

anonymous I haven’t finished it and yes I know everything. Still, I don’t know man... I just love this kind of games... This one specifically is brutal, vast and beautiful. Probably get a lot of hate.. I absolutely love Joel... but still I played as Abby and really like her.. playing as her. It is what it is... maybe the story we don’t like but that is what we have. Let just enjoy the game.

[@ascghostgod1414]

"Is Joel Evil? We don't know"

[@Homelander1234]

Maybe. In TLOU PT3, they could erase any existence of TLOUPT2. And show us Joel's time in the hunter gang, as I would like to know why did he join in the first place? Why did he choose to murder innocent people? What safety did the gang bring him? Where did he go after he loses his daughter in the intro? What happened after his daughter died? And why did Tommy join the fireflies? How did he stumble across the quarantine zone and meet tess?. I just have so many questions many more than I wrote down, and I would like to have those answered in TLOUPT3.

[@TheiPadCat]

I doubt that would ever happen and that it could even be called part iii, but man would I love it if it actually did. Joel’s story between the prologue of part I and Boston is my #1 untold story I’d like to see portrayed somehow by ND. But yeah, like I said, at this point I doubt it’d ever happen

[@fish4139]

I only think Joel is evil for killing innocent people but in general i dont think he's truly evil. In TLOU world it's kill or be killed most of the time so it'll really hard to say if Joel is truly evil or not. He didn't have to kill the fireflies that were ordered to kill him but he did it to live and get Ellie back. He didn't have to kill the main doctor but he just wanted Ellie back. Joel joining the hunters doesn't make him evil at all but his actions (depending on the things he did) for being a hunter can be evil. Killing Marlen is honestly what i would do because she would have gone after them and i understand why Joel killed her but it still wasn't a good thing to do and the same with those two cannibals he got information from. If it was up to me i would have just left them there, all tied up. Joel isn't a good boy but he's also not a bad boy. Id love to talk about Ellie but i'll have to wait till the game comes out. I can say my other opinions about this but i don't want to make it super long. Anyway i view Joel as Ying Yang situation basically.

[@TheiPadCat]

Yep. He’s a grayscale boy ;) just like the naughty gods wanted him to be

[@edcruz8820]

He just knew how to survive I would be the same way, it would be different if the world was normal and he did all that killing

[@garylococo2401]

There is difference in bad and evil when most ppl do something bad most the time they had good intentions or some times selfish now if u do bad acts and get joy out of it for example hurting ppl and killing or wat ever then that is evil now as for Joel I don't see him evil at all he did wat he had to do to survive in a end of the world type of thing survival of the fitis or wat ever

[@moodyowlproductions4287]

There is no good or evil in a world like this...there just people trying to stay alive...no matter what../it called luck....and it is gonna run out"Joel miller

[@quaktoons331]

Joel is as evil as anyone in the last of us

[@jamessturrs8550]

Honestly I don't agree with a lot of what Joel did in the early years, being a hunter and all but if someone I care about was going to be killed, even for the rest of humanity, I would do exactly what Joel did for Ellie.

[@TheiPadCat]

I would probably do the same, but that does not excuse the selfishness of it. I agree with a lot of the atrocious stuff he does but I still think some of it is evil.

[@jamessturrs8550]

@@TheiPadCat yeah I agree. There is no way Joel is a good person. But I wouldn't call him a bad guy either. See its discussions like this why last of us is and always will be one of my favourite games ever =-)

[@TheiPadCat]

I know right! I love having this channel as a way to discuss this awesome game with other fans! Thanks for watching and commenting :)

[@jamessturrs8550]

@@TheiPadCat and that's a reason this is one of my favourite channels. Unlike a lot of other youtubers you actually interact with your subscribers and reply to comments.

[@TheiPadCat]

Of course, what discussion is one way? Don’t understand people who don’t reply.

[@brandangl4040]

When the news of the last of us part 2?

[@TheiPadCat]

Well I don’t know. If i did you’d see it on my channel. I like to do other stuff beside part II news too you know ;)

[@jorgerincon6874]

I don't think he's evil at all, or my definition of evil would be doing objectively bad stuff just for the sake of one's own enjoyment and pleasure. Doing bad stuff to survive is shitty, and selfish but not evil. The hunters killing "innocents" for resources and ambushing Joel and Ellie (which Joel did in the past) yeah that's kind of evil, cause you put much more value in your comfort, than the value of the humans you're killing for said confort. So yeah that would be evil

[@JaffytaffyBTC]

I predicted that Joel is the leader and/or founder of the Seraphites.

[@TheiPadCat]

Interesting theory! Could you elaborate? I mean anything’s possible but Joel was in Texas when the outbreak started and the seraphites were formed around then but in Seattle. Do you mean the disaster camp he wound up in could’ve been in Seattle? It’s certainly possible, but personally I’m not so sure.

[@JaffytaffyBTC]

@@TheiPadCat I'm leaning more towards him being the leader of the Seraphites. TLOUstrategist made me think this way in his A Discerning Glance video. You know in the Gameplay reveal where there is a poster of a blonde girl that says something like, "May she guide you"? That girl could be a representation of Sarah, Joel's daughter. Sarah happened to die an innocent death with a bullet wound to the stomach. And that may be the reason why the Seraphites disembowel everyone: to make them suffer the same way Sarah did. And Joel may be leading them. I think at the end of the story, Ellie will meet the leader of the Seraphites, Joel, and go through a long, tough Battle that lasts many gameplay minutes and eventually Ellie will kill him, right after she killed every last one of the SSeraphites.Ellie and her daughter, the Mystery Woman, continue the franchise into The Last of Us: Part III. That's my prediction.

[@TheiPadCat]

That is certainly a cool theory. I guess just time will tell :)

[@TamLe-vb5ig]

That was a good theory. Until the Seraphites gut people

[@jish55]

Not evil, but definitely not a saint either, and as we see in TLoU2, his actions finally came and got him killed in the process. The entire point of TLoU2 isn't a revenge story, it's a story that shows consequences, shows us that a persons actions aren't going to give us the outcome we desire 99% of the time and that when we do something, there's a ripple effect. Joel learned that, and then Abby learned that as if she had killed Ellie, her friends would still be alive, but because of this, the first time nearly got her killed and got her friends killed. Ellie learned about the consequences at the end when she finally returned to realize she gave up a happy life for revenge, in turn losing everything and gaining nothing in the end.

[@cedricjustina.alcoseba6880]

Joel is basically John kreese from karate kid/cobra kai

[@Trebuchet26]

Simple: Joel is EVIL... just like everybody else who is NOT a Sherrifffzz... so we will disembowwwwel him, like the rest of them... nested with Sin...

[@TheiPadCat]

You degenerate cultists will meet a swift end as soon as you meet FEDRA...

[@Trebuchet26]

Well, maybe... as long as FEDRA does not Ragequit, they might have a chance...? ;)

[@Trebuchet26]

Hmmm... that might be my new PSN-name... I like it.

[@Xavier-ev3tw]

So him saving ellie is bad a vaccine wont do shit againts a fungi

[@florentinovasquez3801]

"I'm necessary evil."

[@mtv565]

He shouldn't have killed Gabby's father, it's not the fault of Gabby's father (and his nurses). Marlene (before the mission), should have told Joel that Ellie would have to die eventually for the making of the cure.

[@docairline5016]

Joel and Sarah were not "mistaken as infected". They were outside of the quarantine zone and the soldiers were not taking any chances.

[@badreedinedjellali1328]

he's just doing what he can to survive so he's not a bad guy and what about the people who try to all ways try to robbehim are the innocent

[@casanovajackson1023]

I don't consider The torture scene evil He never said he would let me go I'm pretty certain If he did They would have Attacked him . One of them even Said let me go and I'll fuck you up

[@Taco_chalupa7644]

One word No

[@kbubuntu6048]

he is but i like it

[@Mazownzall]

just beat the game for the first time. I cant think of a fictional character in any form of media more outright evil than joel at the end of this. not even satan.

[@redyyz4489]

Joel isn't a saint, he isn't a Demon He's a Survivor. a Man who lost everything from the world. In my opinion, He is not evil, He does all this in the sense of Survival.

[@katrinawallace335]

i don't find joel evil because in the last of us world you struggle to survive everyday and joel has to kill like and in the final chapter where you find the fireflys and joel the outbreak changes him and his daughter sarah death changed him but joel does everything to survive and about the final chapter joel doesn't want to lose another baby girl ellie and joel does everything after the outbreak and his baby girl sarah death and joel does everything to survive the outbreak and in a apocalypse joel does the right to survive no matter what

[@I.D.I.O.C.R.A.C.Y.]

And then I became unreasonable... listen good and evil do exist. However, once the structure of society breaks down, morality goes with it. Is Joel evil as a whole? No, he's a deeply flawed individual formed by extremely unfortunate and adverse events. Is he good? He's certainly capable of extreme selfless actions which a person who is evil for the sake of being evil wouldn't engage in. Like most of us, he's a mixture of good and bad. His defining characteristic is he simply does things to survive for the most part. Having your hand forced in a sense is far different than just being violent to be violent. His solutions were pragmatic mostly. You don't have the options of morality or questioning what needs to be immediately done.

[@TamLe-vb5ig]

10:16 lol

[@jvvayne555]

I love Joel and I believe in realistic terms he is a Good person

[@Micheal93k]

lol

[@danielromero001]

he risked the entire humanity

[@fedra5873]

@@danielromero001 na

[@Live_From_Live]

Not the swedish subs

[@Live_From_Live]

(In some parts)

[@OGNOGOD]

This didn’t age well.

[@thamilton8383]

He ain’t a good man tho he did a lot of fucked up shit and sooner or later his actions were gonna catch up to him and they did.like it or not

[@announcer3304]

@@thamilton8383 abby did a fucked up thing to get revenge on someone who did fucked up things but abby is supposed to be completely innocent and liked by everyone

[@thamilton8383]

announcer when was it pushed that she was innocent ?

[@akmil807]

@@announcer3304 Abby is not meant to be good or innocent. She became what Joel became in here 3 days in Seartle (Ellie is in her story Lev), making her just as good or bad as Joel. Only the revenge part sets her apart from Joel. Joel never seeked revenge. Bt But shortly, neither of them is better than the other

[@GloryLalitha]

The irony dude .. Joel was a survivor in tlou1 he killed many to save Ellie and TRUSTED NOBODY,He lived. In tlou2,he SAVES A STRANGER'S A*S, he BLINDLY TRUSTS STERIOD_SHE#HULK# and Tommy reveals their names too,he dies

[@UnknownOps]

He's not evil, He's traumatized, He's forced to do actions others will say he shouldn't have done and will give a ten-page plan on how to do things their way. Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face.

[@tekbaly980]

I wouldn’t call him evil after they rob him of his daughter and before he met his brother again before that one mission after all that and he has no loved ones he is just sat there in that quarantine zone so calling him evil is just sad

[@danielromero001]

he killed millions of innocent people by not letting the vaccine to develop

[@fedra5873]

I wish we’d see what happens after her death maybe on the bridge Edit: with the remake we might see