Generation 2 4680 Tested // Results & Analysis

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The Limiting Factor

The Limiting Factor

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 160
@ralphnolletti9988
@ralphnolletti9988 3 ай бұрын
Another battery master class by the Master Of Battery Education. Thanks Jordon!
@SparkySho
@SparkySho 3 ай бұрын
MASTER. !!! MASTER. !!!
@gridcoregilry666
@gridcoregilry666 3 ай бұрын
you are a gem of the Tesla community (and my investment thesis haha)
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
🤠✊🏼 You're most welcome man! I'm glad the information is useful
@WarrenRedlich
@WarrenRedlich 3 ай бұрын
Thanks Jordan. Another great one.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks for watching Warren! 🤠✊🏼
@vaclavmatousek3007
@vaclavmatousek3007 3 ай бұрын
Jordan, as usual, tons of quality info! Your Patreon is well deserved!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks buddy! 🤠
@josephvanorden3782
@josephvanorden3782 3 ай бұрын
Professional and well done!
@GOVAUS1
@GOVAUS1 3 ай бұрын
Just excellent. I wish more people would strive to watch this kind of content. I keep dreaming.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Me too! 😁
@iandavies4853
@iandavies4853 3 ай бұрын
Totally. It keeps our expectations grounded to incremental tiny improvements vs next miracle unobtanium others might promote. There’s so much we can’t see like the manufacturing machinery.
@kevinrey9427
@kevinrey9427 3 ай бұрын
Thanks so much for the continued high quality research you provide!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Sure thing man!
@chilzone966
@chilzone966 3 ай бұрын
Great job Jordan. Sustainable development is important. You might want to consider annually the recyclable are the packs and companies, country and newest efforts in furthering sustainable development.
@xjdisuehd
@xjdisuehd 3 ай бұрын
One implicit result of this analysis, is that as soon as cells reach production capacity for enough cybertrucks and have excess production, we can start to see Model Y's and then later Model 3's with these cells. Maybe the Model Y refresh will be with these cells.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I hope so!
@ftivolle
@ftivolle 3 ай бұрын
Impressive work! Glad to know that the 4680 is now a NMC955. Off topic, would you know if an LFP 4680 would make sense? Lower energy density and lower cost but the 4680 format would allow for better thermal management.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I think an lfp 4680 vehicles makes sense for a number of reasons Primarily because it would lower Tesla's cogs With that said, I don't think Tesla's going to be making an lfp 4680 anytime soon. They still have to get the nickel lines up and running Note: An LFP 4680 doesn't make sense for grid storage where larger cells make more sense
@ftivolle
@ftivolle 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor totally with you on the grid LFP where prismatic is good enough.
@l33tLX
@l33tLX 3 ай бұрын
Wouldn’t it be nmc 9.5.5?
@iandavies4853
@iandavies4853 3 ай бұрын
@@l33tLXexactly. But it’s shorthand for industry insiders. Could also go 90/5/5 as a way more descriptive form.
@georgepelton5645
@georgepelton5645 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor Do you really think the 4680 form factor is the right cell size for LFP used in EV packs? Elon and Drew have made comments about 4680 not being right for LFP due to "physics" in past quarterly conference calls. They may be referring to the voltage vs. SOC curve for LFP. The flat curve may be a problem for cells connected in parallel, vs. one larger cell. The voltage of the parallel cells will be the same, but the SOC may not. Most LFP packs for EVs use large cells connected in series (only), instead of cell groups connected in parallel-series. This might be the reason.
@JosueC730
@JosueC730 3 ай бұрын
It's exciting to see how this tech keeps evolving and giving more possibilities. It's truly amazing to think that this was just theory a few years ago and now it's happening for real. It certainly took a long time to develop, but we are seeing results and that's wonderful.
@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461
@budgetaudiophilelife-long5461 3 ай бұрын
🙋‍♂️THANKS JORDAN AND YOUR SUPPORTERS,EVERYONE ELSE 🤗💚💚💚
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
✊🤠
@mattheweaton1420
@mattheweaton1420 3 ай бұрын
This is great insight into the 4680 project.
@longmuskox4194
@longmuskox4194 3 ай бұрын
You're awesome, Jordan!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks man!😊
@keithnance4209
@keithnance4209 3 ай бұрын
Great teamwork Jordan et al! 🙏🏽🤙🏽
@tommckinney1489
@tommckinney1489 3 ай бұрын
Thanks man. I was confused at first about the thinner anode/cathode and higher energy density, then I realized the thinner can allows more volume for the battery. Sometimes I'm a step or two behind, but I eventually catch up.....
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Yeah, I probably could have called that out specifically, it's not immediately obvious 🤠
@NicholasShanks
@NicholasShanks 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor"For those of you who are a bit slow, that means more space in the middle." :-)
@TheDanishSpaceman
@TheDanishSpaceman 3 ай бұрын
Great work Jordan! Thank you 🙌
@johso87
@johso87 3 ай бұрын
Utmost respect for your dedication, to all of you
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
@dustinabele
@dustinabele 3 ай бұрын
Great analysis as always! I'm really excited to see Tesla making strides with their high nickel cathodes. This shift will not only help with performance but also with sustainability and supply chain challenges. Can't wait to see how this tech evolves!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Yes! It's a big relief to see them making such great strides
@maxbuc1
@maxbuc1 24 күн бұрын
Grazie.
@chrisfrandsen
@chrisfrandsen 3 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Sure thing buddy!
@alex135789
@alex135789 3 ай бұрын
Great info. Thanks for sharing.
@helmutshotthesheriff1942
@helmutshotthesheriff1942 3 ай бұрын
What a team work ❤👍 👍 👍
@RWBHere
@RWBHere 2 ай бұрын
Around 09:30 - Another consideration is that, if you limit Cathode capacity, and allow a small excess in Anode capacity, that will reduce the risk of Anode plating significantly, and should improve cycle life.
@noisypl
@noisypl 3 ай бұрын
FYI: I came here to watch your video, because you got an awesome endorsement for this video from Electrified channel ;)
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Awesome! Dillon is a great guy. Thanks for stopping by!
@Marcin_Kwidzinski
@Marcin_Kwidzinski 3 ай бұрын
Asymmetric lamination is already in use. Take a look at SEM images of electrodes in Figure 10. (b) and (d) of "Lithium-Ion Cells in Automotive Application: Tesla 4680 Cylindrical Cell Teardown and Characterization" (better quality in supplementary material)
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
It's not. I looked into it. It looks like it, but it's not.
@avivofir7432
@avivofir7432 3 ай бұрын
When the can wall thickness is reduced by 3mm, not only does the can weigh less, but one can also add a more jelly roll in the same can outer diameter (inner diameter is now 6mm larger). This should be taken into account, especially since the total length of the jelly roll scales roughly as r^2, i.e. small increase in inner diameter will result in a large impact on the total length of the jelly roll.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
That was taken into account
@charlescole-p9v
@charlescole-p9v 3 ай бұрын
Nobody does it better than You ! By a HUGE margin .
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks man!
@MrFoxRobert
@MrFoxRobert 3 ай бұрын
Thank you!
@sallerc
@sallerc 3 ай бұрын
Thanks
@yourlydontknowjack
@yourlydontknowjack 3 ай бұрын
Two things you might have missed: The new Cathode is (in my opinion) clearly a blend of SC and pC Cathode material (see the larger loose grains between the defined balls made um of tiny crystals?). This could very well deliver 5-10% higher density. 2nd Li-doping can be done with sacrificial Li-substances like Li5FeO4 or (also patented by testla) Li3Cu/CoO3 (I'm unsure if LFO is compatible with non-phosphate materials), doing Li-metal is potentially needlessly complex and also expensive - not to speak of, fairly dangerous
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
1) Great point and a good insight! If that's true, then it would put the estimate/hypothetical energy density from the improvements closer to the actual energy density. 2) True, but it's worth checking out Tesla's process. Because they use a dry process they might be able to get away with it, and not have to worry about the dead weight that comes with other lithium doping materials.
@w0ttheh3ll
@w0ttheh3ll 3 ай бұрын
For charging speed, it might be useful to look at cathode active material roll total surface area relative to cell capacity. For that we would need the thickness of the current collectors.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
There's a number of variables involved for total resistance and charging speed. On the ionic side, which dominates resistance, it involves particle size, porosity, tortuosity, thickness of the electrodes, and seperator thickness. That's not to mention the amount of carbon nanotubes or carbon black and electrolyte composition. Current collectors are likely the same thickness as before, otherwise that would have also improved the energy density.
@Aku6Soku1Zan
@Aku6Soku1Zan 3 ай бұрын
Based Jordan
@avgjoe5969
@avgjoe5969 3 ай бұрын
Very nice detail. Hoping, in addition to the dry process on both sides (significant cost reduction), they add silicon and bring the energy density to (finally) 300wh/kg or more. This will finally allow "not model 2", Cybertruck full production, Semi, Roadster products to be shipped at proper scale (Cybertruck is in no way there and won't be at this price point with current batteries). We will see where it falls. Really need to see this battery take up in massive scale (at least 10k mixed cars per week).
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Definitely!
@Lukas-s4v
@Lukas-s4v 3 ай бұрын
Extremely good video. Could you make a video, that deals with 46xx derivates. For example the 4695, BMW wants to use and how it compares to the 4680. That would be awesome.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Quick summary: If you make the can too long you run into cycle life issues. Better to just use a can that doesn't require a taller pack and make it more energy dense
@bowesterlund3719
@bowesterlund3719 3 ай бұрын
Why cycle life issues with a taller can? More heat?
@CupidinColorado
@CupidinColorado 3 ай бұрын
Quiz on Friday……….
@ThWiedermann
@ThWiedermann 3 ай бұрын
Great video as usual! Is the type of graphite in the Anode not mentioned because it’s not known? Was hoping to get an inside after there been several different opinions out there on what Tesla is using in their 4680 ✌️
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I continued to dig on that and swap emails back and forth to arrive at a conclusive answer As far as I can tell, our original assessment of the generation one cell was correct The test that we did 'looked through' the sample, which would have revealed any natural graphite, IMO I decided not to test the graphite for the generation 2 cell That's because it provides no additional value from the perspective of a Tesla shareholder. It's an interesting thought exercise, but Tesla has a lot of options to ensure graphite supply. And, I don't think it really provides value for graphite investors. It's a red herring to focus on what type of graphite one company is using in one battery cell. In my view, it's more important to focus on whether a graphite manufacturer can get qualified and hit the price points that manufacturers need That's because synthetic and natural are so interchangeable and have such similar qualities.
@robertide5182
@robertide5182 3 ай бұрын
Updated charge curve for the Cybertruck already came out a couple months ago. Also would V4 really help existing trucks? The truck doesn’t stay at 250 for too long so it doesn’t seem to be largely bottlenecked by the supercharger.
@patriksteffan2060
@patriksteffan2060 3 ай бұрын
I thought so too. OUt of Spec already was trying to check how the update perform but they had some problems (don't remember what problems) Can you check @thelimitingfactor ?
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Cool! Glad to hear that. I it would help a bit. We're talking neck and neck charging speed foor these vehicles, so anything to give people that satisfaction. 😁
@robertide5182
@robertide5182 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactoryup just wanted to throw in some more info from an owner. And yeah people using an 800V CCS adapter or the few V4 stalls Tesla is apparently testing higher amperage on have shown there are some increase. Every little bit counts.
@MrAjgreenfeld
@MrAjgreenfeld 24 күн бұрын
Fantastic video as always! After Battery Day, I was under the impression the DBE process would improve energy density, and if I recall correctly, would have an impact on charging speed (though I may be mistaken). Do you have a sense of how/if the DBE cathode will impact energy density and charging speed? If so, when do you think we would see these gains?
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 23 күн бұрын
Correct! It's already improved the energy density via the thicker cathode. That's part of the reason it's able to match cells that contain silicon even though it contains none. Charging speed is more of a product decision. They could boost charging speed tomorrow if they chose to, but they're prioritizing cost and energy density.
@MrAjgreenfeld
@MrAjgreenfeld 23 күн бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor I see. Do you think there are any more gains to be had with energy density via DBE or is this it? (Not that a cell with a carbon anode matching the density of a cell with a bit of silicon isn't impressive.)
@alexhare3240
@alexhare3240 3 ай бұрын
Thanks again Jordan. Were you able to determine if the anode was synthetic or natural graphite? If not what do you suspect it is?
@chokobokomokokoko
@chokobokomokokoko 3 ай бұрын
Isn't the dry cathode going to further improve energy density (besides the manufacturing/cost advancements)? Thanks for the great video!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
The dry electrode is just a coating process. But, it will help facilitate further improvements due to better cohesion and adhesion and less reactivity 🤠 And sure thing!
@chokobokomokokoko
@chokobokomokokoko 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor Isn't the wet process using some non-active material which is adding a few % to the total weight, which can be spared with the dry one? Or after the drying part of the wet process, there is 0 added material?
@davidwilkie9551
@davidwilkie9551 2 ай бұрын
Why is this holographic positioning nucleation like battery chemistry? Be-cause-effect self-defining instantaneous differentiates of potential positioning thermodynamical virtual work in Newtonian laws of motion, if they are looked at as relative-timing ratio-rates of log-antilog prime-cofactor frequency density-intensity interference positioning-location condensation modulation, are just a different aspect-version of the Singularity-point Centre of Time. Shirley and students need a crossover consultation with the Institute of Art and Ideas.., at MIT and Caltech etc. They probably have.
@robkeshav800
@robkeshav800 3 ай бұрын
Great video as always. If Tesla is able to master the dry cathode process will Panasonic and other battery manufacturers follow suit, soon? My guess is that Panasonic might make 4680 cells in their DeSoto, KS plant if there is demand from Tesla and other EV manufacturers.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks man! They are going to follow suit but it's probably going to be about 5 years
@robkeshav800
@robkeshav800 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor WOW! That is surprising. I thought that once Tesla solved the dry cathode process the other companies would follow suit, quickly like the Bannister's "4 minute mile" barrier.
@antoinepageau8336
@antoinepageau8336 3 ай бұрын
I’d like to hear your thoughts on the recent wave of vehicles in China that are charging at a rate of 500kW and maintaining high rates deep into the charge. They’re going from 5% to 90% in 10 minutes. Close to 6c.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Video coming within the next couple of months
@Nathan-ty6fd
@Nathan-ty6fd 3 ай бұрын
In terms of silicon, Do you believe Tesla will stick with their own TeslaSilicon or go for an external vendor. Paraclete Silicon (which CleanerWatt recently covered) seems pretty similar and it seems like they have done quite a bit of testing at this point and maybe a easier/safer bet given how late, and problem prone the 4680 project has been.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Probably a bulk vendor that can be multi-sourced If not, then internal. They don't want a wedding.
@whitlockbr
@whitlockbr 3 ай бұрын
2 dbe test next!
@robertlynn7624
@robertlynn7624 3 ай бұрын
would be interesting to know the bill of materials cost implications of the design changes. $/kWh decrease etc
@kazedcat
@kazedcat 3 ай бұрын
More nickel = more expensive There is a reduction in the can thickness but that just means you have more space for more cathode and therefore more nickel.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Reducing the cobalt makes it slightly cheaper But we're probably only talking a few bucks Likewise with the thinner cell can Most of the cost reductions are going to be from scaling, because they're still pretty small scale
@lwwells
@lwwells 3 ай бұрын
Perhaps the hardness of silicon prevents it from being compatible with the current dry electrode extrusion process.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I would say it's more that they just have to take their time in introducing new variables The silicon is only a few white percent of a silicon anode, so most of the rest of it is softer carbon
@lwwells
@lwwells 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor even those few wt% of Si can make calendaring composite electrodes to a target porosity a nightmare. I have to imagine it will be the same for dry extrusion.
@LittleSpot
@LittleSpot 3 ай бұрын
And how would 5% increase of silicon be handled with the extreme expansion of the silicon? We will see in the future.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
It's already done in many cells. And, DBE has greater cohesion and adhesion than a wet coating process. It's loadings above 5-10% that are causing issues. Mainly, as I understand it, due to calendar life issues rather than expansion issues.
@phila.6521
@phila.6521 3 ай бұрын
I does contain Manganese. Why would Monroe Live say that it didn't?
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Probably just preliminary results
@SparkySho
@SparkySho 3 ай бұрын
Semi charges @ 900,000 kw Hope hyperloop charges at 3 mw ( in a vacumn ) worldwide transportation anywhere in 369 minutes - BET
@AustinFerguson
@AustinFerguson 3 ай бұрын
Panasonic is my wildcard on top of inhouse production as to what and where the 4680 land in product line up and will Panasonic's upcoming production cell be based on "Tesla" formulation and production standard? Not sure anyone has the answer on this to be totally fair. It could also enable new vehicle trims by end of 2025/Early 2026. Good video Jordan and thank you !
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
You're most welcome! And that is correct, Panasonic's 4680 is still a black box I'll be interested to see what they come up with
@georgepelton5645
@georgepelton5645 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor Panasonic did reveal that they plan to use a 5 tab design, instead of Tesla's "tab less" cell design. IIRC that was when they announced they would produce 4680 format cells.
@DavidMG99
@DavidMG99 3 ай бұрын
👍👍
@klauszinser
@klauszinser 3 ай бұрын
So there have been no voltage/capacity measurements on the cell?
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
No measurements from UC San Diego However, as I covered in the last video, Munro provided their energy density results, and I was able to confirm their testing was the same as UC San Diego's
@futuresmkt
@futuresmkt 3 ай бұрын
I'm really confused. I thought a fundamental value proposition of Tesla was, FAR(~T4680), superior battery cost/effectiveness. Why are there close competitors?
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Because context
@andrewtancock-x3d
@andrewtancock-x3d 3 ай бұрын
"Pack of structural batteries" more accurate than "Structural battery pack"
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Depends on the pack
@4literv6
@4literv6 3 ай бұрын
So the gen2 cybercell is summery is exactly where elon said it should be back in August of 2022. When he drew&Zach all said the 4680 program was on a 6 year timeline. He said to end 2022 it's goal was to be cost competitive with any other cells(since then he confirmed through 2023 it was. Due to a drop off in Chinese cell demand&cell materials coming back to earth. It was more per kwh in early 2024. But it should correct to below competitors cell cost per kwh to end 2024. 👍🏻 Then he said the goal was to be as good as any competitors cell. Multiple tear downs done by you&munro proved throughout 2022. That the world's first 4680 equipped model Y awd ev with the structural pack&dual castings. Did in fact at the pack level nearly match Panasonic in energy density. Then to end 2023 when the ct launched he said it's goal was to beat the competitors cells in pack level energy density. And the ct pack does in fact beat rivian and gms pack's. Not to mention even on at 35s the ct is more efficient than it's competitors! But this is a known tesla advantage getting better range per kwh of pack capacity. Also multiple ct on 800+v chargers have hit as high as 327kw. Matching or beating the best of the ultium gm truck's. Getting 80+miles back in 1 such test earlier this year in just 8mins of charging! So tesla and the 4680 cell program for being less than 50 months old is insanely successful by any metric measurable vs the competition. As elon said our cell suppliers all they do is build cells for decade's and decades! Imagine where tesla will be in a decade of cell manufacturing. Now elon get going on semi solid state cells and solid state cells buddy! Before that gov energy efficiency commission position opens up.😀👍🏻
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I'd only add that solid state is a bad direction to go. It's fundamentally more expensive (as in a first principles physics level). Great for aerospace though and for manufacturers looking for a gimmicky hook 😁
@rogerstarkey5390
@rogerstarkey5390 3 ай бұрын
@4literv6 You're assuming that "efficiency commission" will happen? It could, and should be a Bi-Partisan goal and would be great if the next President makes best use of her (😉) "Resources", putting aside previous "Tensions" because .... "Better Together". Pragmatism on all sides would be beneficial? Correct?
@4literv6
@4literv6 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor hard disagree there man. That nio welion semi solid state pack of 150kwhs that fits in all the current nio model's and weighs just 44# more than the catl nmc 100kwh pack in the same case is proof. That it is imo the direction we should be heading full speed! And ALL the major Chinese cell oems are now going ALL in on solid state cells. Claiming mass production will happen by 2027-2028. Lfmp,lfp, m3p chemistry and maybe even sodium for all the cheap lower and some mid spec trim evs+bess sure. But then semi solid state&full solid state cells for everything above the mid spec evs. Imagine a ct solid state pack with 200+kwhs that weighs the same svelte 1480# as the current 123kwh pack? Charges 200+miles in 10-15mins on 350+kw 800v chargers. Or a plaid+with 120kwhs for 500 miles of range and shaves 350# off. Or a model 3 with 80+kwhs in solid state cells that also loses 300#😁👍🏻
@mastergool
@mastergool 2 ай бұрын
One Cybertruck in Europe has been caught charging at more than 400kwh
@johnlabernik4599
@johnlabernik4599 3 ай бұрын
“Gain a significant lead on the rest of the battery industry in the next 2 years” if true this is huge. Tesla energy will be bigger than the car business.
@sender5804
@sender5804 3 ай бұрын
charging speed looks at the wrong metric. you should look at kWh per minute if analysing batteries.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
yeah, everyone has a favorite metric 😁 None are perfect, so we have many
@sender5804
@sender5804 3 ай бұрын
@@thelimitingfactor why would you take into account vehicles weight, efficiency etc when strictly analysing battery tech? makes no sense unless
@kevin42
@kevin42 3 ай бұрын
Not electronic, but ohmic resistance :)
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I simplified to tease out the difference between ionic resistance and resistance to electrons for the average Joe
@WentzCraft
@WentzCraft 3 ай бұрын
Time to delete the can! "the best part is no part"! The high density foam fill should suffice for structure and protection as well as giving a little spring to expansion. Then delete the excessive cooling lines with center cooling of each cell. To do this increase the void in the middle with a tube that is a thermally conductive, electrical insulator. I don't know what the best material would be examples could be aluminum nitrite, beryllium oxide, man-made diamond, but I'm sure something could be made cost effective eventually. Deleting these two parts should drastically improve thermal characteristics, and could have a non-zero weight penalty benefit. Jordan you are the best part of KZbin! I'm sorry I'm poor and don't support your patreon...
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
I appreciate the well-considered comment, and all good!... We're in lean times
@TroyFrank-h1k
@TroyFrank-h1k 2 ай бұрын
Remember that 4680 is part of structural battery pack. I doubt they can take the cell walls out and still maintain the structural strength needed for the pack/car.
@WentzCraft
@WentzCraft 2 ай бұрын
@@TroyFrank-h1k I would have tended to agree with you but I did a small experiment with spray foam and a circular honeycomb pattern with voids representing cells and a panel top and bottom. I was shocked at the results. The deviation under torsion was almost identical to an entirely foam-filled section. There are countless flaws with what I did given the scale and accuracy an actual engineer would require but the results were worth looking into further. I think manufacturing, transportation, and packaging would be much more difficult without the cell can.
@johannesdolch
@johannesdolch 3 ай бұрын
Did you just hand over a Cybercell to the Chinese? (jk)
@peterchung2024
@peterchung2024 3 ай бұрын
Probably need to use X instead of Twitter
@science939
@science939 3 ай бұрын
Cool less cobalt equals battery degradation but the battery cheaper to produce
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
No, it doesn't mean more degradation if it's been structured correctly. That was debunked about 5 years ago by Jeff Dahn.
@crimsondecade7420
@crimsondecade7420 3 ай бұрын
The 4680 path was initially the correct move for Tesla but it is taking much longer to get where they want to be. Maybe in a couple years we will have something similar to what was promised on Battery Day but as you mentioned , by the time that happens where will the rest of the industry be? I am not likely to buy a Tesla Vechicle with a 4680 until it is proven better then a 2170.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Taking longer, but also lower priority because there's currently a battery glut. There will be no real difference for customers between the 2170 and 4680 That's because you take the raw cells as a commodity and design the pack and vehicle to the requirements of the use case, not the other way around
@rsamd
@rsamd 3 ай бұрын
What about power of 4680. Cybertruck has only 845hp dispite 123kwh battery pack. thats lame.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
The power isn't battery pack limited It's motor limited
@wpap5863
@wpap5863 3 ай бұрын
It's battery limited. Check out TM3 performance specs, US vs. Europe.
@bobkat1663
@bobkat1663 3 ай бұрын
What is so odd, is battery tech. has been around for 170 years?? Advancements were suppressed, or just not worked on, they wanted you to buy a battery often, no matter what it was for....I am not an electric car fan at all, I love my diesel truck, and tractors., however Elon/Tesla are up to full production , and deserve time to let the battery tech. to catch up to where it is supposed to be; electric machines have useful places in our modern era. Take L.A. for example, The Spanish explorers were told by the indians not to go down there, as the air is stale, so what does the U.S. do? We build the second largest city, and the largest county in the U.S. in that stale air, dead valley. So to me, if you live in L.A. I think an Electric car is a great idea, but you going to have to start building power plants, some good coal burning , natural gas, gen. sets, it is long over due. So if anyone can do it, it will be Elon and Tesla. Well done and Great show.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Thanks man!
@gareth5000
@gareth5000 3 ай бұрын
This is akin to industrial espianage, just like those drone pilots. Elon is very good natured about it:) Imagine if someone tried it with Apple or any of Bezos's companies...
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
🐱‍👤😁
@CodyDavis91
@CodyDavis91 3 ай бұрын
𝕏
@BillSmith-fx7xx
@BillSmith-fx7xx 3 ай бұрын
Any chance we will see any significant change in battery density in my lifetime ! Unless we can get 50% improvement from here, in the next 5 years, this train is barely able to get out of the station. Frustrating.
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Oh, there's batteries with 50% or double the energy density of current batteries out there, they're just expensive These batteries have limited energy density because that's not their primary focus Automotive batteries are unique because they have to be good at everything And currently, automotive batteries are good enough to mostly transition the world to EVs That is, the technology is ahead of the scale already That's why Tesla is so focused on scale
@BillSmith-fx7xx
@BillSmith-fx7xx 3 ай бұрын
Thank you for a good answer & explaination. I really appreciate it ! But I can still hope, can't I ? It just seems that from a layman's viewpoint, advancements have slowed down quite a bit. Having said that, I guess my focus is very narrow, range & charging speed, compared to a battery engineer that has so many other criteria that I take for granted. Thanks again !
@JjJj-xk2yo
@JjJj-xk2yo 3 ай бұрын
Only 330 wh/kg? Other EV uses solid battery, which has 500 wh/kg. Oh my god!
@waynerussell6401
@waynerussell6401 3 ай бұрын
NOPE!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
Yeah, you can put a 1000 Wh/kg battery in a vehicle. But it would cost a lot and have terrible cycle life.
@robanderson9565
@robanderson9565 3 ай бұрын
Too bad with all the misinformation/lies you spread it now makes your work questionable
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
🤣 Ah yes, the old blank assertion Debate me on X if you have a strong case about a particular topic Well, unless I've blocked you, which I often do for when people use circular or ad hominem arguments
@antonio_fosnjar
@antonio_fosnjar 3 ай бұрын
Tesla has nothing on Toyotas solid state battery. You will all see when they launch it next year with 10000Wh/kg and dominate and sell 10mil EVs
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
😂 You had me for a second
@Storm3451
@Storm3451 3 ай бұрын
disapointing how slow battery tech moves ... EVs will remain a niche until a really breakthrough in energy density happens
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
The issue with this logic is that it's... not true Norway is already 90%+ EVs. Scaling just takes time.
@vaclavmatousek3007
@vaclavmatousek3007 3 ай бұрын
You do not need much more than 5 to 7% improvement annually and enough patience
@Storm3451
@Storm3451 3 ай бұрын
@@vaclavmatousek3007 I dont see any progress in years. Tesla fans still rave about the high cobalt batteries from the past since they performed better then the current one. Batterytech appears to be moving backwards.
@Tschacki_Quacki
@Tschacki_Quacki 3 ай бұрын
@@Storm3451 What do you mean? The first gen Model 3 with 75kWh almost had the same range as today's Model 3 with 60kWh. no progress my behind
@TheEvilmooseofdoom
@TheEvilmooseofdoom 3 ай бұрын
@@Storm3451 You don't see progress? That's a you problem. It seems you might not be as informed as you think you are. In fact I'd say you have such a poor grasp it might be a topic that is actually a bit over your head.
@keithdow8327
@keithdow8327 3 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@chavans1687
@chavans1687 3 ай бұрын
Thank you 🎉.
@ejkitchen
@ejkitchen 3 ай бұрын
Thanks!
@thelimitingfactor
@thelimitingfactor 3 ай бұрын
You're most welcome!
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