A Browser is All You Need?

[@TheLinuxCast]

Like Linux content from me? I post a lot over on Mastodon! fosstodon.org/@thelinuxcast

[@kjala_nix]

Hey, what i3 statusbar are you using? Do you now use VivaldiMail?

[@TheLinuxCast]

@@kjala_nix I use polybar

[@vladimir_fomin90]

try Vesktop?

[@PPKNexus]

@@TheLinuxCast Where was the INTRO??

[@tomasruzicka9835]

​@@TheLinuxCast The only web mail that was workable for me was our school outlook. (365 one, not some 2003) Gmail just sucks, you can't even set up filters based on special character, so if your company uses [SOME TAG HERE] for specifying categories of mail, good luck filtering that, you will also filter every email that just mentions that tag, and if that tag is some common word like [github] for automated bot messages and from that same noreply, you'll get an "Github update" in the subject, no bueno.

[@Tall_Order]

Screw the cloud. I want all my stuff local so I don't need internet.

[@Tall_Order]

And yeah yeah yeah, someone else's computer. We get it. lol

[@thingsiplay]

There are Browser Apps that run locally and don't need internet connection at all.

[@Tall_Order]

@@thingsiplay I know this already. One of my other comments talked about how I have Jellyfin installed.

[@张恒-b3i]

Agreed, this is a matter of trust. Never give the power of choice to someone else

[@SirChristoferus]

Speaking of local, I’ve been thinking about setting up a personal intranet in the future with a rather spacious Debian machine. It’d have an Ethernet connection to a secure network, and the directories of the drives would have dedicated local URLs.

[@STONE69_]

Would be cool if Proton had their own Browser, we could just sign in and have excess to all their Apps.

[@nocturnalbreadwinner]

@@STONE69_ what other apps do they have? I just know about mail and their storage platform like gdrive

[@ddman7867]

Maybe you can make your own proton browser with Ferdium

[@gf8ho]

Basically Google chrome without the spyware

[@m12652]

I'm not impressed that they are now forcing duo adverts on paid subscribers... seems they are lowering their standards in their management and UX...

[@sierr1302]

i love this channel. I recently made the swap from windows heathen and this is a big iceberg. most of the time I don't understand enough to engage with most of the content but i watch regardless. thanks!

[@ericv738]

That's what I started doing a couple years ago. Progress is slow it's like learning a new language, but keep at it

[@johanb.7869]

Watch and learn. I did it that way.

[@ZyphenVisuals]

A short note on Plex/Jellyfin in the browser: Usually when using them in a browser, the compatibility (video, audio, subtitles) is all dictated by whatever the browser supports. The native app (for Jellyfin at least) is not JUST the website bundled. It also bundles an MPV, and uses that for the actual media playback, giving waaaaay better compatibility. It's one of those things where if the browser version is working for you great, if you notice some files (H265 etc.) not working then trying the desktop app will likely help.

[@KapitanMokraFaja]

I guess this also applies to plex.

[@iennefaLsh]

My Little Browser Couldn't Be This Qute?!

[@BrianHartman]

I'm not sure if you've looked into this, or if you're interested at all, but Vivaldi does have the ability to theme its workspaces, so you can have separate workspaces in the browser for all of your categories and they'd all get their own themes. Wouldn't help you much if you needed to distinguish between tabs, but it would organize your browsing a bit better. :) One thing I really find useful about Vivaldi is the built-in RSS reader. It's especially good for keeping up on your KZbin subscriptions.

[@TheLinuxCast]

@@BrianHartman WHAT? Excuse me while my life changes.

[@BrianHartman]

@@TheLinuxCast LOL. :) It involves using quick commands. Basically, you set up a quick command that switches to the given workspace and applies the theme of your choice. I don't have it set up right now, but at one point I had five workspaces and a theme on each. This video describes how to do it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6bVgaapbMt1jLM

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

Vivaldi is at least partially closed source and uses Chromium as it's open source component. I would argue that anyone who uses it should do so with a degree of suspicions, as they should with any closed source product. I will not use if for that reason - the only time I will use a closed source product is if there is no viable Open Source alternative.

[@lewisse_8966]

That is such a good observation to point out regarding your usage of native apps and tiling wm's with separate workspaces. I didn't realize how greatly workspaces affected the way I decide between a separate application or simply using the web app version inside a tab on the same browser window.

[@in2webelieve997]

Have you considered installing them as web apps instead of running them as tabs? So they show up as native on you desktop and you can see what's what instead of everything showing up as your browser?

[@Homer1e2]

@@in2webelieve997 I just have my favorites well organized on Edge for this purpose. I'm the kind of guy who doesn't like any icons on my desktop.

[@montechristoJr]

Yes PWA is the way to go if you are using chromium based browsers

[@aztracker1]

That was my first thought and question... I've definitely done that in chrome on Mac, windows and Linux.

[@snygg1993]

There is also usually the option to crop the view port, so that might even solve his "all this chrome" issue without influencing normal browsing.

[@Skelterbane69]

@@montechristoJr We don't do that, here

[@HcgRandon]

I'd be curious if you tried jellyfin. What landed you on plex?

[@brainstormsurge154]

I never used workspaces till I switched to Linux and it was to KDE Plasma. They also have Activities which is basically just having different sessions of workspaces. It's not a real session manager, at least I don't think so, and I haven't felt a need to use it yet but it's certainly a nice tool that is available. I know that session management is being worked on in KDE so I look forward to that once it's properly implemented. You can at least set it up to save your current session and open it if you shutdown or restart but I've found it to be buggy as it's open to copies of web browser windows I've had open. My point is you mentioned that you don't really use workspaces in KDE Plasma and I'm saying they work very well. It's very easy to customize not just the amount but also different ways to look at them such as a large overview as well as change how you navigate between them. Whether through shortcuts like Meta+Arrow or to navigate to a specific one which I like to use Meta+Num1,Num2... You're really missing out if you're not using them.

[@wm5393]

I prefer the gnome’s minimalistic approach and the workstation logic where every app has one thing to do and it does it as I want it to be (mail, calendar, todo, notes, podcast, rss, etc,). With time I got used to know when to open an app on which workstation it belongs.

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

You get that with command line (TUI) apps also and without the bloated eye candy of modern GNOME. For me, GNOME died after GNOME 2 and good riddance to it.

[@lycelia3926]

have you tried downloading some of them as pwas? still a web-app but some of them are set to open in minimal-ui mode (several varieties). sort of an in-between for webapps and native.

[@Homer1e2]

I like using three different browsers for different purposes and I rarely use any other programs.

[@JessicaFEREM]

Hyprland has had a bunch of problems with electron apps it's not just you. I've had problems with typing in vesktop causing the window to glitch out. Works fine in KDE plasma.

[@eps-nx8zg]

regarding the web apps not having as much space because of the tab bar, you can just fullscreen the browser window and it will hide the tab bar until you mouseover it.

[@bvd_vlvd]

Maybe put your tabs on the side? I really like that extra bit of space I get from moving them. So my horizontal lines taking up space are the GNOME top bar and the address bar, with tabs on the left and sidebar on the right, including the email, calendar and todo toolbars. Surprised you're not using those. It's what makes Vivaldi Vivaldi for me

[@KeyJayHD]

I have most of my applications in Web App/PWA form vs Native. For one, having browser Zoom feature is handy for apps that dont do proper resolution scaling, or have very minimal scale functions on their native app.

[@GlobalGaming101]

I think web apps can help with cross compatibility. That's being said, I do enjoy reading all my emails through a real email client.

[@garyjonjon]

No, a browser is all YOU need!

[@samsawesomeminecraft]

I dislike electron apps because they can't be affected by my browser extensions which makes it harder to adblock or control video playback or take scroll-screenshots

[@bvd_vlvd]

Yeah, PWA can do all that and it's the same thing anyway most of the time

[@BytebroUK]

Started typing this then opened a new tab and lost it(!), but... you mentioned Mastodon. Like a lot of people I guess, I tried the 'official' Mastodon app and Tusky and so on, but I keep coming back to the default WebUI on both laptop and phone. I just like the layout and it works for me. On the laptop I have the 'Advanced Web Interface' enabled and it's great with the 3 columns - I have "Home", "Notifications" and "Getting Started" and I can go where I want from there. On the phone there just seems to be less wasted space and/or cruft so it works there as well. I guess we're all different!

[@aztracker1]

Doesn't Vivaldi support desktop browser apps? With chrome I have, for example Gmail as a dedicated browser window/instance. I've done similar for Discord and a few other sites.

[@TheLinuxCast]

Yeah it does. But I find it easier to manage in a tab.

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

I would normally question anyone using partially closed-source Vivaldi, but as you have already admitted to turning your computer into a surveillance device for Google by using Chrome, then whether or not you also use Vivaldi is not really relevant any more.

[@jedipadawan7023]

I personally HATE using web apps. I regard anything I do online as public. But I work as a private tutors and I have students and they ONLY use Webapps. Nothing else. Many are required by their schools to own really expensive Apple Macs but are actually FORBIDDEN to use any offline apps for their work. They are REQUIRED to use Google apps and 'Canva.' Almost all my students could be handed Chromebooks. As I say, I personally loathe online everything but there is no hiding the fact that is now the world ALREADY is! Of course, it does mean the objections that Linux is not for the common man rather fall to the ground since people are not booting Windows and MacOS mainly as "google boxes." Hey, I ask people, not the students, what they use their laptops for and they say "Doing Google." We live a in google world now.

[@STONE69_]

Google Apps and Canva are online Apps. You said they are forbidden

[@jedipadawan7023]

@@STONE69_ You misread. I have mild flu so I understand that. I have mild fever in the brain - it's dangerous heat out here right now, Govt health warnings! But I typed 'offline.'

[@STONE69_]

@@jedipadawan7023 nicely edited clown boy!!

[@purpledragon88]

He can "see sounds". Don't you all get it now? He's Matt "Murdock"! Lawyer in the morning, youtuber in the afternoon, and secret vigilante fighting crime in the night.

[@TheLinuxCast]

@@purpledragon88 lol. I love that movie.

[@purpledragon88]

​@@TheLinuxCast total classic, without a doubt : )

[@MichaelWilliams-lr4mb]

I'm not sure about Vivaldi. I'm using the Zen browser, and I can hide the tabs, address bar, etc, and mouse over the top or side when I need one of them . (top for the address bar, left side for my tabs). So I don't see any of the chrome until I mouse of the area where I would have it. It stays out of the way until I need it. I love it.

[@Homer1e2]

@@MichaelWilliams-lr4mb that sounds pretty good. On Vivaldi you can hide the address bar and it will show a reduções version of It only when you open a new tab.

[@alphaclusters4537]

It would be great to have those on Vivaldi officially. I am still waiting for new stable CSS code to auto hide those stuffs.

[@TrustJesusToday]

Zen is the best fork of Firefox. Very good.

[@alphaclusters4537]

@@TrustJesusToday what about Floorp? Zen is still in Alpha I think, but Floorp has a smaller team and only go as a hobby project afaik. I can't find much comparison between them. Coming from Vivaldi I very want to know which is better.

[@AngTrg]

​@@alphaclusters4537imo zen is better, consumes less resources, faster, much much better UI and UX

[@drwigglechin]

Browser apps are why it's easier to recommend linux nowadays

[@BradleyBrown]

I have to agree. When I reimaged my work laptop, I didn't install anything but Chrome and Notepad++. Every application is web based. Now I'm thinking, why not Linux?

[@KeyJayHD]

Careful. Double check that your laptop can do proper power management and exposes proper power states with different OS other than Windows, else you're going to be stuck in a situation where suspend is not actually suspend, and the fans keep spinning untill your battery depletes....I know because this has happened to me.

[@BradleyBrown]

@@KeyJayHD Good to know! Suspend and even shutdown has been a mixed bag on my personal equipment, depending on the distro. The work PC is a Dell Latitude 5540, so hopefully! 🤞

[@terrydaktyllus1320]

Oh dear... you installed Chrome... at least Google sends their thanks into turning your computer into a device to surveil you with. (Why won't people learn? Why do I have to care more about their privacy than they do?)

[@afreeman379]

My problem with listening to music on a web app is that if for example I play a video on another tab I lose the media controls for the music at DE level (it's replaced by the video). I'm using Plasma and Chromium only exposes media controls on the Plasma panel for the last tab playing something. I don't remember if I had that issue with playerctl. It's infuriating because I even installed the website as an app (PWA) and launch it directly from Plasma, but media controls are completely retarded and mixed with the browser ones.

[@helidrones]

Browser application work great as long as you are hosting them yourself.

[@huljaxful]

I think the moral of the story is that you need to address your hoarding issues, my boy. They are the recurring thing at this point.

[@steffenrumpel2784]

I'm not sure if I'd ever be willing to accept the plethora of risks (e.g. a vendor lock-in) that come with the extensive use of server-based web applications.

[@Juiceboxmakes]

Agreed. This kinda goes againts the whole linux trend as of late i feel

[@MonVonalot]

Does my own hosted Nextcloud count? Yes, it's in the browser but the server is under my desk.

[@cejannuzi]

I like Plex, too, and use it the way you do.

[@moetocafe]

Doesn't KDE have workspaces? I didn't get that part, why you can't use workspaces. It makes all the good experience on Linux DE, imo. Btw at 11:36 - is that a dog, lower left? :)

[@alphaclusters4537]

Vivaldi does have the potential to become one of the most unique browsers, problem is the developer team is very small compare to most other browser's counterpart. Thousands of feature request and bug trackers while having around 50 people total in all aspects and even less as developer.

[@Tall_Order]

I wish Firefox would move away from proton or photon or whatever it is they use for the UI. The browser tabs aren't even tabs anymore, just boxes that are sometimes hard to see. And the only way to change that is to edit your profile css files. Normal "themes" only change the color of the background. I want the old FF back. And yes I know I can use pale moon, but then I can't use ublock anymore. I suppose the real problem here isn't proton/photon, but the default css used. Clearly since I can edit my css to make things look good, it could have looked good by default. I probably should place the real blame there.

[@joroc]

problem it's a free sh 1t that can't hire graphic designers like linux, gimp and all the rest

[@F_Around_and_find_out]

Imma make it short and to the point: For personal usage, offline is king, desktop app with everything needed to run locally is the way. For teams and sharing and youtube, that's when the internet steps in. The internet is as fragile as glass, so for the love of god do not make internet your biggest dependency when you make an app.

[@4X6GP]

I feel like I'm giving up my autonomy when I use webapps. I prefer to control the apps I use. Not to mention the privacy issues.

[@Leahi84]

I don't like web apps at all. Much prefer dedicated applications. Having my browser open all the time just takes up too many resources.

[@esra_erimez]

Netscape developed a suite of server software, known as SuiteSpot. Web based apps was their vision for the future until Microsoft tied IE deeply into Windows

[@danmac_au]

I use Teams in Edge on Linux as a PWA app for my work stuff. The browser chrome stuff is the reason I wish non-chrome browsers supported PWAs better. Installing a webpage as an app that gets rid of the extra crap but still performs better than an electron app. There is Firefox-PWA but I don't think Vivaldi has anything comparable

[@alphaclusters4537]

Vivaldi does have the option to install PWA tho, problem is you have to right click instead of a button on address bar. I have not tried PWA in there for a long time since it was kinda broken, I think I will try again after seeing your comment.

[@yurimodin7333]

what is pwa?

[@alphaclusters4537]

@@yurimodin7333 progressive web app, you can google it for more information

[@darthkielbasa]

I was a rabidly vocal and loyal Brave user until they dropped pwa as the lord intended. Enter Vivaldi. Great PWA implementation AND tiling tabs. I wish Brave would bring back legacy “create shortcut, open as window” PWA but it is not to be. Vivaldi nails PWA for email, discord, mastodon, twixxer, proton and a few others. PWA are great for the homelab dashboard, too.

[@montechristoJr]

Installing PWA still exist in brave, if the developers implemented it in their web app. The option 'Create shortcut open as window' (for apps that didn't have PWA ) have disappeared in latest update but can be activated by changing a flag. Not sure if it was a mistake or they did it on purpose.

[@Prophet6000]

I finally gave Vivaldi a chance after watching your videos it is good.

[@leprechaunsh3938]

i have the same hyprland bug with three monitors. Its not just electron tho, android studio is affectived by this bug, and it wont get mouse inputs for any monitor except my main monitor

[@krunkle5136]

Electron apps are not native. Also desktop environments have workspaces also, but i can't attest to the efficient handling of workspaces in WMs because i don't use them.

[@friarlawless]

I read the title card as "Web apps, WTF?" Haha.

[@heatherhutchinson3625]

The desktop apps are very efficient on resources, integrate better with system, and also does not rely on Chromium dominance. GTK and KDE apps are powerful, elegant, and fast! There would be almost no app that I prefer the web version compared to the desktop version were they made of similar quality. Unfortunately web apps are developed better these days because they are easier to develop and maintain due to abundant of tools and frameworks available for developers, so there is little incentive for developers to invest in desktop apps even though desktop apps have benefits for users.

[@dominicus9891]

2:51 Fellow Bones fan, I see...

[@itildude]

To this day, even though they are getting better, I don't like web apps. Give me a real app / client.

[@JohnSmith-lc1ml]

I've only used webmail it sucks but i've never had a better experience with native clients. I guess im used to only checkin email whenim in the browser

[@gerydony6531]

Might be a great time to reconsider Emacs 😄

[@TheTastefulThickness]

You can use the application Ear Trumpet to deal with sounds you prefer to hear vs ones you don't prefer to hear.

[@averagetechnologyenojyer]

I would like local first and umm i wish webapps were lighter on the system

[@HalfAsleepSam]

web nvim when

[@tylerdean980]

Service as a software substitute

[@SecretlySeven]

Wayland almost killed my Linux journey. Once I got away from that I've honestly had no further issues.

[@TrustJesusToday]

Hyprland and pyprland are helpful in the reduction of clutter improving workflow. Zen browser is perfect for... browsing. Native apps for me (except for mail... thunderbird is awful.)

[@ArchieOnLinux]

You need to fundamentally reconsider your approach to technology. There are things you know, and many things you do not know. As a sophisticated Windows 11 Pro user, I encourage you to try Windows 11 Pro.

[@AiMimi-Lunix]

@@ArchieOnLinux lies and slander, obviously everyone needs to use Win11 Home edition because all the homies use it.

[@blahaj___]

the OS no long matters

[@lewisse_8966]

The OS is just a bootloader for the browser 🤣

[@STONE69_]

A file system does matter, a start menu matters, native Apps do matter. If thats the case for you just get Cloud Computing then, and store everything in the cloud.

[@bvd_vlvd]

Finally! I can be a mega elitist and switch to NetBSD!

[@xgui4-studios]

i use firefox , and will continue using it,, i dont want closed source software when i can use foss software and i dont want a bloated browser , but that my personal opinion

[@reece2080]

always native apps when possible for me

[@andreaugaragao]

I just use qutebrowser with status and tabs disabled.

[@sjones72751]

Yes, make a video of you current opinion in x vs wayland. Personally, I've been bouncing back and forth and honestly, they both suck...

[@John7No]

don't like the PWA and electron apps. integration with the OS is not there. Notifications are wonky. most of them are total crap performance wise and devs are just using templates to create them which means there is no personality . plus they are in a browser window with all the pros and cons that comes with, and yes there are only cons. they do work for some cases but it is not the majority . no thank you

[@Priimerra]

Mint's web app maker is amazing

[@patpopov]

Firefox profiles with custom CSS are amazing too.

[@bvd_vlvd]

Hell yeah, PWAs but on steroids. I have two different KZbin accounts and I'm watching a tutorial playlist so having them all sandboxed is amazing. I don't get to keep history on one of channels and I don't ever have to switch accounts. Same with other social media where I have multiple profiles

[@uuu12343]

I am now at the stage where I prefer CLI + Docker & Webapps for everything over GUI applications, which is alittle sad because I developed GUI applications for a good 6 or so years before going to CLI

[@aztracker1]

Funny, I started with CLI but spent the last 28 years making web based apps (and related backend)

[@anthonybeyond]

@uuu12345....What was the last straw: GTK+ or qt?

[@esra_erimez]

I use Evolution for email

[@STONE69_]

I use Betterbird, its the better Bird LOL

[@franklin_johnson01]

@@esra_erimez you use gnome?

[@code8986]

It's a little funny that you're announcing (to us) your move away from native apps on Native American (aka Indigenous Peoples) Day! 😄

[@skulver]

My Vivaldi recently crashed and lost all my tabs, even all workspace tabs, left the workspaces but with zero tabs each. Literal years of organisation gone in an instant. Do not trust it, back up your tabs. I'm back to Firefox for now, wiping all my data is kind of a deal breaker for any product.

[@TheLinuxCast]

Since I switched to the flatpak version, I've had no issues

[@Homer1e2]

Can you not save It by creating an account like on Edge?

[@sentinel9651]

Happened to me twice. I even lost all my saved sessions. I've since enabled sync so maybe it will act as a sort of backup.

[@skulver]

@@Homer1e2 I had an online account, to which it very helpfully synced my now totally empty tabs immediately upon startup after the crash.

[@Homer1e2]

@@skulver oh. 😅

[@TechnoMinded-qp5in]

Native is the way to go Matt now someone needs to tell the developer of Project 64 HD emulator to make it work on Linux natively which would permanently kill Windows.

[@yurimodin7333]

check out sm64......long story regarding a breakthrough they made but you can now compile native binary windows or linux games from n64 roms.

[@someone01233]

Emacs

[@steeltormentors]

there's also security consideration when using webapps, especially for services that is not from credible sources. By opening them in a browser, it's safer as it is sandboxed. While installing native apps especially in mobile phones, sometimes the permission requests does not make any sense. My rule of thumb would be: installing native apps is okay with credible sources or if the permission requests makes sense. Other than that, webapp it is!

[@chriscrouse3918]

Sir, you're never going to find a desktop that does everything perfectly for you in Linux. Maybe just stick with Windows or MacOS and get used to being disappointed all the time, but with things that work :p

[@Danielo515]

Web apps have been better for a long time. However, app monopolies wants control (google, apple) so they have been trying to kill them