Driving and Firing - The Art of Firing

[@pauljw7697]

I'd love to buy that man a beer. Then sit & listen to his stories & knowledge of his years in steam. He is a fine example of what I was told several times in my youth "anyone who loves their job will never work a day in their life." It's great to listen to an artist who made steam his livelihood. A great presentation. Thank you for posting it.

[@MasterMoyle]

Iv had the experience of doing some firing work before on industrial tank engines at Ribble. It is a fun experience but would have been tough as hell in steam days.

[@trackedandtested5848]

@@MasterMoyle same here, at the Ribble too

[@MrMoggyman]

Fantastic Clive. So much experience. As you note it takes time to learn to fire. This is an art that is learned gradually and certainly not over night. Normally fifteen years on the footplate after being passed out as a cleaner to fire all of the different classes of locomotive, and in particular to learn the little peccadillos of each locomotive within the same class as they all liked different ways of firing to produce steam well. And to understand that The Flying Scotsman and Galtee More are both A3 locomotives. But The Flying Scotsman has been described as an absolute 'pig' to fire as it is not a naturally firing engine, whilst Galtee More only needed to see the shovel to fire well. One thing to look at is the smoke coming out of the stack. When it turns clear and slightly grey she needs more coal. Little but often was the rule on LMS and LNER, with coal lumps not bigger than the fist. Black smoke means poor firing, as the carbons are not being burned off efficiently, and the engineman would tell you. You could get put on report for poor firing. Swinging the shovel correctly, accurate coal placement, looking for holes in the fire, knowing the state of the fire and dealing with clinkers, and knowing the gradients in the road were important for good firing, as was maintaining the water level in the boiler via the injector, to have steam at hand to deal with the situation as you travelled the road. The driver was important too. A whole fire could pass through the tubes and end up blowing out of the stack dependent upon how aggressive the driver was with the regulator. If you had a bad or aggressive driver, you had a hard job as a fireman. After your fifteen year stint you were examined to become a driver, and in so doing became a passed out fireman. After that a regular driver. Once a driver you had to sign for all the routes you knew, as the signaling along each route was important and you had to know each route like the back of your hand. Yes, building up the back end of the fire BUT not when you are in or about to enter an enclosed station like York. Doing that will make smoke in an enclosed station that will result in the stationmaster giving you hell! My uncle had to go to York to teach the firemen on The North Yorkshire Railway that. They were causing all kinds of problems at York with smoke in the station. It is important to obtain a good coal spread as you mentioned, as holes in the fire can lead to the air passing through them cooling the fire resulting in reduced steam pressure. Too much coal was just as bad as it would damp down the fire again leading to reduced steam pressure. However, poor coal could be a problem too generating high levels of ash leading to poor fires despite good firing, and that became more of a problem on BR towards the end of steam. The dart too sometimes used for unblocking a fouled boiler fire tube. Yup, if the fireman does not watch the water level and operate the injectors, then at the top of a grade the firebox head will be exposed and the fusible links will melt blowing steam into the firebox, which in turn will blow the fire out onto the footplate. Not a good footplate experience.......then being towed back to the shed.......and oh dear.......an explanation to the shed superintendent required for negligence! On top of this you had to know the Railway Rule Book like the back of your hand too, and each year it was updated. You would be regularly tested on this too. My uncle would argue with you too Clive that in the Winter on the footplate of a steamer in snow or rain your front roasted but your back froze. When you consider that locomotive enginemen were out in all weathers day and night, it is no wonder that many died in their mid 50's. On the none stop A4 Pacific services to Edinburgh from Kings Cross Clive there was a tunnel through the locomotive tender that allowed crews to change over. The first few compartments of the lead coach was where the crews rested before and after their turn. The expresses from Euston to Glasgow were generally never none stop and there was normally a crew change over at Crewe or sometimes Carlisle. Who am I to talk? The grandson of two grand fathers with 45 years each on GCR/LNER/BR steam locomotives, and an uncle who became a senior locomotive instructor at BR having started on LNER on steam as a cleaner rising to driving 4000 Kestrel, the most powerful diesel locomotive on BR at that time. Walked under her as a lad in the engine shed at Shirebrook in 1967. Three other uncles firemen on LNER/BR. Plus another uncle a top link driver on the Princess Coronation Class (PCC) expresses from Euston to Glasgow along the West Coast Mainline route. He could remember firing the PCC loco's back in the 1930's when they had full streamlining. In 1964 he was in the twilight of his career and not far from retirement, but his knowledge was encyclopedic having driven and fired most of the PCC, Royal Scott, Patriot and Jubilee class locomotives. He could even remember the failures and repair dates of individual locomotives. His hate was the Princess Royal Class loco's.....poor firers....in fact he would have preferred a Black 5 to a PRC.....he told me that as a lad. Like you Clive one uncle travelled around and tried out other classes of locomotives in other regions when it all became BR. These were the so called 'mutual exchange' programs which under BR allowed drivers of the former regional companies (SR/LNER/LMS/GWR) to gain experience on other regions locomotives. My uncle had a great time doing this just like you. A great deal of the above based on what my ancestors taught me, because that is what I was destined to do.....become a railway locomotive engineman. Like you Clive, steam was and still is in my blood. We lived next to a railway station, and the coal trains were everywhere every day. I was set up for Crewe as a cleaner by my uncle, lodgings and all when I grew old enough. But I was too young. By 1967 all the steam locomotives had gone and diesels never attracted me enough. But one thing I will say Clive. All the railway men that I knew never really regarded their roles as just a job. For these men the railway and the locomotives were a way of life. They lived for this work. And although they cussed at nights and poor cold weather they stuck with it because of the love of it. The pay was never sparkling. In fact the joke was that the pay packet was the lightest thing on the railway. But these men loved the railway and lived for it. I knew and felt that from all the railway men, drivers and firemen alike that I have known. This was a creed of men different from the norm. I feel that with you too Clive. You could be my mentor any day. I would come with my grandfathers BR engraved gold 45 year long service Smiths gold watch to prove my linage.

[@johngallagher6047]

Fascinating stuff. So sad to hear of Clive's passing, no doubt his daughters will carry on in his memory. From someone whose interest is aviation this excellent series of videos has been a fascinating and informative revelation of the art and science of driving a steam locomotive.

[@jamesmatthew1903]

This man is a British national treasure.

[@normanfillmore3490]

Lord, what an excellent foreman he would be. Exceedingly competent, willing to teach, able to offer correction without looking down upon the one needing correction. True respect is earned.

[@johnmiller5664]

A true Man of Steam, Knows his machine inside and out, A river of knowledge right here, Magnificent

[@adrianrosenlund-hudson8789]

Lovely to see Clive's own children firing and driving, and fantastic to see a well kept BR Standard in action. My favourite steam locomotives. If I hadn't moved abroad, I would be spending my spare time as a volunteer. I wish there was an opportunity to do the same here

[@donlittle929]

a trteasure is this film. It is a great pleasure to listen to and watch this gentleman explain the art of Firing an engine.

[@RaggyAl1971]

I was a fireman for ten years,loved every minute even when things like bad coal tried to ruin your day!

[@patrickspeaight9154]

What za marvellous voice. The quiet descriptive speech enables one to become a mental performer; which takes you back to harder life; one begins to gave an understanding of the mind set, of those who have our lives in their hands. Their modern counterparts gave much to live up to. Patrick, Northamptonshire

[@sykesman2266]

The Bluebell has changed massively since then as despite the fact that a lot of these engines aren't running now there is the extension to East Grinstead. Would like to visit the Bluebell one day.

[@Rosie6857]

Superb video. What a charming and intelligent fellow Clive Groome is - everything explained with crystal clarity. He clearly knows engines like the back of his hand.

[@cobrellie]

What a great video … I envy your daughters that they have such a great teacher ….

[@ClassicProgrammes2868]

Fantastic seeing this on KZbin and brings back a lot of memories.

[@rogercarrell]

Another taste of nostalgia!

[@Drivershell53]

fabulous, informative video, huge thanks for posting

[@MasterMoyle]

Glad to see you enjoyed it.

[@sykesman2266]

Is good to see a programme showing what it was like firing steam locomotives. Never was one of the cleanest jobs as you know your gonna get dirty when you work on steam engines.

[@MasterMoyle]

Whenever I was working on steam engines at the Ribble Steam Railway I would always end up arriving clean and then at the end of the day when going home I would be absolutely filthy, even if the locos were only industrial tank engines. Jobs included cleaning out the smokeboxes, clean the ashpans, washing and polishing the engines, cleaning the tubes (one time the wire brush actually broke inside a tube, I did manage to get it out however by giving it a ruddy hard push) and other maintenance jobs with the guys when fixing locos. Got rewarded for my work on occasions though by getting rides on the footplate & even having a day firing Linda after being invited by the rostered fireman.

[@markeverson5849]

Cleave Mr cleave Clive is one of those fellows that can work all day and beat cleaner at the end of the day than when he came for some reason! I'm the opposite!! and I was noticing that while he was feeding the boiler with coal he never touched anything with his clothing or with his hands.. some guys can paint all day and stay clean! but me I was a barn painter a house painter a contractor, and sometimes the people thought that I was the Helper because I was the one covered with paint from head to toe with my engineer HAT! my Rags hanging out of my pockets, paint brushes hanging from wire hooks from my rear pockets.. it was a big job! I had paint dripping off the eaves of the barN which were white and the barn was red,I generally covered with paint from head to toe.. and then I would clean up but rubbing down with paint thinner much of the time. I worked without a shirt on in the hot summer and I was covered with red oil base Barn paint with white drips all over, I did this for many years.. my truck was a 56 Chevy with a 40-foot aerial ladder on it off of a fire engine.GRAMPA WAS AN STEAM ENGINEAR IN CHIPAWA FALLS WIS!!AREA

[@MistressValkress]

Lets not 'forget' what made Britain GREAT for it's Transport Network- lets look to the future and 'learn' from out mistakes! Let's ALL try to have a safer future in transport! That means - WE ALL need to learn more about how to transport ourselves SAFELY!

[@sam_edwards_7233]

Would be good to meet Clive one day if he still volunteers at the Bluebell Railway.

[@highdownmartin]

Liz is a driver there now. Clive has retired from the steam.

[@arthurdailey4514]

Would love to have met Clive, I am just starting out as a trainee fireman and his videos are so informative. He was definitely a man with a passion for his craft.

[@buntik1687]

Great video. 🚂

[@adrianrosenlund-hudson8789]

I wish I could have met Clive. The world has lost his talent and experience

[@aleranco_black]

I wonder if this wonderful man is still alive?

[@ClassicProgrammes2868]

I'm wondering that too.

[@mattlander9119]

He is but I think he has retired from driving/firing.

[@Eurobrasil550]

Unfortunately very recently passed away (Early February 2024) RIP Clive.

[@adrianrosenlund-hudson8789]

Interesting and exciting? My back is aching on Clive's behalf just watching him shovelling coal 😂 what a great man he was

[@markeverson5849]

Well great video and I always wondered how it was to operate a steam locomotive! But I've never seen anyone or heard of anyone showing anybody else now I know about the glory. Thanks a lot my grandpa was a engineer on those old locomotives I seen one picture in my mother's sewing box of him with his head sticking out the side and is striped engineer hat up around Altoona Wisconsin Chippewa Falls I miss the old days I was born in nineteen fifty-six but I got to see a little bit very little but still feel that I'm somehow connected if I would have been born 10 years later there would have been no connection

[@oldsteamguy]

great video

[@maxlightfoot3886]

Rip, Clive

[@rafchris]

I am sad to say, Clive passed away in Feb 2024. Proper mainline enginemen from back in the day are becoming rarer now. Lets say you where a fireman in the late 60s at the end of steam and at the youngest you where 20 then you would have had to be born in the mid 1940s so will all be well into their 80s atleast now.

[@joshuadean1880]

😢noo

[@jimjasper9851]

RIP mate🦘🇦🇺😔

[@clarky2356]

When he said he has a woman fireman instead of a man fireman her face lol but I enjoyed this I absulutely love steam engines and this video was great to watch

[@ClassicProgrammes2868]

Women working on the footplate wasn't common in the early days but it picked up during the wars as most male people who worked for the railways went to fight for our country. The father of my late grandad did work for the railways and when WWII came up he left the LMS and went to fight for our country, he was one of the lucky people who did come back from the war and after the war was over he returned to the LMS and remained working on the railways until 1958.

[@davidnolan1692]

Clan Line often turned up at Southampton in the late 90's & early 2000's on QE2 Boat Trains & when it returned from Eastleigh Depot [to turn it around] i would offer to help out cleaning the fire box & then building the fire afterwards & i can tell you that any coal dust or small bits we found we straight in there into each corner.

[@rangerstl07]

43:30 " in the case of an engine with an inside valve I can smell the anise seed and garlic." I say, anise and garlic? Is that a bit of humor that I missed?

[@stevechandler2588]

Nope. Some 3 or 4 cylinder loco's had aniseed 'bombs' inside the middle big ends that would send a distinctive smell if run hot. Some engines have a plate in the cab to show what to do if such an event happened.

[@steamboy2451]

Steam trains just have much more JAZZ they may not be as efficient or as fast as diesel or 9 but they are just better somehow because they just simply, are.

[@jessetane8802]

Looks bloody young if he's 70 at time of recording

[@terencewilliammckenna6121]

Wow

[@rogerlollar4325]

75027 briefly appeared in Tommy (1975)

[@herbgarratt]

25:10 What a lovely man, and a pleasure to listen to. 'Must be extremely staisfying to be carried about in such a lok by two of one's lovely daughters? But, I must caution the viewer not to do what is seen at 25:10. When picking up a hoop with the staff/token/&c in it, with the right hand (in this case), one must clench one's hand into a fist, fingers curled backward into the palm, thumb tucked IN-side the aforesaid fingers (aka: nothing sticking out). Failure to do this will sooner or later result in a broken finger (or two). For the sake of the person on the ground, the hoop being released should be held in the left hand (in this case) with the left palm facing backwards, so that one's own fingers naturally release it to his grasp. At 8 mph, this stuff is not really crucial. At 40 plus mph, it is.

[@ncs8730]

Does anybody really do this at 40 mph?

[@djbhi2]

@@ncs8730 Yes!!! I've seen some trains in India and other areas do token exchange at upwards of 130 km/h (like 80ish mph)

[@southjerseyboy2844]

this better not get reported like last time

[@MasterMoyle]

It wasnt reported it was more like harassment by other people on KZbin and one particular channel who would then copy and upload my own video's & with one in particular which was of BIL on a Scarborough Spa outing some bugger edited it to try and humiliate me, which included imitating a phonecall saying that the hall was having a cup of tea & including footage of people with down syndrome aswell as bad mouthing people with autism too.

[@southjerseyboy2844]

@@MasterMoyle thats screwed up

[@chriswilson2431]

I agree. I was pleased to find this one again. There was another featuring Clive too I believe which different firing techniques which I’d love to re watch. Clive is such a wealth of knowledge and you can tell by how he works, just how much he knows about his work. What a wonderful man he is. I would love the chance to meet him and chat.

[@MasterMoyle]

There is the driving one too but it's unknown when that may go up owing to issues from certain people who then tried humiliating me with edited copies of my own work. Fortunately that channel got shut down but im keeping an eye on certain ones presently up, when they make their move i'll be making sure they are reported. Jamie Maltby even tried using my own channel trailer for his channel, but he got reported for it and his copy was removed. There is a film for locos of the big four but only got round to part 1 before WW3 broke out. Part 2 never even got edited and uploaded. Neither of which are available to view nor is the driving one im gonna add though as not uploaded, not even unlisted.

[@chriswilson2431]

@@MasterMoyle thanks for your reply David. Sorry to learn of the difficulties you’ve had due to moronic behaviour. Sadly it’s the way of the world these days! I’ll keep an eye as I really really enjoy listening to Clive and think he is a tremendous teacher. A true expert in his field. Best of luck and keep well!

[@CharlieKrampitz]

You drive an automobile. You run a locomotive.

[@russellgreen3375]

No, definitely drive a train too, my job title is train driver, it says so on my train driving licence!

[@Raul1971xxx]

Yes, it is a dirty job.. But unique and very fun.