Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Theories | What's the Deal with Mance's Spearwives? | Podcast

[@qujmilton]

There is a theory that Rowan is the daughter of Mors Umber that was abducted by widlings Rowan beign a Umber would explains her reverence to Ned's memory.

[@BrisbaneBhoy]

That has always been my main theory/take as to who she is, and why she made that comment. That was how I read it anyways.

[@michelmorio8026]

That makes actually way more sense then everything presented in this vid

[@TheLastSoundNL]

Abduction to wildlings is considered marriage. Saying it another way, an Umber married a wildling. And marriage means an alliance in a feudal sense. Maybe the Umbers even allowed it to happen. They are close to the wildlings, there's probably trade and they use spears specifically like wildlings. Theon and Jeyne we taken by Umbers when they escaped Winterfell. It'd make sense if the effort inside were also Umbers.

[@thisguy8106]

Idc what anyone says.. The scene with Mance and the two handed sword fighting Jon is SCREAMING that he's waaaay more than who he says he is.

[@SilasGreenback]

also the fact that the 1 1/2 handed hilt is known as a b*stard blade, making me think when jon finds out he isn't one, he'll end up with a 2 handed blade (dawn?).

[@BenJover]

@@SilasGreenback Dude how did you get it into your head that Jon isn't a bastard? No matter how you look at it he would still be a bastard.

[@Druidjezus]

@@BenJover you'd have to watch the relevant videos on this channel, but TL~DR is Ned married Ashara Dayne in front of a heart tree but then married Catelyn later in a Sept to win Hoster Tully to the cause/ Ned agreed to set Ashara aside and keep it secret. Jon is therefore legitimate. They have some very interesting and compelling references from the text to support it and it fits well as part of a larger meta theory about what's going on in the books that the creators present.

[@thisguy8106]

@@BenJover no. Cats kids are the bastards. Ned was married to Ashara. It makes his marriage to Cat the one that produces "bastard" children. There are several examples in the books. Like.. If sansa marries Harry The Heir.. Their marriage isn't real bc she's married to Tyrion.. GRRM has placed several examples throughout the entire story.

[@thisguy8106]

@@Druidjezus exactly!

[@mikeraycroft9568]

Sorry been missing live chat. You guys are great for putting out any content at all right now. You guys rock!

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Livestreams are the worst. These podcast style videos are the perfect median between livestream and scripted videos.

[@fuckoffgoogle1657]

What this guy said. Real life is just awful lol hope everyone is well!

[@aprilmae274]

It could be that Rowan is Umbers daughter. But it reads to me that Rowan has spoken with Osha. Davos is back with Rickon, Rickon is likely in Barrowton. There IS an army forming up in Barrowton. Barrowton is also where those Freys were questioned/tortured and then made into mince meats for pies. Barbrey was IN White Harbor when davos was there-the North Remembers speech is HERS. Manderly is quoting Barbrey, which is why Davos notes it as being different. Barbrey and Manderly are blackmailing Roose Bolton. They both basically say this, and soon only Roose, Barbrey, and Manderly will be the only people in the North who know that Roose stabbed Robb. Roose is going to be spared, and Ramsey WILL die at Winterfell. That speech that Barbrey gives reads more like a list of crimes and a declaration of guilt against the Freys and Ramsey. Ramsey-NOT the Boltons. Not Roose. Winterfell has ALREADY fallen. The hooded man is there to tell Manderly and Barbrey that Rickon is back. That is why shit is hitting the fan inside Winterfell. Here is where Osha comes in. Rickon is back, and Osha has spoken with the Wildlings inside. Osha already knows who Mance is-she wanted to take Bran BACK across the Wall to Mance-to use as ranson for safe passage south for the Wildlings. This alone says Osha has some clout amongst the Wildlings, like Ygritte did. Barbrey herself is trying to clear the collapse in the crypt AND return Ned's bones. That shite she says to Theon? Barbrey is NOT being honest-but she is not lying either. Go ALL the WAY back to when Ned goes to Barbrey after he leaves Starfall. To return her dead husband's horse...but NOT his body? SERIOUSLY??? This is the Lord of the Barrows body we are talking about. This is the Lord of Winterfell. Ned absolutely KNOWS that this is a HUGE insult-there is NO way he did this. He went to barbrey for help. With something major. Also interesting to note here is that the horse Ned returns? THAT is a gift horse. Barbrey knows about horses. She KNOWS the North and it's deep old beliefs. SHE is the one who told Manderly about Guest Gifts-horses. The horse she gave her new husband was the pride of her fathers herd. In the Dunc and Egg stories, Rohanne Webber tries to give Dunc basically the same horse. Pride of the herd, etc. He refuses. The clear connection there is the gift itself and what it means. But what does it really mean? Did Barbrey give her husband THAT horse to gaurantee his death? OR did she give him THAT horse to gaurantee his return? Did Rohanne want Dunc dead...or was she trying to get him to return to her? I think THOSE horses given, were meant as a gaurantee for their return. Guest Gifts are given for the opposite-and Barbrey knows this. I don't know if I wrote this the way my mind put it together-but I really think Osha has spoken to Rowan. Rowan has details in her accusations to Theon that Osha gave her. Rowan is qouting Osha's anger there. And Osha would have called him lord when speaking-she has bonda with the Starks now-maybe always has. Rowan doesn't say shit like that until then-like Manderly, this is a new type of lingo for her. It stands out. Osha herself is a whole interesting topic-who she is, why she is doing what she is doing...who is the ranger she mentions having killed when talking to Bran? Benjen? Osha isn't just some wildling. I am guessing that Mance is hiding in the crypts, with whatever spearwives survived. If Barbrey has cleared the crypts, then people can actually start moving through the cave passages that connect underground. Wana bet you can move A LOT of men through those passageways? A whole army, prolly. The underlying tone to these northern peeps is this inspired loyalty that is awesome. And almost sudden. Manderly goes from deep depression to solid confidence and drive. His Granddaughter is the same. Even Roose when telling Ramsey that he should be grateful to Barbrey-that is weird. Rowans sudden Stark awareness-it isn't JUST the Starks. It is the North Remembering. And it is Barbrey reminding them all. Look-how much sense does it REALLY make for Barbrey to feed Ned bones to dogs? But more-why the fuck would she say THAT to Theon IN the Crypts AT Winterfell? WHILE she is telling Theon that the entire North would kill and die for Starks? She's either stupidly suicidal OR she is not being honest. The ONLY 'Lord of Winterfell" bones she is going to feed to her dogs are Ramsey's. She wants to kill him WHILE he is 'Lord of Winterfell.' Roose KNOWS-he is trying to warn Ramsey without ruining Barbrey's plans. THAT is the price of his blackmail. His life-and Ramsey's death. Roose cannot help kill his son-but he cannot interfere either. THAT is why his talks with Ramsey read the way they do.

[@ivanbluecool]

Basically the show always had "20 good men" to beat an army but book has it done better as these spear wives are almost faceless men level of sneaking around with mance but honest at the same time. Also sad how the community sees Ned as foolish while everyone in the books remembers his life better even "enemies" do.

[@Genarii]

Well, the spear-wives didn't beat an army, they murdered a few people. Women south of the wall are less likely to be suspected in such things. Especially when everyone there hates each other (Manderly, Frey, et al.).

[@ivanbluecool]

@@Genarii give them enough time and they could make the tension boil to fighting which it did as they killed a few people here and there. Only question is what is the role they play going forward

[@bretcarter2518]

Is there an explanation to how Noone at Winterfell during King Robert's visit recognized Mance Rayder as Arthur Dayne....Jamie definitely would have shit his pants seeing the sword of the morning

[@obviouslyPSM]

the high lords and ladies would never have paid attention to anyone sitting at the end of the hall (hence why jon could have his direwolf at dinner) and none of the "lower" people at the feast are likely to recognize who arthur dayne is.

[@shortbuspimp]

@@obviouslyPSM also 16 years of hard aging north of the wall. Dressed differently, hair different, and across a large full hall with plenty of distraction

[@Kilthan2050]

Henry Cavill once stood under a billboard of himself as Superman, wearing normal clothes and glasses. No one recognized him despite a giant picture of him right there. People see what they expect to see. Its the most effective disguise to get somewhere you don’t belong is to act like it’s exactly where your supposed to be. A free rider at the back of the hall with other free riders draws no notice. Had Mance approached the high table and spoke, Jamie would likely have figured it out.

[@EbikingViking992]

Let's not forget many of King's Landing's guards didn't recognize Barristan Selmy whe he escaped simply because he had a few days stubble and plain clothes on

[@alexhendrick8288]

Machiavelli said that men see superficial but never penetrate with there gaze . As a point aged mance slash Arthur could have easily slid un noticed threw winterfell. Or maybe even Ned knew he was there. Maybe he came with benjen even.

[@achildofvalyria8915]

Well Rowan is probably Crowfood’s daughter kidnapped by the wildlings so that’s why she is acting northern.

[@jsull81]

🎯

[@ellen9575]

I was going to say that, AltShiftX mentions this in a video

[@achildofvalyria8915]

@@ellen9575 as well as girls from DireWolfcity ;)

[@melanatedqueen6662]

@A child of Valyria yes they got that idea from Alt Shift X. They did not come up with that on their own.

[@charlieturner5831]

Didn't a Liddle clansmen mention to bran that under ned a maiden could walk from one end of the North to the other in her maiden dress unmolested, would that have interest them?

[@Helloitsmeokay]

I don’t get the thumps down. Another great video from the best duo in the Tube. I believe that Mance got these ladies hyped up for the raid. Maybe Mance told the ladies the tale of N+A=J, women love a great love story.

[@Richard_Nickerson]

5:55 Fewer* -Stannis

[@EPYHDA1]

Ned was planning to redevelop the New Gift, and, if memory serves me well, give it to Jon as a fief - "a dream of Spring". Seeing how Joh had an upbringing that "he never would be a lord of Winterfel", it could be a deal with the Wildlings, as the inhabitants of these lands (as in feudal times, lands without people to work them are completely useless, especially when "the Winter Is Coming"), as a different type of leader - i.e. not a lord, so more acceptable to the Wildlings. As the Stoneheart-in-waiting ruined Ned's plans, by acting on her insatiable power lust, in a Southern sense, plans had to be re-adjusted, but sending Jon to the Wall, in full anticipation of him introducing himself to the Wildlings. That is how I interpret the books, but I do not read them as attentively as you do

[@stephencreme4617]

In Game of Thrones didn’t Ned mention something about needing to repopulate the New Gift? Must be with Freefolk under his direction.

[@antonchizhov4419]

Yeah and later on Jon, when faced with the dilemma of handling the free folk situation, remembers Ned and Benjen talking about settling people on the New Gift and thinks that Eddard would recognise the necessity of giving that lands to wildlings with the threat of the Others on the doorstep

[@ashleyofnaath]

I think Rowan's fury towards Theon stems from the fact that she's actually Rowan Umber, Mors Crowfood's long-lost daughter who was kidnapped by Wildlings in 270AC. This explains her reverence for Ned despite being a wildling. As to the other spearwives I couldn't say. I do think there's more to Mance than meets the eye, though I couldn't say for certain who he might be. His fight with Jon really stands out to me. It brings to mind something Alfie Allen once said. He asked GRRM who Jon Snow's parents were, and George said: "I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually." One of the most notable aspects of Luke Skywalker's arc is that he unknowingly duels his father, who's his chief opposition. Jon had that epic duel w/Mance; the Lord Commander of the Watch and the King Beyond the Wall would be considered one another's chief opposition...Is this what GRRM meant by "Luke Skywalker" situation? Is Mance Jon's true father? Unless the books introduce a Night King figure, I don't know who the equivalent of Darth Vader would be for Jon. Of course Luke also unknowingly falls in love w/his twin sister, and there are theories about several ladies potentially being Jon's twin, so it could be revealed that way as well. Regardless that fight w/Mance was so suspicious, as are the issues you highlight about him. There's definitely more to the story.

[@rileyvittitoe3636]

I think it's because Luke was raised by aunt and uncle after mother died in childbirth so it could still easily be L+R

[@sleekoduck]

Immediately clicked on this! The Starks and the Daynes (Mance Rayder) have a link by blood now since Ned and Ashara had a child.

[@DanaDayne7]

Awww old times, reminds me of your first few videos you made before Mary Ellen made her appearance. Just Dave’s deep ass voice caught my attention! Had me on the N+A=J real quick! Love you guys! Thanks for all your time and research into this great world of George’s!

[@CommonSenseWarrior37]

First, I stop watching whatever the hell it is I'm watching. Second, I click on your newly uploaded video. Third, I like. Fourth, I comment what a great video it is before I even watch it. And, lastly, I kick back and watch your video, knowing my expectations will be met. Great job guys!

[@downanddirtydream6329]

I'm all for it.. Mance is Authur Dane

[@tarvoc746]

Could it be that some of the Spearwives are Northerners and some of them Wildlings? Like, it's a mixed group? I can totally see Mance Rayder as someone who would do something like that.

[@girlnettles]

1. She's a long lost Stark bastard? 2. George/editors messed up? 3. Mance has been singing of the glory of the Starks the entire way and she's fallen in love with the lore? 4. She's being warged by Bran?

[@allyriastark3508]

There is a theory of Rowan being daughter of Mors Umber that were abducted by Wildlings

[@filbertrocko]

Bet there are Manderly"s kin. remember the Davos chapter and how the girls fight and cry about Ned ???

[@drgordo112]

That line jumped out to me as well. I agree that there is some kind of connection to the Starks.

[@shara1979]

Just his last name- Rayder

[@Richard_Nickerson]

I always thought it was just them thoroughly putting Theon down and making him subservient to them instead of Ramsay. Also, don't a lot of Wildlings show the Starks some kind of reverence? After all, they're admiral foes through the ages who share ancestry with the Wildlings. Edit: And the way they interpret the misinformation of Theon killing Bran and Rickon is like a violation of guest right, and wouldn't most people, especially women, be upset about brutally murdering innocent kids? One being a cripple, the other a toddler.

[@michelmorio8026]

I also understood it the way they just disregard Theon and speak openly about it for his actions like basically all the North does also... betraying your foster family, apparently slaughtering 2 of their children, being responsible for 2 sacks of Winterfell... Another reason could be being into your role... to play that convincing, you have to be always into it when there could anyone be around and listen a few glimpses... the godswood is such a Place

[@Armaniche]

Really happy the videos are coming back! Always enjoy them

[@danielbasich2729]

Could the spear wives be Tormund's daughters? If they are they could be half Mormont. Also we know Ned met Mance when Lord Commander Qorgyle came down to Winterfell to ask for help selecting the next LC of the NW. That tells me that Qorgyle was probably afraid of who his brothers were going to select. So that probably means Mance was in Qorgyle's inner circle and maybe at this meeting was tasked with infiltrating the wildlings and becoming the next King Beyond the Wall. Simultaneously starting Ned's Dream for Spring knowing he'll need a new Lord to watch over the population increase.

[@kaynewinters6063]

Mance is one of my favourite characters along with Stannis, Davos, Jon and Asha

[@Richard_Nickerson]

Stannis and Davos are great

[@nononono3421]

Mance will tell Jon he's his father. If you assume he was the black brother at Harrenhal, which is mentioned immediately after Lyanna pours wine on Benjen's head, which is a "noticeable event", which followed Rhaegar making her sniffle with a sad song, Mance would have remembered. Later, he goes to Winterfell probably again disguised, as the man travels to find recruits, and woos Lyanna with a sad song. A sad song like the one Theon heard. Now, will it be true or not? Who knows. Tyrion warned Jon, to make his bastardry so no one would use it to hurt him. I think Bran-King will use the Rhaegar story to manipulate Jon, making him believe Mance lied. We might never know the truth. I believe in Bran reshaping reality (I think the Others only exist because Old Nan told him stories about what was really stories about the wildlings, and he ended up making them real because of the power he is about to have). So Ned's dream is likely a distortion of reality cause by Bran later on.

[@thehouseofdragon5226]

Amazing video as always, and I'm enjoying this new format along with the Podcasts, I'm really excited now that you're doing a new edition of Mance Rayder= Arthur Dayne, this is going to be amazing, I'll be waiting. I think Mance/arthur told, not the whole truth, just the part of the truth related to him, Ned Stark, his sister and jon, as ned did everything possible to protect jon (his truebornson) and ended up living in a marriage which he didn't want to, and was forced to comply for the greater good, no one blamed him except himself (and most likely Arthur, before he knew all the circumstances.), and blames himself for ashara and jon, for not being able to tell jon about your mother, as it would involve telling the whole truth, of course Mance wouldn't talk about Aegon, just talk about all the things Ned did to Ashara and jon and everything that happened to Lord Eddard, it's a wonder story and it would make sense for them to stay with admiration and respect for Ned Stark. "when the truth is shrouded in so much lies when it is brought to light, it shines with tremendous strength" is a wonder story and it would make sense for them to stand in awe and respect for Ned Stark.

[@madalynnr9940]

I had the thought that it had something to do with there always needing to be a Stark in Winterfell and the wildlings know that reason and think that Theon has doomed them in killing and causing the deaths of so many Starks

[@coldhands2802]

Not a bad theory..

[@lenski8306]

Also one strange thing that you reminded me was the thoughts of Ned about Mance. Once he is at King's Landing, granted he had other things to do, he doesn't seems to care about how Mance might leed an army against the North who is, by this point, ruled by his son. Did he have reasons to not be afraid for the wildlings united by Mance ? Against the Lannisters, he is quick to give measures to Catlyn (who doesn't care at all) but about Mance, he isn't like "yeah, send a few hundred armed soldiers to an abandoned castle along the wall, just to be sure". It's not like Ned was confident in his own capacity to defeat Mance was he wouldn't be here while being the Hand at Kingslanding

[@mattythemartian3742]

I read these books twice over ten years ago and had plenty of theories of my own some in line with many I’ve seen on this channel and else where. I am currently re reading and having all these theories and breakdowns is making it even more enjoyable than the first go round.

[@thisguy8106]

There is no doubt in my mind that Mance is Arthur Dayne. Just like Jon being a Ned clone, which makes me have no doubts that he is Neds son.

[@Al-ji4gd]

Well, prepare to be disappointed, then.

[@theophrastusbombastus1359]

Another theory is that the particular spearwife in question, or even all of them, are originally northerners from the southern side of the Wall? Either they were kidnapped as children, or were offered by families of the Great Northern Conspiracy in secret maybe? Either way, there are many reasons to explain why daughters of royal houses made it beyond the Wall. Not saying I disagree with your Mance Theory (I actually firmly believe it). It's only that you asked for another possibility and I thought I'd offer one. Great work and keep it up please 🙏 👍

[@bAmMoD216]

So I actually heard a theory about this last night on Grey Area's Sunday night stream, basically Rowan is Crowfoods daughter, who was kidnapped by wildlings. Just relistening to Ygritte who doubled down to Jon that is only Daughters who have been taken, plus you throw in that age old theory about Tormund being the father of Mage Mormonts girls, Jeor knowing what Craster does ect. And you have The Liddell that Bran meets way before they even got to Queens Crown knowing what the raves did or didn't say from the fist and that Jeor and the men were attacked. So there seems to be a massive amount of communication between many of these families and beyond the wall. Putting aside Mance for a minute, if Rowan is Crowfood's daughter and conveniently it was Crowfood who got to Theon and fArya very quickly. And it would explain why she shows any kind of liking for Lord Stark, the wildlings don't hold that at all, but the stolen women who end up beyond the wall would 🤷‍♀️

[@bAmMoD216]

Should add that if Mance is taking any 'spear wives' he's going to choose people who can do the job of blending in just as well as he is while there, I don't see any spearwives that have never been south before such as Osha or Ygritte being being able to do something like that and not be caught, so more proof of 'wildlings' such as Rowan and Val who appear to have been south of the wall before. And every interaction we see of the Umber family are very "wildling" like

[@JB-gr3cf]

Making Mondays great again!! Thanks OOTGH!!!

[@wagrhodes13]

My only thought was maybe Theon's actions would be considered against one or more of those sacred taboos, like guest right, or kin-slaying. What Theon did might just be deeply repulsive to her. As for her using Ned's proper title, perhaps that is aimed at guilting Theon as a manipulation to get what she wants.

[@alexstewart9747]

Even more information hidden in plain sight 👏 Superb observation.

[@Peacich]

I haven't Red the books in years. But I'm telling everybody what great and plausible theories you have. I don't get why some people are so against your theories. I've had some really heated discussions on reddit some time ago. I'm definetly on your team. Guess I have to refresh my memory on this whole story. The last time I have red the books, every detail that you had in your theories made absolute sense.

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

thank you !

[@Lotschi]

I think one mistake we all fall for when thinking about theories etc. is the confirmation bias. We se the evidences for our theories but forget the little details pointing in a different direction. Ok, he just mentioned the confirmation bias.

[@shaunpoore2356]

Qhorin seemingly seeks out Jon for his party for no real reason other than him being a Stark… I think Preston Jacobs had some theories about why. I don’t have any theories but the Stark name seems to be a big deal for wildlings. As for theories…. I did some Googling and some people suspect Rowan is Mors Umbers daughter who got carried off in wildling raids because of this line.

[@jessewilliams9195]

I concur. You guys have convinced me that Mance Rayder is Arthur Dayne. I can't imagine counter reasons that would believably explain away your conclusion.

[@CM-db5cg]

Literally everybody that's known Mance attesting the opposite? The fact that they're wildly different ages? Or that every piece of evidence supporting this theory has a more narratively relevent and sigmificantly less schizophrenic answer?

[@WhiteSargent]

The Umber theory makes sense. But let’s say she is a pure wildling, and all the spear wives there are. If Mance has been meeting and conspiring with Ned for years, why wouldn’t he have an entourage? Perhaps these spearwives were chosen precisely because of their knowledge of Winterfell from previous meetings with Ned.

[@soulbrother1143]

I was watching direwolf city and they started speaking about this aswell and it was suggested by one of the ladies on the show that the spear wife you are speaking of is an umber daughter who was taken by raiding wildlings..which would explain why she is with the wildlings and the reason she treats theon roughly and has calls him lord stark....... not my theory..it was on direwolf city

[@cheapluxtaste1894]

If Arthur Dayne is really Mance then maybe that’s why Ned sent Benjen to the wall.

[@Genarii]

Is Rowan playing her role of Mole's Town girl with Theon, or is he aware of who/what she is and Rowan knows that he knows? If it's the former, which I assume it is, it doesn't require much explanation other than: she's playing her role. Even if sincere in her anger, she might just not like child murderers. The "Lord Stark" is playing the part as to call Ned otherwise would sound like a Wildling.

[@saminator3563]

Holy shit I thought his when I read it but assumed they were undercover southerners like Mance. You guys are genius's! They are wildlings from there mannerisms and behaviors. Ned and Mance are friends I believe. Maybe thats who Ned meant to settle in the Gift?

[@ssa3101]

Facebook and instagram are down but youtube is up. Good times

[@jsull81]

Isn't there a theory that one of the spearwifes (maybe Rowan) is one of the Umber's long lost daughters? If so, this would make sense, then But it's definitely fishy, whatever the case, good catch

[@db7213]

Very interesting observation! My thoughts: By using Ned's title south of the wall, she's not just showing respect to him, but she's also implying that she agrees with the culture that gave him this title. I would think that if the average wildling concluded that Ned is a great guy, he would say "Ned Stark is a great guy", not "Lord Eddard is a great guy", no matter how highly he thought of Ned. To the wildlings, lordship is just some idiotic thing that the kneelers care about. Could it be that she's trying to pretend that that she's from south of the wall, and knows that this is how people from south of the wall speak? (Although, is it how commoners from Mole's Town speak?)

[@vorborinov4054]

Rowan's comment to Theon stood out to me the first time I read it, & when tracing my way back through the books to try to figure out if there is a connection between Mance & Ned Stark, an obvious question arose - why did Mance Raydar never warn the Starks/Winterfell about the Others? Why did Mance never send warning to the Nights Watch? When we first meet Mance in the books, that is, when Jon Snow meets him, Ned Stark has not been dead all that long, but Mance has known about the Others for a long time, remember what Stannis said about Mance: he knows much & more about our true enemy. That is knowledge derived over time. Plus, if Mance wasn't BSing Jon, he was at Winterfell when King Robert was there, did it not occur to Mance that he needs to warn the Seven Kingdoms? This question is relevant to the Rowan comment, because what Rowan says suggests that there is some kind of covert relationship not only between Mance & the Starks, but a select group of wildlings as well. In AGoT Ned says to Catelyn that Mance is no threat to us, but he also says that he believes he will have to deal with this King Beyond the Wall at some point - well what does that mean? I interpreted it to mean that Ned knows who Mance really is, they have some kind of pact but for reasons of mutual security they can not be in direct contact. When Ned says what he says to Catelyn, I think he is beginning to suspect that something is going on, in fact he says it, the Nights Watch is inexplicably losing men & it is unclear why, so he needs to go & see Mance directly & get some answers from him. But why has Mance not sent Ned forewarning, I mean the first book begins, after the Prologue, when Ned beheads a NW deserter who has been terrified into madness by an encounter with the Others. So the Others are well on the move way before Ned leaves for Kings Landing. If Mance was planning to lead the free folk south of the Wall, why did he not have an advance plan with Ned? If Ned had had any hint of the Others, he would never have left Winterfell - & that's why I think GRRM starts the book at that point, because Ned was clearly drawn to Kings Landing by a much darker conspiracy that involved leaving the North defenceless for the Others to attack. There are a lot of questions about Mance Raydar clearly, he is not who it is said he is, I think that we can say with certaintly, whether he is Arthur Dayne I don't know but my own feelings on this point to him being Arthur Dayne. But what his relationship with Ned was is very confusing, there are alot of contradictions.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks Dave and Mary Ellen ( sir and milady)

[@shara1979]

Maybe Benjen united him with Ned.

[@shara1979]

Maybe Arthur Dayne is Coldhands

[@cbob213]

She's Crowfood's daughter

[@nicknelson9913]

Rowan was kidnapped and taken beyond the wall. She was a northern Lords daughter-I can't remember which one off hand...

[@SilasGreenback]

maybe rowan said that to theon because she is the umber daughter that was taken, or maybe it's because she sees theon as a turncloak kinslayer & the reason why they are even there trying to save arya, & winterfall was lost because of him. also mance told jon that no one at the feast for the king would recognise him. maybe manse had told the spearwives that in order for the north to accept wildlings living in the north & fighting as brothers in arms was to save the neds daughter & help recapture winterfell.

[@Armaniche]

Could be the most sympathetic spearwife. She sure could have heard what Theon did when she spend the time at Winterfell. But then, she really knew the Stark words and seemed like it bugged her that he would use them. Those books just keep on giving

[@tylerbarrett6652]

... and then there's that part where Ned tells Cat that Mance Radyr is nothing they have to worry about... and yet he does not subscribe to Old Nan's tales of the Giants, the Children, the Others and the Wights.... Is he acting like he knows nothing about plans to unify the wildlings with the North in preparation? Or is there some agreement that people don't want him to be in the position of knowing... like a plausible deniability scenario? It seems there is a whole lot of information in the north that Ned simply isn't privy to... and he SHOULD be... unless he has delegated all of that to Benjin somehow with an agreement that Benjin will fill him in when the time is right. IDK... it stumped me too.

[@johngo3715]

With Mance being theorized as Arthur Dayne, when do you think he will reveal his true identity and tell the story of how he ended up as a wildling?

[@davel7791]

If Ned had lived, would he have let the Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch in on his plan to let the wildlings through the Wall? In the books, it seems nobody in the Night’s Watch sees Mance as an ally. They go to war with him.

[@cameronmaden6268]

He could have developed his passion for singing and thorough knowledge of southron songs from Rhaegar if this is true

[@sasazamami]

Ser AD would have been recognized at Roberts winterfell’s feast that’s my problem with that theory

[@Lotschi]

good point!

[@jonathoncardwell1489]

I don't think ned would have said that mance was no threat to him if he had believed he would have lost one man in fighting mance. He cared way to much for his people. Another thing is that he had planned on settling people back on the gift. What people did he plan on moving there? I really like this theory. I had heard someone else put it out but the more i think about it the more i like it.

[@childofpersia1213]

It makes me wonder if the Spearwives are not who they say they are - are they Stark loyalists hiding/posing as wildlings? Have they accompanied Mance on his multiple trips over the wall and that’s why they are familiar with the Starks? To expand on that, I think Mance went over the wall multiple times to disguise himself as Bael the Bard each time. I wouldn’t doubt that he had some Spearwives who accompanied him and also disguised themselves in the town around Winterfell. While they were there, Lord Stark was their leader and they had to refer to him as such, if they’re gonna sell that they are Northmen. While living there and playing that part, they came to genuinely respect Lord Stark - which is why they snap at Theon’s comment. And who pretends to be someone they are not? THE FACELESS MEN. That’s why they are so willing to “whore themselves out” as you put it …because faceless men put up with any pain to complete the mission.

[@theknightwhosmokedthelaugh7156]

In the first chapter of A Game of Thrones, Ned beheads the deserter from The nights watch. Wether or not Arthur Dayne is Mance, he has still deserted the Nights Watch and Ned would have treated him accordingly.

[@aber416373]

Perhaps the Spearwives do not look upon Eddard Stark as a Lord, per se, but as the King of Winter. The wildlings probably remember things that the Starks have long forgotten. Maybe "Ice Eyes" Brandon Stark was a King of Winter. We might even see Jon as the next King of Winter, showing us what this title actually entails.

[@batshine8]

In many ways it shows that many wildlings are more disciplined than we know. I bet they act one way with outsiders/crows/etc, they trust a plan that was going to happen and revere Ned but won't say things to others so they don't expose their feelings or plans. Jon is Lord Crow, they stay in character around the Watch, this girl either things they are safe to say something around Theon or due to her age and being around someone they believe murdered Ned's sons she couldn't control herself and let the secret slip. I'm also curious about the Tree. It takes on the face of the last person to connect with it, given that everyone is icing over and it has a moustache of icicles, could an Other be using it?

[@cramptonater]

You make some great points and Mance dose seem to be more that a wildling but my question is why didn’t Mance say anything to Jon if he had a plan with Ned?

[@coldhands2802]

He was more than a wildling. He was part of the nights watch and abandoned it

[@allyriastark3508]

Mance wanted "young and pretty" girls to bring to Winterfell, and told Jon the names of women he wanted to pick, none were young or pretty

[@Dustland]

As other commenters have said, it is possible she is a northwoman. Some people think she is Crowfood Umber's daughter, she could be but I think regardless of who she is this line by her is to show that she is clearly NOT a wilding. Or she can pretend not to be a wildling very well. It shows Mance isn't alone, he has a network of people that support him. If Mance is Arthur Dayne, I do not think he would let her in on secrets like his true identity. I think very much akin to Qhorin Halfhand being Oswell Whent, the Mance/Arthur connection is likely to never be confirmed even if true.

[@joannecassell8825]

There must be 3. 3 kings' guards go north?

[@lanestapp2]

I've become fond of the idea of Crowsfoods granddaughters being beyond the wall now. It may fit the timeline better than the one daughter. And if Mance is Arthur it becomes almost a certainty he would want southern wildlings to go with him.

[@redladie8528]

We know one of the umbers daughters was stolen by wildlings, it was said to be a common thing. What if the spearwifes were all daughter's from the north???

[@kellylausman259]

I think Rowan knew Lord Eddard. If Mance was making trips to Winterfell, I doubt he would have gone alone. Traveling alone was too dangerous. If Rowan only had great respect for Ned, she would have called him "Lord Stark". Since she used his first name, then at some point, she's met him. Besides, if Mance was sneaking down to Winterfell, what better disguise than a wife? And maybe a different one than he was last seen with would help keep him from being recognized as easily. Besides, you wouldn't prostitute yourself for someone you never met...

[@neriumsuitedher]

Ned planned to resettle the Gift. What if his plan was to resettle it with the Wildlings? Something that Jon kinda did.

[@praiha]

Mance going back and worth that many times is weird, especially considering the vast distances, but that was just in the first book (IIRC), and maybe that plot line didn't end up going anywhere...

[@josephradley3160]

Ok I am not yet subscribed to "Mance is Arthur" but... Ned told Cat that he might have to call the banners to go spank Mance. The wildlings would know that Ned was an honourable man and therefore respect him. IF Mance was working with Ned then maybe that was part of Neds plan to resettle The Gift. Big if there. These women were all known to Mance. He supplied the names and Edd Tollet got them out of Moles Town.

[@ivanbluecool]

I'll put in my mutiple thoughts on the matter. If mance isn't dayne the spear wives are people who served winterfell or at least knew of the peace Ned gave the north as many people said when the Starks ruled it was peaceful and people could walk down the road and not get attacked and such. Even guest right was a big thing as the north is a harsh land and people needed to work together to survive like the saying "the lone wolf dies but the pack survives". Basically they respect the man and his duty If mance is dayne then it's simple to see these women have been in the loop as NOBODY would sacrifice themselves willingly to save someone's child just by being told by mance Seeing how far they go and yet still are truthful about who they took out. I feel the north and northern side of the wall have more in command than not as they do trade with each other sometimes so word can get around

[@TheSpreadCoach]

Grey Area & her Dire Wolf City crew talked about this last night. Lol y’all should do a show together.

[@valentinpineda247]

Could it be Maige Mormont and her daughters? I know, it's suggested that Maige had a relationship with Tormund Giantsbane. It's suggested that they had lots of kids and she took the girls and Tormund took the boys. None of the girls is married, but some have daughters.

[@jerrytown8178]

Mance is rheagar. The dude can play every song from the entire 7 kingdoms. As far I know A. Dayne didn't play a stringed instrument. Why would Arthur keep going to winterfell. Rheager would want to go check on his son. Also only a person who grew up learning about politics and political theory could unit all those different tribes together. Lastly wouldn't Mance just take his people across the water to get away from the white walkers? Why go south. Because he has love for the kingdoms and wants to help his son, who don't forget he thinks is the prince that's promised.

[@aaronalfano35mm]

Now that’s an interesting idea…

[@antoinetteaubert9503]

Rhaegar is to selfish to be Mance. A man who doesn't give a fuck about his wifer and children being brutally murdered isn't going to live the life of a willing to save the world. Besides George said Rhaegar is dead. It is one of the only straight answers we ever get from George.

[@tylerbarrett6652]

Maybe Rowan was actually Benjin's woman? He seemed to regret A LOT his decision to join the watch but also seemed to have a really good idea of what he had given up when he took that vow. Could he have pulled this off as Lead Ranger? I still think Benjin would have to be in on the REAL threat and the overall plan to deal with it.

[@theinvisiblewoman6783]

It’s been a while since I really read those chapters. But could Rowan at least be a northern girl? Someone who spent her early childhood in a Northern house or winter town or something before she became a wildling? Would make sense if they were more loyal to the north and Lord Eddard.

[@ratgirl34]

Either writers error, or maybe after hearing the story’s from the men they were bedding they developed their own opinions. The wildlings don’t have lords, and they don’t like the idea of a system where one person rules over another. But wildlings do respect good leaders, which Ned certainly was.

[@americanfresh17]

Ironically GrayArea Just Did A Stream Speaking On This Topic

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

That’s bizarre. I recorded this podcast two years ago. I don’t know what the odds are that I’d pick it as the one I wanted to release and she’d be talking about it too but they can’t be good

[@americanfresh17]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand No I’m Not Saying You Guys Are Copying Each Other Or Anything. It’s More Like Great Minds Think A Like. Her And The Other Guest That Were On The Stream Basically Said That Rowen Might Be Mor Umber’s Daughter That Was Kidnapped By The Wildings, And They Brought Up The Same Points That You Said In This Video. It’s A Good Theory And Very Possible

[@georgejohnson7013]

I thought that was weird too. I try and figure these things out and I’m just worried a lot of these things are just George writing and not thinking about it. Like it’s filler or something.

[@coryholibaugh8124]

I really just want Mance to be Arthur Dayne lol

[@bryantaylor9874]

This is an old theory. I can't believe you never came across it before. Rowan is almost def an Umber and who knows about the rest.

[@TheMad_LordSnow]

You don't think if mance was Aurther Dane that Jamie would have noticed him? I mean, he was Jamie's idol

[@jeannebouwman1970]

The only insight we get into wildling culture from a wildling comes from ygritte, and what she said is taken as gospel by Jon and also some readers, but the north is a big place, and the way ygritte describes it is probably not true for all wildlings, as we see in the way some wildlings act.

[@axelNodvon2047]

If Ned had such plans with Mance, why did he go down south to King’s Landing? I mean winter is coming and if I recall correctly didn’t the deserter in the prologue say something about the others? Why leave the north in such a precarious time

[@buntuklaas9126]

Perhaps Ned saw that if he didn't go south, the realm would not be as unified as it could be to face the threat in the north, so he may have gone south to sort out the mess in King's Landing and then planned to face the threat with a united Westeros.

[@axelNodvon2047]

@@buntuklaas9126 Okay, but he really didn't want to go initially until Cat and Luwin ganged up on him. This is confusing

[@buntuklaas9126]

@@axelNodvon2047 That's true. I haven't read aGoT in years, and I'm almost positive that the scene takes place in Catelyn's pov. In that case it really is impossible to tell which of her arguments convinced him to leave unless Ned actually thinks of it in a later chapter.

[@soulbrother1143]

Who is supplying these women to moles town

[@pamelabaker454]

Seinfeld voice what’s the deal with spearwives

[@meldraghart]

There are so many possible explainations, it's kinda impossible to pick one... At one point you could theorize this is Ashara(yeah I know, not a chance) and at another point she could've been just playing her part pretty damm well(which would be way out of character for a wildling girl, and there are tons of options between those two....

[@dalejennings2677]

How about a video on Arias warnging skills without training. She knew she couldn't eat her mom's corpse. She just new naturally. Abomination not this weesle. Also just a theory if mine. Bran will warg into" zombie" john. And become the nights.king/ big bad. Abomination yes this broken boy sure is.

[@joannecassell8825]

Dayne was Raegar's best friend and would have known his dragon theories. What would Ned have done that made Arthur and House Dayne appreciate him so????!!??

[@micah06v8]

He must have done something and I'm dying to know what it is! Because it must have been something amazing for Arthur Dayne's nephew to go by the name Ned.

[@abubakarmuhammad7336]

Could one of the spearwives be a Mormont or from the Northern mountain clans?

[@KingOfWinter]

I always read it as a mutual respect for your long time enemy type thing. Like lord Eddard can and will die at my hand but he does not deserve to die in such a treacherous fashion. Plus the idea of someone who was a guest in their house for so long and treated extremely well even though they had every right to treat him like a prisoner then repaying that kindness my taking your castle and killing your children would be sickening for almost anyone with any time of moral compass or honor to hear.

[@bartistclord1916]

It's too bad that George is doing anything and everything BUT finishing Winds of Winter, and he will never write the conclusion. He will likely never answer the questions which he laid out.

[@ultralance12]

Doesn’t Arthur Dane have purple eyes? Did they ever say what colors lances were?

[@TheOrderoftheGreenhand]

We never get any physical description of Arthur

[@antoinetteaubert9503]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand we hardly ever get characters eye color. It depends entirely on pic and g

[@chadgatrell9793]

@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Dave, check out ASOS when Stannis attacks the wildling camp. Val says something peculiar. She and Jon are watching from the tent and she whispers, "Gods, why are they doing this?". They just attacked the wall for like a week. She is smart and can figure out the nature of a Sally or counterattack, so is she just frustrates by the timing because Dalla is giving birth at that moment, or should it tip us off about her having information regarding the link/alliance between Mance and Stannis? Have a look and see if you think this is out of place.

[@jadair1591]

Why would the spear wives think that fake arya is real? Mance has seen all the stark kids at the feast for robert

[@firefireice5229]

The trailer for house of the dragon came out plz do a live reaction