Theory In Practice: Playing With Pentatonic Modes

[@12tone]

An extra tidbit we left out of the video: One of the reasons they all sound so similar is that, when you make a pentatonic scale, the notes you remove are also the notes you would've altered in order to make a neighboring mode. For instance, Minor Pentatonic is the minor scale without the 2 or the b6. Its neighboring modes are Dorian (Minor with an altered 6) and Phrygian, (Minor with an altered 2) so the notes of Minor Pentatonic are all found in all three scales. This means that, if you play Minor Pentatonic, it's unclear which of those three modes you're actually drawing from. As such, you need to go a couple modes away to get a noticeably different sound, and since we've only got five possibilities we only need two to cover that whole possibility space. Hence, Major and Minor Pentatonic.

[@miguelbass]

That's the result of trying to make 7 modes out of 5 notes. The other approach is to make 5 modes out of the 5 notes of the pentatonic. Check out the Chinese modes. Thanks for your great videos!

[@oursonvie]

宫、商、角、徵、羽

[@archkde]

It might be interesting to note that during the Tang dynasty, the Chinese literally went exactly the opposite direction that you did: instead of constructing pentatonic modes from heptatonic modes, they created heptatonic modes out of pentatonic modes! And shockingly, they ended up with EXACTLY the same 84 scales and modes as the West! (C Ionian, C Dorian, ... B Aeolian, B Locrian) [Well, not exactly, because the Chinese used Pythagorean tuning, which gave all of their modes, including their pentatonic modes, different characteristics, as many of the intervals between their 12 tones were quite larger or smaller compared to their corresponding equivalents in 12-TET.] After the Tang dynasty, the heptatonic scales kinda fell out of use though; during the late Qing dynasty, a heptatonic scale developed that was very roughly equivalent to 7-TET, and some modes were built based off of this. You can still hear it in lots of Cantonese music today. (Ex: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l2K6iZx-grSgq7s)

[@lukesaunders4776]

I second this, check out the Japanese and Chinese pentatonic modal systems. Very versatile scales and helps you understand the major and minor pentatonic within a (I would argue) more useful context.

[@live2groove]

So if you played a Bmin pentatonic over a CMaj7#11 what mode are you in?

[@JYthemusicguy]

It doesn't change anything about their function (in terms of Western music at least) but in Chinese music each pentatonic mode is assigned the name of the note it starts on: gōng 宫, shāng 商, jué 角, zhǐ 徵 and yǔ 羽 . My Chinese music theory teacher had the students memorize the names so he could quickly reference them in class.

[@12tone]

That's awesome! I don't know a lot about Chinese theory so I'd never encountered those before, but I know the pentatonic scale is pretty important in Chinese traditional music, so the fact that they'd have explored these variations makes a lot of sense. Thanks for sharing!

[@JYthemusicguy]

12tone You're welcome! I'm a recent music grad and happened to stumble upon your channel. Keep up the fantastic work. Hope to see more awesome content to sink my theory-loving teeth into!

[@oursonvie]

As a Chinese I can't help but to ask why traditional chinese music sounds so different from blues, they are basically using the same scale.

[@CarlosGonzalez-mp9re]

Tonny Zhang Well, blues is way more than pentatonic modes. The dominant chords are very important, the unsolved tritone, the use of major and minor pentatonic with the same root (and the bebop scale, which comes from there), chromatics, the African sense of rhythm and imitation (question-response), and of course "Blue notes" (or notes out of tune). Maybe there are more than a few things in common with Chinese traditional music (I don't know much about it), but there are lots of things that define the sound of blues music.

[@mertatakan7591]

Aren't the notes equally spaced though?

[@MuzikBike]

Just realized that the pentatonic scale is also pretty much the waste product of the major scale when taken out of a chromatic scale. If you play C major, the remaining notes (all the black notes) make up F# major pentatonic.

[@12tone]

Yeah, that's another interesting property they've got! Thanks for bringing it up!

[@1994savvas]

arccis I discovered this thing myself when I was 12, playing the "black keys" on a glockenspiel and I thought it sounded funny like chinese music. But it's interesting because I had no idea about music theory and I could hardly play a couple of christmas songs.

[@PragmaticAntithesis]

Yup! This is a trick I use on keyboard: if you only play the black keys, you'll almost never sound 'bad'.

[@austinhernandez2716]

That's very interesting! So the absent notes from a chromatic scale not used in a major scale make up the pentatonic scale a tritone up from that major scale. Such property might be useful in some ways

[@saoirsecameron]

Bagpipers in the context of Scottish and Irish traditional music solve this problem... by ignoring it. For instance the modern Great Highland Bagpipe is in Bb mixolydian. But what if you want to play a minor tonality in Bb? There are no accidentals so you literally just omit the 3rd. There is no complete triad but that’s okay because the drones provide a pedal tone that still implies some sort of functional harmony. It sounds minor even though it’s has no defined quality. Session guitar players might fill out the minor third when doing rhythmic backing but they also might not as open 5ths (especially on the tonic) are much more common in the Celtic traditions than in the rest of Western Europe. The other solution also from these same musical tradition is the hexatonic scale. You just remove one of the notes responsible for the tritone while keeping whatever notes you need for to keep the scale harmonically functional. It’s not really a pentatonic scale but the skip still gives it that relaxed feel. I can’t speak for bagpipes in other traditional musical systems but I would imagine given the same limitations of a fixed pedal tone or open 5th that they would come up with similar solutions as long as they are still using a 12 tone even temperament system. There are some really cool bagpipes from Eastern Europe and the Middle East which exist within musical traditions that extensively use semitone scales so I have no idea how the concepts translate but I’d love to learn more about it.

[@elbschwartz]

Here's another system of pentatonic modes: Take a chain of 7 fifths - F C G D A E B Next, take 5 note subsets of this chain [F C G D A] - F major/D minor pentatonic [C G D A E] - C major/A minor pentatonic [G D A E B] - G major/E minor pentatonic So far, nothing unusual. But what if we keep shifting to the right, and treat F C G D A E B as a closed circle rather than a chain? [D A E B - F] [A E B - F C] [E B - F C G] [B - F C G D] We get FOUR new kinds of pentatonic scales. These are not just theoretical, but are actually employed in various Asian musics. [D A E B -F] - Insen scale in Japan, Mataraman scale in Sunda [A E B -F C] - Hirajoshi/In scale in Japan, Madenda scale in Sunda [E B - F C G] - Degung scale in Sunda [B -F C G D] - Used in some archaic music of Sunda/Java As well as in Burmese music (but with a slightly different tuning system). There are probably other cases as well, but that's the extent of my knowledge. You can probably see that [E B -F C G] works well over C ionian or E phyrgian. [D A E B -F] is good for D dorian, B locrian, and possibly G mixolydian (tonic omitted) or F lydian (5th omitted). [B -F C G D] is good for B locrian, D dorian (5th omitted) or G mixolydian. [A E B - F C] is good for A aeolian and F lydian.

[@JasonGinsbergRKC2]

These aren’t new though, and aren’t boring! They’ve been used in music other than Western classical music for centuries, around the world. Take the Dorian pentatonic for instance: both highland bagpipe music (and Gaelic song), in both piobaireachd and ceol beag (and the Bagad music from Brittany using highland pipes), Bulgarian kaba gaida music, and Chinese guqin and suona music (and probably other Chinese instruments as well) use this all the time, quite effectively. One thing that helps in both cases is they’re not using equal temperament, and in the case of bagpipe music, the use of the drone. For some reason, every theorist I’ve seen who comes from a classical frame of reference misses some of the most basic uses and characteristics of drones in modal music, but when used in context, it’s super helpful and useful musically. Several other “modal pentatonics” are used in all the above genres as well, and I’m sure in other forms of music from around the world.

[@sasentaiko]

Such a good point about drones, thank you.

[@dyscotopia]

There are many electronic musicians who would disagree that pentatonic modes are useless. As a live performance is generally performed by mixing and matching pre-recorded (sampled or midi) sections with a bit of light keyboard noodling, having material where you never need to worry about a dissonant chord harshing the vibe is super useful...

[@ChristopherBratten]

I literally laughed out loud at “my dumb pointless baby.” I’m totally using that in my theory classes. 😂

[@TheTrueAltoClef]

Without music life would Bb.

[@12tone]

Heh, nice!

[@abramthiessen8749]

I actually have that on my wall.

[@MuzikBike]

You are A# individual.

[@krang07]

I see what you did there... you b#, which, isn't a thing...see what I did there?

[@tridentremixes5449]

August Lyons Actually B# is correct. It's just C and is actually used.

[@leirbag75]

Dorian pentatonic is basically the scale of "What Wondrous Love Is This" (although it has the major sixth added in as a passing note at one point). I've always found it a fascinating melody

[@pentinum]

You probably do the highest quality music theory videos that I know of on KZbin. Adam Neely brought me to your channel and I've been blown away by your videos. So in-depth yet so well and simply explained! You are true masters of music theory teaching, keep it up!

[@12tone]

Aw, thanks!

[@petewiseman]

Might be helpful to point out that the 4 and 7 left out of the major pentatonic are the SAME NOTES as the b6 and 2 left out of the minor pentatonic (when the two scales are relatives, ie in the same key, aka IONIAN and AEOLIAN)

[@SaintStoogie]

I just had a conversation with a student of mine about whether or not pentatonic modes existed or not. I had never even considered them before. Certainly an interesting topic and your video tackles it nicely.

[@anirudhsilai5790]

The contrast between dissonance and consonance is what makes music beautiful

[@MindsEyeVisualGuitarMethods]

Great topic...I view pentatonics as "Doorway" scales. Since from one pentatonic scale you could seamlessly morph into one of 3 different major scale key centers. To start with.

[@AlefSousa017]

Adam Neely brought me here, and i'm not disappointed at all! Great video and great content, keep up the great work ! Greetings from Brazil!

[@12tone]

Thanks!

[@Yoshimaster96smwc]

I've been playing around with another pentatonic scale. You see, the one you've shown has intervals of 2,2,3,2,3. The one I'm using goes 2,2,2,3,3. As such, there is no mode to get where I am. I usually arrange the scale: B♭ C D F A♭ (so the intervals are 2,2,3,3,2). Also, there is a single tritone interval in the scale I'm using (D A♭). However, the tritone is actually part of a dominant 7th (B♭ D F A♭), so it can be resolved pretty easily.

[@UnordEntertainment]

i quite strongly disagree with that they "all sound the same", they all sound colourful and different to me and actually more interesting than the 7-tone diatonic scales imo, the ones which tried to preserve the supposed characteristics/"flavour" of the 7-tone modes in the pentatonic versions sounded worse to me overall; sure, the 5-tone versions dont have the same "flavour" as the 7-tone scales theyre based off of but they sound like related but better versions of them to me, i like them quite a lot and disagree strongly with the notion that theyd have "not much practical use"

[@jacobdgm]

I've spent some time experimenting with pentatonic scales too! One approach that I've taken is to choose notes 12356 from each mode of the major scale. The familiar minor pentatonic scale can be thought of as the fifth mode of the major pentatonic scale (this may also be part of the reason you found your first "dorian pentatonic" scale underwhelming (1 2 4 5 b7) - it's just the second mode of the familiar major pentatonic). There are some duplicates (for example, you get the same major pentatonic scale by taking 12356 from a lydian, an ionian and a mixolydian scale), but some really interesting things shake out of it. Consider 1 b2 b3 5 b6, from phrygian - this closely approximates the pelog scale used in the Gamelan music of Indonesia. Or if we take 1 2 b3 5 6 from dorian, and look at its second mode (this gives us 1 b2 4 5 b7), we've found the in-sen scale, which is used by some jazz musicians for improvising over sus(b9) chords, and is also used for tuning the Japanese koto. Thanks for the work you're doing here - I found your channel a couple of days ago, and am quite enjoying going through all of the videos you've created. Keep up the good work!

[@12tone]

Really interesting, thanks for sharing!

[@Nemo_Anom]

I'd love it if music theorists can get away from the lens of diatonic scales and major scale bias. Just because something sounds the "same" to you doesn't mean it does to everyone. Plenty of people say the modes all sound the same, like the major scale, because that's all they're exposed to. Also stop comparing the modes to major scale! Show some respect, the modes existed before the concept of the "major" scale was around. The pentatonic modes sound just as unique as the natural modes sound.

[@JackJenningsGuitarist]

If you look at forms of music from around the world such as Mali Blues, Indian Classical and more, there are many examples of these pentatonic scales (plus others) being used to great effect. I don't see the need to lable them less usable just because they don't fit into a theoretical framework of modes or pure pentatonics, as a rather forced idea of what is meant by pentatonic scales. Pentatonic really means 'five note scale', in the same way septatonic means 'seven note scale'. The origin of the Major pentatonic has more to do with the natural and intuitive process of the first five notes of the harmonic series being set in scale order, rather than the concept of removing the tritones from Major and Minor scales. I think the important thing here is that scales (or at least widely used scales) do arise naturally from people singing and playing what comes into their head. The theory just helps to map it out and you can indeed discover new scales that way. But I think that making rules about what is useful or not useful, misses the fact that other cultures (who don't have the same theory system) have been using those scales before Western theory even existed.

[@MarsLos10]

*"My dumb, pointless baby"* I loved it:')

[@teucer915]

I think you're underselling what you worked on. Each pentatonic mode has a distinct three triadic chords, one major and two minor (one of the minor ones fills in one of its gaps with its fifth degree, but still plays nicely even so), along with room for two more sus chords (that can if you like be filled in with third degrees to make fully diatonic harmonies, even under a pentatonic melody, but certainly don't need to be). For example, in the pentatonic mode ambiguous between Ionian, Mixolydian, and Dorian, with the root at G, you get Gsus (typically realized as major), Am, C, Dsus (readily realized as Dsus7), Em - the building blocks of a lot of Anglo-American folk music. In fact as a banjo player, the Dsus7 is famously one of the first three things you learn to play; in the open G tuning popularized by Earl Scruggs, it's enough easier than either D or Dm that novices are often taught to substitute it in for both of them - and, in folk music, that often works! but not because it's a universally appropriate choice, just because when you're playing in G, in that style, it's often a fine choice. But there's a big difference between a song in G mixolydian that you've harmonized with a lot of that, vs G, Asus4, Bm, Dsus6, and Em, or G, Am, C, Dsus4, and Fm, for example. Each pentatonic mode has its own characteristic set of three chords and two optional sus chords, a fact I noticed when I started looking into how to harmonize by ear under traditional English and Scottish folk melodies. I think a great case can be made that in that context it's helpful to treat the pentatonic modes as fundamental, and the diatonic ones (which include more tension for all the reasons you note) as a useful tool derived from them (you mostly get at the diatonic tension by adding your choice of third degree to the two sus chords), rather than the standard form of thought in which it is of course the other way around. (Not coincidentally, more Scottish songs are hexatonic and ambiguous between two diatonic modes than actually use all seven notes, of the mode we tend to think they're in - and a lot of those only even use the other note that you'd delete in the pentatonic as a passing tone rather than ever giving it stress.) I can get a little further by noting that the circle of fifths starting from any given note first generates the five notes of a pentatonic scale (specifically the one that's ambiguously Lydian-Ionian-Mixolydian if you treat your starting point as the root) before filling it in with the two that make it diatonic (specifically Lydian; this is a core insight of the Lydian Chromatic Concept although I don't think a lot of the follow-up conclusions in that tome are especially useful outside of jazz) and then proceeding to fill in the rest of the chromatic scale. I don't think that fact is unrelated to the above, though exactly why it's related or what use it is I can't really say. My own messing around with a pentatonic-is-fundamental attitude has gotten me just a little bit beyond what I outline here, but only a very little - I simply don't have the theory background to get too far into the weeds and explore all its potential implications. I remain convinced it proves there's more in pentatonic modes than you give them credit for.

[@ZipplyZane]

When you do the scales around two minutes in, you get an interesting effect where it feels like the top note is like a melody. It has a "Do, a deer" vibe. And thus it felt very incomplete without doing the Bb Ionian scale again. That leading tone just hangs there!

[@12tone]

Good catch! I noticed that when I was making it, but decided it would be too weird to replay the Ionian one without context.

[@AlexAlexandrov]

You create beautiful things. Your stuff is so inspiring to me, I adore the way you get excited about what people might brand as "boring" or "dry". That analythical approach is something I admire greatly! Thanks ;)

[@12tone]

Thanks! Communicating how much passion music theorists have for the work they do, and how much fun and interesting stuff there is to be found there, has always been one of our main goals, so I'm glad it's working!

[@xheppelin1827]

5:13 Yeah three interlocking gears are pretty dumb and pointless.

[@larrycornell240]

The sweet thing about Dorian And Lydian mode pentatonic is that neither has a third because then you can riff in it while the underlying chord is free to be either major minor, opening up some very nice key changes. If you are playing over the third scale tone (Phrygian mode) you don’t get a fifth so you can flat the minor sixth to return the needed fifth. I’ve started thinking about these pentatonic modes myself and find there is a rich tapestry of familiar sounds there which I have been hearing in music for decades.

[@garfd2]

Also worth mentioning is the fact that it's built in straight 5th/4ths. Playing with the 7t and 5t scales and their chords using the Circle of Fifths, à la Scott Henderson, and since you get 3 in every diatonic scale and they change by one note, I think using the pattern of 5 as a subset of 7 forms a neat tool for the tonal/modal palette. Lends itself to cool sounds like a I maj 5t over a IV chord, where the I's M3rd is the IV's M7th, and possibly some subtle modulations between closely related keys. "That said, I'd of course love to hear how far you could go with your "theoretically pure" western, anhemitonic pentatonic scales." he sassed.

[@antonio.beirao]

There are wonderful approaches to these pentatonic modes in other music traditions, like Indian music or Gnawa music. Sounds beautiful! Worth exploration!

[@Zernobilly]

Japanese pentatonic scale has tritone and also has modes. It's same than Korean pentatonic (same you have here, 1 2 3 5 6) but it's minor, so 1 2 b3 5 b6.

[@elihaber5114]

I believe all three of these are used in Appalachian old time music! Though they do often rely on additional notes from outside the scale being played in the harmony

[@MartaRzehorz]

you could do maybe something about more primitive scales - tetratonic, tritonic, ditonic and monotonic?

[@danturner1331]

You cleared it up. Thanks Dan

[@ThePianofreaky]

Mccoy Tyner uses the dorian pentatonic frequently, along with fiths and quartal chords in the left hand. It sound kind of empty because of the missing third, but it's a unique and powerful sound. Another interesting thing you can do is to combine different modes of the pentatonic scales. For example, if you combine the dorian and the minor mode, you get the minor scale - the b6. It's a scale with 6 notes but without a tritone.

[@12tone]

I've never heard of them, I'll have to look them up! I'd imagine it'd sound pretty empty, almost like a chord scale for a power chord, but it's also got the 4-b7 thing going, so quartal voicings seem like a good approach!

[@mingnrich]

Doesn’t surprise me that a guitarist came up with that Dorian Pentatonic because that’s what you get when you play the frets with the dots* (*assuming your guitar doesn’t have a 1st fret dot which seems so unnecessary)

[@mingnrich]

Lead Watcher, from how I learned on classical guitar, only 7 and 12 (if it’s not a classical guitar) is necessary. Also 19 and 24 if it’s an electric and it goes to 24. (On a classical guitar you don’t need a 12th fret marker because the neck meets the body at the 12th fret and so that’s your marker)

[@eritain]

I've been thinking about a potential compositional use for these samey-sounding pentatonics. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on it. The short summary is: similar to transposing a motif into, say, parallel minor -- but with a little bit more distortion of its shape and thus a little more creative freedom. Rare is the melody, whatever scale or mode it's in, that gives equal structural importance to all the notes of that scale. Most of the time the melody's important milestones (notes it puts on downbeats, notes where it stays at the ends of phrases, etc.) all use a subset of the scale, sometimes as many as 5 of its notes but often even fewer. In other words, the melody's bones are pentatonic even if its flesh adds the characteristic notes of this mode or that. We're familiar with composers developing a motif or melody by such tricks as changing from a major to its parallel minor. The third gets lowered, and depending on natural/harmonic/melodic minor, the sixth and seventh might get lowered too. But the tonic, second, fourth, and fifth are all the same. The minor third is provocative to hear, but a lot of things about the melody are unchanged, and after a while just lowering the third sounds a bit mechanical and superficial. But what if we take the skeleton and put it in a parallel pentatonic before we flesh it out? Perhaps the milestone notes of the original are taken from the set do re mi sol la, the major pentatonic. But now we'll maybe put the skeleton into the parallel minor pentatonic -- do me fa sol le. Where the original milestone was a major 2nd, the new one is a minor 3rd; likewise where we used to hear a major third we'll now hear a fourth. (And, of course, the major 7th gets lowered, as before.) The shape of the melody is going to be recognizably similar, but the differences run a little deeper than just tweaking single scale degrees: If the original melody was fleshed out with fa between the mi and sol milestones, we now have to decide what to do about the smaller gap between the fa and sol milestones: Use the augmented fourth fi in its place, stick with fa thereby flattening the line, alter the rhythm so that the new melody doesn't really have a note corresponding to that old fa? If the original melody took it for granted that you could and should step right down from re to do, well, now there's a mite bigger gap to clear, and there's another diatonic note in between them that you might or might not choose to hit along the way. Or if the original melody played around with the chromatic note between do and re, its analogue in the new melody might be either of two chromatic notes, or (once again) the diatonic note that now intervenes, as a matter of creative judgement. Good idea? Bad idea? Fine idea but was already dreamed up long ago by Schubert or someone? Won't know till you try it? All thoughtful feedback welcome.

[@12tone]

Seems like an interesting trick! As with most musical ideas the proof will come down to what you actually do with it, of course, but I could definitely see that working well!

[@ChristianNally]

I'm just playing around here, but a quick question: How about constructing these scales in a different way... grab the major pentatonic from a parent major scale, then from that consistent set of notes build "new" scales by sticking with exactly those notes but starting with a new tonal center (as is done with modes of the major scale). e.g. 1,2,3,5,6 -> 2,3,5,6,1 etc.

[@PlayTheMind]

Without tritones, music would be a mistake.

[@12tone]

You should print that on a t-shirt. Not even kidding.

[@LimeGreenTeknii]

Or I guess you could say it would be... accidental?

[@12tone]

I literally groaned out loud. Good work.

[@TheIamtheoneandonly1]

A random limerick just to brighten your day. There once was a violinist from Rio who was seduced by a lady named Cleo. When she pulled down her panties, she said "Please no andantes, I want this allegro con brio." "Ba dum ccccchhhhhhh" Sorry, I couldn't resist it!

[@Enogimka]

+Se7enwonders could you please forgive me because I don't really get the joke you did, probably because I don't know much music theory vocabulary. But if you can help me grow my knowledge a little bit more even for a joke that would just be so cool. :)

[@mattgarbarinofitness]

Your channel is absolutely unbelievable, thank you.

[@12tone]

Aw, thanks!

[@brauliodiaz3925]

One thing I learned in composition is that you can use the pentatonic scale in the melody and still use the missing notes from the scale in the accompaniment. So if you're writing on piano you can make the chord progression on the left hand and make all kind of weird intervals and notes not even in the chord on the right hand.

[@12tone]

True! That's one way to give these some new life, and it's a great trick in general to make the melody sound nice and clean while the harmony does crazy things!

[@prettyfunbird]

I agree with some other commenters that these scales aren't pointless and don't all sound the same. I think because many of us are less used to them, we might try to hear them as more familiar, and they can sound lacking or off from that perspective (like automatically hearing 1-2-4-5-6 as a sort of wrong version of major pentatonic, or trying to think of that scale as dorian, even though, as pointed out in the video, it doesn't sound like dorian). But thinking of each as its own thing can be pretty interesting, even if it takes some getting used to and experimenting. I've found that many pentatonic scales have really unique flavors and can be exciting to use. With 1-2-4-5-6 and 1-2-4-5-b7, for example, it can be totally freeing to have a scale to experiment with that feels completely non-major and non-minor (at least to my ears). I've actually come across these scales either as the basis of songs or certain sections of songs where they're used in very satisfying ways, creating vibes that wouldn't possible with the classic major or minor pentatonic scales. I think it's also good to remember that a pentatonic scale can be any five notes. In my opinion, there's no 'cheating.' Sure, the most common pentatonic scales have a certain interval structure, but there are lots of uses of pentatonic scales that have different intervals. I came across an improvisation the other day, for example, that seemed to focus on 1-2-#4-5-7. Not a common pentatonic scale, but definitely a pentatonic scale, and one that was used beautifully.

[@zitank]

I'm pretty sure you might wanna check out the Vietnamese traditional music called "đờn ca tài tử". We have a whole system of pentatonic "modes" and they sure will interests you

[@veeraraghavuluarigela9022]

Namaste Sir,Modes of Major Pentatonic Scale:(1) Major Pentatonc Scale(2)Suspended Pentatonic (3) Minor Pentatonic #5 (4) Scootish Pentatonic (5)Minor Pentatonic.Thank you Sir.

[@Wind-nj5xz]

"Pentatonic modes may be dumb and pointless but they're my baby, my dumb pointless baby... yeah..." -12tone, 2017

[@MindsEyeVisualGuitarMethods]

It's amazing how long I was bored with the minor pentatonic rock solo sound...and tried a lot of other fancy scale idea's...never getting anything that sounded useful. Then finally I stumbled on trying the same old box, in a different place over the same old chord, and Really listening to the note choices, and viola.. new inspiration's. The box works all over the place! As you reveal here.. And if you really get to the point as a guitarist where you can visualize them, over the key you'll see that Pentatonics also overlap into other key's so they can be used as "doorway" soloing modes!

[@12tone]

Yeah! They're really flexible and useful in a soloing context. That's probably where I'd most look into actually applying them, I'm just a little sad because in that context all my beautiful math falls apart and, if I'm being honest with myself, I'm really just a mathematician who accidentally went to music school. Still, though, if you're soloing they're a great tool to keep in mind!

[@tonhueb]

Yeah, viola is such an inspiring instrument isn't it? ;P

[@WadWizard]

You want pentatonic modes? Just cycle through major pentatonic like you did ionian! Might not line up with the diatonic modes but we arent being practical here anyway

[@741231478963]

I heard that just intonation uses some simple ratios close to the actual notes in equal temperament (log tunning). I wonder if there is some scale considering other simple ratios, like the ones in the first levels of stern-brocot tree and if there is a microtonal equal-temperament system (with more than 12 notes) that contains approximations to those ratios. It would be really cool to hear chords and scales played in a system with other simple ratios never heard before.

[@ParsevalMusic]

I think you put in you channel every thing I like to now in a pretty way. you re a genius

[@12tone]

Thanks, I'm glad we could help!

[@jean951416]

I'd like to propose an methode which is able to produce the pentatonic and the major scale based on the same principle. Staking perfect fifths and than transposing all the notes into one octave will produce the pentatonic after four steps and lydian after six. This consequently also produces a "sextatonic" scale which adds the major7 to the pentatonic major scale. I think it's much smoother way to construct the pentatonic scale this way since it's musically coherent (staking the second most consonant interval) and imho allows for a deeper understanding of the connection between hepta and penta scales. Thanks alot for your videos they are insightful and funny, thumbs up!

[@12tone]

Very true! The major scale can be viewed as a stack of perfect fifths running from the 4th to the 7th, and the pentatonic scale is just what you get when you chop off the ends. Definitely a really useful way to look at it and explain what's going on. Thanks for sharing!

[@cristianlozamusic]

Good work! You get to a dead end because your approach regarding the 2 notes you take out from the scale is a tonal approach. Try seeing it in a more modal way (check Ron Miller) so that the choice of your 5 notes in every mode makes much more sense and represents their colour far better. Really like theory too!

[@ultrium2000]

Thank you for the video. I am a beginner and I was wondering why I could not find any fine any thing on modes in the pentatonic scales. If melodic minor and harmonic minor have them, why not the pentatonic scales. What about the blues scales? The major blues and minor blues have the same relationship and the major scale and minor scale. I was playing around and this is what I came up with. The unknown is base on starting on the ♭3 on the major scale. Blues Major 1 2 ♭3 3 5 6 Blues Minor 1 ♭3 4 ♭5 5 ♭7 Blues Dorian 1 ♭2 2 4 5 ♭7 Blues Phrygian 1 ♭3 4 ♭6 ♭7 7 Blues Mixolydian 1 2 4 5 ♭6 6 Blue Unknown 1 ♭2 3 #4 6 7 Come As You Are by Nirvana is as I believe is in D Blues Dorian.

[@JS-dt1tn]

You should check out Jerry Bergonzi's pentatonic studies. b2 and b6 pentatonics. Really opened up some sounds.

[@12tone]

Will do, thanks!

[@krang07]

would you consider making a video on the strum stick, or whatever its called. a small stringed instrument with oddly spaced frets where, when tuned right, any fretted note goes along with any other fretted note. no wrong notes. maybe show how that's possiblewith your ingenious analysis.

[@12tone]

Interesting, I've never heard of that but I'll look into it!

[@jimmymaguire2488]

Sooooooo good! I was tripping trying to map out that Dorian pentatonic on the fretboard and was like, this just the relative Mixolidian lol thanks heaps

[@asimpletune]

I'm late to this, but this is done on piano without any of the issues raised here. The solution is to actual spread the mode you want to play across 3 groupings of pentatonic scale, with each grouping a perfect 5th apart. This is demonstrated in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpC5pZmGobSGbac If you start with each note of the dorian scale, play 3 groupings of the pentatonic scale, each grouping separated by perfect fifths, and do that for each note in dorian scale, you can actually play every mode using only minor pentatonic shapes. It's wild but true.

[@zombiedude347]

Additional property of the major/minor pentatonic scales is that they can be played only on the black keys of a piano.

[@MaharshiBhaduriMusic]

Why are we removing both the tritones? Won't removing one work just as well at eliminating tension, since the other is not there?

[@12tone]

True, but there's also a lot of tension in the half-steps, and the two notes in the tritone are also each a half-step away from another scale degree.

[@Wind-nj5xz]

That's basically what major and minor hexatonic scales do, major hexatonic removes the 7th while minor hexatonic removes the 6th

[@DJBuell]

Seriously, that was fun!

[@pandoradoggle]

Do you get anything different if you construct the pentatonic modes in the same way you do the dodecatonic(?) modes? You know, just start on each successive note until you come back around?

[@ChristopherSaraga]

I loved your quote about practicality for performance not theory LOL GREAT STUFF!

[@12tone]

Thanks!

[@innocentoctave]

An interesting video. You're the first person I've encountered who's tackled head-on the problem of alternative constructions of pentatonic modes. I see their origins as more rooted in improvising performance practice than in theory, so I'd prefer the versions that retain the tritone and/or a semitone where that is characteristic of the mode. Many of the pentatonics in your versions have a 'suspended' feel to them, which may account for their similarity to the ear. There might be room here for a theory of the usefulness - in improvisation over rapidly changing harmony - of scales that have no strong tonic tendencies.

[@12tone]

Yeah, I think in practice the ones with some dissonance to them are just more useful. As for the second thing, that's an interesting point, I'll have to look into it more!

[@threee1298]

just found your channel, this is great I love your style

[@12tone]

Aw, thanks!

[@alifmustaqim7149]

I have no idea what you've been talking about but i watch everything in this series regardless...

[@drins.ishmaku9483]

Me thinks you didn't touch on the subject of playing pentatonics whose root is disassociated wirh the chord. Example: Dmaj/Bmin pent over Cmaj (lydian) , or Bbmin/Dbmaj pent over Cmin (phrygian) :). That way can we use familiar shapes to modalise a chord?

[@ArjunBahuguna]

Perhaps your best vid. Keep up the good work!

[@12tone]

Thanks!

[@ealingschoolofdrums3692]

Fantastic, I feel so much better about trying to work Theory out now, (and failing much of the time). Thank you :-)

[@colonelsanders1617]

I really thought it would be taking the pentatonic scales and doing the same thing as you would to get the modes of a 7 note scale. So like “D Dorian pentatonic” would be D E G A C D

[@JSGH-JOE]

Awesome! Thank you, this content is so inspiring.

[@mychannel594]

So heartwarming

[@deltahedron606]

I've had this question for about a day and the answer seems like it should be obvious but i really don't know. Consider a major scale, say C major. A major pentatonic scale can be created by moving up/down a tritone and using all of the notes outside the given scale, so C chromatic + a tritone - c major = F# major. This works for all the modes except Locrian and Lydian bc natural tritone duh. Is there anyone that can tell my why this is the case? Also Dorian pentatonic is more Dorian to me than that substitution because of it's symmetry and lack of quality. Dorian is the most natural scale and having the 3 and the 6 providing counterbalancing qualities is, whilst really cool, kinda unpleasing. Removing them just makes Dorian pentatonic pretty much the most natural scale you can get without turning it into more of an arpeggio.

[@12tone]

The short answer is that, if you look at two major scales with roots a tritone apart, the two notes they share are their 4th and 7th degrees. For instance, in C major, you've got F and B, while in F# major you've got B and E#. (Or, equivalently, F.) This happens because, to move from C major to F# major, you transpose each note up a tritone, and so the only common tones will be notes that are a tritone away from another note in the same key. Anyway, once you have that, turning one of those scales into a major pentatonic means removing the 4th and 7th, which leaves you with all the notes that aren't in the other scale.

[@deltahedron606]

12tone thank you so much, I knew the answer would be simpler than what I was looking for

[@Supersmileyluv]

I LOVE YOUR VIDEOS they are so interesting! I always learn a lot, thank you so much! :)

[@12tone]

Aw, thanks!

[@Joseph-zd2hf]

Thank you. it helps a lot

[@1MU51C4L]

Wow. Great video. When I saw the thumbnail, I thought you were going to discuss about the modes of the Major Pentatonic (or the Minor Pentatonic, well they're modes of each other, so yeah, it's the same thing anyways) scale but you discussed about the Pentatonic scales built on the modes of the Major scale, which I believe is kinda not right (now before you think of anything, I'm not at all as experienced or knowledgeable as you when it comes to music theory, but with what knowledge and experience I've got, this is what I thought) as these aren't actually "Pentatonic Modes" but Pentatonic scales of the Major modes, like how if we say the Major Modes, we refer to the Ionian, the Dorian and so on. Now this is one concept I had in mind - the modes of the Major Pentatonic scale. These do not fit into the two rules of a Pentatonic scale as mentioned by you, I mean these certainly do not have a tritone between their notes (as they have the same notes as that of a Major Pentatonic scale) but they don't follow the other rule, i.e. all though they have the root but they don't certainly have the 3rd and the 5th, both. For example, here's the C Major Pentatonic scale: C D E G A The 3 modes other than the A Minor Pentatonic scale (because it has its own name and also fits into the rules) will be (don't know the names, ofcourse): D E G A C (has the 5th - A but not any 3rd - F or F#), E G A C D (has the minor 3rd - G but not the 5th - B), G A C D E (has the 5th - B but not any 3rd - Bb or B) What are your views on this? And how can we use them, if at all? Thanks.

[@owem6511]

what if you started the pentatonic scale on different notes and got different "modes" of the pentatonic scale that way?

[@anirudhsilai5790]

then the 2nd mode of major pentatonic would be dorian pentatonic, third mode would be phrygian pentatonic, fifth mode would be mixolydian pentatonic, and 6th mode would be aeolian pentatonic, paralleling the heptatonic scales.

[@letsnotgothere6242]

Well in C pentatonic we can use F major in the harmony even though there's no F in the scale, and GM even though there's no B. So that jazz guy has a point that you, as a theorist, can still take. Problem solved!

[@sbennettyt]

When I read the title I watched this video to comment that pentatonic scales are (mostly) mode agnostic. Well you pointed it out for me. Anyone who thinks they are playing modal with a pentatonic scale is fooling themselves.

[@moistness482]

4:22 wasnt this video called theory in practice

[@etherealessence]

I'm surprised the sound of music didn't issue a copyright claim

[@theweepingdebbies]

I love your videos! Thank you so much for doing what you do. I would say one negative thing about your videos is you seem to spend some seconds drawing things that seem kindof irrelevant to the point at hand which can be a bit distracting. You also sometimes move super fast through some pretty advanced points which can be tough to keep up with. But other than that keep it up please!!

[@p3porro]

Bernstein in his Norton lectures talks about those "Pentatonic Modes" as each being part of a different culture

[@12tone]

Interesting! I did some searching around in preparation for this episode and didn't find anything from Bernstein, so I'll have to look it up, thanks!

[@maxblechman2665]

I've figured out a weird pentatonic scale: C E F G Ab C It follows all the rules and is kinda cool. Have musicians pinned it down yet?

[@12tone]

It doesn't quite follow all the rules: Normally pentatonics don't have any half-steps, and you've got one between E and F. That's not to say that it's bad or wrong, of course: It's kinda like Mixolydian but without the 2 and 6. Thanks for sharing!

[@faxisthefox]

I was just musing about this in my head - what if modes had pentatonic scales... hilarious

[@TheMadisonHang]

why did you just use 1,2,3,5,6 scale degress for all modes?

[@heyman3752]

lol! 😂 that ain't cheating! it's an approach/method! it's a choice... people come up with this so you can have new pathways.. & sometimes you only need a few notes just to make it happen & sound right.. try the modal pentatonic impositions.. that's real good.. example: E lydian - Eb minor pentatonic you just have to shuffle the notes again so you could come up with notes that include those important modal color tones on board... 😉

[@sehz1789]

Thanks a lot for these..

[@12tone]

^_^

[@Exploshi]

Why not just reorder the notes of the minor pentatonic scale?

[@arzi.studio]

We used a lot on every our Javanese (Indonesia) traditional songs.. Just check'em..

[@insanedrummer89]

Interesting man.

[@user-pu3nl2yz7e]

thx man

[@12tone]

Thanks!

[@Psyphertunes]

keep up the great work :)

[@12tone]

Thanks!

[@columbus8myhw]

I liked that Phrygian pentatonic.

[@12tone]

^_^

[@RipzOnNubes]

I feel like this conversation needs to move into altered pentatonic scales!

[@12tone]

I'll look into them!

[@ДмитрийБаженов-ш6т]

I've noticed that traditional pentatonic songs mostly have no distinct root tone at all

[@MuzikBike]

Isn't major the same as ionian?

[@AMReed8]

Muzik Bike Yes.

[@12tone]

Yep! I tried to work that in but couldn't get it to fit smoothly, and I decided it wasn't important enough in this context to be worth interrupting the flow of the episode for, but yes, totally the same thing.

[@keinname1896]

That is quite interesting, because I have been teached that it depends on the context and that they are actually not the same thing. If you are in an modal context you speak of ionian and if you are using functional harmonic you speak of major. The inionian scale and the major scale are the same, but ionian and major are actually differently used. So ionian is the mode and major is the ?tonality? I have no clue how to put that in english, tho. Maybe it's just a german thing.

[@12tone]

That's true too! The scales are identical, but there are certain times when it would be more correct to refer to it as Ionian and others where it'd be more correct to call it Major. It's kind of like how you shouldn't call the third degree of an A major triad "Db" even though it sounds the same. I glossed over that here because I think, in this context, that distinction isn't really relevant, but it's certainly worth keeping in mind.

[@keinname1896]

Even the thought of calling the third of an A major triad "Db" had me cringing quite hard right now, haha. Yeah, you are completly right, in this context it isn't really relevant. I was just genuinely interested if these terms are more interchangeably used and more fluid among english speaking theorists. Cheers!

[@ttc1045]

Isn't this the same as the Chinese pentatonic modes? It's just the modes of the major pentatonic scale (gondiao), and since all the other pentatonic modes are derived from gondiao and gondiao was created by removing the tritone, then you're only going to be able to create the modes that exist as degrees of gondiao, which then excludes which ever scales that start with a tritone between the 1st degree and which ever other degree above it

[@nichivaikuse890]

I should try this with some exotic scales

[@12tone]

Yeah, you can get some pretty crazy stuff out of modes. We did a video a while back about all the modes of harmonic and melodic minor (kzbin.info/www/bejne/h5naepd4g6t2h68 ) if you're looking for a few to get started with!

[@yinchenxu5249]

it seems that you are looking for a scale that sounds both relaxed and exciting.

[@12tone]

Perhaps... I think it's more relaxed and novel than anything. The problem with the results is that they're mostly just the same sound as the original pentatonic scales. You can't really tell the difference.

[@anirudhsilai5790]

It's basically just all the scales with just the black keys

[@Roxanneredpanda]

Pentotonics and modes... this is literally all my guitar techniques

[@avielp]

That's only the bit of it you know to put to words easily!

[@estoy1001]

...as well as SirMixaLottian... it has big scales, and it does not lie.... ...yep, I'll be over here.....