BEST BUY ? Cheap grand piano or Expensive keyboard

James responds to a question of what lower end piano is best in a most unusual way. Also, James states he uses a Boss RC 500, but it really is a Boss RC 300. For the keyboard amp we use a Roland KC 350 and we like that model, but find the smaller Roland Keyboard amps to have a lot of hiss and generally lessor quality sound.

[@Deeznutsmynamejeff21]

I’ve played on new high end Clavinova’s and the action does not feel right at all, no matter how hard they try to replicate the sound and and feel, there is always some magic to a grand

[@ThePianoforever]

I played some at the 2019 NAMM show and felt that the actions were just a bit too light to my taste. If they were a bit more heavy and substantial, they would feel much more realistic.

[@nabilyassin1742]

or if you are poor use piano app on phone

[@Roy_100Malaeb]

Nabil Yassin ... u do know u cant use both hands or actually learn a piece on an ipad

[@joonajokiniemi2581]

@@Roy_100Malaeb r/woooosh

[@Joshuamedina2005]

@@Roy_100Malaeb wait really no way bro my life is a lie

[@dudeonthepiano9762]

Cheap Grand any day of the week! I went from a Yamaha Digital Clavinova 525 to a Yamaha U1TA Upright Transacoustic, and then (down) to a Hardman 4'8" Baby Grand. Absolutely nothing compares to the finesse of a Grand of any size when compared to digital and uprights. Being that I am still a beginner pianist, I could settle fortheHardman in lieu of a Baldwin, Perzina, or Kawai for now. However, when I advance to intermediate level or so I'll probably upgrade by trading in the Hardman and Transacoustic for a finer Baby Grand but it will be used and very reputable for holding it's tune.

[@44nk96]

Low end piano is 17-20 thousand dollars? Here I am thinking those are the expensive ones!!! Compared to a concert grand yes they are a steal, but low end I thought you would say $5k and under?

[@ghollisjr]

Katarina S Yes I think he's only talking about grand pianos, because uprights can be much cheaper like the $5k you mentioned. But for a concert pianist, the upright is kind of like half a piano due to 1. Much slower key action, which makes some music impossible to play at full speed, 2. Missing mechanisms, like the middle pedal, 3. Large difference in force required to play at the front and back edges of each key due to the length of keys and difference of mechanism. I still like uprights but I understand their limitations.

[@ambulance_boy3834]

I have a Yamaha p45 and absolutely love the feel and the sound! It also isnt crazy expensive.

[@Rudy_gil1]

Same it’s an amazing piano for a beginner, I’m still going to keep mine even if I end up getting a grand piano, because it’s still a great piano to teach others.

[@marcoscorsolini8803]

A piano is a piano, a keyboard is a keyboard. The best vegan burger still isn't a burger, though tasty.

[@eliasknaapinen]

I agree with your point, although a piano is a keyboard instrument as well. I have both a Nord Stage 3 and a beat up baby grand I got from a local school for free. Needs tuning and hammer filing but it's still a piano.

[@ryano.5149]

I disagree, mainly because of the second-hand market. Second-hand (possibly even 3rd or 4th hand) instruments can be had for quite reasonable prices. Also, I have never touched a keyboard that inspired me to play it...and I work in a music store, so I've had my hands on some nice ones. A few years ago, I picked up a 1966 Janssen baby grand for a ridiculous price, had a lady in a NYC piano showroom practically laugh me out of the building at the mention of the brand when I tried to figure out how old the piano was, and admittedly the piano will be due for a rebuild in the not-so-distant future. HOWEVER it holds a tune, and even though I'm not a great pianist, this piano makes me WANT to sit down and play it! It sounds quite nice! The soundboard has no flaws. The action isn't a Steinway, but it's pretty darn good for a 52 year old piano! Even if the opportunity arose to grab a Steinway or something, I don't think I'd have the heart to part with this Janssen. I mean, as far as pianos go, on paper, that piano is virtually worthless, but I think I'll get it rebuilt when the time comes anyway. I like it, it has character, and though well-played in, is otherwise a perfectly good piano! ...anyway, long story short, my point is second-hand pianos are your friends!

[@MTCserver]

Keyboard will never have the dynamic to the real piano, and also cannot feel the actions

[@Dedadalida]

MTV server_____you are wrong Yamaha made plenty of keyboards that has a hammer weighted action like Yamaha p45,105,125,dgx 620and counting on please don't enter a castle until you are sure of it

[@ihavenolife8651]

@Reno technically yes, but the ones mentioned in the video and being referred to here are also digital pianos. Most keyboards and synths aren't meant to be replacement pianos, they're similar but entirely different instruments.

[@irishman4671]

I am 46 and just starting to learn how to play the piano - I cant even read music. I did buy a keyboard to help me start, but really would like a baby grand. Not only for that "real" piano feel and sound, but also because it would look great in my home. 🙂

[@RobHoffman83]

When you shop, play both soft and loud. A poor action like he's talking about won't have the range and it will wear you out playing it.

[@ridgero]

I started with a Yamaha CLP 230. A few months later I was blown away by the physical feedback from a real Yamaha Piano. Now I have a Yamaha U1 and I‘m pretty satisfied, a baby grand would have been to much for my flat.

[@Bernibanez]

Cool subject! I started out with a Clavinova, but was dying for a real piano sound. Now I have a Ritmuller 188 from 2008 (Chinese). The sound is very warm, good for small spacs, but the action is a little firm. I suppose that is good for someone learning to play.

[@ThePianoforever]

Yes and no. I have played on some O.K. Ritmullers, but I always play slower songs. The Ritmuller comes with a Renner action, but not all Renner actions are created equal. Renner makes the parts, but the design is almost, if not always the piano makers. It also depends on how many hours went into regulating the action and lessor priced pianos are generally not as well regulated. You can almost always tell what I think of the action by the piece I choose to play, the harder the piece the better the action.

[@dadautube]

@ Bernardo subject!: never played a Chinese piano yet but i did play the Soviet Petrof in the 1970s in a piano class a couple of times when i was only 15 or 16 years old and man, its keys were SO stiff and hard for my fingers back in the day ... it became even more obvious as i already had a British Challen console piano that is famous for its super-light keys and i felt so comfortable with it ...

[@JasonBryantGreen]

You can find several grands for under $10,000. Used Yamaha g1 to even c2......just have to search possibly buy from private seller vs. dealer.

[@DavidArdittiComposer]

I agree some of the Chinese grand actions are very gluey and just can’t be played fast. However, some are OK. I’d advise anyone who is enthusiastic about playing to try a lot of different options before deciding. I’d always advise going for an acoustic piano, as most people find them far more psycho-physically satisfying to play. However, very poor uprights are not worth it. Good uprights are more satisfying than electrics, but more expensive. Decent grands are better still. I had a period when I only had a high-end Clavinova to play on, and I didn’t enjoy that, it seemed so artificial and shallow compared to an acoustic. However, now I have a good grand and a reasonable upright as well, the same Clavinova seems to me quite nice to play from time to time, as a contrast to them. It’s physically a bit easier. So I think an electric is ideal as a second or third instrument, not as an only instrument. If you are interested in playing baroque, the Clavinovas do excellent harpsichord sounds.

[@larrycrenshaw9072]

Thank you for doing your videos. I greatly appreciate and enjoy learning from them, and I often share them with my other keyboardist friends & family. This one particularly enlightening about low end pionos vs high end keyboards.

[@Topdoginuk]

Great advice you've given. I have a Yamaha Clavinova but wanted a portable digital piano so, ordered one today. The Yamaha P-125 for £450. It's just to take away on a group holiday. I'll look to get a professional one later then, eventually, get a Steinway when I make room and, get good enough to play it! Thanks for advice on your video though.

[@hahnda7]

James, What do you think of the Yamaha GC1? Its list price is $23,999. We thought it sounds a lot better than the lower end Kawai grand pianos. And the action was better. The GC1 seems like it would be better than a hybrid. Also how would you compare the Kawai MP11 to the Casio GP500 Hybrid?

[@gdhone2371]

Thanks for the high level but extremely understandable advise!

[@ThePianoforever]

I am just so glad to be able to share.

[@prestige2000rider]

good points James. It really is that age old question. My take is always learning the touch first. Which you will always realize on a Acoustic. From the learning standpoint, its like the comparison to the guitar, where you would always start a person on acoustic first... to learn that touch and finese. Then go to a electric. But to contradict myself, i think the Yamaha P 500 Clavinova has the best grrand sounds iver ever heard out a digital. Still pricey, lol. But great vid !

[@Beyondabsence]

James, thank you again for your refreshing videos. A question, in 2 years I want to get a grand. I have a lovely Schimmel upright and the sound is very inspiring. However, my next move will be a grand. My budget will be up to 30K. No Yamahas or Kawais ( lol) , as I played too many of those at Berklee College years ago and it is a definitely no. I love the warm and difuse sound of a good Steinway, Baldwin, and Mason and Hamlin. Realistically, of course, within my budget, do you have suggestions on what to look for? Size, brands, etc? I trust your knowledge and ears more than many other experts I know. Thank you!

[@ThePianoforever]

Guscaldas3, Of course $30,000 is a lot of money, but the best new pianos cost a lot more. I would look for a lightly played high level used piano in the mid grand size. We found an underplayed Schiedmayer from the late 1990's They made very few of of the Schiedmayer during that time as it was designed by Schiedmayer, but made by Kawai with a Renner action and Bavarian soundboard (very warm). They were basically unknown here in the states and we were able to get a super deal on ours that was just used as a piece of furniture ($12,000.00). There has been a Charles Walter on ebay for months and we almost went to see it before we found our Schiedmayer 183. www.ebay.com/itm/Signed-Charles-R-Walter-Grand-Piano/161865650046?hash=item25aff1cf7e:g:pTwAAOSw~gRV301v So it is possible to get a great used piano in the $12,000.00 - 20,000.00 range.

[@Beyondabsence]

ThePianoforever Truly greatful for your advice James! Yes, I am aware that it would be easier if budget was not a problem( LOL), but now I feel more hopeful that getting a used grand with a nice touch and warm sound is possible. I think the approach will be to have no anxiety and slowly look for one ( the piano will find me!) . Since the upright I have brings inspiration and desire to play, searching becomes a less desperate move. Will look into the brands you mention. Keep up the great instructive videos. Regards

[@colinmurphy2214]

guscaldas3 Since you have quite a nice budget you have a lot of options. The used market is definitely what you should be looking at, either at stores or with craigslist (which I believe to be fantastic for your purposes, it’s how I got my grand!) If you are looking to get a nice 1990s Steinway or something like that then you would get many more years of excellence out of it but I would encourage you to find an antique instrument. There are tons of gorgeous antique and vintage instruments for sale on Craigslist for pennies. My piano is a 1903 Baldwin model B and I only paid $3,000 for the piano, including moving. With your budget, if you found a piano like mine and put the remaining 27,000 into restoration you could have amazing quality of tone and construction (if you get the right company, both you and your technician will be blown away with the quality of the instruments you find, like ridiculously well made stuff) on the antique market (1880s-1930s) look for names like Weber, Steinway, Baldwin, Mason and Hamlin, Chickering, Knabe and Mathushek. These instruments are crafted from incredible woods, because at the time we were still using the wood from prehistoric forests native to North America, and triple thickness veneers of ribbon mahogany, rosewood, ebony and burled woods are not uncommon. So what I’m really talking about here is buying an inexpensive antique piano and restoring it to its original grandeur. Back then you could easily pay as much for a Baldwin, Weber or Steinway as you would on a large home. Solid brass Hardware was standard, and cast iron was used in every place they could get it so the integrity of the instruments can be preserved through the years. A technician would have to inspect the pianos you consider buying to make sure the soundboard still has crown and whatnot, but if it does, with your budget you can replace all the action parts so it functions like new (I’d recommend Wessell, Nickel and Gross company for action parts) get a new pin block so it holds tune like new, and get the case refinished. You’ll have to remember when looking at pianos to look through the dust and fading and imagine how it will look after being restored. My piano was really, really faded when I got it, but I didn’t actually realize that, so one day I applied a wax and oil to the case and *BOOM* all the sudden I was staring at this gorgeous deep, rich mahogany with vivid black stripes and an amazing elegance that completely rejuvenated the general vibe of the piano. Sorry I made this so long, I don’t even know if you’ll read it! Lol, but here’s a link to the antique piano shop, browse around and see what old pianos look and sound like after $30,000 of work: antiquepianoshop.com/

[@musikone1780]

guscaldas3, I'm not sure why you are holding back and limiting yourself. Stop this peddling around. Step up to the plate and get a Bosendorfer Imperial Grand Piano.

[@t04v7]

Have you seen what Ravenscroft is doing with the Kawai VPC1?

[@ThePianoforever]

Yes. They have had that at NAMM for several years. It had a great action, but hard to tell about the sound at NAMM.

[@t04v7]

I agree. What's your impression of the MP-11 and VPC1 actions (they are only slightly different) in terms of practicing on those digital pianos and then moving to a well-regulated grand action? I feel like the biggest caveat with some high end digital and hybrid pianos is that they don't simulate a grand action well enough to make transition to a concert instrument a smooth process (eg., Yamaha N1/2/3).

[@ThePianoforever]

I have had no problem with that transition. In fact I played a MP-11 at NAMM 17, and practiced on a piece until I was ready to perform on a concert grand, and at that point sat down at the concert grand with no additional practice and this was the actual recording of that performance. The first time I touched the keys of this concert grand was at the beginning of this recording, yes they are now that good. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m569f3h8oMhphbM There is just a hairs bit of difference between the Kawai MP-11 and the feel of Korg SV1-88, but the MP-11 is at a premium price (about $1,000.00 more).

[@dannydepasquale6394]

Was the piano with the silver plate and nickel hardware a Knabe? I was hoping these were a little higher rated. Is this not the case?

[@ThePianoforever]

As I remember it I believe it was a Pearl River piano. New Knabe pianos are made by Samick, but generally fall into the lower end of pianos. I have played of couple of newer Knabe pianos and I would rate them a 4 out out of a 10. I did find a Samick concert grand that was really high quality, but that was only because it was a concert grand with a Renner action and built during a time when Samick really wanted to be a contender in the concert grand market. Here is a link to the Samick concert grand. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mWLGnJmnhcZ2gbs

[@ThePianoforever]

Of course if you are in the market for a high level piano you can always choose the used option as we have twice recently. I just did a search and found this very nice looking Charles Walter piano on ebay. We have not checked out this piano in any way, but we have always found the 6'4" to be an excellent piano and for the asking price we believe this might be an excellent option for someone wanting a high level piano with a Renner action and a harp made by the same people that made Steinways . www.ebay.com/itm/Signed-Charles-R-Walter-Grand-Piano/161865650046?hash=item25aff1cf7e:g:pTwAAOSw~gRV301v

[@JitinMisra]

1,) at what price point (price for new and price for used), do you think the grand piano actions become good, where digital piano action is NOT the better option? 2.)Also, what type of music\songs you think are good to learn so i can test the keyboard actions? So this way i make the right choice long term ?(i have a digital only, yamaha p155)

[@ThePianoforever]

It is not honestly a given price, but more the level of performer that must be considered. For the high level player the Korg SV1-88 (I paid $1,400 for the one I own new) will out perform most any grand piano up to about a Charles Walter 6'4" grand piano (about $20,000 used). People will hate me for saying this, but what the heck the truth is the truth. There are some decent uprights, and I have not included them in this comparison because it would get too involved.

[@ThePianoforever]

As far as the music you should be performing on a test piano, I would say that would be quite simple really, play the music you would like to perform. If you plan on becoming a better player in the future have someone try it out who is the level of player you wish to become (not the salesman).

[@JitinMisra]

I have my heart set on either Yamaha p515 nwx action or Grandfeel2 in ca78 kawai, I also like kawai es8, but I feel nervous about kawai brands digital piano durability. How much and how long have you play on your mp11 and has it been reliable?

[@JitinMisra]

also, what do you think Yamaha digital piano actions like graded hammer p120\p155\p255 or actions in clp645 series (nwx)?

[@nicogibra]

what do you think about the Yamaha p 515 ??? its new in the market but it seems pretty nice, they took the keyboard of the Clavinova and has the same feeling when you play it.

[@ThePianoforever]

Sorry, but I have not reviewed that Keyboard yet.

[@abstractbybrian]

I'm an absolute beginner and I'm learning on a Roland KR-577. Once I get better I want to move up to the Kawai MP11SE or what do you think of the Kawai 5'10'' Grand Piano KG-2A (about $10,000)

[@ThePianoforever]

The mp-11 is a very good keyboard, but honestly overpriced. I decided to go with the Korg SV1-88, and have loved every minute of playing it. I ended up paying about half what I would have paid for the MP-11 and it has these killer 70's sounds as well. We are not fans of Kawai's lower lines of pianos, we feel most pianos in that range suffer greatly. I would recommend getting a quality keyboard and saving up for a used Charles Walter 6'4".

[@WarrenPostma]

I guess opinions vary on Kawaii's lower end ranges. I have met some people who think they're quite good pianos.

[@noahbaatz6115]

Roland Gp-607

[@ogdenlane3199]

Very enjoyable ....

[@bobsykes]

This makes complete and total sense. Thank you!

[@nabilyassin1742]

but with a keyboard you can change sound like to a recorder or a violin which is always cool