Finding Every Warhammer 40K Faction's Oldest Model

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

For those looking for a few more hours of content this week, here's a link to the Patreon to get your secret episode link: www.patreon.com/SolelySingleton The google doc we used to help make this episode: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/123mjQsYY-8UvsYJLV-ZkazjbsWrLCvVbuhvKKVPchlw/ Berilio actually found one of the wikis has a page that works sorta like what we want, though good luck finding it through a google search: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures

[@malal6512]

EY!! F you, no one talks about my sweet hideous baby boy the Defiler! Its got so much rizz you whish you had a single ounce it does. WHO ELSE CAN SAY THEY HAVE A GIANT ROBOT CRAB TANK!? WHHOOO I SAY WHHOOO!!! nah but love your guy's content its great, from one Thousand Sons player to another.

[@aliendilo3105]

When you mentioned the fact that you had trouble finding the models and dates I immediately thought of the Lexicanum, it's surprisingly comprehensive.

[@apstromxtalt7175]

@@aliendilo3105 Yeah I was surprised that they missed the lexicanum

[@Mistheart101]

I so desperately want GW to have some kind of like, archive page showing all of the old models. Static images *and* those fancy rotatable images.

[@gymcelsocialism]

They'd have the same problem that modern car makers have: if the old stuff is liked more people won't buy the new stuff. That's why new Forza games stopped including classic JDM cars, because companies didn't like that they're entire range was comprised of cars from the 80s and 90s (because they don't make good cars anymore and need to hide that fact.)

[@FrantasticFran]

Yeah when I was starting out it was a major pain to look up out of print kits....

[@aro480_]

​@@gymcelsocialism With Forza thing, they will add those cars later most likely. It's padding the game for fake longevity and a way to sell DLCs. Forza has been doing this for years, that's also the reason why you don't carry your collection between games (The Crew did it just fine in Motorfest)

[@superblobfish2567]

This is a classic response to any idea someone has for anything in Warhammer ever, but GW did used to have that on the old website for each army's page, (like, the pre-2007 one, so the old old one), it would be nice if they brought it back

[@Mistheart101]

@@superblobfish2567 Oh yeah, I think I've seen an archive of that from a link on the Lexicanum (I believe it was an old gallery of Space Marine minis painted up as various chapters, including some that are more obscure nowadays)

[@rookcapcoldblood2618]

So you're telling me... that when Dawn of War released... someone could very believably be excited... to play with the *NEW* Land Raider and Predator tanks... Fuck me...

[@gallusdomesticuskfptechpriest]

...so, me. I feel old now

[@vxicepickxv]

Dawn of War is older than the plastic baneblade.

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

This is the best comparison date wise, I didn't even think of that.

[@Sir_PinkPirate]

Yeah we where. The new Land Raider was hype as fuck at the time.

[@FlatScreenNinja]

Yes we were, I remember seeing it in white dwarf then saving up all my allowance to get it on release

[@OGXenos]

Almost a shame World Eaters just got their range update because I believe prior to the new box, the Khorne Berzerkers had the honor of being THE OLDEST plastic kit in all of 40k at a ludicrous 25 years old.

[@libletvi9060]

I think the Eldar Vyper might have them beat by 1 year. And that model is still being sold =D

[@guyperson7487]

@@libletvi9060for some reason I thought it was warp spiders

[@Sneaker3719]

Technically that kit would've been 24 years old at the time of its retirement. Released in 1999, and then retired in Feb 2023.

[@ravensshade]

@@guyperson7487 warp spiders are still metal aren't they?

[@guyperson7487]

@@ravensshade yup :(. And all the phoenix lords + fire dragons. And you’d be surprised how old the wave serpent is, but it holds up shockingly well

[@luketfer]

Fun fact they also keep selling the old boys kit because other older kits don't work without it. For example the Lootas actually require you to buy the old boys kit because otherwise the Spanners are missing the arm they need for the Rokkit Launcha and the instructions *literally tell you to buy the old Ork Boyz kit*. Thus we'd need a full range Refresh on the old Boys kit (not monopose), Lootas/Burnas and the Nobz kit (which is half of a Boyz sprue with an upgrade sprue in there).

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

Wow, I didn't actually know that. Eric even owns Lootas that were just never built.

[@mineneeley3553]

What part of the nobz kit is half of a boyz sprue? Nobz are entirely separate from the boyz kit.

[@timiturret148]

The old Ork boyz also look much better than these new ones. Same with the tanks of SM, I hate all these new floaty tanks, doesnt look like the imperium.

[@Bluecho4]

This might explain why a multi-pose Ork update didn't materialize with the latest revamp. They got as far as making the new Boyz monopose kit. They were all set to put a multi-pose kit into production, much like Sisters of Battle got after their initial revamp. But then someone at the company pointed out that you NEED the old Boyz kit to make multiple other kits functional. And management got sticker shock when they realized a full new Boyz kit would ALSO, by necessity, need to coincide with new Loota/Burna and Nobz and other Ork staples. So the entire plan, beyond the monopose kit, got scrapped.

[@Coraxery]

Hey but look at all those brand new AoS orcs! They look so sweet don't they? LOL

[@FenceNA]

Ah I see, models older than me. A classic

[@martymiarty5078]

Damn, I was just about to comment "Time to see which models predate me." lol.

[@klaykid117]

It's actually impressive how long some of these models have been around because of someone born in 1994. It's amazing that there are few models that are still older then me

[@Montyandrew45]

40 minutes in and nothing is older than me as of yet....

[@Banthisyoutube-zs6sx]

If they think this is old tamiya's tank molds would give them a stroke. Nothing like seeing a 1976 mold date

[@foehammer9910]

"What will you have in 500 years?" "Warp spiders, ill have warp spiders"

[@stevencarr5294]

Think, GeeDubs, think!

[@mrcamo2usir]

Thousand Sons marines in lore are 30k marines who got turned to dust, so I can live with my short kings being lore accurate in scale

[@aziouss2863]

They have alot of wizards. I am sure one of them can cast "Leg lengthening surgery" and "Steroid abuse" or some desperate Redpill shit like that.

[@draketurtle4169]

@@aziouss2863well there leader seems hellbent on casting spells from daddies diary that he specifically tells them not to cast… yet everytime he does it.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

You can't get rid of Ezekiel because he's 'holder of the keys' and is thus THE POPE

[@Aye-Eye]

He holds the keys to the GW office so they literally can't get rid of him

[@josepheastham9717]

The Pope, holding onto the book of salvation

[@klaykid117]

That must be the reason why he's made of metal. He's literally the key to the GW office that they give out he has to be metal so he can fit perfectly in the The slot

[@EnclaveHellfireTrooperB-025]

yeah, his anti chaos 2+ in melee absolutely slaps.

[@Izayoink_Saccuy]

​@@Aye-Eyeyou need to shove him into the door's key hole to unlock the door

[@thefluffalo]

Idea: Grading every faction's most expensive model (titans not included)

[@wolf-xf6hf]

Yesssss

[@robouteguilliman3618]

Much cool, do this :)

[@sovereignet6629]

That’s cool and they can maybe add of all time too

[@20frog]

Expensive as in points or money?

[@Skykid3307]

​@20frog Often times, the points and money cost are the highest. Example, Baneblade.

[@ericcond]

the carnifex has held up very well in my opinion, in fact I think that most old tyranids have held up through the years!

[@brothertobias]

I agree. All the hive tyrant needs to do in my opinion is be a little bit bigger. Just take the same sprue and mspaint drag it to 120%

[@yaribekkering-jr1hq]

and the ones that didnt hold up got updated (except raveners maybe)

[@delilahfox3427]

I like old tyranid monsters. Old gaunts are also pretty okay. The mew models are so good, but the old stuff is not awful. The fexes are a decent kit.

[@ericcond]

@@delilahfox3427 I agree, the old termagaunts looked a little derpy, you can still see a bit of that derpyness in the gargoyles

[@jazzy4830]

Honestly several of the new 'Nid models look worse than the old stuff, the new Screamer-killer is just heinous for example, (and I get that it's based on the even older carnifex sculpts). I think they went a little too far towards the generic more humanoid look of the post-primaris era, it would have been nice to get more of that insectoid+ hooves look that I think was pretty unique. I just think I may not be a fan of the new design team/guidelines over at GW.

[@dibblemcbibble2787]

Saint Celestine was released as part of the Gathering Storm event in 7th ed that brought back Guilliman. It was really funny that after that Sister players had to wait years to get an army to go with her, even funnier that you were actually able to take her in other imperium armies and encouraged to do so.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

... Oh god, that was _7th ed?!_ If you'll excuse me, I have to go to the corner and turn to dust now.

[@davidcanty7903]

Votan goes and sits in the corner.

[@Bluecho4]

Kin Miner, channeling his WHFB Dwarf ancestors: "That's goin' in the FOOKIN' BOOK!"

[@FinxOmally]

As a kid in the very late 90s stopped collecting Blood Angels and was interested in Eldar. But instead left the hobby. Me returning to the hobby and wanting to collect Eldar again looking at what is available see the Warp Spiders and react with “YOU’RE STILL HERE, ITS BEEN OVER 25YRS?!”

[@crsmith6226]

> the predator can go away You shut your mouth I love the predator and the options it has

[@DisasterLord]

It will be a sad edition when it gets retired

[@Retrosicotte]

Yeah the Predator is one of the most iconic tanks in the game, not sure what he was on about.

[@arc4830]

Predator tank lines from DOW dark crusade are burned into my mind until my end of days

[@odinlindeberg4624]

Poorhammer hates on everything classic about space marines, IME

[@Feroce]

Personally I'd like to see an update that merges the rhino and impulsor into one tank. Give it the option of treads or hover pads. Give it the option of open top or hard top. They're very similar in design, so it should be doable with a few tweaks. As far as rules go, just get rid of the silly primaris/firstborn distinctions and just have it work for all marines. Make separate upgrade kits for the various other light tanks like predator/gladiator (now also the same vehicle), whirlwinds, razorbacks and such, and separate upgrade kits for faction specific stuff like the Baal, Castigator, and chaos spiky bits. It'd fit the lore too, since the imperium used to have hover rhinos and hover land raiders and the primaris tanks are basically that. Old marines are getting closer to truescale like the primaris anyway thanks to the Horus Heresy and chaos ranges. Do the same thing with the Land Raider/Repulsor.

[@syndraconic]

I dunno, maybe it's me getting older but I find a lot of the old designs quite charming in a way that a lot of Warhammer 40K isn't any more. Don't get me wrong the new sculpts are needed and the existing updated ones are often incredible. I just have a soft spot for some of the older ones.

[@reappermen]

I'm with you there. We need updates, not new units. That's one of the really nice things about the sisters tanks, they are still clearly rhinos as chasis, even with little details improved, and truckloads of flavored bling added on. Also why I don't like the rogal dorne that much, it goes to far from the awesome riveted boxes guards use

[@philistineau]

Same here. I realized that their definition of bad was not being primaris scale and monopose arms. Whereas I think the scaling could be great at a true 28 mm across the board and there’s a lot of charm in the older sculpts.

[@Sneaker3719]

I'm shocked that Brad and Eric (though mostly by Brad) seem completely ignorant about the Lexicanum's miniature portal while recording this. It's pretty easy to find, so I don't know how they stumbled on a reddit user's Excel spreadsheet before it.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

That's that Poorhammer quality at work.

[@greg_mca]

I was really surprised, like I consult that page a lot since I do lots of ebay rescues, it has pretty much everything if you just want to know when a unit came out and what it looked like

[@MrLynchInRealLife]

The editor knew that and put the visual proof in the background while they were talking

[@odinlindeberg4624]

@@greg_mca Admittedly, in my experience it often doesn't list dates or even years for older models. Just editions.

[@ajduong]

I mean, Chaos Bikers are one of the faction's best units currently. I'd hate for a new kit to remove how you can customise them so they're just worse Outriders

[@beanman853]

They aren't base space marines they get options

[@WilhelmScreamer]

Your research pain gives me even more respect for guys like Jordan Sorcery and his meticulous catologuing of the history of model ranges. On the metal/fine cast divide: finecast was made to use the same hardware to make em because metal was price volitile in the time of 5th edition. The end goal was to reach plastic but finecast was a stopgap. The painting phase has a great interview with ex gw workers on the topic.

[@JoshBorlase]

Can you point to any specific episodes?

[@WilhelmScreamer]

@@JoshBorlase for the podcast: there is an episode named "why does finecast exist"

[@Bluecho4]

Because nothing is more permanent than a temporary solution.

[@TheEternityLegion]

Can't update Ezekiel, he's based on the Sturmtiger

[@RoxxieRaeVA]

37:35 "Make me want to update the CSM Bikers." Ah, you see Brad, the bikers must be updated. Because if they are not, then we can't bring back the greatest Daemon Prince of them all.....DOOOOOOOOMRIDER!

[@Bluecho4]

Hell yeah.

[@beanieweenietapioca]

"I'm sure there was a reason that Saint Celestine came out earlier" She was part of the "Triumvirate of the Imperium" set, which also contained Belisarius Cawl and Inquisitor Greyfax. The supporting characters for Bobby G's resurrection, the Primaris launch, and 8th edition. She was a "soup with any Imperial army" unit up through the 2020 Sisters launch.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

Warp Spiders are old enough to have a stable job and housing.

[@claypigeon7063]

Warp Spiders have a 401K better þan most of us do!

[@Sparkyinbozo-xe9fn]

Elder millennial here. They are not.

[@dakotawharton]

They're old enough to have to stop playing warhammer to pay off their student loans.

[@abaddungeonmaster7622]

@@claypigeon7063They truly are the Warhammer 401K 🤣😅

[@crudename8383]

Not in this economy they don't

[@denharte8670]

The trick is to play Dawn of War 1 and see which models from the game still exist.

[@ThineDude]

Until 2022 that was *every* model from Eldar cept the wraithlord, banshees and the fire prism's slightly updated turret (I guess the harlequin hq can also join that "except" depending on how you count factions)

[@lazywargaming6752]

Damn. So early this time that they had objective markers

[@SawedOffLaser]

The scale of Custodes and Sisters of Silence makes sense when you remember it was, initially, a Horus Heresy only army. They look a lot better next to old marines.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

It cracks me up so much that the Catachans are still available despite every old ass Guard subfaction kit long since being retired. The fact that GW thinks the paint scheme on their store looks even remotely appealing is so funny to me too. I really hope that when the Guard get their Codex for 10th the space Rambos get a glow up.

[@Bluecho4]

They've already been doing it with the character models put out for Catachans. Those look really good. Making the old plastic kit with its ugly official paint job all the more galling. (At least Reptillian Overlords has stepped in, when GW faltered.)

[@Calvin_Coolage]

@@Bluecho4 There are Catachan character models?

[@Bluecho4]

@@Calvin_Coolage Sly Marbo, Straken, Harker. Plus a couple models that were commemorative pieces I don't think they sell anymore, but which were recent and looked good. (One that looked like one of the characters from Predator). Point is, GW has shown us in the recent past what GOOD Catachans look like, making the plastic infantry look all the worse.

[@dairewoods2544]

Damn the Tson bit hit me hard. To be fair, I think they get away with it a bit cause the models themselves look good if dated. The boring pose works with the whole automata thing and the headresses makes the hight difference less noticeable

[@Chickymasala]

I didnt get the size thing. Arent all csm supposed to be lil stumpy old marines not primaris anyway?

[@Bluecho4]

@@Chickymasala That was the original idea when Primaris were released, yes. They were physically larger in the lore to justify their model size increase. However, over time, both CSM and Firstborn marines (by way of Horus Heresy 2nd ed) have had model releases that upgraded them to Primaris scale. Seemingly with no explanation. GW has slowly both removed old marine models and tried to blur the line in some cases (like in 9th, when that retro style Black Templar character was left curiously unspecified for a bit as to whether it was Primaris or Firstborn, and GW then had to come out and say "it's whatever you want"). Given all this, I'm of the belief that GW just wants to erase the old boundary, because it's a pain in the ass for them to manage. It's why when Firstborn character models get removed, their Primaris equivalents just get the "Primaris" word removed from their name. It's no longer a Primaris Lieutenant, it's just a Lieutenant. They want to pretend the distinction never happened.

[@scelonferdi]

On the factions that are now dying: I think it's a result of 6th and 8th being really trigger happy with new factions, partially because allying was a common thing. So they could do mini factions for soup. From the top of my head those were (in no particular order): Harlequins Genestealers Deathwatch Cult Mechanicus (later fused into AdMech) Skitarii (later fused into AdMech) Militarum Tempestus (later fused into Guard) and Knights Thousand Sons were sort of part of it, but iirc they were actually played as CSM, only getting treated as separate faction in 8th (unlike the others which were their own thing in 7th).

[@crazyshak4827]

It wasn't just with 40K either. They're doing range culls for Stormcast in Age of Sigmar, because they went hard with the new releases. They kinda went nuts with the bloat in the late 2010s, and I feel like now we're being stuck with the hangover

[@spacebees86]

I picked up some old used books just for lore and painting ideas, and I had to google and find a 3rd-party list someone made of each book just to figure out which editions mine are from. Coming from D&D, tthis was mind blowing

[@CritBeatsRaw]

heavy on EVERYTHING said during the harlequins section man. none of this "quiet smothering" of the most interesting faction makes any sense

[@parkerdm9636]

Small correction: the oldest Admech model in the Techpriest Engineseer. I think he used to be part of the old IG range or something like that. 23:04

[@InvinciblKillerQueen]

Talking about how long ago the 90s actually were should be illegal. This is like when I find out a hyper-successful pro athlete is half my age.

[@mahudking]

25mm bases used to be standard for space marines, but then they updated it to 32mm - evidently they just didnt look at Ezekiel lmao

[@Bluecho4]

They obviously decided they didn't care enough to change what base is packaged with the blister.

[@efffvss]

@@Bluecho4 If they haven't updated the model at all since 96, they probably couldn't change the base. Metal models of that era came with 'slotabases' where there was a slot in the base itself that you stuck a metal tab attached to the model's feet into to attach the mini to the base. I don't think they ever made 32 mm bases with those slots, so (assuming Ezekiel still has the tab) they would have had to keep him on a 25mm.

[@Bluecho4]

@@efffvss Other manufacturers produce 32mm slotta bases. But I presume GW didn't want to bother making or stocking them, just for the odd metal mini in their collection they hope to discontinue eventually anyway. So that makes sense.

[@JurgenBlitz]

I hate to be THAT guy, but I feel the Tyranid part might be partially mistaken? Yes, the Carnifex kit is the oldest, but while the Warrior kit was revisited and updated to add more biomorphs and the options for the Prime, the basis of the Warrior body (tail, legs, torso, head, scything talons and some of the ranged weapons) is still the same as it was back in 2001.

[@moldiworp9143]

Dont lie we all love being that guy.

[@JurgenBlitz]

@@moldiworp9143 Usually yes, but these guys have clearly put in a lot of effort into this reprospective and I feel smug about raising the smallest of technicalities. Couldn't resist to point that out because I bought the 2001 kit at launch, but still.

[@JavierEscuelIa]

I would like to be that guy as well. The 2015 release of the Admech is not the next oldest thing after servitors. That would actually be the old Techpriest Enginseer who was part of the guard roster before the Admech even existed.

[@andrewcarter9649]

Nah, you don't just add something to a sprue, you redesign it from the ground up and produce an all new mould. Aesthetically it's identical but it's definitely not the same kit.

[@PythonicMethod]

Thank you. When they glossed over Warriors, it felt weird. That kit feels identical to the one I bought 20 years ago.

[@BadmanOfBanterbury]

Kharn really isn't smaller than the berserkers. He was pretty beefed up for his time, so he fits in well with the current berserker kit. Any percieved shortness is due to his pose. Man is BOOKING IT.

[@superfish1122]

55:45 The ork boyz kit is from 2008 around the 4th edition release. The 1999 kit didn't have special weapons or the nob. The boyz are almost identical, but the old kit had shootas separate from the hands so you had to glue them to the gun arms.

[@OrcboyPhil]

Finecast was a stopgap measure in 2011 (might have been 2012) because the price of the metals used had gone up astronomically and GW was on the brink of collapse. A lot of the older metal characters where transferred to this process but it was so hated by fans that they swiftly moved towards just plastic releases that we have now.

[@efffvss]

You're right about the date, it was May 2011. It's a bit strange that Brad thought it was earlier than 2009, despite researching mini age. What also didn't help with the reception of Finecast (aside from the really bad quality of the sculpts, I know Brad and Eric like to have a go at FW, but FW was in a different league compared to early (or even later tbh) Finecast) was the price hike. While moving to a cheaper material (and calling it out as such in the promo material iirc), they increased the price of Finecast minis by 50% vs the metals they were replacing (while the handful of stuff they didn't replace stayed at the cheaper price point). It was a perfect storm of terrible PR.

[@creativehorse7907]

Peatron idea is smart, something I would only use spareingly because it is a little bit polarising, but I respect the maneuver.

[@phueal]

As someone who has only recently got back into 40k, and last played in about 2002, for so many of these *old* kits you put on screen I'm like "oh that looks so cool!", and then you shit all over it.

[@ethanfox8979]

In a vacuum, a lot of them look decent. It's when they get put next to the new models that they look worse. It's easiest to see with old marines next to primaris just due to the scale difference.

[@Tajealos]

Damn Last time I was this early, Horus was still The Warmaster

[@amberhamilton7944]

A best Oldhammer list or something involving metal models would be a neat episode.

[@christerprestberg3973]

"Goodbye Jokero". To soon man, to soon...

[@thetrueteebs1338]

My favorite thing as a Blood Angel player is the codex makes mention of literally every singel ild character we had except Tycho and describes them all being active. Including the Librarian dread. Likes its all in there. Why did they get rid of them all

[@Calvin_Coolage]

The Blood Angels release for 10th Edition have made me believe they just hate the Chapter and its successors for some reason. I have no idea why.

[@suetyhercules7717]

Welcome to being an Admech fan. Out Codex does nothing but tell us about cool things that don't have legal models

[@madflam3192]

​@@suetyhercules7717this comment made gw think for a bit and they decided to add more skitari and make the previous ones cheaper...... In points

[@xesca.7999]

I am so glad someone adressed my biggest gripe with this hobby. We have SO MUCH "lost media". I have heard stories of really interesting lore/conversions/scenarios/REAL MODELS talked about in forums/reddit, which apparently where in issue god knows what of White Dwarf and nowhere else and it drives me up the wall as someone who loves to read obscure shit and go down weird old rabbitholes.

[@YrittaisitEdes]

I feel like GW has very little idea what they are doing with Harlequins. They existed during 2nd edition, went basically away during 3rd, came back in 4th backed in Eldar codex, stayed there until 6th where they went separate ways again until 10th and they are again back Eldar codex. It's like they want to have them as their own faction but don't want to have enough models to support that.

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

You’re not going to believe it, but I’m having a brain blast solution right here for them

[@crayven]

I love the Rhino and the Land Raider was one of the reasons why I started collecting 40k stuff ... dont take those away, way to Iconic

[@demonprinceofkhorne]

I still don't know why you two hate the Defiler so much. Its legitimately my favourite model that has ever existed in 40K!

[@vxicepickxv]

I remember when it was first revealed. They didn't have it ready for the Chaos codex, so we had to see it in the Eye of Terror. The original 13th Black Crusade.

[@mayonation8849]

As a Guard player I was shocked when I got my Regimental Attaches(Which is a name change) were metal, and then was also even more shocked when I looked them up and they’re newer than the Catachans.

[@mrcaptaina7636]

Creating a site like that sounds like a great idea.... you should totally make that in order for GW to claim you travelled through time to steal such a fantastic plan

[@patrickbaillargeon7568]

The Soulgrinder fits demons perfectly. It has a wrought iron, black powder, alchemical aesthetic

[@SaltheWriter]

The one way to find model release dates might be to find a repository of old White Dwarf magazines and then find all model announcements, then you might have a closer time. That is really time consuming though and I feel like that would be a daunting project, but it would be cool for creating a historical archive.

[@rystat]

The lexicanum has a model section that shows release years and editions, I use it all the time

[@Gigasius]

I was about to post this👆

[@kikolokopo_toys]

PEOPLE WHO USE AI: remember every 10-15 prompts, you're wasting 500ml of water (half a liter). That's 1/3 of what a full adult should drink for a day. Its like having a pet or a child

[@teddywoods6463]

Damn, maybe they are worth a couple bucks. But what if I gave it to Bricky instead…

[@thepoorhammerpodcast]

This is just shilling for the Big Forehead industry.

[@tee9an]

I respect Brad's take that Primaris marines just look better than Firstborn. They do, in some ways. But the bro's insistence that a unit having legends rules means you cant use it. LEGENDS RULES ONLY PREVENT YOU FROM PLAYING THE UNIT IN GW TOURNAMENTS. You ain't playing THAT MANY tournaments that you can't afford to remember the rules to use some of the legends units. Legends are OK in matched play outside of GW tournaments. I say this as a deathwatch enjoyer who would have just lost his whole range if he had the same mentality as Bard.

[@Calvin_Coolage]

There are a lot of people who view Legends as the death of a unit/faction, because most people who play 40k are only interested in the current edition or are perhaps only willing to go back one or two editions. Stuff getting sent to Legends just turns every game you play with the models into a gigantic ball ache where you have to vet with your opponent if Legends rules are ok with them to play against. Unfortunately not everyone into 40k has the good fortune of knowing people who aren't slaves to GW's obsession with competitive play. At least they aren't getting squatted in-universe like the poor AoS factions getting removed from 4th are. Sacrosanct Stormcast are sent back to Azyr, Beastmen are so scattered that they can't pull together proper armies, and the poor Bonesplitterz orks are having a faction wide mental breakdown that made them run to the edge of the universe or fight the Skaven just to make the bells in their head stop.

[@Bluecho4]

@@Calvin_Coolage ^This. "Official" rules are the glue holding together a gaming community that has to juggle both Reasonable People and GW Purists. "Legends" is a distinction that forces players to have conversations about what they find appropriate for their games. Something that's difficult enough for socially awkward nerds (I am one of these, just to establish I'm not throwing shade), without touching the ire of the same folks who get mad if you even suggest using third party proxy models. There's just a part of the playerbase who cannot imagine leaving the GW walled garden, in any capacity. And their prominence within the discourse exerts a kind of _social pressure_ that just makes it easier for everyone else to stick to "official" material. When a unit goes to Legends, it's banishing them to a gulag it's considered "uncouth" to even acknowledge, let alone use in a game.

[@abaddungeonmaster7622]

@@Bluecho4Yeeeeeah, exactly, these two above me speak the truth. Already, it’s hard to play 40K. So, it’s a bit niche in comparison to many other kinds of social games. Then, add the need to meet with strangers to play, or have a friend group who plays. So, already hard to play in general, but that’s not even counting building and painting an army (and some people don’t love playing with/against gray plastic, so that further adds some awkwardness/difficulty.) Then, add the fact that unfortunately, stereotypes about “that guys” in the 40k fandom exist for a reason. They exist everywhere in every group, but with how…involved playing 40k is, it makes it extra uncomfortable and awkward if you encounter that kind of person. And “that guys” can literally be set off by lore inaccurate paint jobs, proxying, third party models in casual games, and so on. So, take all these already challenging/awkward possible elements of the game, then add an EXTRA layer of possible discomfort of “so, hey, these models, they use legends rules, is that cool?” and it’s just miserable. Some people will play any game on Uber-sweat mode at all times, and even if it is a “casual” game, they can still be a stickler and refuse to play in any other way than you would competitively. So, having legends models is just another can of worms to open, that can make it extra awkward. And that’s not to mention the clear: “these models are going to be brought to pasture momentarily, having legends rules are just like the day before putting an old animal down. It’s allowing you one more day where you bring them out and spoil them with trips to get good food they normally couldn’t have before they get put down at the vet” that being made legends entails. So, you know soon this model that you have grown attached to, built, painted, spent money in, etc, won’t have rules or support soon. Essentially, TLDR, it is another uncomfortable question in a hard to play game, and soon your models are being left to die sometime soon.

[@korodullin]

The actual problem with Legends from the casual perspective is that as the models stay in Legends, it gets harder and harder to actually find the rules for them. You know what most people in my local groups use for list building for 40k since Battlescribe is essentially dead and New Recruit is a slow web app* that sucks ass to use on a phone? The official app. You know what will never, ever be included in the official app? Legends units. Having to use some combination of a third-party list builder, Wahapedia, and Legends .pdfs buried in WarCom's Downloads section is a huge barrier to just use Legends units yourself, never mind getting other people you play with to agree to play against what amounts to a "trust me bro" on a unit's abilities. *Yes, even the New Recruit "app" you can download is just the regular slow-as-dirt web app, but in a slightly nicer wrapper.

[@DrakonPhD]

They use a ton of Rhinos in Space Marine 2, I don't think they have a single Impuslor in it. Just Repulsors, Rhinos, a Predator, and maybe a Gladiator.

[@domagojkrizic9572]

don't you get a ride offered by a space marine in an impulsor?

[@niefali]

GW is easily the biggest downside of 40k.

[@superfish1122]

The Basilisk is an interesting case since the hull is a new Chimera while the gun is from 1999ish.

[@Retrosicotte]

"The Predator and Rhino looked so out of place" "The predator isn't an iconic tank". Honestly at this point I'm never sure if Brad is just baiting people for a laugh or if he actually believes this stuff.

[@nothinghere2319]

There is no way they said those tanks look like toys when the Primaris tanks are more toyish looking than ANY of the old tanks Gotta be bait lmao

[@popezosimusthethird269]

22:51 : one possibility for the Ratlings is that this was the beginning of Finecase. Not the very beginning where a whole rollout was planned with the intention of really putting Finecast on the map, but a bit after that during the notorious BUBBLES AGE when you have a good 25% chance of your Finecast model having bubbles in it destroying not just some details but sometimes deforming a limb. IIRC there was some time after the first Finecast rollout where new models would still be metal as was planned, but metal then stuck around a bit longer to avoid further backlash over Finecast not being ready for the market yet. Also I am baffled there was no mention of the War Walker. It might be more recent than the base Eldar tank but it looks ten years older.

[@DrunkenGrognard]

Okay, I will grant that Ezzie is getting up there in years, but honestly? He still looks pretty dang good. Nicely detailed without being too fiddly, and the pose is simple but he looks like he means business.

[@schwegburt3002]

DA Ezekiel used to cost $7. Warhams is overpriced in general but it's hilarious they're selling the same metal model from the 90s at a x5 mark up.

[@amostyx]

I remember when that Catachan kit came out. It was so cool! You've got imperial guardsmen, but in plastic! They're so poseable, you can make so many varieties that look dynamic and cool, just like that new Space Marine Tactical Squad that came out! You weren't stuck with the same 8 metal monopose sculpts for guardsmen with lasguns. And it's so cheap, you can get like 20 models for the price of 4 metal ones, what a bargain! Standards have shifted a little in the last quarter century.

[@willpenn966]

You can't update perfection. Metal Ezekiel is great. Metal is the Superior Material.

[@darnokx9277]

What many people (including you) miss when discussing the age of GW kits currently for sale: in some cases you have only the mildest reworks of older sculpts still for sale. Case in point: Imperial Guard and their tanks. The Leman Russ and Chimera chassis are virtually identical to what went on sale in the mid 90s. Both Leman Russ and Chimera got a recut sprue years ago, but the sculpted pieces are in most parts identical to their original incarnation from 2nd edition. Unless you use modern bits, you can build both "modern kits" in a way that is indistinguishable from their older versions. Eldar have a similar case with Falcon and Vyper, which were originally from the late 90s, but had some minor sprue recuts later on - but the basic models are the same they have been way back then. And for Orks: those "old Boys" still on sale now are NOT the version from 1999. You might guess where this is going... they have been recut some years ago. The original kit from 1999 had a very different sprue layout and missed quite a few of the things you get nowadays (bits for boss and special weapons mostly). If you are curious: you can check out all the original sprues mentioned above (LR, Chimera, Falcon, Vyper, Boys) in the 2000 catalogue here: solegends.com/citcat2000/index.htm

[@Trueflights]

If you go far enough back, the old 40k metal minis used to have the date stamped on the slot piece at the bottom that went into the slotted bases.

[@MadisonRamanamabangbang]

The amount of times trying to find things like "When were primaris introduced" and getting "It dtarted in 30,000 and got released some time in 42,200" Like NO i mean when was the MODEL released not the lore

[@greg_mca]

Lexicanum has a miniatures portal that organises them by year. Hasn't let me down so far

[@19jsparker19]

The Eldar tanks hold up design wise today, however building them is an experience. If you do decide to build any of them (I'm telling you from experience after getting two Fire Prisms, a Nightspinner and a Wave Serpent), you're going to want a medium grit and fine grit sandpaper and two large clamps. I'm convinced they're still using the same injection molds as when they started selling these models because the top body half has a weird speckled texture on it, and the two halves of the body don't quite fit together right and need some convincing with clamps to stay together as your cement bonds them together. The windshields they have also don't fit properly into their spots. Despite the amount of work that goes just into building these janky tanks, they're easily my favorite vehicle models I own.

[@ThineDude]

I want new models for them only for the miserable state of the building process. Their design is still fantastic and hardly needs any updating.

[@Unknown-qj9sm]

Honestly I found them a breeze to build, how strange

[@indy_com]

As a TSons player, the big Crest on the Helmets actually do bring us "up to scale" to the point where if they were updated to Primaris Scale we'd be way too tall (also this size difference is now Lore Accurate since Space Marine 2 has Rubrics and SOTs as "smaller" than Primaris. Also the Infernal Master who was added in 9th is in the same scale as the Rubrics despite being a much newer model, so it looks like GW are just running with the Short Dusty Bois joke at this point.

[@ThineDude]

46:30 As an eldar player, I can assure you the grav tank kits ABSOLUTELY suck. you literally need rubber bands to keep the top of the hull flush with the bottom as the glue dries, else it pringles out. It is a genuine pain. let alone the whole assembly of the turret options are their own deal depending on the flavor.

[@gammothdraws]

Lemartes doesn't have a ball gag, it's just how they painted it plus the angle. It's fine at every other angle and it's fine when it's not painted specifically to look like one :(

[@DoctorHam]

It's such a surreal feeling watching them talk about things like the space wolf range that came out when I was most active but before I took my extended 40k hiatus lol. I remember the excitement around the release of the Baal predator and the Stormraven! Edit: oh god the pain of Eric calling the Sisters a new faction, my friend played their third edition codex as his main army for years

[@TheFlyingNostril]

Same here. Saw them on the tabletop in 2003, I was surprised to hear they didn't exist apparently.

[@Warpcaller]

As someone who started 40k 2010ish the reason they still released metal models during this time was that the finecast technology was far from mature, the first batches of the finecast minis used the have HORRIBLE boubles and other defects so people avoided them like a plague

[@CdrChaos]

8:30 I know you have an irrational hatred of Firstborn Marines, but canonically the Marines aren’t going to just throw away their tanks that are relics and centuries old just because they now have Primaris Marines. And since Primaris don’t fit in the Rhino, they’ll always have a need for Firstborn Marines to drive the tanks. 20:50 It's not, the Manticore requires the same level of effort to put together as every other tank and vehicle in the Guard. 40:17 Because your Thousand Sons are FIRSTBORN MARINES, that's why they're so short. Primaris are NEW Marines, Thousand Sons are not new, they are thousands of years old.

[@bhizzle64]

I have never felt more validated than when I learned that bloodletters are the oldest kit in daemons. They were the first models I assembled as a new player starting with daemons and I was shocked how much less of a pain it was when I moved on to my horrors. The only thing that even compared to the bloodletters is trying to get the top platform of the tzeetch chariot to stay attached to a single round plastic nub when the glue was drying.

[@josephdominick1157]

This is literally perfect timing - I was just looking to try and find one of each refresh/re-release/update of some old models. Like how many iterations did Crisis Suits and Broadsides go through to get from their original 3rd edition designs to the current ones? Very very hopeful that this sparks inspiration for people to archive model history

[@mk-ultraviolence1760]

I actually had the opposite experience with Space Marine 2 where when I saw the Repulsor I saw how fully stupid looking it was barely hovering there.

[@stevencarr5294]

So... you were repulsed? :D I'll see myself out...

[@robbiepeacocke2465]

Yeah predators and land raiders still look much cooler. Big side sponsons just look cooler (even if they might not be as practical in real life)

[@mk-ultraviolence1760]

@@robbiepeacocke2465 The sad thing is its still less ridiculous than the hovering Subaru Sambar.

[@TaraBigHammer]

The Eldar Falcon kit isn't even their oldest plastic vehicle - the Vyper pre-dated it by some months (it released alongside the original Space Marine Attack Bike), and aside from them adding the heavy weapon sprue that added plastic versions of the heavy weapons you would otherwise have to buy as an individual part via the mail order catalogue (there were metal versions for the guardian weapon platforms), the Vyper kit is the same one. And as someone who has built many Falcon chassis, I really do wish they would refresh it. Sticking the upper hull to the lower and fitting the transport section at the back together is horrendously messy. I have yet to come across a Falcon kit (or Wave Serpent or Fire Prism) that fits together properly (and my first Falcon was from that 1997 release). I personally think the Vyper has held up better than the Falcon, even though it has some real problems (wings are too thin and always break, crew models are aaaancient design - they wear the gear that Rogue Trader era Eldar guardians wore - weapon options aren't well catered for) they at least fit together pretty well, compared to the Falcon chassis.

[@thorscape3879]

The Sisters released in 1997 in 2nd Edition and existed in metal with some finecast all the way up to their update. They were roughly the same age as Ezekiel when the entire range got its updated and expanded. I unironically love the banana man.

[@arrothelion4038]

20:13 depending on how you want to count it, the Basilisk is an even older Guard kit - the chassis got updated with the Chimera, but the sprue with the basilisk cannon itself dates all the way to 1995

[@doctoradventure413]

Learning about GW history feels like uncovering ancient history lost time. Shout out to the original forge world and GW’s record label. If the history of Warhammer as a game interests you I highly recommend the channel Snipe and Wib Plays. They will do videos about the history of certain model ranges, old rulebooks, and weird products GW released.

[@Elfangor567]

RIP Votann. It might also be neat to look at the oldest models for each faction, not the oldest playable, the oldest examples. Leather custodes, ancient squat, etc.

[@d1halberdgnoll963]

Remember Old School Stormboyz? Remember the WHFB Pygmies?

[@Baristalorian]

Always makes my day when I see there is a new poorhammer video

[@epicericmics3221]

I hope next week is an aos episode would love to see a painting tier list for them

[@durnyboy8310]

As a new necron player from the past few months, I finally understand what "chaos tax" actually has meant

[@TrippyTheShroom]

The lack of models is purely the only reason I haven't dumped stupid money into Drukhari. Adore the vibes, the look, I just want more and GW has basically refused to touch them.

[@alexhughes2754]

As an Aeldari player, I saw the title and knew I was going to be EATING. Then the harlequins came up and my heart broke. Maybe next edition my clowntacular kings

[@bobamer932]

Not gonna lie the eldar, for having models as old as they do, hold up shockingly well

[@TheLofren]

Nids are not bugs, theyre dinosaurs and crabs and sometimes lizards Also theres already a database of models, lexicanum has them all listed with images and release dates

[@magosmallen2973]

*SPOILERS FOR SPACE MARINE 2* Near the end of the game There are actually several Las-Predators in the big charge against the Daemon. One gets blasted alongside some of the newer tanks, and there are multiple blasting it throughout the mission

[@beverlyshields2399]

9:58 I am the one person who thinks the predator is iconic. Specifically the autocannon version. I just think squares are neat 🤷‍♀️

[@Violet_Jester64]

Every time Brad remembers to include us Harlequins in one of these videos, it makes me just a bit happier

[@TheFungusAmongus-pv9dw]

It’s amazing how the carnifex is still one of the best looking models in the range, and somehow the most unique. Great fun to paint too.

[@TheFlyingNostril]

I was so excited to get mine. I kitbashed my carnifex ripping a marine in half.

[@TheFungusAmongus-pv9dw]

@@TheFlyingNostril I dread the day that James comes out with a mono-pose carni

[@McFatson]

I just saw a video talking about Guard tournament wns and apparently their lists went super hard on Catachan so just imagine the sweatiest players spamming troops that look like half melted anthropomorphic basset hounds. I love it.

[@shaedeymamlas5496]

When I got into 40k, I was utterly baffled that I couldnt find a good scryfall equivalent

[@Fezzik312]

Without having watched it yet, if you crap on my beloved Nobz someone’s getting krumped.

[@theleopard8755]

Read the thumbnail half asleep and thought that said "Ancient Aliens". Was not disappointed.

[@LunarSniperWifle]

I like the predator tank :c Lol i get it though, I know the gladiator floaty tanks are meant to the new predator tanks, but personally I adore how the preds look. I got two of em and have no gladiator :3 If we do get a new rhino chasis for marines (and thus i assume for everyone else who uses it) it would be great since the treads are cool as hell but i wouldnt be shocked if it goes away for marines when tacticals and devs do