Editor/IDE Tier List

[@chonkusdonkus]

Prime has a skill issue with VSCode

[@marcs9451]

VSCode users have a skill issue with Neovim

[@hamm8934]

@@ЕвгенийКрасилов-о9о based Though, VSCode vim emulation is rough

[@ocean3323]

​@@marcs9451 this one person who doesn't get jokes and fall for all trolls

[@rp2804]

absolutely true, vscode is overpowered, I guess prime doesn't know the features yet

[@Krisztiankishazi]

Try to work with 20k changed files with vscode and make a diff against the server. As long you don't, you have some skill issues

[@MrOnePieceRuffy]

8:44 GNU Nano 11:22 Macro Media Dreamweaver 13:52 MS Notepad 16:19 Lapce 17:29 IntelliJ 20:15 Visual Studio 23:35 Fleet 24:11 Zed 27:10 MS Frontpage 31:37 Kakoune 34:42 Computer Cancer Producer (Eclipse) 38:06 Vim 44:46 PyCharm 45:08 ed 45:56 Notepad++ 51:31 Visual Studio Express 54:52 JACCP (Netbeans) 59:29 Sublime 1:04:05 XCode 1:06:39 GNU Emacs 1:14:46 Helix 1:18:08 Atom 1:21:34 THE GOAT (VSCode) 1:30:05 Just Another Editor

[@Blaisem]

neovim at 1:30:00

[@rarasdfa12312]

@@Blaisem thanks lol

[@elimgarak3597]

Nvim is the real goat tho

[@simonfarre4907]

​@@elimgarak3597 no it is not. Neovim is sluggish compared to VSCode. Which is not a great grade. I used to use neovim. I use VSCode now instead.

[@elimgarak3597]

@@simonfarre4907 actually, Nvim (a C program) is orders of magnitude faster than Vscode (an electron-based app). Vscode isn't bad, don't get me wrong, and it is decently fast. But one of the selling Nvim points for me was precisely the speed, the others being the amazing workflow, simplicity, and easy customization.

[@apollyon144]

Notepad++ was my first editor after Notepad and was thus a major improvement, and it still has a place in my heart.

[@MrSofazocker]

I still have both, but after sometime now, notepad-- seen more use than notepad++ 🤣

[@balatries]

Same

[@gocryptoyourself2423]

100%, my first one was notepad, for html back when everyone used windows xp, then i found notepad++, then dreamweaver.

[@zane62135]

I still use it every day. Mainly because it's super fast. The lag from huge IDEs like Visual Studio drives me insane.

[@GravitoRaize]

I wrote a ton of chatbot code in windows batch files on a legacy system and Notepad++ was my goto editor for those and any config files where I had to do a simple find and replace. The idea that Notepad++ would be lower than Notepad seems silly to me. Every single reason why Notepad is useful is why Notepad++ is useful, only it's better in almost every way. It's the very first thing I install on any Windows computer I touch. I don't get their ranking explanations between these two at all.

[@austin4855]

notepad++ is the first thing i install on a fresh windows, every single time, followed promptly by setting it as the default app for pretty much everything. i've never once used it for development, but i use it multiple times daily for checking out an unfamiliar file in isolation, editing a config, or just taking quick text notes

[@awilliamwest]

I used to, but lately just put Scintilla Text Editor in the path (which I like to name SE.exe). I just type SE filename whenever I want to edit anything from the command-line. It loads faster than Notepad++, and I don't see the need for NotePad++ features for simple edits... I use VS Code for more complex edits (eg. column editing.)

[@NinjaRunningWild]

Programmer's Notepad is good also.

[@ego-lay_atman-bay]

Exactly what I use it for as well!

[@ego-lay_atman-bay]

@@awilliamwestnotepad++ has column editing...

[@Akab]

Did some lua and Ruby scripting on it but other than that, same

[@Refresh5406]

Who else but a Vim user would get confused by Nano?

[@ymom11]

I use vscode with the terminal tab on the bottom open. Works pretty well for me.

[@kiwisorbet]

I like my terminal tab on the right side

[@KonradGM]

WAtching them talk about IDe's makes me wish Prime would do series about more deep dive for compilers and stuff. Since it seems they are not liking when IDE's hide too much, which makes me curious what are people who use visual studio and vscode missing

[@krux02]

The ability, to write a build script for the CI that isn't “start IDE, wait until it's initiallized, and then press button ‘compile’”.

[@VojtěchJavora]

I use vscode, but only for the editor, compiling on command line. I am not touching those JSON config files.

[@jeffxdd4351]

​@@VojtěchJavora very respectable

[@arnontzori]

They miss nothing. You don't understand the underlying compiler better because you use a CLI, that's such a strange idea. Both a CLI and a GUI are just interfaces for the actual program, which you won't really understand unless you either write a few or read the code... most developers don't do either, regardless of what IDE or text editor they use

[@Fiercesoulking]

Nothing also you can simply access the compiler with the developer command prompt for Visual Studio

[@anj000]

It would be good to next time make the viewers vote BEFORE you discuss amongst yourself, but do not view the results. Show them only after you come up with your answer. Your viewers are divided into two categories. One will vote always in opposition to what you are saying, others will vote exactly as you were saying, because you said it. And you know it.

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

i cannot say your portions are correct, but the notion / direction is certainly correct

[@ego-lay_atman-bay]

You forgot the people who vote what everyone else is voting, even though they don't agree

[@friedrichmyers]

​@@ego-lay_atman-bayyou forgot the kids who don't know/haven't used half the editors in the list. Especially the hate against Emacs is ming boggling.

[@mrhivefive]

Kakoune/Helix are close enough to Vim/Neovim to confuse people, but they are built on some very different insights. It's not just the order object-verb, it's the insight that visual mode should be the default. It's still called normal mode and when you start you see just a cursor that you can move like in vim, but the cursor is just a 1 char selection.

[@Goodwarrior12345]

Come on you can't do Notepad++ dirty like that! It's amazing. Maybe not for coding per se, but I use it all the time to edit config files or browse source files. It's user-friendly, boots up instantly and is also great for temporary notes. As a basic text editor it's THE windows go-to.

[@Haifisch7734]

"great for temporary notes" that's why after few years had more than 100 tabs with temporary notes, even about projects I finished in 2019, but felt too nostalgic to close the tab

[@isodoubIet]

@@Haifisch7734 stop calling me out

[@cookieshade197]

​@@Haifisch7734Too real, I still have unnamed tabs open from the windows 10 beta days in like 2014-2015

[@poika22]

notepad++ is a geat text editor. but that's what it is, a text editor. no one's saying you shouldn't use it when you need to change one number in an .ini file or write down some quick notes or whatever. that doesn't make it great for actual programming.

[@lamename2010]

@@poika22 It's better than Notepad, yet Notepad got "Aktshually".

[@thurston04]

Feel like Helix got the short end here. It's motions make good sense and is not so terribly dissimilar from vim

[@ky3ow]

lovin the gl gh and gs, makes them more consistent than $ 0 ^ changed them in my nvim configuration untill helix comes up with plugin system so i can switch

[@jasondoe2596]

*Lapse* (which I first heard of today) seems promising, too - its exact feature set would appeal to many people.

[@SimGunther]

"Vi was a mistake; go use emacs instead" -Vi creator

[@vncstudio]

lol.

[@mathijsfrank9268]

Notepad++ isnt about being an editor to program in, it is more an extremely easy way to do a lot of simple things with formats you dont usually work with for windows. If there is any file (format) you use more regularly you should use something else. I often dont use it for a long time and then use it daily for a week or so. Couldnt do without it.

[@jasondoe2596]

Exactly, you get it! It's a great tool _for what it is_ , and very lightweight. And even though it's not what you'd use for actual programming, its ability to syntax-highlight a shit ton of languages is great.

[@Fluid55]

But notepad is just better for this because you can write it to any file type

[@yeahaddigirl]

CTRL X my guy Prime: Goes thru entire vim tutorial Also prime: can't read bottom line of nano that is always present Netbeans can't even render text without bugging out, i used it because i didn't want to install another tool and that's it.

[@gagagero]

But then he has to answer a yes/no question about whether he wants to save and that's too difficult.

[@gassosaman1794]

Yes, this was very weird hearing him say that. Once you know that ^ means ctrl then... it's really just that simple. Press ctrl X, press Y/N on the prompt and you're done. I don't get what's supposed to be hard about that

[@arnabbiswasalsodeep]

I'm very confused by that as well, a guy who's learned all vim keybinds has trouble with that & then a yes no question was very confusing. IDK if there existed any version where it wasn't the case.

[@scythazz]

I mean… there is always a meme with vim users is that once they learnt all vim key bindings, it is all they know. And anything else that is different is just not worth the effort anymore… Is kinda like why bother….

[@BenRangel]

Nano is easier to exit than vim, and overall easier for new users who just want to simply edit one or two lines once in a while and have no plans to move to a terminal based editor as their main.

[@Leo0718]

I'm loving Micro. It's a sane text editor without weird keybindings. It runs on the terminal, it's a minuscule install, as small as nano. And it doesn't confuse anyone. It even has tab and tiling build in.

[@pikaa-si9ie]

@@Leo0718 i like micro but exiting from it is still weird

[@Leo0718]

@@pikaa-si9ie it's ctrl-q the exact same shortcut that universally closes any window in any linux desktop environment.

[@pikaa-si9ie]

@@Leo0718 ohhh thank you!

[@MarcusHCrawford]

:q! Then: rm -rf /*

[@displayname7t4]

It makes sense and probably saves time to visualize and validate a selection before performing an action on it. At least for anyone who doesn't already have vim muscle memory. If you don't have vim muscle memory but want to move away from Graphical text editors like Vscode to increase editing speed, I think the real question is why wouldn't you learn Helix ?

[@replikvltyoutube3727]

Notepad++ is god tier So many times it helped me with it's simple highlight, Indent by fold plugin, PUML plugin. Also sad Geany or Kate was not on the list :(

[@TravisTennies]

Yeah I used Kate for some of my first actually programming. 2000 ~ 2002, then that Java one everyone hates (but had plugins for every language), and used NetBeans (was awesome back in the day). I guess now days you're "cool" if you just say everything sucks. Kinda ironic.

[@1s1601]

notepad++ is painful

[@d3stinYwOw]

Geany sucks by today standards. No proper LSP support, project plugin with hardcoded ctags cli flags. Kate eats it from the start, even if it have it's own issues, like only one LSP per language (multi-lsp-proxy don't work since Kate does not support workspace/Symbol or something like this from spec) and not differentiating on file extensions, which makes using ada lang server( supports ada and gpr project files, but gpr with a switch) or python lsp server other than python-lsp-server without plugins a chore

[@tkg__]

Helix motions are a mix of Vim and Kakoune motions. They are essentially Vim motions but with Kakoune's "motion -> action" approach instead of "action -> motion".

[@pandatovah]

I think Helix is a bit underrated. Not only is Kakoune-ish keybinds easier for new people to understand and get into. But Helix is very easy to get running with LSP and Debugging. I thoroughly enjoyed my weeks where I tried it out. Pretty much no frustrations or headaches, especially compared to my first weeks with both emacs and vim. With that said, there is a point to know vim keybinds if you ever are to use SSH or computers that you can't install programs on. For me that's probably the biggest reason I'm sticking with Neovim. And if it's zero config you are after there are several decent out-of-the-box experiences with nvim that slowly let you step into more personalized config as you grow whereas Helix pretty much stops right as you get into it.

[@KManAbout]

That's kind of why I like it though it comes with pretty much everything out of the box. There are a few things like gut blame on lines that I would like but there's no things I really need. This let's me focus on just getting better at everything else instead of tweaking my config all the time. Which I needed to do a bunch in emacs and nvim

[@chammy2812]

As someone that uses Helix on my laptop, but is forced to use vi when I ssh into servers (basically everyday for work). I prefer Helix so much more. I think mode of (visually) selecting things before performing actions make it much easier to pick up and learn than other key bindings. And once you get use to using them, you don't even really notice the highlighting selections because you are so fast anyway. It works well out of the box and can be config'd to have whatever bindings you like easily in the toml file. My one gripe with it is the lack of plugin support to make it even more extensible.

[@randomdamian]

I love NANO wtf you mean bro? ctrl + x then Y to confirm

[@c0ldfury]

Not liking nano was literally a skill issue. The skill being "reading what's on screen".

[@robertfletcher8964]

its easy to use, its just sorta shit

[@cgme9535]

Nano is nice for beginners. If you know the same shortcuts in something like VIM, I wouldn’t bother with nano.

[@CatFace8885]

@@cgme9535 Yeah, Nano seems great if you're just a casual Linux user who doesn't do much coding or text-editing tbh. I think it fills that niche pretty well. But I also absolutely don't get why you would use it if you have competence in Vim 🤷‍♀

[@utkarsh1874]

nano hate is unjustified you know when you need shit done asap in prod you pull out what gets work done quick

[@askeladden450]

​@@utkarsh1874nano gets work done quick? Its clunky asf. Its only good for changing config files less than 10 lines.

[@wiono]

20 years ago we had HTML 2.0, static web pages with a little bit of javascript and css. Flash was used if you needed some really fancy animations and games. Notepad, MS Word, MS Frontpage was sufficient to create simple web pages. I miss those times.

[@tuananhdo1870]

But that was webpage is ugly. You miss the whole point

[@SilverDashie]

This is good. The Debug spaghetti spilling all over the floor when showing off something you made is perfect. Every creator goes through this. I love it

[@joelpww]

For sure have notepad++ for exactly what they were saying. Editing co fig files and other little files. I use different things now but its still there. Tabs alone should have notepad++ high asf. Also its really good on history

[@youtindia]

Yay, My editor IntelliJ made it to the top. I use it with their official vim plugin which is really good and well integrated. It's actually really good for web development. Best of both vim keybindings and all the fancy powerful features that come with it by default.

[@ubermenschen01]

As someone who uses VSCode for powershell scripting and markdown, I find the breathless fervor around various funny combinations of letters interesting. On the one hand, neat to see people geek out about their tools. On the other, it sounds like cargo-cult mentality: "You must memorize the runes and abandon your peripherals to be included in the inner circle".

[@atiedebee1020]

I feel like kakoune was undersold. Its not just about the reverse motions (which do make it easier to discover the editor), but its about the philosiphy behind it. I'd read their manifesto since it is a lot more than just "reversed vim"

[@Jmcgee1125]

1:35:38 I definitely feel that. I'm currently in the transition to Neovim from VSCode and it's nice to just throw the mouse at a problem instead of trying to wrangle the keyboard into it. As I learn the bindings I'll get better, so yeah it is a skill issue.

[@tuananhdo1870]

How about now. Are you happy with vim

[@Jmcgee1125]

Currently my primary editor. I can't live without the line-focused editing and those great macros (motion-based macros are super useful). There's tons of other features I like - it's kind of like recommending an OS to someone: there's no single feature that I feel is "the reason you use it," it's the collection of features and the "style" of editing that makes it work so well.

[@PaulSpades]

MS Notepad - Borland Studio - Kate - Visual Studio Express - Textmate - Sublime Text - Php Storm - Sublime Text 2 I just want to point out that multiple line editing was first in Sublime text, and it saved years of editing markup and css for me.

[@ego-lay_atman-bay]

I'm not gonna lie, I like vscode. At least for me, it's fast. The only slow parts are extensions, like starting live server preview. Personally for me, I like using the mouse for jumping to different parts in my code, not selecting or other things, I use the keyboard for quick navigation, selecting, moving around lines, typing, and the normal text editing stuff. The only time I ever use the mous is hen I'm ju,ping to different parts in my code, double clinking a word to select it, ui stuff, and putting down cursors. When I have to click and drag to select, I can never get it accurate, so I avoid that as much as possible. Oh, and just saying, the binary runs great on my pc, the web version runs super slow.

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

i liked vscode too because i could ctrl click on shit to go to its definition or i could see all the references to a thing and go to them quickly. then a few guys left the company and we inherited their work for the time being. the work i was doing required me to run the whole stack (several servers and some client applications) on my machine. i figured out how to do it and wrote a tmuxinator file for it (in wsl), but i was already exhausting my memory and I didn't have a lot of ram left after running the whole shit. when i fired up vscode in wsl to go to work, wsl would often run out of memory and freeze up until I killed it. I couldn't increase the memory given to wsl any more because i would run out of memory on the host machine. i ended up ditching vscode and learning vim because of the lower memory footprint. i can have 4 instances of vim open no problem but 4 instances of vscode is not possible for me

[@daliareds]

My main problem with Prime's argument against Helix is that he literally uses DVORAK. So the whole "learn a thing that you can't take anywhere" falls apart right there. I'm certain that whenever he has to type on QWERTY, he does it just fine. It's not like learning the motions of one thing removes all others from your memory

[@brod515]

that's an interesting point.

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

I actively recommend people don't use dvorak it was a mistake i made because i didn't have a proper keyboard and its a HUGE effort to go back to qwerty (though i am considering it)

[@PamellaCardoso-pp5tr]

​@@ThePrimeTimeagen ever heard about the broken bycicle experiment? Its an experiment made by a guy who forced himself to only use a broken bycicle for months. Once He tried to go back to a normal one he just couldnt do it anymore, but after keep trying for a couple minutes, suddenly his brain "clicked" and he was able to use the normal bycicle again, but not only that, He became able to use both bikes with no problem at all. So if you just go back to qwerty it Will take you only a couple hours of trying before your brain recovers the muscular memory for qwerty again.

[@ivanjermakov]

@@ThePrimeTimeagen yep, that's my take also. Ergonomic keyboard (split, column stagger) is times more important for productivity and health than a keyboard layout (I use Ferris Sweep, btw)

[@WHYUNODYLAN]

​@@ivanjermakov do you find the Ferris Sweep much better than a typical keyboard? I've been dealing with emacs pinky lately and I kind of want to try it

[@zZGzHD]

Nano ranking lower than Dreamweaver is our version of 9/11

[@woeky]

The argument against nano (don't know how to use it) is literally the argument most people use against vi / vim / neovim. But if that argument is used for those editors it's suddenly disregarded. There's some bias in this group.

[@goawqebt6931]

Of course, but that's kinda the point, it's not supposed to be objective or rational, just dudes talking about their subjective experience with editors

[@ImperiumLibertas]

nano is just too simple and I really dislike the keybinds.

[@dvxv4016]

Nano doesn't have a decent mouse support and doesn't have good key bindings at the same time

[@poika22]

vim is "hard to use" because it introduces a ton of features that you have to take an hour or two to learn and a week or two to grow fully accustomed to. nano is hard to use without introducing anything. you won't get any faster in nano with experience. you will with vim.

[@gljames24]

​@@ImperiumLibertasI'd recommend using micro.

[@d3stinYwOw]

Eclipse recently, after moving to versions starting with year, is actually pretty solid. PyDev is nice, C/C++ and tons of plugins for embedded development and tons of languages supported in general makes it pretty versatile tool in a pocket :)

[@cybernd78]

Even previously it was a decent choice. People tend to forget that it dominated the java industry for a decade and it did it for a reason.

[@ZandorDaysev]

@@cybernd78 Literally moved to Eclipse from IntelliJ. I am so done with JetBrains

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

did they finally get plugins/extensions/whatever to work? when i used eclipse years ago i could never install plugins because they always seemed to fail for some reason. at some point i started using vscode and most extensions installed just fine. now i use vim and it's even easier. I can't fathom shipping an ide as bad as eclipse

[@d3stinYwOw]

I only had issues with extensions which were not updated for a LONG time for a newer versions, except one - EmbSysDebug or something like this.Other than that - flawless

[@rickcanty]

I feel like anyone who trashes eclipse hasn't used it in the past decade. A common critique of eclipse I hear is that it doesn't have a dark mode, which it has had for a while.

[@rupuzzled]

Sublime text is the first thing I install on any OS. It is the only editor (in non-terminal) that can open a 5 GB file on windows and all the functionalities like syntax highlighting, search, replace , macros etc still work like charm. I still do all my development on Jetbrains products like Goland/Intellij, but once in a while when I have to inspect heavy files, they just give up.

[@DelgardAlven]

A point for that point. Lightweight and powerful in comparison for guis. Lacks some UI tweaking, but do its job super stable and fast.

[@LikeALeafOnTheWind]

010 editor. its my go to when i need to open up a 60 gig backup file and pull a table restore out of the middle of it. it is awesome when its what you need.

[@tuananhdo1870]

Switch from I’m jet brandy me to vs code

[@oventree]

absolutely no way they rated notepad so much higher than nano 😭

[@cericat]

Calling MS Frontpage or Dreamweaver actually useful is another WTF. Just give me notepad or nano at that point, the HTML will at least be readable.

[@dominikj111]

That was just fun and I'm glad I spent my time with you guys!

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

Hey, ty! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@Diamonddrake]

Weird there’s so much hate for visual studio(s) and eclipse, but if coming from neovim users it’s not surprising.

[@toby9999]

I use MS Visual Studio a lot (not vscode). I've been using it for almost 30 years. But Eclipse totally sucks big time, in my opinion. It's dreadful.

[@paulzupan3732]

The thing I like about Helix is that it’s not too far from Vim so the muscle memory doesn’t really get overwritten plus there are no plugins so all the nice features are built in

[@stevet7522]

Emacs in evil mode is surprisingly good

[@chri5toph_k]

Sublime is my second most used editor after Intellij, because I write math stuff in LaTeX with it and really like the snippet functionality (at least in Version 3). I have a shitton of snippets from single letters like a (which expands to \alpha) to complex environments. Sublime allows me to expand snippets inside of snippets and go through all remaining jump points in the right order. For some reason, I wasn't able to make that work with vim Ultisnips. Also it analyzes the environments (probably via AST), so I can define snippets in a way, that they expand e.g. only in math environments.

[@theMosen]

Thank you for putting DW and Editor in absurd categories early on so that I knew this wasn't a serious tier list and didn't have to waste much time watching it

[@cericat]

You missed the true insult, Frontpage in Actually Useful.

[@jrnas8046]

What notepad lacks in programming specific features it makes up for in bucket loads with convenience to write down random phone numbers and emails. The biggest "If I Have To" of all time, because I do use it all the time and nobody's opening Visual Studio to write down a couple of notes, and if I was just quickly showing a friend how to code on their computer I'd absolutely use notepad over begging them to install a more fully featured editor before they know what's going on. It's so bare bones that it actually does the job you expect it to really fkn well, which tbh is kinda better than using something that's meant to be more advanced but does it really fkn badly. Also as of Windows 11 it now has dark mode which basically makes it a fully fledged IDE at this point .

[@trns-7]

Emacs is one of the best editors, is not easy to start with it, but when you into it is amazing

[@sullerized]

agreed

[@flyingmadpakke]

Notepad++ will forever be goated for the simple fact that you will never again need to save your files.

[@tuananhdo1870]

Vscode have that auto save

[@acewright-n4q]

Nano is so easy to exit literally ctrl -x and then yes or no to save its great for quick edits on small files vs vi I am I in insert mode or command then i have to remember the : plus the commands.

[@barower]

helix has two big traits over nvim: - kakoune editing, which is actually a pro, not a con. Let's learn from our mistakes - batteries included - it probably works like your nvim configuration would work anyways, but doesn't require any plugins nor twiddling with config files. That itself makes it DTC at least

[@hamm8934]

The beauty of neovim is the configuration. If I didn’t want to fine then neovim to my liking, I’d just use VSCode.

[@KManAbout]

Imo the horror of nvim is the configuration. That's why I love helix

[@Gho73t]

Feels so good to see that i am not the only to be giga proud about something and then screw up the presentation in a meeting XD

[@metaltyphoon]

All game dev thinking: VS is painful? Try debugging c++ code else where and you will see what pain looks like. No tool in the universe comes close to VS for debugging C++ code. The debugger there alone is worth the price for the professional version.

[@Mallchad]

This is very melodramatic when you come to terms with how casually Visual Studio will block input, _when using a user input driven program meant to save you time_ Also having to create a solution when you just want to throw up an executable and start debugging is a massive waste of time

[@toby9999]

@@Mallchad That's got to be an edge case, right? I've been developing a Windows C++ developer for 30 years and I've never had to "throw up an executable and start debugging". I'm not even sure what that means. And "block input"... what's that about? If you need a solution, VS will create one. I've never needed to hand code one. And once you have one, its super convenient going forward, and it beats the crap one needs to go through with other sub-par IDEs. As a test, I've just opened a solution in VS 2022, and it took no more than 3 secs. Not sure where your "massive waste of time" happens?

[@PaulSpades]

Emacs was built in 1975, GNU Emacs was written by Stallman in 1984.

[@rudolf-adamkovic]

1976 and 1985, you are off by one on both. :)

[@cleverman383]

@@rudolf-adamkovic The two biggest problems that programmers have is off by one errors

[@bonsairobo]

Oh oh "Notepad was there for us" but nano was not? Da fuck?

[@CapnSlipp]

17:10 _”Yeah, that's a lot of these new editors; they're all just VSCode replicates. […] Zed, Fleet, Atom… Wait no, Atom…“_ It sounded like Primeagon was going to spill the history that Atom predates VSCode by a year… and VSCode is built on Atom (specifically, Electron, which was originally named Atom Shell).

[@CapnSlipp]

Nevermind, when they talked about Atom they went off on a tangent about Tree Sitter, totally ignoring Electron. Green Millennials.

[@jobinthomas6372]

Visual Studio 2022 loads very fast . They made some good changes. Big difference I would say compared to Visual Studio 2015 I am referring to a c++ project with a 200 files that I have to use at work . That is the comparison I am doing with 2022 vs 2015. Not sure about other languages less files.

[@FullGardenStudent]

either it truly loads very fast or you have a very powerful PC in 2022 than you did in 2015.

[@wartab]

Have to use it daily, it's very slow compared to CLion/Rider and it's worse.

[@yeahaddigirl]

Now that I've figured out how to call build tools from cli I'll never go back

[@pelataan69]

for me it lags like hell on relatively okay pc when writing C#

[@isodoubIet]

@@FullGardenStudent hardware gains since 2015 have been marginal at best

[@spencjon4822]

I did the Vim thing and am firmly in the vscode camp. It’s customizable and easy to use. But then I also use the terminal all the time in a bottom tab to do things like make new files/grep/etc

[@triplea657aaa]

I actually use Notepad++ very often. 99% of the time for notes, but I still use it for coding on occasion when I have to.

[@snake3444]

I met someone who didn't even know how to run a python script. He just always clicked the "Run" Button in vscode which pastet the whole path from C:// to the file in the embeded powershell and pressed enter for him. I felt a lot of pain that day.

[@Parker8752]

If you're willing to learn elisp, emacs offers literally everything atom did, without being an electron app. It's basically a lisp interpreter with a basic editor built in. I don't actually know how to use the built in emacs editor motions beyond C-p to go up a line, C-n to go down a line, and I think it's C-f and C-b to go forward and backward a character, because I just use evil-mode and have the best of both worlds.

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

can emacs also fix my marriage and pay my bills

[@Parker8752]

@@harleyspeedthrust4013It's a text editor, not a miracle worker

[@MaikKellerhals]

Welcome to the neoVIm fanclub meeting... I might learn it some day but i like GUIs and using my mouse. I guess I'm weird...

[@joshuahamill9864]

I genuinely forgot that CoffeeScript was a thing until this video brought it up.... so thanks for that reminder

[@jzmmm]

VSCode + vim is S-tier. Yes the new file thing is annoying, but it just works. Easy to get started which seems to be underrated quality amongst the nvim edgelords. Extensions are easy to manage, and the settings file is just easy to maintain. It's not slow (at least not until im inside a big monorepo and had the app open for days). That said, it's been 7yrs since i exclusively used terminal vim as my main editor, so i might give neovim a shot.

[@ilikerobotsalot]

No Kate, sessions concept where you can have projects and save the layout to exactly where you left off from (tabs open, window layout) is pretty useful if you jump between projects.

[@jiasheanleong7918]

tmux does it on Linux. not sure about macs or windows

[@gagagero]

You can do it with Emacs by running multiple servers.

[@JuusoAlasuutari]

You can save your layout and tabs by running your OS in a VM and saving literally the entire state of storage and RAM in a snapshot.

[@user-lk2vo8fo2q]

i had almost the exact same experience with emacs. used vim for ages, decided to give doom emacs a shot. liked it enough to use it for a little over a year, then took a bunch of ideas from it and made a really nice neovim config.

[@wumwum42]

I think helix/kakoune keybindings make SO MUCH more sense than vim's. 1:16:13 This hurts... Helix is the best editor ever!

[@boston.boston]

I use notepad++ for viewing all sorts of files and hexdumps, for coding I use VSCode, Visual Studio and IntelliJ, I generally use VSCode for viewing repositories I know I can't open successfully and want to be able to navigate to definitions/implementations

[@ShiloBuff]

It's crazy that Xcode is dogwater even though its "basically" the only IDE you can use to create iOS and Mac apps. I am a long time iOS developer, starting from back in the Objective-C days. Nothing was more painful than struggling with a hackingtosh, Xcode, and Objective-C. But that's not even the worst of it. What makes it the worst for me is the standard Apple has to "wall" everything and force developers and users into their own ecosystem and products. Really just rubs me the wrong way. Ontop of that, trying to publish an app only to cross your fingers that Apple decides your app is "worthy" to be on their app store.

[@Rainfires]

The “eMacs is like nano” is the farthest left field hot take I could have never imagined.

[@Mallchad]

Maybe if he's talking about µemacs:D

[@josecarlodolinermonacelli8771]

Notepad ++ has its uses, coding is just not one of them. It is really fast at opening large data files for example. You can also export color formating in a specific language so it is helpful when writing documentation.

[@RickyXV]

I actually like it to check stuff without having another tab in VS Code. Very useful for scripts, queries, etc.

[@peterkilian9100]

emacs is criminally over HATED. it is truly the best editor and this is coming from a guy who has used everything for extended periods

[@ShiloBuff]

I've been programming for decades and I am quickly becoming disappointed in myself that I haven't taught myself Vim or Vim Motions. This past couple months I have been very annoyed everytime I have to use my mouse. But I simply don't have the time to learn a new environment outside of VSCode right now. I still personally think "high level ide features" still will always be king when it comes to programming as it can improve productivity. But I definitely think im holding myself back by not using Vim Motions / macros. Someday I will take some time off work to toss myself in a Udemy course and forcing myself to try it.

[@brentsaner]

Run through the `vimtutor` command/program a couple times. It'll get you to the point where you can comfortably use vim as a daily driver after 30 mins to an hour of running through it.

[@tuananhdo1870]

Same here. I’m plan on helix. Because it’s more intuitive than vim and no need config

[@12crenshaw]

1:23:55 this exact issue I had with Intelij. It's so good I had no idea how to compile and manage build systems. Intelij just did everything for me, while when I had to do that in VSC I started to understand which parts need to be configured by me and I could automate things but I had to know how

[@farqueueman]

Editor: Windows Notepad > all. IDE: pft who needs that. Bwazingwy fwast.

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

gotem

[@LuxFerre4242]

The live debugging at the start made me feel so much better about myself. Just watching someone with so much more experience than me make a dumb mistake that i would make.

[@anj000]

1:26:10 bruuuuuh One time you are clinking on a file, second time you are clicking on a folder. You are doing two different things!!!! To create top level file just click on an empty space instead of a file and you will get drop down for creating files and folders. If you will click on a file that is inside a folder you will also not get the option to create a file so it is EXACTLY the same behavior.

[@torphedo6286]

I wrote batch scripts, Python, Rust, and PowerPC assembly in Notepad++. Works fine, not ideal for any large projects (more than like 2 files)

[@rocstar3000]

For me, Atom is just there to confuse me when I forget that Electron is called Electron and search something like "atom logo programming" to try to find it and I always end up searching for Tauri to remember the name.

[@joshuamccurry606]

Putting Notepad above Notepad++ is a travesty. It's objectively better than Notepad in every dimension.

[@toby9999]

I use Notepad a lot whenever I want something quick and simple to edit plain text. It's great for that. Never tried Notepad++.

[@bonsairobo]

Never in my life did I expect a neovim user to put Notepad at the top rank.

[@sillymesilly]

Simplicity rules

[@nextlifeonearth]

Nano is like the Linux console Notepad. It's the default, you can get your job done, it's not a bloody construction light like notepad is. Nano is fine, if I have to.

[@bonsairobo]

VSCode is not that heavy. 165M for my large open project, which is pretty reasonable for an always-open program. And just because it has jr dev UX wins doesn't mean it's bad for power users. It is hackable with many good plugins. It has a very nice rust-analyzer plugin. The CodeLLDB plugin is awesome for debugging (one place where GUI is nice). It has vim keybindings and sublime keybindings plugins. It has SSH remote editing and live share collaborative editing. But if you don't like a GUI editor than you just won't like it. Prime and friends are simply wrong on this take, and their justification is incredibly hypocritical, claiming that VSCode users only use it b/c they don't want to learn another editor, when Prime suffers from the same exact problem. BTW this is coming from someone who mained vim at work for years and still has the keybindings burned in to my hands.

[@somenameidk5278]

you had a good experience with codelldb? i tried using it and it would miss breakpoints, get the line it was on wrong and often jumped into the dissasebly view for no good reason. i guess it maybe works better with rust than c++?

[@roskapostit2609]

You have to count all the processes what it fires up. I checked the thing few days ago and there was 12 processes up and running total 1.3 Gb ram usage (in idle with no open files). EDIT: some plugins was loaded but if I remember right w/o any extensions the mem usage was way over 0.5G. btw. nvin with a bunch of plugins only 63M...

[@JapaAppa]

@@roskapostit2609 why would this even matter when its quickly becoming standard for devices to have 64+gb of ram?

[@roskapostit2609]

@@JapaAppa You open a 12 character long "Hello World!" text file and it will take over a gigabyte of RAM ?! Come on, wake up. Bloated like a hell -> it will be very slow when the project grows. It's just madness.

[@poika22]

@@roskapostit2609 RAM usage doesn't grow linearly with project size. my vscode with some extensions and 10 files open is currently taking 328MB. which I could not care less about. I wouldn't care if it was 3gb. but if the project was twice that size, it wouldn't take twice as much RAM. it'd take a tiny amount more. that ram overhead is there to run the bloated baseline UI, not because it somehow scales projects weirdly.

[@sullerized]

the emacs disrespect is insane

[@anj000]

If I SSH somewhere I will always use nano. It is just simple and straightforward. VI and others are too complicated to even type a single character.

[@anj000]

I know this list is ment to be bad, but putting Notepad very high above Notepad++ is insane.

[@conorx3]

if you do the tutorial, vim feels really simple, faster to write with too.

[@anj000]

@@conorx3 how much are you writing when connected through SSH really? I don't need speed to edit some god damn config file somewhere remote. And if I have to do very extensive editing then I feel like there should be a different workflow than doing it through the SSH. I much more prefer GUI based systems. Keyboard shortcuts look flashy and cool, but I find it hilarious watching people navigate though folders for minutes, while I could do it by two clicks in seconds. Also when they are searching for the perfect keyboard shortcut to do this one specific thing, that could be accomplished by simply clicking 3 times trough a drop down menu.

[@Blaisem]

skill issue

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

​@@anj000notepad is goated though. you don't have to install anything else and it doesn't bug you about updates when you open it. it also uses less memory and it comes on every windows machine by default so you know it's good

[@-vhs]

Visual Studio 2022 for C# is very nice, and only for C++ somewhat good as well, but for other languages, it may not be as suitable. However, for those two languages, it is very, very nice. But I also don't respect the opinions of those who unironically put Notepad at the top, so you may disregard my opinion ^^

[@lenzokun]

Bruh, neovim and vim are pretty much the same. In terms of language support you can just pick what you want in the make config. Most the contributors to both neovim and vim are also pretty much the same as well. You can legit just select lua support in vim if that's what makes or breaks an editor for you. The vim9 script not being backwards compat sucks but if it improves the config lang then why not? still think that imho Helix and Kakoune should be up higher on the list.

[@TeaMergency]

"We floated HARD" That's when i lost it!! Speaking from experience...

[@MrEylith]

notepad actually useful and VS painful ? Are you guys really working in the industry ?

[@JackDespero]

Emacs is that editor that my white beard mentor for our scientific code used. He would search "flags" and do magic moving around files like a crazy man until he found the solution within seconds, while it would have taken me hours of shifing around all the possibilities found by grep, etc. But I once opened it and I was like "nah, I am definitively a vim guy". Apparently they released the new Emacs version and everybody, including this man, hated it with passion. So much so that he bought a new old laptop which still had the old version, since the laptop given by the lab only had the new version available.

[@justanothercomment416]

Seeing comments like this are kinda funny. Literally, there is no editor worth using which isn't influenced or directly ripping off either emacs or vi (vim). There's a reason why these are still used and used by the cream of the crop of developers. There's a reason why so many editors poorly rip of features from them. Anyone not using these tools are self sorting themselves into the developer pecking order. Developers need to decide where they want to professionally reside in productivity and usefulness; assuming they have the knowledge and talent to reside at the top in the first place.

[@Mallchad]

Emacs users just really are used to their environment. When they get updates sometimes it changes that and its really annoying. it's kind of like if something changed the command key in vim... its the same level of offputting. to be fair. emacs is so hackable and fully featured you can just as easily use emacs 18 as you can emacs 30 if you know how to code.

[@claytonreardon42069]

I kind of view nano as the notepad of linux. Its always there, even when vim isnt, like on a base Debian install. Its super simple, literally all the keybinds are there for you. Its just meant to be a simple quick terminal editor.

[@mage3690]

IMHO gedit should be the notepad of Linux. IDK if it's on every distro like nano probably is, but it has decent syntax highlighting by default, so it's good enough for me.

[@AndersJackson]

Editing on server, I use Tramp-mode in Emacs from my machine and edit the file through ssh remotely. No need to use vim nor nano on server. I use ed in sameway I use vi/vim.

[@Ahmad-lc1ln]

17:05 Lapce is written in Rust, it's gonna kill VSCode in the future.

[@_Pyroon_]

Hahaha, the distribution of most examined parts of the video: emacs

[@draakisback]

This tier list is kind of silly. I get the rationale and yeah, I'm an older programmer too who does remember all of these older editors, doesn't mean I want to bust out Dreamweaver right now. Shit only works for frontend stuff. And intelij is not top tier either. It's a huge messy java ide that has plugins for other languages. It's just as messy as eclipse, and there is a reason why jetbrains keeps trying to make new editors aka fleet. My daily driver is emacs, specifically doom emacs with evil mode. You guys talk about how great neovim is, except it's a fucking nightmare to install on windows. Vscode gets props even if I don't use it because they standardized the language server via LSP. Yes it's an electron app so it eats a ton of memory but emac uses LSPs now, and so do a lot of other editors because they make the most sense.

[@darthcabs]

Different criterias for different editors makes this tier list absolutely unfair

[@curtprasky3440]

Not only do I not use nano, I actually remove it from my linux installations. One thing I find annoying these days is that for most current distros, I actually have to deliberately install vim (I'm a vim guy, BTW) whereas back in the day, if you installed linux, you automatically had vim. The only distro I can think of off the top of my head for which this is still true is Slackware, which I still love, but am not currently using (I'm in one of my adventurous, experimental moods). The first time I installed CentOS (or was it Fedora?) and typed in % vim and got the "command not found" response I experienced a moment of profound panic, like walking down a stairway and discovering the missing step.

[@ukyoize]

nano just works and you don't have to learn a tutorial to edit text files

[@curtprasky3440]

@@ukyoize Of that I have no doubt. I simply don't like it. Until fairly recently, I was an ardent vim user, but I have become an apostate and converted to the Church of Emacs. Though Emacs purists might take issue with the fact that I use evil mode. There is just something about the vim bindings that sinks into your brain and muscles and they just feel completely natural. I don't get that with the bindings in other editors, such as nano, for example.

[@nexovec]

I am a pretty happy helix user. Just like Odin, it's joyful to program in.

[@Mojo_DK]

Y'all disrespecting ma boi Helix just makes me sad.

[@lindamavimbela2744]

If you take someone struggling with vim motions to helix/kakoune they would learn it so fast and be able to get vim motions. Recommended for LowLevel to try for a day.

[@tomtech1537]

L take on Vscode there's a reason that most people use it. It doesn't stop you from learning grep, cli or actual systems, that's just developers in general. Agree on the file creation, often ends up in wrong dir when creating/moving Startup time is dogwater but normal performance is file, some clients I edit over RDP on a VM and it's usable.

[@Tubetactullar]

It would probably fall under "who" for most of chat but kde's editor Kate is a really nice alternative to notepad++ like editor. It's also available for windows.

[@samuelkunkel7657]

Literally the CTRL + P example, presented for neovim, is also present in vscode to open files. Using the same shortcut. (And it works pretty smooth)

[@scythazz]

Yea but the idea is that if u use something like vscode, you will get stagnated and won’t know that there is much more out there. I think the better argument is knowing vim doesn’t necessary mean you are a better engineer. It just means you know vim. Not everyone wants to spend hours configuring an editor. Knowing vim doesn’t equate to better engineer…

[@deanolium]

Plus you can then just type a `>` to then go into command mode. Also you can easily just pop a terminal open in VSCode to do your command line stuff. I oscillate between VIM and VSCode, and I have to say that VSCode is fantastic once you have it set up to how you like working. It's also pretty lightweight for me, but that's partially down to what extensions you have installed.

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

​@@deanoliumthe terminal is vscode is obnoxious imo. it just sits there taking up screen space and you have to click a tiny x button to close it. also, in one of our codebases there's some jest thing that brings the vscode terminal up every so often and i have to close it again. I don't think it's actually running any tests but the shit it prints to the terminal doesn't give any hints. I don't know if it's an extension or one of the test shaman's infernal scripts. in comparison, vim + tmux is so much nicer. if you want to have a terminal open while you edit, you can bring one up easily by creating a tmux pane. when you want it to go away, you can either kill it or zoom in on your vim pane. you can have as many terminals as you want and you can put them wherever you please. if you're so inclined you can also just run shell commands in vim and you don't have to click some tiny buttons. my favorite thing is that there is no terminal popping up at random times with some nonsense about jest

[@poika22]

@@scythazz even if vim did take hours to configure (it doesn't), it's not like the "devs" who can't be bothered to spend an hour to configure their IDE will be productive and efficient on any other IDE. it shows their attitude (and skillset) in general if something like configuring you IDE is too much to ask.

[@l3lackoutsMedia]

The beginning felt like the typical "demonstration effect"