Vegetarian vs Vegan: Health Impacts on Longevity, Cancer, and Brain Health | The Proof Clips EP

Join me in this clip from episode #293, where Gary Fraser and I engage in a riveting exploration of vegetarian and vegan dietary patterns. This episode brings to light the latest scientific research, offering a deep dive into how these diets affect our health in ways you might find surprising.
We discuss:
• The intriguing health implications of vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian diets, especially regarding longevity.
• Unexpected findings on the health outcomes of vegans, examining gender differences and the impact of body mass index.
• A thought-provoking analysis of different vegetarian diets, which may challenge your existing notions.
• An in-depth look at dairy consumption and its connection to specific health concerns.
• The essential role of certain nutrients in vegan diets, crucial for maintaining neurological health as we age.
Be sure to tune in to this episode of "The Proof" for an enlightening conversation. Gary and I unravel the complexities of plant-based diets and their significance for our health. Episode #293 is one you definitely won't want to miss!
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[@donnae9566]

I'm remaining vegan regardless of any findings. My life will not depend on the demise of other species.

[@mikrobspen]

The more people who become vegan the more animal suffering will decrease. However, ending breeding livestock will lead to the demise of cows, pigs & chickens more quickly.

[@arkytitan]

@@mikrobspen you may think about it this way. OR, you may think that this put an end to a life in endless cycle of slavery of those species, forced bred specifically to be held as meat/milk/eggs slaves. And what's more important, reduction in animal agriculture reduces pressure on actual wildlife species whose habitats are being consistently destroyed in order to keep expanding the land needed to keep increasing the force breeding.

[@bonsummers2657]

@@arkytitan We make plants slaves to us too. Omnivore for the win.

[@arkytitan]

@@bonsummers2657 well, even if we for some reason equate plants and animals with highly developed nervous system, growing animals to be killed for meat takes an order of magnitude (at least 10 times) more plants than for direct feeding to humans for equivalent amount of calories and essential nutrients. Now that's just physical reality, the way of how to incorporate this knowledge into your world views is up to you.

[@bonsummers2657]

@@arkytitan And, personal results in regard to dietary practices with ones body is the primary driver of reason.

[@joeltremblay9408]

Awesome conversation, I took notes. I am an SDA and I have been vegetarian for 44 years and vegan for 30 years. I am in perfect health but I am going to be careful with my Omega 6 intake. I already use B12 and DHA/EPA supplements. I love your podcast, thanks Simon.

[@Jesse47249]

Dude, it must have been hard to be a vegan back then! I truly admire you for being so consistent! Regarding supplements: B12 it's an indispensable one for vegans and I've started taking DHA recently, I've read that taking DHA and EPA together can negate each other benefits... So I only take DHA mainly for brain health. Vitamin D combined with K2 is a good one too but I don't take it because I'm vegan but because I don't get enough sun exposure.

[@jonahwhale9047]

@@Jesse47249 Vegan in the 1990s? The funny thing is, back in the 80s & 90s, vegan foods were actually better, i.e. high quality, whole food, almost zero processed junk & a greater concern about the ethics. The big corporations hadn't started to gear up to exploit the vegan market year so far more was fresh, local, hand made, fair trade, organic etc. Veganism was a social movement, not a marketplace.

[@eswyatt]

Simon is more willing than any other nutrition commentator to go wherever the data takes him. I think the truth is that there are downsides to every diet. The goal is to balance the trade-offs.

[@bonniek7228]

Why does Dr. Greger’s and the Sherzais’s analysis of the same data find in favor of a vegan or plant exclusive diet? And there needs to be data differentiating whole food plant based and vegan. I worked at Advent health and there’s a lot of vegan bacon and luncheon meat eaten by Adventist’s (all kinds of “processed foods). I think there needs to be a lot more research before announcing that dairy is a health food.

[@Lieutenant-Dan]

This is why nutrition science is a bit of a circus, there's just too many confounding factors and vested interests.

[@csmgriffith]

Super clip, thank you!

[@aubreyvandyne5284]

That was very interesting. Thanks Simon.

[@ritajhorn3585]

Great information, thank you

[@pedro.almeida]

Very interesting. Anyway I would be careful about making drastic changes about current diet pattern, assuming it’s already mostly plant dominant, because in the end if you torture data enough, you can make it confess almost anything. In the end what you can happily eat in a consistent manner will be most optimal.

[@kst157]

Outstanding! 👍

[@heshamaldhahiry95]

With all these "diets" everyone is confused and overthinking. I tried both plant based and animal based "diet" and they both made me feel very good. Energy on both, in the end its safe to say that eating whole foods without any harmful chemicals and less ingredients will promote a healthy body. Maybe not mind, since in order to reach a higher consciousness you must go plant based(according to ayurvedic medicine).

[@Mrm1985100]

Interesting how the Sherzais saw the opposite with vegetarians in their experience, with very low dementia: watch: Neuroscientists AKA "Brain Docs" Drs. Ayesha & Dean Sherzai at minute 7:10

[@hugomarquez3189]

A vegetarian diet with some fish? Then it’s not a vegetarian diet. Let’s agree on the terms here.

[@Mrm1985100]

Yeah, it's not vegetarian at that point

[@lynchs2441]

Pescatarian is quite common term to use for such a diet

[@GarudaLegends]

It is vegetarian.

[@hugomarquez3189]

@@GarudaLegends veg·e·tar·i·an /ˌvejəˈterēən/ noun noun: vegetarian; plural noun: vegetarians a person who does not eat meat, and sometimes other animal products, especially for moral, religious, or health reasons. adjective adjective: vegetarian relating to the exclusion of meat or other animal products from the diet. "a vegetarian restaurant"

[@GarudaLegends]

@@hugomarquez3189 a vegetarian who eats meat every blue moon for what ever reason is still a vegetarian. Vegetarians eat animals all the time, just rarely.

[@lalonkarim3040]

Hey Simon, what is the relationship of longevity with egg consumption? Wish there was a specific discussion on eggs too in this part.

[@carolineklutsch2514]

Me too

[@classicgameplay10]

People should start making an habit of putting all the refetences for people to look. Specially when you claim to have data to suggest something.

[@MyTruth1771]

Wow!!!

[@isisneteru1013]

But is it not old news that you have to balance 1:4 omega 3 to 6? Would that optimize conversation to DHA and EPA?

[@lotembenatar7163]

I have some controversial thoughts about this video. Firstly, vegetarians do get some DHA from eggs and dairy, and the maximum amount the brain and eyes can accumulate DHA is up to 5mg daily. Even one egg provides approximately 30mg of DHA, which is more than sufficient to avoid deficiency. So, I don't think that those neurological issues are due to DHA deficiency.

[@RiDankulous]

The more you tell me what I want to hear, the more I like you! 😆 I won't take supplements until we have randomized controlled trials proving they will work, or fix an issue, such as was done with B12.

[@plantbasedposer]

Dr Rick Dina has been testing vegans for their omega 3 index for years and says that the raw vegans who eatlots of greens(omega 3) but low omega 6 nuts have good omega 3 indecies when tested. So i think the theory of keeping omega 6 to 3 ratio in check could be sound

[@k.michaelsmith2630]

I think after hearing this much, I would say that perhaps what you call adverse neurological outcomes might possibly include one's that affect the outcome of the norm in a negative manner 🙏💞

[@McCaffreyPickleball]

Yeah.... Very curious why supplementing DHA wouldn't have the same impact as consuming fish directly when DHA has been assumed to be the main beneficial nutrient

[@johnstockman1]

I may be wrong here, I've had the same question before as well. My understanding with EPA and DHA particularly, is that those nutrients in fish are more bio available and easily used by the human body than that found in supplement. Again, I'm no expert, just something I've read.

[@McCaffreyPickleball]

@@johnstockman1 thanks! Yeah that makes sense. Is that specific to vegan supplements... Or is that true if fish oil based supplements as well?

[@johnstockman1]

@@McCaffreyPickleball I believe supplements in general. Maybe the nutrients are more easily assimilated in their natural "package" so to speak, instead of isolated and extracted. Just a thought

[@JamesDurcan]

ADA issued statement 2 years ago stating that a well planned vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of life from pregnancy to elderhood.We can go back and forth all day on the nuances / pros/ cons of every ovo- lacto- Pesco type diets etc… but fact remains pretty sound. So we have to ask ourselves : Why are we strengthening ( and teaching our kids to strengthen) these inherently violent and foul systems..?

[@krissalmon7875]

Hello Simon. I need clarification of this subject matter please. A recent convert to Veganism (from 50 years of Veggie lifestyle). I am 65 and concerned about brain dementia now because I don’t get much Omega 3. How do we stay brain strong over 65? Please help! Thanks! LOVE your channel!

[@Mrm1985100]

It's likely based on this study: DOI: 10.1080/21551197.2021.1965939 It's a very small study. The few people (about 16 vegetarians) that had problems only had mild memory loss, with many having only very mild memory loss. It may have been that people switched to a vegan diet because they were already experiencing health issues. We don't know their B12 status. We don't really know what they eating. We don't know if they chose to be part of the study because they were having problems (pre-selection bias). If he's talking about this study I gave the DOI of, it's very weak and doesn't really prove much at all.

[@classicgameplay10]

Suplement with dha and epa.

[@DanielBarber-mo2en]

Omega 3 , is in flaxseeds , walnuts, ext , for vegans no problem

[@pr1stvan]

But not everybody can convert it in the same percentage

[@ilonabaier6042]

What about all the microplastic and other gunk in fish?

[@jakobw135]

What do you say to the evidence both epidemiological and PCDB studies of Dr Michael Greger et al - showing that vegans do better than those on the Mediterranean diet?

[@jonahwhale9047]

Greger doesn't seem to do any research, isn't it? He just reads out other people's papers.

[@pabloqueiroz7230]

11:52 On what base Fraser presumes vegans have a lot of omega 3 in their diets ?!

[@jonahwhale9047]

As a vegan, I think we should always err on the most conservative side of caution & not make unrealistic health claims for the lifestyle in the way that, e.g. the raw or fruitarian movements do. One question that comes to my mind is, given that the vegan movement remains a young movement, young in the age of the movement rather than the individuals, how can we make any claims at all regardingly longevity, "all cause mortality" etc? How much of any vegan's health is based not just on their genes, but also their pre-vegan heealth status which may be statistically good or bad, e.g. the difference betweeen those with robust health coming in for the sake of ethics, & those with poor health coming in for the sake of perceived health benefits. Until we have a significant number of 'born vegans', we really have no grounds to make any such claims.

[@Mrm1985100]

If these neurological issues in vegans are a real problem, and not some statistical mistake, I wonder if it was more of a B12 issue rather than omega 3. The fact that Fraser mentions vegans AND LOW dairy vegetarians would seem to point more to B12 than to omega 3. Dairy is not a great source of omega 3. I wonder if the vegans were not supplementing with B12 and got very low over many years. This study on vegan Adventists, where 15% were not supplementing adequately, supports my point: doi: 10.1093/cdn/nzaa008

[@Amanda_downunder]

Dr Klaper levels were low, he made a video.

[@Mrm1985100]

@@Amanda_downunder Omega 3 blood levels appear to not be reliable. There is new research coming out on this. Body tissue levels can be much higher

[@doddsalfa]

We need Nagra to evaluate

[@Mrm1985100]

It likely this study which they may have further analysed: DOI: 10.1080/21551197.2021.1965939

[@DanielBarber-mo2en]

To me there is no doubt in my mind of the benefits of vegan way , whole food of course , mainly raw Iny case 42 years , vegan . Just test for yourself , then you know. Its great education , been great , many long term vegan just quietly get on with , with no doubts at all .

[@greggbambu411]

Dr Furman stated the same concerns that vegans later in life get neurological problems. He talks about how he has cared for the elders of the vegan community and has witnessed this first hand.

[@Amanda_downunder]

I had to give up on plant diet, my nervous system and cognitive function was worse. Am ketovore now. brain needs fats, not carbs / sugars.

[@annan3904]

Dr Fuhrman got shot down terribly by the plant/starch community on this topic which he thoroughly backs with science. These plant based fractions have got a get a grip and follow the evolving science.

[@wendywitchner6790]

⁠​⁠@@Amanda_downunderDr T Colin Campbell, Dr Caldwell Esselstyn( both are now 90 and vegan) , Dr Ellsworth Wareham (died at 104 SDA and Vegan for over 50 yrs). All 3 have/ had high functioning brains in old age.

[@GarudaLegends]

​@@wendywitchner6790Dr Ellsworth Wareham ate fish. He was a meat eater and not vegan.

[@Amanda_downunder]

💟👌@@wendywitchner6790

[@BryanMartinlaxcoach]

So, we are not talking plant based whole foods here? Vegan is different.

[@GarudaLegends]

Plant Based has dairy, meat, honey, and eggs in it. Vegetarian is plant based, while vegan is not plant based.

[@Lieutenant-Dan]

Not worth arguing semantics, it's already understood that the Adventists all consume healthy diets primarily of whole foods so it's not really necessary to specify "whole food" plant based.

[@Mrm1985100]

@@Lieutenant-Dan About 15% of vegan Adventists don't consume the RDA of B12

[@Lieutenant-Dan]

@@Mrm1985100 thanks for the info...

[@Mrm1985100]

This is likely the study, which they may have further analysed: DOI: 10.1080/21551197.2021.1965939

[@MistyBell13]

Yes let's all eat more fish, we haven't quite destroyed our oceans from over fishing! The diet conversations are farcical and completely meaningless if we aren't considering the environmental impact. In addition, did these vegans eat a whole food plant based diet or junk vegan food?

[@George2647g]

Wow very surprising.. Would also be curious why pescetarians did the best - is it exclusively because their 'omega6/omega3' balance is so good? Really very curious.. Consider that I am a vegan who consumes large quantities of tofu - I wonder if the supplementation of omega 3 I am doing is doing anything at all because the omega6 has taken up all room so to speak.. 🤔🤔

[@knockingseeker]

Might be worth reducing tofu intake and replacing fat from flax or walnuts or even mono fats. As well as algi based supplement I did that for this reason and if I require more protein use soy based textured vegetable protein. Still have tofu but limited

[@tofu-munchingCoalition.ofChaos]

​​@@knockingseeker Do you think limiting tofu makes really a difference. I get barely enough Omega6 judging from the RDA and tracking via Cronometer. Abd I eat tofu regularly and drink soy milk. I also eat sunflower seeds, ... My ratio Omega6:Omega3 intake is almost exactly 3:1. Omega3 from flax seeds mostly. Then canola oil and then DHA&EPA supplement.

[@knockingseeker]

@@tofu-munchingCoalition.ofChaos I don’t know. I don’t think the data shows long term health outcomes on a 4:1 compared to say a 2:1. I would not think so however getting to a 3:1 is very hard. Does not sound like you are calculating the ratio right, even flaxseeds are a 4:1 ratio favouring omega 6

[@tofu-munchingCoalition.ofChaos]

​@@knockingseeker Sorry, the initial comment (you answered fast) confused Omega3 and Omega6 in the ratio. The calculation is by Cronometer. I've just put the food in. My point is more about the Omega6. Reducing tofu (soy milk or sunflower seeds) would get me under the RDA for Omega6. Perhaps that's just me. And I get slightly better than the recommendedratio 3:1 (which I see recommend) despite tofu ... .

[@knockingseeker]

@@tofu-munchingCoalition.ofChaos I’m not sure if chronometer is correct but if it is then no reason to limit the tofu if your not even hitting omega 6 rdi. Your intake of tofu is probably “limited” I used to consume 1-2 blocks a day Might be worth adding in omega 3 to get as close to 1:1 as possible.

[@SMT_2024]

regarding to differences between women and men within this subject… most of the women are emotional beings, a future discussion about the disadvantages in “having a heart” it will be very interesting, what do you think Simon? this topic it is worth attention to it? Happy New Year and best wishes !

[@aurelienb9109]

Dude, lots of vegan eat oils, craps and don’t focus on flaxseeds and other omegas 3 rich foods. So eating dairy and fish is clearly not what suggests the data in those studies.

[@SunFellow941]

A new medical soap opera scene for vegans. New research, that hasn't been peer reviewed yet, indicates greater risk of neurological diseases. I can remember hearing about things like this 18 years ago, and now the controversy is coming back. Even back then I wanted to take DHA but balked at the price. If this research stands up to scrutiny, we'll all be adding a second must-have supplement to our plant-based diets.

[@Mrm1985100]

Not that one observational study, in which many of the vegans only became vegan in their 60s and 70s, would be enough to prove that.

[@viviendaquino8364]

Is anyone else totally confused by this as it conflicts with what Drs Dean and Ayesha Sherzai say?

[@Mrm1985100]

Yeah, it's pretty wacky and highly speculative at this point. A couple of things to bear in mind are that 15% of Adventist vegans were not getting the RDA of B12. Also many of the "vegan" Adventists actually only switched to vegan diets in their 60s and 70s: this could be due to their health already failing as they aged. Adventists don't go vegan for ethical reasons but primarily for health.

[@Mrm1985100]

It's likely based on a further analysis of this study, which is pretty weak: DOI: 10.1080/21551197.2021.1965939

[@viviendaquino8364]

@@Mrm1985100 The nuances are always more telling. This conversation is confusing because it doesn't offer any explanations. It throws up more questions than answers. Like omega 3 intake- plant or supplement- and lack thereof. Or B12 supplementation.

[@Mrm1985100]

@@viviendaquino8364 It's also based on very small numbers. In the study I posted above in total, with omnivores and vegetarians combined, about 26 people had mild memory loss: in about 13 of the 26 the memory loss was very mild. So we're likely talking about a total of 13 people with mild memory loss from both groups (omnivore and vegetarian). It's not like there were hundreds of vegans with dementia or alzheimers.

[@barbaramartinez7024]

Now I’m totally confused as a newcomer to the vegan/plant based world! Eat fish????

[@frompizzaaddicttovegan]

No as the fish get omegas from the algae so you can get it straight from the source with an algae omega supplement, easy to find. I’d recommend checking out the Brain Docs too, they have also been in this show (Ayesha & Dean Sherzai)

[@skippy6462]

I supplement omega 3 DHA & EPA every day along with B12, Vitamin D3 and iodine. Then it's Dr. Greger's DAILY DOZEN app for the rest of my plant based diet which includes, ground flaxseeds, ground chia seeds, walnuts etc Problems with eating fish are contamination and overfishing. Thing is I'm a vegan so wouldn't eat fish anyway. I'm doing well because I stopped alcohol years ago and I'm now trying to up my exercise for brain health benefits. Sleep too very important. I guess there's no guarantees but believe I'm doing the best I can for myself living life without harm.

[@michaelajaltouni3177]

Yes fish consumption might be a consideration but the very least an algae omega 3 supplement.

[@robertusga]

​@frompizzaaddicttovegan that's not what the studies find. Eating fish is healthier than just slurping algae.

[@frompizzaaddicttovegan]

@@robertusga well the fish get it from the algae. Check out the brain docs they also believe in science and the research and they would disagree.

[@brucejensen3081]

Yeah, getting enough protein with the elderly is an issue.

[@Primetime_dads]

So what in the hell is the best diet Pescatarian? Eggs, small amounts of dairy and fish a few times a week, but be majority plant based

[@ilonabaier6042]

we must await more research.

[@jonahwhale9047]

The best diet for the animals, is if humans follow a vegan lifestyle.

[@fortcastlevgn2368]

lies abouit the lies of omega 6 and omega 3 ratios (brooke goldner) only if you eat high omega6 blocking omega3

[@user-ce9xe1qe8i]

Heck yeah Pescatarianism lets gooooooo

[@Nadine56924]

I’m vegetarian I love low fat Greek yogurt dairy

[@brucejensen3081]

Non meat eaters are probably getting a bit much carbohydrate. Converting the sugar in milk (lactose) to lactase through fermentation must make a huge difference. Also converting the gluten through fermentation must make a big difference. Not only eliminating these things, but the now available microbes and enzymes must be hugely beneficial. Also take the vegetarians out of the mix that gorge on pizza every second day would have to change the outcome a lot. Add in vegetarians that eat eggs, that the hens have been fed high amounts of purslane, to get the omega 3's, where the hen has done some conversion of ALA. Also adding flaxseed oil to curried eggs you can't really taste the awful omega 3. Shit why do I care, I am omnivore. Lol. Nar, got to see what vegetarians and vegans are getting right and what could be beneficial. Time for a bourbon and smoke, that's vegan, so is fine. Yeah

[@barcalona55]

Vegetarian vs Vegan? More like Dumb vs Dumber 😹

[@NB-lx6gz]

This guy has the bluest eyes I've ever seen

[@Mrm1985100]

The study on vegans and vegetarians is very likely a further analysis of this study: DOI: 10.1080/21551197.2021.1965939