Wonder, Creativity, and the Personality of Political Correctness with Jordan Peterson

Today we have Dr. Jordan Peterson on the podcast. Dr. Peterson has taught mythology to lawyers, doctors and business people, consulted for the UN Secretary General, helped his clinical clients manage depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety, and schizophrenia, served as an adviser to senior partners of major Canadian law firms, and lectured extensively in North America and Europe. With his students and colleagues at Harvard and the University of Toronto, Dr. Peterson has published over a hundred scientific papers. Dr. Peterson is also author of two books: Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief and 12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos, which is a #1 bestseller.
In this wide-ranging conversation we discuss the following topics:
- Why “learned irrelevance” is incredibly important
- Why creativity requires keeping a childlike wonder
- How hallucinogens clear the “doors of perception”
- The “shared vulnerability” model of the creativity-mental illness connection
- The neuroscience of openness to experience
- The personality of personal correctness
- The practical implications of gender differences
- The function of the state in helping to make sure there is equality of individual expression
- How agreeableness and conscientiousness orient us differently in the social world
- The difference between pathological altruism and genuine compassion
- The link between pathological altruism and vulnerable narcissism
- The difference between responsibility and culpability
- How to help people take responsibility and make their lives better
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[@terranaut3314]

This is an amazing episode. It's not just Peterson "telling it like it is". He's actually captivated by the work you do, and posing questions. This is a great back and forth with a lot of great information from both parties.

[@naughteedesign]

this was an excellent interview, "dose of truth" sent me, subbed, keep doing what you're doing.

[@jonnekytola5513]

So frickin good! Makes me want to dive deep into the studies so I'll get better understanding about the subjects!

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Cool! That's our goal at The Psychology Podcast! :) All links to studies referenced in the conversation can be found in the official shownotes here: scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/

[@Doutsoldome]

+Jonne Kytölä Yep. Me too! +The Psychology Podcast Hey, thanks a lot for providing the sources!

[@f0rtitude]

Jonne Kytölä find the strategic steps to turn the fantasy into reality

[@jonnekytola5513]

The Psychology Podcast Thank you!

[@ChuckNastyMoreBlood]

This is a great interview with Jordan, not mediocre at all. It's great hearing someone interview Jordan that is familiar with psychology and not another layman. If you had video to accompany this audio, it would have tens of thousands of more views.

[@mongrelking5667]

I love how Jordan lights up when talking with a peer scientist instead of the usual journo hacks.

[@phoult37]

You two definitely need to chat again!

[@mustavogaia2655]

Is it possible to give two thumbs up on youtube? this episode deserves it.

[@eqapo]

JBP definitely inherits Freud's valorization of artistic creativity, his anxiety of "I only merely describe that which artists do" or some quote to that extent. It's not enough to be smart and creative, we deeply want to be seen and known to ourselves in the how and why if there be any possibility to be seen by others.

[@Secretname951]

I want to hear more conversations between the 2 of you! Have you spoke with John Verveake?

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Thanks! Yes, you can watch here: scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/awakening-from-the-meaning-crisis-john-vaervaeke/

[@MacBaza]

Good stuff. It's nice to hear Dr. JBP talk without him having to constantly defend himself against people who don't want to listen.

[@elektrochava]

Very illuminating conversation. Good to hear someone interviewing Peterson who actually knows what he is talking about.

[@Milestonemonger]

I would like to thank Dr.JBP for helping me find this channel.

[@phoult37]

No one wants equality of outcome for elem. teachers or construction workers; they just want it for CEOs and high-influence positions. In other words, it's just a power game.

[@AdamTheWilliams]

This was so incredibly wonderful. I could listen to you two talk for hours. Great stuff, man.

[@jamesdurowse7445]

great podcast, im a psychology graduate so ive been missing great psychological discussions and it was refreshing to listen to you both

[@Luck_x_Luck]

good distinction between culpability & responsibility, probably something that would be usefull in discussions of the "did not ask for it type", as that is where they almost always go off the track.

[@quad9363]

One of the best conversations with Peterson.

[@DanialDawson]

I wonder how the switching of networks pattern out in highly musically creative people when listening and when producing music. Great podcast!

[@therawfoodgod9882]

Awesome, have been listening and im excited to have a foot in chaos with you all as the frontier of new complexified information comes in as well as learning from wisdom

[@Stegosamus]

Subscribed! Looking forward to more conversations like this

[@meddlesomemusic]

Thank you for sharing such an exciting and exploratory conversation.

[@Wonderish403]

This is my favourite JBP interview thus far. A great example of how fast he thinks, thanks to the stimulating conversation. So interesting on so many levels!

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Thanks for the comment, Emily! We're delighted you enjoyed the interview.

[@SK_TorON]

Can you please give references to the papers (or perhaps preprints) related to the grandiose vs vulnerable narcissism (primarily I am interested in the latter "flavor"). From the brief description of the mapping of the vulnerable narcissism to the Big Five OCEAN traits which you have studied as part of your work, it seems to me that vulnerable narcissism can be studied in conjunction with the Big Five within the framework of Bayesian Networks in which i happen to have quite a bit of experience. If you are interested in exploring this further - get in touch!

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Thanks for your interest in the studies mentioned in the discussion! All links to studies referenced in the conversation can be found in the official shownotes here: scottbarrykaufman.com/podcast/

[@SK_TorON]

Thank you for the reply and for the references. Among many other things that are fascinating about vulnerable narcissism is (according to Elsa Ronnigstam's research, and in agreement with with my personal observations) is not so much increased sensitivity to criticism and/or disagreement, but the QUALITY of that sensitivity and the fact that the sensitivity can be only within a strictly delineated "domain of self-ascribed superiority". The domain-dependence seems to be easier to understand, but it is the specific quality of reaction to altering views that is truly indicative of vulnerable narcissism: it seems that the familiar "I am hurt" reaction (that is typical for most people who are surprised at being criticized) is interspersed in VNs with streaks of aggression, aloofness and moral superiority that are essentially cover-ups for the unwillingness to deal with one's vulnerability and less-than-perfection. Disentangling that almost elusive quality of their interpersonal sensitivity seems to me one of the key tasks in differentiating VN from a host of neuro-typical conditions. I'll study your paper in some detail, and I hope that Bayesian Networks can shed some light on this, perhaps only personal :), puzzle. Thanks again!

[@konberner170]

Great discussion!

[@thot4651]

Wow. As a "creative" it's like you guys threw open a door that explains some of my issues. I'm starting to understand why Peterson said you don't want to be CURSED with creativity.

[@Roescoe]

Oh when I saw his talk on creativity last year, I then solidified why having that creative drive was so double edged.

[@TheNethertyp]

Same for me. I have problems functioning in many situations and this explains why. For example, I hate going into a supermarket, especially if I'm in a foreign country, because I'm just overwhelmed and disoriented by the sheer amount of sensory information.

[@streglof]

Wow, you don't agree with everything Jordan Peterson says, yet you haven't called him a Nazi. This is very refreshing compared to other people who disagree with him.

[@Jusangen]

Really great interview-an boy was it interesting. A lot of videos with Jordan don’t get this high level, in the psychology-speak realm I mean. Most of the time he’s trying to bring things to a level folks can relate to and understand, but it was fun to here you both talk about research and traits. Keep it up man, I just subscribed!

[@64kdawg]

Great interview with Dr Peterson. Subbed and liked.

[@refugio7528]

This was way too short!!!

[@philiptheofanos5160]

Is it possible that the mechanism of switching from critical thinking to openness is similar to the sociolinguistic mechanism of "code switching", aka the interchange between different styles of communication depending on one's interlocutor? I.e.: addressing a seminar audience as a keynote speaker requires different language than what one uses when speaking to a grandmother or a close friend.

[@carlotapuig]

Amazing interview, it could have been 8 hours long...

[@daNihilism]

21:00 JBP Steelmans SJW, this is awesome.

[@randolfvandudenstein55]

great stuff!

[@marcoaslan]

Great channel, should get more subs

[@nedmcgehee8575]

so would you say that velnerable neuroticism is something that is necessary in desperate situations to produce ways out of that situation, or is "VN" more like a mental dissorder, something that needs to be cured?

[@eqapo]

Took the algorithm a while to finally recommend this to me. Quite a shame

[@tombanjo7392]

Labor of Love. Subscribed. Oh man :)

[@DJSTOEK]

🖤

[@luxiax1836]

It would be nice, if some sort of video, or any sort of graphics were added to the podcast, it would make the content even better(if that its even possible).

[@noahholderman5725]

So I'm really glad Peterson brought up the school shooter thing towards the end of the video and your discussion on pathological altruism because as you were discussing it and mentioning things such the early childhood trauma and the sense of entitlement I was harkened back to a book I read last year entitled "The Anatomy of Motive," by John Douglas. In case you don't know Douglas was quite influential in establishing the FBI's modern behavioral analysis teams by interviewing and investigating a number of serial criminals. Well in the book, published sometime in the 90s I think, so a little out-of-date perhaps, he describes two competing voices inside these individuals' minds, one voice of what is essentially entitlement and another which tells them they are worthless, and that their "acting out," to put things lightly, was often a kind of response to prove themselves to the entitlement after some event, a trigger or stressor, had fed the worthlessness voice. So anyways I found it very interesting when you had described what I've discussed above and then also stated you had found the pathological altruists low in agreeableness because I had sort of thought (and I'm definitely not sufficiently versed in any of this for my conjectures to carry much weight) that the high disagreeableness that stacks up for men because of the peridot was responsible, but unless the pathologically altruistic men where even more disagreeable than the women that wouldn't necessarily seem to be the case then. I'd also like to know if you plan to continue this research and attempt to involve data from incarcerated serial killers or the like and compare it to the general population data, as I would definitely be excited if any steps towards understanding why some individuals develop into serial killers and some don't and why it is almost all men if it is not linked to the disagreeableness trait as I had been thinking. Anyways sorry for the long post, but I'm really bad at packaging these ideas up nicely or containing them.

[@saikrsna1530]

Can I get notes of this episode

[@idleeidolon]

Get peterson to retweet this podcast. Moreover, he seems genuinely interested in the studies you mentioned. Get it publicized asap, especially the ones about grandiose/vulnerable narcissism.

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Thanks, we are expecting Jordan to tweet out this episode within the next few days!

[@idleeidolon]

Consider yourselves in good company, I guess. You'll probably get as many casual citations as Jonathan Haidt during Peterson's interviews now. With the rate controversy follows the guy, and the obligations he has with promoting his book, the next one will likely be soon. This was a real interesting interview to listen to because it's the interviewer that's dropping facts that Peterson is eager to listen to. Usually it's the other way round. The last time I heard an interview of Peterson that was close to something like this was with Gad Saad and that was quite a while ago.

[@MrTudenom]

Vulnerable narcissism? Now that explains a thing or two.

[@ThePhilosophyDoctor]

Thank you. I have shared your video on Facebook. I wonder if you have heard about the idea of ‘high sensitivity individuals ‘? I have a super sense of smell, see more colours than other people and have a very good sense of what people intend by looking at them, specially if they are ‘up to not good ‘. On the big 5 I am 99th percentile on Openness. I am a philosopher ( Philosophy PhD) , and also paint ( sell in an art gallery). Also struggle with anxiety, imagining worst case scenarios for everything. But very good in an emergency - I seem to know what to do and do it quickly.

[@ThePhilosophyDoctor]

Philosophy requires creativity and openness and logic. Both. And you can teach critical thinking and logic, but you cannot teach creativity - I found anyway.

[@brandonfeels]

Enjoyed this a lot like everyone else has commented. Ironically I found it via some conservative channel jacking your content with a BS title, but.. I found it :)

[@pn5721]

31:35. I liked this: Scott Barry Kaufman's idea of testing for Pathological Altruism (testing for this to correct, for people who AREN'T liberal, showing up as such according to their Big 5 Trait results - in this way, openness and lack of conscientiousness doesn't get scaled to liberal political beliefs. Because I am VERY high in openness, low in conscientiousness, but I am conservative)

[@proudatheist2042]

Interesting. Thanks for adding that. If you don't mind me asking, exactly how high in openness were you?

[@INFECTION112]

34:00 HOO BOY my lifestyle just got a knife to its throat

[@BroBurg445]

Wow... i have a pair of co-workers. One is grandiose narcissistic, one is a vulnerable narcissist. Thanks for those terms. Its actually pretty interesting to see them play off of each other. The grandiose narcissist is very good at social interactions. Especially subtle ones like negging and humor in the way words are said. Hese also extremely good at lying, and making everyone precieve him as a winner. He talks about how financially successful he is in areas like gambling and property investment, but its anyone's guess as to how successful he actually is. Especially given he works in the same warehouse position we all do. The vulnerable narcissist has a nack for trying to copy, or project adequacy, but doing it in an extremely transparent way. Thinking back on it now, its actually done in a semi self-aware sorta way. Hese kinda the laughing stock because of this. How much of a pair they are is really telling i think. The grandiose allies himself with a guy who projects inferiority to feel better about himself. The vulnerable is kept in his constant state of victim hood while idolizing the more successful grandiose narcissistic.

[@otbway]

I am a creative man... My dad is a philosopher and I learned how to do critical thinking before I was a teenager... A huge skill because I'm an average academic guy but I'm a genius in the domain of thought... Part of that comes from my bipolar... It seems I have access to a larger cloud of creative thoughts than most people... I am considered immature to some degree by my wife and family... And I can be very mature and wise a bit more than my age... I think part of that has to do with me trying to be like my dad... But critical thinking is great it allows me to analyze my creative thoughts which leads to more thoughts and often to a solution... I can even simulate the solution in my thoughts to see how it would be in real life... If I go with IQ test I'm a C student at best... But if there was an IQ for creativity... I would be considered close to a genius, I can factor sooo many variables in my thoughts and the more unstable my bipolar become the more variables I can add... I've identified 10 level of bipolar that I can operate in, and I would love to have a discussion with a clinical psychologist about it... I think I can provide some insight for study that most people in my situation are unaware... And by the way I am an engineer but I got a low IQ... Got though simply to my cheer determination to succeed and had to study 2 times more to get C grade... Best place for me to work is as an entrepreneur high risk high reward and have the power to apply my creativity and experience to engineer my creativity into reality...

[@stap0510]

More talk about yourself.....

[@tonyburton419]

Explain how and in what way Peterson has contributed in any substantial way to the development of clinical psychology or the therapeutic world. Nothing. Unlike Steve Hayes or Paul Gilbert with ACT and CFT which is now used increasingly worldwide. My, were you not so deferential.

[@mayankmalik8792]

who are the 4 people who disliked!!!

[@michaeltumey7756]

Was there a reference to Political Correctness in this podcast? I must have missed it. I've been tested as genius, and am a very creative person, but find political correctness the dumbest thing I can imagine, or pretty stupid anyway.

[@morthim]

"two factors of political correctness: - radical left = left leaning liberalism" so... basically being obnoxious? did you notice that the first factor is that of a young karen, and the seccond is that of an old karen? "no one thought that was going to happen" except the fairly intelligent people.

[@einarabelc5]

Geez, have you seen how many views Dose of Truth and Conservatism channels have of your POdcast?

[@ThePsychologyPodcast]

Yes, we have noticed. We are new to KZbin so we are appreciative of anyone who helps this new channel get more views.

[@skepto-o-punk8286]

I discovered you via Conservatism.