There is a lot of bickering in our community

[@beatofmyown]

I think the passion behind the disagreement between systems stems from the degree of attachment people have to their personality type as well. The more attached you are to the type, naturally, the more attached you become to the system that provided you with that type. And when we hear that the system is flawed, that brings into question whether you “truly” are that personality type. I think it would help, as you said, if we loosen the rigidity that we have towards systems or understanding of a personality type. I’ve found that a lot of the systems out there actually have more similarities than differences in terms of their interpretation of the 16 types. It’s as if they are all observing the same patterns in people, but end up using different languages to explain those patterns.

[@PowerRedBullTypology]

I'm surprised that Joyce Meng would have a strong disagreement with people, since she tends to be so Fe agreable (but maybe it was more with this Johathan?). Where can I find this discussion exactly?

[@jbodhi15]

I view Joyce as doing “soft promotion” of fellow colleagues in the type community, supporting them, but not necessarily bound to any particular school of thought. Though I could be wrong. She is part of that working community, so she will do her best to be helpful. (At least that is my interpretation. I could always ask her since I often communicate with her.😂) I take on the attitude, if it works for you then “great!” Just don’t push it on me. Let me figure out what works and resonates with me. (I might have a typical INFP attitude, but I am unsure.)

[@catherinedavidson7145]

Nothing to do with the content of the video really, but I've been binge watching Marvel films and the phrase "fusion of horizons" made me imagine the overlapping of the multiverse.....

[@jbodhi15]

I see pedestal behavior with not only systems and school of thought, but with also people we admire or idolize. It’s as if we want to believe in the person or thing so much that we see through a filter that alters clarity and discernment. Tapping into heroes or even gods and goddesses, and the worship of might be a kind of archetypal constellation, which ultimately will bring on a potential kind of possession and emotionality to it, which might give us more tunnel vision. One litmus test that is suggested by Naomi Quenk for knowing when we are In The Grip of the Inferior is “A Loss Of Humor.” I wonder if the same can be used for when being possessed by a system, school of thought, or person we idolize or admire? How can we remain anchored, yet simultaneously open to continuous learning and course adjustments? (Even the types people identify with can sometimes take on a kind of religious fervor and zeal.)

[@jaytm2574]

Some ego? There is a lot of extreme inflexibility out there. People make an investment and dig in, when ALL of this is theoretical and none of it is rigidly defined. More like a spectrum. And Ren, I'm one of those INFJ's who can/does believe in Fi use (and gets skewed test results with Fe and Fi literally neck & neck; yes, I AM still INFJ).

[@PowerRedBullTypology]

I think when it comes ot something like this, the combination of Ni and Ti makes the beta types maybe most ok with thinking differently internally, since these are more so the truth classification types of functions. I think both Ne and Te on the other hand as their opposites are more externally orientated and will automatically ' start a discussion' (which can become heated) about type or talk trash about some other system. I think it's also subjective though if an agreement is seen as a problem or even aggressive or not, because when I see 2 (high) Te types talk to each other, it can seem (needlessly) " aggressive/rude" to me, while to them its normal and no harm done or meant. I myself like to discuss stuff with people that I disagree with cause its fun for me to debate a bit (cause Ne, externally thus ' fight it out , but in a light hearted, emotionally friendly way (because Fe likes social harmony). I think its cause I have half of the' fighting about truths' functions (Ne, but not Te). I think its the NTJs that most heavily position type theory among any other theory as an objective thing where one should fight it out and win or loose in the external world and it will likely matter to them more what you think. I notice that Te types want others to be on the same page in terms on what to believe, so if I disagree with some subject most people think differently about, I sometimes just keep quiet if I do not want a " Te lecture" . Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that basically your perspective makes sense coming from your type and your set of functions, based on my hypothesis which is in no way some objective truth anyone should just believe if you read this (please decide yourself rather). I am myself a bit undecided on shadow types cause they are just so hard to really observe and this the territory becomes really, really speculative in a field that is already so speculative in nature. So whether they exist or not seems a bit of a gamble to bet on.. However, I do notice that I have much shittier Se than most other types that also do not have it. the PoLR concept could greatly explain it. _btw: I'm an intp for those who did not know_

[@jbodhi15]

For me as an Ne aux, I say I like to find “mental springboards” which stimulate new thoughts, ideas, and hypotheses. But because I am making a lot of guesses, I also want to discuss in order to get feedback if I am on the right trail. Regarding Te, I actually had an online discussion with an ISTJ, who just wanted to express their viewpoint, but not necessarily try to convince anyone of their correctness. Me on the other hand with Te-inferior, I can easily get emotionally heated when discussing “fact correctness”, and I find myself wanting to convince and influence people regarding what is correct or incorrect. But I try not to go into what I call “debate mode” because it is so mentally unstable for me and it causes such great disharmony within myself, while at the same time I can become temporarily possessed by that energy. Instead of directly stating facts and my opinions when I think someone is wrong, I tend to resort to asking questions and hinting… which is sometimes also not helpful at all. 😂

[@Violet_Odorata]

​​@@jbodhi15 It's easy to juggle multiple thoughts at the same time but it's hard to stick to one especially if it's sound and sensible. When we find the one that hits the chord, we almost want to proclaim the knowledge and explain away why it makes sense to us. But making sense of it is never really the main priority. It is to make sure that we're in the utmost correct and best position to be in. To be on the 'right side' of history so to speak, yet unsure on what the right side is. Thus in the end, it feeds back to the Fi-Si sense of being.

[@jbodhi15]

@@Violet_Odorata Ah, fascinating. “the utmost correct and best position to be in”. And to be on the right side of history. I have never thought about “correctness” in that way. You also seem to allow for some room for vagueness, while adopting a position as best as you can? (I find that for some things I am very open to vagueness, but other things I can be very black and white. 😂) (As far as conceptual models go, I just want to find what is useful for me personally, helping to navigate relationships with others and with myself. I might pick up bits and pieces of different models, but not necessarily be wedded to one in particular.) I am similar with the hitting the right chord. I often say “that resonates with me.” Though I do want to explore why something resonates with me, or the kinds of needs that are likely desired or needing fulfillment. “What is my reaction pointing to?”

[@Violet_Odorata]

@@jbodhi15 Yeah, I relate to leaving room for some sort of vagueness, when unsure on what position to take. I allow a lot more of a wider berth when I was younger because there's no real pressure on that time yet. I allow myself the freedom at its purest when it comes to curiosity and knowledge on any single topic, and honestly I quite enjoy that a lot. The wanting to be on the right side of history appears a lot more recently, especially when I outgrow my credulous self, and having so many things come to light with real clarity. But I still am a vague-ish person on average. I apologize btw by using the term 'we' in my original reply in case I made you feel slighted by speaking on your behalf and you may find it to be untrue. Or if it's rude in general.

[@jbodhi15]

@@Violet_Odorata The “we” is totally okay. I didn’t even notice that. 😂 I myself do tend to qualify my statements, saying “I speak for myself personally”, I am unsure about other (insert type). Though lately I am too lazy to qualify my statements. lol. I notice a lot of those with Fi do not want to misrepresent other individuals when speaking in generalities. Also, within type there exists a lot of variation and other layers… so there’s that. I don’t find the “we” rude, but I do by default ask, “does that also apply to me?” I am always trying to suss out individual differences, between types, and even within type. It is a habit of mine.

[@grumpyschnauzer]

Interesting perspective. I like to use the word “pivot” when refining my understanding of things with new information. She typed me as an INTJ even though her test and other typists/test typed me as an INFJ. It makes sense for her to consider the 8-function model and propose INFJs’ use of Fi if she might have it as well. She reminds me of other INTJ KZbin characters that are popular… more so than many INFJ creators I see. Maybe this is why I follow your material more than I follow hers. I found some inconsistencies in her understanding of type which deterred me to seek out something else… and here I am. I’m a patron member as well and enjoy your efforts as well as your books!

[@muma6559]

subjective viewpoint is valid. It's also valid when there is an upgrade and it changes. We all learn and grow.

[@jbodhi15]

“Fusion of Horizons”… My teenage brain imagined something lewd. 😂 Whoops! Let us learn from each other while not getting totally lost in each other?

[@jbodhi15]

People often talk about Relationship Boundaries… I have never heard of framing Thought Boundaries… with a concept like “Fusion of Horizons” even though it is something encouraged by some who promote “Individual Thought” (which also tends to need a middle ground or Goldilocks amount to not be too out of touch with the collective).

[@rolandvincze324]

The more variables a system of equations has, the harder it it is to solve it. There are cases in which you need them when you have clear data for solving the problem, but in cases when the best you can do are approximations, like in this case, it's better to try to go with as few variables as possible that's why four function models capture better the essence.

[@Coneman3]

We have to be careful what we mean by the words we use, because it’s very easy for words/sentences to have multiple meanings. Precise language is essential

[@jbodhi15]

Even with precise language people still bring on their own subjective meaning for a multitude of reasons. So I think there are still limits to precision. Also, if the initial assumptions forming an idea are incorrect, a person may be precise and have consistency of thought, but they will not necessarily be accurate.

[@jbodhi15]

I think feedback and elaboration is still needed to try to determine what the other person means.

[@Coneman3]

Yes, initial assumptions or data/facts need to be as accurate as possible and maybe made explicit, to allow clearer debate/understanding.

[@jbodhi15]

@@Coneman3 I am wondering, how do we know when it is time to reexamine our initial assumptions, or reexamine or reevaluate our current models? And is it always possible to be aware of our initial assumptions? Do we need feedback from others to help increase awareness?

[@Coneman3]

@@jbodhi15good questions.

[@Stafford-h]

“Richer language” ❤

[@c.lstrife2829]

"We didn't agree with each other but we had a better understanding." You saying that really hit home for me. I would have debates on some topics that I have strong beliefs in, and whenever a person tries to change those beliefs, I just disagree with them, but it helps me understand where they are coming from. The whole "agree to disagree," has a totally different meaning for me compared to the other person who thinks it means something else.

[@JasmineDaisy111]

So true.

[@nibbleniks2320]

Love it, fusion horizons. Mutual respect.

[@HermesAndroidProject]

At the end of the game, it's about understanding the start.