There's not going to be any more classic Zelda games

[@calebwest2806]

Dear Nintendo: you claim you're all about "player freedom," but I can't mug people in Kakariko village or side with Ganon. Checkmate whippersnappers!

[@Unithrex]

This darker tone and radical game design shift would be ripe for a Majora's Mask style sequal

[@wunderwalze]

No kidding, this needs to happen. Compared to the dynamic action and physics, the NPCs are so dull and non-interactive. Give us an alliance system and social simulations, Nintendo!

[@ravus9935]

​@wunderwalze Unfortunately, it seems like Aonuma is adopting the Miyamoto approach of extremely minimal storytelling because "gameplay is the real story!"

[@beauwalker9820]

​@@ravus9935 I don't know, even the simple Zeldas have had good stories and unexpected twists. I don't want the opposite extreme either where the game is 70% cinematic scenes or QuickTime events like some modern games are. So gameplay is important too, otherwise you might as well just watch a CGI movie.

[@wunderwalze]

@@beauwalker9820 The thing is, NPC interactions could be made somewhat dynamic. So it wouldn’t be a scripted story, but like a little simulation, like the sims or the villagers in animal crossing. And even if they’re completely scripted, there could still be “good and bad” outcomes for their stories like in Majoras Mask.

[@tonysladky8925]

I feel like there's gotta be a middle ground between "There's exactly one solution" and "You have an infinite toolbox to solve or circumvent everything" out there...

[@Guy-cb1oh]

I don't see why there can't be exactly one solution... It worked for other games...

[@Gatchu137]

​@@Guy-cb1oh Because it's uninteresting after a while. Playing Windwaker and Twilight Princess as a kid meant having every solution I came up with shot down, until I stumbled into the arbitrarily correct one. Repeat playthroughs were pretty boring, because you knew the solution already. Obviously you want enough limitations to encourage players to work smarter, not harder, but a multifaceted solution system is largely just more interesting. Solutions to dungeons should (and probably will) be more limiting than solutions to random obstacles out in the world, but we've only seen players messing around in the world so far.

[@SolDizZo]

I am playing a very difficult word game called "Lingo." In many puzzles, I am extremely frustrated that 2 or more words I think of are perfectly viable solutions but arbitrarily incorrect due to the singular answer nature of the game. In some areas or rules, this restriction makes sense... in others, it's absolutely cruel.

[@XanderVJ]

@@Gatchu137 Considering that puzzles with complete freedom for solutions end up just boiling down to solutions that barely require more brain power than hitting a "skip puzzle" prompt, I don't think the trade off is worth it. Not to mention that what you say that repeated playthroughs become boring because of one-solution puzzles makes no goddamn sense whatsoever. The solution you find in your first playthrough is still valid in all the rest, so there isn't any incentive to try new ones, unless you want to record them for content on social media. And if you are gonna tell me "you just lack creativity"... Save it. That's a BS excuse. When people say that, they are applying the idea of creativity in the plastic arts as if it was the same thing as creativity in problem solving, and that's just not true. Creativity in problem solving is for maximizing efficiency by thinking outside the box, not for coming up with solutions that make the process more showy. That's just a waste of time and effort. The thing is, contrary to what people keep repeating laterly, in problem solving, freedom does NOT incentivize creativity. Limitations do. I can't believe that I have to explain this when we have a freaking popular proverb for it: "Necessity is the mother of invention". When you give the player total freedom, necessity goes out of the window. Meaning there is no reason to be inventive (which is another word for "creative"). Thus, what you incentivize instead is to find the path of least resistance. And if you don't tailor the problem, then people end up finding a brain dead solution sooner rather than later. That's why most people just broke 90% of TotK with just two fans and a steering wheel, while inventive contraptions were relegated to freaking TikTok clips.

[@Gatchu137]

@@XanderVJ The dungeons have limitations; using creative architecture and unclimbable walls to limit player options in spite of their many tools. It certainly got me to think more than I did in most of the older dungeons. To say that you have "complete freedom" is incredibly disingenuous. That's a poor-faith argument that people will make, even though YOU YOURSELF were probably forced to engage with the dungeons to the standard degree. Because of the multiple solution approach, most people certainly won't find the easiest or intended solution to many of the puzzles on their first time through. I've played the game with fresh eyes, and have found plenty of puzzles where the solution clicked, and became much easier than how I handled it the first time. The first solution you found might still be valid, but if that solution involves creating some unwieldy structure, using a specific potion or buff, or trying to abuse the physics engine to launch yourself somewhere, there's almost certainly a faster way. There are also plenty of puzzles that involve improvisation using whatever you have on you, so the solution will change each playthrough, depending on what you've done. Stop creating fantasies of what you think I'm gonna say, and then arguing with ghosts. It's ridiculous. Saying people "broke" TotK with the hoverbike is a bit dramatic. The hoverbike is incredibly convenient for traversing the world, but it doesn't do anything that another contraption wouldn't, it's just the cheapest way to make a flying machine. There are other contraptions that are better for water, sand, ground travel, or combat. I used the hoverbike plenty, and still felt like I had a full experience.

[@twilit8162]

I find it ironic that in BotW, the most beloved and creative areas are restricted by design- The Great Plateau, Eventide Island, and The Trial of the Sword.

[@dbclass2969]

There’s a balance involved. I don’t mind being restricted in a dungeon but I want more freedom in the open world.

[@twilit8162]

@@ItIsWhatItIs-53376 that’s actually an interesting point. It’s something of a mix of restricted and unrestricted. On the outside, you can do pretty much anything, but once you get on the inside, the level design becomes a lot more condensed and focused on enemy encounters.

[@8pierrot89]

​@@ItIsWhatItIs-53376 nah

[@revonfyll]

Yeah, even the freedom fighters don't understand that BotW is at its best when it limits you.

[@Jay-zk4bb]

No they aren't

[@aidan_1105]

what new zelda’s lack isn’t exploration, it’s a reason to go back. One of the most fun things in a game is seeing something clearly meant for later, and then once you figure out what you needed, going back.

[@5-Volt]

Absolutely. My favorite thing in traditional Zelda games is remembering all the places I have access to with a new item. This is why Zelda randomizers are so fun & interesting.

[@IzunaSlap]

Metroid games are brilliant at this

[@ihatebilly4675]

@@IzunaSlapyeah no shit

[@MacenW]

​@@ihatebilly4675what the problem kid

[@ihatebilly4675]

@@MacenW clarifying that a series thats known for backtracking is good at is is needless and obvious

[@williamwolfe962]

Tears of the kingdom feels like, if there was a big hedge maze in front of you but the entrance and the exit are side by side, and the reward chest sits at the exit. And then Aonuma says, here you go, solve my puzzles however you want with these fun tools to find the reward! And I'm like what do you mean, the chest is right here. Then I open it and it's an un-upgradeable amiibo armor from the previous game.

[@saithvenomdrone]

That’s pretty accurate to how I feel about new Zelda.

[@Neo2266.]

Elden Ring moment

[@amysteriousviewer3772]

That’s a bit reductive but I definitely agree that the reward economy in TotK is lacking.

[@Preston241]

lol nailed it

[@MarkHogan994]

Your comment is proving once again that TotK haters barely even played the game. Not gonna waste my time nitpicking everything inaccurate about your comment, but just for an example, those amiibo armors are almost all upgradeable in TotK, and you find most of them in the depths, not as rewards for puzzles.

[@tomgriffiths8696]

I take issue with the idea that the only reason to play old games is due to nostalgia. I have just over 120 hours in the 3ds port of the original zelda and that game came out 15 year's before I was born. The old zelda titles are amazing regardless of if you were there when they came out, their puzzles and gameplay great even today.

[@ravus9935]

.......I hope you're talking about Ocarina of Time 3D and not the actual original NES Zelda that's so obtuse you either need to bomb every wall or use a guide to beat it.

[@RhiannaAtriedes]

​@@ravus9935 it's really not. The secret caves people often bash the game for are just that. Secrets. They are not needed to beat the game and simply reward the player with rupees. The bomb doors in dungeons are obvious if you are looking at the map. The most difficult puzzle in the game is maybe the entrance to dungeon 7, but it's super rewarding to solve on your own. The game stands on its own very well, even for its age, and probably captures exploration better than any entry in the series. I'd definitely give it a try without a guide, still one of my favourite zelda games.

[@ncapone87]

​@@ravus9935 I beat it without a guide in the early 90s

[@KipperTheNinja]

Same I played the orical games and Ocarina of Time and Majoras Mask I grew up with Twilight Princess and Wind Waker it’s not nostalgia how could it be when I played those old games as a adult games I never grew up with I loved them I will miss old Zelda

[@ncapone87]

@@KipperTheNinja try using some punctuation, goddamn

[@agahnim0196]

It's all really cool, and i'm really hyped... but i kinda hope they didn't get too crazy with the "Freedom" aspect of it... when i hear them say "Solve puzzles however you want" it scares me, because i really won't feel clever if i can brute force my way through every dungeon by stacking the same crate everywhere and that was one of TotK's biggest problem.

[@Alex_Barbosa]

​@lif6737yea it's cool when you figure out a workaround. The problem with totk is it was wayyyyyy too easy to circumvent everything. 90% of the puzzles can be solved by a really long stick lol

[@Ianmar1]

​@lif6737Yeah, it feels clever when you feel like you have outsmarted the devs. It feels less good when you get the sense that the devs just didn't care enough. If a cheese solution is obvious, the devs just didn't care.

[@agahnim0196]

​@lif6737 I really don't TBH... to me, "breaking the game" feels like using pliers to force open a metal wire puzzle. It's 4th wall breaking and breaks my immersion. I feel way more clever using logic and figure out how things work than brute force everything with the same hover bike.

[@pizzagroom6221]

@lif6737 yeah but you dont feel clever if you can "bypass" the intended design for every puzzle

[@Christopher-md7tf]

Yeah, because it's obviously the developers' fault when players optimize the fun out of the literally infinite toolbox they've been given lol... TOTK is a game for people with creativity and imagination who enjoy experimenting, if you don't have these things then just go back to the games literally every other AAA dev is making, where the game tells you exactly what to do and where every little step of the way

[@ender7278]

This is the equivalent of saying turn-based RPGs are outdated now that real-time combat is possible.

[@mbii7667]

Which I'm pretty sure somebody at Square Enix said recently lol

[@tadasukira]

luckily ATLUS doesn’t gaf

[@SideQuestStories]

When marketing departments pigeonhole art.

[@XanderVJ]

Actually, that was the consensus in America back in the late 2000s, which is the era Yoshi P was referring to last year when he said the term "JRPG" had a negative connotation to them. The amount of people who attacked the genre those days making that same argument was WILD. Of course, it was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

[@Nothing2150]

I mean I haven't seen a turn based final fantasy in 10 ish years

[@xan7292]

"Limitations are not inherently a bad thing." The moment I saw that quote by Aonuma, I knew you were going to go there, and I 100% agree with you. I'm reminded of something Brandon Sanderson, an author whose work I enjoy, once said something along the lines of "Limitations are more interesting than powers". While obviously there's degrees to this and I don't believe it's absolutely true all the time, I definitely think that there's a very strong appeal to having a system (be it a power/magic system in a story or a system for interacting with a game world) that sets very deliberate limitations of what the characters/the player can do, and then has the characters/player overcome obstacles, challenges, or puzzles by using their knowledge of the system in clever and creative ways. For me personally, I do very much appreciate being made to problem solve with the tools I am given, and having too many tools available can indeed make those problems feel less like tricky challenges that make me feel good about solving, and more like chores that I don't really care about completing.

[@milesdp1990]

Upvote for mentioning Sanderson.

[@IamHattman]

@@milesdp1990 Seconded!

[@IamHattman]

Really, all they needed to do to accomplish this in the BotW/TotK games was drop the gliding/flight. Maybe make a more streamlined way to interact with the physics engine. The physics engine is very well defined and has several limitaitons and resulting exploits. It's just too easy to fly around everything.

[@SideQuestStories]

Breath of the Wild at least understood the strengths and weaknesses of freedom with the way it was paced. TotK is a pacing mess, with the Great Sky Island ruining the Great Plateau formula, the Dragon's Tears ruining the Memories formula, the 4+1 temples ruining the 4 temples formula (by having Kakariko progress arbitrarily gated off) and even Sky Towers ruining the Sheikah Tower formula (as you collect too much info at once and it becomes an open world fast travel checklist). Armor balance completely broken by the Great Fairy changes so you either have a load of upgrades or ZERO. The only thing from the previous game it really improved was the combat loop (but arguably broke it at the same time because it's so easy to become OP).

[@TheRealPSKilla502]

@@SideQuestStories And it managed to take BotW's biggest problems, like bad dungeon design, cookie cutter collectibles, and breakable weapons, and make them even worse

[@muffitytuffity5083]

Remember when they said they can’t imagine going back to classic controls after skyward sword?

[@signa8]

I don't remember that, but I'm glad they reneged on that. Skyward Sword is the only Zelda title I actively hated.

[@MattPryze]

@@signa8likewise. Tried it on both consoles, couldn’t bring myself to finish it for whatever reason

[@CrashDunning]

And Skyward Sword sold pretty poorly, likely because of those controls. Whereas the innovation of BOTW that Aonuma is very passionate and proud of is selling dozens of times better than the past games. He literally has no reason to go back this time.

[@signa8]

@@MattPryze I have a whole list of reasons, but in summary, the game wasn't a game, but a theme park ride pretending to be a game. It was constantly paranoid you'd get off the path and somehow have less fun exploring.

[@highdefinition450]

​@@CrashDunningi mean it sold alright lol

[@valentinvas6454]

"This menu looks exactly like Tears of the Kingdom's menu" And that's actually a problem because it's not exactly the best UI. I hated scrolling sideways for minutes. Why not some sub categories or more rows instead of one?

[@aldobonillaquiros7884]

They could learn a lot from Monster Hunter, like having a system to select your favorites and having them easily accesible

[@syizuril877]

@@aldobonillaquiros7884 maybe in echoes, there is favorite tab just like in autobuild system in ToTK

[@disgustedluigi]

Yeah I think a quick select button with a smaller category would work. Like a “blocks” list, a “food” list, a “dynamic” list, and a “monsters” list. Blocks will be anything you can climb, stack, or simply place that are largely stationary, like boxes and beds, food and monsters are obvious, and dynamic will be things the trampoline or water. Even if they could be in separate rows that would make sense for faster navigation.

[@skinnybobz8793]

Pfft bro didn’t learn how to quick select

[@DanielMazahreh]

That’s actually your fault, NOT the game’s fault. I never spent minutes scrolling. You’re just not good.

[@re_4merchant]

As a long tome zelda fan, my first reaction was “is that her only ability?” Then i coped with “well tears of the kingdom had multiple abilities while having a primary one” now i realise they were never gonna get the enjoyment of opening a chest, and finding a claw-shot, or bow, or spinning gear thing. They were fun and exciting new tools and gizmos to find and figure out how to use. Now? Heres a wand at the start of the game. Its one of the reasons i think botw and totk diminished the enjoyment of exploring dungeons, when all you’ll find is money, and random objects that you dont need. Because you already have all you need to beat the dungeon. And the same goes for exploring the world. You never get an item, then think “oh right i should go back to this spot, and use this there” so you never feel the need to go to the same area and a second time, and discover something new.

[@charliec.-lite1466]

In the UI there's a d-pad icon with the trirod assigned to the right button. This implies there will be other items/abilities. How you get them though we don't know yet.

[@re_4merchant]

@@charliec.-lite1466 and most likely, like totk most of those abilities are going to be oriented around the main ability they’ve chosen for this game.

[@fean2712]

I think I realized this subconsciously, but seeing it spelled out like that makes me actually understand one of the things that I feel BotW and TotK are missing. Your objective progression is measured by you having more health(which is neutralized by enemies dealing more damage), dealing more damage(which is neutralized by enemies having more health), more stamina, more armor, and the Hero/Sage abilities. I don't even like the TotK Sage abilities very much, because it feels more like someone else is allowing you to do something rather than something you earned/found. There are so few actual milestone abilities/items in BotW and TotK, compared to almost any classic Zelda game, where finding the bow or the Pegasus Boots means you now have access to so much that you didn't just a few minutes prior. If I wanted to devote dozens of hours just to see "number go up", then I'd play OSRS.

[@samueldrake6138]

I think finding Echoes could simulate that feeling to a greater extent than BotW or TotK. Though Aonuma talking about how many Echoes that are in the game worries me that they may cease to feel special

[@charliec.-lite1466]

​@@samueldrake6138 The height of walls you can climb with the Tri-rod would certainly be dependant on how much charges you have. One charge = one "block" of vertical movement. So theoretically you could make it so that certain parts of the map are just inaccessable until you have enough charges.

[@Anon9729X]

I don’t mind the exploration aspect, all I want are classic dungeons back.

[@oystersoup3434]

So do I. I also want good stories/writing again.

[@shrap3d]

And music on world maps. The Triforce would be nice.

[@ausgod538]

@@oystersoup3434 zelda never had good writing.

[@renren47618]

​@@oystersoup3434It's a 2D game and honestly, 2D Zelda games stories are mostly just there, ALBW had some interesting stuff but that's pretty much it.

[@Wobble2007]

@@ausgod538 0_o OOT was an epic story driven game, at least in the context of the game it is, it feels like you were in a fantasy film, BOTW just didn't have the same impact, you could just go kill Gannon and finish the game in 10 mins.

[@Ronin11111111]

I don't understand how Aonuma can't see that those older games gave a different kind of experience, not a worse one. I think he believes the current games are the logical next step for the series, a betterment of the formula. It is not, it's just different.

[@YoyMcFroy]

And that doesn't mean we had to abandon everything that worked before. It's like if 3d Mario refused to have power ups because "the new formula's better".

[@ausgod538]

@@YoyMcFroy You just dont seem to get that Mario is worked by a complete different team so its not relevant.

[@YoyMcFroy]

@@ausgod538 you don't seem to get analogies my guy

[@wifi961]

You don't seem to understand development cycles clearly.

[@Ronin11111111]

@@wifi961 What does dev cycles have anything to do with this? Please, enlighten me.

[@akamer9430]

I'm 18 years old and botw was the first 3d Zelda I played (except for playing skyward sword at a friend's house for like an hour when I was younger). Despite this my two favorite games in the series are majoras mask and links awakening, both of which I played in the last two years. There is clearly some appeal in that old style of game.

[@Elliemaeggles]

Wow, me too! Though majora’s mask was my first game. I enjoy a game that seems like you’re actually working for something that will be impactful. Sure, TOTK had a good thing you were working for, but it was just way too big.

[@tally.klecko]

I’m a bit older than you but have the same fav zeldas! never seen someone with the same favs in the franchise cool stuff

[@LG555]

I think, Nintendo is always trying to make a game for people who don't have a favorite game in a franchise yet. Like you said, MM and LA are your favorites, so they kinda see you as a satisfied customer. Which also seems to be the reason, they can just throw everything out again after a game. Why make a game like OoT again, if there already is OoT?

[@sukitron5415]

18 yo here too Botw was my first game too, I've played OOT, SS and TOTK now and I gotta say OOT is probably my favourite along with BOTW so there is definitely an appeal to the original formula

[@yamisarkar91]

Cheers 🌟🏆🌟 learning video game history

[@phlegmfiend]

You already know the menu is going to be tiresome after a bit

[@MRFISH-rs6sq]

The echo list dude… they’ll never learn convenience

[@oliverfalco7060]

I just expect you have an option to order it alphabetically 😅

[@Blueissuperior]

It has sorting, last used is the only one shown might not be that bad

[@damianwozniak3946]

So just like tranditional Zelda games, nice. Jokes aside constantly switching items in menus has always been an issue of the series. Even OoT 3D with quick access to items didn't fix the issue completely.

[@h445]

i had the same thought lol, a 1,000 items you have to scroll through. I hope they can change this to a grid type menu you can sort through by category.

[@emptyset1312]

I don't think we'll get another traditional Zelda any time in the near future, but with Nintendo, I don't think anything is ever truly set in stone. While they can be slow to do it, they can change course at times. After the Mario franchise slowly became sterile, and even the 3D games like 3D Land and 3D World fell more in line with the stagnant NSMB formula, things turned around during the Switch era - Odyssey represented a shift back towards a format more like 64 and Sunshine, which even Nintendo openly acknowledged. In the span of just a year, three different Mario RPG series returned, with remakes for SMRPG and TTYD and now the brand new Mario and Luigi game - all of this despite TTYD representing the 'old' vision for Paper Mario which the newer games distanced themselves from, and the fact that Mario and Luigi's studio, AlphaDream, went under. Though they aren't transparent about it, Nintendo does seem to respond to the sentiments of their fanbase Aonuma is a smart man. The increased freedom of the more recent games comes with its own drawbacks, and I don't think Aonuma is incapable of ever seeing those, even if based on some of his comments he might seem blind to them. Rather than being proof of a permanent change in course for the series, I think Echoes of Wisdom is more like an experiment into whether the sort of 'open-concept' design of the newest 3D Zeldas can work in 2D. I think that what works and what doesn't will be made clear. When it comes time to make the next games in the series for the Switch successor, what will those look like? I absolutely expect the next 3D Zelda to take the open-ended approach, and do so in a way that feels fresh, and not just be a Breath of the Wild 3. But how much potential does open-ended sandboxey 2D Zelda have beyond what Echoes of Wisdom can explore? Can that format sustain more games? You can only make so many 'experimental' games before figuring out what works and what doesn't. I think there's a world where we do go back to a classic Zelda... but probably not terribly soon. Maybe not even next gen.

[@dablindscooter1973]

i can see them going back to tradition next gen with 2d zelda

[@hododod246]

Bro I don't understand why it is so difficult to understand. Just because you don't like the game, it doesn't make games bad. Botw sold 30 million. I am repeating. botw sold 30 million. Lots of ps, xbox, pc fanboys who play nothing else but rdr2, god of war fell in love with this series after playing botw. These games expanded the fanbase 5-6 times.

[@danieladdled]

If classic means 35+ years ago, I can see a 2D game revisiting some of that style. If classic means "more OOO/MM/WW/TP" I can't see it happening.

[@zacharymorris6918]

100% agree.

[@raven0116]

dont worry indies covering us, check plucky squire, ocean heart, prodigal

[@Mswordx23]

Aonuma saying why do you want to go back to a type of game where you're more limited or more restricted in the type of game where you're more restricted?" is baffling from a game design standpoint. He's a game designer so he should presumably know that just because you're given more freedom doesn't mean it's more fun. For example having cheat mode on in a game so you can do anything or have unlimited everything or infinite damage gives you more freedom but gets old fast.

[@axyndey]

hes looking at the whole thing extremely naively, im baffled he's even a game designer like there's nuance to sh bro, sometimes people just want a straight-forward answer to things its like saying books should all be choose your own adventure style

[@mattmcduhhh]

The thing I find interesting is that Aonuma believes that freedom will foster more creativity from players. However, online in TotK I saw very few people taking advantage of that freedom and instead most people just did the optimal solution (AKA Hoverbike). Sure there have been people that have done some really creative builds, but this is clearly not the norm from what I saw. Since going back and playing TotK, I have found I am being more creative after setting limits on what I can and can not do, (AKA no paraglider, no hoverbike). I think that limits on what you are able to do is what really fosters creativity.

[@daridon2483]

​​@lif6737 Which basically means maybe the strengths of BotW/TotK would have been more prevalent if the internet wasn't there to give you the "Solve-it-all" options like the hover bike, and instead you have to find them on your own. There would have be more creative solutions found by each one individually, hell some would probably have discovered a variation of the bike by themselves and feel accomplished by that. Alas, times change, and the internet has to be taken into account now. PD: Maybe something similar would have happened if OoT was released now? Like it releases now and you would have content on the internet being things like "20 tips I wish I knew when starting out OoT" or a "All OoT heart piece locations" guide or "All bosses" with the classic spoilery thumbnail. Would the game have felt the same?

[@shrap3d]

I just wanted to play a Zelda game. Not legos. The build aspect of Tears is my least favorite part.

[@果従莞友]

Honestly, there was too much restriction in TotK. BotW is the better game. I should've been able to get the mask that takes me down to the underground factory without having to get the paraglider first. But they chose to put an arbitrary gate there. TotK is still good but there was disappointment in there.

[@Excalibur5k]

@lif6737 i think its not so much the internet as it is gamers naturally optimizing the fun out of the game. the internet only speeds it up. i guess it probably should have been something the developers thought about while making it.

[@XanderVJ]

@@daridon2483 Not having the Internet around wouldn't have made much of a difference in the case of TotK, because the game itself gives you a solution that is just one step over the hoverbike, which is a platform with four fans and a steering wheel. Even leaving aside the fact that, after you see that, the hoverbike solution becomes painfully obvious, the hover platofm barely requires any more effort.

[@Ryker_11]

I dont like Aonuma's insinuation that the freedom of new Zeldas is inherently better than the older, more limited style. Both have their advantages, and I think it's ignorant to say one is just better than the other.

[@notmarz45]

No its called an opinion but also the new ones are all criticly aclaimed and sell great

[@sparxskywriter2589]

@@notmarz45 Most of the Older Zeldas are also critically acclaimed and sold great, what do you mean? Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Link to the Past, The original game, Majora's Mask, and THE Ocarina of Time which is still widely considered one of the best games ever created.

[@cheerfulgestalt3282]

Aonuma's buttmad that Koizumi's Majora's Mask was far more popular than OOT and outperforms the current era of Zelda game. A game that was rushed at the end of the N64 lifespan and wasn't supposed to be amazing.

[@bean_boy5264]

I don’t think he’s implying it’s better, I’ve never gotten that impression from anything he’s said. This is just the design philosophy they’re having fun with for the time being, and once they’re bored with it they’ll move on to something else. I expect they’ll eventually go back to a more traditional design, albeit with modern innovations. I for one am very excited to play as Zelda for once, and to see a 2D title be completely reimagined

[@Vanguard771]

​@@sparxskywriter2589there is a difference between 3-4 million selling great and 20-30 million selling great.

[@webjoeking]

Creativity is born from constraints. A beautiful painting exists because of its canvas. So I hope we will one day get a Zelda/Link with classic dungeons done in new ways.

[@Wobble2007]

This is so 100% true, creativity is born from limitations, Mt. Iwata himself made this clear a long time ago.

[@weatherman1504]

Hmm, a bit convenient for ya to be saying that now, isn't it? That's not what your lot were saying back when people were talking mad smack about Zelda games being linear.

[@serodio_petitseum]

​@@weatherman1504 because every single person on the internet has the same opinion as we all know

[@weatherman1504]

@@serodio_petitseum I'm just saying, it's awfully suspicious that people are suddenly saying that it's a good game now that it's convenient for their purposes of saying "Old > New". I'm not gonna be gaslit into forgetting that people absolutely railed the game back when it first came out for being linear, for being constrained. People talked mad smack on the game for not being like the old games of its time like ALttP. Now when it's convenient for their purposes of having ammo to sh¡t all over currrent new games, they're trying to be all buddy buddy with us fans of the "old" games as if they weren't the exact kinda people lambasting us when those "old" games were new. Well, I'm not having it. I don't forget or forgive easy, especially not for this bandwagoning parlor trick that squirrel boyo and his fandom are trying to pull. Edit: forgot to clarity that I'm talkin about LoZ:TP.

[@smaaron_j_46]

@@weatherman1504 damn, so the Zelda fandom has always had this old head issue? Ngl, the truth does hurt quite a bit. Can’t they just realize that they’re being miserable and ungrateful for once? :(

[@sithcar3435]

My first and favorite zelda game was Twilight Princess. Sure, the openness of the new games is great, but I just really liked the conciseness and quality over quantity of the pre-BotW games.

[@BvLee]

Agreed. Plus, any time I think of Zelda music, TP’s OST is always the first to come to mind like Ordon village’s theme is pretty much home to me

[@ianwilliams2632]

Same for me with Elden Ring vs Souls. I just like things to be concise and crafted. Open world has run its course.

[@56ty_]

Quality in botw and totk is far better than tp though.

[@BvLee]

@@56ty_ I mean, that would depend on what you define as quality. If it's graphics, yeah, but neither of them were really impressive compared to other games from the same time period, so I would argue it doesn't really matter. The same goes for story because I feel that it's subjective whether you like one more than the other. If it's gameplay, then I'd say I prefer the sword skills and tp items over Botw's physics and sheikah slate, but I wouldn't say you were wrong for liking that better.

[@56ty_]

@@BvLee botw has the same attention to detail of the other Zelda games (if not more). Plus they realized a seamless open world. If we’re talking “quality”, botw and totk are by far the best in the series. Graphics, artstyle and music are on a different level as well. Just being honest. Never thought we’d get anything better than Koji kondo but here we are

[@Tooli888]

What makes me mad about Aonuma's claim is that he is basically saying that the old Zelda games had nothing to them and freedom is all that matters. While I like freedom, mixing it with restrictions can be really good, look at areas like eventide, the great pleteau, trial of the sword, they are all highlights of Botw for me and those parts are some of the more "restricted" parts of the game. And they work perfectly with Botw's open style.

[@blakelandry9313]

I mean, look at link between worlds a Zelda game that pretty much most Zelda fans like why it has an semi open world and linear dungeons with linear storytelling it literally does what everyone wants

[@challengerjakku1943]

And this my friends is where I have to jump off the Zelda Fandom and just reside myself to playing my old favourites, and some of the 2D games I've yet to get to. GG Zelda; you had a good run.

[@athorem]

I suppose we can support Zelda-like indies, and more importantly stop buying the new Zelda games. That's about all we can do though.

[@redbaronflyer8392]

My favorite part of BOTW is the trek up to Zora's domain. Barring any exploits (i.e. bomb launching) or going via a very particular path and parasailing, you have to trek through this intentionally designed gauntlet, you can't climb because of the 24/7 rain, and the geography lacks any ways to parasail to skip large sections of it due to it being an upward climb. Only the great plateau and the great sky island ever provided something similar. I get the appeal of the "do it your own way" approach to puzzles, but what's the point when there's always one superior option? (such as rocket shield or ultrahand + recall)

[@maxrn3923]

I love the path to Zoras Domain so much! I agree very much

[@Unithrex]

I agree, but I think you missed that there are some ways to climb up if you are clever enough by using small sections of wall. However, you still can't skip all of it and it does require time and effort to do that I think so I think it balances with the obvious path in the gauntlet.

[@TheRealNintendoKid]

"what's the point?" Because it's FUN.

[@TheRealNintendoKid]

@@maxrn3923 I actually kinda hated that part because all the lightning arrows making you drop your weapons was a pain in the ass, but it was an interesting challenge for sure.

[@maxrn3923]

@@TheRealNintendoKid i can see that but the way itself was just amazing

[@kap1618]

It seems like the Zelda community is suffering from the same rut the Paper Mario community has been suffering through for years. I'm praying for you guys.

[@ausgod538]

Zelda community is a niche of the general public

[@jamespuso1627]

Paper Mario...oof, I loved the first one and I'll probably pick up Thousand Year Door but I'm low-key kinda glad I missed out on it the first time because if I got invested in it then I'd have been so bummed after. Same with Final Fantasy kinda

[@jarde1989]

I don’t want every single upcoming Zelda game to be a sandbox… I still want classic Zelda games too

[@pandakeks8793]

You WILL play gmod Zelda, you WILL spend 70 dollars on reused assets.

[@athorem]

@@pandakeks8793 The only way to win is not to play.

[@SideQuestStories]

@@athorem Or make/buy something else.

[@Vespyr_]

That's unfortunate. You all gave Nintendo too much money on BotW so this is it forever.

[@borkguy]

@@Vespyr_was my exact thought too. What incentive do they have to not keep doing this for 15 years until people finally get sick of it?

[@iconoclast485]

I am sad that I will never get a OOT experience with a Zelda game ever again. The restrictiveness is what made the world that they built so unique from one Zelda to the next. The exploration and finding specific power ups in dungeons that allow you to go back and revisit places you have already been and discover something new in those old places are some of the best parts of the late 90's early 2000 Zelda games IMO.

[@christmasham4312]

Fromsoft does all that now 😊

[@ianwilliams2632]

The golden age of games was about 1996-2003 imo. Nothing beats the atmospheres, design philosophies, clever puzzles/levels, etc., of that time. Dark Souls came close, and echoed the classics nicely. OoT and MM are simply the peak and summit of that era.

[@DeadpoolX9]

The indie scene will come through

[@landonhagan450]

@@ianwilliams2632 I'd expand that window to 2007. '07 was an absolutely cracked year and was probably the peak of traditional game design across the whole industry.

[@FirstLast-yc9lq]

@@landonhagan450 07 and 06 started a lot of bad trends in the gaming industry though. Mass Effect and Uncharted had a detrimental impact on game development

[@myfly4711]

I didn't immediately catch it during the livestream so I wasn't quite sure why you seemed so hesitant. But when I went back and listened to what Aonuma was saying I understood the disappointment. For fans who were hoping a new topdown Zelda would be more traditional than the modern 3D games, it must be quite disheartening to hear him be so insistent to "break Zelda conventions" even in this style. I'm still very excited for Echoes of Wisdom but now I get where the feeling of hopelessness comes from.

[@hist150project5]

Saying "break Zelda conventions" is so ridiculous when they haven't made a game with these conventions in over a decade.

[@wunderwalze]

Tbf tho even if Nintendo created the perfect classic Zelda, that still wouldn't bring back our childhood. If people really want to experience old school magic, the spirit of these games lives on within the people who love them and the new games they influenced. A new Zelda wouldn't be much different, except for the name. Why do people cling onto a brand? If anyone still feels like only Nintendo can make games good again, they're really asking for a company to make their life fun again, which can't be their responsibility.

[@wunderwalze]

Ig complaining about the series is kinda part of being a fan tho, but it shouldn't make people actually sad. That makes me sad

[@calvinbrinenestoris2357]

​@wunderwalze I just think it would be incredibly fun to see how they would handle a classic-style game with their modern design philosophies.

[@KipperTheNinja]

After the hype wore off I was pretty disappointed to I’m autistic and Traditional Zelda is what I hyper focus on I love Zelda and the new games don’t hit the same for me I was hoping for a new 2D Zelda after hearing his words again…it hurts I hope we get a more traditional Zelda game one day!!!

[@Olimario34_]

Aonuma going through the biggest "linear = bad" brainrot

[@queen-of-trash]

Or maybe that’s just not what they wanna make? Like… the team can decide going in a new direction without thinking the old direction was bad.

[@Olimario34_]

@@queen-of-trash except he explicitly said the old direction was bad?

[@radicalizedonline7109]

@@Olimario34_- Then he’s washed, and needs to be put out to pasture.

[@queen-of-trash]

@@Olimario34_he said (essentially) “modernity allows for more open games and we want to fully embrace that”. I think creatives should make whatever they want.

[@Unf0rget]

@@queen-of-trash You're reading it how you want to. He outright states he cannot see why someone would want a game with less freedom. In the context that the last two zelda game's worst design choices come from a blind adherence to maximum freedom, when just a pinch of restriction would help so much for puzzles, encounters, and knowing when players are ready for more complex anything, this is terrible. Restrictions are fundamental to building the rules of a setting. People might picture this means not having certain powers but really it means something like elden ring where you start in the starting zone and can then chose which difficulty of zone you want to go to next. Without restrictions everywhere is the world 1 so nowhere is world 2-8 because nintendo just refuses to make any corner of the map more difficult because it would restrict the player freedom to wander as they please with escalating obstacles they would have to overcome. The story could be still largely optional but it would take asking players to find specific ways to overocme the story beats they're skipping. A restriction that means not fighting ganon immediately. I can go on in more depth but I think my point is clear. There are work arounds where a more familiar story and challenge structure could be designed to have multiple avenues to approach. Instead all of that is trashed for maximum freedom. The lead developer outright stating he does not see any world where freedom being restrained is fun is worrying, but in the context of how TotK made the exact same mistakes of botw it's a clarifying quote. One that affirms what playing the game already convinced me of; that my time as a zelda fan is diminished until Aonuma gets a reality check or someone else takes the wheel.

[@halkon4412]

There’s a difference between “puzzles have multiple solutions” and “puzzles are so breakable that the same solution works for almost every puzzle in the game”. It should be obvious how the latter discourages creativity and experimentation, the exact things they were trying to encourage in the new games.

[@mattvaughn8525]

Nintendo is overthinking Zelda soooooo bad. People don't even care about that shit. If they wanted to play an open world game they'd go play elden ring. Classic Zelda formula even with one solution to problems is why people love it to begin with. Zelda future looks like a cookie cutter open world just like the rest of them.

[@cinnamonnoir2487]

To be fair, it's difficult to come up with mechanics that live up to the former without bleeding over into the latter at some point. I wish Nintendo hadn't dabbled in "solve puzzles your own way" at all, but given that they chose this path I think they did a decent job. I can see why other people think this is fun, I just don't like it myself.

[@RavensbladeDX]

100% agree with Aonuma regarding Zelda. She's far more interesting if playing as her is it's own unique experience. Excited to play this when it comes out.

[@silvereyes242]

Agreed! If she played exactly like Link, there would be no point in playing as her at all. It would be like simply palette swapping him with a female model otherwise.

[@Skywreckdemon]

This game definitely looks like it's gonna be good, I'm just disappointed we'll never have anything like Twilight Princess ever again.

[@silvereyes242]

@@Skywreckdemon same, that was my favourite Zelda game.

[@AntiRiku]

​@@silvereyes242 Same. TP is such a gem.

[@Gamer1288]

Zelda is a spellcaster so she should play like one.

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

Time to suffocate on more freedom, I guess. At this point Minecraft should just do a Zelda collab. “Ganon has destroyed Hyrule and it’s up to you to rebuild it!”

[@radiorah768]

😂😂

[@Kooptj]

Man I have no doubts that it will happen sooner or later

[@EnderNecro]

Restriction also implies focus.

[@MarkHogan994]

"Focus" has become the most overused buzzword in the Zelda community.

[@maliciousbugman]

@@MarkHogan994 no, "linear" is.

[@highdefinition450]

neither of those are buzzwords lol, they're the main points of contention between the two camps, of course people are going to talk about them lmao

[@wifi961]

I'm sorry you have to think a little.

[@Flavio-bn7ne]

​@@wifi961Implying you didn't have to think about how go tackle a problem in the pre botw zelda games, which is not true

[@johnleonard9102]

It's frustrating how Zelda has become a turn-based combat game with all of the menus you have to sort through while in the middle of a fight.

[@Alam_Gutz]

I love turn based combat RPGs I'm curently having a blast with Octopath Traveler, but that kind of thing is NOT what I'm looking for when I start a Zelda game, the infinite scrolling in TOTK is the same iron boots bullshit that was universaly hated in the original Ocarina of Time.

[@Ryanmiller70]

I love reading the comments and counting every time some new era Zelda fan brings up sales as if that translates to quality. I guess Taylor Swift is the best musician alive to these people also given how crazy well her music and concerts sell.

[@pitshoster401]

The funniest part about that stupid sales argument is that BotW ironically would have sold poorly if it stayed a Wii U exclusive lmao

[@Kujaguy]

A game is defined by its rules and boundaries.

[@SideQuestStories]

Yep literally the difference between a game and a toy.

[@datnastysalad5616]

When you can solve a puzzle on your first attempt because nearly any solution works, it's not a puzzle, but the complete lack of one.

[@Breeze926]

My biggest problem with Tears of the Kingdom was not that the puzzles had many solutions, but that the same solutions worked for multiple puzzles. This game also seems to have more limits with the number of Echoes, being 2D, having no glider, being unable to climb, etc. As long as this game doesn't have an equivalent to Rocket Shields or the Ultrahand, Recall, Ascend combo I hope it can be that perfect middleground between old and new Zelda, offering tight puzzles that don't ask to be solved in one specific way. I was skeptical of this game as soon as I saw the main ability and the Tears of the Kingdom quick menu. I was like "Oh no not Autobuild and the Fuse menu again", but the more I think about it the more I think I will enjoy this game.

[@spadezap9728]

Am I the only one getting tired of them “wanting to break conventions” all the time now. There are some conventions we can keep

[@SideQuestStories]

It's like the "subverted expectations" of cinema. Unless you're doing it for a good reason, don't do it.

[@meloelebi1996]

Anouma sounds almost exactly like Miyamoto's old reasoning for not understanding why people like RPG's when he thought they were so restrictive.

[@RonnyJoel03]

It sucks to see that aonuma seemingly doesn't recognize the strengths of the more limiting design of the older games. Maybe devs themselves felt limited while making those games either by hardware or deadlines. I think the best we could hope for is that they somehow rediscover those strengths eventually over a very period of time

[@cheke_hs]

The devs were indeed limited by the technology of their time, but also by their inability to question the status quo. Ocarina set the standard for the classic 3D formula, yet they _already_ couldn’t make that game more open because jumping to 3D meant they couldn’t keep the openness they would’ve wanted due to technical limitations. From there, even simple things such as Link not being able to jump were literally never put into question. You can only guess how many more things were left untouched because they didn’t feel like changing things up. But then they took a huge risk with BOTW and it paid off several times over when compared to any other Zelda, 3D or not. Breaking conventions is and seemingly will be the norm now because that’s what the majority wants, and ultimately, they’re _good_ games.

[@SideQuestStories]

They've forgotten how to design puzzles.

[@samueltitone5683]

BIG LINK BETWEEN WORLDS! THAT’S ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO MAKE ME HAPPY AONUMA! It’s really weird how the Zelda team refuses to learn from Elden Ring’s success. The legacy dungeons are what made that game, and from what I’ve heard Shadows of the Erdtree is going the extra mile to make the catacombs more unique and enjoyable to explore.

[@weatherman1504]

Hmm, awfully convenient. I remember people talking shiz about that game back when it came out...

[@calvinbrinenestoris2357]

Keep in mind that all games coming out around now have been in development since well before Elden Ring released.

[@Booksds]

I’d argue Link Between Worlds also isn’t a classic Zelda game either thanks to the item rental system

[@calvinbrinenestoris2357]

@Booksds it's the closest we've gotten in the last 2 generations. Still a VERY good game (my personal Zelda top 3), but it'd still be really nice to see a Zelda game that can do the dungeons/any-order while still having the key items be found through exploration and progression instead of in a shop like in ALBW or mostly not using key items at all like in BOTW/TOTK. Also the fact that ALBW rips SO much from ALTTP creatively speaking along with the whole map doesn't help. Once again I love ALBW, but a new 2d Zelda game without these flaws would be ideal.

[@SideQuestStories]

ALBW isn't perfect, the way it handles dungeon items means that puzzle ideas can't progress. Same issue as BotW/TotK shrines.

[@boiwifeyasmr4U]

God i hope they do the dungeon specific echo thing they you need. I want a zelda game with the openess of botw with the complex dungeon design of older games

[@RedBeard-qw4hc]

I see a lot of people putting Botw and Totk in the same bag. Or saying that Totk fixed what Botw did wrong. But the thing is, I still had an adventure in Botw because I couldn't just zonai-fly into a set location. It still had limitations. Whereas Totk tells you to go wherever whenever and so it feels more like I doing Unisoft open world check-list minus the markers on the map.

[@GodUsopp6620]

You control what buttons you press

[@capngeeoff]

Hmm if you used an infinite items exploit to achieve these results, then it was cheating

[@highdefinition450]

​​@@GodUsopp6620you can't blame people for interacting with the game the way the game intended them to lol. they encourage you to use zonai devices and skydive all the time, and they populated the world with nothing that makes it worth walking instead of taking the faster route. i don't think it's fair to expect people to play with self-imposed challenges and rules just to make it fun tbh lol it would be kinda like telling people who want pokemon games to be a little harder to just do a nuzlocke or something. like yeah, it's an option, but that doesn't really solve the overall problem lmao. it's a fair criticism of the game design

[@Marikus_Eternal]

I feel like the Wind Temple quest was more of an adventure than the entirety of BotW

[@amandaslough125]

​@@Marikus_Eternalmaybe by visual spectacle. It's a lack luster dungeon and a poorly written story arc.

[@marbsphere]

From a game design perspective, the limitless freedom new Zelda offers is definitely more interesting compared to single solution puzzles which have already been done in many other games. So I can see why Aonuma doesn't see the value in the old Zelda formula, but personally, I just don't find a puzzle which can be solved in any way to be as engaging. It always feels like I'm breaking the game which isn't as satisfying as finding the intended solution. It was really cool in BOTW because we had never seen that kind of puzzle before, but I already felt bored of the concept while playing TOTK. I'm gonna be a bit disappointed if this is the only style of puzzle we get in future Zelda games.

[@thesnatcher3616]

Not really related, but I always found it odd that there was this huge divide between Zelda fans who preferred the og classical design of single solution puzzles with a steady consistent progression through the world and the newer fans who are into the more open air elements where they can bend the physics engine as they so please to make their own solutions. Cause that divide is practically nonexistant in the mario fandom. Mario 64 was all about the freedom to get stars in whatever way you wanted(with skipping them being an option), with a movement system so versatile and exiciting, that it enthralls speedrunners to this very day, deliberately being very distinct from Super Mario World. Maybe it's because 3d mario games did a better job at bridging the gap(oftentimes having both open exploration collecathon segments, as well as straight up platforming bonus rooms and challenges?) than the modern zelda titles? I'm just saying that you won't really see the mario fanbase clamoring for the return of the bit by bit classical platforming style of his nes, snes, and ds days the same way Zelda fans do for their older titles. The most controversial part of the mario fandom was just how they keep reusing the same enemies, which is a complaint that is also nonexistant in the zelda fandom funnily enough. I just find the whole situation involving the two fanbases really interesting lol. Love both franchises btw. Just giving food for though.

[@Lmmmn]

That’s because there wasn’t a divide. 3d Zelda’s didn’t replace 2d, we still got them. It would be like if the new 3ds 3d games replaced the Mario 64 style 3d games. I don’t dislike the new Zelda games but it shouldn’t be suprising if some people like theme park style games over sandbox style games.

[@porchugawhale9938]

I'm not sure how much merit my response provides, but I wanted to analogize this design perspective to the souls-like boss design, even elden-like boss design that we have seen emerge in fromsoft's games. Consider a souls boss as a puzzle synthesized from reaction time, observation, spatial awareness, and rhythm. Most every attack that fromsoft designs can be 100% of the time perfectly dodged with the B-button dodge roll (one exception being elden beast's blasted elden stars attack). Many people consider it an art and an achievement to defeat a boss only within the self-imposed limitations of the on-demand i-frames granted by the roll, simply because the artists working at fromsoft have specifically paved this rocky road for the pilgrims looking to traverse it. And yet, we see in Elden Ring the freedom to opt-out of this experience with mage builds, spells, ashes of war, buffs, and so on, because the developers realize that this experience is not for everyone and therefore afford the player the opportunity to grow wings and fly outside the box with infinite mp and massive laser beams. For many players that is the joy, the same joy that those experience who indulge in the multitude solutions of the TOTK puzzles. Similarly, I posit that the same dichotomy of limitation and freedom exists for these newer zelda games, albeit in a more nebulous form. We see in so many cases the nudging toward the correct solution in a TOTK shrine where you build a vehicle with specific qualities to traverse some obstacle, (I am immediately reminded of one where link must make a paddleboat, attaching big wooden boards to wheels to provide ample forward thrust to travel against a stream). The possibility always exists though to make a flying machine and skip everything; basically, you only need to engage in the puzzles if you want to. I imagine the same will occur in this echoes of wisdom game, where there will always be the most 'intended' solution but the player can always choose to implement their solve-all solution and skip the trouble. Basically, limited puzzle design for zelda games is not dead yet, is my thinking. Just wanted to connect these two ideas and if it inspires someone to chip in with their two cents then all the better for them.

[@thesnatcher3616]

​@@porchugawhale9938 To be fair, even a lot of those "free" mage players still need to put in a little bit of work to get that super easy experience. Especially since they'll be way more fragile than the traditional strength build. And that "flying wizard laser" option is only avaliable if you spec into it and make a build around it(not to mention I heard it doesn't even work on certain boss fights that are either faster or have magic resistance). It's not like every Elden Ring/Souls player will have access to it.

[@TheBriguy1998]

​@@porchugawhale9938 I think the difference between the examples in you comparison, and why From's implementation of this dichotomy is better, is that when facing certain obstancles in "Souls" games, there are factors that FORCE you to interact with them, at least to some degree. Even a spellcaster build will often find themself in scenerios where they can't help but engage with the core game systems, so you don't end up feeling like you're "cheating" or "skipping" through the fun parts of the game when you approach things differently. In TotK, many puzzles can be entirely circumvented by the the same auto-built flying skooter, and it feels bad to realize that the simplest and most optimal solution to a problem is to not really engage with it an use the same exact tactic that you've already used a bazillion times by now.

[@michaelrobinson4266]

A puzzle is not a puzzle without limitations. If there is no problem to solve or the solution is always the same, there is nothing to be puzzled about (cutting a tree vs gliding). ToTK and BoTW gave you the tools and limitations early and used the world to allow you to recontextualize your limitations, but I think what is missed in this approach is the act of receiving a new item/ability that allows the world to be reframed through a decrease in limitations (a la animal well).

[@DeadpoolX9]

Was a hookshot really so much to ask for?????

[@landonhagan450]

@@DeadpoolX9 TotK was MADE for a hook/clawshot. The game feels genuinely incomplete without it.

[@highdefinition450]

​@@landonhagan450crazy that they didn't add it. makes so much sense with the sky islands lol

[@Silas_MN]

if every solution to a puzzle is viable, then there’s no reason to ever try anything differently

[@michaelrobinson4266]

@@Silas_MN For sure. I found during ToTK that I would reuse many of my creations to solve different problems. In some ways the discovery of a well crafted puzzle disappears. One positive thing about metering out tools/abilities throughout a game is that you tailor that sense of discovery and make more complex puzzles that use the interesting restrictions of the items/abilities to provide novel and thoughtful solutions. In this regard I think the open world aspects of the Zelda franchise are at odds with the puzzle of nature of their worlds.

[@marcus7252]

This video and the comment section made me realize, that I am in fact not alone in missing the old style of Zelda. I was really hoping for the next grezzo zelda to be a classic zelda. It's okay if mainline zelda goes wherever it is currently heading, but I kinda hoped eiji would allow the classic zelda style to stil exist and maybe let grezzo come up with a new game in that formular. Echoes of Wisdom looks amazing, no doubt, it's just sad to think that an era is really finally over.

[@dmajorvgm8735]

My immediate reaction was that the echo ability would end up being a more interesting/creative implementation of the metroidvania like world exploration that traditionally comes with gaining new items in top down Zelda games. I still suspect there will be traditional dungeons and items, so I’m not too worried just yet. If the dungeons are TotK tier I’ll be baffled. A pipe dream I have is that they implement some Tunic like sequence breaking via very unobvious creative use of echoes. I definitely share your scepticism though, the “creative” approach to puzzle design and exploration with no limitations is certainly not my preference, although I do think the non-linearity is the biggest thing that kills TotK’s dungeons. You just need a sense of progression in dungeons which pure non-linearity just doesn’t provide

[@SideQuestStories]

But it won't if Tri is upgraded in a freeform way. We see in the trailer that there are multiple solutions to the same puzzles.

[@rustybiscuit398]

I’m not sure how I feel about the quote from Aonuma. As someone who was very late to the Zelda franchise going back and playing the older games has been extremely fun. And it shows what the freedom of BOTW and TOTK takes away to achieve their design. But also I can empathize with Aonuma for how long they’ve worked on the franchise feeling Burt out by the limitations. Also with the ultimate freedom approach they can all but guarantee everyone has a unique experience in some way. It sounds very enticing and easier in a way than adding a unique power or system to build a game and dungeons around. Regardless the game looks fun and great video!

[@landonhagan450]

I think the biggest issue with the quote is the mischaracterization of critics. It's both condescending and incorrect in a way that says a lot about his mindset. To come to that conclusion he must've never actually listened to any of the critics, just assuming they have nothing of value to say, which doesn't bode well for the future.

[@Wolfgang_von_Caelid]

My issue is with something that the KZbinr DJ Peach Cobbler mentioned in his Elden Ring video; where do you go after going the open world route? I have no doubt that Miyazaki is totally cool with reducing the scale of his future projects, as well as his fans. But a massive series/company like Zelda/Nintendo? I don't know, man. Imagine if God of War went back to the old style. It's inconceivable, they would *never* do it. I think it's similar with Nintendo, they saw the insane sales of the last couple open world Zelda games and are going to want to *increase* the scale, not decrease; why would we "downgrade" our games? Think of the sales, they'll plummet! That's the logic, and I hate it.

[@Z50nemesis]

What you have to take into account is that people have been shitting on Nintendo for not innovating zelda for at least 15 years . Basically all 3d zeldas were criticized for being just another ocarina of time. I dont agree with that , but that was the popular opinion

[@highdefinition450]

honestly if he doesn't like making zelda games anymore, he should just retire or go make the kinds of games he wants elsewhere. with the influence i assume he has at nintendo, he could probably get a new ip approved. probably easier said than done but still, it kinda sucks that he's transforming the series into something else because he's bored with it. i'm sure a ton of other capable people would love to design a zelda game lol

[@Sephirothkingdom782]

@@Wolfgang_von_CaelidI think atleast in elden ring you can still just structure the game to only do the main quest and it’ll still feel satisfying. I don’t feel that way with totk/botw.

[@hadesobsidian5231]

This sounds like what happens to people when they get old. They go from liking excitement, danger, arduous challenges, to staying at home cooking playing sudoku and fishing. And coming to the "amazing" realization that, that is what life is _really_ about. If only people would realize it. And so we have Zelda games now once that were about a young man confronting evil, danger and excitement. Traversing a dark world intermixed with hope and adventure and magic, out to not only save your love, but also your land, and the friends you make as well during your long journey to stop a great evil power. And on the way, play some interesting games as a pallet cleanser and break. To repetitive feng shui chinese temple 10¢ arcade mini games and K'nex hobby lobby construction set challenges with a magic ipad and mini games on top of time wasting minigames and cooking and weapons that break but you can "whimsically" make one out of a frozen fish and a snow pea. Cause that's what a real fun game is right :D Oooh boy, _giddy old man noises_ Not all that nostalgic hooey. Who wants to play bobble head fisher price Hello Zeldakitty Island Adventure?! :D And its like...no. Dude. Tf.

[@Tigerbro6]

its not just nostalgia lol I just want good dungeons again

[@notmarz45]

Zeldas not about dungeons anymore old man

[@sparxskywriter2589]

@@notmarz45 Okay, this one is just obvious bait

[@56ty_]

It is only nostalgia lol try to tell me that most past dungeons are better than Totk’s with a straight face

[@highdefinition450]

​@notmarz45 it's about collecting mushrooms and eating wood, thank you mr. aonuma very cool

[@56ty_]

@@highdefinition450 yeah tell me cutting grass to find hearts (??) was better lol

[@aetherial87]

Mean things to each other

[@bananatrimmer1204]

I hate you

[@finiraelkhami8251]

Your mean comment caused me to reply

[@nlald]

@@finiraelkhami8251Pretty average tbh

[@futuza]

@@nlald mid at best

[@Scharfster]

This is feeling oddly reminiscent of the Miyamoto having the Mario games be no longer creative or interesting. It's almost as if the older you get, the more jaded and tunnel-visioned you become.

[@maliciousbugman]

To be fair there was also the solid decade or so Aonuma kept pushing the Wind Waker artstyle constantly. Seven freakin' games had that art style, each (but one) starring different Links that look 100% identical to each other. He basically tried to make Wind Waker's style the New Super Mario Bros of Zelda, if that makes sense.

[@JoJoboiWav]

@@maliciousbugman And he was right. Now, Toon Link was replaced by that lego ahh type of sh!t, and it's infinitely worse and it's extremely inexpressive and way too childish whereas Toon Link's art direction was the perfect compromise between stylization action and seriousness, without the edginess of the overly realistic Zelda games. I still can't believe they killed him with Triforce Heroes then never touched him again since then.

[@Midnitethorn]

Oot, MM, WW, and TP will always be my favorites. The worlds, characters, dungeons, and stories are unmatched. I wanted to love BoTW and ToTK just as much, they had a lot of promise, but fell short on all these things.

[@DeadpoolX9]

It feels like the fucking Sonic Team problem. TotK and BotW were like on the CUSP of absolute greatness. All they needed was a through line (more involved character quests (we already like these characters we just want more of them), more involved dungeons (actual sprawling multi leveled dungeons with each room having a puzzle and those puzzles tying into bigger puzzles in a unifed theme), more permanent upgrades from the dungeon (fuck the champions abilitys and fuck the sage abilities I want a hookshot, just any more permanent items)) That's all it would have taken to satisfy everyone and leave a mark on the generation but they're like "nah lets do something else" Hell they're not even gonna release DLC for TotK like they did with BotW.

[@Midnitethorn]

@DeadpoolX9 agree with all of this. It's like they were so close but just couldn't reach the finish line.

[@highdefinition450]

​@@DeadpoolX9it's crazy to me how there was no hookshot in totk lol. traveling from one island to another, hitching a ride on like a bird or something, idk, it could have made traversal in the sky so much cooler i think lmao

[@merleetomlin6218]

It's been nearly two decades since TP and with every new installment to the Zelda franchise it feels like they are getting farther and farther from the classic formula. Ya know, the one everyone loved. I don't necessarily mind that these new games exist, but it would be nicer if we could also get one closer to Zelda's roots to appease the "long-time fans."

[@merleetomlin6218]

@@highdefinition450 I remembered hearing there would be sky islands and thought it would be a perfect opportunity to introduce Loftwings as a sky mount to the newer titles. Then I saw the trailer introduced mechanisms... I was severely disappointed...

[@jakesmith9150]

I'm sure at some point the series will circle back- maybe if someone else picks up the mantle, or even after that director. Some things tend to come back around. I do like the new stuff too- but I agree that I would love to see modern iterations of classic Zelda games

[@Unf0rget]

Never mind the flawed open world and puzzles, the fundamental misunderstanding of older zelda title's appeals is disheartening. Aonuma doesn't seem to understand that appeals are flexible and that his newer titles are different games down to their core whcih appeal to different interests. Interests that have a lot of overlap with many zelda fans, but not nearly all zelda fans. And no subgenre sweeps people away into what they think they have rather than what they've got like open world games do. The sting of botw was finally rendered too real when totk made the same mistakes. It seems no matter what, for every new wonderful ip (splatoon) an old fond ip must change for the worse.

[@KevZ7.]

Zelda didn't changed for the worse

[@Unf0rget]

@@KevZ7. That really depends on what you value within the games. Considering that what I value is being put in, just poorly, is why I say they're worse. I'm sure you have plenty of fun with the parts of the game I don't care for.

[@RH1812]

Musicians also limit instruments they use to challenge themselves. As you said, the challenge of limited options can be even more creative in its own right

[@highdefinition450]

yea the new games are only hard because the monsters hit hard. not once was i ever stumped about what to do in a shrine or a dungeon lmao, i could always just fly a rocket straight to the end. i liked having to think critically, idk lol

[@b3llydrum]

This is a dumb analogy and doesn't work in this scenario. You straight up are arguing you can be more creative and expressive in solutions to problems in Link's Awakening than you can in Echoes of Wisdom. Lol. Lmao, even

[@amandaslough125]

​@@b3llydrumbut it's true. How soon after release do you think the internet will find the most optimal bed set up or whatever to take out most enemies and puzzles on the map? It's not like older games where your sword was your tried and true method of attack, but you were rewarded in combat for using various weapons to kill enemies faster. You had to think to try it. The new style everything works. And anything more creative usually involves a lot of extra steps of tedium before being executable.

[@DanielGarcia-rx3kt]

Hell, look at OoT. The tunes you play with the ocarina revolved around FIVE NOTES and the composer used them to write music. And they're legendary. Creativity through restrictions can be AMAZING.

[@Nastara]

But it doesn’t apply to old zelda because there is only one way to do things. That’s fine but it’s a bad arguement for wanting one solution zelda back

[@suicunesolsan]

My main issue with BotW is the way all your tools were given to you right away. My interest in dungeons was greatly reduced when I knew I wouldn't obtain any new tools or fight unique enemies in any of the dungeons (except for the dungeon bosses). Instead, rewards like breakable weapons, food, and rupees were the treasures, none of which had any lasting impact. Basically, dungeons were an afterthought as their primary purpose (to obtain items that would open new areas) was no longer there! Furthermore, Heart Pieces were moved into shrines. Which meant you always knew exactly what would you get at the end of a shrine. And you also knew that if a sidequest did not involve a shrine, it was probably not worth your time. This game, however, may or may not be indicative of the series future. Primarily because this game stars Zelda herself, which means it was always going to be and should play differently.

[@Gatchu137]

TotK literally gave dungeon-themed powers that were required to solve the puzzles, and then opened the scope of your options in the rest of the game. It's not like they haven't already improved from BotW. The only difference between TotK dungeons and those from older games was that the new abilities were tied to NPC allies, rather than items, but the dungeon structure was there.

[@samuelstephens6904]

Obtaining items was never the “primary purpose” of dungeons.

[@Excalibur5k]

@@Gatchu137 i dont think this is entirely accurate. the sage abilities were kind of redundant, its possible to accomplish almost all the same things they do without using them. tulin and yunobo had some uses, while sidon and riju did not. you only really needed them for the terminals. with classic dungeon items, they allowed you to do things you couldnt do before, which is where most of their value came from. I dont expect a "botw-style" dungeon item to be exactly like this, but i would hope tools you find in future dungeons do a lot more than "kind of stronger lightning arrow with a cooldown."

[@Gatchu137]

​@@Excalibur5k I'd say a majority of old dungeon items became useless outside of their dungeon. The gear, ball and chain, gale boomerang, and dominion rod from Twilight Princess were incredibly niche. I don't remember the digging claws or gust bellows from SS having much alternative use either. I don't even really remember any dungeon items from Wind Waker. But usually the hookshot is the only useful one, unless a dungeon gives you the bow or something. Sidon and Riju had uses for the terminals, but they stayed relevant as combat options afterwards, giving a shield/ranged slashes and stronger arrows.

[@Excalibur5k]

@@Gatchu137 this was an problem on an item to item basis in previous games, but its worse in totk. Sidon and riju are particularly horrible in battles because you have to chase them down to use their abilities. You can use splash fruit to get the water buff for zora weapons, and rujis lightning is just a clunkier version of bomb or lightning arrows. Even more useless items in past game unlocked *something* in the overworld, and even if it wasnt much, they still made for interesting dungeon gimmicks rather than items. Like yea the dominon rod and the spinner kinda suck, but they were cool in their respective dungeons. I cant say the same for sidon and riju.

[@MrPoPo1991]

I like areas of the map being restricted until you unlock an item for it in a dungeon. I remember the excitement I got at finally getting the long shot in OOT after being told about it in school. I could finally reach those chests and climb the windmill

[@skullkid7989]

I wish it had the link between worlds art style but I’m fine with this

[@basklisk]

me toooo they really should bring that style back

[@highdefinition450]

eh i like this one too lol it's pretty unique

[@bullymaguire9987]

​​@@highdefinition450It's cute, but pretty lifeless because it doesn't allow for much facial expression.

[@lilylollielegs34]

Yeah I love the link between worlds art style. Actually it’s just overall one of my favourite Zelda games.

[@JoJoboiWav]

@@basklisk They should even make a new Zelda game replicating exactly the art style of ALBW's artworks, not only the game itself. It's definitely possible nowadays and it would be INSANE

[@Valcuda]

A while ago, I finally beat Twilight Princess, which I had growing up, but was an idiot and treated it like a sandbox. I absolutely loved it, way more than I like Breath of the Wild! It's linear, but that lets it tell story which I feel actively involved in! I watch as characters grow thanks to the events. And every dungeon is so exciting! Cause you get a new toy to play with and to learn, then the boss challenges your skill with it! It's linear, so it limits what I can do, but it gives the developer more control to do what THEY want to do! BotW just feels empty, I don't feel like I'm participating much in the story, all the important crud happens prior to the game! And dungeons feel like chores, I only need to complete them to get something to give me more health! They dont even LOOK unique! They're all just the same! It's quantity over quality!

[@sengan2475]

I highly recommend the twilight princess manga

[@CZsWorld]

Keep in mind that BotW / TotK is a return to the freedom of the original. It IS the old Zelda. Things will cycle around again at some point.

[@Whispernyan]

Well have fun when we enter the return to Zelda 2 type gameplay.

[@Ianmar1]

​@@WhispernyanI loved Hollow Knight, an AoL remake really has potential.

[@Ianmar1]

Maybe replay the original LoZ. It was not a trivial thing to tackle the dungeons very far out of order. One needed to learn enemy movement patterns and know the overworld secrets including dungeon locations. BotW and TotK have neither the difficulty gating nor the item gating nor the cryptic hints of the original.

[@athorem]

This lie needs to stop. Where are the keys and locked doors in the new Zelda dungeons? Where is the progression gating?

[@pitshoster401]

No they aren't

[@BigBadWolframio]

A Link to the Past is the first Legend of Zelda game I ever played and I remember it fondly. Being able to switch between two eras and the changes to the map that brought was so fun and clever. Being able to progress through different parts of the main map with the skills you unlocked in each dungeon made the game feel bigger than it was. When Breath of the Wild came out, it took me quite some time to play it, and all I was seeing was praise for it and..., I mean, it's a fun game, but it was disappointing for me. Every corner of the world you go to, they tell you exactly the same story. With the same exact words and cinematics sometimes... It made the world feel smaller than it was. All dungeons were virtually the same, and after a while, I wondered what was the point of exploring. Sure, it's a beautiful game aesthetically, but it just didn't quite work for me. It doesn't help that games that want you to lose yourself in them doing smaller things by design, while narratively pressuring you into hurrying stress me out so much. What do you mean I should be looking for korogs while Zelda has been trapped there fighting Ganon for 100 years and about to lose her strength? 😢 It sours the small indulgent moments. It makes it seem like Link is an ass, decorating his house while Zelda keeps on waiting and Hyrule is in danger. But those small things are what make the game fun...

[@Silas_MN]

“if everywhere I go I always find the same thing, then what’s the point of exploring” is a great point that I think sums up a lot of issues I had with a lot BotW and TotK

[@kj_H65f]

​@@Silas_MNwell... speaking for me, it was fun just to see what new perspective I could see. The small trinkets and treasures were just icing. I dont get the complaints about the map not being fun to explore, for me it was the best part of that game and why I didn't enjoy TotK as much in that respect.

[@TheRealNintendoKid]

Link to the Past isn't about switching between eras, it's two different worlds.

[@BigBadWolframio]

@@TheRealNintendoKid oh, I didn't know! My game was in English and back then I didn't understand much. Only "past" in the title, so I figured that must've been it 😋

[@ThomasCpp]

If openness and player freedom was always better, I would never play a Zelda game when Minecraft exists.

[@mr.awesome6011]

This makes no sense as they are both very different games and off their own sense of freedom.

[@andersonpallot8784]

@@mr.awesome6011 I think that is kind of the point.

[@rpgfanatic9719]

Minecraft blows because all you do is build generic crap, and fight with bad combat.

[@ausgod538]

@@andersonpallot8784 its not a good point.

[@parrot998]

​​​​@@rpgfanatic9719You wanna know the biggest irony? Minecraft used to be good. Back in the Alpha and Beta versions of the game. And do you know why? Because it had limitations and gave you problems to solve through it's difficulty balancing and enemy AI. Spiders trampled crops, creepers could see through walls, fires were faster and more dangerous, food was limited unstackable and less powerful, there was no sprinting, no OP villages and way fewer loot chests to find, and night was basically unsurvivable unless you lit up and walled off an area. (which pushed you to engage with building mechanics to make the environment you might spend as much as half the game in aesthetically pleasing) Even once they added beds they initially didn't solve night cuz you could have nightmares which would wake you up and spawn enemies... It was like flipping a coin as to whether you could skip the night... And all of this combined with the simple game mechanics and synergy between game mechanics organically created problems that you had to solve through building. So even the game that is about building what you want was significantly better with more limitations.

[@indiesongwriter5474]

Aonuma, you disappoint me deeply.

[@FloorEyes0_0]

That quote by Aonuma will forever hang over this series

[@ash8244]

Oh yes cause a 30+ year old series should never evolve and just make a link to the past in 3d again and again. So many fake Zelda fans in these comments.

[@NimbusHero]

​@@ash8244 not agreeing with Aonuma makes you a fake fan now?

[@sparxskywriter2589]

@@ash8244 What the absolute hell is this response? Did you just legitimately read something else and accidentally respond to this one? What did he say that is AT ALL related to what you said?

[@OceanicManiac]

@@ash8244 Your open world is empty and boring

[@lavallur]

@@ash8244 fake fans are the worse. i too am a real zelda fan. i love never having a critical opinion and practicing the downward facing dog in front of aonuma

[@starrunner2838]

This video is fueled by Monster Energy

[@highdefinition450]

what did he mean by this

[@Naspheratu]

@@highdefinition450its an energy drink joke he made from watching the trailers, he was like hes “high” from energy drinks so hes not thinking straight

[@BiZkWiK87]

It's kind of wholesome witnessing a man go through his energy drink arc this late in life.

[@CorruptionManX]

​@@BiZkWiK87I drank energy drinks for the first time now, after I turned 30, and as I consider that I have lived long enough, I don't intend to go back.

[@BiZkWiK87]

@@CorruptionManX ah. I had way too much throughout my 20s. Just water and coffee for me now.

[@averagesoul8256]

crazy to me that in this short 3 minute clip of gameplay you can see more enemy types than tears

[@amandaslough125]

BotW and TotK have less enemy variety than Zelda I. FSA and TP have the most enemies at roughly about twice as much in comparison. Most games have around the 70 mark.

[@omensoffate]

@@naproupiyou mad

[@tolypolonty5766]

I never felt totk had poor enemy variety. In fact it added a bunch. Maybe it's less than other games but it's not something I found any issues with.

[@highdefinition450]

​@@naproupiyou are also here whining my guy lol, you are not above wasting time interacting with things you don't like. it's honestly even more pathetic to come into the comments to laugh at people criticizing the game than it is to criticize the game a year after it released tbh lol.

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

You sound like those elite Zelda fans

[@Sam_T2000]

I’m calling it now… navigating the “echo” menu is going to be the worst part of the game. and I’m still sad we don’t have _Wind Waker_ and _Twilight Princess HD_ on Switch, and I’m still hoping for HD pixel art remakes of the classic 2D games 😑

[@amysteriousviewer3772]

And they are not going to do anything about it just like TotK.

[@Zulban48]

It baffles me that they have not discovered the concept of arranging a large amount of options in a 2d grid instead of a linear slider, or at least making it so that each 'row' of the grid is its own category of items. ... Sorry, a correction: it's not that they haven't discovered it, it's that they have un-learned it because it's not 'modern UI design' or some other BS.

[@davidbeer5015]

There’s too many echoes for this (and fuse-able materials in TotK), but I’d love to see the options reduced some and they pull out the radial menu style like the original TP did (currently playing Arkham Knight again, and that just feels right for a pausing style item select)

[@Lucrei.]

@@Zulban48 they need to look at the PS3 GUI - that thing was and still is revolutionary

[@SideQuestStories]

We don't even have OoT 3D with its massive QoL improvements over the N64 version.

[@brotherpanda]

The biggest reason I want to go back to "old" style Zelda is Link used to be left-handed. He's been right-handed since Twilight Princess Wii edition and it's annoying. That's really the biggest gripe I've had for the last 18 years or so.

[@sparxskywriter2589]

Aye. Small of a detail as it was, it was something that made him stand out against a number of other characters.

[@Logans_Login]

He’s been left handed as recently as Link’s Awakening (Switch), though the last non reamke game he was left handed in was Tri-Force Heroes

[@thetraplord1564]

Breath of the Wild proved that Nintendo is willing to hear fan criticism if it's loud (and constructive enough). That's game's non-linearity was partially due to how people weren't a big fan of how linear Skyward Sword was. Tears of the Kingdom built off so much from Breath of the Wild's formula and they spent so much time with the new ultrahand stuff, but I don't think it's over for traditional Zelda elements.

[@nickearls2381]

That nostalgia quote reminds me a lot of a famous quote by World of Warcraft developer when asked about releasing classic versions of the game. “You think you do (want the old version), but you don’t”. It was widely panned and eventually Blizzard announced World of Warcraft Classic which was a huge success. Developers think they’re continuously improving on the original formula , so previous iterations are only desired due to nostalgia. How wrong they are, but you can see why it’s almost like a defensive knee jerk reaction by their ego… I think they feel as if you’re saying all the work they did “improving” the old formula was actually a waste.

[@fiercedeitygaming6210]

I have been subbed for upwards of 3 years and you have failed to alienate me. Do better.

[@Leord24]

The thing about the old Zelda games is you feel more rewarding, like in a dungeon in a link to the past there is a button you need to press but if you get off of it it will close a door, and there’s 4 statues but you don’t know you can move one, so when I accidentally moved one I felt so satisfied to see what I came up, that is the issue with TotK, like obviously it wants you to try things but it doesn’t encourage you to do it, like you can do an amazing super car to move all around Hyrule, or you can do something simpler but more practical which starts to get kind of boring.

[@HerEvilTwin]

Restrictions encourages creativity. Many musicians and artists deliberately restrict themselves when working to force them to be creative with what they got. “You can do anything” often results in less creative thinking

[@samuelstephens6904]

Good thing “you can do anything” describes precisely zero Zelda games.

[@FirstRecords204]

@@samuelstephens6904 this kind of dismissiveness is a monument compulsive defense of something you like. just a complete refusal to engage with the concept

[@samuelstephens6904]

@@FirstRecords204 What? It’s simply an objective fact that “you can do anything” describes precisely zero games in the Legend of Zelda series (or any video game for that matter).

[@chastermief839]

4:25 as soon as you cut to this area of great plateau i already knew exactly what you were going to bring up. This was a good tutorial moment because it does teach you to think about the environment as a truly malleable 3D playground. But remember being disappointed when i replayed this area for a second playthrough, because i realized "i don't think I ever used a tree to cross a gap except for this one exact chasm". Once you get the paraglider and some stamina upgrades, there's no need to ever engage with the environment in this way, you can just climb and fly over every obstacle.

[@saricubra2867]

Tears of The Kingdom is so, so much better. The only thing that i don't like is the plot which is melodramatic BS and i miss the depth of Twilight Princess's sword combat (i would dream if that game had significantly harder AI or more damage, it would be basically an extremely fast paced FromSoftware game)

[@philllllllll]

Like I've said for many video games in the past: if you make every approach equally viable, you fail to make any of them feel distinct. If every single level has an air vent at the start for the sneak approach, an accessible security terminal for the hacker approach and a crowded main corridor for the guns blazing approach, then you never need to adapt to new situations and come up with creative solutions brought up by the limitations of your build/choice of approach.

[@SideQuestStories]

Heck even that example would be better because you could at least put care and time into each of those solutions.

[@philllllllll]

@@SideQuestStories Make the hackable computer be in the middle of the crowded corridor. Make the stealth vent only accessible on your way back. Make the straight hallway full of turrets that need to be disabled for you to be able to go in guns blazing without dying There's all sorts of ways of mixing things up to force players to vary their approach instead of making each individual approach equally viable in all missions

[@SideQuestStories]

@@philllllllll Sure, but I'm saying that even if you don't you'll still get something better than pure linearity.

[@philllllllll]

@@SideQuestStories I disagree. Linearity isn't a flaw. Super Mario Bros. on the NES is linear as heck and still a fantastic game. Giving the player choice doesn't automatically make a game better.

[@MarkHogan994]

I think we have to realize that, logically, it is impossible that a game designer like Aonuma does not understand the value of limitations. Of course he does. All games have limitations, even in sports, card games, board games, etc..., that's the very concept of there being rules to a game. And BotW and TotK themselves have limitations. Weapon durability is, itself, a limitation. So I think that despite the very general nature of his statement, what he was really referring to was limitations to a player's creativity in solving problems. He almost certainly doesn't mean that games shouldn't have any limitations at all (as that wouldn't make any sense and arguably voids the very concept of what a game even is), most likely he simply means that it is more interesting to have fewer limitations on the player's ability to be creative when dealing with a puzzle or traversal challenge. Personally, I think he's right. What is so interesting about having one simple, pre-planned way of solving everything? As a player, I much prefer games that give me options and allow me to flex my creative muscles. Moreover, the old formula has been done to death, not just by Zelda, but by a million other games that "lock and key" game design. Giving players more options in terms of how to tackle a problem is fascinating and few games have done it as well as BotW and TotK. And that doesn't mean the puzzles can't be challenging. I do think TotK's puzzles were a bit too easy, but I think that was a consequence how strong the player's tools were, not a consequence of players having choices. Elden Ring gives players a lot of choices in how to approach situations, and yet still remains challenging. It's easy to imagine problems having multiple solutions but still being difficult because the solutions are either hard to identify or hard to execute (or both). I think the Zelda team deserve our confidence that they can continue to innovate and improve. They obviously want to make games that focus on freedom, and they are clearly burnt out on the old formula. Which is completely understandable tbh. They want to do something different, and as long as they keep making excellent games, I'm here for it. I'm sure they'll keep working on finding the right balance between clever puzzles, dungeon design, and freedom.

[@highdefinition450]

what's interesting about having one solution? it requires you to think, to use the tools that have been given to you and work out the solution. i feel the complete opposite of you, what's interesting about a puzzle where everything you can think of works? there is no problem-solving, there is no logic, all you need is to find one reliable solution and keep using it ad nauseam (platform + recall, for example). it's boring, and it's uninspired. it puts the onus on you to make the puzzle fun by putting limitations on your gameplay instead of them having to design something more complex

[@amandaslough125]

A key that can open a many locks is a great key. A lock that is opened by many keys is a terrible lock.

[@hist150project5]

What other games use the "Zelda formula"? The only major one I can think of is Okami.

[@samuelstephens6904]

@@highdefinition450 C’mon, what puzzles in BotW/TotK don’t require the players to literally think or use various tools in solving them? This is ridiculous and extremely hyperbolic. Zelda games have never had crazy puzzles (because they aren’t puzzle games of course), but TotK easily has the most sophisticated puzzle-design in the series so far.

[@realSallad]

my prediction is that the freedoms for Echoes of Wisdom is primarily in the overworld and accessing the dungeons, alla Link Between Worlds but to an even freer degree than the rent system ever could’ve been. The hope then is that the dungeons themselves have specific dungeon items specifically for said dungeons. I can’t see the “make a hoverbike and skip the dungeon” strategy working with the echoes mechanic, at least in the ways it’s been shown so far. making stair cases out of beds is more constrained than a hoverbike and i think the dungeons can easily be designed to not allow too much exploit, yknow? i’m actually very interested to see how dungeon items work using a point system, where you pay triangles to use them.

[@PhantomHalf]

Its sad to think that another twilight princess, majoras mask or wind waker will never be made.

[@zacharypeterson7157]

My first zelda game was twilight princess hd as a teenager. I then played wind waker hd, then botw when it came out. Then played link to the past and it is now my favorite even after playing all the zelda games. Looks like old zelda is dead as we knew it

[@Hocaro]

Windwaker was criticized for being vastly different from previous iterations but it ended up being one of my favourites.

[@LittleBeanGreen]

I appreciate your level-headed takes on a lot of this Zelda stuff. As someone who is newer to the Zelda-content-creation side of things, it's amazing how ardent, antagonistic, and unassailable people are about their position on what I consider to be a very interesting moment in Zelda history. I too am cautiously optimistic about Echoes of Wisdom and I think its gameplay is going to work better in the 2D world but....time will tell. Stay strong, my brother in arms.

[@Scerttle]

I remember hearing a bunch of poetic stuff about how limitation breeds creativity and the endless possibilities of modern game development is why a lot of stuff feels very samey now-a-days. Aonuma basically declaring himself basic.

[@Scerttle]

There we go, there's my inflammatory comment lmao

[@melinarose3645]

Or he saw that there is so little room to make an actual game that feels new in the old zelda Formular. I mean I don't agree with his statement. But if we would have gotten to basic zelda games what di u think? It would have been the death of the zelda franchise. The old Formular didn't just limit the player but also the story telling and gameplay ideas. I think we already saw almost everything there is to see in the old Formular. That's the problem. It would have always gotten more and more uncreative. But with comoemtly new wind there is a lot of new ways to create a game. I love the old zelda games but sometimes that's not enough.

[@MagikarpPower]

metroid dev said the same thing and that's how we got other M. i think video games were just a new untapped market and now everyone has already played tons of games so their view of what a game is is more narrow, instead of the endless possibilities in the 80s and 90s. now ppl have expectations and going outside of them can be punishing.

[@highdefinition450]

​@melinarose3645 the new formula limits the storytelling even more tho lol. it's so fragmented and uninvolved in botw, but especially totk. you can still make the old formula feel fresh, they just don't know how. there's a difference, the problem is on them, not the games.

[@ausgod538]

@@highdefinition450 theres no problem. most of the public enjoys those games as its seen by sales of both of the newer games.

[@TemporalShrew]

Shortsighted, I feel, to put it in these terms. It’s impossible to argue there will “never” be anything in any meaningful way. A few days ago people would have argued a new Mario and Luigi game wasn’t in the cards for years, if ever, based on the available information. Things happen. Sometimes for financial reasons, sometimes on the whims of a developer or higher-up. What a developer, company, or even market says or believes is constantly subject to change.

[@thestomp1647]

Fans: All your music sounds the same. Can’t you update your sound? Artist: Okay. I hope you like my new album. Fans: we don’t like your new album. Can’t you make one that sounds like your old stuff. artist: Okay. Here’s my new retro style album. Fans: All your music sounds the same…

Well put

[@bravecereza]

Yeah, he's the embodiment of the Zelda cycle.

[@DemianCorvus]

Totally agree with you. As someone fascinated with videogame design, I understand where Aonuma is coming from, but after playing BotW and TotK, I see how valuable it is for Player Experience to confront puzzles that can be solved by one or few solutions. It's through that that we are able to really enjoy overcoming those obstacles, and there is value in that.

[@maliciousbugman]

To the people whining about "the old formula being around for decades" and it "needing" to be reinvented after just one commonly-agreed big stinker, I have this to ask: why isn't formula such a big problem for Mario? Or Pokemon? Or Kirby?

[@SilentGhost91548]

Really? One of your examples is Pokemon? The series that gets constantly ragged on for sticking to the same formula? And both Mario and Kirby switch things up with every game, the only difference is their fans aren’t blinded by nostalgia like Zelda and Pokemon fans are.

[@DeBean970]

Pokemon isn't the best example but true.

[@XanderVJ]

@@SilentGhost91548 Zelda switched things up in every game just as much as Mario and Kirby do. The only game in the series that felt truly derivative was "Twilight Princess", and even in that game saying that was a stretch at best. But when it comes to Zelda criticism, it tends to boil down on shallow observations based on gold-fish like pattern recognition, like the BS argument of "Set of dungeons - Master Sword - Set of dungeons - Final Battle" that people brought up all the time back in the day. Now, this is also a problem with BotW and TotK. That's why people sent Nintendo the wrong message regarding the Divine Beast. People were so fixated on the shallow observation that all of them had the same aesthetic, while failing to address the actual real game design problems they had, like lacking level design and puzzles that were too easily bipassed by brute force. And the result was the worst "dungeon" roster in the entire series in TotK, since they thought that the only thing they needed to fix them was to put a different aesthetic to each one, and doubled down on all the actual real problems. Which doesn't speak well of the current Zelda team as level designers.

[@ausgod538]

@@XanderVJ current zelda team lol you dont even know anyone outside of aonuma dude.

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

Who cares

[@Cuprite1024]

Every time I see this take, it just comes off as melodramatic. I genuinely don't see how this game being a middle-ground between classic 2D Zelda and the new style means "No more classic Zelda EVER." Idk, it's a pretty big leap in logic imo.

[@RavenGamingOverLord]

Agreed

[@weatherman1504]

Ratatoskr is a channel dedicated to nearly exclusively negative takes.

[@bravecereza]

​@@weatherman1504Yeah I sometimes wonder who pissed in his cereals

[@rGGdom]

I feel you bro... what amazed us about Breath of the Wild now seems as a curse for all future Zelda games. I like the new take (except for TotK wich I thought was disappointing), but that didn't meant we didn't want more of the old take too

[@SideQuestStories]

BotW is completely consistent with its freedom philosophy (one possible exception of the Yiga Hideout), TotK has a completely scrambled nonsensical philosophy of more freedom but also linearity but also gating but also you can do this in any order but won't make sense if you actually do...

[@natethebad]

I am strongly torn between (1) my love for the older Zelda formula and the desire to see new games in that style with different gimmicks; and (2) the realization that I sure have played a lot of that style of Zelda game and would love new games that more aggressively shake things up. I will try my best to set aside that conflict and play this game unclouded by either undue excitement or undue disappointment, factoring out what it isn't and what it represents as much as possible.

[@VaporShiroVTuberCh]

Its just a remake of the cdi games Lmfao!

[@Nebyulosity]

I guess I just don't understand that tear. Why would you want the series to "shake things up"? I'd much prefer the franchise stick to it's legacy Zelda-like gameplay genre, because that's predictable, reliable, and tells me exactly what to expect from the games in terms of gameplay genre. Plus, they're exceptional at making the Zelda-like genre. There's a reason the genre is named after franchise afterall. So if I crave a new Zelda-like, I know that Zelda (the franchise) will be that. Otherwise if I don't crave a Zelda-like, I can explore the many other games out there instead. I don't see the point in demanding that Zelda the franchise kill it's unique niche by catering to my desire to play other genres. That's just such an absurd desire to have in my eyes. By "shaking things up", all they've done is pulled the rug out from under us about what to expect and now the Zelda-like genre of the franchise has been replaced with these sub-par, experimental sandboxes. If I wanted to play a sandbox, there are already much better sandbox games out there. In short, to be completely honest, I think this desire to "shake things up" is ridiculously nonsensical.

[@thefirefridge5187]

I'll be one of the few in the comments here to say I actually kinda like this. I love the older zelda games. Restrictions can require you to carefully consider your options to find the correct solution, which can make for a satisfying solution. But once you've figured out that solution, thats it. Theres no more satisfaction to gain. So on subsequent playthroughs, I feel like I'm just repeating a pattern I learned rather than solving a puzzle. Meanwhile in the more open format with multiple options, I'm given the freedom to try whatever I want. And when I create a solution, its my solution. It makes my playthrough feel unique and more interactive. And next playthrough, I can try something totally different. Thats just something I appreciate in a game. The personal quality to my experience with a game. And it's something I especially appreciate if I'm going to replay it.

[@joshuafreyman7287]

I love this new direction. The core of enjoyment for zelda games is the feeling of adventure and applications of critical thinking. I can't wait for zelda echos of wisdom to come out.

[@Ianmar1]

Have the recent games given you a feeling of adventure? An adventure usually has a quest, and the player makes progress along the quest by engaging with the game mechanics. The Wilds era has the quest occur in the backstory and the player is left in the endgame with only optional content and collectables left to do before the final boss.

[@DesTr069]

@@Ianmar1bro on my own I went to an island in the sky shrouded in clouds and thunder. There, I found an ancient mask that led all the way down to the depths, where I had to build a freaking mech by gathering its parts. Using that same mech, I travelled to an ancient temple where I fought a boxing match against a similar mech. A storyline I found by accident, before the game told me to go there. That was one of the most magical moments I’ve had in any video game. If you can’t find a sense of adventure in these games, then that’s ok, they’re not for everyone obviously. But I for one sure had some very fun adventures in the wilds era, some intended as part of the story, and some of my own

[@highdefinition450]

​@@DesTr069i mean that's psrt of the main quest tbf lol. the island was cool but i was disappointed there was no dungeon after that lmao

[@Silas_MN]

@@Ianmar1I do think TotK did this a lot better than BotW. it obfuscated just how much of what you were doing was skippable until the end

[@Ianmar1]

@@DesTr069 Yeah, I believe you when you say that it was one of the most magical video game moments you have ever had. There are some locations which reward your exploration with spectacle rather than the standard shrine or korok seed and these can be very remarkable. I recall when I first stumbled upon Farosh in lake Hylia, it was awe inspiring: I could not help but wonder where it fit into the lore, how I could interact with it, what secrets it would lead me to, and how it would change the way I would interact with the world ... many hours later I was grinding it for resources. What this experience lacked was delayed gratification, it did not really move the needle insofar as I how I could engage with the world unless you count grinding for overpowered armor and food buffs.

[@saber7534]

I think generally its a matter of its too soon for the shift. This game has most definitely been in development since before TOTK even launched. If the negativity of totks feedback impacts development in any way, it wont take form for a while. And theres always the potential that maybe Aonuma and Fujibayashi won't direct a future zelda that releases. I am excited to not have totk being the centerpoint of discussion anymore though, and game looks fun. Just, dont completely give up on ever seeing a 2D zelda again. Giving up is how dreams die.

[@Rheinwald]

i think if anything they were reinforced by totk, show-stopping reviews and record-breaking sales. i have my problems with the game and prefer botw but they are ALL IN with this

[@Logicalleaping]

I think its clear this game came about because of the outcry of fans wanting to play as Zelda (for some reason). I think this will be a fantastic game and 'potentially' a way to link player freedom less the Zelda games but more to 'Zelda as the protagonist' games. weird that Aonuma said that Zelda wouldn't wield a sword when Link could easily wield the 'Trirod'. Just me probably but never been keen on playing as Zelda. I'm inclined to think that classic will still be around, might take a bit longer to get back. but just as Skyward Sword killed the classic formula a game will kill this new formula and a perfect middle ground can be found. Either way Aonumas importance in how a Zelda game comes out isn't as big as I think people believe. Aonumas last Zelda game he directed was Skyward Sword the 'player freedom' is probably mostly someone elses ideology. I dunno hard to tell, but seems pretty reasonable to assume that 2D zelda isn't 'Dead' this is just the developers trying the BotW approach with 2D. Personally I hope this approach dies as I think it ruins the flow of the games ALBW was my least favourite zelda game simply because having all the items at the beginning of the game is dumb.

[@tbnwontpop8857]

Yeah I agree, Rata's reaction isn't warranted here. They didn't respond to TotK's criticism last year by making a whole ass game made to spite Zelda fans ready to ship in that time span.

[@tbnwontpop8857]

@@Logicalleaping "For some reason" bruh do you know that women like to play video games too? And men who love anime waifus? They want a Zelda-lead experience and it's okay to oblige that demand. Playable Zelda won't hurt you.

[@Logicalleaping]

@@tbnwontpop8857 Thats not a great argument. I don't want to play as a male character when I play Tomb Raider. Believe it or not but women are perfectly happy playing as male characters. I'd sooner want Linkle as a female option if thats the route they want to go. The whole purpose of Zelda games is Link is pulled into Zeldas troubles and helps. Link pulling Zelda into trouble is less enticing because Link is a player insert with no personality (generally). I'm not saying I won't play the game or enjoy it, I definitely will. I'm just saying that the outcry for playable Zelda feels weird.

[@humbertosandoval55]

As someone from the 80's that played classic Zelda games, I think it's a good thing they let the classic formula rest for a few years, the come back will be better.

[@Whispernyan]

Ocarina of Time to Skyward Sword was 13 years. Skyward Sword came out 13 years ago. How long is one supposed to wait.

[@Ianmar1]

I love your optimism!

[@kaykeywakey6173]

When BOTW came out, and then again when TOTK came out, I was fully embracing the new Zelda direction and thought it was great for the series. Now that they have both been out for some time, I find myself unwilling to go back to them, and wishing for a title more in line with classic Zelda games. The replayability factor illustrates with perfectly. I have played BOTW and TOTK each twice, once to rush though the story, and again to accomplish everything in the game. And I never want to go back to them. Classic Zelda titles though, (Ocarina of Time I'm lookin' at you) I have replayed countless times, and still go back to replay them every couple of years.

[@Hocaro]

As a 2D Zelda fan it’s nice to get something brand new and experimental. I can definitely empathize w/ traditional zelda enjoyers though because it has been a long time since we’ve received a more curated experience with decent storytelling and lore.

[@Ophmar4]

BotW alienated a lot of fans, but TotK is what I consider to be the true divide. It's a stubborn and unapologetic "you're not getting the series you love" to classic fans. I'm curious to see how well this game will do, and what type of "discourse" the game will inspire. Echoes of Wisdom might be a great game, but I won't know until months after it's released if I decide to purchase it. Everyone yelled at me to trust the devs with TotK, and I did because I wanted the game to be great. It's impressive to be certain, but after 300+ hours, I'm struck by a sense of blandness and aimlessness. Despite what they may have shown (or not shown) in EoW, every Zelda title from now on will be met with extreme skepticism on my part. Hopefully, that doesn't turn to disinterest.

[@TheRealNintendoKid]

That's an interesting take because it feels like the series I loved has finally returned after 20 years of garbage.

[@Ophmar4]

@@TheRealNintendoKid I don't really see how it's a return even as far back as Zelda 1. Zelda (this includes Zelda 1) used to have interesting rewards in chests, now chests are incidental with bland rewards. Zelda used to focus on dungeons and intererconnected puzzle box, and now the world is the focus with dungeons barely mattering and obstacles replacing puzzles. Zelda used to have a curated experience (for good and bad), but now the journey is optional and the world is so broad that it's copy/pasted with repetitive activities to present a general sameness. I could go on about how the type of game has completely changed, but I don't feel like writing a thesis. I'm not saying BotW and TotK are bad games, but they're definitely not the same genre for what came before. A reinvention is not necessarily an evolution, and I think it's important to acknowledgement that seperation. Just because the devs were inspired by Zelda 1, it doesn't mean they focused on elements that that game introduced. There's no return to anything, why do you think so many people in the Zelda community are dissatisfied? It's not nostalgia, the games are completely different. If we're going back 20 years from BotW, that'd land you around ALttP. How would BotW bring back forgotten elements of past Zeldas (especially when ALttP helped refine the classic formula)? Even if you go before or after, the classic model persists. Either you're just saying it's a return because that's what the devs implied and you took their word for it, or you're misremembering what Zelda used to actually be. Actually compare the games and you'll see for yourself that classic and modern are vastly different. Correction: if we went back 20 years, it would be closer OoT, which is an even more established classic formula. Apologies, I had SS on the brain.

[@pabloezcurlbar7253]

The metroidvania approach has always been super satisfying to me in the classic Zelda formula. Just experiencing the steady power curve and increasing availability of options and looking back along the line to realize you have so many places to return to and use your new items. BOTW and TOTK pretty much gave you everything you'd need for the playthrough in the first 45 minutes and gave you the choice to tackle anything in any order, leading to there being no possible way for each dungeon to build ontop of other ideas or the story being interconnected. Otherwise I'm absolutely the kind of player to turn every stone and look for everything I could possibly uncover but the realization that I was already ready for anything the game could offer really killed my urge to explore. Making climbing such an integral part of the game while having puzzles be "reach this point" also led to their solution of just spamming unclimbable oiled-up walls, turning the whole stamina gauge useless for most of the dungeon experience. Feels especially weird when exploration usually only rewarded heart/stamina upgrades depending on your choice while both are mostly useless for any kind of shrine activities in which they were acquired.

[@nietzscheente1271]

My biggest problem with the open world zelda games is the fact i don't play them twice. The limited story driven zelda games let me visit them more often because they are short and sweet. Finished BotW once and finished TotK once, but i will never play them again. Zelda OoT, MM, WW and TP i play at least once every year. It's just the old school formula i prefer over 'freedom'.