There's Only ONE FLAW in Across the Spider-Verse

[@zach1690]

Gwen literally asks Miguel if he knows that this canon event theory is right and he says "do you want to find out." I think the writers made Miguel being wrong pretty strongly implied. Especially when you see Gwen's realization after her canon event is disrupted.

[@Jvggr]

and not to mention pav is still alive after having his canon disrupted and supposedly being dead. his universe should have unraveled with the disrupted canon but that never happened

[@thalmoragent9344]

I don't think he's wrong per say, but the Spider Society has SEEN this happen, that's the thing

[@ConnoisseurPNM]

Its not that he fully believes it either, he just doesnt want to end up right without doing anything

[@dimitrismardikis]

And also by having the animation between the destruction of Miguel’s world and Mumbattan be different styles. The former looking like the glitching and the latter looking like Spot’s holes

[@TheFunnyDictator]

​@@dimitrismardikisWdym? Please reply to me!

[@Raccoon_Murphy]

I believe this is exactly what the directors wanted us to notice, constantly proving Miguel is wrong through showing us events that don’t fit in his theory.

[@mycomnithegreat434]

Also, we _conveniently_ don't see any Spider-Person variant that would disrupt Miguel's theory. Miles himself is actually a good example of an excluded Spider-Man (albeit one we do see in the film). Mile's origin story is, in fact, Peter Parker dying and Miles becoming Spider-Man in _Ultimate Fallout_ #4 of the _Ultimate Marvel_ spin-off. So it's reasonable to say that is his canon event, because that is what happens in that particular timeline. But Miguel assumes he's an anomaly bc he (Miles) doesn't fit the formula. It's just Miles' canon events are different from "normal", and Miguel seems like he's clinging to that ideal of a standard. After all, if he's wrong about Miles, what _else_ is he wrong about? Whether that is on purpose on Miguel's part, or is just confirmation bias of coincidentally only finding worlds that fit the theory, is uncertain. What I do know is that by Marvel logic, Miguel is dead wrong and Beyond the Spider-Verse is going to slap him in the face with that. My theory is that he's not going to take it very well lol

[@alexjimenez997]

Tbf, I wanna see Miguel being right. Making it more interesting

[@illy_is_me1007]

exactly

[@poggestfrog]

@@alexjimenez997 I have a feeling he is partially right, and that they are destabilizing dimentions accidentally in some way, since considering how deep the writing is I don't think they'll just do "these hundreds of geniuses who are variants of spider-man just didn't try hard enough"

[@pixelzebra8440]

I think something else happened to his world that he doesn’t know about and he thinks he has caused it

[@luk_testa4911]

I think that the simplest explaination is also the correct one: Miguel is simply mistaken about what causes the disruption of the universes, and we are probably going to find out the actual reason in the next movie

[@tcyrus1909]

I agree. I was under the impression that the inconsistencies were intentional to try and let the audience better justify Miles' decision, acting as proof that cannon events aren't what Miguel thinks they are.

[@Wax_Man]

that's what I'm thinking. It is really the only way that we can have an ending that's not the multiverse crashing down

[@brendanp1928]

I hope so because that’s what’ll make the next movie really good

[@ashazmanzer1161]

agreed but it feels so stupid

[@nathansragow4780]

I think there is a lot pointing to something more sinister on Miguel's part (I commented on this video explaining it if you wanna check it out it's long 😂) what do you think of that theory?

[@mr.temtem4884]

Another thing is, how has Spider Noir's dimension not colapsed after taking the rubix cube back with him?

[@paztah2194]

I think it’s only applied to ppl or living organisms

[@mcpudd-20k]

@@paztah2194then how hasn’t MayDay collapsed the B. Parker universe? Peter B. specifically tells miles he had her because he wants her to be like miles. If miles was never supposed to be Spider-Man, then Peter B. Should’ve never met him, and he would’ve never made the choice to have a kid. That’s why Hobie loves her so much. She “takes a crap on the establishment” by just existing.

[@yungvolio7853]

Who's gonna tell him

[@Sleepy_Muse]

@@yungvolio7853tell him that he has a point? Yes mayday belongs in peters universe so she Dosent glitch out or anything, but the question remains why can she exist Peter does have a kid named mayday who becomes spider girl. but the reason why he has her at all different now, and caused by “an anomaly” The universe can make an acception in maydays case, but not much else? And for that matter it still Dosent answer why the universe without a Spider-Man still exsist, as well as miles timeline where his Peter dies In addition to that, MILES HIMSELF HAS CANNON EVENTS If he’s an anomaly yet has cannon events, that SHOULD mean that he’s not actually an anomaly, and that everything is going the way it should That or, whoever’s pulling the strings of the universe can actually plan ahead for issues like miles, but when a captain isent crushed by a falling building so that one super human can learn a lesson about responsibility, the entire reality filled with an unfathomable amount of lives is thrown into the gutter?? Unless your telling me the stability of MCU is for some reason places on the lives of theses spider people. And there just the chosen suffers of existence for no good reason It just Dosen’t make sense Besides, Miguel was traveling universes before he knew about cannon events, he has to have been up to something before then

[@normalchannel2185]

i'm sure that would be the MOST disruptive thing. IT ACTUALLY WOULD FREAKING BREAK THE LAWS OF THAT UNIVERSES PHYSICS!!! And no, saving 1 person's life trumps that

[@justinmcdonald5816]

By Gwen inspiring her father to quit the force, did she not disrupt her own cannon event and then realize for herself that despite doing so, her universe showed no signs of collapse? It was unsaid, but I think in that moment she realized Miguel was lying and she fully committed to building a resistance against him and support Miles in saving his father.

[@shivambhanushali3086]

Yep

[@dwzenix7954]

That's my headcanon too!

[@elshelalu2027]

I think that's specifically what the writers wanted the audience to know.

[@JC3178]

Kind of a reach. She didn't directly disrupt it, therefore her universe wouldn't come crashing down immediately. Now if she had saved her dad as he was going to be crushed by rubble, that would be a different story

[@michaelnugraha7465]

@@JC3178 True

[@SaiScribbles]

I think it's possible that Miguel is sincerely mistaken about how this works. I mean, you can easily predict he's going to be proven wrong somehow.

[@Goose5050b]

Even by watching Hobie's reactions, you can realize that Miguel is mistaken. Hobie makes his own dimension-hopping wrist watch (which he gives to Gwen at the end of the movie), and he NEVER reacts as strongly as Miguel - Hobie dismisses Miguel in all their interactions and encourages Miles, which suggests Miguel doesn't fully understand the connections in the Spiderverse.

[@BetterHumans6666]

Especially when he repeated himself concerning Gwen’s statement as to them being the good guys.

[@cagegames4755]

@@Goose5050b Probably because Hobie ain't experienced what Miguel has and it's not in Hobie's character to freak out anyways.

[@Akashi-ml9dn]

@@Goose5050b Having rebel as your example is not exactly the best for portraying things

[@Goose5050b]

@@Akashi-ml9dn it doesn't matter that he's a rebel. He cares a lot for Miles, he even turns pink around him. If stopping Captain Morales' death would unravel Miles' universe, Hobie would NEVER allow or encourage Miles to try

[@alexis989125]

I've seen theories that because the Earth-42 spider bit Miles, his 'fate' has swapped with the Miles of Earth-42. It was always suppose to bite Miles; it just bit the 'wrong one.' The fact that he's been fine thus far is proof that Miguel's theory is at least somewhat incorrect.

[@seanmichaelpe2357]

there's a quick frame where when the spot is talking to miles and his dad, the spider from earth 42 is sucked into his dimension. in that frame, you can clearly see earth 42 miles (implying that the spider was about to bite 42 miles)

[@gzuz4148]

Thats what i was thinking and it makes logical sense also since the spider verse movies are mainly about Miles' story everything happening IS canon but only to Miles hes supposed to meet the spider society and get berated by Miguel My point is since the movies are Miles' story everything IS supposed to happen the way it is hes not the one messing up the story its Miguel whos messing with Miles' story

[@genericre]

this is especially true in my eyes due to the fact that its heavily implied that the Miles from Earth-1610 (the main one we follow through the movies) would become the next Prowler under his uncle Aaron if the spider didn't bite him, due to how close the two seemed early in the movie. So, 1610 Miles was supposed to become the Prowler and 42 Miles was supposed to become Spider-Man, and their roles were switched when the 42 Spider came to 1610 due to Alchemax's actions from the first film.

[@ale_islost]

This theory proves even stronger bc during ITSV, when Miles gets his first "You're just like me" with the original 42's Spider-Man, when their spider-senses are going off on each other, Miles' spider-sense is green and purple, but it switches to red and blue after a moment. This could imply that in fact, 42 Miles and 1610 Miles' fates were switched due to the actions of Kingpin and Alchemax

[@VaderViktor]

The fact that both Earth-42 and Miles' earth haven't collapsed proves that Miguel is wrong. But if Miguel is right, then the entire story becomes rife with plot holes

[@rosalindgatto9630]

I feel like the 'canon event' theory might help some of the older Spiders relieve themselves of guilt. 'It's not just my fault that my Uncle/the Police Captain died, it's a canon event that I couldn't have done anything about.' Just a possible reason why so many Spider People (many of whom would be considered geniuses in their own universes) uncritically believed Miguel's theory. It also makes Gwen not wanting to go back to her universe not just about avoiding getting arrested, she's been told that 'the captain dying' is a canon event (especially if it's Captain Stacy), so if she goes back, HER DAD WILL DIE. If she's not there to affect the 'plot' of her universe, her dad is safe, so the fact that being forced back to her universe was hung over her head for most of the movie as a threat, and later followed through with, was horrible and manipulative of every adult Spider Person involved.

[@aristotleponepule4991]

not to mention that now that he's no longer captain, the event has been disrupted

[@Alienoiable]

Except she already saved her dad and "disrupted" the canon, and did so before even the first movie. It's stated when she tells her story, with the "let's do this one more time" beat. So that wasn't even a risk for her.

[@Thunder1i1y]

I don't understand why Gwen's dad dying is even a supposive event in the first place, as in her universe her canon death was Peter Parker. Same with Miles, his uncle died changing him as a character, so why does his dad have to die now? Unless his uncle wasn't supposed to die, and that's another anomaly..

[@Mewdo45]

Dunno about that. Miguel feels extremely guilty over disrupting a cannon event, so guilty that he is made it hes made an entire army of super powered humans just to stop that from ever happening

[@royolaniye6643]

​@@Thunder1i1y a high ranking police officer is supposed to die in each universe I'm guessing, for Gwen's universe, it's her dad, Captain Stacy, for Miles' universe, it's his dad, Captain Davis

[@homemadecinema560]

I honestly doubt that the writers could have overlooked something like this, I'm sure that this will all be revealed and explained in the next one.

[@smolltaco5667]

it may be the assistant ai that just lied to miguel, she doesnt interact much in across the spider verse so she may be a big part of the third movie

[@notmr.barocksonjohnson570]

100%. Miles, Gwen, Peter B, and Pavitr have glaring cannon event inconsistencies that's gotta be intentional.

[@kingcupcakes5171]

@@smolltaco5667 I will lose my shit if the AI was behind all this. That would be about as bad as modern day Disney twist villains.

[@smolltaco5667]

@@kingcupcakes5171 yeah but i dont think miguel should be lying either, it would be the same thing or worse

[@pixssassin]

@@smolltaco5667 did u observe mighel thru the movie he was acting too sus

[@GiveMeTheRice]

You’ll also notice that the showing of Miguel’s universe being deleted looks entirely different than what is happening on Pav’s universe after Miles saves the captain. Looks more like just another one of Spot’s holes as apposed to everyone getting Thanos snapped

[@zurzakne-etra7069]

yes! so which is a consequence of a canon event being disrupted and which is just spot doing things...

[@defaultweeb3389]

thats not a good solution because they literally said that they had to intervene with the anomaly due to the event not happening

[@grandmasterg8572]

Or were the TVA were deleting it

[@basslinegrave]

@@grandmasterg8572 after watching this vid, i also immediately thought of the TVA lol

[@mauz791]

it looks exactly like Kingpin's collider from the first movie

[@zarinaa1135]

Also, Miles's 'Uncle Ben Moment', the death of Uncle Aaron, only happened because of other Spider-People being in his dimension. If Aaron caught Miles and realized who he was and didn't kill him, which is what was happening, he wouldn't have died because Kingpin wouldn't be there to shoot him because he was overseeing the attack at Aunt May's house where the Spider-People were. So other dimension people CAN effect Cannon Events without everything getting dusted.

[@somedumbspammer4408]

as far as we know, though, Insomniac Miles (from the PlayStation Games) hasn't lost his Aaron (yet).

[@shivarampersaud6799]

​@@marcosloldeloh you make a great point. In that case, Miles' dad needing to die as a canon event is wrong. In Miles' vision, we never actually see the spot kill Jeff. We see he's in danger, but the fact that it's not concrete in that vision implies that it's an event that can, or even will be stopped.

[@nicolasstegmayer6142]

@@marcosloldel well, I think it is implied that miguel made that presentation. Like it's not some mystical prophecy, he tells lyla to "do the thing". An event being there or not doesn't prove anything when miguel or lyla were the ones that curated the clips, most likely

[@WhenYouveGoneGuru]

This doesn't seem like a problem in the story's internal consistency. The story establishes that the problem lies in disrupting canon events, not causing them. There's no reason to assume that the source of a canon event must come from within that same universe.

[@dragonfyre8928]

@@WhenYouveGoneGuru Unless you take into account that the canon event is, according to Miguel, CAUSED BY THE DISRUPTION OF CANON in ANOTHER UNIVERSE. Spiderman wasn't "supposed" to die fighting Kingpin, that happened because Earth 42's spider bit Miles, causing him to return to Alchemax for answers and get Peter Parker KILLED. This, in turn, caused the creation of the Spot, because of the circumstances in which the collider was stopped. Peter Parker would have turned it off *before* it got turned on, meaning no Spot, no Officer death in the Tea Tea Universe. This problem has nagged me since i watched the movie last Friday, and if Miles is "non canon" (using that term instead of anomaly because honestly it makes more sense in the way that it's explained) then why does his existence affect canon?

[@witchmations]

While rewatching the movie after seeing this video I noticed that when Gwen reunites with her dad and he quits being captain she has this moment where she goes "Wait a minute, you're not going to be captain? That means.." she doesn't finish the thought out loud, and the first time I didn't really catch it, but this moment might foreshadow that Miguel is wrong because her father can never die in an accident if he isn't even captain and nothing bad happens to her universe. She effectively broke cannon, and nothing happened.

[@alpacalorde]

I figured they would make the resolution to miles' dad similar where they have to try and convince him to give up the badge lol

[@russellharkins6847]

And the only reason Gwen's dad quit was because he found Spider-Woman was his daughter. And the only reason Gwen took off her mask was because she got caught after the fight with the inter-dimensional vulture. What caused the vulture to be sucked out of his dimension and thrown into Gwen's?

[@alpacalorde]

@@russellharkins6847 maybe since her dad is no longer the police chief and he can't die under the title of police chief she didn't BREAK canon but maybe she changed it? like, if something miles does alters the time lines of other spideys maybe the multiverse is fine? possibly insinuating the Miguel either lied or is misguided and incorrect

[@russellharkins6847]

@@alpacalorde I mean yeah, Miguel is wrong. But if these canons are really what holds all these spideys together (which I don't think they are) and they MUST happen, it would be impossible to change canon without collapse. But I wanna know why the vulture got transported to Gwen's dimension in the first place. I could just be missing that, but I don't think they explain it in the movie.

[@brownie3454]

@@russellharkins6847 the collider from the first movie

[@LigadOss]

Biggest problem is also the whole premise of the major conflict. If Miles was never even supposed to be Spider-Man in his universe and his existence as one is an anomaly, why the hell does he even have canon events?

[@tomasm.9647]

That´s exactly what I think.

[@ShortTimeNoSee]

Same thought. I was convinced this video was about that lol

[@Garmfald]

I assumed Miles's universe automatically started adapting canon events onto Miles as a sort of plan B. Although it seems more likely that Miguel is either lying or mistaken about something

[@dactylicpoet791]

What I'm struggling to understand is why Miles didn't get sent back to his original universe. The spider that bit Miles was from the prowler miles universe but not Miles himself so does the sending home machine consider the spider DNA or the person? It seems to consider the DNA of the villains it sends home though.

[@evonthon]

​@jerimahaorton6879 I feel like it ended up being a coin flip between which DNA it scanned (assuming he has multiple) though it is worth pointing out that he must not have much aberrant DNA, because he doesn't glitch in the home universe, and he does in 42.

[@ghostygirl2395]

If Miguel *is* wrong, or even misleading the spiders, then it's pretty easy to see why they would follow him. A whole *society* of people who share your trauma and particular struggles would be worth it for, like, most of the spiders, and knowing the people in their lives who have died died for a reason would help, too. Not to mention, they're all superheroes, so helping on a scale even bigger than their own world would probably sound amazing to them.

[@fynaglin9075]

I still enjoy one of the first discourses when the movie came out was, "There's not way that many Spiders are just gonna follow a single one." It's like Hobie said, "Being a Spider is a solo gig." why would ALL of them just strangely unite and seemingly without question?

[@_kaleido]

@@fynaglin9075 wasn’t it kinda implied that Miguel hand-picked the majority of the people in his organization? For all we know there are hundreds, if not thousands of Spider-people who rejected his offer/Miguel knew wouldn't be good fits, and all those we see are exceptions to the rule.

[@fynaglin9075]

@@_kaleido Still seems sus, I mean that seems to a LOAD of exceptions. And we know this all came together inside of sixteen months. He couldn't have jumped around that much and convinced that many who "were a good fit" and have a load of spiders which didn't. That are numbers which don't seem to add up considering the time.

[@transformersrevenge9]

I have a theory. So a lot of people criticized the fact that a first year Spiderman like Miles, went up against hundreds of Spiderman and won. Well, I think that it's because they were all following a cause, that they knew was wrong, deep down in their hearts. Miles meanwhile was incredibly driven by the pure desire to save a loved one. That's why he fought through an army of stronger people, because they weren't giving it their all. And as to why they joined Miguel. I guess a Spiderman is a solo act, but they are all smart enough to see that canon events are bad, and that multiverse has became very unstable since the collider blew up. Hence working together to avoid disaster. Not only that, but the first movie showed that while initially every Spiderman is a solo act, they secretly wish that they weren't, and they work well together if need be. Also, the shared trauma is also a good point. If I had to watch a friend die, and I knew a bunch of people had to go through that too, then I'd expect the new guys to go through the ritual too (especially when not doing it is catastrophic). And if Gwen and Miles do save their police captains, then there will be the feeling of "how come they get to have their cake and eat it too, while I had to watch my police captain die?"

[@hoopnosis-ig2dl]

a whole other hole i see in the movie is that if miles was never supposed to be spider man how could he have canon events. The peter Parker of that world already experienced these events. If miles really is the first anomaly why hasn't his world collapsed. Why does miles experience canon events if he isn't really a spider man?

[@cameronmimnagh4395]

These were all the questions I had when I walked out of the theatre. Miles himself isn’t canon, he wasn’t meant to exist as a spider man. But yet canon events are caused by him existing. Also he creates the spot, which himself is an anomaly but he also creates canon events like almost killing captain Singh and he might kill Miles’ dad. It’s confusing to say the least

[@lucasbryant7637]

Also Miles' uncle died

[@sevtas]

Yea this shit makes no sense

[@keiviroque5666]

How I interpret it atleast, is that Miguel managed to stabilize Mile’s universe and in doing so the multiverse shifted to fit in line with Mile’s inclusion. I don’t think canon events have to play out a certain specific way, but are general guidelines for a Spider-Man story. I think a possible answer for canon events in the future movies is the idea of the multiverse shifting and changing to fit altered events. Like what we see with Gwen’s dad at the end of the movie.

[@kongolandwalker]

Not Miles creates the Spot, but that evil Miles Crawler. Look at hair. Spot is mistaken, he doesn't notice the difference between Miles's. One good guy lower in the comments explained already that I'm wrong.

[@pausei1449]

@@sevtas Yeah no shit, it's almost like this movie doesn't want you to pick apart its rules to the minute detail and miss the whole point in the process. The point is, Miles and Miguel both have valid reasons for their choices, which makes their conflict interesting. Saying one party is completely right another completely wrong dumbs down the conflict and would make for a worse movie. Which is why I believe these plot holes are just nitpicks and not the writers trying to do clever foreshadowing.

[@EclipsedVision]

IMO it's because Hobie is right, miguel is holding up this conformist spider society without fully understanding every element of it, he doesn't know why that one universe collapsed but given that he knew he wasn't meant to be there he assumed it was his fault, and thus began holding so called "cannon events" as some unchangeable standard for all spider folks across dimensions, the entire point of spiderman is "anyone could be behind the mask" it would make no sense for miguel to be correct in saying all spiders must be the same. Hobie's just ahead of the game and when he sees miles and his determination he sees miles' potential and realizes he could be the catalyst for the necessary change to free spider society and shine light on the fact that not everyone is the same and that's how it should be. (that's just my headcannon though, can't wait until SV3!!)

[@theotherpen15]

It's also STRONGLY hinted at the Miguel, at least in movie universe, may not even be a spiderman variant but more likely a prowler variant. The claws, teeth, hints of a cape, non of the typical spider man powers or webbing and of course the big personality differences between any of the other spiders and Miguel

[@XWierdThingsHappenX]

​​@@theotherpen15Miles himself asks if he even is a Spiderman. Peter tells him they are supposed to be funny. That spidermen are funny so why isnt he? There is somthing very wrong with Miguel.

[@theotherpen15]

@@XWierdThingsHappenX FOR SURE Or at the very least he's lying about his origin. Even if lie by omission.

[@Mendoxs_]

​@@XWierdThingsHappenX yeah I've heard that in the comics his backstory is very different from most spiders. My theory atm is Miguel fucked up when he replaced himself in another universe so he blamed it on the canon event thing to cope. But he HAS to know he isn't right, he's a living contradiction of it; His backstory isn't like the other spiders yet his home universe remains intact. He knows the whole thing is bs and hates Miles for being another example proving him wrong.

[@somedudewithakeyboard5388]

There have been a few things about this that I thought coming out of the theatres A: Miguel dying was a canon event for that Universe's Spider-Person, maybe the Miguel that died was the "Uncle" or the "Captain" that was supposed to be lost, and him stepping in stopped that event from happening B: Miguel's blatantly obvious depression led him to trying to find any justification possible for what happened, and he based his reasoning on seemingly ubiquitous occurrences C: Miguel is lying to everyone else about Canon events, which in my opinion would be the least satisfying of the bunch D: Miguel believes himself to be correct, but is actually incorrect, and simply hasn't seen cases like the ORIGINAL origin story for Spiderman 2099, Ben Riley, etc E: Miguel is RIGHT, but Miles' nature as an anomalous Spider-Person means his actions don't disrupt Canon events. Think of his life not as a part of the web, but the weaving of an entirely new one due to the fact that he shouldn't actually exist as a Spider-Person to begin with

[@Inversedpi]

I think it's actually an incursion

[@kruci6091]

I like the last two

[@GongGing-no9qh]

E 🤔

[@PeptoAbismol]

really making me think with E. I do want to point out how, despite being anomalous in nature, he still gets the Spider-Man origin story treatment. the canon still treats him like he's another Spider-Man, giving him the same Uncle Ben backstory in the form of Uncle Aaron. the villain of this movie was created through Miles' actions, and because of that, is his sole responsibility, which responsibility is one of the core aspects of being Spider-Man. despite the fact the spider was from a completely different universe and it wasn't supposed to bite Miles, it's still treated as canon. wouldn't an incursion have occurred if he really was a mistake?

[@somedudewithakeyboard5388]

@@PeptoAbismol And to raise you another question, why didn't Earth 42 begin falling apart when it no longer had a Spider-Man? If there needs to be a Spider-Person in every universe, then Earth 42 continuing to exist is an entire anomalous UNIVERSE

[@zandraxofnebulon]

I'm like 900% sure that this contradiction is not only intentional but will be the driving force behind beyond the spider verse's story. This story REALLY feels like it's driving towards a conclusion of "you CAN be in control of your own destiny" and it would make so much sense if miles was able to prove miguel WRONG about the canon, and show him that he CAN change the world.

[@Lonewulf321]

Yes, absolutely

[@Lonewulf321]

I wouldn’t even call it a plothole, Miles even calls out that this might not even be true

[@dannycondeii]

Damnnn….. “Nah, imma do me”

[@mandolorian9893]

No, I think Miles will have to make some sort of sacrifice. It might be a Batman situation where the Joker strapped a bomb to his GF and to Harvey Dent and forced him to choose one indirectly creating two-face. If I had to bet he would have to choose between Gwen and his dad and in making his choice he will probably lose his mom.

[@Lonewulf321]

@@mandolorian9893 I hope not that’s so cliche and boring

[@musicpeaceandbacon13]

What I took from this plot hole is that Miguel is acting out of trauma, and the other spiders following him are reacting out of that shared trauma. They believe that every spider needs to have things taken from them in order to be their best self. Unlike miles, who is new to this and still maintains an optimistic view about being spiderman, the older spiders believe that this is just how it goes, and since they were traumatized, every spider must be. Meanwhile, Miles still maintains that he can have it both ways-and maybe he’s right. But Miguel and Jess are determined to prove him wrong because if he’s right, then all of their work to maintain the “canon” was for nothing. I think that’s why Gwen realized Miles was right when her father quit being captain, because she subverted the canon accidentally and nothing bad happened. I also headcanon that Miguel used Miles as an example after the events of the last movie. Miles changed his fate unknowingly, which is why the universe adjusted without destroying itself. However, Miguel saw this and set off on a determined path to change his fate, ultimately breaking the very universe he was trying to camouflage in. The key difference is their intentions. I think that’s why he’s so pissed about Miles being an anomaly-if he could do it, why couldn’t he? I’m so in love with this movie. I really hope we get to see more of Miguel’s motivations in btsv in March.

[@saggyai5410]

such a good way of interpreting this nice!

[@kaiinuru]

the thing about miguel and the other spideys acting out of trauma is actually very eye opening!

[@TheJoviLovi]

Ok

[@youravghuman5231]

So the simplest explanation is miguel is a dickhead and messed up a universe and simply shifted his blame to miles because he's an anomaly therefore he could cover up his mistake.

[@omeganeox]

agreed, kinda feel bad for miguel too. hope he winds up helping miles and the others be happy by sacrificing his own happyness or maybe he even ends up happy too

[@HannahBananabreadpudding]

This is something that’s been bothering me since I got out of the theater. So we know that Miles is an anomaly. He wasn’t supposed to be Spider-Man according to Miguel. So my question is, why would something that’s not cannon (Mile’s dad surviving) negatively affect (his universe falling apart) a not cannon character? Because the whole thing is that Miguel doesn’t want Miles to save his dad bc it could disrupt or destroy his universe because it’s not a cannon event. But miles himself isn’t cannon. So why would his dad not dying have any impact on his story. He already has the powers and experience. It wouldn’t make any sense for his dad to die anyway. So either Miguel is lying (highly plausible), Miguel somehow overlooked that (I doubt it), or there’s something else going on that I didn’t think of.

[@astrophysicsperson528]

And if it is his canon event, isn't it important that he's THERE for it? Isn't that part of the point of a canon event? Wouldn't Spiderman not being there for Uncle Ben's or Captain Stacy's death also count as a canon disruption?

[@ceshmate1953]

Miguel does say, if you save 'enough' captains. One cut string will not unravel the entire web.

[@KatR264]

I literally posted this under a different video before seeing you say it - we must be meant to see it, at least at some level.

[@paulovitorsouzanunes4854]

Besides, even if it would make sense, the whole "uncle ben has to die" thing is supposed to be the cathalyst for Spiderman, the thing that shapes him into becoming a hero, but if miles dad died, while he knew that it was just the other spidermens fault, it wouldnt mold him into a hero, it would only build him with anger and remorse

[@superjlk_9538]

Miguel is wrong about something. I have some theories but I’m just waiting for the next movie to come out and confirm that he’s wrong. He has to be for the movie to keep going.

[@problempal5395]

I definitely think that, just from a thematic standpoint, that the idea of cannon events is going to be revealed to be false, and I definitely think the movie is trying to clue us into that direction. If we look at the cannon events shown to us in the movie, one of them is very clearly shown to be the spider bite, and at the end of the movie which characters do we see go after Miles? Spider-man 2099, Spider-woman, and Scarlet Spider; a DNA splicing accident, a woman of unknown origin, and a clone of peter. None of these characters got bitten and I don't think that's on accident.

[@KyleKringle]

Oooh, now that's intriguing. I knew Ben was a clone but didn't realize Jess was also abnormal... That's a great point, and I hope it's the wind up to a great breakdown

[@hauntedwafle]

Also the fact that the TVA is like the exact same thing as the Spider-Society and they were proven false so that makes it even more unlikely that he’s right

[@geek.m0nst3r]

Spiderman India also didn’t get his powers from a spider bite, he got it from an ancient yogi that granted him spider powers

[@yourmother5810]

They must think that getting spider powers is the canon event and not getting bit by an actual spider, because there is no way they just missed that lol. Cool prediction it makes sense.

[@myweirdsecondchannelwithap9070]

yeah, honestly I don't think the movie will be able to hold up if they don't establish "fuck the canon, miles is an anomaly he has no canon".

[@AndroidHarris]

Miguel definitely gave me the vibe that he was hiding something whether that be hes lying or mistaken or maybe just a belief that having a set canon for every spiderman is what is needed.

[@dutch_asocialite]

That's essentially my two positions in their basic forms. Pretty much, the way I see the story playing out, Miguel is going to have to be proven wrong for everything to be satisfyingly resolved should Miles' save his father, and when that happens Miguel will either be redeemed or revealed to be an impostor. My reasoning for both is as follows: 1. Gwen's father quitting as police captain technically fulfils her canon event of that scenario, effectively proving Miguel, though not totally wrong, was too dogmatic and fixated on a small pool of results. B. Miguel is actually an impostor, he orchestrates canon disruptions (for instance, in Mumbattan the void that appeared was centred on the remains of the Particle Collider Spot tampered with; presumably, he can replicate this anywhere, anytime) and the Spider-Society was formed with an ulterior motive in mind. This in particular came about because neither Miguel nor the Spider-Society felt exactly genuine to me and there's a small theory stating Miguel as Morlun the vampire, forming the Society to feed on their Spider-Totems; I don't buy it, but the broadstrokes make sense. Most of all, though, there's the Spider-Man Pointing Meme. While ostensibly just a silly little joke, the concept of the meme is of a Spider-Man pointing and attempting to expose a possible impostor. Someone I discussed my theories with brought this up and stated how it's possible this is narrative foreshadowing. Through Occam's Razor, point 1 is more likely because it's simpler, but point B is _more interesting_ Either way, we'll find out in 9 months.

[@AndroidHarris]

@@dutch_asocialite I like your scenarios I think it could easily be each one of those depending on how they go however I think the story will focus more on miles being an anomaly in my opinion. The fact that his entire existence is against the canon means he's the key to all of this. A protagonist not like the others. He might not even have to follow the canon or be the key to break free from its grip. If miguel is 100% right even about miles being a danger then he needs to either take away miles powers or kill him. He cannot exist basically. This is why I think that miguel has to be hiding something about the canon or at least misunderstanding something about miles or what he already knows. The story could go anyway. I think story B is at least true in some regard with all this setup I don't think scenario 1 is as likely anymore, if it was just one movie then sure story 1 couldve been wrapped up maybe another 30 minutes but this movie sets a lot up for the next so it can be complicated. I'm hyped regardless of how it'll end.

[@lucasfontana6390]

I feel that more than "hiding" is that he is afraid. Like saying "you can pull a bit of the cannon. But I don't know how much it is and I'm afraid of being wrong"

[@applesyo]

@@dutch_asocialitethe vampire thing makes sense, it could set up another trilogy. Also his intro scene where he was transforming and said “not now”

[@mechigo6468]

@@applesyoI don’t think they’d do that because that’s not what happens in the comics to my recollection and in my opinion it wouldn’t be the best interpretation of the character

[@multiplemysteries5242]

As other people in the comments have said, I think it's as simple as Miguel's theory just being flat out incorrect. I don't think he's trying to mislead anyone, it's just that he's wrong and doesn't realize it. I'm sure that in the next movie this is, and other things in relation to this issue, are going to be given explanations.

[@hanadashi3910]

There's big likely chance he is wrong, only example we had was his own experience replacing the universe's version of miguel Maybe in his eyes, it does make sense. He continued a life that should've been over in that timeline's chain of events, thus disrupting everything else. He felt strong guilt doing that but he continued because now he has a family. And the next thing he remembers is how the world crumbled and people getting Thanosed. boy got gains from his trauma and felt the responsibility to make up a theory so he can atone for his wrongs Something abt an unreliable narrator, that's the role he's playing as in this story. Also being an animal and chasing a 15 year old across the city on all fours, but yea

[@multiplemysteries5242]

@@hanadashi3910 Well put. I fully agree.

[@CharlieQuartz]

@@hanadashi3910His isn’t the only example we have. He mentions several other instances where canon events caused collapse and “some were lucky, others not so much.” That includes the event in Mumbattan. He’s seen this correlation play out plenty of times to justify a theory.

[@FigurativeCritter]

​@@CharlieQuartz true enough. But I think there's definitely more to it all than Miguel realizes. The truth is he doesn't actually know for sure what does or doesn't trigger a collapse. None of us do at this point. The problem is that while there is evidence to support his theory, there is also evidence to directly counter it. Yet he refuses to continue research and acts as though he's finally solved it all, no ifs, ands, or buts abouts it. He's definitely a really interesting and complex character.

[@LewsTherinTelescope]

I think it boils down to the subtext of his exchange with Gwen: he _doesn't_ know for sure, but given the stakes he's not willing to risk assuming he's wrong either, so he's clinging to his clearly flawed understanding of things because it's better than having _no_ idea.

[@spliter88]

I suspect what's going to turn out is that you can distrupt your own canon events without it breaking the world. The spider society seems pretty prepared for fixing canon event breaks, so my guess is they have seen at least some of those before (IIRC someone even says they can't always save them). They specifically hunt for anomalies as the culprits which again, makes me think they pinned anomalies as the likely cause. However in all canon breaking events we see broken it was because someone outside of that universe intervened. In the case of mumbattan it was miles interfering with Pavitr's canon event. In the case of Miguel's universe breaking was because he was the being from another universe interfering. In the one case where we see someone break their own canon event nothing happens (ie: Gwen, talking to her father causing him to quit the police force) So I think that's the key: only you can change your own story. This would not only explain how Miguel can be both right and wrong at the same time, but it would also fit perfectly with Miles' character growth of making his own story.

[@mindless2266]

Awesome theory my man

[@luisrogelio98]

I love this theory

[@Khazuldar]

But then the spider that but miles still wouldn’t line up, because it disrupted the canon of another universe by biting miles.

[@Scoofy.]

@@KhazuldarBut the Spot was from Miles’ universe and it was the Spot that brought 42’s spider to 1610 so if causing and breaking Canon do cancel it out like Kyle Kringle said wouldnt it still work out?

[@Bliss-l1t]

Technically Tom Holland's Peter canon event got broken by Andrew Peter when he caught MJ. He had his Aunt May die but his gf was close to dying as well. Miguel is lying hands down.

[@ScribeAwoken]

I was initially in the "Miguel isn't lying, he just came to a dangerously wrong conclusion" camp but then I realized something. First, if Miguel is anything like his counterpart in the comics, his backstory doesn't remotely resemble the standard sequence canon events. No spider bite, no Uncle Ben, no Captain Stacy. Second, we've already seen a Spider-Person who we can infer hews pretty close to a counterpart from the comics that doesn't follow the standard canon events, and who Miguel is clearly willing to rely on in a dire situation. Ben Reilly. Now, both of those are odd cases, because their existence *does* rely on their universe having had a Spider-Man before them - as inspiration for Miguel and as genetic material for Ben to have been cloned from. But Miguel *has* to know that the canon events hypothesis doesn't apply to every Spider-Person. We also have hints that Miguel is at a point in his character arc where he's still addicted to Rapture, and thus is likely still being heavily manipulated by his universe's Alchemax.

[@jedimasterpickle3]

Could you elaborate on those points? I'm completely unfamiliar with any sort of Spider-Man comic. The only alternate Spider-person I knew existed before these movies was Miles. What is Miguel's comic book backstory? Who's Ben Reilly?

[@ScribeAwoken]

@@jedimasterpickle3 Ben Reilly is Scarlet Spider. He's a clone of Peter Parker who briefly tried to replace him as Spider-Man in the comics Miguel O'Hara is from a future timeline where superheroes are long gone, and he's trying to bring about a new age of heroes via gene splicing. After his first test on a human subject failed and killed the test subject, he tried to quit his job at Alchemax, only for his boss to try to force him to stay by giving him a drink spiked with a highly addictive drug called Rapture that binds itself with the user's DNA and which only Alchemax manufactured. Miguel then tried to cure himself by subjecting himself to the procedure he created, only for his immediate supervisor to sabotage the process. This sabotage is ironically what led to Miguel becoming Spider-Man

[@jedimasterpickle3]

@@ScribeAwoken I see. Thank you.

[@Quasarii]

and after he transformed to spiderman he did not get the spider canon plot? is that what you are saying? is this why he also doesn't have spider sense?

[@ScribeAwoken]

@@Quasarii yeah, Miguel doesn't have any equivalents to Uncle Ben's death, accidentally killing Gwen Stacy, befriending a police captain only for him to die, etc. Ben doesn't really have equivalents either - hell, some later major character deaths are actually averted in the timeline where Ben Reilly fully replaced Peter as Spider-Man

[@adude8841]

I think with the existence of Mayday being born, since she was born due to Miles' influence, and Gwen's father resigning, I don't think this is something that was overlooked. There is definitely more to the "canon" that will be revealed in BTSV. I can't imagine the detail put into the first two movies, just for the whole point the plot was based around, to just get completely ignored like this. To kind of follow along with what others have said in the comments, I think Miguel is hiding in his past, and seeing anyone else succeed where he failed would make his sacrifices and losses preventable, and he can't accept that he just wasn't strong enough to prevent them. Edit : After thinking about it more, I actually think miles doesn't have a canon. Kind of a stretch, but during the teacher interview they say that he needs to make his story, kind of hinting he doesn't have a canon. Which kind of fits when Miguel tells him he wasn't supposed to be spiderman, so it'd make sense he doesn't. So when Miles does anything, or anything Miles influences, automatically becomes his "canon," therefore becoming canon for everyone else.

[@e443productions9]

Exactly

[@glitchmonster9440]

He just cannot stand being wrong

[@untitledproductions644]

Also a CANON event (captain Singh’s death) was almost caused by an “anomaly”? That doesn’t make any sense

[@LoerisOtter]

​Captain's Stacy's death also was almost caused by an anomaly(Vulture from another universe) So we have 2 "canon" events, that were triggered by beings from another universe

[@skiddy529]

​@@LoerisOtter and that's not counting any canon events part of Miles' Spider-Man story, who HIMSELF is an anomaly

[@ChaosqueenMaddy]

Ive seen this pointed out a few times, but the three spiders that chase Miles (Jess, Miguel and Ben) were never bitten by a spider. They didn't have that regular story. Miguel and Jess were genetically enhanced and Ben was a clone of Peter Also, Lord and Miller have said that the movie is a sort of meta commentary on Spidey fans valiantly defending "the canon" when a minor event is changed by a comic writer. Miguel is supposed to be a comic fan who doesnt let anything change and him calling Miles an anomaly was a commentary on how people still, after 10 years, genuinely refuse to call Miles Spider-Man. That's why I think the contradiction of canon events was intentional

[@USSMariner]

Justified shitty writing is still shitty writing.

[@naterosenthal1019]

Oh shit that’s a great point

[@coltonk.3086]

That's hilarious

[@VictoriaVoy]

If I'm not mistaken, Pavitr also was not bitten, he was gifted powers by an ancient yogi.

[@ChaosqueenMaddy]

@@VictoriaVoy Oh shit yeah forgot abt that

[@AnnieMay_1114]

I think you noticed exactly what was intended!! From the last moment of my first viewing, I didn't trust Miguel. And on my second viewing I noticed A LOT about the way Miguel acts. Yeah, he NEVER explains how his actions actually led to the collapse of that world. But he also NEVER mentions his OWN canon events. We see tons of spiderman canon events, and NONE of them are Miguels. In all cases he is being untruthful. He is either hiding a lack of his own, or purposefully not showing them. Shifty AF. And on top of that, prior to the halfway point, everyone trusts Miguel. Gwen trusts him, Peter B. is his friend. They both introduce Miles to him with hesitancy but Peter is light about it, and later is horrified to see how violent Miguel is towards the kid. Im willing to bet thats the first time anyone has seen Miguel HATE someone. And why? Why does he hate Miles? A child who had literally nothing to do with what happened to him. He was bit before he knew jack about the collider, he didnt get in OG Peter's way and cause him to die, if he hadn't been there to stop Kingpin it's entirely likely that things would have been much worse. Miles isnt at fault for any of this, let alone how it affects things (if it even does). So why does Miguel hate him? I think it because Miguel wanted what Miles got. I dont think Miguel is a Spider-Man. I think Miguel did something to the canon. I think Miguel fucked things up and that Miles is proof of that. Because Miles' world if fine, world 42 is fine(ish), the canon rewrote itself (miles has a loving supportive family, he gets along with the police chief, he's not seen as a menace by the cops or the people, yada yada). And if Miles can be disrupting the story like that, it proves that whatever Miguel did to unravel a whole world was much, much worse than replacing some guy who gets shot (obvs Spider-Man wouldn't have been shot so the Miguel in that world must've just been some dude). And again, I dont think Miguel is a Spider-Man, he doesnt have a spider sense, he's not sticky, we have no proof that he's got canon events, and he's the only one with fangs....he's even gotta re-up the Spider-Man-ness. I dont trust him, not even a little. I think he's lying, to everyone, maybe even himself.

[@dhimaanprasad5469]

I agree! And if you see the way Miguel shoots his "webs" on the train to the moon, they're from the other side of his wrists, past the knuckles, unlike the usual spideys do. And they're red and glowy. At first, I thought that was a cool way to sling your webs and the red-ness matches his overall suit, but reading your comment, it really builds into Miguel not being an actual spider-man. But what's confusing to me is that Miguel said he searched through different universes to find one where he has a family. He decides to go and live there in place of his dimensional self which supposedly destroys that universe as that "was not canon". So, he created the spider society to fix the canon in other universes. Now my question is, before this event, he could never have come to the conclusion that breaking the canon destroys a universe, so was he just seeing through different universes for fun? Did he just have that kind of equipment to travel between them, for fun? And we saw Miguel and Peter B. fighting together in that universe, and i wonder how they were friends. This just makes me think that there was some kind of spider society before his agenda to control canon mishaps, but what do you think? PS: I have never before in my 18 years of age replied to any youtube comment but I HAD to reply to this one. Love your theory!

[@DeadKraken]

I agree with everything BESIDE Miguel lying on purpose, lemme explain: His DNA was spliced with a spider, this is why he lacks some of the powers other spiderpeople have, but shoots bio webs, has paralyzing venom+fangs and talons. In the comics he was an Alchemax scientist addicted to a powerful drug called Rapture, that is probably what he injects himself in the movie, and had different canon events(yes he never had an uncle Ben figure if I well remember) which is what makes his utter conviction that there are standard canon events strange. Until you remember the way he lost his daughter in the AU. That is probably why he's absolutely convinced that canon events are so important to keep the fabric of each universe healthy and connected. Gabriella(his daughter) was meant to be orphaned, and Miguel was never meant to intervene, pretend to be her dead father and actually live with her for at least an entire year, this is probably where the idea of canon events being a thing and being necessary comes from. He's severely traumatized, he's obviously full of rage and frustration, and this whole Spiderverse thing was born the moment the Collider pierced Miles' universe and threw a bunch of people inside it in the first movie, so he blames Miles for literally everything that happened to him, other worlds and the entirety of the Spider-society. He kept his composure with literally anyone else that fucked up real bad, like Gwen, but he cannot accept whom he pinpoints as the source of his pain, not listening to him or fucking up more things. This is why he ends up beating the shit out of a teenager and behaving like a crazed animal. The canon events are probably bullshit, it will probably turn out that there is a workaround to not cause an universal collapse, but I think Miguel cannot even began to contemplate that he could have done something to save his daughter, because that will definitely break him.

[@astrophysicsperson528]

Miguel claiming that Miles is the reason his Peter died felt like an emotional jab without any reason behind it. There's no way that Miguel could know for sure that Peter was destined to die with Miles present or not. His claims about canon and about Miles are all born from grief not reasoning. After all, canon events conveniently absolve all the Spiderpeople of their guilt about their failures. If the fact they failed someone is a canon event, then it's okay that they failed. There's no universe where they wouldn't.

[@DeadKraken]

@@astrophysicsperson528 Exactly what I thought too. I don't think he's consciously lying or that he's doing it on purpose, but his logic and reason are obfuscated by grief and guilt, and from the way he behaves in the movie he's on the verge of a mental breakdown. "Just a canon event" is a very convenient explanation for every fuck up, that doesn't make you think you had 100% of the responsibility or that even worse, you could have done something to avoid the collapse.

[@yourlocaldisappointment9362]

i think he thought he was right at first, realized he was wrong at some point, but kept the truth hidden by his lack of other reasoning. he was simply too scared to think about the fact that he could have done something to save his daughter, and that some of things are his fault.

[@markc8329]

The thing about Mumbattan's black hole is that for all we know it was a result of Spot's interference with that dimension and NOT the act of Miles saving the captain. Similarly, it can be revealed that something ELSE happened in the universe that Miguel inserted himself into, and he mistakenly thought it was his own actions/presence that caused it. Therefore, it is not the Spider-people that are causing these universes to rupture but rather something else and there is no consequences for Spider-people simply trying to do right thing like they always do.

[@kritichaplot5025]

I like this theory. It redeems both Miguel and Miles for each other. It's the best case scenario

[@nora-yc6fi]

That was my thought too, the entire town of Mumbattan falling into a black void? Seems like sumn this super charged spot should be able to do Guess we'll have to wait and see tho

[@couldntthinkofaname360]

It could’ve easily been another king pin figure trying to hop dimensions (I don’t get why the first king pin thought whatever version of King pin in that universe wouldn’t retaliate after he succeeds in stealing that universes version of his wife and child)

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Hey did India take over the Earth in that universe & caused a massive genocide? I didn't see any Europeans, native Americans, Africans, pacific islanders, Latinos, middle eastern or Orientals in thier version of NYC.

[@SuryaGupta-te7fq]

I actually think Miguel is telling the truth. The more I think about it, there's no other plot reason for prowler miles to exist other than to show miles that he's the exact same by wanting to change the timeline. At some point in the film he will find evidence his universe will crumble, and he will have to sacrifice his dad for the greater good in true spider-man fashion. I also think this has a good chance of happening becuase if it does it will be extremely interesting how every Spider-man trilogy will end with spider-man losing someone close to him for the greater good, whether that's harry for Tobey, MJ for Holland or his father for Miles

[@ominously2574]

Since Miguel saw his own ‘daughter’ disappear right in his arms, like any human would, he was trying to find the answer to why. His first thought was probably because he replaced the Miguel in this universe and made up ‘canon event’ during the pain and suffering of losing his ‘daughter’ Another theory is that the gizmo watch Miguel used may have caused the alternate universe to collapse as it was still in the early testing phases and may have bugged out I believe that the world he replaced collapsing has something to do with a mix of canon events, balance of the universe and some unknown power/entity like spot. Or someone messed up with a supercollider and the world glitched away

[@dradencake3199]

Spiderpeople don't get just 1 canon event, the movie makes it clear they all hit the events at some point in their lives. Every spider man: A) is bit by a spider B) loses their uncle C) loses a Captian they are close too D) gets a Venom & Etc... This is proven when Miles looks around and is like "so this happened to you?" Towards Peter B. who we know ALSO had his Uncle Ben die.

[@Alex-xv2pb]

@@dradencake3199 does the tobey maguire spiderman lose a captain he is close to?

[@dradencake3199]

@@Alex-xv2pb I don't think we see it in the those movies, but again it's the notion that everyone eventually goes through their own version of those plot points. Us not seeing Remi-Spidey lose a captain or Gwen doesn't contradict what Spiderverse is pitching.

[@laytonjr6601]

Miles lost his uncle. In the same universe, there was a Spider-Man before that who also lost his uncle.

[@KyleKringle]

In a way, Miles lost two Uncle Bens, since 1610 Peter Parker was the death that motivated him to don the mask/responsibility. Uncle Aaron died for Jeff to let go of Miles' spark and let him be great in whatever way he willed (also motivation to get Kingpin)

[@nicholasmeyers5004]

I definitely think that it is intentionally left open-ended as an inconsistency. When miles disrupts Pavitr’s canon event, the destruction of the universe as described and shown by Miguel isn’t present. In fact, the giant dark matter hole that appears is even pointed out by Miles as Spot’s doing. But yeah, I’ve been thinking a lot about this and I’m glad other people have been too.

[@DeathsAvarice]

yeah this, I want to see how they go about this in the next movie.

[@Zavaroc]

I agree, it is just too obvious for all this to be overlooked by the directors, also if these events really needed to happen, it would imply some form of pre-determined fate for all universes, which would then mean that Miles can not win. Also, as said in the video, other Universes should have collapsed in that case

[@TheEpicGalaxy21]

Actually, I'm pretty sure there WAS some glitching shown in Pavitr's universe alongside the Spot's giant hole. So I think there ARE certain rules on what sort of multiversal interference can be done, but at the moment, no one (in this movie) know what they are. Miguel is working with a dataset of ONE, and is making this Canon Event theory out of it. That plus the trauma of losing your loved ones and not being allowed to have them back makes them too scared to risk trying anything different. Even IF their current theory about Canon Events are wrong, the risks are too big for them to test that.

[@kinoman4875]

@@TheEpicGalaxy21 yeah i think some people who accuse miguel of not trying to find another solution rly missed the point about why he doesn’t. The consequence of failure isn’t just some people dying, it’s everyone in a universe dissappearing the lives of trillions or even more being lost is not something anyone wants to gamble on.

[@filopsofos]

Like the rest of the comments have already said, I think that this all was intentional and that the writers wanted us to go go "wait a minute" and find the "plothole." It's not the movie that has a plothole, it is miguels story that has one. Although that is out of the way some would argue that Miles is still a bad spider-man as he cares only about saving his dad and not the multiverse, but he really did show that he kind of understood how wrong Miguel was. Like on the scene where the canon events were explained and he said "so we are just supposed to let people die just because some algorithm said so?" Someone would call this bad writing and that the movie just has a massive plothole but you would have to try SO hard to make something like this, it really feels intentional and the writers most likely wanted us to piece all the hints together, and in the last movie unravel it all. Otherwise, if this really is all a big coincidence and the writers were by miracle just bad, it's going to be disappointing. I am 100% certain it won't be like that tho.

[@filopsofos]

@@boyishdude1234 Yeah you are right, which further proves that this isn't a story-writing fault, but an actual part of the story line.

[@eggploont277]

an important thing to note with Mumbattan's universe "collapsing" is it doesn't look at all like how Miguel's flashback showed it, but interestingly looks a lot like The Spot's doing. I'm thinking it's starting collapse could be the cause of so much dark matter being infused into The Spot

[@micahself2283]

I thought about this too. assuming Miguel is correct that disrupting canon events leads to universe collapse, it asks another question for me: does disrupting a canon event just destabilize and disintegrate a universe like it appears to do in Miguels flashback, or does it allow an opening for the arch nemesis to win, ie the captain being saved somehow cosmically allowed Spot to cause a universe ending event in Mumbattan. If the second is true then Miguel is probably more right than I've given credit, but its tough to tell for me since we get sooooo little context from Miguel's story.

[@wildhuntthree6322]

It reminds me of the episode of What if. I don’t remember the details exactly but the destabilising of that world look like Pavitr’s world

[@Rav0ria]

This could be handwaved as "the universes have different artstyles". Ya it's super weird, and the story kinda requires the given explanation to be correct. BUT there's a whole squad showing up with tripods. That feels like they have way more evidence we weren't shown.

[@echo2551]

If you wanna get really deep with it you could say that it was all meant to happen that way because of destiny. Like the spot wouldn’t exist if not for Miles there for it’s still Miles’ fault in some sort of way. Butterfly effect

[@donny30dirty]

If the whole universe collapsed and killed everyone from Mumbattan then how come Pavitr is still alive

[@Jrwolvie]

I had a discussion with my brother about this and the conclusion we came to is that Miguel is lying to everyone because he doesn’t want to find out the cold reality that if miles or someone else breaks the canon of someone important to them dying and it doesn’t destroy that universe/multiverse, that maybe just maybe if he tried hard enough he could’ve saved his daughter. So he keeps this act going, he tells everyone, because he’s afraid of the truth. That his daughter didn’t have to die

[@Jiub_SN]

That means he isn't lying to everyone else, he's only lying to himself

[@buttersticks7877]

this is my theory too!! i think it has great potential for some super poignant storytelling and is incredibly emotionally complex. I'm excited to see if we're right in march!

[@tagnenjosephs3124]

From what i gathered, he would be able to change the event of his daughter dying. In ITSV we are told that Gwen was sent back into the past when the collider incident happened. Which shows that the collider or perhaps the watch, at some point if they perfected the tech, could send them to another universe and different time in that universe.

[@ISetYourFaceOnFire]

This is head canon fr.

[@kagato23]

The problem is when miles broken Canon Event things really did start going wonky. People keep saying “where is the evidence“ but we kind of have some? And the fact spider people showed up with equipment to address. It means they’ve seen this particular kind of instability before. there might be a solution they don’t realize, but right now what points to Miguel being at least partially right.

[@Naz-jc5tp]

These are the exact questions I had when I watched it as well. I literally racked my brain thinking “why can’t the universe just adapt/correct itself when a canon event doesn’t happen? It makes way more sense for it to be this unavoidable trauma inducing force of nature just like they play it up as originally.

[@ma.2089]

We have literal proof it can correct itself since in the 1st movie, despite the spider never being meant to bite Miles, Miles undergoes canon events. And during the moment where their spider senses go off next to each other, Miles’ colors are green and purple (Prowler) and then changes to red and blue (Spider-Man). Our Miles was meant to become the Prowler and the other Miles was meant to become Spider-Man, but their destinies switched. So I believe they underwent each other’s canon events.

[@galileodirectio]

​@@ma.2089I think the colors mark our miles becoming spiderman and 42 becoming prawler but this also works

[@keemian]

@@ma.2089 i seriously doubt the colors mean anything i'm not sure why people associate it with prowler

[@Cerberus1441]

One thing that's potentially an even bigger problem is that Miguel mentions Earth-199999 and how in No Way Home, Dr. Strange does his spell that screws with the stability of that entire universe and the spider-men closest to it, thus bringing in Tobey and Andrew's spider-men to the MCU. That means those 3 universes are also part of the larger Spider-verse. Tobey's Spider-man is in his 40s, meaning that there was plenty of time, years even, from when he first put on the suit for his canon events to occur. Even MORE damning, though, is Tom Holland's Spider-man, who was SNAPed away for 5 years. That Spiderman was entirely gone until miracle of science, time travel, and literal cosmic magic brought him back and we never saw any Captain or Gwen Stacy in his universe. Clearly, if those universes are connected to the larger Spider-verse, and therefore subject to the mechanics of canon events, then there is a LOT of lee-way time-wise for a canon event that is potentially missed to be made up for later. Miguel knows this, he's seen the records of No Way Home. So why is he, and every other Spider-man in his little city of such heroes, so insistent that Miles not be allowed to go back home? I can only give so much leniency to an entire legion of very intelligent, very heroic people for missing such an obvious problem and they exceed it in this movie by several orders of magnitude.

[@tronarclight2976]

Don't forget the fact that all 3 spideys change the fates of numerous villains from their respective universes and then they got sent back, which either changed the course of the timelines of the respective universes or created all new timelines, all new universes. Either way, the events of No Way Home DRASTICALLY altered the multiverse, and NOTHING has happened, to whereas you said, Miguel mentions Earth-199999.

[@tronarclight2976]

To answer your question on why the Society is so in line with Miguel; it's that Miguel has played on all of the spideys guilt and fear to keep them in line. He is making ALL of the spideys be motivated by guilt, loss, and fear, not heroism, which makes them believe in whatever Miguel says. All of the spideys there are dumb because it is what Miguel wants them to be, because it's for the "Greater Good."

[@LoreCatan]

I'm not completely sure, but imo I think that the "model" for the canon events is slightly different for every spiderman. For Miles his dad is supposed to die after he's sworn in, for Gwen her dad has been captain for years, their models of the canon are very different, but (supposedly) their deaths are still supposed to happen (until the end of the movie where that's proven to be wrong). So I personally think Tom Holland's Peter Parker's model is closer to Peter B. Parker's, he doesn't have a Gwen Stacy (as far as we know), he has an MJ that he was with briefly, and then broke up with due to extenuating circumstances. MCU Peter also had an "Uncle Ben" canon event with his Aunt May, which died in NWH (and I would count Tony Stark dying in Endgame too tbh). So honestly, the only thing he's missing is causing the death of a police captain, and that can happen at any time going forward, so I still think his canon fits the model so far. And to explain the cult-like mentality the other spider-people have, I'm gonna use a quote from The Owl House: "No one wants to think they've wasted their life following the wrong person. You just gotta find something big to change their minds." Gwen, Miles and the others are gonna find "the big thing" that'll change their minds in the next movie, I just hope it ties everything up nicely.

[@shaelynmartin1996]

@@LoreCatan You could also argue that MCU Spider-Man's "captain" moment was Tony Stark since he was the "leader" of the Avengers after Civil War thus making him a "captain." But then you've got these canon events happening out of order.

[@Cube-xm6vt]

I mean these are 2 different movies made by 2 different studios and writers. They made a quick reference, but you can't really expect them to make this other movie of a completely different series a crucial plot point. Spiderverse isn't part of the MCU.

[@Lorenzo-pw7dp]

My theory is that Peter's daughter will be the key to solve the problem of canon events. She literally wasn't supposed to exist, just like Miles being spiderman. Looking at it this way, maybe people who are "mixed universal being" can alter the cannon without disrupting it, this would also explain the Spot guy being able to alter Mumbattan's universe.

[@jamesjohnXII]

What's Mayday even gonna do though, she's like 4 months old

[@keemian]

@@jamesjohnXII she's gonna take a crap all over the establishment

[@crimsonghoul8983]

As much as that might be the case, we have seen her grow into Spider-Girl in the comics. If i remember correctly, she also saves her brother from Carnage by using a Sonic Blast, but making her brother deaf in the process. So does that mean it's still canon?

[@Lorenzo-pw7dp]

​@@crimsonghoul8983 I don’t know if they will go with the comics versions though. She might as well be just another spider-girl from another universe :/

[@XDirt_CheapX]

Is not "plot" it's "spot"

[@burkehinton5017]

I really love how deep into this you went, but given the amount of detail these people put into their movies, I doubt they overlooked something this significant. Miguel probably just doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, even if he thinks he does. This has only increased my excitement for the third one, since I already had no idea what they were gonna do to resolve the story and now I have even less of an idea.

[@Enter54623]

Haven’t fully watched the video yet so before my own head canon gets mixed with OP’s I’ll put in my little idea So Gwen revealed her identity as spider woman to the police captain she was close with before she was supposed to, if ever at all and this ended up causing him to quit the force and saved his life. Thus I think the key is for mikes to reveal his identity to his father and deal with that emotional struggle rather than let him die. Taking away the lies leads to the police captain being saved and that’s also canon

[@sidsrivastava6987]

@@Enter54623 Perhaps yeah

[@TipoIrritable]

I mean, they had 5 years.

[@chaserobinson42]

@@TipoIrritableI’m with you. 5+ years to give us this story that I’m sure will come to resolution in the third. Thers a reason why this movie left us with theses question’s because it forces us to ask how these will be resolved

[@zacheryclifton6122]

I noticed how different mumbattan and Miguel’s destructions looked. There was a black pit in mumbattan like the spot’s powers but Miguel’s was like they were turning to pixels and disappearing

[@FigurativeCritter]

I didn't notice that but you're right! And that was what bothered me about that scene as well, how do we know it was the disruption of the canon that caused that pit anomaly and not the spot's presence in the world?

[@SpideyfanX]

​@@FigurativeCritterI still think it was caused by Kingpin messing with the Collider

[@savidalu193]

@@FigurativeCritteryeah I was also really confused about that as well when I watched it again

[@baderaqw]

@@SpideyfanX That's a really good point. Maybe Kingpin's collider caused the collapse of the world Miguel was in and Spot started causing a collapse in Mumbatten. Miguel having very few dots to connect ended up coming to the conclusion that the collapses were due to canon events being disrupted. Maybe the collapses are due to the realities interfering with each other and forcing their realities on one another. Most Spider-men have very similar "canon events" but not all of them are like that in the comics.

[@jubies6286]

The chunk of the Alchemax building that falls through the bridge was also shown covered in spot-stuff from the collider exploding, and the pit is exactly where the bulding fell. 100% that disruption was caused by Spot and had nothing at all to do with Miles saving the inspector.

[@onebilliontacos3405]

My guess is that Miguel's replacement of the version of him that dies is what caused that timeline to become destroyed. The concept that a character from one universe can't fully replace another which could add even more reason to Miles meeting a version of himself from the 42 universe. Another idea is that the destruction of the universe he was in had nothing to do with "canon events" or him at all he just interpreted it as such do to his life before this and the loss of his family. My final thoughts is that the spot will somehow be responsible, but likely unintentionally feeding into the bagel effect.

[@sketchbookonline2040]

My head canon is that the dead Miguel was supposed to be the “Uncle Ben” event for a different Spider-Man 2099 in that universe and Miguel coming to take his place caused the disruption.

[@Doctorqueue]

It’s also important to mention in mumbattan, the world starts to tear where alchamax fell, which Miguel says is Pavitrs world breaking down and they’re trying to salvage it. He blames it on the disruption of the canon event, but that was the building with a COLLIDER in it, one that was just activated, blown up, and affected by a huge amount of messed up multiverse darkness after the Spot grew in power. So there’s every reason Pav’s universe is tearing, aside from the canon vent that was caused and then stifled. Miguel seems to be so disillusioned with grief and self blame he’s projecting it onto the morals of the other spider people, just look how scarred Penny looks, its theorized she had to go through some awful canon events that probably could have been prevented.

[@mr.b89]

You can read peni's comic to see what her big losses were, I'll just say there's a reason she has a new mech and that it's a neat reference to Evangelion 03 :)

[@Madman13K]

thing that I find funny here is that you literally see the building melting down into the dark stuff while it is still collapsing, long before any canon event disruption; the hole forming very much looked like a progression of something already happening. I feel like we're either supposed to immediately recognise that the collider melting down did this, or have it seem obvious in retrospect after the third film points this out.

[@GuitarSlayer136]

I mean yeah but also it's stated numerous times that they've been at this for over a year and have had it happen more than once.

[@duplexx58]

@@Madman13K i think it was Spot's portal that the building was sinking through, but it could have been the collider as well idr lol.

[@Loremaster28]

but they had tech that contained it so it has happened before without the spots involvement.

[@jacobsoliman3467]

Another thing that bugged me was the fact that Miles shouldn’t be able to change his canon event on his own, yet Miguel won’t allow him to return to his dimension to live out his dad’s death. Obviously any Spider-Man with spider senses would try to save their dad/friend, but would fail on their own, as was supposed to be the case with Pavitr. If the canon event thing is legit, Miles’ canon should be unchangeable if no other spider-people step in, and Miguel trying to trap miles seems to indicate that canon events are bs

[@freshhomemadememes8223]

Also Miles was supposed to be an anomaly so why would a canon event even apply to him if he's not supposed to be spiderman

[@Bullet_Tooth_Ronin]

@@freshhomemadememes8223 And his Uncle Aron dying wasn't a canon even evn tho it was shown alongside the other spider people? Seems like one to me, so it kinda looks like Miles has two similar canon events?

[@freshhomemadememes8223]

@@Bullet_Tooth_Ronin Feel like the uncle Aaron thing was shown to miles to show him that it was a "canon" event.

[@ZAPRST8879]

​@@freshhomemadememes8223 maybe it was the earth 42 miles if he got the bite instead of 1610 miles?

[@S31Syntax]

@@ZAPRST8879 perhaps the reason e42 or e1610 didn't both explode was because they were otherwise so similar that they swapped places? If e42 was supposed to be spiderman, then he wouldn't have become prowler... His uncle would have instead, potentially his dad wouldn't have died either.

[@reynXIII]

I have a little (or not so, idk) theory to explain this, it might be a little messy, but hear me out: I think Miguel fits the role of the unreliable narrator when it comes to the canon events and how they work. In Pav's universe, the start of the destruction of his universe wasn't triggered by the canon event being interrupted, but rather by Spot's presence, as you can clearly see with one of his holes swallowing a building. I think that the reason the universe Miguel was in collapsed was not because of a canon event not happening, but rather by someone else, be it a villain or something, that caused it, and Miguel, being an unrealible narrator, misunderstood things and how they happened, and attributed the destruction to the canon events, so he's technically not lying in the strict definition (which is an intentionally false statement), just he's saying a truth that neither him nor anyone knows it's incorrect. About the "why canon events can't happen in other times?", I think that it has to do mostly with the fact that, more than likely, when a canon event doesn't occur in the time it was supposed to, is because it got interrupted rather than avoided, and that "void" that appears from the interruption would need to be filled with something else, and that leaves the gates open for any villain to step in and fill that space with destruction. And also, in Earth 42, yes: That Miles was supposed to take the role of Spiderman, but that didn't happen, so the actual Spiderman for that universe still doesn't exist, so the canon wouldn't break, because it would wait until a new spider bites a new person and that person becomes Spiderman. All of the universes lasted years without a Spiderman being chosen, so who's to say it's not 42's time yet? When a new Spiderman _actually_ becomes Spiderman and a canon event is interrupted, that's when the problem arrises. As for the other points... Yeah, honestly, no idea.

[@calmkat9032]

I agree, but I think Miguel's universe ended because it was an "incursion", which we've seen in the MCU, which we know exists in this multiverse because of that Doctor Strange comment. Its basically the same issue as why Scarlet Witch was the villian: living in another universe causes an incursion, leading to precisely what happened to Miguel.

[@TieflingKumasi]

Wait, you just reminded me of something. The Doctor Strange comment. Miguel says not to get him started on “Doctor Strange and the nerd from Earth-199999.” So MCU Spider-Man already had his canon event? What about PS4 Spider-Man? Spectacular Spider-Man? What were their canon events? What about Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield? Andrew’s Captain Stacy died but Tobey’s didn’t. Will his Stacy have to die?

[@reynXIII]

@@calmkat9032 Oh, I get that, that makes sense. Dude, it's been a while since I saw Multiverse of Madness

[@TiberiusELP]

@@calmkat9032 yet all the spiders hang out in one area. Why is that? Miles isn’t trying to live in another universe but trying save someone life.

[@jeb123]

I mean Miguel can be wrong, but Lyla too? I thought she is a really intelligent AI, also she was speaking about a "model" that can predict canon events. I am not sure about that one.

[@idont1311]

Funny thing, in Miguel's universe, there was no uncle who was killed. Nor was there a police captain he was friends with.

[@JeremiahJordanWere]

Maybe it was kingpins collider, but at the same time peter b. Parker knows Miguel...maybe it was when they met?

[@NinjaPickle]

I think the question is left unanswered for now, but I'm 99% sure that in the next film, it will be somehow revealed that Miguel's daughter was destined to be Spiderman in the universe where he died. He was her Uncle Ben, the thing that made her Spiderman. Him never dying means she never becomes Spiderman.

[@kagato23]

Nah. I think we are just seeing some projection here. So far all the variants have followed their comics on the basics: Miguel isn’t a Spider-man like any of the others. He’s a sequel, a legacy. In his world there was a Peter Parker, active in the 90’s, and 100 years later he’s passed on. Miguel was a corporate scientist (Alchemax, same as Olivia and Spot) working to recreate the power set. It wasn’t meant for him to have, but he ended up with it cause, y’know, comics. In this he’s set apart from all the other folks there. Except Miles.

[@TheBrother34]

I like your theory even with the counterargument, as both are presuming great value of things that can be possibly used as a plot device or as a head canon.

[@espernova228]

good point

[@tha1885]

u might be right, i will remember you ninja pickle

[@RandyAura]

there was already a spider-man in that universe where miguel replaced his dead counter part though you literally see a spider-man trying to help someone then that person disappearing in his hands

[@maxcooks2963]

Just a sidenote about this movie - I’ve noticed tons of reviews, theories, and discussions (like this this one) posted to KZbin. Across the Spider-verse has got people talking more than any other movie I can remember in a long time. The passion and excitement is truly infectious, and I have never been prouder to be a Spider-Man fan!

[@KyleKringle]

I gotta give 'em credit for that, otherwise I'd still have like 83 subscribers. So thank you for engaging :D

[@akirbyobsessee7396]

It’s heartbreaking how few people bring up that we already have a major plot lead in the form of Gwen’s reconciliation with her dad. When her speech to him INSPIRES him to QUIT his job, therefore not becoming the police captain that is so integral to the web, Gwen realizes that these canon events CAN be safely evaded, and she then assembles the new group of Spiders to go help Miles out. With the existence of that plot beat, I guarantee the next movie will address that these canon events are not as harsh as Miguel states they are. (also spider ham is in this film series as a major protagonist and he doesn’t even lose anyone in his story)

[@jaimeordonez468]

The only way to safely avoid a canon event is by revealing your identity to those you love, that’s why Gwens world didn’t start to collapse

[@JeloOW]

@@jaimeordonez468 wouldnt make sense at all

[@jaimeordonez468]

@@JeloOW how so

[@RlVlN]

He lost Uncle Bacon 😔✊

[@littlesparrow303]

@@jaimeordonez468also how in her comics she does reveal to her dad so it is a canon event

[@prasannabhad]

One of the things that kinda stick out with me about the timeline of events is that in Loki, He who remains (Kang) says that time has a tendency to fix itself and it will fix itself. Not to overshadow the basic understanding of Miguel’s side which is that his understanding of canon events is probably flawed. There must’ve been something he did in that universe to cause the collapse/incursion event.

[@rinzzler366]

What if Miguel-A's universe (the one who died) didn't actually collapse but it fixed itself by removing itself from the web of spiderverse's from miguel-B's PoV it looks like it got destroyed, but it could very well be alive they just aren't allowed to get to it anymore. Also another person in the comments suggested that you can distrupt your OWN canon events but not other universe's and thats why Miguel-A's universe collapsed, or disappeared, because Miguel-B was messing around in it.

[@prasannabhad]

@@rinzzler366 So valid, if that’s true I would love to see how they’d show that in the movie. Like would they just show the earth disappearing and reappearing on like another timeline? Or like it goes to a universe when spidermen are just dead?

[@JackRabbit5402]

Or this could be during the events where the T.V.A prunes places and Miguel simply doesn't know that

[@prasannabhad]

@@JackRabbit5402 I never considered that but that would also make perfect sense.

[@TheOnlyHollywood1]

@@rinzzler366 But then why were the people in that universe freaking out? It can't be that Miguel and the other Spiderman experienced some sort of haliucination

[@crazycryo5856]

Here’s my simple explanation: Canon events themselves don’t exist, they’re simply trends. What Miguel did was not disrupt a canon event, instead he simply went somewhere he was not supposed to be, for far too long and the consequences caught up to him.

[@KyleKringle]

Could be... And that would conceptually make the multiverse more grounded and valuable story wise, as dead characters couldn't be replaced so easily

[@Groddon]

One question though: why is the dimension to crumble instead of Miguel? Shouldn't been him to glitched out of existence by remaining in said dimension?

[@kingtroll2640]

Yea I pretty sure that's exactly what happened cause dimensional collapse happens when someone(excluding dimension hopers like spot and America Chavez) stays to long in the wrong dimension like what happened in doc stange 2

[@matthewjobin6665]

@@Groddon i believe the dimension hopping watch would prevent him from disintegrating, but idk if it works indefinitely, or if it only can work for X amount of time before degradation happens.

[@crazycryo5856]

@@Groddon Perhaps because he couldn’t glitch out, the universe did?

[@mikepanson314]

I noticed some of those things, too. But knowing the creators, they won't make the movie without addressing it. If anything, that's probably what the next movie is gonna be about

[@KyleKringle]

Even the best multiverse movies are a little messy

[@mikepanson314]

@@KyleKringle Yeah, but thats what's great about part 2s, you can fix whatever is broken

[@kinggame40]

@@KyleKringle I feel you have missed a pretty important third option. Miguel doesn't have to be a liar, he just needs to be wrong. Even the smartest people can look at the data and get the wrong idea, especially someone dealing with the grief 2099 did.

[@hauntedwafle]

@@kinggame40 like the TVA was in Loki

[@FaQueue]

I’d like to think Lord and Miller had since 2018 to really write and plan this whole trilogy out. I don’t know the answers but hopefully the third movie doesn’t fall flat on its face after such a near-perfect run so far with these two movies

[@OreoRanger2210]

The answer was given from a meta perspective, but not in the actual narrative. Meta wise spider man is a hero that tries to save everyone and I instinctively believed in Miles. I knew he was right. However, they do not justify it, which you point out. There are plenty of theories as to what is really going on. Miguel is the original anomaly or knows more than he is letting on. The spiders are using the "Cannon Event" idea to justify and deal with the horrid stuff in their backstories. I mean like, look at Peni's actual story (that she has seemingly gone through now), it's rough. I am incredibly excited to see where the next movie goes.

[@zilkon3622]

Her canon event is freaking Evangelion and basically affected the whole planet there either way, not just her, if I am right

[@c97x]

Yeah I think we all know that madam Webb was replaced by Miguel, the reality is is Miguel never had an Uncle Ben or an MJ. The convoluted plot references Spider-Man history and this makes children feel smart, so no one can challenge the stupidity behind the statement. Now because Miguel is for my era I'm going to simplify him to his space means he's violent Spider-Man, okay? When you say something's for boys he is the Spider-Man for boys there's no MJ no Love it's all being cool and fighting bad guys. I'll look at miles he's not even a character yet and we've had enough time but they would rather make him other characters like Thor or wolverine. So we have two not characters leading the movie, and are we just going to try and ignore that neither of them are developed at all but we have an entire plot revolving around them? This is the danger of hype. I expect to be yelled at for a youtube comment.

[@prod.kilvkrxcksxlvd8183]

@@c97xYOU ARE GETTING YELLED AT FOR A KZbin COMMENT!!!! (Jk, you had a lot of good points here)

[@infectioustobi3674]

@@c97x Your main claim is a complaint about the movie but then your points revolve around the comics? The characters are developed in the movie, the source material doesn't affect that

[@TipoIrritable]

Miguel is not an Anomaly, cause his universe needed a Spiderman. Pavtr didnt had his powers by a Spider too.

[@fearmusrozenrot1864]

I've seen a couple vids on that exact plot issue. and based on what I can tell, I think the entire point is to show Miguel is wrong. He may honestly think he's right, so it's not necessarily that he's lying, so much as he may not have realized his own narrative isn't holding up. Too paranoid about the fate of another timeline falling apart to realize that whatever took out the reality that put him on this path was likely something different entirely.

[@doubledipdork]

i’m thinking the inconsistencies are intentional, to leave the audience questioning this mystery, wondering who’s right or wrong, just like the characters. that’s what i’m hoping for lol

[@micah8793]

The irony of Miguel is that he did exactly what kingpin did in the first movie as a villain. Like despite all of his arguments that miles caused all of the canon discrepancies, the person who actually did it was kingpin. And he just wanted to live with a version of himself that had a family which is what Miguel did.

[@kagato23]

It’s Kingpins fault Miles is the anamoly, but it’s still true that miles is the anamoly. It’s not about what Miles did or didn’t intentionally do, it’s that he IS AT ALL. He’s not supposed to be bitten by a universe 42 spider. Since he was, he’s perpetually something that shouldn’t be. He causes breaks in events more easily that way. Think of it as Miles being infected. He doesn’t want to spread the infection but just walking around other people he might get them sick.

[@WebbedManiac]

The difference is that Kingpin was willing to blow up worlds to achieve his goal. The collider is unstable, and people traveling dimensions using the collider start glitching and eventually die. Miguel figured out a safer way to travel: the watch. And we know it works. I guess he didn't expect a world to still blow up.

[@baggyyy]

It would be *veeery* in character for Miguel to have tunnel vision/be in denial or some such and I honestly can't imagine them not proving Miles' pov correct at the end, because the stance he takes is infinitely more spider-man and hero-like than Miguel "Some of you may day, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" O'hara

[@danielfletcher706]

O'Hara has always been the pragmatist of the spider-variants; he's the one that leads the 2099-verse to prosperity and transforms that entire world into an utopia, after all.

[@yigitgulmez4377]

I don't think it would be that much in character. The character is mostly interesting as he seems to not be "fully" wrong and the voice of sense and logic. Miguel being an emotional cry baby and creating a spider society just because he is in denial and does not think any of this through actually destroys a great characterization in my opinion. Btw it is also really dumb that he openly tells Miles when Miles' dad is "supposed" to die. They shouldn't have done the "the system shows..." type of thing. Even with any system it does not make sense that they kind of see the future. I believe they tried to create a meta debate but made it the main question of the movie thus creating the feeling that everything doesn't really fit well and steady.

[@eanderson9599]

You make great points, we have to hope the last movie clarifies everything I think the movie is telling us that Migues doesn’t understand nearly as much as he thinks he does, we just need to find out what the truth actually is

[@xX-DogSama-Xx]

Another detail I only noticed during my second viewing is that after the encounter with Spot in Mumbattan, the black disruption can already be seen on the falling building before Miles interrupts the cannon event, meaning that supposed universal collapse pit would have been there whether Miles intervened or not, totally unrelated to the cannon.

[@SuperEffector]

Yeah I noticed that when I watched it, surprised more people aren’t talking about it.

[@WizardofWestmarch]

Two possibilities. It was starting to form because miles created the possibility, or Miguel is just wrong. I think B but no one in universe actually understands and until it is figured out we are guessing.

[@kartik180rajesh1]

If pavitra Prabhakar is part of the spidermen cult aware about canon events, wouldn't he be aware about about a tragedy waiting for him? As a matter of fact wouldn't all spidermen? Why did nobody else try to save their uncle ben or the close one's death except Miles

[@chrissimcock8943]

Really thorough analysis of the plothole and I agree that it has to be planned out and explained in the next movie. This is probably the reason why they split the movie into two parts as there was not enough time to fit everything into just one film. There probably is another anomaly other than The Spot that is causing these multiverse disruptions. However, I am wondering if they are going to include Madam Web in the next movie since she too overlooks the spider verse much longer before Miguel started doing so I'd imagine.

[@w7vno]

actually, canon events were designed to be bs. do you remember when gwem was sent home and go see her dad, and mr stacy tell her that he quit the job? what did gwen think after that? she said "wait a minute, that means..' and her dad cut the conversation. mr stacy's death was a cannon event he was the captain of that universe. since gwen revealed her identity and go away with miguel, captain stacy quit the job in the middle of his speech thus distrupted the canon. but universe didnt collapse? gwen saw that and said "wait a minute that means..." she was gonna say that means canon events doesn't actually exist because her universe didnt collapse when it should according to canon. remember Dr. Strange MoM? what did actually destroy universes in that universe? incursion. when somebody from another universe stays in a universe they dont belong to, both universes collapse and kill everybody who actually lives in that universe just like what happened to Miguel O'hara. nobody from another universe was in earth 42 nor gwens universe miles's universe this whole time so the universes didnt collapse. this is my theory, i will never think that canon exist that's just miguels misconception about incursion

[@Rav0ria]

There can always be another captain. If we go full meta-logic, it's possible that the trigger is canon events getting close enough to pump-fake the comic reader, and then being subverted. The HISHE for this will very likely involve Gwen explaining the plot to Jeff and convincing him not to take the promotion.

[@X-SPONGED]

But what about the 42 spider? What about the spider society in Miguel's dimension?

[@lemonlemonlemonlemonlemonlemo]

if that’s true then miguel’s universe souls have collapsed too, but maybe not. ignoring that, and the spider,,,, if some aspect of this is true, the fact that there are SO many spideys all chillin in one dimension is gonna have an effect,,,,,,,

[@w7vno]

@@lemonlemonlemonlemonlemonlemo they have Technology to fight incursion like we saw in spider india's universe. im still trying to make this theory work with that im not sure how it works that way but im pretty sure miles will break that "imma do my own thing" was an answer to the audience

[@rohankishibe6433]

​@@X-SPONGEDMaybe it requires a larger amount of mass, or maybe it's because a person influences the series of events way more than the corpse of a spider.

[@teddylugo8965]

I believe a key quote will pan out perfectly in the next one." It's a first time for everything. "

[@alexs799]

I rewatch Gwen's story from the first movie. I realized she saved her father, that is supposed to die according to the cannon event from a bullet. Yet her universe is still intact.

[@trbz_8745]

He quit before he became chief though, so it checks out

[@dominickperez2952]

Her dad dying is only a Canon event if he was a captain

[@jhenryproductionz6388]

Gwen is still a spider person. So her dad not dying by becoming captain still means she disrupted a spider canon since her actions were the ones that led up to that

[@coleg.4209]

@@jhenryproductionz6388He left upon the realisation he was hunting his daughter. We are assuming her Dad was supposed to die in her universe as her Canon event. But as we’ve seen so far, Canon Events are impossible to avoid without external help from an entirely different universe. If Gwen were to save her father from a building then instead of that disrupting a Canon event it would mean that wasn’t the Canon Event. Unless she saved him because someone from another universe helped her or because she knew before hand that it was her Canon Event.

[@reganator5000]

is he the only policeman Gwen, the daughter of a Policeman, has ever met? remember, actual captain Stacy WAS NOT a relative of Peter Parker, he was just a policeman he knew.

[@justiceknight9746]

I think Miguel is incorrect with how it all works. In the first film Gwen says she saved her father, and in Across, her actions lead to her dad leaving the force. Her universe didn’t begin to collapse. Perhaps the only canon event a spider needs to have is the death of a friend or family member. Miles already had his with Aaron. Gwen with Peter. However maybe the reason Miguel collapsed a reality was because his “daughter” was supposed to become that worlds spider after the original Miguel died. With him there, she didn’t need to struggle with his death?

[@octofriends5601]

It’s an incursion

[@eugenekrabs6400]

I’m pretty sure there was already a Spider-Man in that world trying to save people in his flashback.

[@eugenekrabs6400]

@@octofriends5601 This isn’t the MCU they have no obligation to follow the same rules

[@justiceknight9746]

@@eugenekrabs6400 wasn’t that Peter B. Parker? May be misremembering but I’m sure Miguel says something to him that hints that he was there. I’m guessing he enlisted Peter B. To help when he noticed the collapse.

[@eugenekrabs6400]

@@justiceknight9746 idk where he says that but I rewatched it and it and he looks like he’s wearing one of the bracelets so I think you’re right. Know I don’t know what to think anymore.

[@addy241]

I don’t know if Kingpin is alive still after the first movie, but I think it’s interesting that him and Miguel wanted similar things. So if Kingpin actually succeeded in finding an alternate universe daughter and wife, he would have suffered the same fate as Miguel. That’s if Miguel is correct anyway

[@blissfulstatic2563]

Kingpin or his family would have been torn apart eventually due to staying in a different universe without one of the bracelets that the spider society uses. It's fun to note that Octavius was aware of this and she just wanted to watch it happen.

[@jordankeller4253]

I've definitely noticed this pattern. It seems Earth-64 Miles is going to want the same thing, too from the sounds of it.

[@BigeuleLP]

Kingpin is alive. Miles webbed him for the police up at the end. Hes probably in prison

[@damiandab4140]

@@jordankeller4253 Earth 42

[@christopherbowers7236]

i think the real canon-breaking element will be that people cannot exist for a long time in another universe. its because Miguel make himself not glitch and lived there. the spider from universe 42 is dead so it doesnt count. it will set up a bittersweet love story where miles and Gwen cannot be together or they risk their universes.

[@SuperMatthew345]

Glad someone else noticed! Miguel is clearly hiding something and is telling half-truths at best. Especially with that weird "monster moment" with DaVinci Vulture. One of my issues was Miguel implying Miles getting bit somehow doomed Blonde Spidey to die simply because there are two spidermen in that universe. If that was the case, wouldn't creating an organization of hundreds of Spidermen from across the multiverse in a single location be a BAD idea? Or even just 6 Spidermen like the first movie? If Miguel is telling the truth about him stepping into his dead self's place unraveled that universe, why didn't something similar happen when Peter B came to Mile's universe in the last movie?

[@SondaroSasuke]

About point 5 and the whole "How comes a disruptive being like Spot trigger a Canon event" thing: Personally I understand it the same way it was portrayed in Marvel's "What If..." series, specifically the Dr. Strange episode. In it, the canon event ALWAYS happens no matter how hard you try to make it not happen. Thus, Spot causes the canon event, but the event would have happened without him too. It would have happened in any possible telling of that moment in time. That's exactly why it is a canon event: It doesn't matter what the hell is going on with anything, that event just happens.

[@KyleKringle]

Pavitr: BEING SPIDER-MAN IS SO EASY *That was the moment that sealed his fate.*

[@jadecub]

I entirely forgot about the what if series, Which would mean canon events do exist just not in the way miguel thinks... like other spider people can interfere so long as A. the canon event can happen again B the universe doesnt glitch other worldly being out like what happens to the spider people in the first movie and miles in the second and C. this canon event was intended for the universe, in the what if episode where dr strange accidentaly destroy his universe trying to resurect his dead girlfriend or miguel posing as a different universe's dead miguel, that wasnt supposed to happen, so the universe could recorrect itself causing an incursion but for example in the marvels zombie universe ash williams was supposed to travel universe where the infection began and The spider from earth 42 was supposed to give miles his powers was supposed to do that meaning the universe shouldnt need to explode

[@joda7697]

Unless you absorb some interdimensional bitches and break -an- -absolute- -point- a canon event, causing the entire universe to collapse.

[@lazaroskarmaniolas7410]

"It doesn't matter what the hell is going on with anything, that event just happens." If that's the case, then disrupting them won't matter, because they'll keep happening.

What also annoys me is when 2099 says miles was the original anomaly when spot literally says he's the reason spider-man exists so that would make spot the original anomaly because he was the one actually tinkering with the multiverse making him the anomaly

[@haribobear3606]

I think this shows that 2099 can be honestly mistaken or misled. He knows "The Spot" must be stopped but he doesn't know the backstory of miles and spot. As we can understand in the end, he goes to the wrong universe also as well as others. Even though he doesn't know entirely of the story or the logic, he ACTS. And causing him to act wrong.

[@neerajvashisht5364]

Spot caused the anomaly but miles is the anomaly

[@Cappuccino_Rabbit]

​@@neerajvashisht5364technically both are the anomalies Without Spot, there wouldn't be Miles and without Miles there wouldn't be Spot

[@nascentKiller]

If you really think about it, maybe Miguel is the anomaly. He was never bitten by a spider, his uncle never died, and his father figure never died either. His family dying, while traumatic, isn't a reasonable extension of our understanding of "canon events". And in the comics at least, 2099 is the first non-peter parker or Peter Parker adjacent spiderman, decades before Miles was even a concept.

[@neerajvashisht5364]

@@Cappuccino_Rabbit yes, but Miles is still the original anomaly.

[@dontneverquit]

Final question: doesn’t finding out about a canon event that has to happen to you (for character development) which hasn’t happened yet, actually destroy the purpose of that canon event happening? Like wouldn’t the canon event that brings character development only be effective if you didn’t know it was going to happen? Love the movie, just thought of this last night.

[@rorekthedemon]

I have a big comment about this I just posted. I don't think what happens matters as long as the outcome is the same. For example, Peter B. Parker needed to have Mayday, how he came to that conclusion doesn't matter. Gwen needed to become a specific her, if her father needed to die he would have, but he retired. Such as one can say Pavitr needed Sing to die then, or else he wouldn't become the Spiderman he needed to be. Maybe he'd grow too egotistical and arrogant had he not had that happen right when it was supposed to. It doesn't matter that Spot triggered it, or even what the canon event is supposed to be, as long as the outcome is the same. Much like I think Miguel was becoming a spiderman he shouldn't be by having a family. While he didn't disrupt any canon events, that other timeline still collapsed. Either he wasn't who he was supposed to be, or he prevented someone from becoming who they were supposed to be. I also think this is why spidermen interacting throughout the two movies so far hasn't mattered, in the end they end up who they need to be.

[@mtsds7801]

good point, it's like they (the film makers) want we to think about that, because we have a very simple way to prevent, but Miguel never saw it, at least, he never told other spider about that.

[@humzasiddiqui5761]

@@rorekthedemonalso Miguel subtly implied that he did change a canon event when he was in thag other universe by saying he kept trying to change things while there to miles,which would make much more sense hence why he’s lecturing miles on said canon events

[@fredheadeded5358]

​@@humzasiddiqui5761 I definitely thought it was a situation where he saw himself in Miles and didn't want him to repeat the same mistakes.

[@humzasiddiqui5761]

@@fredheadeded5358 100 percent, it’s like directly implied Miguel did change canon events even tho they didn’t show what it was

[@alexlight4178]

Miguel strikes me as a great and deep character. In potential. Hope we get more of him

[@Hamantha]

I think Miguel is way in the wrong and defo an unreliable narrator. His backstory is probably the biggest factor without concrete explanations. He seems like the type to Cherry pick specific Spider-Man who’d be more willing to follow him than not. Specific incarnations even

[@KyleKringle]

Funny how he got Insomniac Spider-Man but not Miles from that same universe

[@bijacz9679]

BECAUSE HE'S BLA-

[@zottersgamingchannel5207]

@@KyleKringleI think that just makes him think of movie miles if he had

[@Hamantha]

@@KyleKringle yo I didn’t even catch that! Miguel is so fucking sketchy. I don’t trust him anymore

[@Hamantha]

@@KyleKringle although now I’m imagining Insomniac Miles getting jumped from the confusion 😭😭

[@akita.1s]

It’s not the most relevant, but Miles himself is definitely a ‘plot hole’ to this because his powers still came from another universe, and that butterfly effected into their SpiderMan’s death, which doesn’t fall in the line of canon events. And not to mention, his entire existence by now should’ve made his universe collapse by now. I don’t know why Miles saving pravtir’s gfs dad (I think) caused a disruption to happen, since the spot caused that danger himself. What’s interesting is how this was immediately detected though, meaning canon events might be able to be caused by people that aren’t from the universe. The entire time I was like ‘don’t put it all on them, this guy is literally the one portal spamming and breaking reality, why isn’t he himself triggering and canon disruptions?’

[@kannan07]

The machine is definitely not picking up canon events,but rather any universes being destroyed

[@floating_couch]

If canon events can be triggered by forces from other universes, it makes sense that 1610 Miles and his world didn't collapse, especially because Peter Parker died so he's the only Spiderman experiencing those canon events

[@Ezzylryb]

To put simply: It's all canon. The entire spiderverse trilogy are canon events (because it's literally movies that we are watching already)

[@TipoIrritable]

Basically, this movie lacks of multiverse information

[@akita.1s]

@@TipoIrritable yeah, it’s definitely going to have to be the fact canon events might not even be ‘canon events’ but rather multiversal disruptions that work differently

[@robertogonzalez1907]

This. This is all I was thinking about after my viewing of the movie. Like shouldn’t universe hopping in the first place disrupt said universes. The members of the Spider-Society seem completely fine with spending most of their time in Miguel’s universe, consuming food in that universe, and therefore replenishing their own bodies with another universes atoms.

[@KyleKringle]

Biggest brained proof that incursions aren't a thing in Spider-Verse

[@Khalid.Ibrahim0897]

@@KyleKringle They even receive therapy there. If Miguel is right, that spider-man bringing up Uncle Ben in therapy should totally mess with the canon.

[@ChiWillett]

joke's gonna be on the spider society, Miles "disrupting" the canon was his canon all along

[@Max_G4]

​@@ChiWillettWell... Yeah. The calculations for when his dad will die only make sense if you account for anything that can be done by Miles or others. Or you do it without the possibility that he mulziverse traveled. Him missing for so long definitely has consequences. It's not just a butterfly flapping its wings, it's a person vanishing, his parents worrying and searching. And also, the event would probably only happen because the *multiversal threat* that the Spot is does it in his revenge plans.

[@randomknight2585]

For Miguel becoming a father in the universe that eventually collapsed, I’m guessing that the original Miguel’s death was supposed to be the ‘end’ of the story, or his continued status as being dead would just continue on to infinity as the story. But when the new Miguel came along and took up the dead Miguel’s spot, all the story-beats a dead Miguel was supposed to bring about will now never happen, disrupting the story and canon of that universe.

[@JuicedPotato]

Honestly, I love this idea. The idea of Miguel being an unreliable narrator not only fills that hole, but also... makes sense? He has survivors guilt - the universe he took as his own unravelled, he was the only survivor. So he blamed himself - presuming it was his own actions that doomed an entire world.

[@DulcetCatharsis]

I always thought that it just made the universes unstable, and without outside intervention they fall apart. Like damage to the foundation of a building. Some universes collapse outright, others slowly burn, others can be saved. I'm pretty sure Miguel even says something along these lines; that they try to save destabilized universes but it doesn't always work

[@CODDE117]

Yeah the Mumbhattan universe got a big corruption hole that the spiderfolk sealed off

[@arkhamcreed4326]

Inaccurate, but to understand we need to establish something; the Sony Spiderman movies really, really, REALLY want to be part of the MCU. Between all the overt cameos and references here, to Spider Man far from Home, to Multiverse of Madness, it's pretty clear that Sony is angling to make these movies part of that same multiverse. And that multiverse has set rules. We know exactly how all that works because it's literally the plot of MoM. Spiderverse called it "unraveling" while MoM called it "incursions" but it's all ultimately the same thing; a multiverse anomaly happens and the universe falls apart. What causes an incursion? Being in the wrong universe. Cannon events have nothing whatsoever to do it. What matters is a living being existing in the wrong universe for too long, and doing too much. We know dead things and inanimate objects don't count, but living creatures very much do. And it appears that in Across the Spiderverse worlds unravel faster when there are more spider people in them. While in Into the Spiderverse the whole plot revolved around getting the other spiders out before it was too late. They thought they would die if they were allowed to glitch for too long, but what if the universe itself is what dies? The glitching is like an immune response trying to force out the infection. And 2099's little wrist bands, that stabilize the spiders...destabilize the universe. Like giving someone infected with a deadly virus immune blockers. Miguel's issue is he won't or can't admit that HE IS THE PROBLEM. Its his tech that is unraveling the spiderverse.

[@dstebb9277]

If that were the case, wouldnt neuva york already collapse (miguels universe) considering theres constantly alot of spiderpeople from different dimensions inside of it?

[@amyg1930]

Yeah I remember two times where Miguel is like "that universe is collapsing because you didn't let the commissioner die" "wait wasn't that bc of spot?" "..." And another point where someone outright questions how he knows it'll happen

[@Rav0ria]

This is what id go with irl, but from a storytelling perspective it'd suck. "Here's a pure nonsense comic-logic existential threat that you have to suspend disbelief for so that the movie works" can't be followed by "wait nvm that was wrong all along". The sequel will either be about threading the needle to work around the phenomenon, or breaking the cycle (Beyond the Spiderverse)

[@chriswallace5339]

Miguel did say "Save *enough* captains", implying that the web can adapt, but you're playing jenga, and you never know which thread will unravel what. Miguel disrupting the cannon glitched out all life in that dimension, whereas Spider-42 being removed may have simply removed that world from the Spider-Verse, but not the overall multi-verse. He even says "Do you want to find out?" when Gwen asks if he thinks he could be wrong. So he could be wrong, or right, and telling the truth, and just trying to play the longest odds. I think they could have bolstered his argument if there'd been a few spiders in the society who's universes were gone. I still think that Beyond the Spider-Verse will either blow apart his theory (my bet is on there being damaging vs non-damaging events) or he will sacrifice himself to save things as a redemption arc.

[@singundertherose]

Has no one else remembered how often in this movie the topic of parenting, and specifically the idea that parenting is hard and *there is no one right way to do it*, comes up? Parenting and being a superhero are both about putting other people’s needs before yours, and realizing that your decisions affect a lot more people than just yourself, and the so-called ‘canon events’ are times when those decisions and the results of them have long-lasting or far reaching consequences. If someone who doesn’t know your family dynamics interferes in your family life, things are going to implode - and likewise, the incursions are messing with things and people in ways that the spider society can’t always predict and adapt to. I personally think that the solution is for the spider society to work together with the other spider people to save more people rather than letting them die.

[@lynnie3043]

Miguel's specific line of "YOURE the anomaly IM keeping it all together." feels like a hint to him being the exact opposite. Bros actually the main one breaking apart

[@ChaseTheLace]

I saw something a tad little silly in the mumbattan cannon event (tell me if I'm wrong) But the entire cannon event happened because the spot made that big triangle thing fall through the whole city, causing the bridge to fall, blah blah, you know what's supposed to happen, But its all caused by the spot, the same spot that wouldn't have existed if miles hadn't gotten the spider, Miguel said miles wasn't supposed to be Spiderman and that the original one wouldn't have died if miles hadn't gotten bitten, so how can the spot, the guy from another multiverse create a cannon event in another multiverse? He wouldn't be real if miles wasn't bitten, so I'm a little confused on that

[@huddled_up]

makes you wonder if miguel even knows what he's talking about, since multiple characters question if you even have to follow the "canon" what i think is that miguel replaced a person who was dead, ultimately invalidating someone's death, meanwhile the other events, the people hadn't died yet, so saving them didn't cause the whole world to disentegrate, im probably wrong tho edit: i just watched a little bit more of the video and he actually says all that lmao

[@KyleKringle]

Exactly, it's what made me think that the black terror goo forming at the bottom was the broken collider. But the other Spider-Men showing up with defenses made me think this was a result of the canon breaking. Either way it's intriguing

[@finnvost9349]

I think that, remember Loki? And how Sylvie was always living in Nexus events so that given how she is a Nexus event herself, she wasn't noticed by the TVA. My theory is that The Spot jumped from activated collider to activated collider, as we saw the lab was full and Spotty vanished them all out of the lab to save them, so I think that the collider was going to explode anyway, regardless of Spot's intervention

[@blacknight1641]

@@finnvost9349 Doubt he did it to safe them

[@finnvost9349]

@@blacknight1641 i don't see why he wouldn't save the scientists, they've done nothing wrong to him, on the contrary, they're helping him Keep in mind that the Spot is a confused villain, not a Super one. As we see from his intro, he harbours no ill intent against anyone except his nemesis and their loved ones. Also i assume that the Alchemax lab explosion wasn't planned by the Spot, after all he just wanted more power to _destroy_ Miles

[@xedusk]

Let’s also not forget that Gwen had a talk with her father because of all the things that happened in this movie and that talk got him to quit. He’s no longer captain and it feels like that’s supposed to imply that he’s no longer going to die. Gwen’s canon was also changed. Gwen also seemed to notice this as well and has probably already pointed it out to her team and will point it out to Miles when they reconvene. She’ll probably say something like, “if my father can be saved, then can yours.”

[@RileyRieker8593]

This! Gwen seeing her dad quit and NOT seeing a big black hole open up to destroy her universe is what inspired her to break rank and go after Miles!

[@TabbyVee]

The part that makes me think this is absolutely intentional is the line Gwen says to Miguel "Are you sure you know what happens if he breaks the canon?"

[@jezzabelle318]

I'm so glad someone else is talking about this because I had the exact same questions when the movie credits rolled- it just doesn't make sense no matter how you slice it. I'm almost certain it's gotta be something we address in part 2, because it feels so obviously erroneous (to the point where honestly it's a whole other plot hole that all the other Spider People Follow Miguel's lead after hearing his tale)

[@Nasox]

I don't understand why you guys think that's a plot hole. That's the entire point of the movies. We even have a scene where qwen breaks the canon and nothing happens ( her father quit his job as Police captain instead of dying). That's the entire point why she decided to Rebel against Miguel at the end.

[@Ryan-cu5gg]

It's a bit of a reach but I think there's a good explanation as to why the spider people follow Miguel baked into the movies central characters that I suppose we just sort of extend to the thousands upon thousands of side characters, basically: their lives all fucking suck and they take comfort in the fact that other people have lives that suck in the exact same way. Gwen is the most obvious example, if Miguel is correct, then she isn't at fault for killing Peter, it was cosmic fate that killed him, as well as that (this one's a bit dark and I think shows just how much of an emotional lowpoint she was at in this movie) she could basically just wait for her father to die to avoid being arrested in her own universe. like I said it might not be the most satisfying explanation but it's not too difficult to imagine there's similar circumstances for the other spider-people, also they've probably never actually messed with a canon event to observe the effects (or lack thereof) themselves.

[@Gummy195]

@@Nasox People are saying it is because it honesty doesn’t make much sense- we’re dealing with thousands of variants of Peter Parker (which I think most of us forget is a genius) who are not willing to challenge Miguel at all. It seems like a stretch and arbitrary writing in my opinion to give Miles a pedestal to stand on which doesn’t feel very natural for the characters. I hope that the next one is wrapped up well, but I just think the writing has a high risk of being shallow

[@Deadweight45]

​​​​​@@Gummy195Despite having 1⅓ years of visiting different multiverses, Miguel only has about ~280 variants in that multiverse hub area. While 280 is a lot, and Miguel was probably very busy and didn't have a lot of time, 280 seems low given how much time has passed and it can imply that Miguel was cherry picking variants that would listen to him and/or many other variants have ready rejected him.

[@maazali1595]

Bruh what , the story isn't even completed yet and you call it a plothole? You good bro?

[@gunmetalrook432]

FOR REAL. This hit everything on my mind. Canon events and breaking them seemed completely unfounded or inconsistent and purely to drive the plot. When Spot caused the catastrophe in another universe, he was allowed to, but when the heroes "fixed" it, "BRO WHAT U DOING IT WAS SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN!"

[@l.sdesilva3218]

Yeh and also if Mile's dad is supposed to die as a canon event, why did Miguel intervene, tell Miles what happens, then keep him trapped in his universe. Why didnt he keep his mouth shut and let Miles return home to fight spot, then by fate Mile's dad would have died as a canon event?

[@gunmetalrook432]

@@l.sdesilva3218 yeah fr fr

[@devastatingrpg2075]

@@l.sdesilva3218 yea in fact by telling miles about this, miguel was breaking the canon. They aren't supposed to know their captain figure is supposed to die by his logic, yet he told him.

[@melbrbalut3087]

@@l.sdesilva3218 spittin

[@RANDOM-ou6ez]

@@l.sdesilva3218 I don't think he knew that Miles had the vision that Spot kills his dad. He probably thought he'd tell Miles, and then he'd know his dad is gonna die one day but not when.

[@sergik56]

That's the thing. Miguel THINKS the canon what keeps a universe together. He isn't lying because that's what he BELIEVES. But he can be wrong. It is loose on purpose so that in the third movie they can say "wow, it wasn't the canon after all huh". If they really went with all the canon thing, then it would be a problem because this concerns would be true

[@ingram4056]

To tell you the truth I think Miguel is not completely wrong about some things Since losing one or more loved ones is a part of a Spider-Man’s growth

[@sergik56]

@@ingram4056 it is possible, but we don't know if that's the whole picture

[@chongwillson972]

@sergik56 idk about that, that would just take away an interesting argument, and just makes so that MC is right and everyone else is wrong which is boring...

[@sergik56]

@@chongwillson972 no. The whole point of the movie is to say that you can do things on your terms and that you can not resign. That's literally the plot. Having everything against you but still try

[@skyguy1236]

not only that, but it would make miles provably wrong. his whole "go my own way" thing would be the bad side, and miguel would be on the rational good side. audiences probably wouldn't like that, I know I wouldn't. I don't wanna see Miles's dad die or worse, Miles universe collapse..

[@charlysbonsaii9358]

My theory is that, what actually causes the people to glitch and the worlds to fall apart ist beings entering different universes that aren't theirs (as explained in the MCU). So not only is Miguel mistaken about the "canon events" but he also makes everything worse by sending different spidermen on missions across the Multiverse.

[@monkeseeaction21987]

- Miguel wants the canon event of Miles to happen so supposedly the multiverse doesn't collapse - He (and Lyla) knows it happens in two days - He wants to keep Miles in the headquarter so the canon event for sure happens (even traps him) - Miles knows (from collider vision) that spot will kill his dad but not sure when - A sane Miguel would lie to Miles and keep him happy in the headquarters for two days and let Miles' dad get killed without Miles knowing - Instead Miguel literally reveals to Miles of the exact time of the canon event, prompting Miles to escape headquarters. He even commands the whole spider army to chase him. - Why TF would he do that he could have just kept his mouth shut and waited for Miles' dad to die

[@lesteryaytrippy7282]

Oh my god!! This!! Could this be oversight? I mean, they probably did this for the audience, as info! But now we're scratching our heads. Why tell us so much and now we're scrambling to try to explain Canon Events lore and even criticize how there's probably a writing oversight. Miguel should've kept his mouth shut....unless he has a plan but that also doesn't make sense

[@BrentButler]

This was legit the #1 thing that was bugging me leaving the theatre. It’s like “you can’t leave because you know too much,” but he knows too much because YOU TOLD HIM. Miguel could have just sent Miles home without explaining any of this to him and things would have gone exactly to Miguel’s liking. It bums me out that such a good film has a central conflict caused by “super smart guy was just being dumb I guess 🤷🏼‍♂️.”

[@galientl4723]

@@BrentButlerI think it’s alright personally. Comes across to me as more he’s trying to make Miles aware of the way things are so he doesn’t continue to unintentionally disrupt canon, only for it to backfire since he didn’t anticipate Miles just not accepting it.

[@PeptoAbismol]

​@@galientl4723I agree. even if it would've been smarter for Miguel to not tell Miles anything about how his dad needs to die, he would still need to let Miles know about these canon events so he won't put the multiverse at more risk than he already has (creation of Spot). and knowing how smart Miles can be, he probably would've figured it out one way or another. I don't see how he wouldn't be able to considering he and Spot literally saw the future together before he was even told about his dad's death.

[@OffbrandDTraveler]

You realize he would’ve just gone back anyway right You can’t just keep Miles at HQ. He has things to do and villains to fight, especially with there being a multiverse-level threat that wants to “take everything from him”

[@someguyinazoo]

One thing I really liked about it is that the spider city isn’t the one controlling the multiverse timeline,like their trying to keep to stable instead of being likes gods

[@KyleKringle]

That's why I can't call Miguel O'Hara a villain. It's not ego, it's fear

[@lazsunny]

@@KyleKringle Miguel 0'Hara isnt a villain, his actions are justifiable and reasonable, he cant just let an entire universe collapse just to see whether hes right or wrong about the canon events theory, better let a few people die per universe than have the entire universe collapse

[@bluegnubarbeque270]

​@@lazsunnyhe is the villain of the story, the opposing force for the protagonist, he doesn't have to be outright evil and do evil things to function as a villain

[@slaybutton1692]

​@@bluegnubarbeque270You're thinking of an antagonist, my guy. Villains DO have to do bad tho. He isn't a villain, he's the ANTAGONIST. There's a clear distinction

[@lazsunny]

@@bluegnubarbeque270 the villain is the spot, not Miguel O Hara, miguel just doesnt know spots power cuz he didnt see it beforehand, when miguel asked the people in the spider society to go find miles he also said "oh and catch the spot" as someone would say, go bring my coffee from that table. Miguel isnt wrong as i said earlier, his actions are justifiable

[@gremshabs]

I think Miguel's trauma is blinding him from the actual reason behind that universe being destroyed. It could be that he continued to be Spider-man in that universe and broke it somehow but it doesn't really add up. It could be that anomalies cause the events by being present and he was technically an anomaly because Miguel should have been dead in that universe but I just hope the next movie explains everything.

[@askredditstudios8055]

Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.7

[@kagato23]

@@askredditstudios8055only Spider-Christ is worshipped here heretic.

[@pepe-gfv2]

@@askredditstudios8055 Dick 4:20 "My balls in your jaw"

[@lucasgierhart5805]

I personally think that Miguel knows the canon event theory isn’t true and he just told it to other spider people to get them to join his cause

[@nathanguava883]

An important undercurrent of the movie was how trauma has guided characters into making bad decisions - mainly Gwen’s story, but also Spot. I think the same theme applies to Miguel who has incorrectly conflated anomalies and canon events as the cause of the collapse of universe; due to seeing his adopted second world and family destroyed. I suspect this may undercut 42 Miles character as well in Beyond - where Miguel will also properly reconsider his actions like Gwen did in Across.

[@MemekoASMR]

Gwen's dad quitting the police department would have also disrupted a canon event as she would not experience a police captain close to her dying in the line of duty, this may indicate that the canon events aren't set in stone and could be adjusted but the way Miguel went about it ended up causing the destruction of his timeline.

[@chirag9159]

had the same thought

[@hhc553]

Gwen's canon event was Peter's death.

[@MemekoASMR]

@@hhc553 There's multiple canon events, mentor's death, close friend's death, police chief's death etc, they're things that every spiderman has to go through.

[@LeonardoBramante]

I think the so called "canon events", should they be real, are incredibly vague and just need the bare minimum to appease them. Example, a police captain close to one dying. The moment he quit the police force, the Captain died and no longer existed since he was no longer in the force. It fit the vague requirement enough to be accepted by canon.

[@thekingishuey9072]

@@LeonardoBramante That actually makes a lot of sense.

[@Nasox]

I mean qwen also broke the canon by telling her father who she is and leaving. He reacted by quitting his job as Police captain. Which broke the canon that he has to die for her character development. That's why she rebels against Miguel at the end of the movie.

[@KyleKringle]

Right, I forgot to mention that. Though at the time, I saw it as, "oh good, this arc isn't going to form."

[@Glitchy588Live]

Its not captain stacy specifically every time, just a captain

[@Nasox]

@@Glitchy588Live it's always a Captain who has some kind of relationship with spiderman. That's why we see that the captain is the father of Spidermans girlfriend in the reality where Miles breaks the Canon. We only know that her Qwens father was the captain. And she has no friends. That implies that he will die.

[@gabrielbuonomano]

Also, if Miles isn't Peter and wasn't supposed to be spider-man, why does he have canon events? The explanation here could be similar to how canon events can be caused by extradimensional interference. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[@Silcoonsixx]

Having also seen the movie twice myself, i wondered a lot of the same.. I honestly think that the movie /wants/ us to go "hey wait". I think this is all very intentional writing haha.. I am so excited to see how it plays out..

[@KyleKringle]

Same boat. Probably gonna have to wait Beyond March 2024 though...

[@jets3tjedda482]

A theory I came up with is that the Miguel shown in the movie killed his original version, in his backstory it says that his alternate timeline Miguel got killed but never explicitly said who killed him, he clearly was supposed to be Spider-Man in that timeline. Another theory that backs this is that he says he did the same thing as miles. If we take this literally then by that logic he also took his alternate universes spider.

[@jasonhusvar7357]

My personal theory is that The Spot causes all of it. After he is in the supercollider, he confronts Miles and he says that he is going to take everything away from him as he has with the others. This makes me think that he is actively going around and making sure every spiderman he knows of suffers the same initial traumas. He is the reason that the uncles and dads die, he is the reason that all of them suffer. He has planned all of this and when something doesnt go as planned, he deletes that world. This makes the spidermen have to suffer and have absolutely no hope of fixing said suffering. That also explains why the world collapses on Miguel, his daughter dies and then he goes to another world where the daughter is alive making him happy and The Spot wasnt about to have that, so he deleted the world he went to, thus keeping the trauma and hopelessness going.

[@ellioso2027]

Wasn't the creation of The Spot due to Miles' actions from the first movie? How could Spot affect previous Spidermen when his story began after Miles became Spiderman and, more specifically, after Miles infiltrated Alchemax? Miguel's universe collapsed long before Spot was created.

[@mo6555]

@@ellioso2027 i thought that as well and i think it would be a very good point if we didn't already see time travel was possible in ITSV. when peter from miles' universe is put into the collider, the other spiders are all thrown into a different point in time (hence gwen already being in his school). Since Spot's powers are derived from that same collider, it wouldn't surprise me if the far more powerful version of him can also warp time somehow.

[@eugenekrabs6400]

@@mo6555 spot can give visions of the future too apparently so that’s more time fuckery. I really doubt this is spot’s actual plan but I think it’s not unreasonable to assume he’s able to mess with time to some degree at this point.

[@jasonhusvar7357]

@@mo6555 Yeah, plus once movies start using the word quantum before stuff, that usually means that anything is possible lol. Im thinking that since he stepped into the collider and gained the strength from it, it lets him tap into some quantum mechanics powers which usually means that time is their play thing, so he can jump around as desired. I mean, he can literally jump through the fabric of the universe before he powers up, so stepping through time aint that much of a step for him.

[@NO_ir777]

I second this. Once pavitr's world started "unraveling" they played the spots theme instead of some unique theme for the unraveling of a universe. His motif from spot holes 2 was very much there. There's no way that was unintentional.

[@TheOne-dn9mr]

THIS VIDEO IS A CANON EVENT BRO

[@kish6888]

Aside from the ideas people have about how the spider-verse trilogy will sort this out, I wanna point out that this is in line with a very common issue that media about several multiverses/timelines has in general. I mean, when you create the notion of an infinite number of possibilities and realities, and then try to tell a storyline with it, it is close to impossible to not have inconsistencies and ex-machinas. We can see this in the live action marvel films post infinity war, for instance. I think the only thing i've ever seen that does it near to perfection is the tv show Dark.

[@renookami4651]

As explored in many "what if scenario" comics, those kind of events usually autocorrect themselvess. For example if uncle Ben doesn't die, it's usually aunt May who dies instead. It doesn't need to be this specific, but events of the same nature occuring. So, that's kinda weird indeed...This probably fall under "they were mistaken about the nature of the problem" to be explored later

[@wolfdragonful]

It feels like Miguel has a very myopic view of the multiverse. He's too focused on the Spider-People aspect to see other possible outcomes. I always have liked the idea that was proposed in a DC animated movie that the multiple Earths are formed because a choice was made somewhere and the universe said "but what if the opposite happened" and boom, exponential posibilities. Nevermind that Miguel claims he tried to fix things only to break them more. What things did he try to fix?

[@KyleKringle]

Probably the rogue characters that get sucked into different dimensions like Vulture and the other villains from different domains. Though, why this wasn't economized better 🤷...

[@portalj]

“We haven’t always been so lucky” -Miguel Seems it’s happened multiple times before and on occasion they’re successful in preventing collapse. I’m just assuming it’s that new Kang guy from Loki, letting variants exist unlike the last but only if they’re ones that’ll be on his side. Aka, the universe has to follow a certain path/canon events to get “good variants” of himself. If not, he erases that timeline, or try’s. If the canon fails, it’s too risky to just try it again because butterfly effect could already have started taking place. But there are the times when the spiders succeed in saving the timeline. And then you get Kang variants like the one in Ant man. The bad Kangs that seep through, and must be casted out. That’s just a theory tho, a film theory