Elros | Tolkien's Accidental King of Men

Elrond and Elros, are two of the famous twins of Tolkien's Legendarium. This video details the creation of the character known as Elros, twin brother of Elrond, and how Elrond became one of the half-elven due to a 'fortunate accident', in Tolkien's own words.
► Chapters:
0:00 - Intro
1:24 - Who is Elrond?
2:08 - Who is Elros?
3:05 - Elrond, Lord of Númenor
5:28 - Elrond, Half-elven
6:56 - Naming difficulties
9:29 - Elrond in The Hobbit
12:46 - Accidental twins & destiny
► Attribution:
Dates of Tolkien's writings obtained by Jason Baker (scifi.stackexchange.com/users...) in his answer to "Was Elrond always supposed to be an Elf?" (scifi.stackexchange.com/a/914...) - Used under CC BY-SA 3.0 (Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 3.0)
Elrond's description in The Hobbit by Wad Cheber (scifi.stackexchange.com/users...) in his question "Was Elrond always supposed to be an Elf?" (scifi.stackexchange.com/q/914...) - Used under CC BY-SA 3.0 (Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 3.0)
► Support the Channel:
Support the channel through Patreon - / stevengibb
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View Members-only Videos - • Members-only videos
► Supporters:
Patricia, Dovid Nachson Albright, Moses Gunn, ncv1993, Oliver Falangan, Seraphim38, Victus Schmmidtt, Douglas Harley, Ian Haydel, Joe Raffurty, Master of Dungeons, TB, Adam Dallas29, Carden, Carson Miller, Catherine G White, Connor Mulders, David Lafferty, Ess Jay Dubs, Jim Loughlin, Molly Barger, Nima, Ryan H, Sko, VoxPhantom, InconceivableDreamer234, boi sophies
► On-Screen Notes:
Not included
► Artwork:
All artists, images, and links to sources are found by following the link below. If you would like to see your artwork appear in videos or discuss the use of your artwork on the channel, please get in touch.
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
► Thumbnail art :
Elrond and Elros - Kinko-White (deviantart.com/kinko-white)
► Audio:
The following music was used for this media project:
Lost Time by Kevin MacLeod
Link: incompetech.filmmusic.io/song...
License: filmmusic.io/standard-license
► Disclaimer:
All videos are the result of my own research into the works of Tolkien unless otherwise stated. I do not claim rights to any audiobooks, music, or artwork used. All scripts and editing are my own work. Permission has been requested from all copyright holders.
#tolkien #elrond #archives #legendarium #lotr #numenor

[@GirlNextGondor]

I really, really enjoyed this deep look at the evolution of Elrond/Elros in Tolkien's imagination. It highlights one of my favorite parts of his creative process: faced with a contradiction in the rules he himself has set, instead of deciding "well, maybe Elves do reuse names," he doubles down and writes himself out of the problem in such a way that usually the mythology is enhanced. The duality of Elrond and Elros, representing both the union and the division between the Elven and Mannish kindreds, is such a neat little symbolic move that it's funny to think it wasn't intentional.

[@TheRedBook]

I agree and I love that he took the time and effort to correct what he saw as errors in this way. What do you think about the reuse of the name Legolas that I mentioned? Do you think it was OK for him to do it because he didn't take the Gondolin Legolas any further in his writings? If he did, do you suspect he would have had the same issue he had with Elrond and Glorfindel? Nicely put. And I had originally planned on the ending of the video to be an in-depth look at Elros all the way through to Aragorn...but it doubled the video length. Perhaps I will return to that in the future. I do like this "fortunate accident" resulting in possibly the most important family tree in the Legendarium, one could argue anyway...

[@tominiowa2513]

@@TheRedBook - On a related note, does the name Denethor first appear for the Stewards of Gondor, or the king of the Laiquendi who died in the First Age in the Wars of Beleriand?

[@Enerdhil]

@@tominiowa2513 One is an elf king the other is a Gondorian steward. Maybe cross race use of names is not an egregious a mistake. Mablung was an elf of Doriath, while Mablung was an Ithilien Ranger in the Third Age.

[@tominiowa2513]

@@Enerdhil - Not implying a mistake, just curious who had the name first in Tolkien's writings. And of course, the character commonly referred to as Denethor is actually Denethor II (and both Gondorian Denethor's had a son named Boromir).

[@TheRedBook]

@@tominiowa2513 The Elf Denethor seems to have been first. His appearance is documented in HoMe, as far back as The Lost Road and Other Writings - specifically writings that led up to Tolkien starting The Lord of the Rings. Unless he had already thought of the character Denethor (the Steward) before even thinking of The Lord of the Rings, which isn't documented anywhere. So, Denethor (Elf) was contained in Tolkien's writings at least up to the 1937 date when Tolkien set The Silmarillion aside. I'm confident in saying he was first in that case.

[@gandalf8216]

Elrond's true sacrifice, and role, and purpose, became to be in service to the legacy of his brother. While the reunion with his wife in the Undying Lands remained a true promised reward, he still sacrificed much for it. Arwen, his many relatives, the fall of Gondor, and remaining as a staunch guardian sentinel to all of Arda for millennia. Elrond chose the Eldar fate, because he is Eldar in his soul. It takes a high elf to take such a long-term path towards destiny.

[@TheMarcHicks]

What is even more fascinating is that Elrond also has twin sons-Elladan & Elrohir....& it has been noted, in scientific circles, that twins tend to run in families.

[@johnries5593]

It had never occurred to me before that Elrond and Elros were twins. That does make it nearly certain that Elrond sailed to Numenor to be with his brother when he died.

[@TheRedBook]

Actually, it's more likely that Elrond never went to Numenor. Tolkien never wrote about it at all, but when the Captain of the King's Ships from Numenor - Veantur - sailed to Middle-earth to reconnect with Cirdan , Elros had already been dead for over 150 years. Looking at the timeline, it doesn't seem like there's much opportunity for the two to have met. Maybe when Cirdan's ships were vising Numenor for a few decades but there's no mention of Elrond ever being on one of them and it's possible many of these ships were one way trips to Aman and we know Elrond dwelt in Middle-earth until the end of the Third Age.

[@Yashael341]

@@TheRedBook Possibly, Elrond new that if he sailed to Númenor he would be tempted to sail on to Aman after that. He was likely aware that he had a significant role to play in the coming age, and didn't want to abandon his post, so he didn't risk the temptation. Had he sailed west to see his brother, he might have left Middle Earth forever and doomed the sons of Men that dwelt there.

[@TheMarcHicks]

Another point that this story highlights, IMO, is the largely unspoken tragedy of Elrond. He loses almost everyone he cares about before the First Age is even over. Then he is sundered forever from his own twin brother, then he is separated from his wife for several thousand years. Then, as a final blow, he is sundered forever from his own daughter.

[@TheRedBook]

I hope you enjoyed this video about Elrond and Elros. It is the third video of the Tolkien Archives playlist, so make sure to check out the other videos in that series for a look at the history of Tolkien's writings - kzbin.info/www/bejne/m57LXqmNjNakibs My next video will be answering questions surrounding the redeemability of the Nazgûl !

[@MistaGify]

Elros is truly like Glorfindel, a mistake/conundrum turned into one of The Legendarium's most important characters. It's amazing how late he was improvised, how little text he actually occupies in The Silmarillion, combining both The First and Second Ages. Yet his late barebones existence paved the way for Aragorn and Arwen's character arcs, the culmination of Man and Elf across 5 millennia of 2 Ages. Once again, when you're a prodigious worldbuilder, even small mistakes and compromises can lead to the greatest of development!

[@arthurfields9575]

I love your videos. Love your take on the Lore and enjoy learning more and refreshing my knowledge of what I have read too long ago. You really make me want to reread the books. As someone who lives in a place with very hot summers it is just strange to me to associate kindness with sumner. I know that Tolkien grew up and lived in England and their summers are much more pleasant than the summers where I live.

[@LeHobbitFan]

I had no idea about any of this! It's incredible to see how a change as tiny as reusing a name (which Tolkien still did often, going as far as having a Steward named Beren) could lead to such a significant improvement in the mythology of Arda... A "euchatastrophy" of sorts! ^^ Thank you!

[@TheRedBook]

Ah but the excuse there would be that Men have no problem reusing names, even from those of Elves. Tolkien was following the rules established by the Elves, while making out that he wasn't in charge of the rules set out by the Elves themselves. Haha, it's such a great way to world build imo.

[@LeHobbitFan]

@@TheRedBook True, true! And after all, Tolkien was but a humble translator of the Red Book, we can't expect him to explain every little thing... ^^

[@tunguskalumberjack9987]

@@LeHobbitFan I appreciated your use of that term- that’s one that I hadn’t seen in print since probably 1992 or so, the year before I graduated high school! I always loved it though, as it’s meaning is beautiful. Thanks!

[@beatleblev]

When I reread The Hobbit I do a lot of headspace retconning to keep continuity within the Legendarium. Bilbo's ring of invisibility, goes from a mid range D&D magic item to the One Ring to rule them all. Gandalf goes from being an old guy who casts spells to an earthbound angel on a mission from God and the term, Wizard, goes from a general fantasy profession to something far more specific. The same goes for Elrond, the wise old sage from the Hobbit to perhaps the central figure of the Legendarium in that he is both the key to the Silmarillion past and the gateway to the Lord of the Rings and the dawning of the Age of Men. And, he's the only guy in Middle Earth who can look up at the Morning Star and wave and say, "Hi Dad!" On that note, I hope Elrond gets to sail on Vingilot with his dad after his return to the West. He and his brother did not get much time with their dad and, having lost his only daughter (and possibly his sons?), Elrond deserves some family time. So...Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins, many times removed, but totally first cousins. The first conversation between Arwen and Elrond about falling in love with Aragorn must have been intense. If you are Elrond, Option A is: your daughter goes West with an eternally broken heart, or B: she marries your great (add exponential here) nephew and dies before you can blink twice. Elrond gets as many Vingilot rides as he wants. Make it happen Manwe!

[@tominiowa2513]

Other children during the time Elrond and Elros were being raised by Maglor, "Your father's a planet and your mother's a bird!" 😉 If I counted thing up correctly, Aragorn and Arwen are 54 generations removed from having a common ancestor.

[@beatleblev]

@@tominiowa2513 If they had to be kidnapped, I'm glad that Elros and Elrond lived with the one of Feanor's kids that were decent elves when not driven by their foolish vow. As for the generation separation, I'm not sure if that makes their relationship better or worse.

[@Hero_Of_Old]

Isn't there a magic bag in The Hobbit too? Haha

[@emilpeterson7034]

I believe Elrond kept a big part of the kindred of men within himself, knowing it fully or not. I believe the loss of his firstly his brother and then the fall & darkening of nümeror made his love of men stand out. By doing what he did to the heir of Elross by protection of the heir and all it's heirmlooms slows it clearly. By having his sons following teaching them aswell as defending the chieftains of the Dünedain. He also raising their children like his own without hesitation. Imagine his faith and love for men and his other kin. The faith of finding and grooming worthy heir that would come to unite all men against the darkness. Bringing it the age of man. Shows true dedication and what kind of noble hero Elrond was, i believe he never doubted Erus plan either, Imagine the pain of Elrond by raising the heirs who did not make it. Truly the eye of the West in counter to Sauron. Because of Elrond uniting all free people happened and the plans and time to destroy Sauron was put to fruition. Imagine the patience, time will and love for all the free people, especially to bring the age of men. To do what Elrond did for millenias is shows what a character he truly is

[@TheRedBook]

Part of his wisdom would be his understanding of both kindreds, something that most in Middle-earth wouldn't share.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Tolkien: I shall construct an entire language or two, and then a highly detailed world and history in which those languages might exist. Also Tolkien: I don’t feel like coming up with a new name for a character in this children’s story so I’ll just recycle one from my pet project. What difference could it make? 😂

[@TheRedBook]

Haha 😂 I also like that he casually came up with the name Elrond, like it's second nature. Then he probably looked back on some note with another Elrond and went "ahhh shit...".

[@tominiowa2513]

@@TheRedBook - I doubt Tolkien ever used an expletive worse than "bloody".

[@Enerdhil]

🤣😂😆That is hilarious and likely TRUE. Little did Daddy Tolkien know at the time...

[@TheRedBook]

@@tominiowa2513 - 'Twas a joke

[@What.in.a.name.of.Tolkien]

Great content really! love your narrative and analysis! Beautiful work my friend by tolkien! 💯🔥🔥

[@Zephyrbal]

I agree with Tolkien here completely. Coming up with good names is a nightmare.

[@sickjuicysjamshack3580]

On the subject of Tolkien’s revisions, particularly of his writings in the Hobbit, have you done any videos on Gollum and the One Ring and how they changed from the first edition? Are you interested in making videos focusing on Tolkien’s meta-history?

[@TheRedBook]

Yes that's pretty much what this Archives playlist is about - the development of the writings, changes that were made, how those impacted the story we know now, etc. Your idea about the ring is a good one and I could certainly include that as a video - especially since the Fellowship of the Ring itself even references these changes in the story - which I always found to be very clever writing.

[@aarontalksculture4946]

Interesting. I never considered the description of Elrond in the Hobbit from this point of view. I wonder if putting adaptations aside, that Men and Elves have subtle differences in appearance such as height and beauty, perhaps Elrond Half-Elven did appear mannish at times depending on his mood, attire, setting. He was a foster father to the Dunedain Chieftains and his sons spent a lot of time with men. Perhaps sometimes Elrond was mannish to an extent.

[@emilpeterson7034]

Been listening on your videos and just went member. I really love to hear someone as in to Tolkiens legendarium as me. Literally love hearing your personal views in the events from the books. Especially to know the letters, trying to see from his objective (Tolkien). Show that you got great knowledge aswell as detail and research. Which Is great. Love listening to your versions & thoughts on events I've myself think of. Good luck, first time ever I paid anyone on youtube. You'd deserve it 👍

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks very much :)

[@LordTelperion]

This was very insightful, thank you.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you. Just thought I would reply and say the channel is now integrated with Discord. You should be able to join easily now through KZbin :)

[@LordTelperion]

@@TheRedBook Thanks brother. :)

[@Callisto_Arcas]

I recently found your channel. And your format, coupled with the eloquent way you tell the stories are among the best I've seen from Tolkien YT'ers. I would love to support you. Do you have Patreon?

[@TheRedBook]

Very kind of you, thanks for your comment and the gesture. I don't have Patreon. I thought it was maybe presumptuous to start one so soon into my time on KZbin. My first video was back at the end of May this year. I do have a ko-fi account (ko-fi.com/theredbook). No one has bothered with it yet so I haven't set up bonuses for subscriptions yet or anything. I do have some ideas for that kind of thing though. As for Patreon, I'll have to look into that but I just assumed no one would want to support in that way at the moment! edit - added subscriptions

[@Callisto_Arcas]

@@TheRedBook I respect that you don't want to be presumptious. But, I can tell you, your content warrants support and fans will want to if it helps you continue to put out that kind of prime content. And, Patreon is the best for that.

[@TheRedBook]

I'll certainly investigate it further in that case. I suppose part of me was maybe worried that I'd promise certain things for support that I wouldn't be able to deliver, maybe forcing me into a schedule or making content I don't want to make. I guess there are various ways to approach Patreon though. I'll look into this and let you know how it goes :)

[@TheRedBook]

Trying out memberships on ko-fi. Said I would update you if I was going to try something out - ko-fi.com/theredbook . Perhaps Patreon in the future depending how this trial run goes on this other site! I have 3 tiers at the moment.

[@rickythe2nd63]

By far the most interesting video of yours to me. Quite an eye-opener...makes me appreciate Professor Tolkien even more...such amazing story-telling.

[@11_EVERYTHING_OEFx2]

I really love this channel, I hope to see it grow exponentially. Thank you for posting these videos, you have a great voice, good editing, I'm thoroughly impressed with your videos.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, glad you have found the channel and like the content. Exponentially would be good. I used to get sometimes 2 or 3 subscribers a day but since I hit a 1000 subs I don't think it's been beneath 10. So, there's growth. I'm a long way off even the medium sized Tolkien channels though. A lot to do!

[@11_EVERYTHING_OEFx2]

@@TheRedBook Sir, if you keep this content up I have no doubt in time you'll be one of the bigger channels on KZbin, I mean I am just absolutely impressed by your content. I'm gonna share your channel with some Tolkien fb pages if you don't mind, id like some more people to stop by an check out your videos, you have very well thought out information and you don't make it hard to follow, anyone all ages can enjoy your input and I think thats really Important considering Tolkien's work. I couldn't be happier and the best part is you have a great voice, like I said I enjoy other channels but it's hard to listen to them at length when (no offense to them) their voices are annoying as heck, you have a more baritone sort of deep smooth voice. Love it!

[@TheRedBook]

@@11_EVERYTHING_OEFx2 - I don't mind the content being shared, in fact - I'd like people to share it if they think others will enjoy it. I'm also very glad my voice isn't annoying haha, that was probably the biggest worry alongside "I've never edited a video before" when I started the channel!

[@11_EVERYTHING_OEFx2]

@@TheRedBook Man I'm glad you don't mind, I've already shared your channel to a few LoTR pages, two LoTR meme pages that are pretty big, and a silmirillion page as well. I'm extremely excited to see this channel grow! And yeah I know a lot of people are particular about voices and your voice can put an angry bear to sleep, honestly I fell pretty lucky I stumbled across this page while I was listening to Nerd Of The Rings, I saw your page logo on the end of one of his videos for Hobbit day, so I checked it out and this is my new favorite channel, I have all your playlist saved and I'm already 1 listen deep on each video, starting my second go now. Need to soak up all the legendarium info I can lol please keep up the good work, I know It has to be a ton of work man but you're definitely on to something here, this channel is gonna be big soon, I can foresee it easily.

[@TheRedBook]

@@11_EVERYTHING_OEFx2 Thanks for that! Hopefully I can get some new viewers from that. I've not really promoted the channel myself on other pages unless a question has directly been asked about new content or recommended content. Feels weird to push it on others when I'm the one making it. So, it's cool when someone who enjoys the material chooses to do it. At some point i'm going to have to remake the first few videos - they seem pretty rough now when I look back but it was completely new to me as well.. Will see how the channel does. I don't think the material will appeal to the broader audiences but I have steadily seen an increase of viewers and subs over the last few weeks.

[@elliotcrossan6290]

Just finished watching all your videos thus far. Keep up the brilliant work!

[@TheRedBook]

All? :O thanks for that, the next video should be available this Monday :)

[@elliotcrossan6290]

@@TheRedBook excited! I love how philosophical and atmospheric your work is

[@patmullarkey7659]

I very much enjoy your channel. I've been a Tolkien fan for more than 55 years and just when I thought there might not be any original way to present the material.... I chance upon your channel. Well done!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot! I've had a few Tolkien fans like yourself who have enjoyed his work longer than I've been alive leave some comments, and it's always great to hear that the channel appeals :)

[@Crafty_Spirit]

That was a very enjoyable watch. I feel like even the music you use got better. Thanks for sweetening a monday 😁

[@TheRedBook]

Glad it was a good one! I really did like this track, I thought it suited the topic very well and I can't quite explain why. Maybe because it wasn't a creepy topic for once? 😅

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@TheRedBook Probably yes, and the track also felt less monotone than others

[@TheRedBook]

It can be quite difficult getting royalty free music that isn't very short, that's one problem. You end up having to repeat the track throughout the video. I try tracks with some atmosphere though.

[@user-sd7ri9fy4i]

Nice work dude thanks

[@IHateThisHandleSystem]

Very original content. Well done.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks :)

[@Ka_T_ya]

Damn this video is good ! Needs more views !

[@CJ-111]

Great video

[@BernardLangham]

Aragorn, as a Dunedain, is a direct descendent of Elros via the Royal House of Numenor, and is therefore (potentially) Elrond's great-great-great-great...(many more greats)...great grand-nephew. Which might explain Elrond's reluctance regarding his daughter Arwen's marriage intentions. (edit: i see from the end of your video that this also occurred to you. :)

[@TheRedBook]

I think the prime reason, in my mind, is that Elrond would know that Arwen loving Aragorn and being with him would have her 'make her choice'. She'd be lost to Elrond forever. If that is going to happen, then only the best of Men is worthy of such a decision. Aragorn then has to reunite the Kingdoms in Exile - aiding in the final defeat of Sauron. Quite a price!

[@BernardLangham]

iirc, wasn't Bilbo working on a translation of the Lay of Beren and Luthien when Aragorn and the hobbits arrived at Rvendell? Awkward!

[@TheRedBook]

That's a thing I've talked to people about before. Or when he wants to recite about Earendil in the house of Elrond. Bold!

[@anglerfish4161]

@@TheRedBook As Gandalf knew, he was always a shitstarter at heart.

[@Enerdhil]

Thanks, Steven. Great deep dive into Elros and Elrond's origin. I was glued to every word and image and passage. I am learning more and more from your videos that there are many subtle nuances in the "shaping" of the Legendarium. Elrond and Elros being twins is such a great and important part of lore, it is shocking to learn that it happened because of a mistake by Tolkien in using the same name twice. The story is perfect with the mistake corrected. God was blessing the good professor.✝️

[@TheRedBook]

As GirlNextGondor says in her comment on this video, it highlights something great about Tolkien's creative process. He didn't take the easy way out and just have two characters called this but follows the own rules he has set and becomes creative with it.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook Yes, I read her post. It is such a great point. I wish she had made a video with comments like that on Hobbit Day instead of the trashing of the Shire Hobbits video she did make....

[@TheRedBook]

@@Enerdhil - I don't see a problem with that. The theme was Hobbits and she made an interesting video, I thought.

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook I know. It is her opinion and I strongly disagree because it was Hobbit Day. Any other day, I would have just left a comment disagreeing with her. She is a great Tolkien KZbinr and I would love to watch the two of you discuss some of your favorite deep dive topics. It is always good to hear a woman's perspective on the lore........ Except when she trashed the Hobbit Shires on Hobbit Day.🤪

[@carolbriscoe9337]

Very interesting history. Thanks

[@TheRedBook]

Very welcome!

[@MrBernardthecow]

Is agree about the change in the characters of Gandalf and Elrond between the Hobbit and TLOTR. I always thought this was to do with the target audience. His children for the former and his peers for the latter.

[@TheRedBook]

That's certainly plausible. I think there's also Tolkien developing the depth of his Legendarium. I'm sure the time between Hobbit and LotR would have Tolkien considering the figures in his world a bit more - such as making Gandalf a Maia and not just a Wizardly figure like he is in The Hobbit. As a consequence, Gandalf seems loftier and more important in The Lord of the Rings.

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Elrond and Elros, accidental twins! Quite apart from the need to make it all fit the mythology, this makes one think of mortality and immortality in Tolkien's world. Actually, their definitions don't correspond to the "traditional" definitions we are used to, do they? If immortality actually means just "longevity" commensurate with the life of the world itself, and mortality means being free of the confines of the world... And do we know for sure the meaning of the name Elros? Didn't Tolkien write a detailed etymology and then scrap it because it contradicted something that was already published in the Lord of the Rings?

[@TheRedBook]

The term I've seen used more than once is "serial longevity" but for all intents and purposes, we see Elves as immortal - lasting while the world lasts. Serial longevity refers to the fact we don't know what ultimately happens to them all at 'the end'. Elros means Star-foam (el - star) and (ros - foam). Though, ir apparently really means "Elf of the spray" just like Elrond would be "Elf of the cave" but can also mean Star-dome...even though rond is cave. There's also a bit of confusion with Elros when it comes to his old name in Numenor - Indilzar, which became Gimilzor..but then changed again and that name was then reused for another King...

[@GSPfan2112]

You deserve money for this

[@TheRedBook]

*holds open wallet* 😅Thanks, Kevin. I'll take that compliment!

[@RobSojourn]

Well, presumably all Elves are friends with each other (except the Dark Elf who caused troubles for Gondolin), so strictly speaking, all are elf-friends, with other peoples being noteworthy of the title, where it may be assumed for other elves. (Note, this is just a spur of the moment thought, and not intended for great discussion)

[@TheRedBook]

No, I do appreciate your thoughts and I do get what you are saying. I do see it as an honourary title that is bestowed upon some very noteworthy figures. As it stands, only Elrond is of that kindred and one considered an Elf-friend but even he occupies a special place as Half-elven. It would have been interesting to see if Tolkien kept the description I mentioned as well as that title if he had continued his rewrite of The Hobbit!

[@tominiowa2513]

King Thingol of Doriath refused to be friends with any of the Noldor who were followers of Fëanor.

[@RobSojourn]

@@tominiowa2513 Wow, i guess the title was more special that i at first realized. I know its tough for me to count the number of my close friends and i have only lived 40 years, not for thousands!

[@anglerfish4161]

@@tominiowa2513 Or rather, Fëanor managed to make enemies out of everyone ever and it came with a splash effect

[@DarthBop]

I'm guessing the Mr Tolkien never anticipated have his stories scrutinized to death.

[@tominiowa2513]

Why is Elrond known as "half-elven" when he is 1/2-man, 7/16-elf, and 1/16-Maia? One thing in the video which I thought might be a potential mistake is not - the ending of the 3rd Age is defined by Elrond, Galadriel, and the rest of the Noldor leaving Middle Earth for Valinor. Why is this the ending of the 3rd Age rather than the destruction of the One Ring?

[@theradgegadgie6352]

Same reason as the Second Age ended with the Battle of Mount Doom, instead of the Downfall of Numenor: Tolkien had two options and flipped a coin.

[@TheRedBook]

Fractions don't come into it. It's really more to do with the choice. Even Arwen has the title despite her mother being an Elf and her father being the one who chose to be of that kindred. Yet, the descendants of Elros are not called Half-elven. Think of the choice over the specific DNA. As for the potential mistake. It is not a mistake. The Appendices state: "They come to the Grey Havens. Frodo and Bilbo depart over Sea with the Three Keepers. The end of the Third Age." Why this and not Sauron's defeat? The ages seem to end with events specifically special and important to the race of Elves. Morgoth's defeat at the end of the First Age and many Elves passing over the Sea following that. The Second Age with Sauron's defeat, the maker of the Rings and he that led to Elves and Men forming the Last Alliance to defeat him. The Third Age ends not with Sauron's defeat but with the passing of the Three Keepers over the Sea, the passing of Galadriel, Elrond, and other important figures, ushering in the Age of Men and a symbolic "passing of the Elves". Sauron's defeat at the end of the Third Age is far more significant for the race of Men who basically become the Stewards and guardians of Middle-earth following his downfall. And all of this is also why the Second Age does not change with the huge event that was the Downfall of Numenor - because again that affects everyone but is more significant for the race of Men than the Elves.

[@anglerfish4161]

Good to know WE aren't the only ones having trouble keeping track of names... GDI Tolkien.

[@TheRedBook]

How this didn't happen more often with all those names baffles me!

[@davidstoyanoff]

Bilbo was obviously confused about who Elrond was in The Hobbit. And Elrond just let him go on believing it.

[@davidkulmaczewski4911]

I always wondered how Elrond could blithely tell Gandalf that his sword was once carried by the King of Gondolin, his own great grandfather. I would have figured he'd want to keep it as an heirloom, or that Gandalf would want to present it to him as such, out of respect. TIL.

[@TheRedBook]

Do you think that if Elrond of The Hobbit was more like the figure we see in The Lord of the Rings that this interaction would be different? I suspect it would be a far loftier presentation of the sword if it happened in The Lord of the Rings.

[@davidkulmaczewski4911]

@@TheRedBook Absolutely. Gandalf would have offered up the sword to Elrond as a token of respect after learning it's history... but then perhaps Elrond would return it to Gandalf, knowing that he would likely need it more than he. Mirroring what Cirdan did with his Ring.

[@tsuchan]

I don't understand the assertion that Legolas Greenleaf in Gondolin in the first age is different than Legolas Greenleaf in Lord of the Rings in the third age. - There are no arguments provided of why this can't be the same Legolas. It's not even questioned whether the accounts reference the same person: it's just asserted as an a priori assumption that they are not. - Applying all the justifications discussed in the video concerning Elrond and Glorfindel are reasons for prima facie acceptance that they are the same. - In addition, additional reasons Tolkien gave applying to Elrond and Glorfindel about their distinctive names amplify multifold to Legolas: not only does no other Legolas appear than Legolas Greenleaf, but no other Greenleaf appears except for Legolas Greenleaf. - Further, there are no contradictions that prevent us from accepting they are one and the same person. For example: --- it doesn't contradict some age we've been told of him, neither of his father, neither of his grandfather: check --- None of those are high elves, and all three of those can have been born in the age of the Sun: check So if you want to use some argument that excuses the documented 'rules' of the legendarium, why not just say "Look, you know what, neither of them exist: it's all made-up". And touché, you have me. If that's the argument, then what is the purpose of all the hundred channels discussing the lore of Middle Earth?

[@TheRedBook]

Well, Legolas of Gondolin is only mentioned twice in very early versions of the Legendarium and isn't brought up again. The best evidence, except for saying that Legolas of Gondolin would be of the Noldor when Legolas of the Third Age wasn't, would be the 2nd mention of him in The Fall of Gondolin... "Legolas 'or Green-leaf was a man of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressea named by the Eldar there Laiqalasse; but the book of Rumil saith further hereon.'" That's from The Fall of Gondolin notes. So, they can't be the same figure. Legolas in the Third Age has never witnessed the Sea and the Legolas of Gondolin was said to still live in Tol Eressea. He can't be in Tol Eressea still but also wandering Middle-earth, and he can't have never seen the Sea but crossed it... But I will admit that the Legolas section was brief and I just assumed people would see them as different figures. I'll try not to be so brief when I make a claim next time - I tend to source this kind of stuff in the video and didn't this time!

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook Legolas of the LOTR is also a Sindar elf, not Noldor.

[@TheRedBook]

@@istari0 Yes, it is assumed that the Elf of Gondolin would be of the Noldor but I didn't reply with that as a reason as I guessed the OP would say it wasn't stated anywhere so wasn't evidence.

[@ruhalajn]

What are your thoughts on elves having pointed ears? It never crossed my mind that their ears would be any different than men's until the movies came out.

[@TheRedBook]

It's funny because there is no mention of pointed ears in The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, or The Silmarillion. The mention of pointed ears actually comes from a linguistic text, which I'm sure the movie makers had never heard of. Tolkien wrote in the Etymologies from the late 30s that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human". He also said "only slightly pointed and 'elvish' ". So, I don't think it's extreme or anything but they are definitely pointed.

[@ruhalajn]

@@TheRedBook awesome, thanks. I'm sure they had no idea

[@MagusMarquillin]

I'm guessing someone influential to early DnD read that, and we can thank them for it becoming a main staple for all Elves - either that or they were copied it from Star Trek's Elf-like Vulcans and it just happened to align with what Tolkien wrote in an obscure essay.

[@mos4396]

👏

[@badcomment6353]

so this is why the choice of Elros to be among men did not have a proper explanation. I feel that that choice could be interesting if expounded more

[@theeffete3396]

It's interesting, until you realize Aragorn marries his cousin.

[@TheRedBook]

If you really want a headache, it's possible to use the family tree to explain how Arwen is related to herself.

[@julias2704]

I think Galadriel is also a distant cousin of Celeborn.