The Ainur | Their Differing Nature and Power

[@Enerdhil]

"With creativity and greatness being born of disparity and even inequality...." These are some of the most beautiful and powerful words I have read in a long time, very poetic.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm just glad people realise that inequality doesn't necessarily always mean the strong lording over the weak. I think I made my case for the necessity within the ranks of the Ainur :D

[@Enerdhil]

@@TheRedBook That is what I love about the phrase. Perceived weakness does not mean uselessness. It is a beautiful concept and reminds me of Scripture verses that say all parts of the body have a function and a place, even those parts that are perceived to be "lesser." They are all together a "complete" body.

[@Marcus-ki1en]

The "Hierarchy of the Heavens" as it were. The Orchestra analogy is perfect: Melchor as first chair could conduct, but not play all the instruments. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but only when the parts act together as the whole. Thank you again for a fantastic video. Starting off 2022 strong already! There is parallel with Melchor and Lucifer - the first among the Angels, who coveted the act and ability of creation and rebelled against his and The Creator.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you Marcus - some have disagreed with the idea of Melkor being a conductor figure, which is understandable, but the orchestra idea seems to be a good way of picturing it. The parallels with Melkor and Lucifer probably deserve a video of their own!

[@thegreatwanderer2023]

@@TheRedBook Dumitru/Sasha Bogdan from Quora here: perhaps you could do a video about parallels between characters of Tolkien's legendarium and some of real-life mythologies or religions: Morgoth - Satan, Sauron - Satan & Antichrist, Gandalf- Odin & Christ, Feanor - Prometheus & Cain etc (though undoubtedly not Tolkien's intention, I always found Tom Bombadil to be similar to the characters of "Holy Wednesday", "Holy Thursday" and "Holy Friday" in Romanian folklore: all 4 are characters who are tied to forests over whose denizens they seem to have some magical power, all 4 look human but are actually strange spirits of mysterious origin, all 4 aid the heroes of their stories without directly opposing/battling the antagonist). Your answers on Quora also convinced me to make more comprehensive and persuasive answers there as well, so thanks for being inspirational in addition to these great videos! It's always a pleasure to see what you come up with, both here and on Quora, keep it up!

[@LGManDee]

I love the idea of the Music as discussing ability and creativity. The idea that Eru states, "I will hearken..." is almost like a knowing that even as the great composer having an understanding of all the notes, all the possible arrangements of said notes, that if you allow a virtuoso of each instrument to write a symphony to a theme of your choosing, it should in theory surprise and delight even you. The idea that Melkor's gifts are to understand the rudiments enough to be proficient, but allow and encourage those through acknowledgement of their own specific greatness would be a huge character hurdle for one who wanted to be a virtuoso in all things, but was not created to be this way... it is an excellent explanation of his internal conflict and a possible glimpse into the self loathing that would perhaps be within his self narrative.

[@freeshrugs1]

The disparity in power between the Ainur was what got me hooked on the silmarillion in the first place. It felt so much more immersive to imagine the Ainur as a people as diverse as any who dwelled in middle earth (albeit more powerful than most), rather than a uniform order with with a rigid distribution of power. Tolkien was a master at making all of the beings in his fantasy feel like real parts of history, and he did so by giving them real human traits that you can experience for yourself.

[@TheRedBook]

Well put :). Things would be... Boring, if all these figures were just the same!

[@nazgullord3198]

I often think about this topic, and how Tolkien seemed to treat power a lot more fluently than a lot of people understand. Many for instance dismiss the thought of Ungoliant being of the Ainur (or specifically a Maia) because she bested Melkor. I'd argue that there's still every bit a chance that she was one. The key thing to remember is that she *grew* in size and power after consuming the light of the trees. She wasn't always that great. And Melkor himself had been diminished by his efforts. Power in Tolkien's characters isn't static. This is perhaps more obviously apparent in the villains, but they can grow or diminish depending on their circumstances.

[@TheRedBook]

I hope you enjoy the first video of 2022. I hope this answers your question (Rigel 7, Phil Char, and Barliman B). Plenty more to come, and I will be able to share details on these videos through the community tab. As always, feel free to leave suggestions, comments, and ideas. I add them all to the giant unmanageable spreadsheet that's getting out of control... Also, a happy birthday to Tolkien himself. Born 130 years ago! Channel membership - kzbin.info/door/POz2P0OxWp0ij0K4BsLsRwjoin

[@npickle54]

It's been a great day for Tolkien content today

[@TheRedBook]

@@npickle54 Oh, have a few channels posted today?

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

@@TheRedBook good evening Mister Red Book. I'm curious so I'm asking from what part of the world are you exactly. I detect something particular in your English.

[@TheRedBook]

@@alexiachimciuc3199 Hello! Yes, English is my first language, I am from Scotland :)

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

@@TheRedBook 😁 near the end of the video I did recognize the Scottish accent! Cheers from Romania! And a good night i got to go to bed.

[@alexshadowfax1119]

Very relevant topic, even today with the idea that complete equality is attainable, I believe not only is hierarchy or inequality inevitable, it's necessary and completely natural. Thanks for the video. Have a great day everyone.

[@TheRedBook]

Agreed Alex, inequality does not always mean something negative - it's just natural and I can't see the Ainur (except Melkor) looking down on others of their order with arrogance and pride. All work together to accomplish greatness.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Another brilliant video, and the analogy of an Orchestra would please even the Professor I think, as it is perfect in describing the usefulness and skills of each of the Ainur, and why Eru relied upon each and every single one of them. It is interesting to think what Melkor might have achieved had he not gone rogue, yet he needed to, to an extent for there to be a story. I imagine he might have been 'King of the Valar' himself, had he stayed the path and had self-discipline and humility, likely he would have been given everything he sought to steal and destroy later. But his own cruelty, savagery and lack of respect for his fellow Ainur proved to be his undoing.

[@TheRedBook]

Melkor is such an interesting proposition because no matter what he did he would have furthered the Music. If he hadn't strayed and was able to use his talents for others and not just himself, there would be wonders of creation. Though, he did stray and was still able to achieve wonders of creation without even wanting to. I think Manwe would always be destined to be King due to his understanding and relationship with Eru but Melkor would be the greatest instrument available to him.

[@shanenolan8252]

Cheers. Liked the visuals a lot ( and the words of course) i always look at the music as an orchestra or a choir. With melkor its like a counterpoint in classical music. ( two competing melodies the creates a better new melody) ( after the discord)

[@TheRedBook]

Always a pleasure Shane.

[@LeHobbitFan]

Now there's another subject I never gave much thought about and turns out to actually be fascinating! ^^ Comparing the vast diversity of powers and abilities between all the Ainur with an orchestra makes complete sense within the context of the Great Theme of Illúvatar: each has a part to play that is his own, and his alone. And naturally, the smallest and (in appearance) meekest creatures of all can turn out to be crucially important to the Fate of Arda (much like, for example, some hairy-footed individuals we know so well).

[@TheRedBook]

Yeah, I never thought much on it either until a few people asked it. That's why I covered the part at the beginning about the other races. I always just thought "Well, why would they be equal?" but people seem to think the Ainur would be. Seems it's by design that they aren't, all for the betterment of the Music and beyond!

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

I think one of the things that sets Melkor apart from other Ainur is that he is pluripotent. The Silmarillion says he had a fair share of all his brothers' powers. It seems to me that Melkor would act as the chaotic and entropic aspect of several elements of Ëa: Aule participated in the "ordely" geological formation of Earth, whereas Melkor would act as seismic-destructive activies in Arda. The Ainur, in the great music, would be a kind of "Demiurgos/Demiurges" who perfomed the so-called "Creation of Concepts" that form Ëa: Energy, matter, light, darkness, gravity, life, death, etc. Quote from the Parma Eldalamberon XVII: "These fanar they (Ainur) assumed when after their demiurgic activities they came and dwelt in Arda (the realm), that is the Earth; and they did so because of their love for the chieldren of Eru, for whon they were to prepare the world, and for a time to govern;"

[@TheRedBook]

Great comment Rafael, fascinating explanation of the differences between these figures. I really want to explore the demiurge in a video but it's such a hefty topic, and requires some proper research. . As a basic concept it's all there - the One God on the outside, the 'gods' on the inside carrying out and maintaining. Hopefully, it's something I make sooner rather than later because I find it interesting to read about.

[@alexart9504]

Please note how this underlines his similarity to humans, who have none of the outstanding features of other animals but have instead a versatility that makes them more adaptive and, in the end, powerful.

[@beatleblev]

Thanks for addressing this topic in a meaningful way with a focus on harmony and the way Eru intended the Ainur to work together to create wonders never before imagined. Even Melkor got in on the act unintentionally when he chilled the airs of Manwe and the waters of Ulmo to make snow. It has been my experience that these discussions usually devolve into a who would beat who in a death match which do not really interest me. I do think that your discussion of harmony and specialty bring to light they way in which the Ainur lose their native strength of spirit when they choose to squander their effort on works that are opposed to the Themes put forth by Eru or impede the work of another Ainu in discordant ways.

[@TheRedBook]

You read my mind. It can be a slippery slope in any discussion about "power". I thought for ages about how to even title the video. What power even means deserves its own video. Even in conflict with one another, I've never imagined the Ainur all just throwing fisticuffs, except Tulkas of course. Battles of will and authority more like...

[@beatleblev]

@@TheRedBook Sure Melkor can turn mountains to valleys and forests to tundra, perhaps even stars to black holes, but get the Dark One into a bar where Tulkas is the Lord of laughter, good times, and kicking butt and He Who Arises in Might will find himself inexplicably drunk and tied into a pretzel with Ungoliant's legs wrapped around him in ways he would not have previously thought possible. Does it frustrate Melkor that he can destroy worlds and minds but can never beat Tulkas at Shuffleboard? Other Ainur related questions that I have include: 1. Did Saruman wake a grumpy Maia that helped Aule make Caradhras to help block the passing of the Fellowship? Was the blizzard his way of saying: "GET OFF MY LAWN," ? 2. Did Goldberry's dad help Ulmo fashion the Brandywine or maybe the Hoarwell? Is that how she and good ole Tom met? 3. Is it implied that other Maia attach themselves to the part of Arda that they helped materialize or am I reading too much into the story that isn't there? 4. Who is Olorin' patron Vala? He is associated with fire and light which implies Varda, but also is considered the wisest of the Maiar which implies Manwe. He hangs out in Lorien and seems to function as Tolkien's version of of a muse in Aman and that implies Irmo. He also gets therapist training from Nienna to boot. Gandalf is a social butterfly in the West that is forgotten.

[@neant2046]

An ode to diversity is such a good way to start the year! Honestly, “why this question should be asked in the first place” was my first thought :D But your explanation turned out to be much more exciting than the topic, and the analogy with elves and men is just perfect :)

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you once again! I think if it had just been asked once, i would have not bothered making a video. I'm glad a few people asked because it ended up becoming an interesting topic for me.

[@neant2046]

@@TheRedBook So am I. The question turned out to have an unexpectedly philosophical connotation, which is right down my alley)

[@TheRedBook]

@@neant2046 I think you will like the next video. It involves "prophecy" so might cause some head scratching when it comes to "would that happen if that hadn't been said?" questions.

[@neant2046]

​@@TheRedBook Oh, yes, I like hypothetical things like that!

[@TheRedBook]

I'll be sharing an update on it later today or tomorrow!

[@Pernoctate]

The secret of the power of all the children of Iluvatar is "being as communion". It is something the shadows cannot comprehend.

[@pmickeyny6002]

Really beautifully written. Love the orchestra metaphor. What does it mean to have "greater" power? It can change based on our perception. Strength is impressive to those that seek power, but healing is certainly a greater gift to those who are ill. Sometimes you appreciate the horns, sometimes the cellos.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you :) Nicely put. It's one way of explaining the 'power' of some of the Valar over other beings. People like to point out Tulkas for his might but he is not one of the Aratar. Nienna is but people obsessed with power as a synonym for might can't seem to understand what is meant by power when we talk about someone like Nienna.

[@KipIngram]

This is a great video and I agree with you 100%, both in terms of Tolkien's intent and the applicability of these ideas to the real world.

[@joshuabourne8313]

I'm only 1 minute into the video and shimmering with excitement for the rest, but I had to stop to say when you talk about answering these questions, I can't thank you enough. Other channels covering Tolkien's legendarium are great, but this channel goes into the deeper meaning behind the questions. Not just summarising Tolkien's stories and providing commentary, but into the very world building process itself. Everything from why the Ainur differ in power, to what Sauron's motives are that you covered is a tremendous achievement. On that note, I ask if a video can be created on how Gandalf (or Olorin as he was known in Valinor) and his influences in Valinor, from his time with Nienna, the Vala of sorrow/pity I believe, to his time with Manwe himself would have influenced his actions, or inaction, in Middle Earth.

[@TheRedBook]

Thank you Joshua. It's pretty much the 'mission statement' of the channel and a reason I made it. I didn't want to just do histories or biographies of characters since that was well covered. I prefer the why questions over the what questions. Don't get me wrong, I like throwing in the history and backstory in videos as well but my favourite videos to make are the ones where I can share what I think something means. Good idea about Gandalf. I do have more video ideas about Gandalf and really like the ones I have made so far (Sauron's misunderstanding of Gandalf, Gandalf's death, Gandalf's healing of despair, Gandalf and Durin's Bane). I would like to look at Gandalf's hesitancy in coming to Middle-earth, Gandalf with the One Ring, and I think an exploration of his past in the West and how it helped him in Middle-earth would be a good one. I could probably tie this in with what his task was in Middle-earth and how he achieved it - more than just defeating Sauron but acting as a Steward for Middle-earth.

[@Sportsfilmappreciator]

@@TheRedBook that would be great, would love to help, share insights or contribute in some way.

[@Looshmal]

That's a heck of a way to kick off the new year! You never fail to impress, sir. Fantastic.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks!

[@rafaelgustavo7786]

I think that Sauron has an ability (by using the Morgoth Ingredient as a prerequisite for his "magic") to "cancel out" his enemies' powers: a) Sauron captures Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion: (...) when the power of Ulmo was in that water (...); b) Sauron tanked and repelled lightning bolts sent by Manwë on the temple of Melkor in Numenor; c) Samwise Gamgee at Sammath Naur in his great need drew out the phial of Galadriel, but it was pale and cold, because all other powers were here subdued; d) And power of Galadriel in Lothlorien. Dol Guldur armies could not have destroyed Lórien unless Sauron himself had arrived. This sets him apart from other Maiar. Sauron must also possess a pluripotency (with the use of Morgoth Element in the matter) to a lesser degree than Melkor/Morgoth.

[@TheRedBook]

Interesting. I have usually equated that with authority - such as when Sauron relinquished control of his isle and his works were undone, or when Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur. I like the idea of the Melkor Ingredient playing a part in Sauron's own power though, much as he used it to create the One Ring itself - why wouldn't it be of use to him in furthering his own goals and completing his designs as you say...

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@TheRedBook You understand that Melkor gave part of his power to Sauron,this one originally being a maiar of Aule,the Valar from the sphere of creation .After his betrayal Sauron gained control of things like fire,weather,the dead ecc that he couldnt had control before since they were beyond his sphere of power

[@Diegoromir]

A Maia is influenced by the spheres of influence and powers of the Vala he serves, as Melkor shared a little of each of the characteristics and powers of all the Valar, Sauron certainly learned a lot from his master and was influenced by him, this shows, in my opinion, why Sauron was such a powerful Maia, having some of the characteristics of all the Valar. But I also believe that Sauron used the "Morgoth element"(that surely he would know better than anyone, being the greatest servant of Melkor) deposited and impregnated in the World and everything, to further strengthen his powers.

[@istari0]

@@TheRedBook I too think Sauron resembled in his master in having abilities in many areas instead of just a few. This leads me to think that Sauron was indeed the mightiest of the Maia overall. The question that interests me now is this: how much of this was due to his Ilúvatar given gifts vs what he learned/acquired from Melkor after becoming Sauron? There had to be something in particular that led Melkor to make Sauron his chief lieutenant.

[@Elia-fn8jv]

@@Diegoromir well the corruption of Morgoth was world wide,i dont think that Sauron could ve used it all,to increment his power he had to rely on his old sphere of Aule(even though he didnt serve him anymore)to create the one ring

[@amirym7847]

I just love the way how your videos are created ! Atmospheric, Darkened & Mysterious ! Also your low voice is stunning and syncs very deep with the atmosphere of your videos. This is the true type of a how Tolkien’s lore channel should be . Not like other channels that telling the stories with child-ish form … Keep it up Man !

[@TheRedBook]

Very kind of you, I'm always happy to hear that the content appeals to people and not just the words but the presentation. I try hard to make it stand out!

[@JoshLewa]

Another amazing essay. Fantastic music. Thanks for making some of the best content on Tolkien!

[@TheRedBook]

Cheers, Josh! Good stuff out there, so it's great to be considered one of the best!

[@istari0]

I have to admit that my first reaction upon seeing the video title was to wonder why anyone would think they would be equally powerful. But as always you produced an insightful video that got me thinking about things. I do have one question. Do we know anything about the Ainur that did not enter Arda? What their abilities might have been? Why they might have chosen to not enter Arda? What have they been doing in the Timeless Halls?

[@TheRedBook]

I was in the same boat. I thought it was a very weird question but the fact it was always asked of the Ainur and not Elves or Men made me realise it's their very nature that is confusing to people - so that's the path I took when making it. All we know really is that they are vast in number . We also really know that Melkor would be the mightiest of not only those who entered but the mightiest of ALL of them. Since Eru declared it after the Music itself and before the descent into Arda. We have to just imagine that those who entered were the ones closely tied with what they became authorities over on earth. Ulmo became the Lord of the Waters - that must mean that during the Music of the Ainur he was one of the Ainur who played a major part in the shaping of that vision and with what Eru eventually 'created'. Others who didn't descend would have played a role but Ulmo would be so invested that he wanted to enter into the world. That's how I personally view it. So, the 'abilities' of those who didn't enter may be manifold but perhaps none of them had greater care for what was made than those who entered - otherwise they would have? Unless the appeal of staying with Eru was greater than witnessing what was made and taking part in it?

[@NickBR57]

Nice! Very good analogy too as they are making music to create Ea. Thank you.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, Nick :)

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Good stuff sir, indeed the disparate voices, powers etc is what creates the harmony that i the music of the ainur. Happy new year too you and keep up the good work.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for the comment jose and happy new year to you!

[@teddykillz71]

Amazing imagery and storytelling putting together Tolkien's works. Absolutely love your channel. Cheers!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for the support Jason, I repeat myself often by saying this but I am genuinely appreciative of such support for the channel!

[@JustInCase_007]

Another awesome video, started off on the right foot. I have to say this is one of my favorite videos you’ve done to date.

[@TheRedBook]

That's great to hear. I thought this would just be a little video to start off the year to tide people over but it seems to be one people really like.

[@PleaseNThankYou]

That was very well done friend!

[@TheMercian13]

I love this video. I feel it was done in good taste, and done accurately.

[@TheRedBook]

I appreciate that, thank you :D

[@fifi-trixibell1888]

Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels and Angels. These are the 9 choirs of Angels. Each with their own level powers. Seraphim being the mightiest. Lucifer(Satan) was the mightiest among them just like Melkor. He was a Seraphim, but that being said he was cast down from Heaven by Michael who was only an Archangel. There a little parallel 😊Beautiful video as always , you are very insightful my good sir.

[@TheRedBook]

Nice comment, thank you!

[@johns1625]

Each of the Ainur are born of an independent part of the mind of Illuvatar, this is why the disparity is so great. Melkor represents the part that knows know rival, that knows he is the king of kings, the alpha and omega, but Melkor was created impotent in ability to create, but he does hold a share in the powers of all the other Ainur, which is why he is able to freeze water or heat stone or torment spirits and even lay curses.

[@milosnackovic9607]

Happy new year, you gave us a nice present (video). Looking forward to halls of Mandos, fall of Gondolin and many others, all the best to all

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks Milos. Happy New year to you as well :)

[@draoidh6479]

This video is sooo beautiful and we'll made.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot!

[@teresad7102]

That was beautiful; thank you!

[@jorsch4689]

Beautifully explained! You've got a new subscriber; I look forward to seeing your other work.

[@TheRedBook]

Many thanks for subscribing, very happy you enjoyed the video :)

[@annamnatsakanyan4040]

Great interpretation, great video (one of your best so far? :D) and great background music!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, Anna. Yeah, I have basically stuck with two composers for all my videos and decided to try a different one this time, I think it worked! Glad you enjoyed it. I thought this would just be a little video to start the year but it's doing well :)

[@hazbojangles2681]

Great video!

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks a lot!

[@Sym0S]

always a pleasure

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks for stopping by again !

[@VishnuZutaten]

Interesting, and insightfull.

[@KipIngram]

I think this is a question that never would have even been asked in earlier times. It's only been the last few decades that we've tried to get on this "everyone has to be equal" bandwagon. Well, sorry, but no. People are not all equal. We're all equally *worthy* of respect, tolerance, freedom, and so on, but we are very, very different from one another, in our abilities, our perspectives, and many other things. it's natural and proper for a structure to arise based on these differences, and the modern tendency to want to dismantle that is a folly that I hope we'll eventually recover from.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

I wonder where you got that orchestra analogy from? 🤔😂 Great stuff as always, and happy new year!

[@TheRedBook]

Happy new year to you! I don't get the first part haha, is it because of the "Music" of the Ainur or is it a common analogy people use? I'd never read about it before :D

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

@@TheRedBook well I mean the text pretty well begs for that sort of analogy lol

[@TheRedBook]

@@TolkienLorePodcast Certainly is, which makes me more surprised that no one ever seems to explain it that way!

[@patmullarkey7659]

Please ponder why Saruman, who was learned in ring lore, didn't realize, especially during the White Council, that Galadriel and Gandalf had rings of power. And why isn't he interested in them if he does know? When he traps Gandalf the ring would be a factor in Saruman's attack, no? Wouldn't it be tempting to grab it for his arsenal? It also could have been used to bribe others to his side. I have never been able to understand Saruman's apparent disregard of the Elf rings.

[@TheRedBook]

Hi Pat, yes I actually have a fully completed script for this. I wrote it last year and didn't record it because just as I was about to, another channel made a video about it. It was a strange coincedence. But when another channel makes a video I am thinking about making, I tend to delay it until later. It will be a video though, I will make sure to fit it into the schedule :)

[@Aurora-qn2dx]

Tolkien chose interesting names for these characters. Lovely choice of artwork and narration...have you thought of writing a fantasy or history book yourself?

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, I liked the artwork for this - some amazing pieces related to the Ainur and so many interpretations of them. I wish. Any fantasy work I imagine becomes Arda without me even realising it. My own version of it basically. I'd love to write some material to fill in gaps in the Legendarium but just for a bit of fun. I have been working on a massive Dagor Dagorath explanation. How I imagine the build up and the aftermath. Would be cool to make that a long video in the future or something. My dream is more to be able to write a book about Tolkien's Legendarium with the blessing of those who have the power to sue me otherwise...

[@Aurora-qn2dx]

@@TheRedBook most times reality gets in the way of a dream..esp when its got to do with the Tolkien Estate😅 but a single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities..Tolkien said that. Looking foward to your next videos.. awsome channel.

[@TheRedBook]

@@Aurora-qn2dx - Appreciate that :) and who knows what the future will bring. I just want to avoid the David Day route and do a sneaky unofficial thing where I can't talk about anything with any sort of depth

[@cherub3624]

Well done.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanking you Chris!

[@AndyCutright]

I would commission a choral piece for Chanticleer of The Ainulindalë if had the money. I would love to hear that amazing choir sing a piece written by one of the great choral composers, absent any other instruments. I don't like the musical interpretations I've heard that include instruments.

[@TheRedBook]

I'm surprised no one has tried something similar by now. I always expect I'll open up KZbin one day and that will be in my recommended. I appreciate the instrumental versions I've heard but I don't think they represent it as I'd imagine it - which seems to be similar to you.

[@porkflaps4717]

The Silmarillion read by Matin Shaw is so awesome

[@TheRedBook]

I like it but I'm surprised there aren't more. Audiobooks always focus on LotR.

[@cherub3624]

Do you think that the embodiment of Gandalf and the other Istari is different than the physical form that the Balrog and other Maiar took? Both seem to be capable of death, but there also seem to be some big differences in terms of the wizard's powers being restricted to a degree (after they came to Middle Earth), whereas the balrog's and Sauron were not. I ask because clearly these Maiar already had physical forms in Valinor before they left, so I've always been curious if the restrictions of power were then added to their existing forms or if they were given entirely new bodies to journey to Middle Earth in. I know that most likely any answer would be just speculation based on the writings. I've also always been curious if all Maiar had the ability to reform a physical body over time as well, or if it was only Sauron due to being aided by the ring.

[@TheRedBook]

Pretty big question Chris, more than worthy of a video dedicated to explaining it. For what it is worth, there is a difference between the physical forms of the likes of Sauron and Durin's Bane - even Melian, when compared to the likes of Gandalf and Saruman. Saruman and Gandalf seemed to be given very real bodies of Men, containing their angelic spirit within. Subject to the weariness and weaknesses of the flesh. They couldn't just abandon them without death or I'm assuming some blessing of the Valar upon return to the West - I've always wondered what happened to Gandalf the White when he returned West when it came to that incarnate form. But for Durin's Bane and Sauron, they seem to be self-incarnated, becoming dependent on those forms the longer they remained in them. Forms of their own making but necessary for them due to their desire to interact so much with the physical world and its inhabitants. Evil being committed in them, binding them more and more to them. If they are taken from them, they greatly desire to quickly return to them. Melian is the same but for good reasons. She procreated on earth, meaning she was bound to that physical form as she in essence became a part of the world itself through her actions. As I said, I want to do a video on such a topic because it is quite complex!

[@cherub3624]

@@TheRedBook I've always wondered the same thing about Gandalf the White. Thanks for the in-depth reply. It would make a good video. I certainly haven't seen the topic covered.

[@TheRedBook]

Most avoid such complex topics 😂 but there's enough text to dive into it and i hope you are around when that video appears! Whenever that may be :D

[@cherub3624]

Oh definitely. You're my new favorite LotR channel.

[@unlimitedpowaaahh5651]

​@@TheRedBook What do you think about these passages from Morgoth's ring: "Melkor sued for pardon in the Ring of Doom; the Valar wished to put him to death, but NONE CAN SLAY ANY OF THE VALARIN RACE, nor remove them from Ea, save Eru only." "Then the Valar returned to the Land of Aman, and Melkor was led captive, bound hand and foot and blindfold; and he was brought to the Ring of Doom. There he lay upon his face before the feet of Manwe, and he sued for pardon and freedom, recalling his kinship with Manwe. But his prayer was denied, and it is said that in that hour the Valar would fain have put him to death. BUT DEATH NONE CAN DEAL TO ANY OF THE RACE OF THE VALAR ,neither can any, save Eru only, remove them from Ea, the World that is, be they willing or unwilling." How would you define death in this case? If it’s the destruction of physical form, then does it mean that bodies of the Valar are immune to harm? I've seen people on some internet, Tolkien forums saying that this is the case but I've always found this idea quite strange and contradictory to the rest of the Legendarium.

[@albdamned577]

I like the analogy of the orchestra but Melkor wasn't meant to be the conductor, that was Manwe. Metaphorically speaking, Manwe was the chair of the first violins section, historically where the conductors originally came from. He would work on his part but if the orchestra needed help playing together he would rise up and start conducting. It was only around the time of Beethoven when the orchestra would have a full time conductor. There are plenty of positions around the orchestra that Melkor could have fit into like transcriptionist, stage hand, etc. It sounds crummy but without those the orchestra couldn't even play the music (who's gonna raise the curtains for the audience? lol). If they were playing the 1812 overture he would be the canoneer even! With these roles, I can see how he would claim to be master of the house, but he wanted to control the music as well, something beyond his purview. the audience would then be the Children of Eru Ilúvatar. It is interesting then to consider the value of the Music of the Ainur analogously to how we listen to music in real life.

[@TheRedBook]

I guess so but I suppose if I expanded upon what I said in the video I would mean that Melkor with the talent he holds, if he worked with others, would be able to wield the gifts of others for his own creativity. Instead of playing all instruments alone.

[@albdamned577]

@@TheRedBook A great many people in the background of music see themselves as a buttress for stainless windows in the cathedral that is music (without the buttress, the window would collapse and shatter). It does require a lot of musical knowledge to do a lot of the background roles. For example the stage hand needs to know the positions of the chairs, how many chairs to a musical stand, how much space is needed for the different instruments, where the different music parts go to. The transcriptionist needs to know what cleft to write in, if the instrument is a transposed instrument or not, and how many copies to make. This knowledge lets the musicians arrive on time and focus on their part. Musicians can be fickle at times, I knew a flutist that became rather upset that he had to carry his own music stand and chair onto the concert stage. It makes me wonder had Melkor done nothing, would the music fall apart?

[@TheRedBook]

I think if he had done nothing then there would only be 1 theme with little creativity. His Discord led to wonders mixed with grief and strife. Those challenges then led to greater glory down the line. Melkor was fundamental!

[@KipIngram]

I think the answer to this question is obvious. Throughout history there have been leaders and followers, and no one questioned the validity of such a structure. Companies have employees and management. Military forces have soldiers and officers. Etc. - it's how *everything* is structured, and this was, if anything, even more ever-present at the time Tolkien lived and wrote than it is today. The bottom line is that the Valar were created to be the leaders, and the Maiar were made to be their followers. Simple as that. Now, you can also ask why the *Valar* weren't equally powerful. It's clear that Melkor was mightier than the other Valar, even combined, probably. I think the only way to explain this is that an integral part of Eru's plan was that Ea would pass through a period of hardship and strife, and he had a degree of prescience about this. He *knew* that Melkor would serve as the focal point of the darkness, so he was suitably equipped with power to properly fulfill his role, which is exactly what Eru intended from the start. We all understand that we don't appreciate good things as much unless we've done without them. If Arda had been created in a state of perfection, without Melkor or someone like him, the Children would never have become as great as they could otherwise become. This was the "purpose" of it all, and the payoff will be the contribution that the Children make to the Second Music when Arda is remade. It will be more beautiful and more great and better appreciated by everyone than it ever could have been had the First Music not been marred.

[@thegatorhator6822]

Seemed like an obvious, stupid question but a really thought out and well-explained answer to it.

[@TheRedBook]

Thanks, and yeah I thought it was a strange question too but it's something that pops up an awful lot in comment sections.

[@Aquamentus11]

Do you think Aule would still have some sway over Sauron if they met in the 2nd or 3rd Age?

[@TheRedBook]

Tough one. Sauron had fallen to Melkor and openly served him but Aule would still reek of authority and Sauron would rightly fear that. I can't see Sauron challenging him in any way but perhaps being cowardly, fleeing or attempting to plea with him.

[@Aquamentus11]

@@TheRedBook yeah I agree. The old Sauron plea and flee

[@TheRedBook]

@@Aquamentus11 You can be guaranteed that when I discuss Sauron and Eowne I'm going to call it the "Sauron plea and flee" now haha.

[@Aquamentus11]

@@TheRedBook lol I'm honored

[@artemismoonbow2475]

I once heard it said that, "Plato never ruled an age, but any age that ignores him ends up engaging with him whether they like it or not." It would be easy to say that Tolkien was making a NeoPlatonist argument for guardians which are rightfully critiqued as setting up tyrannical caste systems. As a defender of Monarchy, it would be easy to say that this is where Tolkien landed and that is that. But if this is absolute, then why are the stand ins for himself as actors and observers of the world Bilbo and Frodo, Noble spirits born to the ignored and mundane? It is also interesting that mythically, or maybe mystically Eru is a stand in for him AND the reader as every spirit in the legendarium are archetypical, meaning each archetype is ultimately in you and necessary. What you deny becomes your shadow. There is nothing about those you hate that is not also a part of you yourself. As above, so below.

[@KCFoolStrike]

Awesome, amazing work. It always seemed to me like Melkor does 'conduct' the symphony. I wish Tolkein had been able to write a final saga. Seems like there was redemption for that character, and even Sauron, waiting in the final age.

[@TheRedBook]

I think in Tolkien's mind all could be redeemed but they'd have to want it. He believed in absolute good but not absolute evil.

[@KCFoolStrike]

@@TheRedBook I can't remember if this was even something I picked up in one of your videos, but it seems to me like the story of Melkor & Sauron 'glorify' Eru Ilúvatar in an interesting way. Melkor sees Eru's creation of the Ainur, and believes this creative act has weaked Eru, and therefore Melkor, who remains undiminished, should rule. Melkor is defeated and cast into Arda, and over time Melkor's creations drain him of the strength that was readily so apparent. Melkor goes from first of the Ainur, to being defeated by the elves, creatures who were inferior to him in much the same way that he was inferior to Eru Ilúvatar. Then this pattern repeats with Sauron. Originally a Maiar with the strength to overwhelm the elves, Sauron is ultimately defeated by the hobbits, the weakest of Middle Earth races (granted, with the help of Maiar and men). Melkor and Sauron therefore reveal the greatness of Eru, by showing he is the only one that can create without diminishing himself. They also show themselves as being the greatest of the Ainur and Maiar, in that they play the largest parts in determining the course of Arda. In fact, the Children of Ilúvatar cannot join in the second song of the Ainur until Melkor breaks down the Door of Night. So there are two prime narratives throughout the story. There is the Goodness of Eru Ilúvatar growing stronger in smaller and smaller incarnations of creation (Ainur->Maiar->Elves->Men/dwarves->Hobbits), and there is the Evil of Melkor growing weaker in smaller and smaller distortions of creation. I think a final way this could have played out in the fourth age, is the One Ring melting in Mt. Doom but thereby suffusing it's evil into the land of Arda itself. All speculation, but shows how rich the text is that it can support such diametrically opposed themes.

[@joseole1117]

sauron before he created his ring vs sauroman?

[@Mentallect]

Tolkien measured power by the strength of angelic spirit, and not based on physical strength. Melkor was not physically stronger than Tulkas, but Melkor was stronger in spiritual power. Durin's Bane was physically stronger than Sauron, but not more powerful.

[@TheRedBook]

Indeed, I never measure 'power' as physical strength. It's pretty much why I avoid "Who would win" hypotheticals because that's all nonsense to me really. Power itself is an interesting thing to discuss, especially in relation to the will, the ability to have a design become reality, swiftly.

[@TheGreatAndMightyGoBo]

Because the forces of nature weren't equal in power, and the valar needed servants and helpers right?

[@frankethomas1248]

A better question might be, 'Why are people so preoccupied with “equality”?' Whence comes this mad obsession?

[@TheRedBook]

I suppose its the belief that if something is not equal then it means something isn't 'fair' which isn't necessarily the case.

[@frankethomas1248]

@@TheRedBook Thank you for your response, with which I completely agree. But my question is actually intended to dig a little deeper. Does this “equality obsession” seem to be something more from the mind & heart of Eru Iluvatar, or from Melkor/Morgoth? I realize that such a question calls for speculation, and is thus ultimately unanswerable. But it does provoke thought, does it not?

[@MrBrendanRizzo]

Perhaps if we lived in an unfallen world it would be possible to have inequality without tyranny (and even that is unsure), but in the real world inequality has always led to oppression, and in no case have any of the high caste been ever able to give an argument for why they and no others deserve such privileges just by virtue of their birth.

[@dlsamson]

I believe that Tolkien's work was allegorical in nature & a reflection of his spiritual paradigm. As such, these disparities reflect what would also be true in the creation of the universe which we inhabit. I have suggested that God created the universe because, existing in the void when naught else existed, God knows all that is & has been but not necessarily all that could be. It is by the creation of diversity & inequality that God creates the ignorance from which creativity may arise. In so doing, the unequal spirits may, on occasion, produce something novel that God has not previously foreseen & thereby expand God's knowledge of what can be. Nothing new can be created when all is already known. It is only vis-a-vis ignorance that novelty can occur.

[@risaalshaan]

So if Melkor was a part Eru’s thoughts, then does that mean Eru was corruptible to any degree?

[@TheRedBook]

I think by definition he can't be corruptible because whatever Eru does is "the way".

[@risaalshaan]

@@TheRedBook I guess that makes sense.. but also that would mean that “the way” isn’t perfect and all positive. But filled with contradiction, and almost human?

[@risaalshaan]

@@TheRedBook also Thankyou for responding!

[@TheRedBook]

I think it's also trusted that it will be "good" and "just" but it can be a bit of a head scratcher. If whatever He says is good is then good...then what we currently think of as bad can surely become good if He wills it so? 😅 You can tell I'm not religious! As for being almost human, I think that's where Melkor comes in. He loathes Man but wants to rule them and is also jealous and envious of their gifts. He is the most human of all the Valar, which he would also hate if he understood that!

[@risaalshaan]

makes sense. It isn’t good or bad. it just is. And we call it good as it’s the will of Eru. And melkor being very human makes so much sense too. It’s why he was able to also understand their fears/emotions (as he too had them) and corrupt them the most!

[@vasaradragonsbane5580]

So....in the first 4 minutes of this video I have a question... if all the other Lords had/have female Lady counterparts ... where's Melkor's[Prior to his fall]? Did he just not have one? Or if so... what became of her after his banishment?

[@TheRedBook]

Good question! The Valar were the greatest of those Ainur who descended into the physical world. It seems they were already 'together' when they did. Melkor sought for Varda, who rejected him. The Valar were at once 15 and he was the odd one out, which is fitting. Though, if he did have a companion before entering the world, she would have went with him. The fact he was alone seems to mean he was always alone.

[@vasaradragonsbane5580]

@@TheRedBook I thought so though it's kind of odd he wasn't given one like all the others.

[@TheRedBook]

Well, I don't think any were given but they were naturally drawn to each other and each would complement the other. Melkor stood alone above all others.

[@vasaradragonsbane5580]

@@TheRedBook I meant given, as in the lore. I know each of the pairs probably naturally gravitated to one another I just find it strange the odd number meaning one of their number wouldn't find a partner and I would think that would inevitably throw off the harmony and balance and lead to problems later on.

[@darthwader4472]

That's why he started dating Ungoliant.

[@dododimitrov9657]

After watching "Wheel of Time" I am just scared how Amazon will adapt all the Tolkien's materials into TV show.

[@TheRedBook]

I don't know enough about Robert Jordan's series to really criticise the accuracy of the show, though I am aware they went the route of the Dragon reborn possibly being female, which I know can't be the case. I watched about 4 or 5 episodes and gave up. Didn't enjoy it at all really - seemed derivative, cheap, and shallow.

[@Aengrod]

Melkor should have made some T-1000 and skynet to help him subdue Arda.

[@kirandeepchakraborty7921]

⭐

[@Davlavi]

for the algorithm

[@TheRedBook]

Blessed be the Algorithm™. Praise it with great praise!

[@ParaguayMK]

Friend, I have no idea what, if any, is your religious background, but given that Tolkien was a devout Catholic (quick disclamation lest I be called a "missionary" I'm speaking here of literary leverage) I have to observe that your broadest framing of the Ainur and Maiar seems--though I'm aware that I could well be missing some nuance in your video--to lose the persistent, prevenient will of Eru through even the acts of Melkor. Yes, absolutely they were made in differing gifts and insights into Eru's song, but also Eru's all knowing sovereign insight into their beings must have foreknown their roles in his song! I do **not** mean to be pedantic, only to complement your observations here.

[@TheRedBook]

It's not pedantic. Though, it's difficult to speak of Eru so much without just saying he would know everything. I think it's more complicated. The fact Tolkien laid out for us the role Melkor was meant to take, means that there was always the chance he would do that. It doesn't really matter if Eru worked out immediately all paths as a consequence of free will. I just assume that people realise he's God and I just talk about the figures in the physical world as free beings. I'd repeat myself often if I just said "Eru would know this". He's the figure that permeates through everything and I discuss him when it's necessary to discuss him.

[@dannyc.3382]

Sauron, and Gandalf, and Balrog, Melia all Maia.

[@TheRedBook]

Indeed. I was going to list all the known Maiar somewhere on the video but couldn't find the right place to do it!

[@Mentallect]

Sauron had much stronger spiritual power than Saruman and Gandalf which is why when Sauron gave most of his power to the ring of power, Sauron was still more powerful than Saruman and Gandalf even without the Ring.

[@TheRedBook]

Well, Sauron didn't become weaker without the ring, it was still his and he was still in rapport with it. He just wasn't "enhanced" when he didn't carry it. He would only become weaker if another bent it to their will or if it had been destroyed, which it was obviously!

[@Mentallect]

@@TheRedBook Sauron did become weaker without the ring or Sauron would not have sought the ring of power out. Sauron's power was augmented by the ROP like the ring strengthened anyone with enough strength to wield it.

[@TheRedBook]

@@Mentallect Afraid not. Tolkien specifically says he was not diminished without the One Ring, just not enhanced without it. Sauron without the One Ring = Sauron Sauron with the One Ring - enhanced on earth Sauron Sauron with the One Ring destroyed = diminished Sauron He sought the ring out because it was his and his victory would be swift if he had it. Plus, he was afraid of another power wielding it against him.

[@Mentallect]

@@TheRedBook Sauron sought the ring out because it granted him greater power over the will of others among other things. Sauron would exist so long as the ring existed, but Sauron could not harness and use the power of the Ring unless he possessed the ring.

[@TheRedBook]

@@Mentallect That point does not refute my previous one. Sauron was enhanced with the ring, not diminished without it. Which is the original point I was responding to. He was not weaker without it..

[@jman518192]

But and just hear me out….under him weed will be made legal…so how bad could he really be?

[@billhenry7213]

you lose your credibility and sacrifice being taken seriously when you put Glorfindel in the same grouping as other elves, There is a significant reason why Glorfindel is, at the time of LOTR is far more powerful.

[@TheRedBook]

What is this in response to? I grouped him with Haldir and Arwen just as I grouped Barliman and Grima with Aragorn - precisely to show that not all those of the same kindred are equal.

[@Poigmothoin]

Big oof

[@TheRedBook]

Is that a good oof?!