Kathy Baldock: Untangling the Mess - The Reformation Project in Los Angeles

Kathy Baldock unrolls an 18-foot timeline and helps us make sense of political, religious, and social milestones from the Old Testament through 2016. Workshop recorded October 21, 2016 at the Reformation Project Los Angeles Conference. #TRPinLA
Kathy is the Executive Director of Canyonwalker Connections, focusing on education, encouragement and engagement between the Christian church and gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Christians.

[@kevinonthank]

Absolutely fascinating! She explained this brilliantly. I tried praying the gay away for years. My answer was silence and peace from the Holy Spirit letting me know I am ok just the way I am,

[@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ]

Same!!!

[@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ]

I even cried and begged God for forgiveness about me being gay and somehow I'm still gay.

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ all mainstream medical and psychological professional associations have said that you can't change your secsual orientation (e.g. to stop being gay) and attempting to do so carries "significant risk of harm".

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

​@@MusicalRaichuSo Jackie Perry Preston and Joe Dallas are liars? I missed the memo where these institutions override the testimony of these individuals and what they say about themselves.

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

❤

[@paisita1809]

I WOULD SIT FOR THE 5 HOURS!!! SHE IS SO GOOD..

[@viper_2]

She published most of one of her talks on her main channel if you havent already seen it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k thats part one

[@VocalAttitude]

I fail to understand why this video has only 4k views. This is literally crucial information for the general population. I mean, I'm in the lgbtq+ community and I wouldn't say I'm ignorant on the role of historical and cultural context but even to me this was incredibly informative.

[@cmc9611]

Amelia Jane 3 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.” (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

[@cmc9611]

Sorry, but it's false information about the actual content of the Bible.

[@ComradeLavender]

@@cmc9611 you can only make broad fearmongering claims without evidence because you know you're incorrect. You need to repent of holding onto your own traditional interpretations of scripture, and putting those views before serving other people. Clearly, it's born nothing but bad fruit. "Because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers." Can you prove that non-affirming folks aren't the ones who've done this? Care to pick apart her points one by one and see how you actually fare? She's done the research because she wants to reduce the harm done to people.

[@ShealahWest]

@gherrrie Did you actually watch the whole thing? Her presentation is based on the actual Greek and Hebrew and shows the connection between HISTORY, SCIENCE, POLITICS, CULTURE and RELIGION in shaping how sexual orientation has been percieved and used as propaganda to further various agendas. The word homosexuality or homosexuality WAS NEVER REFERENCED AND HAS NEVER EXISTED IN THE ORIGINAL BIBLE IN ITS ORIGINAL LANGUAGES.

[@scatterhawk47]

WAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyy Too long!!!!!! A synopsis and then a link to full video for more info.

[@tm33398]

BLESS YOU Kathy!! I am a 24/7 living transgirl since 2021 and am a believer and it took me until I was 61 in 2021 and seeing "PrayAway" b4 I could accept my true gender. it has been tough but stuff that you present is VERY VERY helpful to me to see how we queer ppl are and and understand that we are loved by our Creator and I do attend MCCD in the Detroit area!!!

[@stevenbarton989]

Not sure why Kathy titled this "Untangling the Mess," as "Putting Everything in Context" is really what happens here. I don't think anyone has ever presented the subject this way. I especially like how she places the different Bible translations into the timeline.

[@kevinonthank]

Me too I agree!

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

More like "Repeating Satan's Trick From Eden".

[@daniilshmigelskiy7459]

Haha very true, in the beginning God created a man and a women. Couple decades later, sinful humans “created” man for man and women for women calling it normal. Await judgement day in fear, you.

[@gabivsgketologic]

I wish a could have this be watched by every pastor and every Christian. I am a mom of a non-binary kid. I am a Christian and had received hate for loving and supporting my child. Thank you for telling this to the world ❤️🏳️‍🌈

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

@Gabriella Crain I am a Bible teacher and can demonstrate this is pure heresy straight from the bowels of Satan himself. Just ask yourself this: why won't they just explicitly say the Israelites, Jews, and Church have been wrong the entire time? That is over 4000 years of teaching that they implicate as being against The Most High's view.

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

That’s crazy that you get hate for loving…. When Jesus experiences that too. ❤

[@canaanhomela7081]

Omg thank you so much. I feel much better about myself now

[@TheLifeofNick29]

As you should bubs! God loves you!❤

[@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ]

Amen!!! 🙌🏽❤️

[@kaitlinoneill2991]

Queer Christian here. This was one of the fastest hour and a halfs of my life. Wonderful presentation.

[@The_Word_Is_The_Way]

Believer in Christ here. Adding any descriptor to “Christian” demonstrates Christ is jot the priority to you.

[@47deidra]

I really love how I’m going through the comments and as soon as “Christians” are faced with facts there’s no trolling

[@AF-tv6uf]

Hey guys, don't mind me I'm just here for the 18 foot timeline.

[@shannap.lawnerd8107]

🎯💯🎯💯

[@prestongabelhausen-uw6yy]

Awesome. I asked God recently if he could send me a dream about if he creates LGBTQ people or not. But instead, like many people, my heart and mind got silence. The Lord was telling me through silence that he loved me the way i was. He was telling me he made me homosexual.

[@scotthatch8323]

Doesn't it make more sense to say that His silence is not a confirmation? If it was confirmed, shouldn't there confirmation?

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@amandapark9718]

Kathy, thank you for your research and brilliant explanation! I’ve been a Christian all my life but I didn’t fall in love with Jesus until 2013. During my transformation God showed me what unconditional love looks like. I knew in my heart that how Christians were interpreting the Bible was not intended by God, but I couldn’t explain why. You helped me understand! I hope many non-affirming Christians would listen to this and ask themselves if it’s still okay to believe what we’ve been taught. Now it makes total sense of how our society got to this point of so much discrimination!

[@Mabeylater293]

The more I think about this video, the more powerful it becomes. Your beautiful research has exposed the "translations" of arsenokoitai masterfully. The so-called translators understood that word, as ur research shows, as being "a male who lies with another male" despite the fact that the Bible only used the male term once according to the Greek by Wescott & Hort which has arsenokoitai as meaning "liers with MALES". Religion and men added the second "males" to their own understanding eventually bringing "synn of sodom", "sodomite", and the "translations" you showed into the mix ultimately leading to the word homosexuality as a flawed equivalent for arsenokoitai. But when one steps back and let's the Bible speak for itself, you can see that the Bible's own context already used the term "ARSEN" in reference to a male child at Rev 12:13. So with that biblical fact in mind, ARSENokoitai, "liers with males" makes sense given St. Paul's audience and their culture. He condemned the perpetrators of a male child regardless of their sex. Martin Luther even associated ARSENokoitai with "child abusers" and even the German Jerusalem bible translated ARSENokoitai as "child molestors". Once again the Bible shows homophobic "Christians" their sin within their own blasphemous lies. THIS VIDEO IS SOOO POWERFUL AND NEEDS TO BE A TEDTALKS!!!!!!!!

[@healthyheartshealthyminds]

Wescott and Hort corrupted the Bible

[@Mabeylater293]

Healthy... What Greek reference do u prefer and what does it have for the literal at 1 Cor 6:9 for "arsenokoitai"?

[@Cedsback]

proof?

[@Mabeylater293]

Healthy It’s been at least a year, and still no response????

[@Mabeylater293]

Cedsback Proof of what?

[@rotomblack8389]

I have always struggled with religion.. this video is the most spiritually moving thing I have ever seen. You have single handedly placed the key 🔑 to the gates of heaven in my hand and told me it’s my choice. You have granted me a feeling of connection and of acceptance (not just tolerance) that I have only ever felt once in my life before and that was with my mother and father. Thank you, I thank you profusely; what you are doing in no truer coin of phrase is honestly gods work. ❤️🌈❤️

[@MusicalRaichu]

she's made a longer updated version on her own channel, well worth watching here's part 1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k

[@MariaRodriguez-dg4tt]

Nobody Absolutely nobody Christians even after watching this: Well that’s your interpretation

[@avurniche2371]

😭😂 for real it's so sad.

[@de629]

Ok I'm dumb, what are you saying?

[@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ]

Gay Christian here and I've been trying to educate heterosexual christians on this and they still say the same thing like "Well I'm just going by what I believe" or they'll say stupid stuff like "I interpreted how I want". Like huh?? 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@Daamwright]

In the realistic world I’ve concluded that the majority of Christians are actually antichrist that pick and choose scriptures to slaughter others.

[@lionheartmerrill1069]

@@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ is celibacy part of being a gay Christian?

[@navarwatson4551]

God bless you, Kathy!

[@mamaboocee]

This is all common sense and just wonderful to hear it explained so beautifully. Thank you for this scholarly factual explanation. We need more people like this woman. The way she understands the bible needs to be taught so that everyone benefits. All of the bible.

[@mamaboocee]

@7521eric do you just go around looking for arguments with anyone that doesn't have YOUR beliefs? That does not sound very compassionate or kind at call. 9 different comments on this channel alone that are quite harrassing. Are you proud of yourself?

[@7521eric]

@@mamaboocee sorry false teachers need to be called out.

[@7521eric]

@@mamaboocee no I'm not proud of myself because pride is a sin. Remember that at your next pride parade.

[@mustanggt5775]

Can this woman run for president, this needs to be common knowledge

[@TheLifeofNick29]

It truly does. The amount of hate and division we have because of the lack of this information is ridiculous

[@mustanggt5775]

@@TheLifeofNick29 exactly

[@dazatron1664]

What a wonderfully informative video. Thank God for people like yourself Kathy.

[@diamondlancer]

Kathy, thank you. I just finished your video in its entirety and bought your book on Amazon. I don't often watch 60+ minute videos on KZbin but I'm leaving this one thirsty for more.

[@MusicalRaichu]

she has a longer updated version on her own channel.

[@kimsteinke713]

Thank you Kathy ❤️💙😊 thank you for your lifesaving work and it is life-saving. God take care of this woman 🙏

[@Dave-if5qj]

😂😂😂

[@kimsteinke713]

Thank you Kathy it's growing it takes time people don't like studying. Unless they're centrally involved.

[@e_b_]

This is great! I've already watched this twice and plan on purchasing your book on Friday (payday lol)!

[@cortneyhanley4705]

Thank you for the time you put into this. People need(ed) you and your help for this work. God bless.

[@Dave-if5qj]

😂😂😂

[@kimsteinke713]

Kathy all your hard work is really showing thank you so much I've been there for you watching you for the last 12 years passing information and those seats are taken fruit God bless you and everyone that worked on this.

[@yoonjaehyuk2015]

I feel the spirit of God when she speaks Amen

[@Dave-if5qj]

😂😂😂😂

[@donj2222]

Thanks for compiling all this info.

[@melaniexoxo]

50:00 this is also why Jerry Falwell wanted to destroy Tammy Faye. She was one of the few people (and the only Christian) saying that we need to love and embrace gay people.

[@Robert_W7]

Wow, what an eye opener! Another book to add to my list. It amazes me how the 'Church' as a whole and for the most part is still silent on this. I can only think it is due to them wishing to remain allies with the Government's.

[@kaistevens7668]

love this in-depth look at the history and context of scripture. Thank you so much for sharing

[@TheRainbowChaplet]

Thank you for all your hard work to support us!

[@bilcal]

Well done, Kathy! Very good presentation of the interplay of culture and reading the Bible. Hope to see you at the GCN conference this week.

[@todddugan36]

Thankful to have discovered this video. It made so much sense. Thank you, Kathy!

[@MusicalRaichu]

kathy released an updated version on her own channel. it goes for 4+ hours but it's worth the time. part 1 kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k part 2 kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXu3c6OlorJ7a8U

[@cerilewis8846]

Great historical look at how views of same sex relations have been formed throughout history. I highly recommend your book. It's a great read and a much broader look at lgbt relations in scripture and history. It was also nice to see my Waldo hat had good representation in the video :D

[@fickeylin]

This is the best video I have ever seen on this subject. So clearly explained. Thanks a lot!

[@petersjj]

Absolutely incredible overview of the history. Just mind-blowingly good.

[@Dave-if5qj]

😂😂😂

[@lilyrandolph1833]

Thank you so very much! This blessed me greatly!

[@Nirakia]

Great lecture, Kathy!

[@carlashepard5776]

I’m buying your book and sharing this to as many people as possible! Bless you!

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

What book?!?

[@alexc5656]

Finally got to see this! Amazing.

[@obscillesk]

Man, I have regularly posted this video in various places since I found it. Thank you so much for this.

[@lagagirl]

Excellent and thorough.

[@Rich.Staples]

Thank you so much for this wonderful presentation. Totally shored up my understanding about my relationship with God.

[@amylovesTheGoodShepherd]

Thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank God for people like you 🥰

[@morvil73]

Wonderful video. It taught me a lot on so many levels. Thank you.

[@endswithme555]

She already won me in the first five minutes. She went through something personally that the Bible explicitly “condemns” and her experience shaped how she viewed God and others. That’s what literalists and people who follow the letter of the law miss, the heart and the human experience of people. God’s word was never meant to be followed legalistically without heart or grace. That’s the issue the Pharisees had. God has a way of letting life hit us that will challenge our hard (pun intended) way of interpreting and will instead soften our hearts with love if we let him

[@brianheid5394]

Thank you for this amazing presentation !

[@ethansmith9078]

Very thankful for finding this!!

[@grumpyuncle.]

Remarkable! Kathy Baldock shining light into darkness!

[@Dave-if5qj]

Just the opposite

[@MikhailJenkins]

Here from a tic tok

[@JenOverThinks]

This is awesome! Thank you!

[@pattyfarrell]

Absolutely brilliant! So good to see you in action again, only in video this time. I'll look up the updated one for sure! Isn't it something how detractors simply cannot utter your name? :D

[@timpows]

Thank you so much for this! What an eye opener!

[@shannap.lawnerd8107]

Watching this December 2021. Fascinating, powerful, and AMAZING. Thank you. 😎🤘🏽💋🔮⚖️

[@Crystal-el2qo]

Thanks so much for this!

[@maryklahre8177]

Thank you

[@GreatGrannyFreeBird]

wonderful abbreviated presentation!

[@Musiclover-tm5es]

I recommended this and your book to my pastor who pushes the belief of celibacy. I don't know if he watched it or read the book, but we made a deal and I read his stuff so... He probably will

[@fickeylin]

It's such a pity that this video doesn't have Spanish subtitles. I would love to do them, free of charge.

[@saeschmeister]

The problem is that fundamentalists are never going to listen. Everytime I go and talk about these thinks with someone who ist very conservative about this topic they don‘t care about science or about how sexual orientation has just been discovered lately. They just ignore all evidence based arguments against their homophobic world view and say that this ideas are from hell and scripture is very clear. So end of converstation. And that in fact is very depressing. Neverteless, tank you for your lecture on this, God loves all people, and also of course his rainbow children! ❤

[@adamali2451]

This is good

[@ObeahWitch85]

Powerful Stuff, so Glad I watched it, really put me in a better place.

[@ryr1974]

I have grown up in churches that are affirming never read the bible personally as anti gay and thought I was down on the ways to see how the bible is not anti gay -- but this just knocked my mind into awe and wonder. There was a clarity and wisdom and the jhoistory was all familiar but the way she analysed things in concert was so much more meaningfull and useful in understanding the culture. I hate to admit i avoiided her book because i thought it was another mom who learned to accept her son story. I love that she dedicated so much thought and reflection without having to do it if that makes sense. Maybe she addresses this in her book but I would make one improtant challenge which is that there ius about a 400 years spam of time in ancient athens where amounmg a cetain segment oif teh population tere is a lot being said of equality in relations with men taht are of a romantic and often a sexual nature. Such relatioiinships are viewed differently by diferent authorss but one faction is similar to some of what we would say to day though it starts morphing into a platoinic non sexual ideal and by the end of teh Attic age there is a lot of greek back p[peddedelimng not so much that Alexander isnt enamored of the old greek ideals but even he is dort of on the mild doen low. So just sayiong there are some manifestations of a model like today and this happens in local communities at various times like in the brothers on sp[roit marriages taht boswelll talks about and various mussings found in hournals that demonstrate how when people where enecountering gay people in tehrir community who by some ffluke found each ottehr and where doing there thing and many where sympathehtic to them so long as not pushed too far. But it hadnt hit the culture as she sis saying certianly. :oved loved ;loved this

[@gretareinarsson7461]

Fantastic basic lecture👏👏👏

[@sjf9205]

Very interesting!

[@sabinacruz4428]

❤thank you ❤

[@kevinwalkingPH]

I want to buy her book.

[@Armando-ob8yd]

An icon

[@soltho]

What about Alfred Kinsey and his books/studies. First book Sexual Behavior in the Human Male and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female?

[@burtcollins239]

Do not judge.. that is God's wonderful thing to do.. You will be judged at your end after trying to ruin people's lives.

[@burtcollins239]

@@peteryzerman648 Where did you get the power to judge? Scriptures were written by men and not God.

[@CapricornRunner]

Thank you for sharing your research! TedTalk please.

[@sasa096L]

Maybe I'm an idiot im not actually understanding is it bad or not i am not getting the meaning please someone help me understand this

[@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ]

I'm a gay Christian and I'm still trying to understand 🤦🏽‍♀️

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@CeCe_Bride_Of_Jesus_Christ what is it you have trouble following?

[@amandarecoveryjones8216]

The devil is the author of confusion.

[@kingmathew6201]

My heart is crying because for a very long time I was told that being Bisexual is a gay and I will go directly to hell, and the person I love , we genuinely love each other but we are both Christian and we are scared because we are going to hurt Lord, but I have a feeling that there is really something we need to.learn more, now we don't know what to do. It felt like there is really and intervention from Holy Spirit and knows that mistranslating the Bible is enough, this needs to be heard and correct the wrongs.

[@MusicalRaichu]

The videos on this channel give an in-depth look at what the Bible says and they show that Kathy is right. kzbin.info/door/vxHn5v4XXNPdugStF3l6BQ

[@Musiclover-tm5es]

Amen!

[@platinum529]

As I watch this video my questions are these: 1. Were there gay people in scripture? Does the Bible/God actually say anything about what WE call “homosexuality?” 2. Was this presentation a challenge of the use/validity and Biblical definition of the word “homosexual?” 3. How does she know that “same sex” relationships equated to violence in the ancient times when the OT/NT was written? What other research is out there to confirm this? 4. Being that Adam and Eve is the first romantic human relationship/union on Earth and God affirmed that opposite sex relationship dynamic, where does God affirm same-sex relationships between human kind?

[@MusicalRaichu]

The term "homosecsuality" was invented around a century ago and artificially combines men who like men with women who like women into a single category. in patriarchal societies, the main issue was the shame of a man taking a woman's role (by being secsually penetrated) because he would then be lowering his status from a superior man to an inferior. 1 records of men who like men, sometimes of women who like women exist since antiquity. if today around 3% of people are so attracted, then that there would have been such people in the Bible too. since their love life is hardly ever mentioned unless it's directly relevant, then we don't know who. 2 this is an early and out of date talk. you need to watch the updated talk on Kathy's channel, goes for over 4 hours but very much worth it. 3 it's complicated. you need to think more along the lines of men who bed males and the reason why. in ancient athens, to get around the issue of men shaming themselves by taking a woman's role, they developed a system where men who like males had relationships with adolescents who were not shamed by losing an adult male status. youths would voluntarily offer themselves in exchange for an education. gross by modern standards, clearly not ideal, but that's what they did. by NT times, however, this developed into a culture where many if not most adult male citizens would regularly use boys, slaivs and male prostitoots, even if they were married. the masculine ideal was for a man to boost their sense of masculinity by dominating, feminizing and thus denigrating the male they penetrated. it was common for men to bed males for wrong reasons. 4 The story of the man and the woman (aka Adam and Eve) in Genesis 2 explains why marriage happens. it does not mention secs or reproduction which could in principle happen even without marriage. rather, it explains that companionship, mutual support and familial relationship are the reasons for marriage, benefits absent from a series of one-night stands. since most men are attracted to women (and vice versa), in those days they didn't understand secsual orientation, and marriage between two men/women was rare or possibly unheard of, it's understandable that the latter is never mentioned. but you will note that the text contains nothing against it. on the contrary, the very same reasons apply, without contradicting the text, to marriage between two men or two women. if you treat the bible as a source of rules and precedents to justify everything you do, changes to marriage that have happened since then could not have happened. girls would still be male property with no say in who they marry and sold by father to husband. marriage for romantic reasons would be a rarity. we have made many advances in morality since bible times - letting women consent to a marriage, gotten rid of slavory, allowed women to vote, education for all children regardless of secs, status, etc. same secs marriage is one such advance. it's because the bible was by mistake mistranslated to say "homosecsuals will not inherit the kingdom" that the church has opposed this recent advance.

[@MusicalRaichu]

fyi here's part 1 of the updated talk kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k there's a part 2 on the same channel

[@Axisearth]

@@MusicalRaichu ?? What. There was no such thing as homosexual sex until the last century? Is that what you are saying?

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@Axisearth There have been men who want to go to bed with men and women with women through all recorded history. But they didn't understand why and it wasn't classified as going to bed with "the same secs" until late 19th cent. That's when we started to notice that some men have an inherent inclination to want to have secs with men instead of women. It's not until late 20th cent that we realized that it's a natural variation, and more than just a desire for secs, a capacity for an intimate relationship with a man, just like most men have such a capacity with a woman. That's why to understand any ancient document, you need to erase the category of "lying with the same secs" from your mind and think in terms of what the author understood. Don't confuse "a male lying with a male" with "lying with the same secs". Same phenomenon, two categorizations.

[@Axisearth]

@@MusicalRaichu, I am glad you said that because it seems to me this idea of the word homosexual did not show up until the last century makes it seem as if the concept of same sex sex and attraction was just invented recently. I am not sure what you mean about man lying with man as not meaning they did not have sex. What do you think it meant? If the Bible is God's word, then it means that God who has existed throughout eternity and who created everything that was and knows every intricate detail of past, present and future as he is the author of it, knows what same sex sex is. It does not matter what science says, God created everything. There is no where in the Bible same sex sex, love and marriage exists. The Bible only speaks on men and women having sexual relations and Jesus confirmed Heterosexual marriage as being what God intends.

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

You can feel the pain at 32:05 as you’re telling that

[@sistarhymz5051]

More like 30 million or more in USA

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

41:55

[@ww3659]

Wow-I”m at 1:07 and her understanding of arsenokoitai and malakoi are way off. Did she even read Boswell??? It’s 8 years later--wonder if her opinion has changed? Arsenokoitai, if her interpretation is correct, then all of the early church fathers who railed against gays in their writings would have pointed to Paul, but that’s one of Boswell’s main arguments, because they did not. A more accurate translation is “male temple cult prostitute” or quite possibly someone who trafficked young boys. Malakoi literally means “soft raiment” like that of a king, and referred to those who told the king what he wanted to hear, who had no moral scruples, VERY much like our politicians of today.

[@danaekberg781]

So in short, women can be homosexual but men are forbidden be so, according to her research, is this correct?

[@MusicalRaichu]

she's saying that "homoxesual" is a category invented in modern times. it does not appear in the Bible. It's only because of the mistranslation in the Bible that protestants still think it's a sin. Her later research revealed how the mistake happened. here's part 1 of the full presentation: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k part 2 is on the same channel.

[@Lenevor]

@@MusicalRaichu Can you go ahead and give me the run down on what she said? You seem to be a devout follower of thou Kathy 🤭

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@Lenevor I've done my own research and everything she's said on the issue that I have the capacity to confirm all checks out. It's a surprisingly more complex topic than meets the eye and can't be summarized easily. That's why there is so much confusion. But here's an outline ... Traditionally, the church came to believe that non-reproductive secs (aka so-do-my incl. between husband and wife) was a sin. The category of homoxesual did not exist. References to males having secs with males in the Bible were never classified that way (FYI they do not describe homoxesuality). But late 19th cent, it was discovered that some men have an innate capacity for intimacy with men instead of women and vice versa, and the term was coined. At the time they thought it was a mental disorder. Around mid 20th cent the RSV translation was being developed and sought to update the Bible into modern English. They innocently used the word "homoxesual" to describe what appears to be some kind of secs sin involving males in 1 Cor 6.9. As this agreed with traditional teaching and was considered a disorder at the time, this rendering went largely unchallenged. Except by David S who wrote to the translators. They ended up correcting the mistake in the revised edition. The error was, however, copied into other more popular versions (TLB, NIV) that did not have the opportunity to see the correction. At a similar time, the protestant church was discovering that the traditional view was unbiblical and gradually discarded it. Unfortunately, because of the now widespread mistranslation, they replaced it with the view that homoxesuality was inherently wrong. Around that time, the medical world came to the realization that it was not pathological, it was a harmless natural variation. This conflicted with what people's Bibles were now telling them, so they had to find a way to justify rejecting the latest science. They came up with ideas such as "God's design for mankind", "complementary-ism", "Biblical definition of marriage". The Bible only approves of men marrying women. Thus, they argued, other options must be sinful. That would explain why all references about male with males are negative. A completely circumstantial argument, but it fit their needs and quickly became entrenched. The incalculable harm this view has caused proves it's wrong, but I guess dogmatism overrides love (where's Jesus when you need him?). Hope this helps. I suggest you listen to the talks in full though.

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

It’s not even just sex! It’s a romantic orientation too right?

[@Dave-if5qj]

Do not deceived

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

maybe if the gays felt safe in church they wouldn’t have been so vulnerable to the lifestyle that led to it

[@peteryzerman648]

I think at the end of the day what we all need to realize is that there is always going to be different theology’s and what the bible actually speaks upon and what God is trying to teach us, and what he truly means. Yes this is a very large and growing delicate topic to speak on because it comes with emotion and all sorts of things. We must come to realize that this topic will never resolve itself as it is a topic with division heavily one sided or the other. It has become a product of sin which separates us and causes hate and resentment but I also do not want others to lose themselves within this topic and to be swarmed by conflict, there will forever be much more conservative christians as well as progressive christians who in their both respects believe that they have been given good information and have been affirmed in Christ in what they believe is right and wrong Kathy makes good points is it the end all and be all…no it is not as many people may disagree with points she has made and I’m sure many theologians have or not particularly disagreed with her but have their own interpretive minds and sources in which they speak on. We mustn’t be so quick to judge and dismantle someone in what they believe so quick as you would not wish for someone to do that upon yourselves. What we must do is turn to our church leaders and pastors as well as prayer to God for guidance not to seek it ourselves because that is where we only find answers that come from our own selves and is not within the will of Gods. Pastors, leaders of the church is who we can go with questions to find more meaning and to seek counsel from the ones who are called to be our authority and guidance in times of need. But this conversation topic of homosexuality is not our biggest concern. The good news of the Gospel is what we truly need to focus on and what does Jesus tell us to do is to save people because how much hate is within your heart to not share the gospel with people as it is a matter that talks about eternal life or eternal suffering and repenting of sins and whether conservative or progressive in Christianity the person who you speak with about Jesus and what the good news is hears what you have to say because that is what truly matters we are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God so no matter right or wrong on this topic we all have sinned in many other ways and will pay for them as we pass through judgement from God as followers of Jesus Christ we do nothing to gain entrance no right or wrong determines it because eternal life is a gift from God so believe I’m him

[@Musiclover-tm5es]

You could do well with some periods in your response, but there are some books out there like "Is God Anti Gay?" That does say that churches can't agree to disagree on this topic, and that the gospel itself is at stake. So it is important that we do research, and we pray and listen to God on this matter

[@passeyhead]

The problem with all of this "homosexual justification" is that it focuses on one of many translations of the same Greek text. Although the Living Bible translation is also noted in here, honestly the RV and LB translations are not very trustworthy. In the original language, it literally says "a man that lies with another of mankind". The context and the usage cases of how the words or phrase is used elsewhere should rule how to interpret this text. Regardless of what English term you use in the day that you are reading this, the bottom line is that in the original language, the meaning of the term is, in it's simplest form, 'one who participates in homosexual activity'.

[@MusicalRaichu]

the original term rendered in english would be "male-bedders". it could mean men that lie with males (i.e. other men and boys), but we don't know for sure, and even if it did, what were the connotations? was it broad - like any two males in bed - or was it narrow - doing things that were legitimately wrong for other reasons? no one knows. your last statement shows you need to do some more study about how people understood secsuality in that place and time. it was radically different to today and the term "homosecsual" is not always the right way to describe it. "homosecsual activity" today involves people attracted to each other. in those days, most men were going to bed with both males and females. probably no more than today were doing it out of mutual attraction. most were doing it because one person was denigrated for the other's benefit. some victims were slaivs forced into it, and others were allowing themselves to be denigrated because it was lucrative. as you might appreciate, such behaviour is unfit for followers of christ, and it is very likely this is what paul was referring to. see if you can get hold of john chrysostom's discussion of rom 1 written in the 4th century when that sort of culture was still current. quite an eye opener as to how differently people understood things.

[@lynneastoresina6903]

This is brilliant. However, unfortunately, you are a woman. Personally, I trust women more. Sadly though, many denominations don't acknowledge that women can be scholars/teachers even now in 2024. So some of them have already stopped listening to what you have to say before they get 5 minutes in. I absolutely loved what you had to say. Homeschooling, while also researching and writing a college paper on homosexuality, is what completely rocked my world.

[@Tracey..H]

I've been having a HUGE faith crisis! I was born again in 2000, healed supernaturally of inherited alcoholism on a barstool, shown my sinful nature supernaturally, and HUGGED by Jesus Christ as I sat on my bed. Quite a testimony eh? But, I've had questions and I'll express them here. I known about 12 gay ppl in my life and ALL OF THEM had visible signs of being gay. ( Please I'm not trying in any way to hurt anyone) I noticed the men had very feminine traits, and the women manly traits. On my childhood street, two boys, perhaps age 7, clearly had feminine traits. From not liking sports, to having feminine voices. These two boys were too young to understand themselves, but I could see at my young age, 10, that they acted, sounded and even looked different. When God touched my heart, I took the bible literal, inerrant perfect word of God, but I knew logically, that my gay friends didn't want to be that way ( as society bullied them) and that they struggled w God hating them. So to speak. This made no sense to me why a God who is love, would not love what he created?? And why did Jesus Christ not address this issue? Paul did, OT writers did, but not Jesus? My biggest issue was young gays taking their own lives due to shame, and guilt. This troubled me deeply, yet I still counseled gays that this is a sin, you must repent. My own sister is gay, and I led her out of relationships but she remains SSA. She's lonely and forces herself to "like" men. I know she doesn't, and I'm very conflicted rt now about these bible passages. Yet at the same time, sin is serious business. How do I know? Because I was once supernaturally punished by God for disobeying his word. ( Long story) Also, I meet ppl of other religions who are so lovely, kind and wonderful. Or atheists or agnostics who are great folks! In the bigger picture why would God create anything and than destroy it in eternal hell fire forever? Yes, the Bible speaks of the consequences of rebellion and sin, but to eternally burn for just being a Buddhist because you grew up in that culture makes no sense. Also even in my confusion, I'm aware there is good and evil. Evil spirits, and a spiritual realm. I've had contact with it. But I'm really struggling w so much regarding the Christian faith. God's wrath, hell, punishment, yet LOVE? It seems lopsided and illogical to have a creator who tells you to FEAR HIM AND LOVE HIM OR ELSE.... I haven't watched this video yet, but if I find it reasonable, I will edit my comment. If anyone has any conclusions or ideas they'd like to engage in a conversation with me, please do. W that I truly hope my crisis ends soon. And that this presentation gleans some insight into this subject because gay conversion therapy doesn't work and I'm certain is damaging. I've been damaged by spiritual abuse, but for other issues. Ty

[@gerardburns7175]

I think Jesus will be the Judge. He will judge by I was hungry, thirsty, etc. Your interpretation may not be as far off as you think. Show mercy and mercy will be shown is another one. I don't think we have all of the answers, but should operate by faith through love.

[@christinahanna6666]

No matter how you feel sexually the world has become overly sexualized. I feel the Lord leading me to remind anyone who says they follow him to walk in holiness. Jesus said, “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

[@amandarecoveryjones8216]

This is why the Lord says to test spirits and use discernment. A gay man and a lesbian (native american, hispanic last name as if that matters smh) while on a hike? Just sounds fake to me. Theres scripture about people who believe in their own knowledge. God bless you for reading this comment. May you allow our Father in Heaven to show you truth.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Funny, I used discernment and independently came to the same conclusion as her. Maybe you're the one who needs to be shown the truth.

[@sgstevenson23]

"these tactics often go back to what can happen to your children" what's happening right now!!!

[@yaksak2706]

It depends on what she defines "against" as. It's all smoke and mirrors.

[@aseriesoftubes08]

I don't find it convincing that 'I didn't feel capable of judging others sins because I was sinning' - that doesn't sound convincing to me, it seems like it's falling into a false hypocrisy fallacy. You can judge others wrongdoings as you do wrongdoings, you can judge others wrongdoings as you don't do wrongdoings; to play off that, your aunt or uncle who has a cigarette hanging out of their mouth who's telling you never to pick up smoking may be more morally weak than morally hypocritical (for that example, which I think is analogous), where what they say is true or false irrespective of what they are doing or not doing. Sexual behavior should fall under the same approach, something is wrong or fine or right, irrespective of ones own desires or ones own analogous moral failings. I want to hear convincing arguments that can sway me either way, but this off-the-bat stuff of 'I didn't feel comfortable judging because I was embarrassed about my divorce'' is just so weak. I'm going to keep watching but the beginning prefacing statements were off-putting because I find that line of argument so weak (false hypocrisy fallacy stuff).

[@Mabeylater293]

To the reformation project: Did u delete the comments of “CM C” and my response to them??????????

[@fredphilippi8388]

This was an awfully chatty, grossly unfocused presentation. An editor could clarity this data much better. This was -- to quote the title -- a mess.

[@MusicalRaichu]

she had to pack a lot into one hour so it might come across as disconnected. you need to listen to the full presentation with updated information. part 1: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k part 2 is on the same channel.

[@fredphilippi8388]

@@MusicalRaichu I'm already a "convert" (i.e., born gay), but I have had all I can take of "Chatty Kathy." I am glad her message seems to speak to others.

[@MusicalRaichu]

​@@fredphilippi8388 ha ha, I love it, it's one of the most charming thing about her! and her blatant feminism is so amusing. in that case, don't watch the full presentation, it's nearly five hours long.

[@zacharyharris633]

"For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh."

[@MrSurfingdreamer]

That is correct for whom he was talk to, about what he was talking about, in the correct historical context, in the correct linguistic context, and in the correct cultural context. This scripture in no way condemns homosexuality and it is extremely, laughably ignorant to think it does. The Holy Bible also states that celibacy is much better than marriage and sex of any kind. The Holy Bible also encourages and states that polygamy should be celebrated and the norm based on your ignorant, many times over mistranslated, misinterpreted versions of the Holy Bible. Peter and Paul did not know the truth about human sexuality and countless medical and mental health expert researchers do. Those are facts whether you like them or not. Peter and Paul and their writings are not God. The both purposely and accidentally mistranslated, misinterpreted version of that scripture you ignorantly cited is not what the actual, original Holy Bible states. Jesus Christ did not say anything negative about homosexuality and/or gay people. Jesus Christ was talking about leaving one's family, town, culture, and world they know despite how hard it is in order to travel with him aka. follow him and those who choose not too, are not worthy of doing so. You need an accurate biblical education from the original, actual Holy Bible. If you don't like what the original, actual Holy Bible states, don't believe in it. If you don't know what the original, actual Holy Bible states, don't blasphemously speak as if you do. Instead, accurately educate yourself. God gave us the law, which never, ever condemned homosexuality. More importantly, God gave Jesus Christ to fulfill the law. If this was not true, then Jesus Christ died in vain! God blesses those who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, NOT those who do or do not follow his Old Testament commandments. Genuine Christianity is Christ-based, not commandment or law-based. You clearly do not know or care about God's actual, original holy word. Only man's ignorant, wrong understanding, which is familiar and comfortable for you. "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." - - Galatians 2:19-21

[@MusicalRaichu]

Yes, generally speaking they do. So what? Jesus did not say "EVERY man shall ONLY EVER be joined to A WOMAN AS his wife OR ELSE IT'S A SIN". That's twisting what the Bible says.

[@josensantiago9813]

For what reason you cut the reason you’re hermeneutic is wrong even an English teacher can share your reading a fragment of a context

[@zacharyharris633]

@Todd Spencer Yes.

[@anap1840]

@@MrSurfingdreamer so what do you make of the law in Leviticus 18:22 which says " You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”?

[@elusive4072]

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. - Romans 1:26-28

[@bounty8438]

Watch the presentation again.

[@MusicalRaichu]

that says nothing more than we already know from history, that certain males were doing unseemly things with other males. i'm definitely with Paul on that one! but that has nothing to do with gay relationships. gay guys have never "given up natural relations with women" and i know some are doing unseemly things but don't criticize all of them because of the few. plenty of straight people do unseemly things too.

[@burtcollins239]

Your rediculous... It is not a choice.. and until you really are in a gay persons shoes do not judge.. Your humour is sick and what a bad way to make money... Your using gay peoples lives to profit from.. I will pray for you..

[@actualtrash7342]

Burt Collins did you finish the video

[@sarahtrudeau581]

That was the point..she said people called homosexuality a sexual preference until the 80s/90s at which point it was starting to be understood as an orientation

[@burtcollins239]

@@sarahtrudeau581 GAy people are born with either heterosexuality , homosexuality or bisexuallity... It is not a choice.

[@laurenwilson1799]

Burt come on, watch the whole video.

[@Emmanuel_Morales20]

Watch the full video moron

[@BIBLE-a-s-m-r]

Dude the enemy is all over this gay hate.

[@daniilshmigelskiy7459]

Romans 1:24-27 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator-who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Shes just making it sounds like its a good thing, not realizing those shameful people are fulfilling God word with their evil deeds.

[@MusicalRaichu]

No, she's not talking about people with shameful desires and unseemly behaviour. Her issue is unjust condemnation of people who want to be in loving relationships. I've known a few gay people and not one of them did even one word of what you quoted. One of them was a faithful Christian.

[@adriananderson3979]

Hm... research as a reaction to another paradigm worries me; that doesn't seem like the best way to come to a sound conclusion. The hypothesis of her research is a statement, not a question. That is a problem. Credited researches (which she is not) largely agree 'arsenokoitai' is a ''made up; junk draw' term that included but is not limited to homosexuality. That said I think we're better off saying this part of the bible is wrong instead of trying to make it 'fit' by reinterpreting it. Also - this view of sex is NOT accurate globally nor historically. I'd liked to see the sources of this research. Also also - her view on the relations between men and women is pessimistic. I wouldn't take it as truth. Women were not the 'lowest of the low.' This is chronological misogyny.

[@rhtz23]

Well said Adrian

[@ellerocvisionz]

She is credited because she did research with credited individuals such as Yale and Oxford

[@andyk7009]

She hasn’t tried to reinterpret it. Shes not saying ‘this is what Paul meant instead’. She’s instead pointing out that the English translations and references to homosexuality are likely warped and not necessarily correct translations and that the various versions released in 1950-70’s specifically are likely biased and influenced by the no debunked medical journals and political climate at the time.

[@pattyfarrell]

She is credited. Your first sentence makes no sense. And I'd like to see YOUR sources.

[@rafeandersen5476]

This woman does not have a high view of scripture as Jesus did. She does not believe it is inspired, authoritative, or sufficient. She also has very weak biblical arguments.

[@MusicalRaichu]

What makes you think that? Like what does she specifically say? I've watched her longer updated talk on this topic as well, and I ended up with the opposite opinion.

[@canyonwlkr]

"This woman does not have a high view of scripture as Jesus did." Comparisons to Jesus will always fall short. Your assumptions about my views of Scripture are just that YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. The arguments are certainly strong enough to impact others' views. I don't see much interaction with your views on your Facebook page. Perhaps begin with influencing your own small circle first?

[@pattyfarrell]

@@canyonwlkr Thank you for chiming in here, Kathy! While watching your video above I kept having de ja vu, remembering seeing you in Battle Ground, WA with Eunice Ingermanson, a couple years ago before the pandemic, in your 6 hour iteration. :D I am so glad to have watched this 1.5 hr version, but now must find the updated one someone mentioned above. Thanks for all your work and making it accessible to those of us not fluent in Greek, Latin, the full spectrum of church and religious history, US history, or terms referring to same sex couples (basically, most of the the US population). God bless you!!

[@holyheathen435]

The "scriptures" are a product of the culture and history from which they hail, more than they are the "word" of God, if they even are

[@holyheathen435]

@@sheroyal9326 well for one, I said nothing about anything being foolish, for two it doesn't take the bible or Christianity for one to be spiritual the Spirit Is man's nature, effectively a Natural man is a spiritual man

[@ronnywhite5602]

Sorry, I'm not on the band wagon. My Bible talks about sin and consequences. Also, my Bible is easy to understand. Holy Spirit teaches me as I'm reading. Thank you Jesus.

[@MusicalRaichu]

Fair enough. She's pointing out that the Bible does not say that homoxesuality is a sin. You really should watch her updated talk where she explains how they discovered the way the mistake originated. Here's part 1, part 2 is on the same channel: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g3Pakp2Zq7-np9k

[@Lenevor]

@@MusicalRaichu Hello, here to testify against the christians can be gay thing. (really dumb but oh well) 1 Timothy 1:9-10 KJV (same example as in the video lol) Since she doesn’t seem to understand what the translation means (or is purposely being ignorant). In other translations of the verses (ex. NIV, CEB), they replace “for them that defiles themselves with mankind”, with “practicing homosexuality/ same sex intercourse”. The other translations show that this means the bible is talking about homosexuality being a sin. If you think the other translations are inaccurate, than look no further than the 1599 Geneva Bible. The 1599 Geneva Bible translate those words with “buggerers”, which means the act of anal sex. However, the Bible never mentions anal sex with your female partner being a sin, therefore, we can only assume it means having anal sex with another man. Genesis 19 is probably the best example of the Bible mentioning homosexuality and why it is wrong. The whole chapter takes place in Sodom, which as you know, was a wicked place that got destroyed. It talks about 2 angels (disguised as men) going to Sodom to meet Lot. Verses 4 and onwards talk about men surrounding his house, wanted to have sex with the new men he brought, instead, Lot offered his virgin daughters instead. This is the final straw which made the angels destroy Sodom. What can we concldue from this? This basically shows that the bible does talk about homosexuality, and it shows that it is wrong. I showed these two examples because they are not all that well known and it isn’t the same one everyone is arguing over. The problem that I have with Kathy is that her teachings/reasonings at the base level are coherently wrong and she lies about things that should not be lied about. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that men are superior to women. It says we should treat everybody with love, and that men should protect those who are weaker then them (weaker as in physical strength I presume). She also says Stoicism beliefs are that men are superior to women (which is not true since it literally says to treat everybody as equal). I also do not know how she thinks “abomination” means to “mix something” where abomination literally means unclean in the Bible. She also twists the KJV translations Old English to her advantage by twisting words, or by twisting definitions of words that mean different things nowadays. She should not be using KJV in the first place since there are already far better options that were created (like the CEB and the NIV), but her whole argument is that they are inaccurate or some shit (even though she also uses a version that was translated to english 🤨 The fact that she needs to twists words and make false claims means that her whole teachings cannot be trusted at the base level. Her claiming that a part of the Bible is wrong means that she is indirectly saying that the proof of God is wrong, meaning that God’s whole entire existence cannot be trusted. Christians do not and should not believe in God blindly (bless those who do), the Bible shows and is proof that Jesus actually existed. TL:DR, Kathy is a liar and a fraud who twists words and makes stuff up all for the benefit of her own belief. If she thinks that english translations are inaccurate, than she should learn Hebrew and make her own. 😂 Anyways this is about all I feel like typing, have a great day! PS: I believe that there is nothing wrong with gay people, they can be who they want to be, but I do believe they cannot claim to be Christian when the Bible says being gay is a sin.

[@Lenevor]

you know in fact, screw it, i’m making this a comment I spent too long trying to make a valid argument 😭

[@MusicalRaichu]

@@Lenevor Homoxesuality is not males having secs with males, it is the innate capacity for a man to be attracted to and have an intimate relationship with a man instead of a woman. This was unknown until the late 19th cent. The Bible makes no mention of it. Males have had secs with males for reasons other than homoxesuality. The problem with males having secs with males in the cultures represented in the Bible was that because women were considered inferior, a male taking a female role in the act was denigrating himself. The negative references to secs between males in the Bible are wrong for some specific reason, not because it's the same secs. Gen 19 - attempted raip, obviously wrong Lev 18/20 - religious taboo against a subset of what we classify today as same-secs acts Rom 1 - rhetoric about unconventional secs acts in pagan worship 1 Cor 6/1 Tim 1 - unknown, the meaning of the Greek word has been lost, but see below It's illogical to jump from these to ALL same-secs acts, especially when they don't even mention women with women. That women were treated as social inferiors is present in the entire Bible. Because of the ethic of love, writers in the Bible sought to ameliorate and critique the harmful effects of patriarchal culture. But the very reason for that is that they treated women as little more than property. The term rendered "abominashon" in older translations basically means "against our culture or religion". Pork and seafood were called that more often than lying with a male a womanly bed. In NT times, men, often straight men married to women, would have secs with males deliberately to put them in a woman's role and thus dominate and derive pleasure by denigrating them. The most common victims were enslaved boys. This would explain the strong language "not inherit God's kingdom". It was legitimately wrong. But the Bible says nothing against loving relationships between two men or two women in accordance with their orientation - not the least because they did not understand secs orientation. But it does say "love your neighbour" fulfils ALL God's commands Rom 13.8-10, not "love your neighbour and no gay secs". "It is not good to be alone" applies to gay people too. Thus you need to be careful claiming that gay people can't be Christian. The Bible says no such thing. It makes the opposite claim: "God wills that ALL should be saved".

[@Lenevor]

@@MusicalRaichu You arguing having sex with another man does not make you a homosexual is crazy. I guess I can bang some random dude and not be called gay 😂. Homosexuality is still having a sexual relationship with a man (A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP, BEING SO INTO SOMEBODY YOU WOULD WANT TO BANG THEM). Also with my examples earlier, the Bible talks about homosexuality, they just didn’t use that specific word because it wasn’t a word back when the Bible was created (why are you trying to argue this, not everything has to be the exact word to mean the same thing.) In Gensis 19, Lot offered the men to have sex with his virgin daughters instead. What do you think this is implying? For me, I think it implies that since Lot is willing to let the wicked rape his daughters instead of the men, that means raping men must be really wrong huh? I don’t want to go into the other verses since your first example was coherently wrong (though I think you are proving my point, not too sure though.) Also please cite where the Bible (or just any other religious text) says to treat woman as inferior. I’m sure God will never let that slide because it will hurt is image of a perfect, nonbias being. If you are refering to men being sexist without the Bible telling them it is okay to be, than that is sinning. As stated in my previous reply, I stated that abomination meant unclean in the Bible, you are still right with your definition too, as they mean virtually the same thing. Can you please elaborate on your second sentence though? I think you are trying to say lying with a man as a man is abomination, or with your definition, against our religion. Again, please cite where you got this. Also, isn’t enjoying having sex with a man… make you gay? Pretty obvious red flag here. Last time I checked, the Bible doesn’t encourage you to commit hate crimes. The Bible specfically says to love others as you love yourself and to forgive your enemies. The Bible encourages you to love other people even if they are doing the wrong thing. According to you, being sexually aroused by a man makes you gay 😬. There is nothing inherently wrong with being sexually aroused by the same sex. It becomes wrong when you give into those temptations, like with every other sin in the Bible. Please don’t twist God’s words by saying “all shall be saved”. God saves those who believe in Him and those who follow his teachings. This is why God had a problem with the pharisees, they stuck to the old teachings and never moved on from them. God only saves those who deserved to be saved. TL:DR, don’t give into temptation and you are set for the afterlife 👍