Thermoelectric Diffusion Cloud Chamber

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_c...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoe...

[@FredMiller]

Fascinating Nick and a really great build. Glad to see you making videos again.

[@NickMoore]

Thanks, I plan on doing a couple projects this year but not with the same schedule I was keeping before.

[@behruzsultanov452]

Unbelievable! And I can have this at home? Truly astonishing that looks.. You have an amazing channel) curious to check that at home and understand all the principles of what happens here in detail) My subscription right away

[@JimGriffOne]

So that's why my living room seems to have shooting stars on a Friday night! Awesome video btw! I was thinking about making a cloud chamber myself but got too busy making liqueurs instead.

[@55Ramius]

Great, your back! Hope your going to be more regular as I miss your experiments. Other channels add a lot of flash and little content sometimes. I like hands on stuff I can try myself.

[@NickMoore]

I don't have a whole lot more lined up at the moment but this project was far enough along to make a short. Once it is boxed up and finished I'll be going more in depth into the parts and construction. Glad you like it!

[@brainfornothing]

Your videos are incredible, full of info, direct to the point, very shorts, ... Thanks a lot for sharing your excellent work ! Cheers from Spain !

[@NickMoore]

Glad you liked it! I try to keep the filler to a minimum and not waste people's time.

[@Si-Al-Ti]

I remember a big one at a public science centre outside of Stockholm we used to visit when I was a kid, it was amazing to watch and learn that these trails were formed by particles from space. Almost 20 years later it still amazes me just as much.

[@NickMoore]

I first saw one at the Ontario Science Centre and it was partly the reason for making this one. I'm hoping to get it to the point where it can run continuously as a piece of scientific art.

[@Si-Al-Ti]

Nick Moore That’s a great idea! Thank you for creating interesting and beautiful stuff btw

[@neowiza360]

Great video, as usual. You make it seem easy enough to try at home. Been a while since you posted. I thought you quit. Happy to be wrong.

[@NickMoore]

Hey, thanks! I took a break since the fall (and started ordering parts for this in November). I'll be back at it again this year.

[@user-fh2fm7vr4m]

Great to see you uploading again! Love the videos.

[@NickMoore]

Glad you like them, this year I'll hopefully be doing more complete projects that do demo but also result in a finished product. We'll see if I can actually manage it.

[@spikeydapikey1483]

Never seen that effect before. Cheers!

[@NickMoore]

Thanks, once it's working I should set it up as a live stream or something.

[@rezganger]

Very cool! Thanks for sharing.

[@NickMoore]

Thanks!

[@lepermunna]

would be awesome to put a radioactive source in the chamber and see the trails coming off it!

[@NickMoore]

Someone else mentioned that I may be able to see the decay of potassium in bananas, I will be trying that asap!

[@jeremyindenver]

Spectacular!

[@NickMoore]

Thanks!

[@eurobum2012]

Too short! Can you please film the chamber for 3 minutes or so and post that? It's beautiful.

[@NickMoore]

Right now I am working on putting it together in a nice enclosure with better lighting. Once it is ready for show I will have a longer, higher quality video of the chamber while it is in operation.

[@eurobum2012]

Awesome. Can't wait.

[@AlaskaSkidood]

Is there a way to determine which particles are causing the cloud to form? Perhaps applying filters to different sides of the chamber to ensure that only certain particles will cause the ionization in a particular direction.

[@NickMoore]

If you put a strong magnetic field through the chamber it will cause the particles to curve in one direction or the other based on the charge of the particle. It might be possible to filter by energy (different thicknesses and densities) but I'm not sure if it would be possible to filter by particle.

[@Baigle1]

It is just like an alcohol version of a Geiger counter yeah?

[@NickMoore]

Pretty much!

[@Muonium1]

Did you stick a magnet under there? the track look curved. Something I never understood about these kinds of chambers is why I can see the progress of the particle along its track like at 1:30. The particle should be traveling at a substantial fraction of the speed of light. Its track should appear instantaneously along the entire length, even in the high speed. I don't understand it.

[@NickMoore]

There are magnets in the top of the chamber and for one shot there is one in the top right corner of the cold plate, that is likely why some of the trails were curved. As for he speed of the trails I don't know why some appear to be very slow, it's one of the reasons I picked this as a project!

[@Muonium1]

Perhaps the particles are coming in at a high angle wrt the condensate surface and ions drift slowly down to that layer. Maybe making the vapor chamber less tall will eliminate the long lived trails? idk

[@fluteplayerify]

Would you be able to see the radiation from the decay of potassium in a banana?

[@NickMoore]

I'm not sure but I'll put some banana in the chamber and see if there are more trails. Good idea!

[@johnmadden6656]

Very Cool!. So which is the source for the trails in your video? Is that something you are introducing or just from the environment. Also, what are shimmering specs (kind of looks like snow falling).

[@NickMoore]

The shimmering is small droplets of alcohol that have condensed on their own, like a thin fog or low cloud. The source for my trails were all naturally occurring decays of atoms in the atmosphere or cosmic rays (maybe one). I'll be testing other sources ASAP.

[@NevinWilliams71]

Do you have a spare smoke detector? The Americium in one would provide a particle source. Often, the Am is contained attached to a button located inside a steel cage.

[@NickMoore]

I do have one and I grabbed the Am source but the results were unexpected. There are occasional streaks far from the source but up close there is just a non stop churning cloud. I'm not sure if the source needs to chill longer or if it is swamping/saturating the cloud. Once I have the cooler running better I will try it again!

[@NevinWilliams71]

I'd expect a churning cloud... The few demos I've seen using a radioactive source use a pin-tip sized material, and it still looked like a seeding dandelion. Perhaps putting it at the bottom of a sealed pipe that's been tinned will with lead solder would give some directionality to the emissions? Do those coolers have much of a magnetic field? That will influence some of the particle's behaviour... Have you tried adding a magnet to the chamber, to see how it affects the trails? That might require stacking video frames, like you showed me how to do with the burning steel wool... Bananas are supposed to be pretty radioactive...

[@NickMoore]

I hadn't thought of it but yeah, Am should have lots of decays per second where as those point sources are decaying very slowly, I'll see if I can make a directing tube or some other means to get the particle to hit the chamber from one direction. The coolers may have an electric filed but I suspect it is not a large one, I do however had magnets holding the alcohol soaked felt to the top of my chamber, I'll have to switch to some other method to get straight trails. I have tried a magnet and there is an observable difference, many of the trails get well defined curves to them. I will try the banana, its a fun idea!

[@DoNotPushHere]

As interesting as always!! Gotta check if I can build myself the low tech version by dropping the pressure... I've always stopped myself from building one of these because of the cold temp needed. Btw how pure is the alcohol you are using? Thanks!!

[@NickMoore]

I'm using "electronics" isopropanol so it's probably around 99%. Lower concentration should work particularly if you add a heater (1W resistor). I would love to see a pressure based chamber, all exampled I have seen are dry ice, refrigerant or peltier based.

[@DoNotPushHere]

Nick Moore thanks ;) I'll search for the patents and all the data. It will take me a while to start it all. I've got a bunch of stuff to do on my waiting list. Not very scientific, but I intend to build a fake foam motorized chainsaw with an air engine, EVA foam teeth and a 3d printed centrifugal clutch to be ready for next halloween. Bwahahahaa!! (evil laugh :P ) Why not electric? For the noise! Why not nitro model engine? For I intend to use it indoors :P

[@NickMoore]

That sounds awesome, air engines sound almost like a 2 stroke and with the right muffler (loudener) I'll bet you could get it identical!

[@DoNotPushHere]

Nick Moore well...they are two stroke ;) besides that, I have a couple of air cars with a very ingenious design, and they are loud... The patent itself is worth looking at, if you are keen to engine mechanics. patents.google.com/patent/US6862973B2/en It amazes me how the inventors made the piston, crankshaft and exhaust to merge beautifully.

[@NickMoore]

That's a really cool design, I've only ever seen the 'air hogs' style that requires a flexible piston ring. I know what I'm going to be Googling next night shift.

[@xl0xl0xl0]

Very cool! One thing I don't understand - a lot of particles seem to be moving slow enough, that you can see the movement on the video. Is something else going on there?

[@NickMoore]

I'm not really sure, it seems to be the same with all cloud chambers. One of the reasons I built mine was to look into the too-slow particles.

[@jcims]

Yes!!! This has always been a mystery to me and I was hoping someone with a good slow motion camera would build one. I'm thinking there has to be some property of the alcohol itself that contributes to the speed at which the cloud forms. E.g. maybe a slight instantaneous cooling from droplet condensation is the 'front' along which the cloud moves. Dunno. Did you have to stack the coolers or was one layer sufficient given the cooling system in use? Would love to see the build, I have ~10 peltiers in the basement but need to get off my butt to do the rest.

[@NickMoore]

Once I have it all boxed up I'll do a much more detailed break down of how this was built but it is a stack of 2x2x2 peltiers. All together the peltiers produce more than 500W of heat in addition to the heat pumped from the chamber so my design goal was to continuously cool a 500W electric heater down to room temperature!

[@jcims]

BTW don't be afraid to toss up a Patreon. I know at least part of what you have in this, wouldn't mind chipping in a little to help offset the costs.

[@NevinWilliams71]

Tl;dr: the trails aren't showing the particles' velocity, just that a particle had passed through there. The trails very similar to jet airplane con trails in persistance. They don't indicate the speed of the particle, though: just the path where they passed. Their passage makes nucleation sites in the supersaturate, which then causes alcohol vapour to precipitate out, at its own pace. Depending on the temp and pressure, this pace will vary.

[@TiagoTiagoT]

What is the twinkling stuff?

[@RC-1290]

There seem to be curves in the paths. Is that an artifact of the way the chamber works, or are the paths curved?

[@NickMoore]

It''s likely because I have too many magnets around the chamber, magnetic fields cause charge particles to curve their path. (Just like in my Lenzes law video!)

[@piranha031091]

Why are some of the tracks curving?

[@NickMoore]

There are magnets in the top of the chamber to hold in some felt and any time you have a moving charge in a magnetic field the charge will feel a force. So instead of straight lines some of the particle follow a curved path. If I had a much stronger magnet all of the paths would be curved.

[@piranha031091]

Oh, OK, I missed the bit about magnets being present!

[@NickMoore]

I hadn't intended the magnets in the top to have so much of an effect so I may end up removing them for the final version.

[@piranha031091]

Or keep them, they allow you to determine particle charge!

[@NickMoore]

I was going to add a big coil around the whole chamber to see if I could get a more uniform field. Because only the current matters though a coil (not the voltage drop across it) I may be able to use the nearly 60 amps of DC power used by the thermometric coolers in the coil.

[@ACTlVISION]

If you cryptographically hash the raw video stream of a camera pointed at it you can call it a quantum true random number generator

[@NickMoore]

I could set up a photoeye (or several) and count ticks between when one trail passes and the next. That might make a fun add-on if I made it record the results and plot them.