These New Commander Bans Are HISTORIC (in a terrible way)

[@tachronjr.5680]

“Darius?” “Yeah?” “They banned mana crypt you know” “So?” “Just saying”

[@SantorgoTheCorgo97]

peak

[@backpacks6486]

This is why I say proxy anything over 100 dollars that isn’t reserved list

[@myleslux6983]

Proxy anything over 10 dollars

[@yellaturd]

@@myleslux6983 proxy anything

[@hexatwo7211]

Proxy anything

[@smokeythatdude]

Proxy lands

[@leethax100]

Proxy anything that costs more than a proxy

[@Dauth312]

7:30 Brother, if you are running a commander deck that hinges on the use of 1-2 cards to make the deck functional, then you just made a really shitty deck.

[@Vanity0666]

It exemplifies why these cards needed to be removed, they have enough power to make literal dogshit competitive

[@SwordOfSigismund]

@@Vanity0666 They literally don't though. Or rather, Mana Crypt and Jewled Lotus don't. Sure, a deck that runs Dockside and can tutor it out can play it for the mana to combo a win, but Mana Crypt and Jewled Lotus both just accelerate mana, and there are tons of other cards that already do that. Green is always gonna be on like 6 mana by turn 3-4 with mana dorks and ramp spells, red and black have rituals that effectively do the same thing as jeweled but with different restrictions, so the ban to them really only effects decks not running those colors. No deck becomes unplayable because of a manacrypt/jeweled lotus ban. Decks with higher mana commanders become more consistently slow to get them out, where before they had the chance to spike and get them out faster, but the RC saying they like "slow magic" is so vague it's meaningless. What is slow? If someone is playing a low mana cost aggro deck, is them winning by turn 6-7 too fast for the RC? When are we allowed to win without it being too fast? Can combo decks not get lucky and draw their win cons by turn 5? I've gone infinite with an upgraded Wilhelt deck at about that time, and that deck is not competitive. It's just swingy. MC and JL are the same--they add intense variance to the speed of the deck, but that isn't a bad thing. It already exists and it isn't going away unless the RC bans ALL mana accelerators, because inevitably, the Elf deck player will have 3 lands, 2 dorks, and a cultivate in his hand turn 1 half the time. Sure, he runs MC too, but everybody already runs mana artifacts. MC was just the most efficient. Something has to be the best of them. Was MC so much better than Sol Ring that people were winning every game they drew it? I'm very doubtful. JL is more like a ritual card--a one and done that helps your deck do its gimmick a little earlier. Unless the ban was for the prices of the cards (which they should not ban for--WoTC needs to fucking reprint good cards more regularly in precons), then I can see almost no reason those two were banned, Dockside I can see needing a ban. With the relative ease with which you can flicker it or recur it, I understand that it generates too much value. Nadu, obviously was cancerous and I doubt many people care it had to go. Losing mana artifacts, however, because the RC "prefers slow commander" is fucking retarded. They obviously need more people on the committee that play more types of commander. Not everyone likes three hour games of jank. I don't even play CEDH, but i like to run more optimized strategic decks, and so of course I run a RIng and a Crypt. My decks will be fine without Crypt, as I'll just slot in something else, and I rarely ran Lotus anyways, since it's a dead draw half the time, but it's ridiculous they were banned in the first place.

[@harrisonjames5693]

Fr, why even make a deck that can’t function without $200 of fast mana

[@peeporiot9948]

"this hurts low power" is a WILD take lol

[@taylorsmith8162]

He saying it hurts low power commander that generally are higher costed and take a lot more to make work

[@peeporiot9948]

​@@taylorsmith8162 he specifically says it helps low powered decks/commanders against more powerful decks. it's a bad take. If your low power jank deck is held together by mana crypt and jeweled lotus it's just a bad deck. And regardless you shouldn't be bringing your glass cannon deck against battleship.

[@calvinhill158]

@@peeporiot9948 Yeah makes no sense to me either, if drawing into these rocks lets a jank deck explode 10% of the time, its also going to let actually good decks explode 10% of the time too...plus the 25% of the time they also explode just because they are good.

[@adriantuttle771]

You must not have the experience in commander to understand then. I have played for years and have 40+ decks of all price ranges and playstyles. When you have a commander that isn't good at all and it is janky as heck and costs way more mana than it's worth, these cards help them actually become usable and it makes them really fun to play when they usually aren't, because they are inherently too slow for even going against a precon. Mana Crypt and Jeweled help those jank decks become viable and fun. I play a lot of low-mid power casual currently and these cards help make these decks possible. Sorry you don't understand, but once you build a commander that fits the "Jank" he's talking about then you'll understand.

[@-HASH]

​@@peeporiot9948some people enjoy bringing Timmy decks with Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus. Also,, those two cards enable his power level 7 deck to behave like a 8 or 9. You are making a mistake when you think everyone who plays those two cards are playing CEDH.

[@ethanvan5402]

"Darius?" "Yeah?" "There's a goblin sneaking up on you." "So?" "Just sayin'."

[@ProfWalton]

Your argument at 6:10 is exactly what the RC was aiming for. Your opinion is what they are trying to maintain in the game. Not too long games but not too short. We were beginning to see CEDH mimicry at LGSs where people bought or proxied these cards and copied the latest CEDH decks to create 4 and 5 turn wins in casual games (personally witnessed). I like these cards and hate the monetary losses that people have sustained. However, I think we should all let it breathe and see what EDH looks like after this change and then decide.

[@APineappleR]

A friend of mine has recently started going to Commander Nights at his LGS, and runs into a LOT of people who play proxy decks with Mana Crypt, Rhystic, etc. and got tired of it pretty quick since all he has are precons and didn't want to deal with it. The idea that Commander is the "casual" format but high power level cards and decks are everywhere because of proxies makes the idea of it being casual laughable, at this point you could have more casual games playing Standard or Modern. Plenty of pods have the opposite issue of Wubby's, they just rule 0 banned these high level cards because nobody wants to deal with them.

[@FunktapusGaming4Lyf]

so the issue was the lgs allowing proxies... not the cards themselves. if a casual is playing with a $1,000 deck... they aint casual.

[@dat_man_sam9823]

Truer words have never been spoken. The homogenization of this format is almost inherently against what the format is supposed to be. Giving an opportunity for new cards to take their place is a good thing.

[@harrisonjames5693]

Hundreds of times I’ve seen that, this only hurts tryhards and people using magic like nfts

[@Bentbire]

Buying cards and assuming that theyll just always hold montary value is part of the reason these cards are expensive, hot take. When you buy a card it should be because you intend to play with the card, that is the primary reason, stop treating cards as an investment. Im sorry, but these are not stocks. It sucks that people have lost money on these cards, but you were always going to lose money on buying cards, thats how your LCS and Wizards make money.

[@dawsoncochran]

So say for a second you intended to play with them but only saved up and bought one in the last week. Now you have to hope and pray that random people will “rule 0” the card you saved up for. Or enjoy your newly purchased bookmark/token. Like Wubby said, this didn’t hurt rich people, it hurt people that were baited into thinking these cards were safe because they JUST sold product with them as a chase. No one bought into Nadu. Some people bought into Hullbreacher, but if a card is a mistake, don’t wait 4-6 years to ban it. How long does it take Jesus Christ.

[@Bentbire]

@@dawsoncochran Again, it sucks that people lost money on these cards. I am not unsympathetic towards those people, which is why I think the community needs to start caring more about market price for cards. Part of the issue is that as a community people ARE willing to buy expensive cards, it won't change until your local game store and the online sellers aren't making their money back on them. Why as a business would you choose to make less money? Ethically it would be great if they charged less, but they aren't going to. Also, the price of a card should not determine its' viability to remain in a format, its' utility and effect on the game should.

[@geek593]

​@@dawsoncochranThat case is almost certainly in the minority.

[@NomNowYT]

You have to remember, the people who are hurt the most by this ban are normal players who had to save their money towards cards like this, not "investors". Most TCG investors don't even play the game and their "investments" are in reserve list or sealed product, not singular cards. That's asking for some hurt if you're "investing" in modern cards that were already being reprinted. End of the day, Magic is a hobby for most people and most people like playing with cards they paid for and hopefully have some value to get back from it if one day they decide to leave the game.

[@domninin]

​@@dawsoncochran The case you are describing would have never happened if WotC printed cards in a sufficient quantity so that no card cost more than a dollar. I agree it sucks for those people, but the problem is not the banlist but the fact that a single company has the monopoly to sell cardboard in a way that it's value becomes 160$ to increase the value of their sets and therefore their own profits at the disadvantage of people who just want to play

[@nightmagnus7595]

It's closer to "banned in pickup games" than in general, if you know your pod and they're chill, who's gonna stop you?

[@KunushiH]

Thankfully so. My whole group of friends are ignoring this ban (sans Nadu). We like to go fast.

[@DejikoFan]

The banlist should be for pug play, insular groups aren't beholden to this ban at all

[@BDtetra]

@@DejikoFan that's what it was always for and its always been very clear that was the case since forever

[@SmashAdams]

*KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK* ITS THE PINKERTONS

[@thatepicwizardguy]

@@DejikoFan they ARE for pug play. exactly correct.

[@GreasyMalone]

There's no way the One Ring gets banned even though it should. That $2 mil 001/001 is too high a price. I bet the Infinity Gauntlet will be the same or worse. There's no way they'll ban it in the next 5 years.

[@micboyyaboy2578]

Who said that the people didn't want these bans? I've heard and seen far more people praise these bans as something that should have been done long ago. Also, while this might hurt some players who have been trying to get into higher power levels, they shouldn't have to grind like that at all to do that. Pieces of cardboard with text on them should be available for much less than hundreds of dollars a piece (unless it's collector stuff that's a different category). I also completely agree with them about Sol Ring. It should never have been the staple that it is, but as commander has grown and taken over MTG, it has simply become a vital part of commander, a signpost that sometimes, yeah, we do silly overpowered stuff.

[@itssam5147]

I think the bans are okay- and I get why people are upset, but I think wubby disregards the RC and what they were aiming for BECAUSE he is someone who has access to these cards readily available, and in reality, these rules apply to formal gatherings, tournaments, LGS, etc, so if you want to ignore them, they actually made a rule for that! I think its fine to express frustration with the bans, but this felt a little tone deaf

[@MeemoTV]

Anyone with a printer has access to these cards

[@XaterMB]

Sorry Wubby, but these bans are good. It also doesn’t makes games take longer than an hour or 90 minutes. It just prevents people showing up with shit like this on Commander night to dunk on people. If you like these cards continue to play them with your group, no one can stop you.

[@MeemoTV]

Sounds like the problem is a power level disparity at the table, rather than the single cards themselves then

[@gabecastillo1634]

@@MeemoTV exactly, having a mana crypt or jl in ur deck doesn’t make the deck a 9

[@The5thAffix]

The problem with the "make a EDH committee and a cEDH committee be separate" is that they tried this in the past. And the result was the resulting cEDH committee bought up or sold their copies of things they were planning to ban/unban and manipulated the secondary market to make money Edit: I also think its a very out of touch thing to say "these bans hurt low power". brother, if you think MANA CRYPT, DOCKSIDE and JEWELED LOTUS are "low power", then you have had too much money and too much access to high value cards for too long. if a single card costs anything more than $20/30, that is high power. If all you chase is the most valuable card, you dont see the actual low power cards that dont break the game when they hit the table.

[@Vanity0666]

Because those are the same players who treat the game as a secondary store of wealth

[@bobisacoolguy3631]

Price has no effect on the powerlevel of a card. Look at edgar markov or divine intervention, not great cards but they're still expensive. By your logic sol ring is low power although it's on the same level as mana crypt.

[@tuckerkaup]

​​@@bobisacoolguy3631when has Edgar Markov not been a powerful broken card???? Like it's expensive because it's so ungodly powerful and wizards knows it, why do you think Ur dragon has been reprinted but Markov not?

[@bobisacoolguy3631]

@@tuckerkaup Since forever? Tribal has a very very very low power ceiling with maybe some exceptions, getting a 1/1 vampire everytime you cast a vampire in exchange for basically not having a commander isn't that great of a deal. Every Edgar deck does the same, it plays a couple of vampires and that's about it. You could use it as an aristocrat engine, but there are so many beter commanders for that. The only "broken" emmenence commander is Inalla really. I understand if Edgar feels broken against precons, but against actual decks it doesn't stand a chance.

[@dokanzan5623]

Wizards probably knew about these bans, and I don't just mean that, I believe the committee must have tried to ban these cards earlier but was blocked due to the release of Commander Masters and Ixalan. I don't mind the bans, and honestly, it doesn't change anything for my pod. I just think there should be a separate committee for regular Commander and another for cEDH. Things are getting really confusing.

[@explodinglab]

Jim said that the talks to ban dockside lasted over a year, not sure when the other 3 joined in the talks but the timing is definitely awkward since sets take like 2 years to make

[@the_knut]

@@explodinglab In the recent FAQ released regarding the issue, the RC claims to have not held these bans at all. They had expressed to WotC their concerns over fast mana, but they explicitly deny holding the ban announcement after the decision was made.

[@catboy57392]

Casuals don't buy expensive cards... this doesn't hurt casual games at all, casuals were always able to proxy those cards and still use them if they want to, the rules are only valid in tournament formats

[@TheAmpharosFreak]

Casuals get dunked on by try hard whales

[@AllstateManlove]

"Who cares about the banlist we're just gonna ignore it" hey guys i think hes starting to understand rule 0

[@Figgie02]

so glad sanctioned events for cedh can't rule 0 them out.

[@TNTspaz]

Kind of makes the rules committee worthless tbh. More so than they already were. Making arbitrary and inconsistent rules that every other person follows and just causes people to get into arguments. It's an overall net negative. Especially at events or in stores/groups that try to enforce the rules. Commander would be a lot healthier with a good consistent ruleset and banlist. The casuals aren't ever gonna follow it anyway. It needs to exist for the broader community.

[@leadpaintchips9461]

@@TNTspaz It didn't. What made the rules committee worthless was the 'signposting' bans, and them relying so heavily on self governing, using rule 0 to ban instead of using rule 0 to allow. TBH I only started to play again this year when a friend of mine gifted me the Imperium commander deck, and everything that I've read of the rules committee made it clear to me that they really didn't want the job. They only banned very infrequently, they used 'signposting' instead of actually going through the available cards to see what was problematic, and their ban list is like 20 cards out of over 20,000 cards. Frankly that sounds like people doing the minimum amount of work to hold a position. Yes, it was a volunteer, unpaid job but they were putting in less work then an absentee father. Though I trusted them more then I trusted WotC to make decisions that were healthy for the format.

[@prestonasher32]

Yeesh, there are some wildly bad takes here. For starters, saying this affects low power the same as high power is just nonsensical. If your 100 card deck only worked because of 3 cards, it was a bad deck and you need to accept that. The reason why they didn’t ban Sol Ring too is because they just want to pull back on the crazy mana ramp, not nuke the idea of it from ever existing in commander. As for why they didn’t ban Thassa’s Oracle or the other problem cards? This is the sign that they are now actually willing to ban those. By going from near complete hands off to the largest bans in commander history, they signaled that this isn’t the end. The most egregious bad take here is the accusation of essentially insider trading.Like come on now. You’ve been in the game long enough to know how damaging those types of rumors can be. Just wildly scummy. Covering yourself by saying “Oh well I don’t really think they did that,” while at the same time spreading the theory is not a good look. I don’t agree with some of the bans, but seeing the absolute hissyfit the Magic community has thrown over the ban of these cards has been a little shocking, but mostly disappointing.

[@lukeivan1]

Agree for the most part, but I think that 99% of why they won't ban Sol Ring is because it's in every precon.

[@prestonasher32]

@@lukeivan1 they do put it in every single precon, but it’s for the same reason why they don’t ban it. Having a singular card in a 100 card deck that can give you such a good boost early in the game is fine when it’s just that one card. It allows for your deck to go off early or catch up later without being too consistent or overbearing. Sol ring by itself is fine.

[@1Moonfeather]

Is wubby's problem the price or the ban, because if they downgraded mana crypt to a common and everyone had 20 copies and the thing cost a dollar: is wubby happy? Doubtful. Think its malding about the value getting yoinked, because most of these cards were already banned in most formats already.

[@toomuchritz]

As is the case with plenty of commander staples as the format plays out differently. But he does make a point on table reactions. things like rhystic study, smothering tithe, the one ring thassas oracle are all marginally more frightening of a board development than a mana crypt

[@orukia13]

@@toomuchritz but that also is a weak argument, from someone who plays all of those, Rhystic is strong but i never garanteed a win with it, usually in a smart pod is a good target for enchant removal, and there are levels to it, because of unwritten rules destroying a Rhystic Study is not bad, but removing a mana rock from a player does get side eyed a lot, and yes people go "oh fuck" when Tithe is dropped, but see the reaction to a T1 Land, mana crypt, into a 3 drop commander or even worse into a tutor to start comboing t2, those feel way worse and can happen in casual play.

[@1Moonfeather]

@@toomuchritz the commander committee in general has been slow to ban anything, this is them finally acting. why not ban those cards too. fuck stax, all my homies hate stax

[@itbeharry]

@@toomuchritz Mana Crypt costing zero allows a turn 1 Rhystic Study. With Sol Ring it allows Smothering Tithe and The One Ring. The difference in 0 cost and 1 is huge. Mana Crypt is frightening because it enables so much on turn 1.

[@NotoriousC19]

I get this hurts people who have invested into powerful cards (risky move anyway based on how magic is). But maybe it's worth trying to let go, have fun with alternatives and not rely on super staples. Then, if you and your pod truly can't have the same dynamic, overrule it. It's that simple to me, you won't believe how many mana rocks there are when you actually look. Cedh players are the only ones truly affected by this as fast mana for free is the name of the game.

[@TheCrazyZebra1]

"Slow magic sucks" Brother don't you play stax

[@OvAeons]

I was thinking lmao. But HE is the one doing it lol. Staxx is banned in my play group but one guy did not get the memo. 2 hour game.

[@TheCrazyZebra1]

@@OvAeons yeah slow magic sucks when he's on the receiving end I see lol

[@Lomaxxx53]

He doesn't tho, he just has that one stax-y deck

[@gamblorthemonster]

Wubby is very "Rules for thee, but not for me!"

[@michaelmuller4754]

No one has an issue with cards like Shaharazad, Black lotus, or power 9 being banned because they are inherently good and too expensive and aren't acquirable for most people. And you can still Rule 0 all of those cards in anyway because you can certainly disagree with the decision. I think this is an issue because people's wallets are effected

[@DejikoFan]

Pretty much this, if they are cool with crypt and jlo, then take the moxs and black lotus off the banlist too. They just allow you to play faster amirite

[@alexdivis1699]

⁠@@DejikoFanawesome take actually, no ban list commander is a blast

[@bencheevers6693]

@@alexdivis1699 Why even play magic why not roll a dice and declare the winner to be the one who rolled highest? Extreme variance in a singleton format with such an absurd effect makes the format worse.

[@alexdivis1699]

@@bencheevers6693 everybody plays magic with different ideas of what’s fun, for me the busted shit is what’s fun

[@bencheevers6693]

@@alexdivis1699 Again, why play magic why not just roll a dice? You could even roll a d10 while they roll a d6, it's bad for the format. If you'd like you can just roll the dice however you want with your friends or run these cards but going and playing at your LGS with random magic players in your community it needs to be banned especially because half of them won't have it and then it's just a variance handicap. Like you can do whatever you want, you can write on a playing card indestructible blackest lotus indestructible, hexproof, tap to add 100 mana in any combination, pay [U] untap indestructable blackest lotus, [B] exile IBL from the game return it at the end of the phase. Why would that not increase your enjoyment with your friends? That's totally allowed, it's the same thing just a different degree. When a card should go in every single deck it should be banned.

[@Chewy-Pudding]

Wubby being so upset about these bans is kinda proof to me they're based tbh

[@MCXL1140]

Sorta agreed

[@LeroyJENKINZZ-j6l]

He’s right

[@MakZ1k1nG]

It's actually hilarious how confidently Wubby talks about the "community" disagreeing with the bans while all the top comments applaud them

[@Vanity0666]

One thing I have noticed is that the people who agree with the bans often speak for themselves and from their experience while providing personal opinions about why these cards hurt the game, meanwhile the people who are against the ban refuse to give their own personal opinion and instead rely on "this is not what the community wants" as if they are the sole authority speaking for the entirety of the playerbase. The guy who left the advisory committee over it went on his podcast and even explicitly said the reason he is against the bans is because his friends Post Malone and Kyle Hill like playing them.

[@a1h9s8s9]

unban everything then! prime time! emrakul! braids! Iona! there are a reason these bans exist, and a reason things have to leave the format for good. if everyone runs it, it cant be broken, right?

[@HusserNS]

Its fucking mana crypt not emrakul lmao use your brain

[@gabecastillo1634]

Yea that’s kinda what commander was made for, I think ban lists should only be for sanctioned competitive events instead of putting restrictions on such a creative format

[@Thomas-4222]

This is a pretty out of touch take, as someone who plays “upgraded” precons at my lgs these are some great bans that work great for a casual setting where you might not know your group or their decks yet, and if you’ve already got a playgroup you can ignore them like you said. What’s the point of this whining

[@ryanhebertson7457]

You can’t just write off everyone that has a different option than you as whiners.

[@Voyajer.]

@@ryanhebertson7457 dont whine

[@ShyLoo1994]

A lot of words for saying “I’m poor”

[@MuuzikTV]

@@ShyLoo1994 I think everyone getting upset on these bans are the poor ones now….

[@thecreed926]

I don't own these cards and I beat people that use them. Get better at the game? But banning them is silly.

[@drbloo1905]

Saying a deck is almost non functional because you don't have a mana crypt in it is one of the most delusional takes I've heard in regards to the ban list lmao. The bans are fine and hearing people cry about it has been genuinely hilarious. People rule 0 shit out or in all the time. Your pod literally rule zeroed in drawing during the end step so don't even act like you're the exception to rule zero. The ban will only have a real effect on the CEDH scene, which I agree should have a separate ban list.

[@mrwaha1]

It's very telling that alot of EDH players have not played another TCG. These bans have been tame in comparison to other formats in Magic and other TCGs

[@stonersteve9940]

i play korvold and kenrith i put 10 k in a deck so it was legal at tournis come at me korvold is dumpster fire rn and kenny is dieing red as a color is dead rn and mana crypt is bae

[@stetsoncrobison]

Lol how do you know that 'the people' didn't want this? Have you seen any data that shows the majority of commander players didn't want that?

[@R.D.Hoffman]

What data have you "seen" that DOES show that?

[@MuuzikTV]

@@stetsoncrobison I’m happy they’re gone and I own all 3

[@stixlord1990]

Literally KZbinrs are crying for content. Every video is saying that everyone hates the decision for the ban but then says the majority is 50/50 across the board.

[@Ravenamps]

😂 The RC doesn’t determine costs. The market does. My pod plays with banned cards all the time. If I went to my LGS and someone had a problem with my mana crypt, I’d just say, cool, let me swap it for a felwar real quick. Wow that was really difficult 😮‍💨. Complaining about Sol Ring is fine, but are you speaking about it in terms of it’s relation to gameplay or your bottom line? Like if mana crypt was a buck fifty would there actually be this much outrage? You know you can actually do whatever you want outside of a tournament right? Like literally one cares. Didn’t you just say at the beginning of the vid that Nadu is fine? What if if it were $200. Would it still be fine or would that be a no go? Make it make sense.

[@MuuzikTV]

@@Ravenamps this is the best take I’ve seen. If you want to play with them there is a ton of people who also want to. If people don’t just swap it for a less fast mana and everyone still has fun 😂

[@Ms10000123]

These rules are mainly for pick-up games. A casual format like that shouldn't have expensive cards as staples. So if they don't get reprinted, they should just be banned. I'd ban these and a lot more if I were that committee.

[@t3ruski799]

If you're just showing up at your LGS to play some casual commander, these bans help ease the disparities in power without a complicated Rule 0 discussion. Saying "I want to play with these banned cards" in a pod you've never played with is better than casting your 6 cmc commander on turn 1 and having the table scoop and never want to play again.

[@perfectsweetheart]

Can you explain to me what is complicated about a rule 0 discussion? I'm not trying to be antagonistic I hear it a lot and I genuinely don't understand/am curious. I don't think I've ever had one go longer than a minute. Ask if anyone's running fast mana, tutors, or taxes and choose your deck accordingly or find a different pod. Or just ask what turn their deck generally wins on.

[@justinb845]

No amount of bans will stop pub stompers at the LGS or a convention.

[@jacobpyeatt5024]

I think you need to use rule 0 instead of having this view of omg power, snowflake.

[@t3ruski799]

@perfectsweetheart I don't think rule 0 itself is complicated. But players can be. Casual and/or inexperienced players aren't very good at identifying what causes unenjoyable games. They tend to want to avoid the card that killed them last or blew up their stuff that one time, when the most common detractor of enjoyment is actually being 3 turns of development behind.

[@perfectsweetheart]

@@t3ruski799 that's a fair point. In my experience if someone is unable to identify what makes a deck high power it's clear their deck isn't strong and if for some reason it is they won't be able to utilize it efficiently enough to be threatening. I/the people I play with would bring out low power decks or tell them they might want to check another pod. It's been a long time since I was new and the people I play with are generally good-natured so I don't encounter it but I can see how what you describe would be discouraging and likely not uncommon. Thanks!

[@wagatron7697]

These bans are great. I understand people lost money, but this is a game not an investment. Playing against these cards in a casual setting is unbearable. An opening hand where you can play a 4+ drop commander is obviously bad for the game. Dockside is incredibly pushed and overshadowed more interesting cards (such as treasure nabber). Mana crypt is a little strange to me because of the similarity with sol ring. I play a lot of cEDH and I think the dockside-loop meta is getting out of hand. Commander is going to be just fine

[@oscarlaud470]

You don't play cedh if you think dockside is the issue and not the dmir winter we're in.

[@westhemeh9236]

Yeah really tired of the it's not an investment thing sound like someone who didn't save up to buy one be proud of that ability to save up to something just to barely get to play it.

[@SwordOfSigismund]

Crypt and Lotus were both fine and didn't need to be banned. Playing a 4-drop (or even a six-drop) turn one is not the end of the game in casual (and in competitive, if it is, there should be some interaction to try and prevent it), and there are 3 other players there that will band together against someone who gets that lucky hand. Dockside I agree is probably too good, since you can recur and flicker it easily, but no casual game has ever instantly ended because one player was up 2 mana. Green players end up 2-4 mana ahead by mid game almost every game and nobody cries about it. I do agree that people crying about lost money are a little baffling. Yeah, it sucks, but even if you do treat this like an investment, anyone who has ever invested can tell you that your investments can lose all value over night. It's just a risk you run in tying your money up in a volatile market.

[@harrisonjames5693]

@@SwordOfSigismundfast mana was ruining the casual nature of commander be fr, like maybe as a vet it’s no big deal but to the casual or onboarding player it can be a hurdle too strong to climb IMMEDIATELY

[@victorprinciotta1250]

Don't agree, it's better for long term playability and that's what's going to ensure the longevity of the game, not the secondary market. I think you're over exaggerating the effect of rule 0 in multiple pods. You're already separating your commander when you put your deck away at the end of the game. Just sideboard your crypt and lotus, it's not that serious. I agree they should've coordinated better with Wizards regarding reprints. There's probably a better way to go about it. Maybe they could have banned them one at a time or something but ultimately I think it's the right decision.

[@darthfrancium1166]

I just sold 4k worth worth of cards. I don't intend to collect expensive cards anymore. Don't intend to buy any mtg expect for maybe a precon I really like. I'll be proxying everything.

[@jackdeth1969]

I’m doing the same thing I’ll buy a precon maybe do the 100 upgrade to focus the decks better

[@bobisacoolguy3631]

Debating selling my 10k euro collection, it's just cardboard after all, it won't change anything if I buy high quality proxies.

[@jackvogel6479]

very unfortunate but I mean what did they expect. They are making the format more accessible by limiting it??? Sure

[@aubreyd2249]

Based

[@sebanimates5664]

@@darthfrancium1166 and that’s WOTC’s fault for giving into the second market and not thinking of the consequences of it. These are game pieces collectables, meant to be played with

[@kaybe87]

The bans are fine. Every format has bans. Get past it. I wish they took out sol ring too. It's only going to fracture the community if you can't get past it. Nobody makes a new modern format after a modern staple is banned. I'm glad I won't have to play against these at my LGS. The games will be the same speed but have less variance of insane starts. When one person gets a super fast start and someone else doesn't hit any ramp in their opener, the game feels fucking bad.

[@Lilbru123]

this. I think many crying about the bans don't realize that a vast majority of commander games played are pugs at an lgs where it's hard to rule 0 out cards like this. the game will be much healthier without them, especially cause while it's harder to rule 0 these cards out, it's much easier to rule 0 them back in

[@emymacleod]

Every other format gets bans like this - its a part of Magic, but commander players aren't used to it

[@Bakateru]

This is true but since commander is the largest format there’s a lot more voices and also if Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus were $15 tops no one would be complaining it’s only because people invest a lot of money into these cards

[@zbuerks]

​@@BakateruInvesting in any market runs the risk of loss. It sucks, but that's how the world works.

[@zbuerks]

@@Bakateru so what you're saying is, people aren't mad about the cards being banned like they're claiming, they're mad because they lost money because an investment didn't pan out. An investment that includes risk of loss... They should be mad at WOTC for keeping the cards as chase rares and driving up prices, and then mad at themselves for falling for it and buying the cards at insane prices. The rules committee is not at any sort of fault here. People need to take a good, hard look in the mirror.

[@Bakateru]

@@zbuerksexactly I understand in a business standpoint that it’s to entice people to buy booster packs/boxes but in a consumer standpoint it’s just a predatory practice especially since they knew it was in the talks about getting a ban

[@NathanAtkinson590]

Banning a card they reprinted months ago is colddd.

[@wagatron7697]

The rules committee does not work for WotC

[@SohcSTi]

​@@wagatron7697 You are right. But they work hand in hand with wotc and they ended festival in a box a day or two before the ban which contained 3 of the 4 banned cards. There's .001% chance wotc didn't know about the ban while they were selling packs with those specific chase cards.

[@Lilbru123]

​@SohcSTi oh wizards new. but it's not just cold. it's evil. I don't blame the rc for this, it's all on wizards. they apparently knew as far back as putting lotus in the commanders set. Just another example of how greedy wizards are

[@dragonfafnir4487]

I dont even think they should be printing cards just for commander format. That's not what the heart and soul of commander is. I do think there needs to be bans. Wizards are getting out of control with the power level it just keeps stampeding upward.

[@e6staffsargeify]

The RC stated they've been working and talking on these vans for a year. Which means they used JL and Crypt as chase cards in sets knowing they would probably be banned. Further more the mystery booster 2 came with Masters and LCI. Almost as if WOTC was unloading those packs because they knew it would be banned to leading to those packs tanking afterwards.

[@aidanbagshaw3411]

I genuinely like the bans. I own one of every card that got banned and yeah I lost like 200$ in a day. but i also dont like what those cards did to the format.

[@drprofquesoamericano]

If edh is too slow for you have you considered: Any other format?

[@minine6508]

Listen man, this is how bans go. Just keep cards to replace the banned ones or take completely decks entirely. We've done it before and its no different this time

[@Travis7060312]

your argument about fractring the community is silly. People already get salty if you play those cards in certain pods. This just sets the baseline at where most people already are.

[@Krodny]

If you are running mana crypt, jewels lotus, and dockside in your deck, you aren’t playing casual commander/edh.

[@terribly_vexed]

I casually play high power EDH. So does Wubby. 🖕

[@ABrutalAnimal]

Says who? My entire pod plays $10k+ decks. Some people like casual games that take less than an hour

[@MeemoTV]

Dude's talking like 8s don't exist

[@DrGaryNope]

@@terribly_vexed wubby has spent more on magic than a lot of people earn in their entire lives, he's not doing anything casually in magic

[@catboy57392]

​@@ABrutalAnimal youre not a casual if you pay 10k per deck, power levels be damned no casual pays even above 200 dollars 💀

[@jonweikert5521]

Saying sol ring is almost strictly better than mana crypt is an insane take

[@Lilbru123]

thank you! there's basically a canyon between 1 mana and 0 mana when it comes to power. crypt is sooooo much better than sol ring

[@grazzhopper6799]

not insane at all, for one mana more you get the same mana AND don't take damage for it.

[@jeffreystewart6803]

​@@grazzhopper6799the damage is negligent in a 40 life format

[@geek593]

​@@jeffreystewart6803Yeah the damage worry is Timmy City. When all that matters is executing game winning combos who cares about incremental damage?

[@bohab787]

​@@geek593sad k'rrik noises

[@Vitox96]

there is no fracture, there is no issue. These are banned cards. If you want to play Kitchen Table you arent playing commander. Dont try to play with randoms with banned cards. I will proxy and have ready the entirety of the Ban List to slot in decks just to shut down people asking to ignore the bans, to show them how stupid they are. Ah yeah sure you can play the Jeweled Lotus, i will play the Black Lotus, have fun. Ah btw my commander is Drannith Magistrate, even if he isnt legendary i guess we are all ok with that.

[@andrewsmitley]

Most commander players would rather all 4 of these cards be gone. I dont want to play against any of these cards

[@andrewsmitley]

And for anyone bringing up rule Zero, that shit doesn't work in an assigned placement pod that people pay for. I've been in pods that I've paid for where people decide that having Mana crypt and mox diamond and all this shit is normal. You can't rule Zero these cards out of their deck they have a right to play them because they're legal cards

[@kurtf3441]

@@andrewsmitley Exactly. Ban list should serve pick-up groups at LGSes and tournaments, where Rule 0 is a hassle. Rule 0 in general is so ridiculous. Absolutely wild that some people are so socially inept that they need an external group of people to tell you "You know, you can actually talk to your friends and come up with a mutual agreement of how you want to play"

[@andrewsmitley]

@@kurtf3441 exactly, I have a group I play with regularly, of course we play how we wanna play, it's me and my fuckin buddies. No rules committee at my buddies house, if he wants to try out a banned commander idc, but not at an LGS where I don't know any of these people

[@spacewizardpip1111]

@@andrewsmitleythat is normal though. If it’s a paid pod to play that normally means people are trying to win n stuff. I’m assuming you’re paying to win a prize or something. Edit: lol. My LGS has like two areas. It has dedicated Cedh players duking it out, and it also has basic everything else. All the “my deck is a 7”, lmao

[@andrewsmitley]

@spacewizardpip1111 Yes there are prizes. Everyone pays in 2 packs essentially and 1st gets 4, 2nd gets 2, 3rd and 4th get 1. This is low stakes and is labeled "Casual Commander". Casual is not the place for Mana crypt, $200 is the entire worth of some of my decks! I do believe that it should be unbanned for cEDH completely, no reason to not let them do whatever they want idc

[@wagatron7697]

The conspiracy shit is sending Wubby on his Jeremy Hambly arc

[@d3lta227]

this isn't affecting broke or rich people it's affecting power hungry players who abuse the same strategies instead of creating some new unique playstyles. there are literally millions of other cards you can choose from just do some research like i know you mfs already do to find the same infinite combo with your shiny new mana crypt. as far as selling collector chase cards for cheap right before they banned it and/or selling those cards after fetting some insider info, that's obviously fucked up. that's not what i'm talking about. i'm talking about any player who spends a band on a piece of cardboard simply because everybody already likes it and abuses it for the same reasons. hell i'd even be fine with sol ring being gone but the only thing about it is that, like wubby said, it's printed in every precon they make. it's NOT expensive and VERY easily accessible and therefore it is/can be already used by EVERYONE, not just the power hungry players who want to put that much money into it. you can still have fast games without any of these, ur just gonna have to find new cards for a change

[@Cryogenicbanana]

There is no good reason to have cards like these in a casual format, especially if they are so expensive they're inaccessible to the majority of the player base, the bans were 100% justified.

[@SohcSTi]

Salty take. If it's inaccessible to the majority of players then it isn't a big enough problem to warrant a ban. Besides, have you ever heard the back story of Black Lotus from Richard Garfield?

[@valgeir80]

Then proxy... but nahh you want the real thing but if you can't have them nobody should. Thats why you agree with the ban.

[@Cryogenicbanana]

@@valgeir80 i did proxy them they still don’t belong in a casual format.

[@Imanmagnet00]

@@valgeir80 Why wrong with wanting the real thing?

[@yoshimonkey645]

Saying you’ll have divides when going to pods that play by the rules and causing whiplash from your own pods house ruling an unban is for sure a statement of all time

[@hindmunter]

and oh my god what an insane fucking divide it is. jesus christ he'll have to replace TWO CARDS, how will he ever get onto shuffle up and play again???

[@jeffreystewart6803]

​@hindmunter what do you all expect from someone who wastes money on vintage box openings

[@joebidden9567]

Wubby first of all I love you, big fan. Second of all I disagree with every single one of your takes in this video. I think the bans are good for the format, if you deck is ruined from these cards being banned it was never a good deck in the first place.

[@andrew3606]

Wubby hasn't been a low power budget player since any of us have known about him so I don't know why his opinion would matter on this lol. Getting krikk'd turn 1 on casual commander night sucks.

[@ghoulKA]

and i will, still, do it now in the format without a sweat (maybe turn 2) and make all of you miserable 😘

[@tankeruber1337]

@@ghoulKA I'm sure you will get to do it once. After that, good luck soyman.

[@ghoulKA]

@@tankeruber1337 thanks man, eating my soy, smashing your precons 😋

[@Aaron-sb6kx]

@@ghoulKAno one wants to play with you blud 💀

[@insufficientdirections9476]

@@ghoulKAI will pick up your card and eat it

[@devonmack982]

sol ring is not strictly better. It cost one mana. It's strictly worse. Mana crypt for zero mana gets you 2 colorless for maybe three life a turn. You need a mana at least to play the sol ring. Having nothing turn one and still being able to play stuff with free spells is a huge boon. Thats why all the moxs are banned and restricted and they actually go away after the first use.

[@MuuzikTV]

This video kinda felt out of touch wubbz. Being a person that has multiples of each of these it makes sense, it destroys casual commander and if your group likes playing with it that’s fine, that’s always been what’s commanders about. But when someone has a precon at a lgs and because these cards aren’t banned they say “ThEsE CaRdS ArE CaSuAl” they’re not, they outscale 99% of the other cards besides one, sol ring. Drawing into a sol ring turn 1 or two is exciting. Having a mana crypt or jeweled lotus start every other game is not. Still love all the vids, just not this one

[@Cpt.NateHiggers]

OR, here's a CRAZY idea, have multiple decks? Have a precon laying around when new players shows up? Why should anyone sit through 3 extra turns of "Land and Pass" just because there's a chance that "Someone might show up with a precon", I have only 1 day to play magic every week if I'm lucky, I wanna get as many games in as possible and have as much fun as possible with my expensive cardboards.

[@Noalwyn]

This sounds like an issue with your lgs more than anything, tbh. Any reasonable player who regularly attends their lgs and wants newer players to get into the game should have a lower power deck with them.

[@PAGameRoom]

Most people who hold this opinion think cedh is a valid expression of player skill. Forced to play commander in a way that it was never intended because people have been guided into commander as new players now. Thats all that fires in many places.

[@perfectsweetheart]

Why is drawing into a Sol Ring exciting, but drawing into a Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus isn't? Rule zero is kind of stupid but it is necessary for a format with as much power disparity as commander. "Do you run fast mana, tutors, or taxation?" then you choose a suitable deck or a different pod. EZ. From a player's perspective, wubby is 100% correct. Nothing should be banned in commander outside of tournament play.

[@satanpancakes2351]

​@@perfectsweetheartThink about how good a turn 1 sol ring is. Now imagine if you ran 3 or 4 cards that had the same effect. When you only run one card with that effect, it's rare and exciting but also sets you far ahead of the rest of the table. When you run Jeweled Lotus, Mana Crypt, and even Mana Vault, each single card draw becomes a 4 in 99 chance of drawing a game altering card that sets you at a huge advantage. You start with 7 cards in your opening hand, meaning there is a 28% chance you will open with a bomb that sets you far ahead. It takes away from the randomness and makes your deck consistently further ahead than everyone else at the table. When those cards are so game altering that opening with them usually results in a win, you might as well play rock paper scissors for an hour rather than play commander. When there's only a 1% chance of having a big opening, it just adds spontaneity to the playgroup.

[@agosta44]

Easier to rule 0 in a banned card than asking someone to power down because 'oh then my deck doesn't work'

[@s3anb0i40]

personally i don't care either way. i just think it's bullshit that they have all these "staple commander cards" that are worth like 50-120 dollars for ONE CARD. it's nonsense, like why do i have to be loaded to play the game

[@domninin]

Because WotC cares more about the vendors selling cards on the secondary market than about the players getting to play with the cards they want, because that is who they are making the majority of their profits from. At this point just proxy every card above 5$.

[@WheelbarrowTim]

This is why I just proxy any card over a certain value

[@jacobgober3875]

The bans are based tbh. Many of these cards should never have been printed in the first place

[@thecreed926]

Boo! Neither JL, Crypt or Dockside were ruining the format. Dockside being gone means red lost a good ramp source (something we don't have).

[@recce_5.0.freedom59]

Gaeas cradle still exists. Not banned. Your statement invalid.

[@CGA003]

Man the fact that you call this ban "out of touch" is insanely ironic. Wubby hate to break it to you but you are the out of touch one here. I have yet to hear from a *single* casual player who disagrees with these bannings. The only people I hear from who complain about this are people who treat this game like a stock market and are mad that their "investments" have just tanked in value. You say that it will "hurt our trust in new magic product"? GOOD. It's completely insane these cards cost this much in the first place. If people are going to be scared to buy new cards for fear of them not retaining value, then that makes everything CHEAPER for those of us who can barely afford to play magic in the first place. Gotta say I'm real disappointed to hear this from you, I expected better. I'm sorry you and your rich friends might have to experience what magic is like for the rest of us who need to worry about rent before considering spending more than 10 bucks on a single card.

[@valgeir80]

Thank you for your honesty. You agree with the ban because you can't afford the cards.

[@noahboone524]

I’m against these bans and I almost never play with or against these cards. Because rule 0 exists. I talk to my pod.

[@modestscrub4667]

Buying cards to play is not an “investment” I’m sick of people saying that. All of the people I play with aren’t rich and having these cards taken away sucks when you saved to purchase these cards.

[@noahboone524]

@@modestscrub4667 Exactly. People saying “this feels bad monetarily” can’t be completely written off with the same brush we paint investment bros. If someone purchased a movie ticket, and the theater closed halfway through the movie, they’d feel rightfully ripped off. If a game shuts it’s servers less than a month after releasing the game, people who purchased it will feel like they were mislead. 0 empathy from OP here, but you know what they say about OP

[@bojkashapirax6283]

​@@modestscrub4667 The cards weren't taken away, though! The point of the ban list isn't for a distinguished pod, you can still play them just fine. It's for the power level of unknown players playing for the first time and even then, you can still have a turn 1 discussion with those people if you feel strongly about it. I personally like the bans for casual, LGS play. My personal pod will likely keep Jewelled Lotus and Mana Crypt unbanned, though. That's the point of turn 0 discussions, the rules committee is more a list of suggestion when playing with players you don't know.

[@日暮れ-l5m]

Seems like a conflict between the new players trying to get into playing and saying well I need to drop $50+ plus on a hand full of cards to even be competitive with friends and those who already have those cards. I think when there are cards that are so good that they are considered must haves in every deck that is a problem, it creates a price wall and eventually makes every deck the same.

[@elm0damian166]

All cards that become staples should be reprinted to OBLIVION to the point they are worth cents like sol ring, then they can print pretty ones that can be worth whatever people want them to be.

[@zmichalo13]

Out of these four cards, only 1 saw play in over 15% of edh decks. Most people arent going to be impacted by this at all. Of those who are, a significant majority of them will be positively impacted by not getting pubstomped at locals by the one player lucky enough to own/draw one of these.

[@thetruegham6378]

If slow commander is boring then you should just play standard lol. Commander is casual not meant to be blitzed bro

[@tastyrick]

When you get into a pod with 3 other guys. Don't forget the foreplay. You can't rush it.

[@thetruegham6378]

@@tastyrick I get to play magic once a month. The last thing I want is to play and deal with sweaty bullshit man. I just wanna have fun and play cards

[@tastyrick]

@thetruegham6378 Me too, man. Which is why I would rather get in 3 games with a few decks than one long game. Nothing is worse than when you are 2.5 hours into a game, and you can see people's eyes glazing over. A good commander game should be paced like a tight 90-minute movie. Every move advances the story.

[@thetruegham6378]

@@tastyrick without those cards your games shouldn’t be taking that long. Youre playing slow on purpose at that point 90 min is about average without these cards in my pod.

[@AoiYumejha]

This is why I say we need to bring back the "banned AS Commander vs banned in 99" list too.

[@KodamaoftheWeastTree]

These might be the best bans the committee have ever done, and I can’t wait to see more

[@ramsoomair]

Oh my God, Ryan included everything before the pack opening as instructed by AI Wubby.

[@Rootbeer365]

100% a bad take. Wubby has such warped meta that he plays with. At an LGS nothing feels worse than bringing an upgraded precon that slams a crypt and jlo on turn 1. I get the investment side, but thats always going to be true when expensive cards exist in a format where bans can happen.

[@RowdiesFan1]

I don't own any of these cards so don't have a dog in this. I'm generally against the banning of JL and MC. But people are absolutely taking this too far in their anger about the decision directed at the members of the Committee.

[@loneshadow29]

the only people who are "outraged" by the recent ban are either people who bought these cards at market value, had a bunch of them in supply because of the same value, or the cedh players who constantly use them in their decks. if any casual players had these cards in their decks, it's either because they managed to luck out and get the cards in those old boosters or they did what a lot of commander players do and proxied it. people will still be able to play them, just not at any sanctioned events, which usually those would be present

[@redhood1994]

I would never save up for a mana crypt when the proxy runs for a dollar anything over 20 i proxy and it feels great.

[@gabecastillo1634]

Ur a smart player, idk why people complain about prices when u can proxy it doesn’t make sense, I don’t own any proxies but it’s gonna have to happen after a ban like this

[@figicool]

Yeah no I'm all for this. Public commander nights just got so much better. Cope

[@coldpizza9028]

Fuck that. Stay at you low power tables then 😂😂😂 goofy

[@johnpratts2856]

The copium has failed. The rules committee quit.

[@peterspeth111]

these bans are great for commander they just need to make a separate ban list for cedh, love wubby but hes out of touch

[@ShyLoo1994]

That’s a lot of words for saying “I’m poor”

[@wedgearyxsaber]

​@@ShyLoo1994 And yours were even fewer to say "I'm out of touch of edh communities"

[@thecreed926]

How are they great? Slowing games down is bad. It happened and we will have to figure out how this looks. But I think that slower games are terrible. The people that are happy about this are often people who think that not having this card makes decks worse. Not true. You can win without having these cards. I also don't own these cards btw.

[@ShyLoo1994]

@@wedgearyxsaber no, the edh communities in my town aren’t scared of a piece of cardboard. Plus anyone with a 1k collection likes games to not last 3 hours. Probably because we’re all rich and work so our time is just 10x more important than yours

[@thas4250]

This is what rule 0 is though, “hey our playgroup is fine with mana crypt, we’re playing it is fine with you?” I don’t think that’s too hard.

[@themagicalex]

"No, I prefer to follow the rules of the format." now what?

[@thas4250]

@@themagicalex then you don’t play it 😭🙏

[@Gilzing]

Nadu and Jeweled Lotus were cards printed for commander that were so powerful they became must have's in all decks. This is the RC checking MTG from exploiting the community.

[@MrIcefire99]

hard disagree with this one

[@hopperpeace]

in all aspects!

[@zacjones865]

The reason why proxies are so popular is because these cards weren't banned sooner

[@v_Esper]

The only thing im annoyed about is their BS excuse for not banning sol ring. It being not banned because its "iconic" is beyond stupid and everyone knows that. Lying to people by making this excuse really seems like the RC thinks most of us are stupid enough to believe their reasoning.

[@MuuzikTV]

@@v_Esper saying that sol ring isn’t iconic in commander is crazy. It’s literally been the staple and “meme” of the magic KZbin scene for the past 10 years. You know what hasn’t been the staple…MANA CRYPT AND JEWELED LOTUS. Mana crypt has been a staple in CEDH. So many bad takes here

[@v_Esper]

@@MuuzikTV I never said it wasn't iconic for the format. They admitted that the card fits their criteria for a ban but it's not banned only because it's iconic is a terrible reason.

[@MuuzikTV]

@@v_Esper how so? If they banned sol ring on top of mana crypt would everyone be happier? Not a chance. Not a single person has said that sol ring isn’t broken, it still has a cost rather 0, it’s accessible to everyone, and if they banned it the outrage would be 500x more than many crypt because of how player sol ring is rather the banned cards which are mostly seen in the higher power aka the extreme minority

[@v_Esper]

@@MuuzikTV If sol ring would be banned would everyone be happier? I'm sure some people would be angry but it shouldnt matter. Look at all the people mad about these bans. I dont know if you mistyped by saying that no one has said it ISNT broken but thats also a reason to ban it since everyone knows that it gives you a huge advantage. Its accessability shouldnt't be taken into consideration. There's already some research done that heavily corralates T1 sol rings converting into a win. Admittedly, the data is pretty old at this point. Sol ring is played so much because it is so good. The only difference between sol ring and crypt/jlo are the price points. Alot of people here have stated that the RC shouldnt care when a card was printed or the price point and I agree. sol ring being cheap and in every precon shouldnt be taken into account.

[@v_Esper]

@@MuuzikTV people wouldnt be happier initially but it would be better for the format. Look at how people reacted to these bans. Many people have said its broken. People have talked about it and have shown data that turn 1 sol rings have a higher win rate than not. Data is old but im sure it holds up. Accessability should not be taken into consideration. The RC should base all bans on power.

[@chrislijoi9997]

As a casual commander player, I liked these bans personally. You talked about people rule-0ing these cards into decks, but I found that pretty much every group I have ever played with in a store agrees on power level before busting out decks. I think that should be an important part of this discussion too. I want to give Wizards the benefit of the doubt on the festival in a box thing though. Maybe they just had extra packs lying around and wanted to get rid of them? Maybe it was for the timing of the ban? I don't know, but I think it's reading too much into it to suggest a correlation there.

[@collinbeal]

Methinks the Wubby doth protest too much 🤧🤧. They likely were looking at Dockside, said, "We would be chopped chicken if we didn't go after expensive free fast mana pieces, but the community would have us for lunch if we banned Sol Ring, a card in every precon," and winced as they punched the button. I guarantee you that there's not some absurd conspiracy.

[@CloutApe-eb6ev]

Professor also said Sol ring is stronger than either Lotus and Crypt. It should be banned as well. Even before the RC deleted itself. They said I quote with the release of the bannings," We should also talk about the elephant in the room. We’re not banning Sol Ring and have no desire to. Yes, based on the criteria we’ve talked about here, it would be banned." Glad the RC is gone. What a joke of a ""committee""

[@zacbachusz9887]

Wubby putting in overtime at the salt mines

[@maxfoegen9451]

I’ve played in LGS’s every week for years and I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve seen a dockside. Same goes for crypt and lotus. These cards are so expensive that nobody can really afford them anyway. So in a way these bans are irrelevant and the people who are aggressively against them are the just small minority of players who bought these expensive cards. Tldr: these bans aren’t going to affect the format in any meaningful way for the majority of players.

[@ethangadbois9269]

One thing I don’t fully understand or agree with from banning dockside, is that banning mana crypt and assuming that they’ll follow by banning other 0 mana artifacts, will inherently reduce dockside’s effectiveness to a point of not needing to be banned

[@user-sz1qk3ug2x]

What are your thoughts if a point system were to be used like Canadian Highlander?

[@slammgames7425]

This does seem like a very biased opinion towards the people that can afford these cards in the first place.

[@valgeir80]

Same can be said about those who agree with the ban because the cards were expensive.

[@TheOrionsPhantom]

@@valgeir80 expensive cards are usually strong. cheaper cards are more accessible to everyone, expensive cards are not. makes sense why they'd be biased towards the ban.

[@nhojpodge]

He literally says every time to proxy. Whats biased about it when he belives no card should cost this much to play a game?

[@gabecastillo1634]

@@nhojpodge 95% of the player base doesn’t care about proxies, I don’t understand why people complain about what other people have when they can print the same card and play with it, it’ll never make sense to me

[@Aaron-sb6kx]

Hard disagree, these were good bans for the health of the game. People are just upset because a piece of cardboard they bought went down in value. MTG finance bros are a cancer to the community

[@KazeOo]

WotC is the problem not the people who bought their products and got scammed. This has nothing to do with the specific bans for me (CEDH should just break off and be it's own format imo). It's the way they sold and marketed product KNOWING the RC would ban it. "Let us get this soon to be garbage out the door so we can keep doubling our profits year on year like we promised papa Hasbro." I do think they had some pull on the RC to to make them not go ahead with the bans until they had dumped it on the players. By that metric if you have ever payed money for a real Magic product guess you're a finance bro then and you should f right off. People with money enough to buy expensive cardboard are the ones who will be impacted the least. Let's f all LGSes too while we are at it because they invest in cardboard! LGSes are a cancer to the community with your logic. It's blatant fuckery. Imagine somebody markets and sells you something they know will not work in a week and they do this because THEY KNOW THIS. But then they point at the fine print to get past consumer protection laws. Would you keep doing business with them after they fool you like that? This is what the outrage is mostly about, not losing X amount in value. F WotC not the players.

[@puffcap_]

The bans ARE good, they keep the core values of commander in line with what they should be. Commander is an inherently inconsistent, diverse, slow format. Just because some players decided to find the optimal lines to win, doesnt mean they cant do it again now that these cards are banned. Also for the sol ring argument, its ok to have one powerful mana rock. It's 1 of 99 cards. As you have more and more legal mana rocks of similar strength it becomes more and more consistent you will have one or more in play. Because sol ring is printed so often they decided the 1 that gets to stay will be that and some of the others are removed (rightfully so)

[@dat_man_sam9823]

If you're financially ruined by these bans then you shouldn't have bought these cards to begin with.

[@LeroyJENKINZZ-j6l]

Why ever buy product again if it’s a scam?

[@dat_man_sam9823]

@@LeroyJENKINZZ-j6lMy comment is more for people buying these cards as singles with the expectation that they will appreciate in value. Buying product isn't a scam. You are going in knowing you probably won't get a specific card. You're gambling.

[@ETK_]

Bad takes tbh, all of these cards are too powerful to play with at LGS’s (games that aren’t CEDH). My only negative experience in playing magic is when playing with people who say “my deck is a 7” and have crypt, lotus, and dockside. Play in your pods if you want. I think that there will be a CEDH and a EDH commander ban list or a tier system like wizards is currently working on. The essence of commander is casual, singleton format, that sometimes takes hours to play out, with player going back and forth, swinging on who has the upper hand. If you want to play fast, solitary, or stop people from playing the game, go for it. Some people play to win, others play to have fun.

[@MrAmazing3]

Commander isn't just a casual format, it's a friendly format. Four people coming together to have an interesting and balanced game. You know what's not interesting? Having the same five or six mana rocks in every deck. That's boring as hell. You know what's not friendly? Throwing down your commander turn one and wasting everyone's time as they wait for you to capitalize on your substantial lead in board state, wasting turns as they finally get their commanders out one turn before you go lethal. I'm tired of hearing people say that these bans are bad for the format when the only people who say so are the ones who have no problem dropping $200-300 on every deck they build. I'd like to see the cost of Wubby's 24 "casual" decks because i have a feeling not a single one is under $150.

[@fire2day]

It's nice to see Olivia from over at Commander At Home was the one on the committee that opposed these bans.

[@Sammich_Meat]

I respectfully disagree with a bit of this video, apart from where you say who this affects. I see so many people saying that this affects the "rich players" and seeing people making fun of mtg finance bros, while i'm not saying this doesnt affect the finance bros, it truly damages both the wallets and the goodwill of the people who saved up for one and proxy the rest, like you said. What's the point of buying any of the free commander spells like fierce guardianship or deadly rollick, or any card only playable in commander? This is just me spitballing things throughout the video: The idea of banning the concept card, in my eyes, is not a bad thing; but its not good either. In casual, it forces more creative deckbuilding or just general changes to the format. Slotting in fast mana like lotus or crypt into a "jank" deck doesn't make it strong, it just makes it inconsistent. You'll maybe have those cards turn 1, but then you're the target and your "jank" is unable to keep up with that targeting. These kinds of cards in jank creates a bad play experience for your opponents because they have no idea when you're going to drop 5 mana for free and when youre going to be struggling to play the deck. What I mean by this not being a good thing, while not being a bad thing, is where i agreed with you. This damages community goodwill and the willingness of people to buy expensive cards. When something gets banned in a format like pioneer or modern, you can count on it being playable in commander, where you can play pretty much any card from magic's history, thats what makes it cool. But with these bannings it doesn't seem like that's the case anymore. As I wrote this, i found myself contradicting myself, but I dont want to rewrite anything so i'll keep it as is. So my final opinion on it is that these cards shouldn't have been banned. I can agree with you that cEDH should have its own banlist, but what determines what cEDH is? Of course, official tournament play would adhere to these rules, but what happens when someone's so-called "strong casual" deck is now stronger than a cEDH deck because it's able to ignore these bannings? I don't think this is an easy issue to solve because of the casual nature of commander when you compare it to a 60-card format. There are no rule-zero discussion when playing pioneer. "Hey im playing amalia in pioneer, is that ok?" no its not, youre not playing pioneer at this point. But that same question but replaced with Nadu, now you have to ask "am I playing casual or cEDH?" This whole discussion is ultimately meaningless when looking at it from a gameplay perspective, because everyone has their own playgroups with their own house rules.

[@GoldfishP22]

Oh, and I did a little bit of math in terms of how often you would normally see a turn one with mana crypt by using EDHREC’s numbers for mana crypts and sol rings You would see turn one in on average. You would see a turn one mana crypt 2% of games and sol ring 20% of games. So when the RC says explosive games are good every once in a while they are fine with one in five games not one in fifty.

[@taylortodd8842]

Can almost guarantee if the alternative was reprint these cards into the dirt everyone saying the ban is bad would change their mind

[@Morkins324]

Yeah, these cards are fucking stupid to play against and if they were as ubiquitous as Sol Ring it would be WAY worse for the format. I'm willing to live with Sol Ring being legal because 1/99 cards being Sol Ring is livable. But you play against a deck that has Sol Ring and Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt... I'm sorry but I'm just going to leave the table and play somewhere else. The opportunity cost for including those cards was basically zero. They could easily slot into 3/99 slots in basically every single deck and they would 100% make the deck better. The only reason why they weren't crushingly oppressive to the format was because their price prevented a lot of people from doing that. At least with Mox Diamond or Mox Opal or Chrome Mox, they only ramp 1 mana and Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox are card disadvantage in that you have to go down a card to use them. Mana Crypt's life loss was functionally irrelevant to commander, especially when it enabled Turn 4 or Turn 5 wins. Jeweled Lotus enabled scenarios where 7 Mana Commanders could hit the board on TURN 2 with a strong draw or turn 3 with a thoroughly average draw... And Dockside was the rare card that increased in power level as the power level of the table increased. So if you had a high power deck that ran Dockside, and then people at your LGS adjusted their decks to try to match the power level of your deck, then Dockside got better and better as the people at your LGS tried to improve their decks to match you. So, without even changing your deck, the power level would increase even further as people tried to metagame and improve their decks to match your deck, which means that they have to push the power level of their decks even further. So if you have a deck with Dockside that is a 7/10 power level and your playgroup has a bunch of 5/10 or 6/10 power level decks, then the rest of the playgroup upgrades to a 7/10 power level to match your deck, well the increased power level of the other decks means that Dockside is now pushing your deck up to an 8/10 power level because Dockside is that much stronger against the high power level decks that your playgroup has now. The problem isn't banning Dockside or Jeweled Lotus. The problem is that these cards should have never existed to begin with. Mana Crypt was banned because if you are banning those other two, then you kind of should ban Mana Crypt. Arguably, Sol Ring should be banned as well, but it is so tied to the identity of commander that it gets a pass. And as I said above, I am willing to live with Sol Ring, but I'm less willing to live with 3-4 copies of cards that accelerate mana that much.

[@MeemoTV]

@@Morkins324 Maybe you shouldn't sit down with your jank pile at a high power pod

[@Morkins324]

@@MeemoTV Even in a High Powered pod, Jeweled Lotus + Mana Crypt + Sol Ring create wildly imbalanced games. The player that draws and plays them on Turn 1 has a DRASTICALLY higher chance of winning the game. And if all 4 players are playing all three of the fast mana cards, that means that 64% of games are being warped by Fast Mana. I am fine with Fast Mana creating occasional games that are warped by their presence. I am fine with Sol Ring existing in the format. I am not fine with 2/3rds of my games being warped by fast mana. I am not fine with all three of the cards existing at the same time in the format. Even high powered games are ruined by these cards.

[@MeemoTV]

@@Morkins324 I don't have that problem in higher powered games, because those games also have interaction to deal with it. If you don't have interaction to deal with those situations, then your deck isn't high powered and not supposed to be at that pod.

[@Morkins324]

@@MeemoTV Interaction doesn't solve the fact that it puts one player significantly ahead of the rest of the table. Someone did a sample of nearly 200 commander games and found that a Turn 1 Sol Ring contributes an immediate +3% to win percentage. Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus have similar impact. It is possible to deal with fast mana, but it warps the game. It forces the other three players to deal with the player that has fast mana, which means that whomever uses their resources to solve the problem is down resources to deal with the other players. The player that is worst positioned in the game is the one that uses their interaction to deal with the fast mana player. So in order of hierarchy, the Fast Mana player is MOST ADVANTAGED by the presence of Fast Mana, the 2 players that didn't deal with the Fast Mana player are next, and the player that used their interaction to deal with the Fast Mana is most disadvantaged.

[@odhrandoherty8689]

People were complaining that CRC was hiding behind rule 0. If you've been playing for years, you can make your own decision. This is for John Precon. It's guidance, Wubby, hope this helps

[@odhrandoherty8689]

It's telling that the people with the money are the ones complaining

[@sebanimates5664]

This is Wizard’s problem and to be blamed not the commander rule committee

[@wagatron7697]

For sure! Other than mana crypt, none of these cards should have been printed

[@Occoms_Phazor]

Sorry Wubby but this is a bad take. I and every person in my pods are all ok with this. The stupid price that these NECCISARY cards exist in makes it hard to keep up. Someone that has like 2 decks, played for 3 years vs the dude who's got 10 years and bought these when they were 1/8th the price is not fair. They weren't reprinting enough and the price was too high.

[@-HASH]

Price is not an issue for a man with a printer, just saying.

[@dragonfafnir4487]

The whole this hirts low in decks is crazy just tell your pod you put a mana crypt in your janky deck. They probably won't care as long as you keep it low power, but I would say that those cards are mostly in gross decks. Plus, he counters his own argument he says it's easy to slot something in a powerful deck to replace these cards. But complains about going to other pods and them not wanting those cards?

[@lukek.5773]

good bans the cards were bad for the format

[@tnomatt]

I disagree with everything you said 👍

[@TheXGamerX16]

So edgy! 👍

[@vegetableoil1383]

I agree with you here. Fast mana and dockside are just crutches that lead to less unique deckbuilding. Commander is a perfectly fine format without fast mana. And the fact he called the coin flip of mana crypt as “engaging” is bonkers. I can say with owning at least 1 real copy of each of these that i will not miss them whatsoever

[@xZYTECx]

@@TheXGamerX16since when is having a different opinion edgy mate 🤷

[@gabecastillo1634]

@@vegetableoil1383 those cards make less viable commanders somewhat more viable to build in the format especially expensive ones mana wise

[@kidhowmoons]

Hey, don't wanna play a slow game for 2 hours? Play Standard. Guess what, you can play Pauper too! Hell, did you know you can play any format multiplayer?!?! Did you know that when you're playing Mtg with friends, or a "pod" as you call it, you can just use any card you like! It's this amazing thing called "Playing a game of Magic". EDH, however, is full of whiners.

[@SketchyTinkerer]

MTG Finance bros looked into the sold listings before the banning and WOW, SCG took down their buylist listings for the banned cards 2 weeks BEFORE the announcement. Nothing to see here, folks...

[@gamblorthemonster]

People only care because of the value drop. If these cards weren't $100+ you wouldn't care

[@LeroyJENKINZZ-j6l]

People care because these cards were marketed to people as a chase card and abruptly banning them right after is BS had they not done this I’d take the L , come on dude

[@gamblorthemonster]

@@LeroyJENKINZZ-j6l The RC at that time didn't work for WOTC, so they (RC) didn't have anything to do with what was being sold by WOTC. Commander never should have been turned into a MTG product or official format. Cards get banned all the time. I think the rule should have been you can have one of the three big mana rocks in your deck; Jeweled Lotus, Sol Ring, or Mana Crypt.

[@scepx81]

i legit JUST pulled a borderless jeweled lotus and i tell my friend cause i was so happy, he called me laughing hysterically because he broke the news to me that it JUST got banned

[@ThatDiecastGuy69]

imagine a world where everything cost the price of a modern land basic .05, literally a nickle, every single card, everything was printed with no artificial scarcity, because every card game has artificial scarcity, it would get rid of all the problematic patties out there, the collectors. Go ahead and collect a full set, it will cost you maybe 10 bucks in total, you could play the game and make 10/20/30 complete decks without having to move around a single card, then everybody would have fun, except the collectors and investors, oh and Hasbro, they would be mad that ink on card stock went from making them bank to just making them enough to keep a single printing line on

[@valgeir80]

"oh and hasbro" Yeah, I'm sure that would really incentivize them to make great sets.

[@FunktapusGaming4Lyf]

i would love all my Matchbox cars from the 70s to be remade in china for 10p so that i could enjoy having them all. even though they feel and look like dog crap. Do you see what i'm saying here? You do, you just dont want to see the correlation. cheap products dont keep a company alive. playing and collecting card games should be difficult. Over-printing kills games. I dont know how much more obvious i need to be.

[@lukeivan1]

"Imagine a world where Magic became wholly unprofitable" is one of the most short-sighted takes out there

[@bojkashapirax6283]

​@@FunktapusGaming4Lyf This is strictly untrue. YuGiOh is a larger card game than MtG, it purposefully reprints sets constantly for avaliablity and to lessen blooming second hand markets. Not agreeing with the primary post of every card should be a nickle, but the second hand market in Magic is specifically bonkers. Lowering overall card prices by increasing prints would help most players, and only hurt the loud majority.

[@MCXL1140]

And if everything was that price not a single person would complain about these bands because they are so obviously warranted from a gameplay perspective. How much they warp the curve and stunt games before they have a chance to develop.