The Ingenue Trope: Innocent, Naive and On Her Way Out

[@thetake]

WATCH MORE: The pretty girl trope speaks to a sense of "pretty privilege", but how can that actaully be disadvantageous? Here's our TAKE: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l3qlp2WkmsiVnrc

[@MarshalMarrs]

Hot actresses are one of the sources of my sex addiction. 😣😖😢😭

[@trinaq]

Sandy from "Grease" starts off as your typical ingenue, innocent and easily led, prior to her dramatic makeover. It was obviously supposed to be a spin on "Bad Bay changes thanks to the love of a good woman" trope prevalent in 50's teen movies, but hasn't really held up as well in modern years.

[@acsaudiodramas]

Disney's Rapunzel was a typical Ingenue. She grew up locked away from the world with Gothel's lies and her own rich imagination. And she helped the leading man to findhimself and grow. It's nice she was allowed to grow herself in the story and following TV show

[@ajstudios9210]

Yeah, if you can call her development in the TV series "growth". She learns to take charge more as a leader, and is arguably a better leader than her father was. But there are still things she did that made her an annoying character later on and rather pushy and condescending. 😒

[@nataliapanfichi9933]

​@@ajstudios9210 the Disney version of snow white is also an angenue because she is girly, childish, naive, shy, as angelically pure as a virgen nun and gives off to sweet and nice for this sinful world vibes.

[@emiliananixon9353]

Whenever I think of this trope I always think of Cher from clueless. Obviously she was naive in a different way because financially she didn’t have to think about certain things but she always had such a childlike feel to her. Idk maybe it’s just me and how I remembered the movie.

[@madisonj5136]

More modern interpretation of the ingenue

[@nataliaalfonso2662]

She’s Emma

[@nataliaalfonso2662]

@@madisonj5136well I mean…. She’s literally jane Austen’s Emma

[@emiliananixon9353]

@@nataliaalfonso2662 I always forget it’s a modern retelling lol!

[@Foxygirl558]

I think of Britney Spears, sexy, catholic, southern school girl at age 17 years old. And all those early interviews in 1999.

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

I don’t want this trope to be completely out of fashion. Like me, there are people that are naive and innocent, but agree that it is not their whole character. I wish what was explored more was why they are this way. My mom eased me into stuff. She waited until I was ready and mature to talk about certain topics. However, my dad wanted me to remain innocent, but the more my parents did not talk to me about stuff, the more naive I was. By the way, my parents are not bad parents. They just worry about me. And my mom understands more now about what to tell me and what not to. It wasn’t just them. My peers and classmates were like that too. They were always afraid to swear in front of me or talk about sex and other touchy topics. This is what makes people naive, especially women at times. I also look young for my age which adds to this. While and these characters don’t need to be experts at everything, we shouldn’t be unknowledgeable either. I also hate when naivete is played off as a joke when it is sad at times. It also should not be seen as being unintelligent either. There is a difference.

[@madisonj5136]

Yeah I totally agree. Ugh I hate that people think we need kid gloves all the time

[@unsightedmelodies6801]

I can't count how many times people have apologized for swearing in front of me because I look younger than my age and am disabled. I can usually undercut it after the kneejerk sorry by saying "what the hell for" if it's too irksome.

[@voightkampffchamp]

The problem is that it's sexualized

[@gabrielleduplessis7388]

@@voightkampffchamp yeah, i forgot about that or repressed it. I also agree. I hate that part of it. They are a conquest and there is a intersectional component of virginity with being naive as well. It is not necessary. I guess I just want an accurate representation of it.

[@teruhashipleasenocrimefav5815]

The bigs problem is sexualization of ingenuity

[@alyssamitchell8191]

The ingenue is Hollywood’s original manic pixie dream girl.

[@daisybuchanan8205]

I couldn't agree more

[@Alehzinhah]

She just wasn't crazy 🤣, only stupid (in most cases)

[@MariaFromTheInternet]

I feel like the concept is still kicking around out there in Hollywood, actresses like Sydney Sweeney come to mind. When you mentioned Scarlett Johansson was just 17 years old in Lost in Translation, I actually had to rewind and do a quick Google search. That was a horrifying realization. It recontextualizes my view of the entire film, especially the opening scene with her in her underwear.

[@BloodyMary74]

I was schocked too. She played a high school graduate in Ghost World.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

The Ingenue is the reason we pile hate on female characters in general. Middle aged ingenues seem to be stereotypical Midwestern housewives. Kamala from Never Have I Ever, imo, is a good example of an ingenue who grows, matures, and gains more knowledge and backbone.

[@vins1979]

I love that show!!!

[@nuhbudi]

that’s such a good example

[@trinaq]

Agreed, I loved Kamala's character evolution over the course of the series, and how she still remained the same nice girl she'd always been, she just grew up more.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

@@trinaq She and Devi built each other up.

[@nataliapanfichi9933]

​​@@nuhbudianother sorta angenue is Katie/Cady from mean girls who has been homeschooled for years so when she tries to act like a normal highshoooler she comes off as a weirdo who has no idea what normal is like but is just playing along. Like some other characters make unuendoes , sex jokes or even ask her if she knows basic name brands and she's like wtf is this language¿?

[@jennys.2440]

This is something I've always been, I feel, and I always will be, externally and internally, I love people who seem/are childlike/youthful, no matter their age, gender, etc.

[@rainy905]

The Ingenue Trope is prevalent in the East in modern times. you can see it in some of their media. Anime, K-pop other forms of media still has this trope.

[@younglingmaid2526]

It sucks how these folks have to remain good people of the right morals for their fans when in reality, they’re human like everyone else. We’re all full of flaws. It must be exhausting to keep up this character.

[@marissawilson9460]

I’m a musical theatre performer and I regularly play Ingenue characters. There can be so much depth to them depending on the roll. It also depends on the interpretation of the character. I agree that some exist to just look pretty, but others truly are the main character of their story and go through as much or sometimes even more change than their male counterparts. A prime example of this is Cinderella in “Into The Woods”

[@tinkergnomad]

Dear gawd. Miley Cyrus going from Disney child star into her musical career embodies this so hard.

[@kelleyceccato7025]

In describing the ingenue of classic Hollywood, this video keeps showing clips of Scarlett O'Hara. As anyone who has actually seen Gone With the Wind knows, she is anything BUT an ingenue. Shots of Olivia deHavilland's Melanie would have been more on point. When an ingenue is well-written, she grows beyond her early naivete rather than being frozen there. She enters or gets thrown into situations where she must show bravery and resourcefulness and proves up to the task. A look at Mary Pickford's best film, Sparrows (1926), shows this in spades; while she fits the ingenue trope by being young and innocent, she's also a hero, a rescuer, as she leads a band of orphans in their escape from a work farm. There is some value in characters like these, even today. But they lose me when Innocence crosses the line into Ignorance and when "not very bright, I guess" is coded as part of a woman's appeal.

[@irondragonmaiden]

Thing of it is, the naive aspect can be a good character flaw for the character to either suffer consequences from for drama OR that s/he has to outgrow for character development. That would be a lot more meaningful to the character than the Ingenue who is only "special" because "high standard men" are attracted to her/love her and would destroy people for her sake (which, yeah, it's what makes characters like Elena Gilbert unbearable and I cheered when she finally died). Want to have a naive everyman? That can work for either sex for different reasons and gives the character a real flaw. The Ingenue? Only works if there's at least one "high status man" (AKA handsome, powerful, and/or rich) who is attracted to them.

[@AlasEtéreas]

I consider the ingenue the maiden archetype of the femenine: young, naive, beautiful, inexperienced and sometimes unaware of her own beauty. Think about Persephone. I'm honestly the perfect personification of this trope

[@kiseee1774]

persephone is a bad example of this because her as a goddess is much more matured and fierce than pop culture interpretations lead on. in the abduction myth she was carried off without consent at first and kept up her refusal, but its a story less about the personality and more of the story’s symbolism of death and rebirth. the greek word for maiden had nothing much to do with her being naive and innocent, it was an epithet for persephone because persephone was her role as bringer of destruction/death (or “to destroy”) and therefor considered very dangerous to say since she was dreadful. sorry i get really pressed with persephone into question since how ancient greeks worshipped and viewed her was completely different than pop culture ideas. 💀

[@jahirareyes1102]

@@kiseee1774 But, Persephone in ancient Greece did for many brides represent this transition to them it did feel,like this when being married and as you know when married ancient greek brides were normally young when about to marry,they were normally virgins as well, and they had to say bye to their family,prior life,girlhood and friends to enter the new task of being a wife.

[@elinat2414]

I do a little bit of amateur musical theatre. And as a young-ish soprano, I am always only considered for ingenue roles. This trope is still very much alive and well in musical theatre. No musical with a romance plot/subplot is complete without an ingenue that sings really pretty but often has the personality of a crisp bread...often because she isn't given the space in the show to display more depth, eg Cosette in Les Miserables, who has like 3 scenes in the whole 3 hour show.

[@trinaq]

I can thank Rachel from Glee for introducing me to this archetype in the very first episode. Although she may compare herself to an ingenue, she's far from the type herself.

[@kayliemcintosh7841]

I had no idea there was a word for this. This has been my identity the majority of my life. Very interesting.

[@embodyempathyemily8138]

It seems that historically, the ingenue (currently equal parts lover and maiden), was simplified down to virginal maiden. Marilyn Monroe integrated both the innocence of the maiden with the sex appeal of the lover, informing most ever ingenue to follow.

[@sophiejohnston5390]

It's super evident in the music industry as well with artists like Miley Cyrus and Britney Spears who are forced to go into the extreme side of being a "seductress." And i reckon it's because as a society, we like to categorise people into certain boxes e.g. the madonna whore complex.

[@amberm8946]

The last couple minutes had me sobbing. Women shouldn’t have to work so hard to be treated like human beings instead of caricatures, but I’m so hopeful about how our culture is changing

[@recoveryinreel]

Probably one of y'all's best and most honest videos in awhile. Very empathetic and truthful, you left and political or bias aside and I appreciate the content. More like these! ❤

[@outinsider]

I agree with this assessment, but I do want to add an interesting change in the last decade of the 2010s- Lupita Nyong'o, whose mainstream feature film debut as Patsy in 12 Years A Slave in which she won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar, was talked about as an ingenue during that award season. It was a very interesting dialogue. First, because the film accurately portrayed U.S. slavery as a human trafficking institution maintained by rape and kidnapping and Lupita was singled out for her encapsulating performance. Second, because the narrative from the reviews on talked about how there is a bright future ahead of her, and while Lupita is a woman of color in Hollywood where being Black still makes it harder for projects to present themselves as opportunities, the framing of Lupita as an ingenue was key towards her victory at the Oscars. Thirdly, Lupita wasn't naive in her interviews, showing her intelligence, wit, and tact in presenting herself, at the same time challenging the ingenue in real life while being one in a film of heavy weight. As Hollywood confronts its white supremacy practices, Lupita has forged a career well considering the circumstances and amplified by that Oscar win. I would say that Lupita Nyong'o both was an ingenue and the challenge to the system of ingenue in Hollywood at the same time.

[@chrissiem3958]

If there is one thing more disturbing than the paired contrast of 'sexy and childlike', it's the fact that it was the f*cking norm in cinema (and society) for so long.... PS, I know its still the mindset of many disgusting, Andrew Tate-esque men, but at least women are now working to reject it....

[@byDEVITA]

We are live in free world, so if woman want to be sexy and childish she can be sexy and childish

[@capucinej9319]

Thanks for the video! I'm surprised you guys didn't talk about the connection between the male desire for the ingenue on-screen and the grooming of young female stars in real life. The tale is as old as time, and it's extremely prevalent outside of Hollywood as well. To me, there's nothing wrong with the ingenue character itself. It's that such a child-like character is eliciting such strong sexual reactions from adult men. It's so disturbing. I'm also always very interested in how Marilyn Monroe's legacy is viewed. Her on-screen portrayals often reflected the real life pressure for her to have a woman's sexuality in a young lady's body, which sadly many Hollywood execs exploited on- and off-screen.

[@CrimsonNineTail]

Never heard of this troupe til today. Like watching these little videos on the troupes of Hollywood.

[@marcellacassab4331]

I haven't even watched this video yet, but I'm growing kind of tired of "this kind of person/personality/flaw is no longer acceptable to write because modern day politics." As a writer it's starting to feel almost claustrophobic. The range of acceptable character architypes growing narrower everyday. Especially if you want to write diverse main characters.

[@artmonkey24]

I'm getting tired of it, too. This is literally just another variation of the Persephone archetype. An archetype that's been around since the beginning of civilization. Why? Not because of perverts but because of human nature. There will always be ingenues and people will always want to hear their stories just like so many other archetypes.

[@juliannehannes11]

THANK YOU

[@kilimanjaro5537]

I agree and I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with certain tropes. Do I think some of them could be updated? Yes, but not necessarily banned or forgotten about. I think if you eliminate the pervert aspects, etc. of certain tropes you can still write a great character and tell a great story that many people can relate to.

[@misswestt]

I agree! And its usually spoken with such a condescending tone!

[@taiyabazaheer9492]

I'm so early, The Take still has good content.

[@blueberries9850]

I think the problem is that there are real life ingenues out there but now they might be labeled as “dumb”, “prude” and “immature”. We can’t we just be ? We don’t want to be sexualized, or looked at as less. It’s sad

[@cianap.281]

I think it'll survive a little, simply because it's such a useful device for the audience to enter the world of the movie along with the naive ingenue, like Cady in Mean Girls or Drew Barrymore in Never Been Kissed. The same device exists for male characters but the audience doesn't seem to have the same hangups around sexualization and pigeon-hole-ing a young male character who is uninitiated to the world he's entering, such as Jimmy Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and many of his other movies, or Tom Hanks in things like The Man with One Red Shoe. I think the female Ingenue would serve this purpose more if more films were made so the audience identifies with the female character rather than stands apart and judges or desires her.

[@PeteeTheeBestt]

Please make a video on The Neon Demon and the tropes of “The Modeling of Beauty” ❤❤❤❤

[@andreathompson6660]

This really ignores and simplifies whole swaths of film history, from the multitudes of women who were working in the 1920s, the screwball comedies, a whole of Monroe's work, and beyond.

[@katherinealvarez9216]

I'm pretty sure anime series uses this archetype a lot

[@lbabzful]

Love your videos! But would be great if you added some correct CC for those who can't hear well. The YT ones are often incorrect or miss things ❤❤

[@aprilhuffstutler1419]

You seem to confuse ingenue with other tropes. Others were sex kitten, professional woman and mom. Ingenue characters still exist-" Ladybird", and "Kimmy Schmitt" for example. There will always be coming of age movies about young women. We buy the tickets.

[@juliannehannes11]

Scarlett O'hara is not and has never been a wide eyed ingenue, ingenue is a seductive act she plays for she's an entitled ruthless schemer. Have you seen Gone With the Wind? She spends the whole movie either trying to seduce or plotting to steal a married man and expecting to suceed, that's a far cry from ingenue, she' the Anti Ingenue Speaking of Anti Ingenues, JLaw is another Anti Ingenue, I can't recall her ever playing naive, not even as a child, she had always played world weary and ball busting, the two things an ingenue is never.

[@MarcosIsABaritone]

Nahhh. There will always be ingenue narratives and thank goodness for that. Remember, this prototypical protagonist is a proxy for the younger generations. They will always have to learn the lessons learned by the ingenues, as we did. If anything, we are seeing more diverse representations of the ingenue. Including gay, trans, POCs and even oft overlooked representations of varying regional and economic backgrounded ingenues.

[@sannh]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up Disney Princesses, Brittany Spears, and Miley Cyrus.

[@jeannesuzanne6425]

awesomely interesting this video! thanks❤❤

[@Bombadil-ez9ns]

I think the evolution of the cinematic ingenue over the last 60 years can be mapped out by the shifting portrayals of Miss Money Penny in the James Bond series.

[@Lilas.Duveteux]

I actually like ingenues as characters, and I like some rather old-fashioned ideals. Let girls be soft, virginal, innocent and sweet.

[@renatashp]

This is not cool! This is pedophilia!

[@britbbgum]

Loved this one, ty!

[@LisaF777]

Marylin Monroe always comes to mind

[@afterdinnercreations936]

The ingenue seems to just be a doll that men can sculpt and mold until the develop their own opinions and desires. Like, imagine "Weird Science" but the virtual-woman made-flesh becomes more aware of the world she lives in and her "untouched innocence" is expressed through her slowly becoming an activist; much to the chagrin of her creators.

[@witchplease9695]

I would like to see Black Ingenues.

[@Dom555-jv5bo]

Early Rihanna, Dorothy Dandridge, Betty Boop, Diana Ross

[@alg11297]

Audrey Hepburn made a career of playing the ingenue waif who got away with bad behavior because of her pretty priviledge.

[@jessicavictoriacarrillo7254]

Read "Where the Girls Are" to underrated why it's so important

[@tylerwatkins2923]

Discuss The Idol

[@we-need-to-talk-about-it]

Could you make a video about travel in films and maybe instagram travelporn ruining tourist spots?

[@schm00b0]

Deadloch show already shows that this trope is on a brink of death.

[@juliannehannes11]

As long as there are actresses under 25 there will always be ingenues

[@jerrysstories711]

Well thank you for at least teaching everyone to pronounce this word correctly.

[@fififijiflowerpotswater5379]

As long as people like Selena Gomez exists, this trope will always exist.

[@schadenfreudeegoism7485]

Jane the virgin is an ingenue?

[@artmonkey24]

I'm disappointed by this video. This is literally just another variation of the Persephone archetype. These types of characters have been around for a long time. Why? Not because of perverts but because of human nature. I identify with this archetype, and so do other commenters, it seems. This video just comes off as: "This is not the way to be as a woman." Which I thought modern-day feminism was supposed to empower all types of women, not just those who are what our culture deems as "strong and independent." I expected more from a channel who defended Cinderella years ago.

[@misswestt]

exactly

[@malvavisco10]

“Their youth and beauty is” - their youth and beauty ARE. Get a proofreader!!!!!

[@tabathastaples7884]

Shepherd's Chapel Network !!!!!!! Chapter by Chapter / Verse by Verse !!!!!!! Amen

[@NewYorkSkyBreakfast]

Please do mangenue next!

[@renatashp]

this does not exist

[@DA_8]

Christina Aguilera is a great example of breaking the ingenue box & getting punished and publicly labelled for it. She's such a pioneer, do a video about her! ❤👏🫶

[@lilil9752]

i did like the video, but BELLA as a good example?

[@JC-yy8iv]

No. That’s why they showed her on the sentence “The title started to be used for any young female star, regardless of her demeanor onscreen or in real life.” They’re specifically using her as an example of someone who was called an ingenue while not actually being one in any way

[@adolfopena7358]

Where does Rachel Zegler fall into this?

[@melodyclark1944]

The word should refer to a specific character like the damsel from a hundred years ago.

[@ladymary22]

Scalet O'Hara an ingenue! Please that girl didn't play second fiddle to any man.

[@Foxygirl558]

The Igenue girl is growing up. So there are less of them.

[@poulomiinanewcity3185]

my husband says I am child like and very much naive

[@susannehuber3996]

Most boring trope is one dimensional women.

[@Inquiringmind0]

We need this trope to comeback. The current bitch girl boss trope is insufferable.

[@Dom555-jv5bo]

Very demure 😂

[@jadziawynter9241]

First! 🥇☝🏾

[@cally2011]

Because...straight, white.... men

[@misswestt]

The announcers voice is so snarky and nasal !

[@coolida23511]

I miss the previous narrator.

[@luftwaffIe]

first

[@cluv513]

The ingenue's always look constipated!! See Gwyneth Kira Rooney lily rose

[@bennyt4903]

Mary Sue’s ain’t it

[@thebigdawgj]

Ah, back when females were respectable.

[@renatashp]

I think you are very misinformed!

[@keikofilms]

All just a sexual thing and it was disgusting

[@robchuk4136]

"Classical Hollywood was an industry run by men, for men."- This. This is how to stoke division. Explain "made movies for men" when in an era filled with comedies, and musicals, and romances, they clearly made movies for everyone. Why is this the only lense in which you view the world?

[@indiigo14]

Oh geez, I don't know man. Let see, um...oh! Here's something that's proper for you my friend. Classical Hollywood was an adjustment run by White men for white men, not for women, not for minorities, not for people with disabilities, not for people with different religions, not for LGBTQIA+ and not for poor people. Oh and let's not forget the mistreatment of actresses that were either harassed or SA by those men, the racism, the homophobia, the ableism. Oh but that was all going on behind the backgrounds.

[@EmpressJusticeTarot]

So annoying. Just choosing to be obtuse for no good reason.

[@MsDiMera2]

The people who controlled it ie Directors ,producers were all men and they were also the main beneficiaries of its profits.

[@morbidsearch]

"This is how to stoke division" Yep, discussing systemic bias is going to result in some hurt feelings. Deal with it.

[@voightkampffchamp]

"This is how to stoke division." Yeah, why can't we all just nod, look pretty, and quietly accept injustice like good... ingenues?!

[@eml3077]

"not porno tongue, church tongue"

[@SpeedOfThought1111]

that movie Leon the Professional is creepy pedo trash and I have no idea why anybody ever liked it. even the gary oldman character is way too over the top and stupid. but what did natalie portman expect playing that role? very disturbing no doubt but she put herself in that situation to begin with.

[@Tatiana_Palii]

Are you blaming a 12yo here for "making the wrong decision"? Seriously?

[@SpeedOfThought1111]

well saying more as an adult i'd be surprised if she still had that perspective but if it was just her mindset at the response directly after that makes more sense. Even still, it leaves one questioning the parents who allowed her to do it.