How to Tell She's Definitely NOT a Mary Sue

[@KittySnicker]

There’s an overwhelming consensus that 1998 Mulan is NOT a Mary Sue. And I agree. Since I was a little girl, she inspired me not to give up.

[@infidelheretic923]

The 2020 Mulan however…..

[@Nat-ls1uo]

@@infidelheretic923 The consensus is the Avatar the movie (based on ATLA), Death Note the movie and the 7th season of GOT don't exist. I think it's fitting that live action Mulan enters in this category.

[@infidelheretic923]

@@Nat-ls1uo Agreed. They are all THAT bad. However for the sake of this discussion their existence can’t be ignored. Film makers need to learn from these expensive mistakes and have better responses then blaming the fans.

[@mikaelafox6106]

@@Nat-ls1uo You mean the Netflix disaster and insult to Deathnote?

[@ipromisethatserendipityisa9656]

1998 Mulan - nope 2020 Mulan - yep

[@mitsiejc1077]

Can you do a take on cheating/adultery in media and how it’s often glorified as an act of passionate “love” or glossed over as a little “mistake” rather than the damaging act of betrayal it is?

[@tahsina.c]

@@Chris-rg6nm c'mon does this comment really work here ??

[@fabi1651]

@@Chris-rg6nm i think the actual question is who did you hurt?

[@mitsiejc1077]

@@Chris-rg6nm Huh? Nobody hurt me, I just don't like how the media glorifies/normalizes things like adultery. Maybe don't take trope requests so personally.

[@queridaidiotice]

Lembrei de Bee Movie

[@madelinemcmillan4020]

@@mitsiejc1077 I dont think they were glorying anything about cheating in this video, if thats the reason you even brought up the suggestion.

[@manhattankw]

i think my biggest issue with the so-called mary sues in marvel and star wars and other media with male-dominated fan bases is that these characters are marketed as feminist and groundbreaking for all women, and then it’s incredibly disappointing when these characters don’t speak to most women. it’s sexist to pick apart female characters more than their male counterparts, but it’s also sexist to write an unrealistic woman as the definitive woman when male characters are not written to be the definitive figure for men.

[@nicolegulino]

!!!!!

[@juliusalexandria4361]

Exactly. It come across as condescending.

[@dangerdash4393]

Another thing is that people often ignore the context behind why a character is so powerful (if they're even as powerful as they claim the character is). Harry Potter is a common target for being called a Gary Stu, even though most of his accomplishments are the result of what his friends help him with, and that he actually has flaws that have led to loss. Spoiler ahead, but had he listened and closed off his connection to Voldemort, Sirius would still be alive.

[@juliusalexandria4361]

@@Mercurystars4202 Yes. There's a sweet spot of time where female characters weren't sexist (beyond maybe overly sexy costumes) in like the late 80s early 90s, then the bs got turned up in the 2000s, and not that studios see money in "strong female characters" the ones we get are soulless and patronizing.

[@AllieOk]

Especially when they make the "definitive woman" basically a stereotyped man in a woman's body (ie praising her for traditionally masculine traits, like strength, and for her lack of traditionally feminine traits, like compassion)

[@trinaq]

Sex Education is incredibly written, especially when it comes to their female characters. They're allowed to be just as strong and developed as the male characters, as seen with Aimee in her sexual assault storyline, or Ruby, who softens when she begins dating Otis, only to get her heart broken by him.

[@AxxLAfriku]

HELP!!! Everybody at my school cyberbullies me because they say me good good GOOD videos are extremely BAD!!! Please help me, dear tri

[@theirishpotato6588]

@@AxxLAfriku what?

[@misstricksandtipps]

What I love about the Sex Ed female characters are also show their strength by embracing and overcoming their weaknesses. They are not perfect and they don’t have to pretend they are.

[@witchplease9695]

Unfortunately the only complexity is given to the white female characters, not the non-white ones.

[@theirishpotato6588]

@@witchplease9695 no

[@trinaq]

Maeve is into "Complex Female Characters", which is EXACTLY what she is. The show brilliantly makes all of their characters nuanced, and makes you find them realistic and relatable.

[@noyaisraeli]

omg EXACTLY, she's always been my fav and i was able to be inspired by her and relate to her character more than almost any show/movie character i've seen. and it's annoying because especially after this season people are starting to hate on her just because they prefer otis with ruby and it bothers me SO much, even if you're tired of the motis storyline, hating on her because of her relationships is standing against what this show and her are trying to incorporate, women should be standing by each other

[@theirishpotato6588]

True

[@theirishpotato6588]

@@katherinealvarez9216 I don't think anyone did.

[@theirishpotato6588]

@@katherinealvarez9216 perhaps

[@rashmisreekumar9714]

I think it's because not only does she like "complex female characters" but also wears fishnet stockings, doc martens, has the angry demeanor and the leather jackets and dark muted colours which is all amazing on it's own but a very token feminist character. And it would be nice to see "complex female characters" being the subject of interest of someone like Aimee or Ola or Lily because we want to see someone we look like or talk like or think like to have that layered personality.

[@anujviswanathan7515]

I dont think "likeable" should be an important trait to qualify as a nuanced character, I think the character works when their motives and actions are understandable and are in line within the context of the worldbuilding. Jessica Jones as a character is far from likeable, like she's a dick to almost everyone and isnt trying to be likeable. But you understand why she is like that, she feels realistic and her portrayal doesnt pull any punches, and I think thats why the character is well written and resonates well, despite having powers and is a very good P.I

[@luciasl5541]

She's still likeable though, she's not mean just because she woke up on the wrong foot. She's been through A LOT, so you understand why she acts the way she does and you don't really judge her for it, instead you root for her.

[@anujviswanathan7515]

@@luciasl5541 well she has traits that are typically considered interesting for her male counterparts, eg being rude, snarky, wisecracking, assertive, emotionally distant etc. Malcolm tho interested in joining Alias Investigations, quit because of how she treated him. We may like her coz her writing is that good, not the character herself. If we met anyone like her irl, we'd call her a jerk and whatnot.

[@ruby71406]

EXACTLY!

[@robbieaulia6462]

I mean yeah, you can make a very nuanced villain that is super hateable but their logic would still make sense.

[@jennyr1625]

Jessica Jones isn't particularly likeable but I still root for her because her flaws (like her alcoholism) and the motives behind her actions make her relatable and sympathetic.

[@MesserMoony293]

Lets not forgot the greatest Mary-Sue of all: Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way

[@beatrizgomes4094]

Thank you for this reference

[@keziarhodes4950]

Lay off Vampire, he’s mine 🖤

[@auliaeki3812]

Dumbledore had a headache

[@The-bi5ry]

Our one and only heroine with her fish net tights and black eyeliner

[@Melanie-jy2nw]

No one can beat her! She had Harry, Draco, Tom Riddle, and Hagrid drooling after her!

[@matariki9818]

My first non-Mary Sue character was actually the first female character I read : Hermione Granger. No, not impossibly gorgeous, powerful and likeable Emma Watson's version, but Hermione Granger from the books. She was whiny, bossy, and while being powerful and smart she was also flawed, judgemental and all, and not particularly pretty. Book Hermione was incredibly relatable as a know-it-all booksmart girl, and I'm glad I grew up with her.

[@MadYunie00]

Movie Hermione on the other hand is the ultimate Mary Sue. It's a bit ironic that they showed Harry Potter scenes (a character flawed, living a difficult childhood, way less skillfull than his girl friend) and they never talked about Hermione lol

[@moon.937]

This comment speaks facts

[@queenofgoldenhearts]

@@MadYunie00 i don’t see it like this since she’s freaking annoying, bossy, a know-it-all as well she doesn’t take criticism very well, she also has inner struggles about being lonely, being a muggle blood and also her love interests! she stills hermione!

[@matariki9818]

@@queenofgoldenhearts nooot really, at least not after the first three movies. They did the same thing with Tyrion Lannister in GoT, as in the made for screen version over compensated the fact that he's a dwarf and she's a girl by reducing their flaws - both mental and physical - and giving them incredible qualities - wits, beauty, humour and charming personnalities. Both Tyrion and Hermione are way more complex, multi-dimensionned, less pretty and yes, more unlikeable, than their screen version. That's what makes them such good characters.

[@sravyachanduri8864]

I agree as much as I love Emma Watson’s movie portrayal Hermione she gave off a lot of Mary Sue vibes. The book Hermione however, was wayyyy more relatable. Book Hermione was bullied,insecure,whiny and bossy which is exactly what makes her relatable and the opposite of a Mary Sue also when she did bad things or stupid things someone always yelled at her and called her out for it and was punished. Hermione was more realistic in the books which is exactly why the audience loves her its bc she has shown that young girls who aren’t even considered conventionally pretty or perfect can still become great heroines through brave and courage which is the whole message of her character. Movie Hermione seems to have alot more of the spotlight but I rlly also like the movie one she is sassy,witty and powerful which is what Hermione becomes by the end of the books.It’s called character development. This is why Hermione will always be a great character she carried the team on her back without seeming too perfect

[@laurenm7669]

Can we talk about how Sabrina in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina is absolutely a ridiculously flawless character? Because my godddd it got really exhausting and removed any tension from the plot (already knew how anything and everything would turn out), and that stinks because I really enjoyed how the show was done, the characters, and just the overall vibe. The win for any and every challenge was just handed to her, and it just made the show so much less interesting.

[@angel15amc]

I think that if the show had been renewed for more seasons, she might have developed more as a character and we would have seen her hubris come full circle.

[@sanethoughtspreader]

YES! I couldn't put my finger on why I hated the show so much.

[@katzenfraeulein]

That’s probably why I stopped watching it..

[@melis5761]

@@angel15amc I mean, the show has four seasons and she never changed so I don't think that it would have been so much different. I think it was even worse in season 3 and 4.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

If she's so flawless then why does she mess up all the time?

[@rowanjoy419]

Mary Sue is not about a female character without flaws, is about a character that is perfect in the majority of thing but when makes a mistake nobody around her call her out.

[@ManiaMac1613]

That's a subcategory of Mary Sue that Red from OSP labeled "The Jerk Sue". If your character makes mistakes but the other characters in-universe don't hold them accountable for it, they're definitely a Mary Sue.

[@brettpgh3312]

Thank you. I wish there were one gender neutral name for the trope. It's not about gender, it's about author wish fulfillment instead of character development and just bad writing in general.

[@FeralLogic]

@@brettpgh3312 Just because it's called Mary Sue does not mean it need to be applied to only women. I've never heard anyone say a character can't be a Mary Sue because it's a man. A name is just a name.

[@jayistrying4558]

Not to mention that people who stand up against the Mary Sue gets killed/murdered/or written off.

[@prathyusha016]

Elena from the vampire diaries.... Jesus fucking christ.

[@justclassicglam]

The most complex female character I've seen in modern representation is Rebecca Bunch from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. It was also an amazing representation of a woman with BPD who is taking control of her life, even if she slips up sometimes she's always doing her best.

[@arelipaz8328]

Sí, es cierto. Además, sus personajes secundarios también tienen arcos propios, ambiciones y frustraciones. Es una serie muy original.

[@dr.anaB777]

She did have every guy falling head over heels for her for no apparent reason though

[@indigoziona]

Omg yes! I've been watching through the series and I really love how the show presents all the characters in a nuanced light, and especially how Rebecca isn't just a hero, victim or villain, while having traits of all three and indeed songs to reflect all of these aspects :D

[@mercuriology45]

Maeve is such an Incredible character and probably the one with one of the saddest backstories in the show. It’s sad to see that because of ship wars, people started hating her.

[@theFloatArmy]

Same. I just wanted to scream and cry every time maeve tried to contact her mom and the mom shut her out. This poor girl has so much pressure on her. She's so strong.

[@mercuriology45]

@@theFloatArmy agree af and I love Ruby not downplaying her , but all of these ship wars have been making people downplay Maeve’s struggles . It’s so sad to see how everyone switched as soon as Maeve was getting in the way of a ship .

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

Yeah. Maeve is a wonderful character. And i really need to go finish that show.

[@ilincabogza]

I feel like this is a negative effect to the fact that for the last two seasons they really didn't bring much to why we should still see otis and maeve togheter. Sure, it's for the shock factor and for the cliffhanger, but it's starting to minimalize both the characters. Most of us shipped them for their chemistry in season 1, and then they messed it up in season 2, wich is fine. After that it was supposed to be developed and actually get the real reason they should be together. But we didn't get that. We didn't even get a friendship. We have no reason to actually want them together or even want them in the same scene to show off their good traits. I don't mean it like these two characters have to be together. But they have to be developed, and this plot took them backwards instead of elevating them.

[@mercuriology45]

@@ilincabogza @Ilinca Bogza nah i agree with you. They wanted to do the slowburn, thing between them so bad, and they havent been actual friends since season 1. Which at this point that they brought them together doesnt even matter because Emma is leaving. Anyways but my comment is about Maeve's character and how she is being hated lately because of the the ships not Maeve and Otis as a couple so.

[@inkypan5678]

It’s also worth noting a mary or gary sue also constitutes “a character from which the world revolves around or conspires to make miserable or succeed” not just a character without readily identifiable flaws

[@Sandra-rc5uc]

I also think that Mary Sues are more about the framing of the story than skill. There are some beloved, hyper-competent characters (Kim Possible, Sherlock Holmes, Neal Caffrey from White Collar). They are cool *because* they are so competent and we love watching them be cool. But they still face obstacles within the story and the world doesn't bend around them to accommodate them. That said, female characters are more quickly labelled as Mary Sues when they are that competent. I think Mary Sues are easier to spot in fanfiction. When you have these self-insert characters that completely break the rules of the existing universe. (E.g. a distrustful character automatically loves them without Mary doing anything).

[@shadowoftheday5736]

Exactly what I was thinking. If we consider only the lack of flaws of the character we could never find a Mary Sue because everyone would be experiencing a least one weakness (impulsiveness, lack of confidence)

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

@@Sandra-rc5uc well im not sure fanfiction is an entirely fair place to call out mary sues as a good chunk of fanfics are written by middle schoolers. Yeah they wanna be perfect and have their favorite character fall for them.

[@Sandra-rc5uc]

​@@saltydinonuggies1841 I love fanfiction and read and write it myself. Much of it is incredible and it deserves far more credit. And you are right: A lot of it is written by teenagers who want to see themselves in their favorite stories and improve their writing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Let them have fun and write self-inserts. It's great that they are being creative. I think they are still examples of the trope though especially because the trope originated in fanfic. When you read fanfic long enough you inevitably stumble upon them. You even learn to spot them from summaries. In those cases, I just scroll along and let the author have their fun. I think it would do the internet good in general to just leave things alone that aren't meant for them.

[@spokenme08]

@@Sandra-rc5uc I put a Mary Sue/Gary Stu and a non discript character that reader/watch can replace with themselves in to different categories. They overlap but the former is more about being perfect with little quirks while the latter has flaws that are their defining feature that are supposed to make them easy to insert yourself into. I have read characters that are based on the author or others that come across as more complex. In my fandoms you know certain broad tags usually have some element of the popular convention aka beware the Dark!(character name) tag...

[@chorusgirl97]

Since this video mentioned Jo March, I’d like to point out that NONE of the March sisters could be called Mary Sues. Amy is as hot-headed as Jo, as well as vain, but she grows up to be savvy, ambitious, and self-assured. Meg is seemingly the perfect woman by the standards of her time, being ladylike, kind, and responsible, but she also longs for material things, which puts a damper on her marriage at times. The one who comes closest to Mary Sue-dom is, admittedly, Beth, but even she has her quirks and eccentricities, which Greta Gerwig beautifully highlights in the 2019 film, and she even has a (literal) fatal flaw- her selflessness.

[@laurajanco2i]

Selflessness being a flaw in my opinion was never a flaw. It's just an excuse to give the character depth and likeability when they have none and to make people forget their behavior because they were "doing it for a good reason". Though it would be an actual flaw of it became naivety and made her do reckless stuff in the name of it.

[@Antiope1969]

She's a woman in tight pants, heels and makeup fighting off bad guys while still having perfect hair.

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

How about a man fighting multiple armed opponents without using any weapons himself, and never getting wounded even though he has his vision impeded by a MASK and is wearing a full length CAPE?????? Usually in the dark?????

[@madelinemcmillan4020]

@@DavidMacDowellBlue yup lol

[@petrairene]

Which is utterly idiotic and done for the male gaze. This is not female empowerment.

[@heartdragon2386]

@Jake from state farm you are rare then, because male protagonists are often dirty, covered in sweat and disheveled by the end of the fight. Doesn't seem to dim their popularity.

[@helenl3193]

@Jake from state farm the problem is that both genders are designed by heterosexual males, so the superhero ideals are what men want, not what we women value and want to be celebrated/appreciated for. As a result the men are all big, strong and muscular, and the women's ability to move/fight in their clothing, and the realistically needed muscle proportions come much further down the list of priorities than how much T&A they can get on display

[@theinformedvegan6758]

I think my issue with "Mary Sue" characters comes in cases like Twilight or even Gilmore Girls when girls are set up to attract all this male attention as a sort of wish fulfillment fantasy. First of all, the girls are not that compelling as people (and I don't think any one person is that compelling to have men of all different types fall in love with them all the time) so it doesn't make sense plot-wise, but it also reinforces the idea that womens' value and excitement in life comes from male validation. The fact that these girls are (even when they're written to be "girl next door") played by conventionally beautiful actresses also reinforces the idea that this value and excitement is only reserved for the very pretty.

[@devilinred3319]

Actually Rory FALLS for that spectrum in the revival, when turns out she is useless in real world and have a over the place sentimental life. But agree on Bella.

[@christopherbennett5858]

Honestly, it reminds me a lot of the same thing happening to both sexes in the case of anime. I mean, if you can imagine, you have Vampire Knight's Yuki Cross who is even more indecisive than Bella Swan even though one of the guys is her brother/ancestor and wants to destroy the world. For the male side, just look at every harem anime aside from School days and a few notable exceptions that prove the rule where the main guy is drawn as the most average of average high schoolers with deliberately no hobbies or strong personality traits but gets his harem. Weirdly enough, on the reverse harem side, the majority of female leads usually have agency, are compelling and likeable, as if, unlike their male counterparts, they can't get by on "average high schooler."

[@orchdork775]

@@christopherbennett5858 Huh, that is really interesting! I would love to see The Take make a video about that! Do you have any ideas about why anime has that tendency?

[@m00nwalker32]

@@christopherbennett5858 yes

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@orchdork775 Well, for the guys, the simple reality is that the main character is more of a vehicle for any straight teen boy reader to project onto. The only notable things about the character are the actions he performs in the story e.g. saving the girls to win their favour. There are notable exceptions, like Hayate the Combat Butler and The World God only knows but they're the exceptions that enforce the rule. With the girls, the cynical side is that, as a usually homogenous cast often has male as the default, anything that diverts from the default has to put in more effort. They usually have more backstory elements which are often things that definitely set her apart from their peers e.g. Haruhi Fujioka from Ouran and Seninuma from Kiss Him not me.

[@annarose932]

Would love to see you guys analyse Mabel Pines from Gravity Falls! Looking at a refreshing take on the girly girl character as very much interested in hyper femininity, but then also chaotic and goofy. Would also love to see you look at the hate a lot of the fans have of Mabel due to her choices and her selfishness. Would be so interesting to see! Please!!

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

she's kinda horrible to dipper a little bit

[@bethanyvarre9142]

Yes!

[@dannygillespie6614]

Oh I'm here for this.

[@Nat-ls1uo]

They already did the girly girl character take. It's really good. Also the Bimbo too.

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

@@tobiaslawrence8928 and dipper wasnt always great to her. Theyre 12. Kids are selfish.

[@nitsugazemag]

I remember that massive hate that surrounded her character. In the context of the narrative, Anna Gunn’s character on Breaking Bad was unlikeable because she was seen as an obstacle compounded on the central character’s story, but I did take a step back and thought about why she did the things she does, her character, though flawed, wasn’t as horrible as her male counter, Cranston. While he’s doing everything to endanger his family, she’s doing everything to keep her children safe. While she doesn’t do this perfectly, but why does a female character have to be? Nobody is perfect, especially in the context of Breaking Bad, no matter how clever either might believe they are. I think there’s a lack of empathy when male critics tear apart female led movies/tv shows or strong female characters, and that most are reactionary against to surplus of male character driven media we’ve consumed for many many years. I don’t know if it’s that they can’t fathom a realized or stronger character than a man epitomized by a female or they can’t relate because they are female, but this video essay is a great discussion to navigate past and future media for female led or just female characters in general.

[@daftbanna7202]

Someone has to protect the family from the person who protects this family

[@nitsugazemag]

@@daftbanna7202 while Walt thinks that his insatiable rise to power and greed will protect his family, that narrative, throughout the series, it begins to get chipped away. Something brilliant I felt with their final exchange in the series is that she knew he didn’t do what he did for the family, but taken off guard when he admits it and shared his true intentions, his arrogance in his pride. It’s funny how we perceive characters and judge them through tunneled vision in relation to either the main character’s wants and ambitions over others. It’s also funny that people don’t quite judge or look at Jesse, the proverbial “work wife” as harshly when he jeopardizes his operation.

[@daftbanna7202]

@@nitsugazemag I was just quoting the show man

[@nitsugazemag]

@@daftbanna7202 I know. No antagonism here.

[@daftbanna7202]

@@nitsugazemag ok my bad xx

[@elianamassey3676]

I feel like Anne from Anne of Green Gables is also a great example of an inspiring, yet human, female character.

[@thegreatmajora5089]

I feel like Mary Sue has become a word for just "a female character i didn't enjoy" which is wack

[@Cauldron6]

And you’re absolutely right!

[@skdjcmsbdjc]

love ur profile pic

[@roseJ96]

Soooooo true. People who hated the Loki series keep throwing that word at Sylvie while acting like Loki isn't when he has just as many "Sue" traits as her.

[@Error_-ct2vp]

Yes and no. Captain Marvel from the Comics “not the first one” has more development as a female character than the movie version.

[@Alex-mc5yn]

Or any kind of female character who is not solely a stay at home wife/mother. I saw people describe the commonly liked male characters as the opposite sex and without naming them, and then asking the audience whether or not it was a Mary Sue. The answer was invariably "yes".

[@juliaruss7682]

The character Beth Harmon from "The Queen's Gambit" would have been an amazing addition for analysis in this video.

[@missgranger9723]

Yes!!!!

[@Vallzard95]

yes!

[@ARcam789]

For or against being a Mary Sue? She's definitely not. She overcomes enormous struggles in that series. Addiction, loss, mental illness, etc. Her overpowered ability is Chess, she is both the protagonist AND the antagonist in some cases. She loses chess matches and has to recover from that devastation and learn from it and has to learn how to rely on those around her if she wants to really succeed.

[@bluexray7429]

@@ARcam789 Exactly she was an amazing character

[@ARcam789]

@@bluexray7429 I just wonder if OP was referring to her as a Mary Sue...

[@yothiga]

I agree about the male critic being especially harsh for female lead film. At this point I still don’t understand the hate on female lead superhero movie. It’s not like everything has to make for you. Can’t we just have them?

[@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075]

i'm a man, and i think girls deserve their own well-written characters too, i still hate how they had all the female characters fight together in infinity war and endgame, as if Black Widow, or Gamora, or Okoye can't fight a male villain without the assist of another female.

[@yothiga]

@@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075 Maybe it’s a pointless scene for you but I screamed when that scene happens. It’s just a 10 seconds scene. What’s so wrong with that?

[@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075]

@@yothiga oh i just thought it felt forced, i think the way they executed it just came across as Disney trying to see 'look, we're progressive right?" rather than actually trying to be. could just be my perspective, i know my sister didn't much care for it either, but i mean, i don't want to take away from anyone else'e enjoyment of it, so if you liked it i have no problem with that, we all just see things differently sometimes is all, right? :)

[@LunaticReason]

I think if a female non feminist critic can see the same points than I think there is validity. All male criticism isn’t always based on sexism, always calling it such is a cheap deflection.

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

@@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075 Correct. Disney just wanna look progressive and actually be progressive.

[@CatChaos369]

I feel like Katniss isn’t a Mary Sue I love her character.

[@jesuschild07able]

I was going to say that. Katniss doesn’t know always what to do, she breaks down without crying about everything, she cares about her friends but still can be mean at times. She was great!

[@cyberpunkfashionblyawesome]

@@jesuschild07able i mean your not wrong

[@Bleuryder]

I feel like Katniss tiptoes the line in the books, but stays firmly on the Not a Mary Sue side. But I feel like in the movies is the opposite. I don't know how to explain it, but it feels like in the movies she's trying super hard to not be a Mary Sue, but the script absolutely insists to make her one.

[@danielapardo9776]

Agree. I love Katniss but sometimes while reading her POVs she would get me annoyed lol. But I love her goals, and motivations and her learning through the story.

[@CatChaos369]

@@Bleuryder I think in the book we hear her struggles she wants to protect her family and kind of stumbled into becoming a rebel figure her goal was never to destroy her society but slowly came to realise that as long as it existed her family would always be in danger. But the film doesn’t or can’t really show how she’s feeling as clearly as the book it can hint at it but without a voice over which would ruin it it’s hard to see it as clearly. It does show her struggle but can’t go into as much detail as the books.

[@samfilmkid]

Maybe we could call them just “well written characters” instead?

[@Mapachonista]

No. Mary Sues do exists.

[@jaysonpascall3434]

Their not well written that’s the point

[@samfilmkid]

@@jaysonpascall3434 I was talking about "non-Mary Sue's"

[@BlackChapters]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075]

one would think, saying non-mary-sues is just making people think of mary-sues, but the video probably would get as many views if they did that

[@OpticalSorcerer]

I think Daphne Blake's evolution throughout the years is a good example of a intelligent, kind, and talented character and how to avoid being a flat, one dimensional character.

[@fellihoijer4395]

Daphne is a queen

[@vs6584]

Also the most evolved Scooby-Doo character, which is really interesting as she started with almost zilch in the 60's. The Take should make a video on Daphne's evolution.

[@fellihoijer4395]

@@vs6584 yes that would be so intresting. Since she deserves more recognition

[@OpticalSorcerer]

@@vs6584 I think the franchise is amazing, and Daphne really needs a segment, highlighting the pattern of only seeing strong feminine characters in kids' TV shows.

[@TheMagdalenaBB]

You can also have a character that you love to hate too. I am tired of the pressure to have female characters be likeable.

[@aenirrinea523]

Agreed! The thing is, when a female character is made unlikeable, audience will take it as an offensive portrayal of any particular group of women. Say I have a lady boss who is very much not nice to her employees and who we love to hate. Some people would probably consider it as an attack on women in power.

[@jaimicottrill2831]

Yes. Nobody cares if a male character is “likeable” !

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

@@aenirrinea523 i dont agree with that because theres lots of characters that are made to be hated and its not seen as an attack on women.

[@Visplight]

Book!Cersei FTW!

[@assafgoldlust140]

I do not remember I ever seen anyone claim that we can't have "love to hate" female characters. The thing is: at least most if not all of the characters accused of being Mary sure recently had never made to be that character. The writers unronicly expected to audience to like this characters.

[@hpvamp246]

The thing is Arya trained her entire life, while we didn’t see Rey train. Arya also needed help from time to time. She struggled when she was blind and definitely lost a lot during her training. She also made some foolish decisions from time to time.

[@robchuk4136]

Arya's not a Mary Sue at all, but I think people did have a problem with the believability of how easily the Night King was suddenly dispatched, and that led to muddying how people viewed Arya's character. And she had been super popular up to that point. There's no one to blame but D&D for this.

[@baaltohrthewarlock3336]

Arya's whole character journey was not one of a Mary Sue. Sadly she had one Mary Sue moment and it was one of the biggest moment in the show. I personally think this goes to show that you can have a Mary Sue character and you can have a Mary Sue moment as well.

[@jesusweeps420x]

Look Arya was just a rogue with really high stealth, it happens in like every video game ever and we never question it

[@Suisai13]

Exactly this. Arya was developed as a character over several seasons. Rey was using the force to manipulate people's minds, swordfighting (using a lightsaber for the first time) and headshotting Storm Troopers (first time using a blaster) within a couple of hours. In Luke Skywalker's first film, he only used the force to help aim a torpedo down a hole... and that was pretty much it.

[@mercuriology45]

The first seasons she was great, later I didn’t enjoy much her character. I still prefer book Arya.

[@RosieSquall]

The best characters are those that are fleshed out and feel authentic. Characters that have everything resolved, that are liked by everyone (even their enemies), that don't grow and change, because they don't have obstacles, are boring regardless of gender. Writers need to realize that while a protagonist going through a power trip is fine from time to time, readers and audiences are drawn to those characters we can see ourselves reflected, flaws and all.

[@xxJing]

The problem is that there is definitely an audience for that ego trip power trip type of writing so it won't go away. I hate it too but there are a lot of people that genuinely like it.

[@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075]

indeed, we like characters who remind us of ourselves, or of who we aspire to be, and that means having flaws, cause nobody's perfect

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

I domt even hate characters that go on a power trip if its done right. The problem is that its not usually done right. If they become egotistical and crazed in order to gain this power, boom a flaw. If they are then humbled by the fact that its hurting their loved ones, that changes the dynamic and can make it better.

[@RosieSquall]

@@saltydinonuggies1841 this! I want to see their power trip have consequences that make their struggles not only physical and psychological but emotional too.

[@RosieSquall]

@@xxJing I didn’t say I hate it. It’s fun from time to time. Do you think Conan the Barbarian has a deep, rich personality? No, but the music, the atmosphere, the action and the super quotable dialogue makes it an awesome experience. There is room for both. I just wished the one-dimensional characters with no plot arc was the exception and not the rule when it comes to making movies.

[@sparo_art]

It's very weird to me how MarySue as became a "difficult type to understand" because, as someone who grue up in the world of fanfiction, MarySue as a very very clear definition. She is liked almost by everyone even though you dont really understand why, the love interest is always infatuated by her and especially, her "flaws" aren't really flaws, they are qualities disguised as flaws. She is a great mix between the manic pixie dream girl and a not like other girls.

[@reginafeher8130]

exactly!

[@alanadoueihi1438]

I’ve seen a lot of criticisms of Never Have I ever with Devi and I’m tired of it. Whether you like her or not, Devi is an incredibly well done example of how to write a female character who is layered and complex. The conflict often revolves around her and she isn't just dragged from plot point to plot point. She is active in the choices she makes and then she has to face the consequences that come from those choices. She is allowed to be messy and while she is often not a good person, she's a good character and I appreciate how the show decided to go with a more nuanced take instead of just writing a smart, studious role model for young girls who is a beacon of perfection (Looking at you film hermione granger) She’s book smart while simultaneously making impulsive, stupid choices which is a lot more fun to watch.

[@clarisa30]

Every time i hear Saorise Ronan say the line of "women.." i get on tears. I loved the women en sex ed! Specially Aimee

[@spiritsofelderflower]

Fleabag is amazing. One of my favorites. 😍

[@iknowexactlywhoyouare8701]

1994 version of little women is waaay better

[@fiorev6274]

I love that scene! Saoirse was amazing

[@rocktheroadtowembley]

OMG you're so right about Fleabag!

[@jessicajayes8326]

Short version: A Mary Sue is an overpowered character without context or even real character. Examples can include Wesley Crusher from Star Trek and the male lead in Sword Art Online. Better versions of these characters include Chekov and Guts from Berserk. Yes they are overaccomplished characters but they also have context. Wesley was grandfathered onto the Enterprise when Chekov earned his way on. Sword Art Online features a bland gamer character who does everything perfectly while Guts is a guy who has been through hell and survived. Context!

[@Nat-ls1uo]

Fucking hated Kirito, that shit he pulled at the end of the first game was total BS

[@carta360]

Kirito does get the same criticism though. I'd argue that he is more hated than Asuna

[@AdviceFromAHipoCrite]

THANK YOU

[@Bleuryder]

Good lord I hated Kirito. I gave SAO a chance and the only thing he succeeded at was being so annoying he made me hate the entire series. I don't know if they ever got rid of him (like .Hack which would occasionally change protagonists.), but the fact that he MAY be in an episode just kills the entire series for me.

[@carta360]

@@Bleuryder I tapped out after he started getting his harem 😅... I think he's still the main protag of the series though

[@scordeteyla]

I think that the reason why some female characters are so perfect at everything (especially in fanfictions) also comes from a desire for women to emulate the expectations society puts on them.

[@theeeveelutionfanbaseceo4740]

Well now that someone points that out, I can clearly see it-

[@dz4265]

It comes from late stage leftism woke feminsts thinking women cant be flawed.

[@Grantonioful]

"the entire city looks like ratatouille" I just can't with this show.

[@Brainflayer]

Here are two key traits needed in a character to push them above being a Mary/Gary Sue: - An actual personality. - More than one flaw.

[@laurajanco2i]

And making the flaw a real one that copromises her development, instead of being just for show.

[@emmanash6699]

I've listened to my brother talk about two female characters he hates. I'm pretty sure that if those characters had just presented as male, he would have loved them.

[@nicolas._.2294]

Yes true, see so many hates against caracters that aren't Mary Sue but they are called that

[@07Flash11MRC]

A lot of it comes down to both outright and lowkey misogyny. Notice how none of this is even an issue when the character is male?

[@jeremiahnoar7504]

Instead of making that assumption, why not just ask your brother if that's the case? His answer might suprise you.

[@Kenta455]

I think the reason there are way more accusations of "mary su" than "gary stu" is also because for better or worse it seems like EVERY prominent female character who exists is scrutinized over what she represents about "women as a whole", in a way that male characters usually are not scrutinized, and it seems true from both conservative and liberal audiences. (and seems like you can say similar about minority characters) A male character can be just a character, for the most part, but every female character seems to be looked at as if they represent what the writers think about all women in general, and I think that contributes to the sexism and intimidation that some audience members demonstrate towards characters often described as "mary sues". If the writers created this "perfect, flawless" female hero who effortlessly saves the day and "shows up" all the other characters, it "must be" (sarcasm) because the writers secretly think women are better than men, thus "mary su" characters end up being labelled as "sexist towards men" just by virtue of existing and being "too perfect". Don't really see that kind of scrutiny towards male heroes and protags, even when they may be just as "flawless" as the female characters, because no one, for the most part, looks at your typical male hero and assumes "this hero represents what the writers think about all men, and men compared to women". Male characters can just "be", but every prominent female character is a political statement.

[@janhavi1977]

I think there definitely are poorly written female characters that are completely deserving of the title Mary Sue (Rey from Star Wars for example, or Lila from A Darker Shade of Magic). But at the same time I agree with you that female characters are judged far more harshly than male characters sometimes. I can think of a couple of male characters that could be described as Gary Stues but don't receive the same scrutiny or criticism. Percy Jackson for example has very few flaws, and if there are flaws they don't really affect him negatively. He's also very overpowered and can definitely be considered a Gary Stu. But far from receiving any criticism he's actually beloved and one of the most popular characters, despite not being all that deep, complex, or flawed. Authors seem to have to put more effort into creating female characters for fear of criticism, than they have to put into male characters, for sure.

[@Cauldron6]

Too true. Women in media and in society in general are not allowed to just exist, they have to represent many things and be perfect role models. It’s SO boring and is a real barrier to significant and meaningful representation.

[@gabrielleporter553]

Agree, more often then not women in media are meant to represent what a woman should be, or if she’s an unlikeable character then she must represent all the negative qualities about women. Like, i don’t find Amy Shumar funny but i always see comments that say “ proof women aren’t funny “ or about why women shouldn’t be comedians… in movies people will point to characters like Rey in star wars and talk about how boring she, and that she shouldn’t be protagonist because she’s boring and that she was just there to “ push feminist narratives” which inherently a jab at feminism. Women characters have to fit a narrative or stereotype because they get so harshly judged, and this criticism often will start to become criticisms of women ( not EVERY time, there are criticisms that aren’t sexist). Even if they are “ mary sues” or weak characters people are WAY to harsh about fictional characters imo

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

Yep and i feel that could be fixed by having more women (or other minorities) producing all forms of media and continuing to call people on their bullshit. The point of this video was literally to say "lets stop discuss mary sues and focus on the characters that are actually good" but a good chunk of these comments are debating who is and is not a mary sue.

[@ggalloway1]

Mary Sue applies to a type of character regardless of gender, and has for decades. The term does not require a gender identity.

[@archer1949]

I just dislike the “Chosen One” trope in general when played straight. Male, Female, doesn’t matter. Unless you want to subvert it, there are enough of them. The ironic thing is that Rian Johnson went out of his way to retcon and fill out Rey’s character, but the fanboy Neckbeard backlash caused Disney to panic and go back to JJ Abrams’ “Strong Female character” pandering and nostalgia porn. Kudos to the Veronica Mars shout out. She was awesome.

[@christopherbennett5858]

Yeah, whilst Rian Johnson's word of the day was "gotcha!" and beats you over the head with the theme of failure so much I swear he wanted Last Jedi to be studied in High School literature classes, he at least had Rey realise that Kylo Ren was a tool who wasn't worth it.

[@rhythmicmusicswap4173]

and that's why I love how i lord of the ring the chosen one was played. it wasn't a progecy ,it was a choice

[@christopherbennett5858]

@@rhythmicmusicswap4173 Plus, it was a choice made after Frodo literally got stabbed and chased around by the riders. Frankly, after what he'd been through, no one would have blamed the hobbit for backing out. However, he chose to risk his life in spite of that. Mad respect.

[@crapreact5989]

I still don't get why doesn't that same aply to men i mean just look at James bond the ultimate Gary stu

[@baaltohrthewarlock3336]

It does back then. It just doesnt anymore because the recent James Bonds are quite flawed.

[@crapreact5989]

@@baaltohrthewarlock3336 didn't he fall form a moving spending trian over a mountain after he got shot and survived

[@vetarlittorf1807]

Except Bond has always been a very flawed character.

[@ThePrinceofHisOwnKingdom]

@@crapreact5989 That's not neccesarily a Sue trait.

[@Author.Noelle.Alexandria]

I never saw Bond as not flawed. He’s a cocky womanizer.

[@guadalupeanguiano7667]

Korra was called a Mary Sue but it's astounding to me that she isn't liked more because she goes from a cocky immature and hot headed hero to a peace keeping, wise and incredibly strong and realized avatar. Sure she was annoying but she was a 16 year old teenage girl who was guarded her whole life and told what to do her whole life. Of course she was going to rebel. Korra also lost many times she had help she lost her connection to the past avatars but she also managed to do what Aang couldn't she brought the air benders back. She risked her life to save kuvira.

[@georgeprchal3924]

She also does train since childhood to be the Avatar, so I expect and understand her perceived arrogance and high self esteem. I also liked that she was the polar opposite of Aang I regards to temperament. She also gets her ass kicked a lot and has to deal with some real shit along the way. My only real criticism of her was the finale where she failed to learn from Aang's past mistakes and let the bad guy live.

[@SuperSpectrom]

Korra is an amazing character and the complete opposite of a mary sue. She loses alot and is helped by her friends and family. Aang is probably more of a gary stu than she is but its not necessarily bad either. Aang is supposed to be the shining beacon of hope in a wartorn world while Korra is the flickering flame of hope in a world than is moving past her. They both have their needs :)

[@steamboatwill3.367]

@@georgeprchal3924 ) that's not a "past misstake"

[@georgeprchal3924]

@@steamboatwill3.367 Aang not killing Yakome led to immense strife for Korra, and Ozai made Zuko's rule unsafe by his mere presence.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

@@georgeprchal3924 ) there's no argument about that.

[@nicolecurrie2896]

I’m sorry, but this is a term that has just lost all meaning. It started as a fanfiction term for a self insert character who warps the world she’s in until it’s now longer about anything in that world (and I’m not throwing shade- I also did that, once upon a time. Go forth and write your Mary Sues young fanfic writers- it’s a rite of passage for you all. Have fun). Now it’s just a term to throw at any female character that someone either doesn’t like, has writing problems attached to them, or seems to be overpowered (rightly or wrongly). Can we just start calling it poor writing and retire this term already?

[@mystic0screams]

Thaaats what I'm saying. I was confused watching this cuz to me, Mary Sue is when the writer puts themselves in the story. I didn't know it took on some new anti-feminist meaning

[@nicolecurrie2896]

@@mystic0screams Oh, I did. The throwing it under every female character under the sun really seemed to take off when Twilight came out and all that backlash started. That’s when the term hit mass media pop culture, at which point it lost all true meaning and here we are. While not always unwarranted , a section of the internet (especially some on the geeky side) has taken to calling every female character who is even half competent and/or not just a sexy lamp that pops up in their fandom media a Mary Sue.

[@madeleineflamiano7717]

Hi, Nicole! Do you mind if I cite you for these amazing insights? I was just pitching an idea to Incluvie (a platform focused on diversity in cinema) last week (9/23) about unpacking the Mary Sue archetype and I think you add so much nuance to the conversation. I actually brought it up casually as someone whose entry into writing was through roleplaying! My intent is to explore relatable protagonists. The comments you and others have made about the internalized misogyny when stigmatizing Mary Sues are compelling. I'll be sure to properly acknowledge who else has pointed to this phenomenon!

[@nicolecurrie2896]

@@madeleineflamiano7717 Go for it! Good luck with your pitch!

[@mjd268]

I don’t think the term has changed that much too be honest. Mary Sue was perfect, poorly written, and overpowered. The characters who’ve been called Mary Sues the most prominently (Captain Marvel, Rey) fit this description to me. I should state though I haven’t heard anyone worth their salt calling Arya a Mary Sue (although her storyline in the final season was not well handled so I can understand why people would confuse her for one).

[@wowitsbek]

yall should do a video on the "dramatic haircut trope" next!!

[@trinaq]

Oh, yes, please! It used to be a novel idea, but now it's a hokey cliché. In real life, a woman can overcome trauma without resorting to cutting her own hair in a dramatic fashion.

[@jesusweeps420x]

Leave Britney alone!!!! Leave her alooooooooone!! 😭

[@accioenchiladas]

in my hp fic my oc cuts her hair, yet it's not to overcome any trauma... she does it because her hair was hella long and she couldn't bother with it when they were in the middle of a war lol

[@ariyatabassumabdullah1143]

@Ada Nb "I look like a PENCIL"

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

I understand why people dislike this cliche but i dont inherently have any problem with with. Ive even cut my hair to handle certain kinds of trauma. Hair has been linked to different kinds of spirituality all throughout history. Its weirdly important. And its an easy way to take control of uncontrollable situations.

[@bilbosmile1175]

I think one of the most important aspects to being a strong female character whilst avoiding the label of Mary Sue is if their strenght comes from making other (male) characters look ridiculous. If a team of men cannot solve an issue only for a random girl to come along and solve it within 10 minutes while also doing something else I'm not gonna care about them, just be annoyed by them

[@ShawnRavenfire]

I tend to judge the characters within the context of the overall intelligence of the show or movie. A movie like "Commando" isn't trying to be anything but a dumb action movie, so Arnold being invisible just makes sense. A movie like "The Matrix," on the other hand, presents itself as a "smart" action movie, which makes the one-dimensional-ness of Neo (as well as the million plot holes) stand out more. I think Mary Sues (and I use the term genderlessly) are more tolerable the less seriously the movie takes itself.

[@GalaFerrari]

Maybe this is a binary concept that should change, but we have Gary Stu for the boys.

[@xensonar9652]

The Matrix is incredible.

[@randeknight]

To me, a lot of the problems are a lack of a training montage or backstory to explain the amazing skills. So Luke Skywalker at least spends some time training with two Jedi masters before even getting slightly good. Battle Angel Alita has a history of being a soldier. Wonder Woman has had a bunch of combat training. Neo gets the skills implanted into his brain, and has a training montage as well. On the other side, Ethan Hunt can stunt fly a helicopter in 3 mins. Rey can force persuade a guard after having only knowing the existence of the power for a few minutes. Captain Marvel can use all of her powers immediately after spending decades learning NOT to use them.

[@lavenderbee423]

Yes! This is actually why I enjoy Bella from Twilight--Twilight was never meant to be high brow literature or complex. It's a simple self insert love story, and her character fits within that context.

[@davidcheater4239]

"Mary Sue" started off in fan-fiction as female protagonist who is an idealized author inset. Mary Sue has become "a female protagonist". Much like "Karen" started as a critique of racist white women and is now used as a critique of women. Taking away the specificity removes the validity of the term.

[@dangerdash4393]

I don't think Karen really fits in here. It's wasn't just racist white women, but entitled women in general, and unlike with Mary Sue, there are plenty of examples and encounters for it.

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

THANK YOU! Someone called me a "Karen" a month ago, and I'm a black queer gender-fluid individual.

[@Janperday]

@@dangerdash4393 so why are we picking apart 'entitled women' but not entitled men? miss me with that bs

[@dangerdash4393]

@@Janperday We do. They're called "Kevins".

[@Janperday]

@@dangerdash4393 I've literally never heard of that

[@sarahr6301]

Hot take: Rory Gilmore was originally written as a Mary Sue but as the show progressed and they actually showed her flaws, it made her a better character.

[@ellieragsdale4398]

I like that take! It's always bugged me how much hate Rory gets and I think this might be why-- everyone expected her to be flawless, so the flaws she does have are made out to be much bigger than they are. Of course, one could argue that these flaws were badly written, which I think might account for the extra hate. Or maybe her Mary Sue writing made it much harder to relate to her, and thus harder to sympathize with her. Wow, it's a relief to write this out.

[@sabinamcdaniel7412]

@@ellieragsdale4398 Personally I have a love-hate relationship with that show. There's a lot of great humor and fleshed-out relationships and realistic characters, and then, well . . . . I don't think Rory is a Mary Sue at all, but there are a lot of flaws that simply don't get called out as such, and I think that's why people don't like the character. I recently read a really well-written article on the subject called "Rory Is The Villain Of ‘Gilmore Girls’ And Lorelai's Bad Parenting Is To Blame." It honestly puts it better than I ever could.

[@LoneGamerNerd]

I know your comment is a year old, but I just wanted to give my two cents: I love Gilmore Girls, especially the first two Seasons. It was funny, witty, and I loved all of the characters and their dynamics. Unfortunately, Season 3 is where the show starts to become increasingly frustrating, and mostly because of Rory. I completely understand it's partially because everyone including her own mother never really reprimands her for her mistakes; the whole town dotes on her and it probably puts an insane amount of pressure on her to live up to what they see her as. As a result, she never learns to accept responsibility for her choices and actions. But, at the same time, she is fully capable of learning from her mistakes and just chooses to turn a blind eye to them. When everyone around her gets in trouble, and sometimes as a result of something she said or did, she does nothing to defend them or step in and say it was her fault; she lets it happen and has them deal with the consequences. I definitely agree that Lorelai, despite trying to be a good mother on her own, made the huge error of becoming more of a friend to her daughter than a mother and let Rory get away with far too much. The show is all kinds of messed up when you think about it -- and honestly, a big part of it is that Rory's behavior, especially jumping from guy to guy, hits far too close to home with me; I personally know someone like that and it's extremely frustrating and difficult to watch someone you love self-destruct like that.

[@l.n.3372]

I disagree. I think the opposite. I loved season 1-3. The show lost me when Rory slept with married Dean and then began dating Logan.

[@sherylsmallwood-valdivia5375]

Jules from Euphoria is a great-example of a non-Mary Sue. She is the apple of multiple characters eyes, but is a complex character that evolves!

[@michellereis8614]

Indeed

[@poutsamouni5483]

Mary sues can be male characters aswell Edit:i have provoked a gang war

[@victoriaescobedo5458]

And they're called gary stus

[@trinaq]

Yep, Gary Stu is the male counterpart, though I haven't really come across improbably perfect male characters.

[@victoriaescobedo5458]

@@trinaq ever watch SAO?

[@NealFowler]

Except when was the last time people made a culture war issue out of it? For example, tony stark is impossibly good at everything he does but nobody has an issue with it. Same with dr strange.

[@NealFowler]

@@trinaq Kirito and Tony stark fit the mold

[@ephemeralmiracles]

I loved this video, clicked so fast seeing Sylvie, Maeve and all the other great characters in the thumbnail and I'm glad I did. You articulated this so well and I'm immensely grateful to see you analyze some of my favorite characters, as well as what makes a well written character and mention a lot of my influences (like Lindsay Ellis and movies by great female filmmakers). It's not and won't be men complaining about Mary Sues that push filmmaking to go further. It's clear that what needs to be done is give opportunities to more women to make films and series and be critics and write these amazing characters that they do. I am eternally grateful to the women that helped brought my favorite characters to life and the women, that although are minorities now in these fields, I can look up to and feel represented and be hopeful about the future. That includes you making this video. Thank you.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

I may be wrong but I feel like the modern version of Nancy Drew is imperfect as is human.

[@llamacran]

You're 100% correct. The CW's Nancy Drew has a real problem with honesty, with admitting when she needs help, with forgiving people, with her temper... she's a layered, well-written character.

[@PokhrajRoy.]

@@llamacran Yeah, I was referring to the novels but glad to CW is doing a great job.

[@roy.shrestha]

@@llamacran So true. CW Nancy Drew is quite an underrated show and Nancy is a well-written character

[@heywhat6676]

Yep, this is going to be a spicy one. I could tell as soon as I read the title. Prepare yourselves for war. It is coming soon

[@professorbaxtercarelessdre1075]

lol sadly true, people are so passionate about their opinions

[@alexvillarreal8546]

I remember having a discussion with my friends in high-school and we joked that the male version of a Mary Sue was a Micheal Cera. During the height of his fame it seemed that he was playing the part (specifically Scott Pilgrim). We decide that a Mary Sue had a flat character arch, was liked by many of the characters for no obvious season, and was more powerful/talented than any other character without doing any work for it. I also argued that Mary sues were in portant for audience inserts or chosen one character types. Harry Potter being a good (male) example of both.

[@nicokrasnow1851]

Harry Potter is more of a mixture between the Chosen One and the Everyman. He isn't liked by all the "good" for no reason, he doesn't excel at everything and he has flaws (that were pointed by other characters and caused huge issues).

[@belphegorcampbellspn5285]

@@nicokrasnow1851 Exactly

[@Cab1726]

Harry Potter is not remotely a Mary Sue. All his strengths are believably filled out by the expected weaknesses a person with that trait would have. For example, a strong sense of justice is accompanied by anger issues and a nearly pathological inability to work within flawed systems, even in the short term as part of a long game. And you can draw a straight line from his skills and talents to the childhood trauma and coping mechanisms that honed them. Like his quickness and cunning, which were self-preservation traits. And with his ability to coast on adrenaline to get him through “any” situation, he never developed study skills, struggled with moderation and delayed gratification, never thought to ask for help, and made impulsive and costly decisions (Sirius dies this way). He not only screws up a lot but often in pointedly careless and embarrassing ways. He does unlikeable things out of insecurity and fear of abandonment. His Savior complex is also a fear of abandonment because he’s been led to believe he must continually earn love and be special to STAY loved and accepted. He also lashes out to test the limits of people’s love when he is feeling scared (like when he smashes up Dumbledore’s office). He regularly pushes Hermione to her near breaking point with his weaponized incompetence and nastiness, probably in large part because he feels safer with her than anyone else and acts out to feel her love and attention. And the series is largely a meta commentary on the Chosen One trope. Take book 4 - he experiences the forces of the universe always working out a certain way for him for reasons he can’t explain or defend and that he personally feels are unearned. Meanwhile, everyone around him either insists that he deserves praise for this situation that’s out of his control or are angry at him for claiming stolen valor. But what is actually happening is that another person is completely manipulating his entire reality in some sort of combination Truman Show and Slumdog Millionaire setup. A physical character is actually literally laying out plot armor before him and orchestrating one deus ex machina after the other as Harry keeps screwing things up. Similar things happen dozens of times throughout the series, with Dobby, Dumbledore, Riddle’s diary, the Order, the Ministry, Crookshanks, Snape, Aberforth, etc. His “specialness” in a Chosen One sense is being put on him by other people’s actions and not inherent in him at all. They are all the ones choosing him, because it seems TO THEM like that is what the “plot” has called for. They are perpetuating this self-fulfilling cycle that started with Voldemort deciding to kill him because he MIGHT be this prophesied baby with the power to destroy him. Harry didn’t have any power except the power that Voldemort gave him by fearing him. He was just a man like Voldemort was just a man, and everyone else imbued them with power out of fear. They gave Voldemort the power to destroy them and Harry the power to save them. But it could have and would have been anyone, and the situation of being chosen is what shaped Harry’s “chosen” traits - not the other way around. If Neville had been the Chosen One, his traits would have been different but still honed by his life experiences to create whatever the Neville version of a Chosen One would be.

[@Crimson28]

Ellen Ripley, Sarah Connor, and Buffy Summers are my favorite characters and are Non-Mary Sue. All three have horrible situations dropped in their lap. They have their breakdowns and struggles but cowgirl the fuck up and take care of business.

[@henrychinaski]

This channel is on fire. Making A LOT of quality content and FAST. Bravo

[@AveryTalksAboutStuff]

I've seen a lot of hate towards Sylvie but I love and relate to her more than most female characters. 💛

[@trinaq]

Me too, I actually found Sylvie relatable, even if she's not the definitive example.

[@AveryTalksAboutStuff]

@@trinaq totally agree! I knew I liked her when she stopped to put her hair up before battle. 😂

[@AveryTalksAboutStuff]

@@katherinealvarez9216 lol, right? I'd die for that fictional woman 😂

[@passiveagressive4983]

She’s badass

[@Cauldron6]

Came here to make this exact comment! I think Sylvie is a great character, really compelling and relatable. She really doesn’t deserve the ire of the fandom.

[@WhaleManMan]

In my mind, a Mary Sue has to fulfill 3 requirements ✔ Succeeds at everything ✔Liked by everyone who is good. ✔Gets almost all of the narrative attention. A lot less female characters fit this descriptions than it seems. Rey succeeds at everything and is likes by everyone good, but isnt always the center of focus.

[@jakie4444]

you forgot their actions have little to no consequence when / if things go south

[@ladyriethegoldendelmo5441]

even with that said... ahsoka isnt like that at all and same with sabine and many times I had people think they are mary sues... so that word lost a lot of meaning

[@l.n.3372]

​@jakie4444 this is important. The lack of flaws can make a Mary Sue but it's also the lack of consequences when they screw up. Because if they're never called out for flaws, it adds to the feel that everyone thinks they're perfect

[@xxJing]

The Mary Sue archetype isn’t exclusive to female characters, it’s just that the male variant isn’t often seen in western media. You can find male Mary Sue’s rampant in anime though and people hate them just as much. Protagonists need some type of flaw, some room for growth for a story to be truly enriching. Having someone who easily solves all the problems in the story doesn’t often lead to engaging content. It’s just wish fulfillment without any nutritional value.

[@robchuk4136]

Good point about Anime.

[@baaltohrthewarlock3336]

Anime does a lot of pandering to the shounen audience and this does create for a character trope that definitely fits the definition of a male Mary Sue. Kirito is, atleast from what I remembered seeing, as hated as he was loved, maybe even more! There is definitely a smaller amount of Gary Stu's in western media (Thankfully).

[@dalgona4819]

I often see them in anime (particularly in some mangas under the isekai genre or the harem genre). There are *very* few mary sue/gary stu protagonists that are actually likable tbh, and (based on my observation only) usually it has to do with the following: 1. They have a decent backstory that balances the "OP" character 2. While seemingly perfect and almighty, they have endearing/likable personality overall 3. The entire story itself doesn't take itself seriously, hence there is less pointing out of the complexity of the characters

[@jon66097]

So SOA isn't popular? I dont buy that people hate Gary Sues in anime because these characters are the same ones that tend to get very popular.

[@madelinemcmillan4020]

"You can find male Mary Sue’s rampant in anime though and people hate them just as much. " a LOT of male leads from isekais fall into this category. they always seems flawlessly perfect and every new character exists to prop the mc up more. yet kirito is one of the very few rare examples I've seen called where he's universally agreed on being a mary sue. Still. people tolerate it more in male characters then female and dont see anything inherently wrong with the male lead being perfect. it doesnt effect the popularity, SAO is still making money.

[@CaveFreediving]

Wrong, it doesn’t take a woman to write or review a female character. It takes a good writer and critic. You can understand something you are not, that is the fundamental truth of writing, acting, directing and just life in general. The bias here comes from Hollywood pushing only certain types of characters. Ultimately, men and women are different by nature and therefore need to be written differently for it to be believable.

[@yz4043]

The only truly flawed and unlikable female character I can think of at the top of my head is Carrie Bradshaw

[@georgeprchal3924]

Catelyn Stark. I really hate her, but in fairness to her I don't skip her chapters like I do with bran.

[@nicokrasnow1851]

@@georgeprchal3924 you're so right. Catelyn is unlikeable as fuck both in the books and the series, but is nuanced

[@taliabarreto3628]

The problem with Rey is she's boring. Like everything else in the sequels, Rey was a victim of poor planning and terrible writing, but because so much revolves around her, she got most of the hate. I still believe that they had a perfect protagonist in Finn, but that potential was quickly wasted.

[@meganjeffrey6207]

And they ultimately made her story about her connections with various men, especially when they made her responsible for "saving" Kylo Ren and ultimately credited her power to a powerful bloodline. Yawn indeed.

[@xensonar9652]

I think there would be even more hate if the main character was not a Jedi. I don't think most of the fans really know what they want, only what they don't want.

[@davefreier7738]

I almost think Rey's problem is that she was shoehorned into the role of a Disney princess.

[@taliabarreto3628]

@@meganjeffrey6207 Tell me about it. Two things I liked in TLJ was that Rey was a nobody (meaning you don't have to be a Skywalker, or Kenobi, or whatever, to be insanely powerful, which fits the themes of that movie) and that it ended with Rey and Kylo choosing their sides, choosing to fight for what they believed. But the audience screeched, so let's copy the central idea of ROTJ and make the good guy redeem the bad guy. And make her a Palpatine, while we're at it. I wouldn't be so mad if it wasn't so obvious they had no idea what they were doing.

[@taliabarreto3628]

@@xensonar9652 Oh, absolutely, a lot of people would've hated Finn. But, of the characters introduced in TFA, Finn was the one with the most interesting backstory and the more clearly defined character arc. Of course, having him as the protagonist would've required planning and a clear endgame, what I don't really think they had. So you're probably right and the vitriol would still be there.

[@akinmytua4680]

Honestly, I think you female writers should write all the Mary sues they want. Everyone should have fun creating power fantasies

[@awickedformerdisneysinger8445]

I love Carol Danvers in Captain Marvel. I like her a lot and I think she has a wonderful relationship with both Fury and Maria. Her learning to not be afraid of her emotions and unlock her full potential by embracing them was so powerful to watch.

[@FeralLogic]

What emotions? I didn't see any emotions. I saw smirks and plank.

[@awickedformerdisneysinger8445]

@@FeralLogic Now why would you feel the need to make sure I know that you, a random person, dislike a character I like??? I'm sure you wouldn't want me coming onto a comment about a character you like and saying that they suck, cause that would be rude.

[@saltydinonuggies1841]

Yes. It always bothered me when i would talk about liking her and just get shot down by a bunch of cishet men claiming shes a mary sue. So? I like her.

[@FeralLogic]

@@awickedformerdisneysinger8445 Now why would you feel the need to make sure everyone know that you, a random person, likes a character? I'm sure you wouldn't want everyone coming onto a video about a character creation and saying how much they like poorly written characters. Cause that would be rude.

[@FeralLogic]

@@awickedformerdisneysinger8445 And I didn't say she sucked. I said I didn't see the same thing you did.

[@carbodude5414]

In a better universe, Rey isn't immediately great at piloting, doesn't understand the languages of species that aren't common to Jakku, doesn't inexplicably know more than Han Solo on how to fix and maintain the Millennium Falcon, doesn't know how to reverse Kylo Ren's mind reading or instantly know the Jedi Mind Trick without needing to wave her hand, loses a hand in her first lightsaber duel, suffers greatly for her fighting style of yelling and roaring (which is more of a Sith thing), isn't immediately loved by everyone on first impressions, doesn't beat Luke Skywalker, and isn't Palpatine's granddaughter

[@Qaosbringer]

Black Widow, Pepper Potts, Valkyrie, Gamora, Wasp, Jessica Jones are not Mary Sue. but when you call Captain Marvel as Mary Sue... "It is a sexist term that often arise in male dominated fandoms".

[@CodigoMel]

I don’t understand why a lot of people view a character being a “Mary Sue” as a bad thing? No one questions it when some male characters are perfect beyond belief. So why is it bad for a female version of that to exist? It’s not like it’s stopping complex flawed female characters from being written. I think it’s good for a variety of character types to exist and be enjoyed.

[@Nat-ls1uo]

It depends on what genre, bc a Mary Sue in a drama? No thank you. I think it's boring the type you just rolled your ayes at no matter how many times the character fucks up, it's not addressed and keep frustrating bc it's such a wasted opportunity to talk about xzy. I dropped so many movies, series, books, mangas, animes or other type of media that did this, I have lost count.

[@Zerg777]

I dont know who can be called a mary sue or not really, but i find characters who are just born without flaws boring and unrelatable, male or female. I didnt like rei because she fits that description to me, compared to Luke who had to work for his powers, in fact he was kind of a loser when he entered the narrative. Rei felt extremly capable from the start and had an insane power progression as a jedi compared to Luke.

[@Starburst514]

There's....PLENTY of male characters that are hated and disliked for being Mary Sue's, or called Mary Sue's, I see it ALL THE TIME in fandoms.

[@aenirrinea523]

Because a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu contributes nothing but cliche and is annoying to read about, especially when they're surrounded by better fleshed out characters that actually have something at stake in the story. You can find quite a number of Gary Stus in anime and manga and these characters are often overpowered, no relevant weakness whatsoever. They get the easy way out without any explanation as to how it's possible. They'll be seen as heroes when in fact they got help from a cast of well developed side characters. It's an eyesore to watch them.

[@ManiaMac1613]

That's just not true; a LOT of people complain about Gary Stus, because they suck the tension out of their stories. The reason people complain about Superman being boring is because he's so powerful it's very difficult to write a story with him in it that has believable stakes. Even Batman, a man with no superpowers, has been accused of being a Gary Stu in recent years, because he solves his problems using methods that utterly spit in the face of reason. It's true the discourse around Mary Sues tends towards more toxicity, but it's dishonest to claim its a criticism EXCLUSIVELY aimed at female characters.

[@williamwenrich3288]

There are also “Marty Stu”. Any character that doesn’t have to learn or grow, they are just too good. The animation Mulan is not a Mary Sue. She is not automatically good at everything. A large part of the movie is her training and she is not good at it in the beginning. In the live action movie, not so much.

[@nikoteardrop4904]

If Captain Marvel is a Mary Sue, then so is Superman, frankly. And Rey in "The Force Awakens" is basically Luke if the droids and Obi Wan never came into his life, especially as presented in the first two films, before they shoe-horned in her being a Palpatine.

[@jesuschild07able]

So I didn’t know Rey was considered one because she seemed like a copy of Luke. I didn’t care for Captain Marvel for many reasons. 1. I followed her in the comics so I was looking forward to her movie, so I had high expectations. 2. I agree she seemed like a modern Superman and hate to hurt peoples feelings but the recent Superman movies sucked too. Writing a character badly and not having any connection with the character is terrible. However I was wishing for so many of the Marvel female heroes to come to the big screen that I was disappointed. They could have made Black Widow or the Scarlet witch or Storm into movies since these characters already were more than just a cookie cutter personality but they didn’t. I noticed when female characters are flawed they get sidelined.

[@SomeLad12]

Superman has the most easily exploited weakness ever, Kryptonite. He also always seems to lose in fights to Batman somehow, I wouldn’t consider him a Mary Sue.

[@sophieruby9135]

Actually, her being a Palpatine was a popular theory from the beginning. The problem is that there was a different writer for TLJ.

[@TheHulkbuster13]

Superman is kinda of a Mary sue. He's over powered that's why a lot of people don't like his character and why a lot of these people like Batman more. Me personally I only care about Superman fights if I think he'll lose.

[@TheHulkbuster13]

New Hope to Return of the Jedi is 4 years. Last Jedi starts at the same point where Force awakens ends and no one trained Rey unlike Luke, she's the only main character not to get a permanent injury unlike Luke and Anakin both of whom lose fights and Anakin is the chosen one stated to have the greatest force potential and he still had over a decade of training and still lost to Count Dooku and more than 3 years later would lose to Obi Wan. Even her being a Palpatine doesn't explain that.

[@agatheb]

If someone doesn't like a character because she was badly writtin or the movie didn't do her justice, they are allowed to criticize and not be labled as "sexist".

[@agatheb]

@@lithosagymfan1254 Well it depends on the "strong female character" they are criticizing. For example if they call Wonder Woman a Mary Sue, then yes they are sexist, because she is really well written. The writers didn't just characterize her as a strong woman but also gave her depth and showed us that you can be strong and have emotions. Same thing for Jo in Litlle Women. On the other hand if you call Captain Marvel a Mary Sue you are right because the writters didn't give her any depth whatsoever and wrote a one dimensional character.

[@BSWVI]

I have always gotten a kick out of accusations of Mary Sues - in a world of laughably unrealistic and improbable male action Heroes and superheroes. The criteria for non-Mary Sue characters is again too high a bar for so many male characters. And anyway, sometimes girls want the very same shallow wish-fulfillment that boys find in many of their heroes. Sometimes it just doesn't matter what someone else thinks.

[@dangerdash4393]

The thing is though, in-universe it makes sense. There's reason and explanation, there's history, it doesn't take you out of the story. For example, many like to claim Anakin was a Mary Sue in TPM, but ignore some key factors that justify much if his earlier skills. Meanwhile, with Rey, she just develops everything she needs overnight, quite literally, in such a fashion that you can't help but question it. It's like watching a show where you follow warriors that they train and rise through the ranks, then a new one comes along and becomes a seasoned warrior in a few episodes with no real justification.

[@darkengine5931]

One thing though with legendary over-the-top male action heroes that kick ass left and right in absurd ways (this excludes examples like John McClane since he really struggles and doesn't kick ass so much) who are glorified like Arnie, Sly, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Jason Statham, Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris, and Tom Cruise is that all of these actors have incredible athletic prowess and also often a very unique type of charisma that bleeds into every single film they star in. They're so memorable in their choreography, stuntwork, and/or one-liners that they become a brand of their own. Kickboxer isn't a "film that has Jean-Claude Van Damme", it's a "Jean-Claude Van Damme film." You know what I'm saying? A big reason why Kickboxer sequels bombed is almost certainly because they lacked JCVD in spite of having more intricate plots and character development. We can't replace Jean-Claude Van Damme with just any good-looking guy who can do high kicks even if he's a far superior actor (not a high standard given how JCVD can barely act); JCVD is one-of-a-kind and a natural-born action star. That's not to say that women lack these qualities: far from it! In fact, if we look outside of Hollywood or back to the 80s, there were so many legendary female action stars that were also iconic and brand names in the same way. Cynthia Rothrock is just one example: she created a whole slew of popular action films showcasing how she kicks ass left and right. You can write the most generic action script just showcasing how the protag defeats everyone, cast Cynthia Rothrock in her prime, and I can guarantee that there won't be debates about whether she's a Mary Sue. But Cynthia Rothrock has 7 black belts and a very unique charisma of her own (she's the action star that inspired Sonya Blade in Mortal Kombat). Same for Kathy Long, Michelle Yeoh, Maggie Cheung, Michiko Nishiwaki, Kara Wai, Moon Lee, Yukari Oshima, etc. Watching them kick ass left and right was mesmerizing because they had exceptonal athleticism, humor, and/or charisma. The reason why a lot of attempts in Hollywood to showcase female badasses these days are often failing on so many people is very likely due to different standards in casting between men and women. If Hollywood wants to cast a male action star, they look for physicality, athleticism, charisma, and often age (most male action stars are 30s+ which lends credibility to their character being combat-experienced and rugged). When they want to cast a female action star, they seem to look for youth, beauty, and dramatic acting skill (something unnecessary for action heroes). If Hollywood casts pretty-looking young girls who aren't particularly athletic or charismatic to be badasses, of course that's a recipe for failure. Same if they want to cast the male equivalent, like a young Justin Bieber and try to turn him into a badass kicking large men's asses left and right. That's gender-neutral. There are very specific traits that an actor needs to bring, not the writers, to make up beloved two-dimensional action star characters.

[@tobiaslawrence8928]

please do a video next on coc (characters of color) on how to know they arn't the token character or "diversity characters". p.s awsome video

[@roseJ96]

It always annoys me how so many people call Sylvie a Mary Sue literally just because they don't like her or the pairing. Her being able to beat a lot of people at once doesn't make her any more OP than the other heroes able to do the same thing.

[@fuckinolive6053]

sylvie aint a marry sue lmao. if people actually watch the series they'd know

[@LunaticReason]

The reason why there isn't the same response for male characters being Mary Sue type characters is that there was never a push for giving "strong male respresentation". They just existed and those characters are just as criticized but not for the same reason as female ones who are being represented for their gender. No one ever said males are under represented, no one said men are never seen in a positive light, no one was ever trying to promote manhood. These Mary Sue character work on the premise if I make them female than everyone should love and respect them or they'll give them superficial things they think people will respect them for and worse is if that character unhumbly calls that a struggle. The criticism is bad writers can use that as a crutch to deflect criticism. If a person criticizes a Gary Stu you can't claim sexism.

[@dirgniflesuoh7950]

Please apply this to "Cobra Kai". Everybody loves Johnny, so do I, they also love Miguel who is a lousy boyfriend. Instead a bunch of people totally hate Amanda, bc she worries about how to make a living, and her family being at risk, and wanting time with her husband, Sam is hated for having her own arc, trying to juggle the demands of peers, friends, school, boyfriend and father, she has flaws ... It is a prime wxample of how male characters with flaws are human and relatable, while female ones with flaws are bad, rotten ...

[@devilinred3319]

Actually, i always thing Miguel was a toxic boyfriend, but everyone on the fandom show hate to Sam and Tori... for HIS mistakes. Miguel HIT Sam in a jealousy rage (even when the hit was for Robbie) , and CHEAT ON Tori. I mean those double standarts are sick

[@dirgniflesuoh7950]

@@devilinred3319 Exactly, I am still waiting for the "Why Miguel is the worst boyfriend" video.

[@nicokrasnow1851]

I think a lot of people agrees Miguel wasn't a good boyfriend to neither Sam or Tori, and that Amanda is a GREAT character. I don't like Sam because she is self-righteous and hypocrite and I don't think she learned from that, I know Daniel's too but he grow past most of his biased views.

[@infidelheretic923]

Skylar was deliberately written to be reasonable and yet unlikable. This isn’t sexism it’s just clever story telling. None of her arguments or ideas were off kilter, but they interfered or found themselves at odds with Walts plans.

[@tofu_golem]

The concept of a "Mary Sue" is not legitimate. We only have this discussion about female characters, never male characters. The reason for that should be obvious. Most action heroes are ridiculously overpowered and have improbable skills because they are power fantasies. People want to imagine themselves being more powerful and capable. But for thousands of years, female characters who show agency at all were always villains, while "good" female characters properly waited for men to do things to them or for them. The idea of a female character showing agency and being presented as a hero is still very new and some people are having more trouble adapting to the change than others. How can we possibly spend this much time talking about Rey being a Mary Sue, but not, say, Superman? I stopped reading Superman comics as a child because it was too difficult to ever believe he was in any danger and that made his comic books boring to me, even as a gullible, impressionable child. Heck, even Luke Skywalker in that Mandalorian finale was more of a Mary Sue than Rey. The whole appeal of Luke as an action hero was that he failed a lot. He was complex, he was interesting, but that Mandalorian episode just turned him into a flawless killing machine. Jack Ryan has improbable amounts of applicable knowledge and skills, as does every action hero that is an obvious power fantasy of an author's out of control self image (e.g. Jack Reacher). And don't even get me started on the current wave of older male Mary Sue action heroes that are obviously intended as power fantasies for men my age who are having difficulty accepting getting old (e.g. Taken). I am sick and [bad word] tired of discussions about Mary Sue characters unless someone wants to have a serious discussion about the much larger number of male Mary Sue characters, or better still, talk about why we have this discussion with female characters but not male characters.

[@dangerdash4393]

A lot of people don't talk about Superman because he's really not a Mary Sue. People talk about how he's so overpowered, but they forget that he's an alien, they're comparing him to humans. The few times he faces an extraterrestrial threat, or a human that finds a way to match him (like Nuclear Man, for example), he always struggles. Luke in Mando isn't a Mary Sue, you forget that this is after the events of the OT, it would make sense that he would be much more powerful than before. He's not always gonna get shot in the hand like he did in RotJ. What you're complaining about here is a student becoming a master after years of training. Can't speak on Jack Ryan or Jack Reacher, never watched them. Taken isn't anything new, and far from a Mary Sue example, it's simply about someone who never lost their skill. People like to throw around the word over powerful male characters, but ignore that there's actual reasoning for their skill.

[@Author.Noelle.Alexandria]

In the earlier 2000’s, Gary Stus were talked about as well. There just happen to be more Mary Sues.

[@eMMex2art]

Actually I don't think Superman is a Mary Sue, it depend a lot on the writer. On the other hand, Batman totally is.

[@laurajanco2i]

You can be ovoerpowered and still not a Mary Sue...that's not a character trait.

[@gpcat]

I think my biggest problem with Ray isn't even that she's a Mary Sue, but how racist it is to marketing the biggest franchise in Hollywood with a black male protagonist, an original and interesting story of a jedi storm trooper, but then make it about a white protagonist, but nobody said anything because it's a woman...

[@mrslukeskywalker]

THIS is absolutely my biggest gripe with the new ones. Finn was my favorite new character and the writers just... abandoned him partway through???

[@mrslukeskywalker]

@kshamwhizzle yes! Exactly!!!! It was like "let's put poc in the cast to appeal to more people but we don't actually give a fuck about their characters at all".

[@Cauldron6]

Yeah, the racism was not great in TFA and really ramped up in TLJ.

[@alondraperez-ramirez8363]

And how they ended up making the Latino character a drug dealer.

[@retiefgregorovich810]

Rey fixes a ship she's NEVER been on. Rey flies the Falcon better than anyone before her, even though she has NEVER flown it before. Rey defeats a trained light saber user even though she's NEVER used one before. She heals using the force, something no one has EVER done before. She learns to mind control just by someone trying to mind control her, again, even though she's never been trained on in and NEVER done it before. On and on and on. It is these NEVERs that make a person a Mary or John Sue. I would disagree with the statement that Rey is likeable. Perfect characters rarely are. The actress is likeable, to me, at least.

[@jonathananderson5990]

A very minor one to possibly add to your list is: how did she learn to swim? She's NEVER been off of Jakku (sp?), which is a desert planet.

[@DunningKrugerJnr]

Male action film protagonists have always been derided as one-dimensional and boring…the difference is that Star Wars is a billion dollar franchise, and should have invested in decent scriptwriters capable of giving Rey some depth 🙄

[@Greenblueorange]

With Rey, I wonder how much of the anger at her is misplaced anger at the generally poor writing and handling of this latest trilogy. I would be interested in a story starring Rey with actual good writing. I think Star Wars fans do have the ability to like and accept a female charcater, look at Jyn Erso from Rogue One.

[@linaaviles1971]

That’s what I say. I see that when people talk about the new trilogy they only criticize Rey as being what made it bad. When I reality every single character was poorly written due to the company clearly not knowing where they were taking the story.

[@baaltohrthewarlock3336]

Lets also not forget Ahsoka Tano. I think the anger was not misplaced since its not exactly Rey being in a poorly written movie but Rey BEING the most poorly written thing in the movie since so much of the movie's plot revolve around her. Luke was poorly written but it was mostly to accommodate for Rey.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

Jyn was boring and unlikable.

[@jacobodom8401]

@@steamboatwill3.367 I like Jyn, she actually has a character arc. From passive to active heroine. Rey is basically a walking talking plot device given powers to conveniently serve the plot.

[@steamboatwill3.367]

@@jacobodom8401 ) can we agree to disagree?

[@ML-di8lt]

Straight up screw people who didn't like Skylar. She was brilliant and practical and reacting to a reeeeaaaaaally shitty thing her spouse CONTINUED doing to her.

[@Matthew_Murray]

Mary Sue is such a loaded term, thrown around by people who want to hide their sexism as genuine criticism. There are so many female characters that would be absolutely loved by fans if they were male instead. The type of people that say "I'm not sexist I just hate badly written characters" who just coincidently think that every female character is badly written, and never says anything about a male character being poorly written. At some point, you realize that these people just don't like women in leading roles.

[@dangerdash4393]

Please share with me these characters we hate as Mary Sues but would apparently love as males. I'm interested to see where this goes if it's not just nonsensical bleating. Also, we've literally done comparisons to established well written characters, and in the case of Rey, reminded people that there were tons of well written female characters in Star Wars before Disney erased them all.

[@ReySkywalker2]

@@dangerdash4393 Except Rey is proven to not be a Mary Sue. It’s not a matter of opinion mind you, it’s a proven scientific fact. Rey Skywalker is not a Mary Sue. She fails, has massive, well developed psychologically deep character flaws, needs help, struggles, has explanations for her abilities, etc, etc, etc. In fact, Anakin and Luke are far more Mary Sue like than Rey ever was.

[@dangerdash4393]

@@ReySkywalker2 We've been over this before. Her failures aren't from her own doing but plot failures, it gives the illusion that she failed. Nothing about her psychologically ever plays a part in anything, even the point of her going straight to the dark side to feel something has no meaning, it's like having a drug addict who never has withdraws or suffers side effects. She has help at times, yes, but this ultimately annuls any failure, coming back to her failures not being hers but plot points. And her explanation means nothing. So she's a Palpatine, how does that justify the lack of training or experience? And how are Luke and Anakin more Mary Sue with training and actual failure?

[@nicolas._.2294]

​@@dangerdash4393 any superhero female caracter that is called a Mary Sue. Like there are many male caracter Gary Stue but apparently that alr...didn't saw any hate towards them.....maybe I am not looking deep enough in the dark side of an Fandom. And no I am not talking about captain marvel with is a Mary Sue. Like I mean most female caracters are called Mary Sue by people not liking them or being sexist, like I ask them for why is she a Mary Sue and their answer is bull-(don't wanna my comment get taken down)

[@Laurtew]

I think my yardstick for a Mary Sue is does she have any flaws or make mistakes that she has to fix. If not, there is literally nowhere for her character growth to go. And that makes for a main character that is hard to take. What kind of story can you tell? (Once there was a girl. She was really amazing. If only other people understood that, life would be better. The end.) The example that I use is in the original Disney Mulan, she was just a girl who joined the army to save her father. She knew that she could die and that if she got caught, they'd go back and get her dad. She made mistakes. The whole point of "I'll Make a Man out of You," was how she couldn't keep up. When she overcome this, it was by using her brains, not her brawn. She found a way. (Like using the weights to climb the pole or creating an avalanche.) She ended up saving the Emperor by thinking around the problem. (What man would think to dress all those guys up like women?) In the new Mulan, she was born the chosen one with amazing powers. What was her risk in going to war? She knew she'd win and couldn't be hurt. She had other characters saying, "we just need to listen to her." She was perfect and if everyone would just understand that, she'd fix everything. Where is the growth? Where is the risk? Cartoon Mulan had to find her strengths before she was found out or died. Live Action Mulan just had to get the men out of the way. It's why I think a character like Buffy wasn't a Mary Sue. She had so many faults and had a lot of growing up to do. She needed to be taught how to slay, it didn't just come naturally. She fought her destiny, but she found her way. But Rey was IMO because she came perfect from her heritage and just knew how to save everyone. What growth space did she have? She was with Luke for like a week, then she knew better and ran off to save Ben. If there isn't a challenge to overcome a growth to be made it's a very boring story.

[@nicolejennings8389]

They scrutinize women simply for being women. Male actors don't get the same obstacles about boring roles.

[@rodrigorousseau562]

Mulan in the live action remake is a Mary Sue

[@KittySnicker]

Yes! But 1998 Mulan is awesome

[@bigmouselittlemouse2001]

@@KittySnicker I know. Milan 2020 was only good at fighting because she apparently had special ‘chi powers’ ever since she was a child, and never even had to work to get higher up. Mulan 1998 however actually had to work hard and believe in herself to get where she is, and she still made mistakes along the way.

[@bakugo9761]

It's 100% valid not to enjoy "mary sue" characters, but it is also valid to enjoy it! Wish-fulfillments are valid. A character doesn't need to be realistic or whatever for her to be enjoyable, sometimes you just wanna kick back and relax by watching someone who is super special and OP and perfect lmao.

[@dangerdash4393]

True, but those usually belong in a certain medium (for example, One Punch Man).

[@PokhrajRoy.]

No offence but does anyone else think Daisy Scott and Keira Knightley sound similar?

[@philkane5753]

Both English actress, with posh accents.

[@danielwadford3699]

Your analysis of Skyler in Breaking Bad is spot on. The flaws that women in fiction usually have (nagging or cheating) aren't really about the women themselves or their internal world but only ways in which they wrong men. I also think that a woman's "likability" is based on how she helps or harms a man. For example, in Sam Raimi's Spiderman, Mary Jane Watson came from an abusive household and has unstable relationships with men as a result. Peter Parker is the only one that she can be herself around. In the first film, MJ starts off as a man-pleaser until Peter opens himself up to her. In the second film, we see her move on from Peter to marry John Jameson, who she only plans to marry to prove something to her abusive father as a deleted scene from Spiderman 2.1 cut reveals. Despite this, most critics and audiences hate MJ and say that she is not good enough for Peter. The internet told Peter to ditch MJ for the landlord's daughter Ursula Ditkovich. Why? Because she's a well-written flawed fleshed-out 3-dimensional multifaceted character whose actions have long-term consequences for her and those around her? No. It's because she was nice and sweet and made cake and cookies for Peter. This shows the expectations placed on female characters and how they are "likable". It probably wouldn't have mattered if MJ was as non-comic accurate as possible. If all she did was make cake, cookies and milk for Peter like Ursula did, critics and audiences wouldn't have minded. If all MJ did was not do any wrong against a man she probably would have been more "likable" even if she had no flaws such as an internal struggle with abuse and trauma. However, if she suffered abuse and trauma but they had no ill-effects on her personality and life as a result she probably would have been called a Mary Sue.

[@baonguyenxuanthai711]

I agree with this 100%

[@brooklynbuglet]

…sigh Rey is a Mary Sue, that was changed in Last Jedi, but then it was promptly undone in Rise of Skywalker. I also think that Luke is a very imperfect hero, lest we forget he struggles to understand the lessons Yoda teaches him, he LOSES his fight against Darth Vader in Empire, nearly fails to take down Vader and the Emperor because of his rage

[@AmySwain03]

My favourite non Mary-Sue is wand maximof and Rebecca bunch

[@buddytheoc]

she's an ingenue!!

[@gracecaddick3279]

I think it’s important to remember that men can be Mary Sue characters too. I think to be a Mary Sue means that a character has too much power over the events of a story. In my opinion good writing means that if any character is removed from the story, their absence should equally change the outcome of that story. It is unfortunate that the term is so heavily gendered and inherently sexist because it does outline a valid criticism of poor writing and misunderstanding how to positively include representation.

[@Visplight]

It's called a Gary Stu if it's a guy and yeah, see Iron Fist for a good example of "why TF are you here, you should fuck off and let the other characters do this."

[@dangerdash4393]

The term isn't heavily gendered and "inherently sexist" because it started with women (and was started by a women who saw an influx of overly perfect female characters).

[@Dearprishila2024]

Arya is not Mary sue. She practice the strike for thousand times and it's her especial skill.

[@MrBloodcore]

The neo character was called out as a "Mary sue" for the second and third matrix film we just didn't have the term to call him that, he was way too powerful, nothing challenged him, did all the impossible things. The highlight of those two movies was the highway scene because he wasn't in it

[@authorlynndavis]

Yeah but the effect of that wasn't further alienation of men in sci-fi. So ...

[@authorlynndavis]

Like it's not if a character is called out. It's the how and the framing and then the gaslighting to make it look like "valid criticism" that works so well that I can't even discuss characters like Rey with otherwise reasonable people

[@MrBloodcore]

@@authorlynndavis true, I think that's what happens when a critique can be given so often that it's getting its own terms. Like you would have to give a long explanation on why neo is a Mary sue if you can't just flat out call him that. That also causes people who don't really understand the critique use the term to try and explain why they don't like it. Or they just repeat what they heard. To me, the best way to explain what a Mary sue is, would be to watch the animated mulan film and the life action one and see how the movie treats the mulan character. It's true that neo didn't ruin Sci fi, (though tech noir fits the film better) but the matrix isn't as legendary as star wars, its not like the neo character could influence the way we now look at a film franchise loved by generations. The Rey character could and did. Not that Rey is the only problem in the films but its definitely a part of it

[@MrBloodcore]

@@Chris-rg6nm the difference is that superman was designed as such, he isn't supposed to be identified with or to be relatable in any kind of way, with a superman film you're just watching good defeating evil. In the matrix film you could argue that the machines are doing the humans a favor, if everyone was "free" they'd have to live underground in raggedy clothes eating nasty gruel. Though it's true that a lot of people in the matrix seem to live unhappily (if the matrix is a copy of our world) we don't know if the people in concentration camps actually lived through it or that it's just images in books and documentaries. They did say in the film that the first version was paradise but the humans rejected it, so they would need to show horrible events to make the world acceptable. Superman is just good.

[@mjd268]

@@authorlynndavis it’s because whenever a Mary Sue is introduced it feels like an author/writer is actively trying to push an agenda. A male Gary Stu is bad writing. A Mary Sue is also bad writing, but can give off the impression of a political agenda. Is this alienation valid? Maybe not, but you can’t blame people for not liking a poorly developed message being forced down their throats.

[@raddysaddy4865]

Rey is fairly called a mary sue. Luke doesn’t beat Vader until the end of the third film as he needs to train and have his arch. Rey beats kylo in the first film and succeeds in everything in the second film. It’s only in the third film where she is beaten by Kylo, and that is years after people started calling her a Mary Sue.

[@yb000]

Luke also destroys the Death Star, while escaping Vader, who's the best starfighter pilot Obi-Wan ever knew much more outrageous feat than Rey beating a guy who's unstable because you know, he killed his father

[@col06007]

I think Rey is universally acknowledged to be the textbook example of a Mary Sue.

[@dangerdash4393]

@@yb000 Luke has experience as a pilot, and would've been space dust if Han hadn't showed up. Meanwhile, Rey manages to pilot the Falcon and navigate a debris field with little difficulty, despite having only flown a few times, and not even off planet (so how does she know how to navigate that debris field in the first place), uses a highly advanced force ability as her first use of the force almost instantly, and best a trained duelist (who isn't even as badly injured as they want you to believe), despite having never even picked up a sword before. Yup, definitely looks like Luke is more overpowered.

[@w0mblemania]

Woman who plays a Mary Sue character gets annoyed when character is called a Mary Sue... What a shocker.

[@w0mblemania]

@Lithosagym Fan Or, because the character may indeed be a Mary Sue, but some people on the internet have an ideological axe to grind.

[@w0mblemania]

@Lithosagym Fan Nah. It's a commonly used word, going back many years, for poorly developed characters who are given unbelievable powers, as a way to either insert a message in to the story, or insert the author in to the story.

[@remyraymay]

The term itself is so tired & clearly rooted in misogyny. You can have a man single-handedly go to war & kill everyone in sight regardless of how unrealistic that is but because his a dude it’s not questioned but celebrated in Rambo, but if a woman does anything similar to that she’s perfectly boring? FOH. I occasionally enjoy watching women being just as flawless and bad ass.

[@melikeskalico3812]

Rambo is an emotionless crazed ptsd tormented veteran... Similar to sarah connor in t2, thats why they work. You should use vin diesel in fast and furious as an example, piece of shit movie with piece of shit characters.

[@mikaylaeager7942]

I’m also allowed to want female characters like Captain America though. Characters that aren’t defined by their flaws, but are just good people trying to make the world better because it’s what’s right. Flaws =\= complexity (it just makes it easier)

[@supervideomaker9136]

I still think the term Mary Sue is stupid. Like just call it what it is, shit writing. Every time I see a story with an over powered/ flawless male character, no one ever calls them a Gary stu. They just call it shit writing

[@luluscaglione]

I don't mind calling rey a mary sue because all other protagonists from star wars are gary stus. In the end it is just a very shallow story with very well made worldbuilding 🤷

[@cryptidsprinkles]

I know this is random but I’d love if The Take made a blu ray set of their video essays! And honestly I wish all KZbin essayists would consider this. These works are worth preserving!

[@BloodyMary74]

There are plenty of Gary Stus: James Bond, Superman, the badasses played by Arnie or Jean Claude Van Damm. There is a whole category of stories about mysterious strangers who live only to rescue people. And that's the point, these stories are meant to be escapist power fantasies. Everybody accepts that. And they can co-exists with stories like the Godfather or Taxi Driver about imperfect mem. The same thing should apply to women. Plenty TV shows have characters who always look glamorous and have perfect apartments and always have time to shop with their friends. But there is also a place for Bridget Jones or Desperate Housewives.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

James Bond is not even close to being a Gary Stu.

[@BloodyMary74]

@@vetarlittorf1807 How so? He is good at anything he does despite never having to actually train. All the women want him, even during a violent action scene or after a night of drinking his suit and tie look perfect.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@@BloodyMary74 He is gifted and has a photographic memory, but he's not good at everything. And while he is a womanizer, let me remind you that Bond is a homophobic asshole who is a jerk to women and whose life is essentially nothing but pain, and he tries to bury that pain by killing people and having sex with women. And of all the women he's slept with, there are only two (Vesper Lynd and Tracy Di Vicenzo) that he could bring himself to genuinely love. But life is hard on Bond. Vesper betrayed him and Tracy was murdered the moment Bond married her. Also, what made you think Bond never trained? After his university graduation he joined the Royal Navy where he gained the skills to apply for a position of a junior officer in the MI6 and there he spends about a decade acquiring more skills and experience before finally becoming a 00 agent.

[@BloodyMary74]

@@vetarlittorf1807 I don't remember any instances of homophobia, definitely not during the Brosman and Craig era when homophobia was not socially acceptable and would be considered a serious character flaw. His trying to settle with a women happened twice in a really long series. In most movies he has the life he chose. He even leaves in Skyfall and chooses to come back. His training is all "tell not show". We don't even get a training montage. In Skyfall he just somehow gets back into shape. In "You only live twice" we are told Bond is a master of orient languages. What does that even mean? That's several different languages and each takes years to learn. If Bond is not a Gary Stu then Bella and Emily shouldn't be called Mary Sues. They're not good at everything and they don't always look flawless. Emily is often mocked for being a hick.

[@nicolas._.2294]

Yea we know, but that not the problem, in most media that I've seen when it's about a Gary Stue(the male termen for Mary sue I think)I don't see any hate everything is alr and that caracter is just cool and things like that, as when I see something about a Mary Sue I see a lots of hate and that caracter is awful and why is a female better than a male, the point is that mostly but mostly of the comments are sexist(from what I personally see, and I am a lot into super hero stuff)