Evangelical and Episcopal Priest Talk Theology at a Liberal, Mainline Episcopal Church

[@boomerthomas4309]

Just FYI, the official position of The Episcopal Church is that one must be baptized and repentant of one's sins before receiving Holy Communion. This canon is rarely, if ever, enforced, but it's still the official position of The Episcopal Church.

[@patrickdean4853]

A rule, by definition, is not a rule if it is not enforced.

[@zestotemp]

One wonders why this would be controversial. Why would someone who is not baptized want communion? Seems like if they want communion then they want to be baptized, which is easy to fix.

[@patrickdean4853]

@@zestotemp because it is a false action to suggest unity. Regardless of denomination- no one should present them selves for communion without agreement to the doctrines held by the respective church.

[@DavidLeatherwood1517]

@@patrickdean4853Exactly, one wouldn’t go to someone’s house and have dinner with them if they didn’t get along or didn’t agree on core principles.

[@christianf5131]

Enforced by some parishes, though unfortunately, the churches I’ve been to have explicitly denied it. Yet another reason I left TEC

[@maobfh]

I appreciate the respect that you treat those who believe things differently than you to. So many people are polarized in a specific direction, probably well over 20,000 directions and do not know how to agree to disagree. Within my close family, these disagreements occur. Within a group of ladies formed to make an impact with the marginalized, will disagree. Disagreements are good, disrespect is not good. I am a Catholic and the hateful comments I see annd hear is appalling. I recognize that there are ministers who spend their time at the pulpit telling many mistruths about Catholics, the Catholic Religion and Catholic Faith. I find it sad, I recognize it as gossip and slander and it is unfortunate. We are not judge and jury and we should love all of our brothers. This includes our Muslim brothers, our Jewish brothers and sisters all, and we should adore our Christian brothers and sisters. I love how the individuals you interview are so sure in their faith that they can confidently answer any question, even troublesome questions, thoroughly and not defensively. I am NOT an Evangelical Protestant and previously believed I did not like them, in spite of everything I said before. The truth (as I see it) is that amidst all of the different faiths who worship GOD, there will be sheisters and cheats. Swindlers and liars, because we are all sinful humans and those people are everywhere. But, I follow your channel and watch most every video when I am notified that you have put one up. You have eliminated quite a few of my prejudices, and I thank you, sincerely, for that. Would that we all treated those we disagree with with the respect you give. Thank you.

[@patriciaryan1716]

Very kindly said. And transparent and is appreciated. I'm glad his videos have had you see those positive positions. I myself have every denomination in my family, and we all strive to get along and love eachother as Christ loves us. I like how you said, there are shiesters in every bunch, but you can see Jesus is the hearts of the ones who heartily follow Him and lead it that. Former Catholic, Non-denominational now, but love the richness of my tradional brothers and sisters, and truly God has been stirring my heart for some time and I desire the Liturgy, Creeds, and other things so much. I guess I'll say undecided right now. Comments like yours are what we need. Open and loving, honest and extending a hand. A bridge. Thanks brother or sister. God bless

[@erc9468]

35:30 Q: "So do you have anything called sin in your church? Is anything wrong? Is there justice in the universe?" A: "There's a big wide spectrum and people believe different stuff......" This right here is why Liberal Christianity never goes anywhere. People attach themselves to religious communities for many reasons, but a big one is to understand that there might be a higher, bigger picture than what us little individuals can see. Liberal Christianity doesn't answer the questions that people go to church to find out answers to. So why go? I'd rather go to brunch, if nobody has any answers, since at least there will be some good food there.

[@DAce-vu5ct]

100% True. Liberalism isn't tethered to the word. This homosexual and blasphemous man needs repentance.

[@jamesellis1190]

I bet you google stuff and use the first couple of hits as “research”? This is the very FIRST non conservative Minister that Matt has interviewed. Look how diverse the responses have been within the conservative churches .. the non-conservative is the same. Using labels like “liberal Christianity” so fiercely is just sad.

[@erc9468]

@@jamesellis1190 So you really don’t know that there is such a thing as “liberal Christianity “??? There is, and it has a particular definition. It sounds like you’re the one just spitballing stuff.

[@valerierichards7264]

I come from a tradition which has become similar in many regards to St. Marks. I have reconciled it in my mind by viewing the church as a big family. Sometimes families agree, sometimes they disagree, but no matter what they are family. Sometimes i strongly disagree with my family but i love them anyway.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

There will also be sects among you, that those of you who are approved may be made manifest.

[@ninjason57]

It's frustrating that a reverend of a church that claims to represent Christ on this earth cant answer direct questions crucial to the faith without reframing them to fit his own theological definitions. If anything this is a good example of where the church can go wrong. In the end Jesus will judge and separate the goats from the sheep. Matt you did a great job.

[@theoldpaths6897]

Liberal Christianity is saltless (Luke 14:34,35).

[@ColinHadaway]

Wow! What an inspiring video! -Matt's mom

[@dylanoshell93]

As a pastor in a more conservative context, I deeply appreciate you reaching across the spectrum and building bridges of conversation! I think that's a big way we can love each other. I don't need to agree to respect and love. Thanks for modeling the way!

[@dylanoshell93]

Also just a plug here. You should do an LDS church next!

[@patrickdean4853]

@@dylanoshell93that could be painful to watch … it would be difficult for anyone with Matt’s knowledge of Christianity to not, if even accidentally, Obliquely, suggest that LDS is not a form of Christianity by even the slightest definition.

[@calebstroup6917]

LDS is not Christian. I don't care if it's offensive to say that. Truth is far more important than saving someone's feelings.

[@patrickdean4853]

@@calebstroup6917 just shows you that there are plenty of suckers out there to be had.

[@dylanoshell93]

@@calebstroup6917 That might be true! But all the more I think that's why @MattWhitmanTMBH makes these videos. To clarify and understand. I'm just hoping we can do that :)

[@andrewtexley448]

To be honest, I was expecting something more controversial and heated. I found this as a really great and honest conversation, and you can tell that father Mark is a pastor who has love for the people he’s been called to serve

[@mattpierceblog]

I feel the same way about it. I thought it was going to much different but with Matt's nice guy nature and style of interviewing it gives off a very different vibe. Really a natural interviewer.

[@patrickdean4853]

What you can tell immediately is that Mark is a homosexual and, without much effort, deduce his disordered theology is the consequence of his disordered sexuality. 100%

[@jerryglover8418]

This man seems to be a humanist more than Christian. It seems he is doing what most people do, creating God in his own image. All his 'questions' that are presented as unanswerable, have answers in scripture. He is a traffic cop pointing the way to the wide road, unfortunately. I will be praying for Pastor Mark, that he would find and know the truth. He seems genuinely nice.

[@Fedaykin64]

Im crying watching this. Im directly between these two pastors. And it is so great seeing them love one another. This is what Our lord and savior the big homie Jesus wants to see[ in my humble opinion] thank you matt . We have never meet but you have helped me and my family so much since i discovered your channel. Cant express how much the kingdom needs these dialoges on both sides. God bless you bro. And much love to all the homies in the chat .

[@df6957]

In watching this video, and several others that I have enjoyed in this series, I am reminded of the phrase that I heard in college. "As Christians we are called to unity, not uniformity." It is in your conversations with countless diverse expressions of worship and experiences of relationship with God that I have begun to see how "not uniform" we are, and how there can still be a recognition of brotherhood and sisterhood across the denominational divide. Thanks Matt, for these insightful conversations.

[@lynettemeaker5202]

These conversations always cause me to take a closer look at what I think I believe about God and my relationship to Him and where that belief comes from - through tradition, relationship, or clear Biblical parameters. I think if we are honest with ourselves, much of what we believe is rooted more in tradition that what we might like to admit. This content challenges that in my own life and I believe leads me toward more spiritual maturity. Thank you.

[@claytonrichison7903]

Matt you always do such a good job of being courteous and gracious even when there are disagreements. Thanks for being willing to just ask questions and try to understand the position. I would love to see a follow up video as you continue to process through this.

[@bmorros]

I love that you asked him about "God's dream" because that caught my ear when he said it too! Well done and very respectful. Thank you!

[@mkmoore8999]

You should read the book he recommended by Verna Dozier! It’s incredible.

[@moveabledo]

He had me until "Hitler IS in heaven." I could understand "Hitler might be in heaven" for we cannot be the ones who stand in ultimate judgment. But to make the declaration that all go to heaven because of the work of Christ on the cross, then there would be no reason for all of the teachings of "I am the narrow gate."

[@patrickdean4853]

Well said. This guy is a total shister.

[@peterfox7663]

My guess is he likes the trappings of an Episcopal church more than a Unitarian Universalist one

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

Narrow is the road and cramped the path leading off into salvation, and few are finding it.

[@McCainenl]

He does follow it up by saying that God has done some kind of restorative justice, at some point in 'time' (not our time). That makes it less wild, I think

[@mkmoore8999]

Christ is the narrow gate, the only way we may all enter. We can not enter in on our own, He is the way for all people. There is nothing contradictory there.

[@yourneighborkevin]

Well done, Matt. Thank you so much for being with those at the forefront of courteous, heartfelt ecumenical discourse. The peace of Christ be with you always.

[@Calphool222]

I'm Episcopalian. I was raised in an evangelical Southern Baptist church. The thing that landed me in the Episcopal Church was frankly the stifling "certainty" with which I was raised. I just didn't compute to me that people could have *that* much certainty about a bunch of really mysterious things, I didn't trust their reasoning to get to the answers, and I REALLY didn't appreciate being told to be quiet when I asked hard questions. In the Episcopal Church people aren't afraid to say "I don't know the answer to that," and it's up to *YOU* to dig into Scripture, consider time and place of things said and done in Scripture, consider how those should or should not affect you in modern life. That was refreshing, because my faith no longer felt like such a straight jacket where I had to just agree and do what the pastor said, even if he was making a hash of Scripture in his long winded sermon. I sometimes hear people say "but you're not Bible believing," but frankly that's an accusatory lie that I find rather rude and uninformed. Of *course* we're Bible believing. We read and reflect on it *every single service* , literally following a lectionary that ties Old Testament readings, Psalm readings, New Testament Epistles, and Gospel together week by week (not many Evangelical pastors are that thorough in my experience). Scripture is VERY important to us. What we *don't* do however, is pretend like Scripture has no context, or is some simplistic rule book. We acknowledge how it came into being, and we take that into account in how we process it. We know that the canon of Scripture itself was decided *by ecumenical council*. Some things were considered authoritative, some were considered historical but not authoritative, and some things we simple left out because their origin was doubted. To quote Dr. Don Carson: "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." In other words, you can make Scripture say ANYTHING if you ignore context, and that is a kind of churchmanship to which we do not prescribe.

[@lindamascioli4518]

Well said, my friend...well said. That is what drew me to the Episcopal church, too. The beauty, the richness of scripture, tradition, the history, the freedom to reason and the freedom (liberality) to explore deeply bathed in a treasure trove of prayer. Definitely not a faith community that exists in an echo chamber of theology....or "persuasion". Great comments...appreciated!

[@barebob1]

I too was brought up in an evangelical Baptist Church. I became an Episcopalian when I was 25. I have never looked back.

[@williamhibbitts3250]

I'm Anglican. I lean conservative. I've avoided more confessional churches for precisely because of that reason. We are fallible, including our priests and bishops. While we must agree on the essentials of the Christian faith, I am suspicious of any church claiming they have the right answer to every question.

[@desireegrosgebauer6526]

Love my Episcopal church!

[@hanssvineklev648]

@Calphool222. You can find it rude if you like. Completely up to you. But it’s not controversial to say that Episcopalians believe what they want to believe in Scripture and disregard the rest. It’s not really up for debate. Most Episcopalians I know wouldn’t bother to contest it, and frankly, they tend to find wholesale acceptance of the Bible (as divinely inspired) distasteful. Way back in the 1920’s, Princeton’s J. Gresham Machen observed that Christian Liberalism (Mainline Protestantism) was, in truth, an entirely different religion: “The Christian religion . . . is certainly not the religion of the modern liberal Church, but a message of divine grace, almost forgotten now, as it was in the middle ages, but destined to burst forth once more in God’s good time, in a new Reformation, and bring light and freedom to mankind.” The Mainlines have only veered farther and farther left in the past 100 years. There is no longer any resemblance to historic Christianity. Why anyone would try to deny that is beyond me. I grew up in the ELCA (a liberal Lutheran denomination). I had some of the sweet old church ladies in Bible Study or Sunday School from time to time. Their personal theology, such as it was, had far more in common with Hinduism than Christianity. I was also on the HOBD listserve (House of Bishops and Deacons) during the period when the nascent ACNA was pulling away from the TEC. These elites, in the hierarchy of the Episcopal Church, reminded me far more of worldly politicians than leaders of the congregations of Christ. They mercilessly mocked their more conservative co-religionists without a hint of compassion for the parishes whose property they were basically stealing.

[@grahammccallum9592]

I must have watched a different video to you Matt. If there were moments of 'friction' - they must have happened and been contained within your inner-dialogue. You came across (to use your own word) very collegial. There is something to be said of Reverend Mark's position to leave the contentious, complex and vexing issues to God, trusting in the Almighty to accomplish His plan (dream). This takes tremendous humility and an understanding of one's own complete inadequacy. For we humans (to use old terminology) love to stride into battle wielding our own axes and swords, usually with catastrophic results. I try to remind myself that the Lord's sharpest edge was reserved for those self-righteous and ungracious. St. Mark's Episcopal Church looks to be a safe and welcoming environment, where the Holy Spirit is left to do His work.

[@patrickdean4853]

And this Church is a place where you can believe whatever you like for whatever reason you dream up. The clergy simply serves to rubber stamp whatever notions someone believes, regardless of objective facts get in the way. In some respects, this is the ultimate manifestation of the Protestant tradition- each person is their own priest and interpreter of scripture. In this case, the “priest” is a homosexual who is “married” to another man, wearing the clothing of a minister, saying absolutely nothing of substance. He is a false friend of Christ, a deceiver and a blind spiritual guide.

[@grahammccallum9592]

@@patrickdean4853 - "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[@patrickdean4853]

@@grahammccallum9592 not protesting, simply point out salient, factual points.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

As much as I can appreciate the attempt at humility by this man - a desire to hear people where they are and to work with whatever they feel they need - doesn't God have a place we must be attentive to, as well? If He really works, oughtn't we be attentive to what He's actually working on? I myself want to try to coordinate with the Christians of all ages and all countries, insofar as they have coordination and cohesion. I cannot stay in the present; I have to find giants who stand above the mire of present opinions.

[@peterfox7663]

37:08 wait what? Hitler is in heaven? Did he ever turn to Christ? Apparently "God's forgiveness knows no bounds" means Universalism.

[@nicholasshaler7442]

He was raised by at least nominally Catholic parents. “All who are baptized are saved” is a very strange position that I don’t think anyone holds, but he could be coming from that angle.

[@ProxenosIR]

Loved the video as always. I wonder Matt if you’ve thought of doing this kind of thing in the UK? I’d love to see you engage with someone over the Church of England. It’d combine your appreciation for Anglicanism with some additional questions around being a state church. We’re also going through a church-wide conversation about living in communion and difference which your take on would be great. I even know a priest theologian or two who would take you up on a conversation!

[@markthomas808]

That gets a huge vote from me! Maybe also with a church here in the evangelical Protestant tradition which, from here in the UK, feels very different in character (and dare I say political colour) from the picture we get of the American Evangelical churches.

[@samhendren9126]

thumbs up to that, would be cool to see him travel to other countries (or maybe just a good zoom call) to talk with folks of other denominations from around the world.

[@jonathanstensberg]

It is contrary to charity to knowingly allow or encourage someone to ‘eat and drink condemnation’ upon themselves.

[@phoga5158]

My thoughts exactly.

[@Kendramac]

Wow, this guy is wild. I don’t understand being a minister and not being convinced that heaven is even real or worth being in. Even setting aside all the other disagreements I have with his theology, not caring about heaven or it’s reality is wild. He comes off as an atheist/humanist that thinks Jesus was a cool dude.

[@Revolver1701]

I’m an Episcopalian but grew up in the SBC. I believe in Holy Scripture and the traditions of the church. Salvation is by faith in Christ. You and I are different in our understanding of the particulars, and those particulars matter, but I respect the differences between us. I also respect you and your faith. Thanks for this video.

[@STG-88]

The problem is, Protestant pastors don't understand biblical history 😂 I don't see any Protestant ministers from the Anglican or Episcopal churches being invited on famous podcasts like Jordan Peterson, and others 😂

[@thomascurry4762]

God bless, Fr. Mark. He's truly a caring soul. The fact that he could say that not everyone belongs here...but belongs somewhere and I'm going to help you find the place where you could be happy (even if it isn't with us) is truly a reflection of the love of Christ. This is a prime example of a tree can be known by the fruit it bears...and this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

[@zudduz]

37:27 It took me a sec to realize but your question about "Is there any justice for what Hitler did?" was something that would have been a softball to most expressions of the Christian faith.

[@edwardadams5831]

Matt, there is something very comforting about watching a man doing exactly what God has planned for him. Please keep following the path that you are seeing laid out.

[@RevDavidReyes]

Pastoring has become even more difficult because of "pastors/priests" like this. A complete rejection of the scripture. How does one become saved? Mat 16:24, "Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23; Etc. People, is does not matter what you, I or anybody else thinks or says. The response is simple, "Here is what scripture says."

[@cthulhupr]

As a catholic I find it hard to understand a christian that does not want to persuade anyone of their beliefs. Either you found the missing coin and communicate your joy to neighbors or you just don't really care about coins. If the Good News is just MY good news, why should I announce it to all creatures?

[@mkmoore8999]

As an Episcopalian that converted from a Baptist tradition, I often joke that I evangelize now more than as an evangelical. I love my faith tradition, and I do want to share it with any and all. However, I don’t want to persuade people to my tradition just because I think it’s the best. They have to determine what’s best for them, they are the expert on themself-not me. And as much as I want people to join my tradition, I know that it’s not the right fit for all. I personally believe that God meets people through various traditions that meets them best in those moments. Episcopalian tradition won’t meet the needs of every person. The baptist church won’t meet the needs of every person. And the Catholic Church won’t meet the needs of every person. We offer the goodness we have, and if it’s not the best fit for you to connect with God at that time, then why would I try to persuade you into that?

[@cthulhupr]

@@mkmoore8999 I think you are totally missing the point. I don't believe in proselytizing, but I certainly believe in evangelizing. I believe that Jesus Christ is the answer to the human condition. I believe he is the incarnation of what God wants for humanity. I do not need to make a baptist a catholic or vice versa. But I consider catholicism has the best articulation and responds more fully to the Gospel. I absolutely want to persuade non christians and the world that the Gospel is the way forward towards God's dream for humanity.

[@spinmaster8202]

It's probably just because persuade/persuasion sounds kinda sneaky/tricky. Encourage is probably a better word, or encouraging change through example.

[@chilldragon4752]

And this is one of the main things that caused me to leave Christianity as a teen. The idea that I need to go to people of other religions and tell them they are wrong and try to convert them to my beliefs. It just feels dirty. If a friend wants to know about my religion I will tell them, if not it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. As a Catholic I fully understand you will disagree and that's okay.

[@marlaemerson3008]

Hitler in heaven? WOW! My father helped to save many people from Hitlers evil. If he were living right now, he would be insensed by that comment.

[@nicomarsh5830]

Would love to see you visit: - a Western Rite Orthodox Church - St Patrick's Orthodox Church in Bealeton, Virginia would be super interesting; - an Ordinariate Use Catholic Church - the Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, Texas would be super interesting; and - some monasteries.

[@mike245401]

I would hate to be Hitler and have to answer for genocide! That's all I'm going to say about that. I think the Episcopal church in my opinion has confused itself and really doesn't know. Because they have abandoned scripture.🤷‍♂️

[@anthonywhitney634]

As nice a guy as Rev. Mark comes across as, I'm a bit saddened that he couldn't give Matt a clear definition of what it means to be saved or not.

[@jldrumm]

When Peter was asked, he gave the answer the Holy Spirit provided him.

[@anthonywhitney634]

@@jldrumm what scripture do you refer to?

[@jldrumm]

@@anthonywhitney634 Search for it and you'll find it.

[@patrickdean4853]

That’s OK, the Protestants can’t give you a straight answer either … that why there are 35,000 Protestant denominations.

[@svsimon]

What wasn’t clear? I thought that he answered very well, that it is not up to him.

[@spades1080]

Matt…. I feel like you’re the best friend I’ve never met. You and Destin are incredible people and I feel very fortunate for having found both of you. Thanks.

[@DavidMacauley]

I 100% agree - I was so happy to discover that Matt and Destin were buds.

[@denlesks9490]

Lol, Matt is a thousand times better person than me! The Episcopal Priest apparently doesn’t believe in judgement day, hell, or eternal accountability. Matt’s interaction with the Priest is one reason Matt is a successful Christian social media influencer and I’m just a commenter in the replies. 😀

[@jerryyoung6494]

Interesting but how tense! So many red flags though. Sad

[@rachelmunde2179]

I think the most powerful parts of this video were “my faith convinces me to…” and “I don’t know” with a comfortable silence following.

[@richmondvernon9993]

Sometimes unity is not good. And is actually bad. Listening to a progressive grip about schisms when they're categorically the ones innivating is bizarre, beinf gaslit in the extreme.

[@elijeremiah1058]

What you’re doing is so important! I’m a lifelong Catholic and when I moved to Oklahoma someone asked me if I’m saved, and I had never heard that in my life. When I told him I didn’t know what that means he laughed at me 😂 it’s like it never occurred to him that not everyone uses his faith’s vocabulary. Although I have to admit I was pretty dumb for not figuring it out by context 😂

[@catholicguy1073]

You are saved the Bible way. Through baptism you were saved. If you fall away you can as you know reconcile yourself back to God through the Sacrament of Confession. He thinks “saved” means for all time when “saved” is actually past tense so they got issues of their own

[@patrickdean4853]

@@catholicguy1073ask 10 Protestants what “saved” means and get 10 different answers😵‍💫😂

[@erc9468]

FWIW, Catholics talk about being “saved”. If no one in your church talks about being saved that’s kind of a red flag.

[@patrickdean4853]

It’s funny- I remember moving to the mountains of NC for two years and having these same exchanges. Most folks were some form of primitive Baptist. I heard several versions of what “saved” meant … none really made sense to me as a Catholic. It went like this: A. Saved once, saved forever B. Saved, backslid, resaved C. Thought you were saved, but were actually not D. You are only saved if God preordains it, nothing you can do about it.

[@dbzgtcrazy]

Yikes. Machen's book was titled 'Christianity AND Liberalism', for a reason.

[@tylere.8436]

The exclusive-and

[@catholicguy1073]

After he said he think Hitler is in heaven how does that square when the Bible is pretty clear that Judas is in hell? Or he believed everyone is “saved” no matter the sins they commit even IF they do not ask for Gods forgiveness. To get forgiveness one must ask for forgiveness which requires taking responsibility for what you did Jesus mentioned hell much more so than heaven. So that would be interesting to explore.

[@rdalbright1]

This guy is way liberal. Is he a Christian? I do not think so, but that is my opinion.

[@TheJm13post]

it is an objective fact that he is not a Christian.

[@reepicheepsfriend]

Respect to this man, he sounds just as I remember my grandparents' Episcopal friends sounding - wanting to hold onto a certain reverent feeling about Christianity, but forgetting its actual power. I wanted to break into the conversation at the point where you asked about justice and he replied "I don't know." As much as people find substitutionary atonement backwards and uncool, at least it provides an answer regarding justice beyond "I don't know"!!! Anyway, the fact that you didn't interrupt or correct as I would have just shows that you're a much better person to be conducting these interviews than I would be.

[@farlado5459]

As an aside, in the liturgy of the Episcopal Church, substitutionary atonement actually does has theological representation. It simply stands among a mosaic of multiple atonement theories which are knit together into a marginally bigger speck of all the things going on when Jesus died on the cross.

[@Monadshavenowindows]

Just because Scripture doesn’t tell us of the disciples being baptized, that doesn’t mean they weren’t. Christ clearly tells his apostles that baptism is a fundamental part of becoming his disciple, so it would be unfitting for them not to have been.

[@milesmoore2313]

Sounded a lot like the interview with the Universalist church. No answers, all questions.

[@mkprr]

I want to understand more how he views the Bible. He seemed almost bothered by some of its terminology but then quoted it at times too.

[@patrickdean4853]

He views the Bible in any way that suits him at the moment. He is a homosexual with a “husband” who preaches nothing by feelings and theological jibberish.

[@sampascoe4934]

As an Anglican priest for over 30 years, as a professor of Anglican Theology, as the author of two books on Anglican Theology, I can say that Reverend Mark represents a very small minority within Anglicanism both historically and globally. Anglicanism, historically and globally, would align itself with orthodox, historic, Protestantism. ACNA was not created to "do its own thing." It was created to allow Anglicans in North America to continue doing what The Church had done for 2,000 years. It was people like Reverend Mark who want to "do their own thing." His presentation of Anglicanism is very dishonest.

[@richmondvernon9993]

He literally opens the video acknowledging he ignores the plain teaching of the (already heavily altered for modernity) BCP

[@ultonian63]

He represents the mainstream of Anglicanism within the Church of England. The congregation of my church in central London would be very comfortable with him as our priest. I bet his sermons are great.

[@nicholasshaler7442]

I am firmly Catholic, but I appreciate men like you who accurately represent their traditions, so that those who disagree can have honest conversations.

[@mkmoore8999]

Yet the Episcopal Church is a part of the Anglican Communion. Is the ACNA?

[@DrGero15]

What are the titles of your books?

[@georgecarlson1460]

The "official" position of the Episcopal Church is baptism, then communion, but a lot of Episcopalians side with Fr. Mark. It's what I find is the "beauty" of the Episcopal Church is we disagree with each other but chose to worship together and go out to do Jesus' work in the world. IF someone receiving communion without baptism matters to God, he will sort it out. God put me in this world to work on me, not to police others in their beliefs (actions that harm others, yes, but beliefs, no).

[@catholicguy1073]

It’s just contradictory to what communion actually IS. It requires being in communion with one another in that community including the official teachings of that denomination. That’s an issue for the leaders, they are held biblically to a higher standard in how they teach their flock. Their communion without baptism would not be efficacious because they are not in communion with their church.

[@HolyKhaaaaan]

There's a few sorts of churches that were already made with this sort of vision in mind. The Disciples of Christ and Churches of Christ are very non-creedal, having only obedience through baptism and Lordship of Jesus as doctrines. Makes me feel that many mainline churches are perhaps oversaturating the market for this type of "follow the spirit, not necessarily the letter of the law" type of Protestantism. The main virtue of Anglicanism is that there is an offer of a liturgical and hierarchical structure, which may offer a form of redress to the congregation (though not the pastor!).

[@briandelaney9710]

That’s a problem in a Creedal Faith when many don’t believe the Creed but cross their fingers and agree to disagree. Cognitive dissonance

[@jellyrollfan93]

Say it louder!

[@tylergraham7352]

Matt, I just gotta say your sweater game has really been on point these last two videos dude! lol

[@McGillLawFirm]

Love your work, Matt, as always. Thankful for my Catholic faith. Offering a prayer that all lost souls find salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ.

[@MilwaukeeWoman]

I'm Episcopalian and disagree with so much of what he said.

[@McCainenl]

I have to say I found this conversation a little confusing compared to my expectations from your intro. I expected a big showdown about 'liberal' expressions of Christianity, maybe Biblical authority and things like that, but most of the conversation is about... how to deal with denominational splits? Maybe it's just me but that seemed a bit tangential

[@stephenstrickland739]

Did my guy just say Jim Jone’s cult is a Christian denomination and that it’s just “unhealthy”?

[@johncox2284]

There are a lot of things about the Episcopal Church I don't agree with but I must say that he is right in that baptism is how we come into the Church. Where I differ is the open communion concept. That has never been a belief of the historical Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) because by taking communion you are saying you believe everything the Church teaches, hence the common-union. A Protestant who doesn't believe in the real.presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist shouldn't be participating because it's like repudiating Christ Himself.

[@Guguchina]

Interesting conversation about communion. As CofE congregant, I would be inclined to say there is a proper order, but not to gatekeep. At my church, the paster gives an option for blessing if they want to come forward but cannot/dont want to take the eucharist and for children unconfirmed Its a nice way for someone on the journey to believing to be included, but not fully take part. But a conversation needs to be had with someone that you know is a different faith that is having communion regularly, not to condemn but to teach. If they are taking communion convictionally, they will just turn to christ and get baptised as a result of that conversation. I wonder if examples like these merely happen since people may not know entirely what it is. But I do also note that the communion service (at least in CofE) does do things like having the congregation confess sins and the creed before the eucharist is shared anyway? A private conversion can surely be done by someone during that service. Otherwise, people who partake in it are just saying words they do not mean.

[@ptoering18]

Appreciate this as always Matt, especially as through the course of this video series (unrelated) I migrated from a calvinist Presbyterian to a Roman Catholic, and I've loved seeing your perspective on all of our Christian brothers and sisters. You have a true gift of grace and charity, keep it up, these are some of my favorite videos on the internet

[@tonywebb3867]

15 minutes into how to be a Christian and not one time was Christ mentioned. Maybe he needs to rethink his beliefs.

[@ericbrown9067]

Wow. A man (and possibly his church, and possibly his entire faith tradition) who is not confident that heaven is a great place to be or that there is justice for sin and evil. I wonder, if I believed these things, how that would change my life... I have to believe Mark has faith that there is justice but can't articulate what that looks like. If I didn't believe that at all, I think it would make life a little too hopeless.

[@jeffreyjourdonais298]

Ask 99 Episcopalians a theology question get 99 different answers. Not all Episcopalians are liberals, some like myself are conservatives and closely follow the articles of religion of tha anglican faith.

[@patrickdean4853]

With respect: Best start looking for another denomination, Episcopalians are done for in America, just like the greater Anglican Communion. It’s just math- advocating for homosexual policies and female clergy was the poison pill. It was a good run, but now it’s effectively over for Anglicans world wide. So many left the Catholic Church actually created a special religious rite for them to enter the Catholic Church. That says how bad the flight is.

[@canadianamateurfilmdude]

That is exactly why I'm not episcopal.

[@jeffreyjourdonais298]

@patrickdean4853 Let God judge. Our liturgical services are no different than conservatives. I've tried the ACNA , theyre no different in my opinion.

[@patrickdean4853]

@@jeffreyjourdonais298 I guess, but (to use a comparison) if your business lost 15-20% of its customers in the last 15 years, you have cause to ask why? Homosexual clerics and female clergy. Better yet- homosexual male & female clergy😂

[@TheJm13post]

you confuse politics with theology if you think you can be an orthodox Christian in TEC. I had the misfortune of growing up in TEC and left as soon as possible as an adult. TEC is an apostate and heretical institution which is actively working against the Gospel and against the true Church. You must leave. Men like this "priest" are leading you to damnation.

[@soluscristus1]

Matt, that was a valiant effort to find a single thread that would tie this man to orthodoxy. You were very kind to him. Unfortunately, this is just the hollow carcass of a church. Normally I find something that I can say amen to in your conversations. I couldn’t in this one.

[@DavidLeatherwood1517]

Dude really said “heaven might be a great place, idk.” On that very statement alone he should not be a pastor.

[@TheJm13post]

he is part of an evil institution which is not part of the church. The Episcopal Church is evil.

[@MrPeach1]

these men just cosplay Priests they have no God given authority. They will tell you as much. But in the bible you see a group of men given actual authority seek out those men.

[@jillchristensen5093]

He may be more on board with N. T. Wright who emphasizes how God intends to redeem and renew the earth and that our ultimate destiny is not in heaven but on the New Earth.

[@DavidLeatherwood1517]

@@jillchristensen5093 That’s absolutely true! We weren’t ever meant to stay in heaven.

[@tonilynn3179]

I have appreciated this conversation very much. Matt, thank you for doing these videos.

[@nicholasshaler7442]

21:20 “We need to speak the truth in love.” That requires first speaking the Truth.

[@calebstroup6917]

I appreciate your respectful approach and his repectful response. However... The question of salvation is not a complicated question to answer for anyone who has received salvation themselves... It's literally just the plain and simple gospel... We've all sinned against the holy God's law and deserve eternal death, but we received grace from our loving Father by Him allowing His perfect Son to be the perfect sacrifice and receive the eternal punishment that we were due for our sins. If we accept the gift of Jesus paying our penalty, repent from our sins, and profess Jesus as Lord, we will be saved and our hearts will be transformed. His response to me indicates that he is not our brother in Christ as he does not understand the gospel. I hope he wakes uo and i hope the Lord uses him to reach people despite his lack of understanding.

[@AustinRasch-p2y]

Substitutionary atonement is a false made up doctrine

[@canadianamateurfilmdude]

With every question, Mark just got further and further from anything resembling Christianity. I'm Catholic, and seeing this guy speak about Christ's Church and how blatantly he is ignoring what God wants is very frustrating. This video made me have more respect for the Protestant view by showing me how much worse it COULD be..

[@Parks179-h]

25:01 I am perplexed by this statement. The defining difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, is that Protestants root gospel unity in the Gospel and not in doctrinal distinctions. To call something “silly” is interesting. I’m curious to know what this man would say those silly things are.

[@df6957]

Not wishing to put words in his mouth, but I can think of an example of a church that split because of an argument between 2 brothers (in the physical, rather than the spiritual, sense of that word) the brothers had a family feud and, as a result, eventually their whole church split... When churches split over doctrinal issues it can be very sad, but these can be understood. But the church should be bigger than a petty family feud. Does that make sense? It was certainly the idea that first came into my head when I heard Rev. Mark say that...

[@Parks179-h]

@@df6957, hey! That makes sense to me. Im reformed baptist, so I am well aware of church splits for trivial matters. My concern however, is with what he calls silly? When differences between conservative Christian’s and more liberal Christian’s like this come together, I find that those things are not all too “silly” at times. I don’t want to put words in his mouth either. I think that is noble and charitable of you. My mind is wondering, I suppose.

[@zacharycornett]

The hitler comment was interesting. Of course God's mercy is boundless, until it runs up to another one of his greatest gift - our free will. Which is why those in hell choose it, they are not sent. It's locked from the inside.

[@kmrbsc]

I look forward to your videos! You somehow make me examine my own faith and how I worship. I appreciate what you do! Thanks Matt!

[@ZachareyQuintana-qi4td]

We should not tolerate priests such as these. We must never hate them, but we must never tolerate this. He is more aligned with political liberal theology than Christian theology. He finds it a graver sin to be a gatekeeper than to be a false teacher. They is not Biblical and that is not Christlike. Christ taught that the world will hate us, and this is the reason. Because we MUST stand at the line and must never bend.

[@drpete8542]

Who is "we" here?

[@leviwilliams9601]

​@@drpete8542 Actual Christians.

[@williamwarren1153]

TEC also still has page 409 of the BCP which explains how a priest can deny Communion to congregants. My wife and I attended an Episcopal Church where this was invoked.

[@TheSoccerDon]

Wow, fascinating. I think I will stick with the LCMS. Thanks Matt.

[@cindyschabel7657]

Yes, I will stick with the LCMS also.

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

LCMS is great! I hope it continues to be an awesome fit for you and your family.

[@TheSoccerDon]

Likewise to you and your faith walk, brother. BTW, your interview with Will Weedon is an absolute classic!@@MattWhitmanTMBH

[@pipinfresh]

Though I disagree with just about everything this guy's said, I do appreciate hearing a perspective so different from my own. Even if I find It difficult to reconcile his views with what I believe to be biblical truth.

[@patrickdean4853]

That’s because he is no longer a biblical Christian. It would be an abuse of the word “Christian” to describe his opinions as such. Sorry, that “effeminate” character is exactly what he seems.

[@brucealanwilson4121]

​​@@patrickdean4853So full of Christian charity.

[@pipinfresh]

@@patrickdean4853 I agree. I was just trying to be nice about saying that.

[@AABlann]

Agreed

[@grahammccallum9592]

@@patrickdean4853 - How very ungracious you come across and how unwelcoming you are to your fellowman. That "effeminate character' you scorn has found the grace of God. You presume yourself the gatekeeper to the Kingdom of God.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

Check out my friends at the Episcopal Fellowship for Renewal, the Episcopal branch of our Reconquista movement. There are many Episcopal priests and bishops working to restore the Episcopal Church to biblical orthodoxy.

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

@@thejoshuaproject3809 uhh yes?

[@joshuatrott193]

​@@thejoshuaproject3809yes. There are continuing Anglicans holding fast

[@TheJm13post]

bro give it up and go to a real church. You have no clue what people who came before you went through before deciding to break away from apostate mainline protestant churches.

[@Sebman1113]

@@thejoshuaproject3809I think the traditional Anglican belief is big tent Christianity as long as it remains to the essentials of Christianity.

[@nicholasshaler7442]

@@thejoshuaproject3809 From the outside, I think the unifying documents of Anglicanism include the various editions of the Book of Common Prayer.

[@peterfox7663]

21:15 How does he go about "speaking the truth in love" if he also says "who am I to say what it means to be a Christian?"? His whole message is basically saying "I'm here to help people find their own truth". I'm not really sure what Jesus has to do with any of it other than Jesus being some kind of embodiment of whatever you want a higher power to be.

[@charliewoot22]

Do all Episcopal or Anglican priests believe and preach universal salvation such as this priest seems to be implying? It sounds almost as if he doesn’t believe you can ever fully reject God of your own free will. Although perhaps thats not what he meant and I am reading way too much into what was said.

[@desireegrosgebauer6526]

No, they definitely do not!

[@2Uahoj]

If Jesus wanted unity, why are there so many Christian churches today all believing different things?

[@calebneff5777]

Because they are different expressions of His one church. For those in right belief, we are unified IN Jesus.

[@2Uahoj]

@@calebneff5777 But what does it mean "right belief" when so many other Christians think that theirs is the "right belief"?

[@TheRealWilliamWhite]

​@2Uahoj because the things we disagree on largely are fairly minor (major to those on oposing sides of an issue but minor in the grand scheme of things), and we agree on the core values as put forth in the creeds.

[@df6957]

I heard this phrase when I was in college: "We are called to unity, not uniformity." I think that echoes some of the replies here. However I also like NT Wright's statement (and I am paraphrasinghere): I think that if Paul was writing to the church today he would be concerned not only with the lack of unity in the church, but with how little many care about the lack of unity.

[@EcclesiastesLiker-py5ts]

There will also be sects among you that those who are approved may be made manifest.

[@TakFyrir]

Another great interview that keeps me thinking. Thanks for your work, Matt (and everyone else making this possible)!

[@ivoryjohn]

What a lovely conversation. Thanks for giving us an example of how to be generous, kind, and caring to someone who (at the face) we may not agree with.

[@Frtemplin]

"Who am I?" Umm you're the priest. Lack of pastoral clarity and responsibility does not make better Christians.

[@lindamascioli4518]

On the topic of sin at 35:30 in the vid--.I am an Episcopalian and can attest that every Sunday we as a church together and in unison recite a confession of sin...and for those of us who are in the habit of Morning and/or Evening Prayer (a daily at home practice of reading scripture and prayers in the Book of Common Prayer) repeat this prayer asking for forgiveness of sin--the 3 letter word that seems to be a trigger for some. I am not sure what Reverend Mark was referring in this conversation...but this is the prayer said right before Eucharist: "Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against you in thought, word and deed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone. We have not loved you with our whole heart; we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves. We are truly sorry and we humbly repent. For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us and forgive us; that we may delight in your will, and walk in your ways, to the glory of your Name. Amen." Thanks for all you do, Matt!

[@nicholasshaler7442]

Catholics have a very similar prayer. I am guessing that your views are closer to the view of the average Catholic in the United States today than to Rev. Mark.

[@mkmoore8999]

To my understanding, he was not diminishing sin. Rather the response to sin being different than many evangelical positions. He seemed to hold that our sin, even amongst the greatest sinners, is finite. Yet the forgiveness of God is infinite.I don’t disagree with this position. He says that it’s just not the focus of his sermons, not that he doesn’t ever speak to the need of repentance.

[@lindamascioli4518]

Normally an Episcopal Priest presents a sermon of under 10 minutes which is a homily based upon the Lectionary...the Gospel reading so of course most Priests would not talk much on any singular topic...including 'sin'...so I found his response didn't clearly address the question Matt asked...he could have been much more succinct by simply explaining how in general acknowledgment and confession of sin is embedded within the liturgy and is made by all of the people in preparation of the the Eucharist...he could have added that the church provides for private confession and absolution to a Priest--(recognized as a sacramental gift--all may, some should, none must) and then elaborated on the various definitions of what that word might construe (the various leanings or thoughts held by the church at large)...because Episcopalians are a lively bunch with a myriad of thoughts on everything! My impression is that he must have known that he was explaining to an audience who may know nothing about how a liturgical church works or the basics of the sacraments and tradition--and a beautiful rich tradition we have!. @@mkmoore8999

[@ryanbeydlermusic2542]

I grew up in a conservative evangelical church mega church environment. I’ve been totally disillusioned with the path many have taken in that environment - I have been researching the episcopal church over the past year and really appreciate these videos. Thank you!

[@diedertspijkerboer]

I love how you let people make their own points, which often sound well reasoned out from their perspective. If we want more unity, anywhere in life, we need more of these conversations.

[@erc9468]

I am completely against unity of any kind with this sort of heresy

[@AABlann]

My goal is not to be hurtful or mean spirited, but for all his talk of "following Jesus" the conga line he is following/leading does not have Jesus at the front. He seemed earnest his feeling and perceiving a reality of the Triune God, but his words betrayed that he is not letting God be the Lord of his life. I am praying for that to change. I am thankful Mark was open and vulnerable enough to have this video discussion, and thanks to Matt for these types of thought provoking videos.

[@BunnyWatson-k1w]

At 29:36. This whole issue of divisions in a church came in Canada about 20 years ago. The Anglican Church of Canada decided the allow gay marriage and gay clergy. That led to a significant percent of national membership to leave. The Anglican church at the time had mostly small active member attendance at each congregation. The church had struggled for years and had been selling off many church buildings just to remain sustainable. Many started their own congregations, sometimes with only 20 people coming from the old congregation. I know in one case a recently ordained minister left taking 70% of his active congregation with him. They struggled, renting space in a school for services. After many years they found a church for sale and moved in.

[@Enochulator]

imagine getting your view of heaven from the talking heads...

[@supdudehowsitgoing]

My theological heroes are Thomas Cranmer, John Jewel, Nicolas Ridley, the Caroline Divines, EB Pusey, and many other old Anglicans. They would be horrified if they saw what happened to our Church. “And we thought the Romanists were bad.” It saddens me every day.

[@DreamcastFarm]

Love these videos. Keep them coming

[@latindwarf8173]

"Obviously, I'm gay." I honestly didn't even notice.

[@fr.jeremiahcaughran6191]

I was thinking that too! What are the obvious signs here? Maybe something from earlier before they started recording I guess.

[@LHJC10]

That’s pretty funny it’s one of the first things I thought in the first video. The “liberal” thing probably prepped me for the assumption. Maybe I’m just more judgey 🤷🏽

[@ethanhocking8229]

@@fr.jeremiahcaughran6191 I think he wears his wedding ring on his right hand.

[@alepine1986]

Orthodox Christians wear their wedding ring on their right hand as well.

[@3ggshe11s]

@@fr.jeremiahcaughran6191 - it was his speech mannerisms. Pretty obvious right from the start.

[@Inhumantics]

I am part of a mainline denomination which also believes that, on paper, baptism is "the way in". At the same time, I can also acknowledge that neither I nor the rules of the church are gatekeepers of God's table, nor of God's favor. So we say during Communion "let no rule of human creation" bar us from receiving Communion, "for it is Christ who invites us." If you are so moved, you partake.

[@IAMNationX]

totally agree, when i take communion if people are wanting and feel called to partake it should be embraced

[@neilstauffer3636]

Enjoyed the respectful dialogue, but there are subtleties of relativism and a humanistic framework in the language from the priest, which is characteristic of similar mainlines. Re: the part toward the end about “God’s dream”, the Bible says nothing about God’s dream being for us to live “to the fullest expression of our humanity.” Rather, our call is to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Christ. Our call is to deny the flesh and be clothed with Christ. Paul says put off the ‘old man’ and put on Christ. This is the theological crux of what’s missing in the mainlines. God is whoever or whatever you want him to be. Re: the comment about “not a lot going on in heaven”, scripture mentions a heck of a lot going on in heaven all the time, as described in Revelation.

[@Szuubs]

WhatDoesItMeanToYou Theology

[@z.l.burington1183]

This is a reasonably good primer on 'broad church' Episcopal theology, along with the earlier video. The conversation touched on "lex orandi lex credendi" with the discussion of communion and persuasion, and I believe the earlier video talked about the "three wheels" or "three legs". I wish that there had been more discussion of Incarnational Theology in regards to salvation and the historical commonality of universalism, as theologically liberal Episcopalians tend to focus on these things. But yes, what I see here is rather common to even my small church in Ohio. I wish he had followed your question about justice with a better answer, as human ideas about justice (usually equaling punishment) are not the same as God's justice (which is beyond human understanding). There can be an obsession with personal salvation in many Christian communities, but my position (and the position of many of my brothers and sisters) is that the grace of God has worked out salvation; it is our role to trust in and follow Jesus, to love God and neighbor, to repent our failings, and not to make ourselves anxious over it because God is love and God's forgiveness is so much greater than we can conceive. As the Episcopal Church collect for Good Friday says, "let the whole world see and know that things which were cast down are being raised up, and things which had grown old are being made new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection by him through all things were made, Jesus Christ our Lord". Amen.

[@MichaelOnTheTube]

Please do a follow up video! Great video

[@othnielbendavid9777]

Some people create god in their own image. Is this the true Christian faith? I’m not wasting my time.

[@turnertruckandtractor]

Great video. I came out of my chair a time or two but grateful for the perspective and repectful dialogue.

[@Tom-hd7jt]

I think this is a great video. I attend an Episcopal Church that leans much more conservative collectively but we certainly have members with different viewpoints socially, politcally & theologically. Enjoyed this dialogue very much !

[@GabrielPereira-hm1cz]

Thank God I'm catholic!

[@2Uahoj]

Yes, the only Church established directly by Jesus Christ.

[@alakazou1614]

Yeah because it’s well known that the RCC have no liberal in it🤨

[@dennissprague2572]

I’m Christian

[@GabrielPereira-hm1cz]

@@dennissprague2572 I'm glad

[@scabbydogmess]

It feels more like he's conflicted by what's happening in his tradition and less about you coming from yours I'm glad he relaxed eventually...he's a great guy

[@MattWhitmanTMBH]

I agree, he's a smart, likable gentleman.

[@TheJm13post]

he's leading little ones astray. he's part of a denomination which condones and promotes sin. You can think he's "nice" but he is evil.

[@jamesellis1190]

I’d be interested in seeing you look to some other denominations who are on the ‘liberal mainline’. Perhaps a liberal reformed minister could resonate with some of your own theology more. I’d suggest reaching out to PCUSA, ELCA maybe even Moravians.

[@williamboo9017]

For communion At least in my church/diocese CFL it comes from the BCP. As with ELCA Lutherans there is a general confession, prayer prayed before communion. Also we are supposed to be praying daily and so on and reading, marking and inwardly digesting scriptures daily and praying before worship, and doing the same. You’re actually supposed to come in a little early kneel or sit and observe the holy silence, and pray that the lessons will come in to you. It’s really quite wonderful. UNFortunately, in today’s world a lot of people don’t do that but that’s a story for another day. I wonder if the entertainment church mentality had anything to do with that. The priest will give the invitation to come to the table to receive communion for the Eucharist, which basically means Thanksgiving it’s not some evil Catholic term. Period. The invitation says that all baptized Christians are invited to come forward for communion, and then says that if they haven’t been baptized, they should cross their arms in front, signaling that they would prefer a blessing instead, the worship bulletin will also say this. This is sort of an equivalent to an alter call, but not exactly the same. Prayers are said after the service and you meet with the clergy afterwards on the way out.