some of the Neurotypical relationship patterns I had to teach my partner to unlearn

𝗔𝗻𝗮 𝗟𝘂𝗶𝘀𝗮: shop.analuisa....
And save 20% when you use my code: 𝗜𝗥𝗘𝗡𝗘𝗖𝟮𝟬
♡𝗠𝗬 𝗘𝗧𝗦𝗬 𝗦𝗛𝗢𝗣♡
Transition Techniques neurodivergent-friendly Guided Workbook
www.etsy.com/l...
Rest & Regulation Guided Workbook for Neurodivergents
www.etsy.com/l...
Discovering your Masks ADHD & Autism Workbook
www.etsy.com/l...
ADHD & Autism Uncovering Your Stims Workbook
www.etsy.com/l...
ADHD-friendly Weekly Planner · Helps with Executive Dysfunction
etsy.me/3NigpLR
☕𝗕𝘂𝘆 𝗺𝗲 𝗖𝗼𝗳𝗳𝗲𝗲: buymeacoffee.c...
♡𝗢𝗡𝗘 𝗢𝗡 𝗢𝗡𝗘 𝗖𝗢𝗔𝗖𝗛𝗜𝗡𝗚♡
🍊selfembark.com
♡𝗖𝗼𝗻𝗻𝗲𝗰𝘁 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗺𝗲♡
🌱 TikTok: / irene_selfembark
🌿 Instagram: / self_embark
♡𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝘀 𝗜 𝘂𝘀𝗲♡
rb.gy/b97awf

[@tracik1277]

I think a lot of the time people don’t just ask directly because they haven’t prepared themselves for a potential “No”.

[@er6730]

Also, they don't want to put you in the position of having to say no. That's really uncomfortable for some people.

[@TrulyAndCompletely]

I agree on both counts, which is why having rapport & understanding the other person helps. I can understand why people feel that way in engaging with someone they don't know well - either about not being prepared to hear a "no" or not wanting someone to have to say "no" bc they think it will make them uncomfortable to do so - but my hope for friendships or relationships is that both parties learn what it means to be sensitive to each other's needs, for what that means between them specifically. So like, I'm happy to redirect so someone doesn't feel rejected, and establishing that pattern so they don't have to feel afraid to ask me. Whether for intimacy, changing activities, or getting food, I feel like saying, "(I don't want to do xyz rn ➡️) not right now, but maybe when I'm [done w this task], we can [figure out what we want to do for dinner]." I haven't gotten to practice this very much, tho.

[@jclyntoledo]

Idk I hate rejection and I feel like mentally I prepare a lot for rejection 😂😭.

[@micheller3251]

One thing I also had to teach my boyfriend is that I process emotions slowly and alone. This means if I'm crying, let me cry. If I'm mad, let me think and figure out why. Don't immediately try to hug the bad emotion away or instantly solve my problem just because it makes you uncomfortable to see me struggle.

[@GRAZI1463]

I am exactlly like that and I have a mother who is a people pleaser and automaticaly think that she is the problem if you are sad or angry. It is sooo hard to balance it out. I keep telling her that I just need space and it is not her fault. But she keeps making questions and offering things. Sometimes it makes me so tired that it gets hard to speak, and she does not stop with the questions or gets angry/hurt because I am not answering. I don't have a diagnosis, tho.

[@tessarae9127]

Yesssss 🔥🔥🔥 I am the same way, never really had people who were capable of understanding my perspective as separate (instead was seen through the lens of their own projections) and basically have only learned to process things alone. But there are things other people can do to help that process, namely things that exemplify that they understand my inner experience as being possibly different from what they think my inner experience “should” be if that makes sense..

[@AyaNichelle-gi9cd]

this is a healthy practice for all kind of humans. When someone is in the process of feeling, they don't need someone coming to their "rescue" and "fix" their state of being

[@biscuitsgravycat1057]

I'm really struggling with this for my partner. She's the same way and I keep putting my uncomfortability before what she needs to process and it's frustrating. Was there any tips you gave him that was helpful so he wouldn't do that?

[@d.d.d.a.a.a.n.n.n]

@@biscuitsgravycat1057 I'm not OP, but have a similar way of processing, and honestly, my suggestion is for you to sit with your own emotions of distress when you see your partner in distress and want to jump to their rescue. Let it be okay to just observe and be nearby if they need you, but go about your business. Ask your partner if it would help for the two of you to find a signal or phrase they could use if they really do want your comfort, and are done processing their emotions on their own, because they might want both the alone time, and then some comfort from you, or they might not

[@whoreforjaneausten]

I, as an autistic person, need to learn to take things literally too, because life has taught me that people do not mean what they say and I always have to solve riddles like I have nothing better to do

[@aturner5784]

YES. Ultimately, I just feel that it's a goddamn waste of my time and energy.

[@jclyntoledo]

This is exactly why whenever I'm interacting with people that are going to stay in my life I tell them to be very clear and direct. I tell them not to use vague or ambiguous language with me bc I'm not going to analyze every convo we have I'll just ask to clarify and that makes a lot of work for me. Especially when I have to ask them like 3-5 times to clarify if they're the type to talk about stuff in a roundabout way. Eventually I end up cutting those ppl out bc I don't do complicated and that includes mental gymnastics. Trust me once you do this, things get so much better even if you end up losing ppl.

[@alllscination]

I want to, but that scares me because I know a lot of people won't say what they mean and I will end up missing vital information and may make choices based on that. But then again I may just need other people. Finding those seems really hard.

[@destyniiskywalker]

It was actually triggering to hear some of those examples, particularly the one on literalism, in that I totally relate. I'm not even sure if it's a neurodivergent thing or just plain disrespect. If I say no and someone continues to push or "interprets it as something else", I view that as a violation of consent and will NOT tolerate anyone in my life who does that. I don't think someone needs neurodivergent awareness to be understand that. Of course, neurodivergence could make us more sensitive to such.

[@luciddreams6210]

💯

[@JaneteB]

Same!! I actually feel like a mild anxiety attack coming because I’ve been trying to explain to so many people that not only is true honesty better for everyone but it is hugely manipulative to talk to people like that! Never thought it was neurodivergent, just wrong

[@luciddreams6210]

@@JaneteB it’s better for everyone except so called “vulnerable narcissists”

[@aureliusfeynman485]

It is quite enlightening, because I had a massive falling out with my parents, especially my father, specifically because of that. Very pushy, out of love and care, but still unbelievably pushy to the point of disrespect. Total disregard of other's point of view while claiming to be listening and understanding. Still somewhat picking myself up a full year later...

[@SmallSpoonBrigade]

That's my wife, although in her case she's likely ND and is definitely from a different cultural background than I am. There's been days where she'll just ask the same question repeatedly until I snap because she thinks that I'll just change my mind. She's gotten a lot better about it, but she comes from a culture where that kind of thing is more acceptable. As she puts it, I'm not god, so I don't have to stick with my word to that extent, but then she'll get upset with me if I do change my mind. Being married is tough sometimes.

[@rubycubez1103]

Once I sense Im being herded, I straight up just address it and either agree or disagree. This has taken me yrs to get comfortable doing. My mother was my first herder. My response almost feels like a response to my trauma. It feels like manipulation.

[@luciddreams6210]

It is manipulation

[@nobodynowhere21]

It is manipulation. The KZbin creator is justifying what sounds like an unhealthy relationship pattern. The Good Morning texts thing was overtly manipulative and should have terminated the relationship. Find an adult, don't raise a child.

[@veecatsu7096]

@@nobodynowhere21You do not know them, you can't just take a section from a video and assume they have an unhealthy relationship. She even made it clear this behavior had stopped and was mainly just present in the beginning.

[@tenshimoon]

​​@@veecatsu7096true you have a point, however some of us NDs are so tired of being manipulated like this that some of us just do NOT have the patience and spoons for it anymore. Many of us are just so done with unhealthy manipulative tactics that are normalised amongst neurotypicals, that it's become a red flag for us and most of us would just rather avoid people like that. Granted, her partner is also neurodivergent just like me (we're both ADHDers), but he picked up some majorly unhealthy & manipulative neurotypical communicative patterns from previous relationships with neurotypicals, that most of us either don't use or only use very sparingly when just dealing with neurotypicals, so I think that's why she was more forgiving of him and more willing to work with him on it. Because of his neurodivergence being so similar to hers (there's a reason our conditions are called neurological cousins now lol), and how it's usually easier for fellow neurodivergents to communicate with each other. Also because NDs are often more willing to meet someone halfway or work through things together than neurotypicals are (because we've literally been forced into doing that our whole lives in order to just navigate life and survive being in a neurotypical society).

[@tenshimoon]

​​@@nobodynowhere21normally I agree, it's a huge red flag for me and would make me seriously consider that the person and I are incompatible and move on, especially at the beginning of a relationship. However, given that her partner is also neurodivergent, and how similar ADHD & ASD are now known to be (MUCH more overlap than previously thought), I believe that's actually why she was more forgiving and willing to work with him on this. Speaking from experience, most neurodivergents are more willing to work on meeting others halfway and working out differences with others - just because we've been forced into doing that our whole lives just to survive a neurotypical society, so we've gotten really used to it and are better at it than neurotypicals. Given this knowledge (as a psychologist she's probably very aware of these issues), I think she decided to stay and work with him on this, knowing since he's also ND he would be much more open to working on unlearning unhealthy neurotypical patterns he was conditioned with. If the person I'm dating is a neurodivergent, I'm personally usually more forgiving of behaviours that they've either picked up from neurotypicals, or very much forgiving of behaviour that's part of being one of the neurological cousins (since I also struggle with a lot of the same traits), and much more willing to work with them on these issues than I would with a neurotypical. I'm kinda just done with neurotypicals in general

[@cocobeanzzzzz]

My mind was blown with every word you said, of course you explained it great but the hidden meanings behind neurotypical communication is so confusing, I never would have arrived at the true meaning before now. This honestly makes so much more sense as to why my past relationships were struggling because we were speaking two different languages without knowing.

[@jmaessen3531]

Ditto! I'm having aha moments about past friendships and romantic dynamics while I listen to this. And that tiktok you showed! 😮 What?? Why would they say words they don't actually mean? I have only ever understood direct. 🛸

[@tenshimoon]

Ugh same, and ofc WE get blamed for the breakdown in communication, when ALL we did was literally just BE HONEST and straightforward meanwhile they weren't and had unspoken expectations and tried to manipulate us into responding a certain way. But sure, the breakdown in communication is somehow "our" fault. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

[@SoapFloater]

I had a falling-out with friends recently because I kept telling them that ambiguity doesn't work with me and that if someone is frustrated, annoyed, upset, etc, to just straight up tell me what's wrong and why because I won't know otherwise. I also said that my brain separates critique from meanness, and being straight with me was the best way to go for any problem, tiny or huge. So yeah. A several month long problem nobody told me about boiled over, there was an argument, and I dipped. Sucks! But like.... What else can you do when you LITERALLY tell people EXACTLY how to talk to you more than once and they don't do it because of their own hangups?

[@JaneteB]

had the exact same thing happen to me, still trying hard not to blame myself because it's always on us to communicate clearly even though i did everything possible and it still blew up, hugs x

[@Taylorislife13]

This sounds super frustrating… why don’t people just say what they mean… it would save so much drama

[@SoapFloater]

@@JaneteB The way I go about my ASD (and ADHD we comorbiditing in here) is that if I feel guilty about stuff like this, I replace ASD with a different disability. "I told my friends I'm deaf, so I'll use ASL, writing, or texting instead of using my voice to talk to them. They didn't like that because they ALWAYS use their voice to speak and got frustrated with me when I couldn't hear them." Like... ya know? It's the same thing. No disability is the fault of the disabled and just because a lot of neurotypical/not disabled people don't understand that concept doesn't mean that not respecting the needs of ASD people is any less infuriating and absurd than not respecting the needs of deaf people. It's easy as that : > We'll find our people. Never mask, be yourself! That's what gets the real ones in

[@SoapFloater]

@@Taylorislife13 NO IDEA LMAOOOO I can understand a lot of weird shit neurotypicals do but this is just.... ?!?!?!? LIKE BRUH, I told you not to do that. And you did it anyways. Cuz you wouldn't like it if it wasn't done for you. HUH?????

[@PsycheTrance65]

​@@Taylorislife13 because they're afraid of the consequences/confrontation a direct conversation would have. it feels much safer for them to be passive-aggressive or cryptic because they can simply double back to "what do you mean? i'm not mad." etc. if it doesnt go the way they want

[@lo-fidreamsASMR]

That TikTok hinting trend is at the root of all of my social challenges. It even connects to those “projection of envy compliments” NTs sometimes give, where they’re actually signalling envy, like “I love that shirt on you!” = “I’m envious that she looks good today”. My Autistic self has only ever complimented ppl when I mean it, otherwise I don’t say anything. But because NTs and allistics speak so covertly, I’ve found that my literal authentic compliments have gotten sideyed and ppl were getting offended because they thought I was insulting them. Like whatttt 😭 Took me decades to learn that this was even happening.

[@markigirl2757]

Yeah people that that I come to realize what an excuse to be rude or want drama. I know right away I won’t be their friends and I’ll full stop interact with them unless necessary bc I could care less about their needs

[@tenshimoon]

I'm totally the same way, I have always tended to speak very authentically and often literally (though not always) but am not Autistic (a different neurodivergence). But yeah I get SO frustrated with this, like SO many times I've said things that are meant literally/authentically, only to find out later from some viral social media post that saying those things are apparently "red flags" for NTs because apparently when NTs say them, they're lying/faking it in some way. It's so manipulative and makes people like us have such a hard time with communicating clearly and honestly because NTs will then assume we're speaking exactly like them and see our honesty as a "red flag"... Case in point: saying "I hate drama" - apparently to NTs it's a red flag to claim you hate drama, because that apparently means you're a drama queen/starter or you somehow thrive in it. I've said to NTs every once in a while how i can't stand drama, then one day i see a hit tweet going "if they say they hate drama, they LYING" or something to that affect. 🙄 Like no, I literally mean i can't stand drama and WILL avoid people who cause it at all costs. But i can't say that anymore because the neurotypicals are typically dishonest and assume everyone else is just as dishonest as them. What a way to announce you're dishonest by expecting others to be just as dishonest as you. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@O-Demi]

Even worse, some people think I'm coming onto them/the person I'm complimenting when I say something nice to a person, which is another pile of garbage of people assuming your sexuality out of the blue (when you've learned to never assume anyone's sexuality, NEVER)

[@tenshimoon]

@O-Demi oh hello are you on the asexual/aromantic spectrum too? That's a common experience for us so just wondering lol

[@haniyyahn]

I give explanation/disclaimers around comments like this and throughout my life, I think as I know from experience that what I may think of as a simple, literal statement will not be taken as such by NTs. So l haven't stopped giving compliments (as it's authentic expression for me and I can tell brings a little sunshine to others). I'll just say "I'm not coming onto to you..." or I am specific about what I like about their looks and ask questions because the envy comments tend to be general. I think generally NT comments that are open for interpretation are general. When you are specific like "I love your hair. It really sets off your eyes. How did you get the detailed color variation?" then it is clear(er) that is genuine appreciation or interest.

[@chloe2264]

This was really interesting. I never thought about it in these terms, I say straight up I don't do mind games, just be honest with me and don't sugar coat things. I don't want to play guessing games, just be direct in a kind way and we're all good. People are usually relieved to hear that and find it really refreshing that I don't play mind games, but then they still did... I finally found someone that gets me (which I was seriously doubting would ever happen) and our communication is amazing! He's so easy to be around and I feel completely comfortable and safe being me. I'm honestly amazed. For those of you that are totally frustrated, you could find someone when you least expect it! Good luck!

[@binesart]

Wow, you put that great and give hope 🎉

[@AdalWolfaAdele]

i cried watching this. i didn’t even know or recognize why i had these relationship patterns. i told my friends that i never realize how autistic i am until i watch your videos lol thank you for sharing. i thought i understood social stuff through my years of masking, but i guess not. thank you thank you thank you.

[@briangonsalez2173]

Same.

[@PIPFinalFilmProject]

I've never been in a relationship, but the "herding" mentality of the people I was interested in romantically were often the cause of situationships ending. Case in point: had been flirting pretty extensively with a coworker for months, but he would try to guide the conversation in a way to meet his needs, without speaking clearly. Finally disengaged when i realized (after the third time of him bringing it up with no prompting in my presence) the fact that he would "kill for a girl who would pack him a lunch." He did not ask, just expectected me to comply. The worst part is I made him food a month before of my own volition that he never touched! All that is to say, i find it a testament to you and your partner's maturity, to be able to work on these issues in a talking stage and continuously grow together as a couple, because a lot of people never unlearn "herding," even some ND people who picked up the habit from masking. This is only sort of related, but writing this all down made me realize I would LOVE to hear your perspective on autism and aging/real maturity/perceived maturity! Thank you for all of your insight, as usual. ❤

[@Zectifin]

that shouldn't even be considered a normal thing in neurotypical relationships. thats just manipulative.

[@prongs4137]

I had a thought. I'd like my fellow NDs to weigh in on this. So from my experience with NTs and becoming adept at communicating with them(at the expense of my own burnouts), I think after watching this an NT might think "where's the fun in such a straightforward relationship? Where's the banter?" To that I would like to tell them: Have you noticed how some ppl who have just come out of an abusive/manipulative relationship tend to initially find healthy relationships boring because they haven't healed from the toxic patterns programmed into their psyche during the toxic relationship? Yeah so because you(allistics) are so used to such roundabout communication you think the literal straightforward way austictic NDs communicate is "boring" or without banter/fun. Its just peaceful n healthier. Even for NTs. Way less everyday stress you didn't even know you were unnecessarily living with.

[@ThatSpazamataz]

Allistic person here. Completely agree with everything you say. Although I will add that I think most allistic people when they would say something like “where’s the fun in that where’s the banter?” They would actually be joking. Even the ones who are subconsciously ending up in traumatic relationships because that is what feels like love to them probably still at a less emotional level understand it isn’t healthy. I would also add that you can absolutely have a relationship where important conversations are literal and words are spoken with honesty and taken at face value by one’s partner (including just affirming statements such as “are you having fun/are you okay/etc?” “Yes I am” without saying stuff like “but you don’t look like you are having fun/are okay/etc???” Something I am still trying to unlearn). But at other times have jokes/sarcasm/banter when the stakes of a misunderstanding are lowe. I mean watching love on the spectrum alone should make it clear to anyone that autistic people also love playful banter in dating.

[@jmaessen3531]

Good points! And I think with direct communications there is plenty of spice in the... - Deep dive info dumps - Detailed questions I ask when a loved one shares their own info dumps - The philosophical rabbit holes we can go down together - Word play or puns that arise There are all sorts of healthy fun conversations to be had! I shut down when I'm being herded. Because I struggle to trust and it's flat out confusing. So that's when I'll be the most boring loved one ever! Ha

[@tpk1412]

would like to add that ND ppl can also banter a ton - with each other. we just dont do it in the same ways/situations as NT ppl. its interpreted as us not enjoying banter at all, when really we just dont usually engage in it during the same moments

[@Heyu7her3]

Eh, there's nuance. I do think many of us are capable of romance, flirtation, innuendo, etc. Also, autistic people tend to be much more straightforward, whereas the rejection sensitivity found in ADHD can cause them to take offense. Those with both typically battle between these dynamics.

[@spacebar9733]

An addiction to stress.

[@prarthanarajan1152]

I understand and like the concept of parallel play too! It's fine to need someone near you but not actively interacting with you because you are both pursuing you own personal enjoyment.😊

[@kataratify]

It's so nice to finally have a phrase to describe this! I didn't know it was a thing that had a term, but it's something I do frequently.

[@TarahAlexandria]

So do my husband and I. Were both autistic.

[@gypsileydi6412]

It is very fortunate for you that you have your psychology background to be able to clearly see the unhealthy behavior he needed to unlearn, and you were strong enough to put your foot down about it and know you deserved to be treated better than that. Communication is key for everyone.

[@DragonKeeper69]

I never understood why "herding" would really upset me. My best friend can cross this boundary a lot and it always results in arguments. I feel like I've been having trouble explaining to them why it upsets me. Herding is such a great word for it.

[@StillGamingTM]

It always feels manipulative to me even if there is no malicious intent. I try to assume the best and consider they just don’t know how else to communicate their needs and wishes. It’s difficult though. It can make you wonder if they think you’re too dumb to even notice what they’re doing, which would be insulting. I’d prefer open, direct but also polite communication but it’s an unfortunate fact that not everyone is able to do that/it’s not a viable option in all situations

[@parodoxis]

I feel like the reality is that some neurotypical people *are* not smart enough to know what they're doing, nor to put the complexity of their feelings and needs into accurate words if asked directly... so this strategy works on them and then just becomes a one size fits all approach for everyone, as the neurotypical people who do know what's going on will just respond to the actual intention directly like in the tiktok video.

[@Catlily5]

Many neurotypical people are smart. Playing all those mind games takes a lot of brainpower. I think saying that neurotypical people aren't smart is the reverse of when they say we aren't smart because we are autistic. We can both be smart we just don't understand eachother. I don't understand neurotypicals so most of my friends and my boyfriend are neurodivergent as well.

[@coversine479]

I think the reason herding is so prevalent is because direct communication feels very confrontational for most neurotypical people. Expressing needs directly takes too much energy, because it can result in rejection. So herding is a mechanism to avoid the mental drain of an awkward situation and creating conflict. Obviously it creates many problems, but I think it's a coping mechanism to avoid a "trigger" type situation between neurotypical people, just like neurodivergent people have specific triggers

[@APerson-tq1zg]

​@@coversine479 I would agree with this. Neurotypical thinkers get drained by too much confrontational speech.

[@gianniclaud]

I can absolutely relate to this. I ended up breaking up with my partner because he couldn't stop herding my attention to things I didn't want to pay attention to, and every time I spoke up - I felt as if he was deliberately contrarian in order to command the flow of things. Absolutely frustrating. He's, for sure, undiagnosed ADHD because every time we were in really populated areas - he could not focus, let alone see how miserable I was trying to keep my center from him.

[@unrulycrow6299]

One of my closest friends in diagnosed with ADHD and I 100% call him out on that now because holy fuck bro, do I dislike having my energy vampirised like that.

[@luciddreams6210]

😮 yes this is totally a thing with ADHD.

[@THE-NEA]

Wooow, I feel this with my big sister! And she also have ADHD. It really eats all my energy up :(

[@black-nails]

Sorry, could you give an example of that herding attention to something? I'm not sure if I myself have that behaviour and because no one else has commented on it, it's hard to recognize 🥲

[@gianniclaud]

@@black-nails It's as simple as commanding the conversation throughout most of the duration, instead of allowing space for others to be heard. Like having little to no awareness of the imbalance of a social exchange - kind of like how narcissists, in general, herd attention. It's very suffocating to be around.

[@RuthMcDougal]

I hate hate hate herding behavior. I’m “too” direct according to my partner though. So if I ask him for or express why I expected certain behaviors. That can trigger my partner’s demand avoidance! It’s tough to unlearn behaviors if you are in any kind of interabled relationship. For both/all parties involved.

[@alessazoe]

haha, I think there are a lot of patterns that can be active in conversations. I think my partner and me are generally better at just being honest and literal with each other, but sometimes I still catch him in weird dialogues. typically, it’s a not problem of relationship communication bs, but him not answering my actual question. instead, he answers something else, but doesn’t tell me, so I learned to figure it out with follow-up questions. the classic example is me asking whether he’s hungry, he answers "no", but with more questioning I find out he actually IS hungry, but answered a question like "would you please help me cook something right now?" in his head. still working on teaching him to simply answer with some more words, since it’s so much easier to get an answer like "I’m hungry, but I don’t have it in me to put something fancy together now." then it’s still up to me to give suggestions from having a lazy meal like bread or saying I want to have something fancy and I’ll prepare it alone then, np.

[@christinesizemore3]

Oops, shit. I'm the ND one but actually also the one guilty of some of these. Mine comes from a place of feeling unworthy and not wanting to inconvenience anyone. I'm often asking "permission" to get or do things I want, but in a very timid way, and it starts to look like herding or non-straightforward communication. Parallel play though? Heck yes!! I'll often wander into my partner's office while they're working and they'll be like, "I'm busy." Me: "I know, I won't bother you." If I'm not told to leave, they'll be asking me what's up and did I want something right now... Nope. I just wanted to sit on the floor near your desk and chill. I did manage to set up a big floofy blanket in there to nap on once. It's still sitting there under the window, a nice soft spot to sit when I'm not doing chores and they're not in a meeting. (I'll voluntarily leave for those - live webcam and hot mic!)

[@katieayoub7842]

This is so relatable. I’m sending it to my husband so he can understand me better. Thank you.

[@PatchworkDragon]

My husband and I have taken to shouting "It's a CLUE!" (a la Blue's Clues) if we say something with a hidden meaning, like in that tictoc.

[@Dahlia_Kaitlyn]

This made me think of this guy I was dating a while back. He was really not great at being upfront and also pretty shitty about making time for me (separate issues but related in this particular story)- he told me that he was hanging out with a new female friend which upset me because he never made an effort to do things like that (what they were doing) with me, so I was basically like, idc who you hang out with bc we aren't a couple but I don't need to hear the details... and he was like oh are you jealous lol (as if he were happy to know that), and I was like yes, but if your intention was to make me jealous to confirm if I like you this isn't going to work, you need to be upfront or I'm going to cut this shit off. He was completely taken aback... I was so confused and upset because why would you try to make me jealous? Why can't you just be explicit about what you want and how you feel? Which I guess is where that discrepancy of literal vs implied communication butt heads. I am a very literal person so if I tell you I like you I mean it 100%, but a lot of guys don't believe me because at the same time, I'm not very verbally or physically affectionate otherwise, especially at the beginning stages of dating... so they think I'm not interested. But for me, I'm like if I am making time and effort to be around you, and I tell you I like you- I mean those things. I am a horrible liar lmao

[@jimwilliams3816]

I am going to express some discomfort with some of what you said, so it is okay if you don't want to read on. My intent is to be respectful, but I'm a bit triggered, so full disclosure, some of that will probably leak through. Something IS up with me, but I think I still want to try and say it. The texting example is a tough one for me. I got "herding" as a concept right away, and it feels an element in the difficulties that my wife and I are having these days -- we have been together a long time, but I have really slid in recent years, and at this point both our nervous systems are easily dysregulated. I am recently diagnosed AuDHD (and GAD), and we are starting to suspect that she is autistic as well. We have never been good communicators, and I'd say we can both engage in herding behaviors. The difficulty for me lies, when asking for someone to change their behavior, in determining who is herding who. It's reasonable to ask for things, obviously better to ask for them directly, but I have done this many times and I don't think everything I've asked for is always reasonable. I feel like overt herding is possible, and I do it much too much. The part where you talk about becoming confused about the missing text, and thinking something is clearly up, because this is something that happens to people on the spectrum -- that makes sense to me. Both my wife and I can have that problem, though I have given her reasons to be jumpy about that, and she can give me reasons too. The great point of conflict is: if one of us thinks something's up with the other, are we right? There are times when I feel sure that something is up, but she says nothing is. I am generally in an amygdala-driven state at those times, searching for the tiger in the bushes, and I think my head can be be absolutely certain that something is up even if nothing is. It's very hard to fight that sense of certainty. At the same time, I have this sense that my wife thinks "I'm fine" is a compassionate and reassuring thing to say, true or not, and I agree with you that saying "I'm okay" when you're not is not helpful -- I think for either of us, though I am more willing to share that I'm not in a good space, and I concede that doing that a lot has drawbacks for her. Sometimes she appreciates me telling her, but me telling her that all the time becomes stressful. And she can also think that something's up with me when I think it isn't. With either of us, the question becomes: IS something up with the other? If we think so, and the other doesn't, is it that A) we're wrong, nothing's up, it's the hypervigilance talking; B) we're right, and the other is stressed but not aware, or C) we're right, and the other is pretending to be okay...putting on an act, or lying? My amygdala can easily choose "lying," and when I listened to that, I created a world of pain for both of us. I do better now, partly ADHD meds make my prefrontal cortex better able to hold its own -- but the amygdala is still designed to shut the PFC down as needed, so it can be very hard in the moment not to be SURE that there's a problem, so staying out of B/C can be very hard. And either of us is afraid to pick A, because sometimes it turns out it was B, and that gets confirmed soon after when someone melts down. I think both of us mask our rising discomfort, to others and ourselves. We either don't notice we're fine, or think we can handle it, until we can't. That was my modus operandi for decades. So I'll acknowledge that I had to stop at 8:41, because I'm feeling triggered. It may be you go on to explain that your boyfriend realized you were right and that something was up with him, that it was what you thought it was, and that he was engaging in that herding behavior. It's good for him to know that establishing a routine then stopping can create issues for you, and this needs to be a matter of communication and cooperation, not establishing blame. But at the timestamp, you hadn't yet given any indication of knowledge that you were objectively right about what was going on, beyond your sense that this is what the deal was -- and I am sensitive to that, in part because I can and have told my wife "this is what's going on with you," and she does not like it, and I recognize it as a bad trait of mine that I really have to try and unlearn, and have been trying. So it's all horribly confusing and fraught, and in no way should I be suggesting I know how to deal with this stuff. But these are the issues I'm dealing with, and part of my problem is that, if I don't play devil's advocate with myself, I can become a very judgmental, black and white thinker. I have also let playing devil's advocate cause me to gaslight myself. I cannot seem to tell the difference, and this is one reason I now feel that I have both alexithymia and, yes, something like theory of mind issues. Postscript: some of the comments said this much more succinctly than I did, thanks. Some comments REALLY triggered me. It always bothers me a bit when people on the spectrum ask for neurotypical people to understand that certain things are hard for us, and that we don't do various things because we intend to, or even have a choice -- then turn around and sound like it's really easy for neurotypical people to do whatever we think they should, or that they are just being jerks if they don't. It fails the Golden Rule test for me. Everybody struggles with stuff, and being certified NT doesn't mean everything you do is intentional and for your own benefit anymore than being ND does. Irrational and self-destructive behaviors know no bounds, and behaviors are all rooted in our individual neurobiology. All any of us can do is try to be better; perfect is off the table for all of us.

[@oz4648]

later on in the video irene said that taking people at face value (ex: if someone says they are fine, then believe they are fine) is helpful. I feel like this can help cut through the uncertainty you are experiencing. It does require everyone to be upfront which can be difficult, but speaking personally, taking people at their word helps everyone. It's a good conversation to have, and everyone be on board with (it would be difficult if one person was taking the other at their word and the other person was operating on mixed signals/trying to decided what something "REALLY means"). I understand your feeling, I felt that too and had to think about it. I wonder if there was more context that had to be edited down. But I think having everyone agree to take people at face value and encourage upfrontness can help these sort of situations. If someone says they were fine, and later realize they weren't or were still processing, it doesn't become the other person's fault for not reading their mind. It just becomes an opportunity to talk about the issue.

[@Taylorislife13]

I learned about my own autism after watching my partner go into autistic meltdown/ shut down. Since then I’ve been working on creating healthy strategies like you describe here “clear communication,” “communicating before a shutdown and then transitioning into care and support.”as well as dropping the mask and taking care of our sensory needs My partner does not want to have autism or learn anything about himself in this way…. Which is very hard because when I try and communicate my support needs and how I want to be treated, he feels annoyed and burdened by taking care of my support needs because his are so neglected. I’m frustrated because I feel we could learn how to coregulate and work together, but his refusal to accept his own autism and support needs is preventing him to being present in this way for me

[@Heyu7her3]

An inability to seek or accept help is a huge relationship issue.

[@cloiaofall]

You are completely not alone in this experience. This is not a sustainable situation, but with having compassion and time and acceptance it can improve. You can’t control whether he takes initiative to be compassionate for himself or accept himself, but it’s very kind that you seem encouraging and supportive with that progress. He’ll have to get there eventually, both for himself and your relationship.

[@spacebar9733]

​​@@cloiaofall I don't feel like we should be encouraging this. the woman doing all of the emotional labor yet again. He's a grown man 😭. It shouldnt be her job for him to want to want to be better. And she's doing the right thing because it's kind ???, at the expense of her own mental health. Like stated previously this isn't sustainable and she'll just be drained. The endgoal should be happiness, not a relationship.

[@cloiaofall]

@@spacebar9733 I’m not encouraging their self sacrifice, I’m commending their kindness. Of course it isn’t their responsibility to compensate for the partner’s circumstances. Relationships aren’t just continue when easy & leave when unequal- it’s finding that balance again after being thrown off. The partner who is lacking due to his shortcomings is fully responsible for them, whether he realizes this or not. I’m not attempting to encourage or discourage the commenter to stay in this relationship, but their effort is not something to regret. Compassion doesn’t equal permission- understanding isn’t excusing. Dear original commenter, if you are concerned about your emotional energy and labor as this fellow replier is referencing, do make sure to take care of yourself. Prioritize your own health and needs separately from your partner, and let him know if he impedes on that process. It’s not my place to tell you what to do or not in your situation, but make sure to have patience with yourself. Much love, and I wish the best for you all.

[@greedbun]

this all hit home so much!!! i've had to master the art of reading people, that was how i survived my emotionally unstable mother growing up, (who did not communicate at all and i had to guess what she wanted from me). And now that i don't have to live like that, it's a rough one to unlearn. i am trying to break away from people pleasing because that's not a great way to live life, and also it burnt me out and would lead to meltdowns. i'm finding that neurotypical people's behavior just straight up annoys the hell out of me these days. it makes it hard to make friends into adulthood because most people do not communicate and want you to take hints. and i actively avoid people like that because otherwise i'm "too blunt". like. no. you just don't know how to be honest with people. in order to be my friend or significant other, we need to communicate directly and honestly. otherwise, i am too exhausted from this life to deal with people who don't want to or who are incapable of doing that.

[@APerson-tq1zg]

❤ I can relate.

[@WordsPictures997]

This was sooo good! Thank you so much for doing this Irene and please thank your boyfriend for being open to letting you share these lessons from your relationship.

[@Hawthorn6852]

The whole topic of herding really explained a lot for me. I knew neurotypicals did this but having it expalined in this way made me realize just how much it's happened in previous interations with so many other people.

[@almetas_grandbaby]

Yesss, I have friends that herd me and I distance myself.

[@b9394toulouse]

This video is making me realize that I don’t like these behaviors but I also unconsciously do this because I’m afraid of kind of “rocking the boat” as if I am trying to be neurotypical bc that’s how my interactions with people in my family worked, like things that I said with flat affect or trying to ask for clarifying questions with stuff like herding would just be treated with SUCH an extreme reaction (to me at least) just taught me to shut down any questions I had and just kinda go with the flow people pleasing-wise

[@luciddreams6210]

I think that’s called masking

[@kristinam94]

I was really triggered by the herding example. I had a similar experience, but I was the one starting the conversations with my ex most mornings (if I wasn't texting first, we weren't talking that day), and one morning while commuting to work I was so much into a book I was reading and wanted to spend first hours quietly "by myself" reading (I was in my reading mode), that I just forgot to text her. She started texting with "are you ok?". Similar conversation: " yes, why?" - "well, you haven't texted me first." - "oh, I was just reading." And then it went downhill: "so now I need to be the one who texts first now" and so one, blaming me for something. In less than half an hour we broke up, just by the time I got to work, and I went into the shutdown with enormous anxiety after being blamed for something/everything, and sometime after, after a couple of threats to hurt me, I blocked her everywhere. You may find my situation not being the same, but actually, it is, as communication works both ways, and you can't get angry at a person for something that you decided for and by yourself and never discussed or agreed upon with another person. If you like to be texted every single morning, and a person doing this for some time, you can express that you like it and agree that they will be doing this. Here you are not communicating, overthinking yourself to point of anxiety (this happens, it's fine), and then putting full blame on another person (and this is definitely not fine). For context, I am AuDHDer, and my ex has bipolar, so both are neurotypical. I do what I want/feel like doing, but if you expect something from me, you need to be CLEAR with me, not just with yourself about YOUR expectations and the rules that YOU are putting for US as a couple.

[@digitaldina]

I think what happens with certain people (possibly or particularly neuro typical people) is that they'll drop the routine of how they usually speak to you at random based on mood, and are curious to see how another would respond (Rather than expecting a exchange to go a certain way from the jump, they'll look for how different like inputs give different responses form a person to better understand your relationship or how someone feels, since society teaches people to not be straight up out of fear of probably rejection to a request) definitely a great topic and a learning curve for all relationships when it comes with certain traits that come with being neurodivergent.

[@elizabethivy1337]

This video is so helpful. All of the patterns you've described here were a huge source of frustration for me in past relationships. I always assumed I was in the wrong for feeling upset or bothered by these behaviors, so I would try to push forward and act 'appropriately' according to NT expectation. It never worked or made the negative feeling go away, but I didn't understand the underlying dynamic that was the source of these issues.

[@IslanderT]

As I have been in therapy, I have learned that it is healthier to do all these things and that these accepted alistic behaviors fo more harm than good in all relationships. Many relationships end due to couples not clearly communicating their needs and assuming the other can read minds

[@aureliusfeynman485]

Officialy, I'm ADHD but not diagnosed ASD. However, I feel like I might've been AuDHD all along and quite probably with giftedness. I was diagnosed ADHD later at 23, by my own initiative because I knew something was amiss. I've never felt it was a proper assesment though and it has been 12 years now. So much progress has been done in terms of understanding these neurological conditions. What you are saying in this video is very similar to how I view (and prefer) communication. Glad to have come accross your channel, will listen to your videos a lot I think!

[@calliope6623]

Thank you. I have often felt obligated to perform indirect communication. It doesn't work, and it's too much trouble anyway.

[@haybails4876]

Would love a part 2 please!! I would also love a video on how to protect yourself while dating, especially while dating NT people. I have gotten into many situations that led to me getting taken advantage of or embarrassed me cause I didn't understand someone's intentions. And as someone who is Audhd, enby, queer, ace and who is open to dating queer or straight, ND or NT, I find all these groups have their own social cues and intentions that are so confusing. No one is straight up and no one takes me literally 😭

[@biansap9886]

“sometimes neurotypicals get so used to indirect communication that a true meaning of an action can get lost” BOY i had flatmates that were clearly upset with me about something but everytime i asked them whats up they wouldnt tell me because to them things like “how are you” is just a greeting and not an actual question. HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO TALK TO ANYONE AHAHAHAHHAHAH

[@RebeccaEd]

Regarding herding: do you find it frustrating also in conversations - like if someone says "SOMETHING SO FUNNY HAPPENED TODAY" and they wait for you to say "WHAT HAPPENED?" I really dislike this but I also feel rude for disliking it. JUST TELL ME. It's like forcing a script on me? I've several times been told "this is when you ask what happened" (or similar), because I either don't notice I "should" say that thing to make it move forward, or because I just don't play along because I think the person should continue.

[@aprilmeowmeow]

bahaha, I've always felt like such an asshole for getting annoyed with the "guess what I did" etc shit... I try to humor them, because I know they are just trying to share something they're excited about while also like, diminishing the chance of social rejection (by admitting directly that they want to share something with me or whatever, lol)... My husband has learned to make "guess what" the start of his sentence, vs a question. He always tells me what's what immediately after 😅

[@keicoffman1508]

An ex-friend got sick of me for launching into stories instead of doing all this song and dance first. She literally scripted out what she WANTED me to say and it was what you wrote. Mind-boggling.

[@samiam369]

Yes please to Part 2! Thank you so much for making this video, it’s super helpful as a man who is recently diagnosed with ADHD (and starting to wonder if I’m autistic as well) and developing a relationship with a woman who also recently figured out she is AuDHD. I would love to know more about what your partner does that is helpful to co-regulate you when you are nearing or in breakdown/meltdown, if you’re willing to share. Thank you for your videos, they have truly shifted my perspective on our interactions. We've both been really frustrated and hurt because I kept trying to interpret her behaviors through my lens. I realized just how important it is to remember her neurodivergence and learn what it means for her and how she expresses herself and experiences life, and to see her behaviors through her lens instead of mine.

[@chomkybean]

For me (audhd) it was the video game example that was relatable because I've had that literal conversation of: are you okay with us doing separate things because I can turn my game off if you want. And then telling my partner (both of us suspect some neurodivergency) that no it's ok you're not boring me keep doing you haha. The other one was about being literal. We've both established that when we say things there isn't a hidden message, but I haven't often experienced him being more neutral so when he is, I end up interpreting that as him being mean or annoyed. I feel bad about that and I try to not read into it when he speaks more flat/monotone and not as facially expressive as I'm used to him being.

[@marixlife]

I’ve been waiting for this one! I’ve experienced all of this, can’t wait for the part 2 because it’ll probably be all of my other experiences too 😅

[@tlamelangmasemola]

This is soooo insanely helpful. You have just put into words my major hurdles in relationships ( romantic and platonic tbh), especially the herding part and not being taken literally it's so exhausting cause it's so clear that they want they're needs met in some way but when you ask they'll say no everything is okay when it's clearly not, like i really have no problem meeting those needs i just need to know what they are. And i truly truly cannot stand when someone tries to find some underlying message in what I'm saying when there literally never is one and I've told them before that I'm a very literal and direct person. And i haven't had the patience to stick around and teach someone these things, i would just get very distressed and frustrated and end things( in romantic situations) or just accept that we're probably only going to have a casual friendship ( in platonic situations)cause i was never able to verbalise these problems as well as you just did in this video so thank you sm for this! Would definitely appreciate a part 2

[@nandavalenti]

I feel like to date successfully as a neurodivergent person you need to relearn everything and like actually study. 🤓 I'm trying dating again after years of being too overwhelmed to even try and I feel like now I'm more prepared, in theory, but in practice it's so difficult. I wish I could express this better to the people I'm dating but it's difficult to know what even I'm feeling most of the time. 😵‍💫

[@Hoepotheis]

This was really relatable for me and you've put some things into words that I haven't been able to. I want to show this video to my partner tbh. Thank you for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

[@americanasgrandson]

Thank you for seeing you and organizing this to share with us. 🌻

[@coreyesckelson8419]

Where have you been all my life?? 😭😭😭 me and my ex were both freshly diagnosed with autism when we first started dating and it was a nightmare trying to figure out how to get the relationship to work. I have PDA and can be over empathic and they were the opposite- I wish I could go back to them and tell them everything I’ve been learning from your channel and say sorry for how things ended…..

[@carriecarrie5285]

Irene, I can relate to your examples. Both my husband and I are neurodivergent. I have ADHD and OCD. He is autistic and I suspect has ADHD but he hasn’t been tested for that. Our neurodivergent quirks do not always play well together. The way you described how you communicate and your reactions reminds me so much of him. Yes, I would like a part 2.

[@consuelonavarrohidalgo5334]

Part 2, please. It helped me with my co-workers relationships.

[@lunabernhardt7680]

my partner loves to go to clubs to dance, but I like enjoying myself by standing still and listening to the music and looking at the visuals, dancing doesn't come naturally to me. I don't show my enjoyment on my face either. I also have flat feet, so I tend to just sit down too. Im always aware of how im coming off, but thats just how I enjoy myself.

[@VantheKeyofLain]

A lot of this sounds very on par for me. I hate herding, it really messes me up. However if Im gonna be asked to do something directly I also need a time buffer of at least a day in order to restructure my brain to go 'Okay I need to do this on this day. Got it.' The Literary thing too. Just a lot of this. Me and my hubby refer to Parallel Play as Same Room Energy. Its great because we both can be doing things we enjoy, but still have the comfort of each other in the same room. Every so often, he will just reach over and give me a little touch or squeeze just to give me a nonverbal check and ill usually 'meow' or make a happy noise back and then we will go back to doing our things. Its crazy how rejuvenating it can actually be. Love your videos. They help me feel better about myself.

[@Iloveminkatt]

I can relate to this 100%. Thank you for this video!!! I never realised how important this is until now! My ex and I ended up breaking up because of this. He never wanted to unlearn his behaviour and it was just impossible to keep dating. My new boyfriend also have autism and we both have much an easier time communicating and avoiding misunderstandings! :D

[@theedgeofoblivious]

I didn't even know that herding was a thing.

[@thethoughtspot222]

Took me a few years to find a way to express how this feels and find a word for it

[@theedgeofoblivious]

@@thethoughtspot222 I didn't understand that that behavior was an actual thing. I remember someone doing that to me once, intentionally trying to get me to do something without coming out and saying it, and I completely missed it until just by coincidence at the last second I changed my mind and did the thing she had wanted. I hadn't realized that she had been doing that until later in the day I was looking back and noticed that everything in the conversation we'd been having at that time had been kind of directing me to that one thing. I didn't realize that that was something people did until seeing it described in your video. I appreciate it, because at least I'll have some awareness of it now.

[@dukenukem8381]

I will save you time 2:52 herding (inderect communications ) 10:00 flat affect 13:35 Taking literally 16:00 parralel play 17:00 taking meltdowns literally

[@Hs5ab]

This is the biggest problem my partner and I have the herding thing. My partner created this tug of war when he just stoped texting to see if I would "step up" then he wouldn't admit to hurding me.

[@kataratify]

Herding is so so so ... frustrating. Just be upfront with what you need/want me to do. Why is that so difficult? Same with the not really saying what you're needs are and dancing around the topic. How does this help anyone?? (new friends i make i will eventually get to a point to explain that if you need something from me, ask and take me literally when i say something)

[@thepanda9782]

The taco bell example really frustrates me too! I display the same way but the motives are totally different for me!!!! My executive dysfunction causes decision paralysis, and alexithymia makes it hard to know what I want/feel. My partner and I are both Autistic (I also have ADHD) and in the beginning of this pattern he would get frustrated (due to previous NT relationship experiences) and say "Just tell me what you want. I'm not picky, we can go wherever you want." This was kinda overwhelming and triggering bc he assumed I was lying or trying to herd ~ at first I would kinda shut down & just be like "I don't know what I want, let's just eat what you want to eat." ~ which would incite more conflict bc he thought I was being passive aggressive. In later discussions I would explain "I don't know what I want truly! It's hard to tell what I'm feeling & I need help deciding. I need prompting to internalize each option individually because its getting all jumbled in my head. I'm not trying to be difficult or manipulative." A lot of conversations around trust were like this, including with consent. He was very anxious about getting continuous consent ~ which is great in some ways but would become difficult when I had already said yes ~ and I tend to struggle with verbal language due to the sensory intensity. Plus again, felt like he wasn't believing my clear "YES, I want this." and so I felt like I was being labelled a liar (even though that wasn't his intention). It's better now that we've talked about it & the trauma in previous relationships that caused some anxious, passive aggressive, and shutdown behaviours. It's still difficult for him to accommodate my ADHD at times, but he is always willing to work with me to change our systems/routines/environment to make it work. It is very healing to be in a relationship where I can have a meltdown or shutdown & get the support I need.

[@erinromanchik9459]

Thank you so much for putting this video together! I’m NT and my husband is ND, and this helped me understand his needs much better. I have a lot to unlearn and I’m grateful to know how I can improve.

[@BenVeenstra]

Part 2. Please do make part 2 😮 I have ADHD and my partner had autism. Sooo, this made a few things clear! I would actually be very interested in how you (I assume) have learned things specifically to him and ADHD that can help him. What behavior you changed or learned that aid in your relationship to deal with those issues together with your autism. What he needed from you when for example (I take this out of my own life) he has hyperfocus and needs to snap out of it. For me personally this is not always possible and can cause difficult situations. Can you relate? I'm incredibly curious to hear your take on this. Please keep up with these videos!

[@简澜]

I feel my tutor doesn’t like me to be in his class huh. Cause I ask a lot dumb questions and don’t find other classmates for help. He basically want me out by annoys me and does not answer the questions. And he value teamwork a lot (probably because working in team is easier to marking), he doesn’t tell you to work with others, he imposes his own rule that every member of the group have to finish their own work in order to get marks.(it’s not in the subject outline at all), he basically makes me tutoring the other guys to fulfill his own delusion of united team. I am not angry with the tutoring, it’s just why can’t you just say what you want me to do, it’s like he’s doing in this way so I have no choice of saying no. Man I totally get the frustration.

[@sushichef40]

Omg. Thank you thank you thank you. I’m in your boyfriend’s shoes and this helps me tremendously. Explains a lot. I know I have a lot to learn. This helps.

[@VirVillinger]

I felt very identified with you, I am aroace and the attachment style that I identified in myself was avoidant for a long time (although for a few years I have also been making an effort to develop secure attachments too) but listening to your video and taking into account that in addition to the diagnosis of autism, there are also very high levels of anxiety and depression, I realized that I had an anxious attachment, because when I notice many thoughts that are a problem I go directly to confront the situation, but I also just walk away if I see that I cannot have communication with the person. Thank you very much for your content 🖤 it's very helpful!

[@superkonijn988]

I read once that people who are able to get enjoyment out of just their companionship without the need to strike up conversations or needing to do something are generally happier than those who do feel like they always need to do something together. While this doesn't apply to everyone, it does for me and after realizing this it became a lot easier for me to communicate with others about what i value in a relationship when being together.

[@awsumcreations7604]

I am SO! glad I found your channel. I know talking about your personal life with you're neurodivergence can be hard but understand that your experience are not 100% unique and what you learn from your experience can help others. Also, don't worry I don't want nor expect you to talk about all your personal experience. I'm a bit of an open book cause I know my experience can help other people but besides that. Sadly, I'm surrounded by mostly neurotypical people no matter where I go and it's annoying. I get questions about my behaviors or a person tries to manipulate me because I seem weak and it hurts and it's annoying. So, seeing you talking about you're experience is not only helpful to people like you but maybe show neurotypical people how to treat neurodivergent people. I am a bundle of dyslexia, anxiety and depression and gerd

[@veronikaljungberg7149]

That tic toc clip was beyond triggering, I HATE that! My mind was blown when i realized I was autistic and thats what people were doing!!!!

[@veronikaljungberg7149]

13:30

[@SMYRNASAMTENSHERPA]

No one is used to dating anyone, everyone learns by dating people. One can’t read enough or watch enough to experience life.

[@forthebigwin]

I have to express my gratitude to you and all my friends on the spectrum for having patience with us NT's in regards to this topic. Many of us are traumatized by our prior relationships and are navigating new and current relationships in a way that is, at least in our eyes, adaptive and preventative to the pitfalls of our experiences with others. This leads to A LOT of subliminal, unclear, and often times unfair forms of pseudo-communication that ultimately leads BOTH people into a fog of weird unspoken expectations, and can set a relationship on a path to destruction if it is not handled and dealt with in a clear, direct, concise, and sensitive manner. So, thank you for dealing with us lol😅

[@Diversity_in_Neurodiversity]

Irene, you have yet again made such a relatable video! I'm auDHD and my husband is ADHD; ALL the things you've explained about your relationship has happened between me and my hubby, especially when we were dating. He and I have both exhibited issues of miscommunication and neurotypical expectations, and man, it caused so many fights in the past. Now, that I have my auDHD diagnosis, I've been able to communicate to him better what's going on with me, and it's been easier to understand each other. Thanks for sharing!

[@Diversity_in_Neurodiversity]

Also, I would love a Part 2!

[@MisterCynic18]

I think you're assuming neurotypicals understand or are even conscious of everything they want/say/do. I've found most people operate on impulse and their own feelings are esoteric mysteries they have not and often have no interest in unraveling. They just...exist, somehow, no self reflection needed.

[@bassfayce7740]

my 4.5 year old was just diagnosed w/level 1 autism and now I’m learning via self assessment questionnaires that I am likely pda level 1 autistic and probably also inattentive adhd. My husband I’m guessing is adhd neurodivergent. With my child who also shows pda behaviors, giving clear directions “I want you to go to the bathroom and brush your teeth” doesn’t work. I need to give options: it’s time to get ready for school. Do you want to brush your teeth first or comb your hair first? I guess that aligns with consent as you describe. Prior to realizing I’m neurodivergent my husband would get SO mad when I would say “we.” Like “we need to do our taxes” eventually he told me not to say “we” when I really mean “I want you to…xyz” I realize now I was “body doubling” do make things easier for ME to do them. I said “we” when I meant “I” After your video I realize he may have perceived my body doubling as “herding” as you described. Totally need to ask if him if my speculations are true. Thanks! 💖

[@Slobstopperr]

oh no 😭 i literally did the first thing you mentioned recently - im always the one that initiates conversation and always the one to invite them to hang out and i wasnt sure if they still liked me because they never invited me to hang out or text me good morning in our entire relationship so decided to test them like your partner did. I realise thats icky very now and im going to stop. Im not sure how to bring this up directly with my partner. Ive asked them previously about why they dont text me much recently and they gave a straightforward answer, and i asked if they were still interested in me and they gave me a very direct yes, so i feel bad bringing it up again for fear of being annoying, ill try my best though and figure it out( we're both undiagnosed, they believe they have autism, i believe i might have adhd) thank you for this video, i tune in from time to time, and that first situation really opened my eyes. okay now im gonna finish the video!

[@thethoughtspot222]

When in doubt just ask them directly. You’d be surprised with how patient we are with questions that seem “repetitive” because to us every question is always different somehow.

[@evergreenforestwitch]

Oh I think I can help you reframe this. So, the first thing you'll want to do is unpack the initiating/texting first thing. You are interpreting his lack of initiative to mean something - that's a choice you are making, not something he is doing, and you could simply not do that. When you catch yourself making assumptions (so, after you notice he hasn't texted or you feel resentful because you are texting first) ask yourself what story you are telling yourself in this moment. If the words always or never are in it, it's projection, not reality. Humans are not that consistent so always and never is interpretation, not fact. Start being real about what you know (the words he literally said and actions he has taken) vs. what you are assuming (the interpretation and stories you tell about his words and actions). Usually upset lies in the interpretation, not the action which is good because you can choose to interpret things differently and you have no power over their words and actions. Second, if it is meaningful to you that your SO reach out first or whatever your deal is, that's valid, but what you do with that is communicate that clearly to your partner. "I feel like I'm doing all the work in the relationship because you don't make plans for us." Or "It makes me feel like you don't care when I always have to be the one to reach out." It means being vulnerable, expressing a need and letting your partner choose to respond or not. And btw, if they don't step up when you do this, they DON'T care about you, and therefore, you should not commit yourself to them. The thing with herding is it's trying to get what you want without asking for it in an attempt to avoid the hurt of being rejected. However, if you can manipulate someone into doing what you want, that proves you are good at manipulation, not that the other person gaf about you. It means that you made the alternative unpleasant, not that they actually wanted to do what you want them to. Even if it's not what you want to hear, it's way better to know they don't care and leave than to assume they do and stay and be wrong about it. You don't get that time back and if you're a woman in a hetero relationship, it can be the worst or last thing you do. Good luck!

[@chloe2264]

@@thethoughtspot222 Yes yes yes!

[@chloe2264]

@@evergreenforestwitch Your examples sound like accusations that could put the other on the defensive. I feel like saying it more direct would fair better, like, I've noticed that you don't make plans for us, is there a reason for that or would you like to sit down and brainstorm some ideas together? And the second, you're using always which is an absolute, which you want to avoid, as you mentioned above as well. Maybe try, I've noticed that I'm usually the one reaching out. Is there a reason for that? And go from there. Keep it simple with one thought at a time and try not to get ahead of yourself or let yourself spiral before asking these questions. Communicate when you notice a pattern and address it before feelings of unworthiness get in the way and take over your brain. I've found, the faster you address something, the much more likely you are to resolve it with little to no hurt feelings. Just my two cents :)

[@evergreenforestwitch]

@chloea22 I'm not communicating with anyone so I'm not going to try those things. These were also just my two cents - not sure why you felt the need to tell me my words are bad and then give me advice like I'm OP.

[@aprlshowers]

Please do a part 2. I feel like I've internalized so many of the dating habits you listed that even though I'm neurodivergent, I've don't this to my partner and I had no idea. Thank you for your insight!!

[@jackiemartin7276]

Wow. I had never heard of "herding" before this and it completely blew my mind. I so agree with the frustration about normalizing indirect communication! Please, for the love of everything good and holy, please just tell me what you want to eat if you already know!

[@beewalsh8738]

I am so thankful for your content. I am going to be sharing this video with my wife. Her and I have been struggling with these same issues lately, so this will be really helpful.

[@intercept9510]

this was a fascinating video. Thank you for being so vulnerable and making this video. I am realizing just how little work I have put into stating my own needs and wants from my past relationships, and thus, how much of a tag-along I have been. Instead of problem solving with my partner as you have described.

[@kkuudandere]

That tiktok was both terrifying and frustrating! I know people irl that expect others to read their minds just like that (and get angry if you fail). It baffles me that that's considered normal or even ideal🤨

[@lc-do5eo]

Even in friendships, it’s so odd.

[@SharoFlores85]

Great video!!! Thanks for putting into words some of the relationship patterns I had to go through. Yes to a 2nd part!!! 🙏🏽❤️

[@ketro8276]

I can second this, 100% a yes to a part 2!

[@almag0410]

I f%#*ing LOVE YOU so much! ❤ kudos for putting all of this into words. I struggle allot with having my emotional needs expressed and met.

[@ComfortingSoundsASMR]

Ahhh watching your videos is one of the most affirming and nourishing things in my life girl thank you

[@harhccha]

I want to preface by saying I agree that herding can be insidious in its practice. To borrow the pattern where someone says good morning, how fine is the line between herding in order to test the waters for validation and wanting to pre-emptively avoid coming across as clingy in a way that could also make someone feel icky or worse, unsafe? I wish the most optimal choice was always just to be direct and declare one's needs upfront. However, depending on the level of mutual familiarity, the decision to be direct feels to me like it could end up dropping an unwelcome amount of burden on someone. In all the situations I've encountered that involve herding, that's been sort of the dual-purpose/rationale for it. Don't get me wrong - I think herding sucks and I always feel loath to participate in it, but it seems like the least bad option for someone who is cautious in their approach, or I'm open to the possibility that it seems that way out of an enormous lack of imagination on my part.

[@ThatSpazamataz]

I used to feel the same way when I was in my early twenties (where these mind games seem the most prevalent) but I no longer believe it. I think playing mind games to test the waters can backfire so easily. And that’s even before we consider the harms to the other person as discussed in this video. You would also be surprised how effective declaring wants/needs upfront is. It often makes you look quite confident even around neurotypical people. And even if you are rejected it can help you not waste hours trying to “herd” your way into your desired outcome that the other person would never be willing to give you but is also trying to “politely” herd you into not talking about. Finally you don’t have to deal with the annoyance of trying to work out whether the other person read between the lines of what you actually want or not. Which can lead to all kind of frustrating situations where you can’t even voice your frustration’s because you weren’t clear enough in the first place. As well as opens communication for the other person to be clear and honest and therefore not have to deal with situations where they are chronically upset about something you “should” be doing that they have never explicitly said. Obviously addressing your reasoning about why herding is done you do have to seriously gauge the situation before being direct. 1. How important is the thing you are asking for and 2. How unreasonable is it to ask of the other person. Obviously context is going to matter a lot here and it’s possible that you will read situations incorrectly and overstep some boundaries by accident. But at least you did so forthrightly and honestly rather than overstepping boundaries in a manipulative manner that has a much greater potential to lead to resentment from the other person. I’m not saying there is never a time where herding is the better choice. But I do sort of believe that it should be avoided as much as possible and I wish I had learned that much younger.

[@sunnaarnadottir5384]

The what to eat mind reading shenanigans is something that's confused me for so long but then talking to a friend of mine we discovered that for some people at least it's literally just that they don't know what they want till they hear the options, my friend is like this and will often ask my advice on things and just hearing me say one of the options will usually either make her think "yes!" telling her that's what she wanted or "aww, but this other option sounds better" even though before I said anything she herself had no idea. I personally tend to just forget which options exist if I don't have a list in front of me though but once I have options to choose from I'm generally quick to decide

[@SuperHappyNotMerry]

people not believing me when i tell them I say what i mean even though i continue to assert multiple times that i do not speak in code has actually made me doubt myself and my own internal experience. I've actually found myself thinking "what if i am saying something in code and being manipulative and i just don't see it because it's unconscious?" even my saying things like "I'm not mad even though my face seems inexpressive" has been taken as a lie and as manipulative. I don't understand what else I can do if the people in my life just refuse to let go of this belief that everyone hides meaning behind their words.

[@ieatpaintchips72]

yes, to a part 2

[@Bria.W]

The bangs are back! Love it! 😊💖

[@chaotika693]

This is extremely helpful, thank you for making this video even though it must have been really difficult❤

[@owihn]

I feel like I kinda do the taco bell thing but its like not cuz I know I want taco bell am and like hiding it. But its just cuz like Im too indecisive to come to that conclusion in the moment, I dont think its like cuz they know they want taco bell and are just being confusing lol

[@thestrangequarksexperience501]

wow! i thought this herding-behavior is a toxic-behavoir, and a reason to end a relationshoinship. and you telling me its "normal" for neurotypical people?!? 😱

[@lc-do5eo]

Yup!

[@Cozygamerreads]

I can almost cry while watching this video. This is exactly how i feel and what happens constantly, but I never knew how to put it into perspective. I appreciate this so much. Its give me room to breathe❤

[@Feathertail2205]

As a neurotypical who is interested in psychology, I'm pretty sure that what you described as indirect communication and mind games stemmed from the way many humans (let's say neurotypicals here) evolved to detect hidden dangers and threats in the wild. We tend to get worried and anxious if something bad is lurking around the corner and at not being able to anticipate negative outcomes that could catch us by surprise. As we become more connected as a society, this thought process translates into more political motives (how to avoid being blindsided by negative thoughts that others have of us by anticipating them to not get hurt ourselves). That's why we often try to read (sometimes too much) into situations and do things to avoid confronting the negative thing directly and try to subtly turn it into a 'positive' self-benefit. Of course this is just the way many neurotypicals function and you are right that if we want to stay in a healthy relationship with neurodivergents, these subconscious habits must be put aside in order to communicate effectively with neurodivergents with little to no mixed signals as well as clear boundaries.

[@jahajahai6204]

I have a very weird question that is stemming from my lack of knowledge and has no hidden meaning or motive. 😅 Given this explainations that you gave and the discourse of primitive mind (and its eternal existense in human mind of any time and place) in anthroplogy, can we in anyway say that this "neurodivergence" can possibly be a cognitive revolution that is happening due to extreme changes in human's lifestyle after the civilization and is growing faster bc of changes in human life in recent milleniums and centuries?

[@Feathertail2205]

@@jahajahai6204 That's a really hard thing to say. My best guess is that just like biodiversity, neurodiversity will always have the chance to come into existence alongside the neurotypical brains no matter the time and place (due to the random nature of genetics). However, compared to the past where the neurotypical mind likely had a better chance of survival in a less advanced and more disconnected world where everyone is busy protecting themselves and their own family, humans have now built great societies with vast networks of education and Healthcare systems where we have the ability to help everyone thrive no matter our genetic make-up, which in turn helps neurodivergent people thrive in larger numbers in current times as well. This is one explanation that I don't claim to be the only factor or that it's 100% the truth, just what I think as an answer to your question. I'm sure there are other environmental factors at play as well.

[@jahajahai6204]

@@Feathertail2205 Thanks for your answer and also thanks for the intresting comment in the first place.

[@cziegle3794]

yay first comment and second like. love this channel. best to you and your family. thanks for making this video.

[@celeste5401]

Your earrings are so pretty Irene! I’d love a pt. 2!

[@GN315-pe6ul]

OH MY GOD--HERDING!!! Sooooooo infuriating and I cannot understand why people cannot seem to grasp that if you cannot or will not ask directly upfront for my consent, that is a dealbreaker for me. And that invisible secret testing me BS is also a dealbreaker. I pick up on it, and will not engage any further with those that chose to engage indirectly and without transparency and consent upfront.

[@inonboltar9817]

I like the video and there are many valid points. It highlights so much and I agree about being straight forward, having more respect and understanding and being way more literal. But I also feel that when dating a ASD that it is often one sided and about their needs and their ways of understanding. It is not easy for someone of the other side of things to suddenly have to change everything to accommodate another person. I see the frustration for the ASD side on these things but there is also wanting your partner to think of you at times and your way of thinking too. I find ASD types can often not tolerate this or fathom another persons thought process is different from theirs or relevant too. I think for woman with ASD it might be easier with a male partner as men can more easily move into literal or logical thinking, but for a woman dating a ASD man it can be difficult with the lack of understanding around romance or getting upset from intolerance or other emotions.

[@thisisarianna]

I laughed out loud when you said, “How is this normalized? Why can’t you just tell him that you want Taco Bell and you're hungry?” I couldn't agree more! The whole "dancing around what you actually want to say" sort of behavior is beyond counterproductive. Thank you so much for making these videos, they are tremendously helpful!

[@catatoblob8598]

Do you normally know how your conversations are going to turn out before you have them? The girl was basically saying "are you hungry (too) (I hope you are because I want to talk about food)" "I can't decide what to eat" and "now that I'm imagining eating BBQ, I realise that I would really prefer taco bell".

[@Iwouldn_tdothatifiwereyoU]

so,,, the thing about people constantly not taking your stated boundaries seriously in conversation in favor of taking it as banter that they respond to with further banter... is a neurotypical thing? :) because oh my god, not with my partner (we are both autistic), but with other family members (my sister is the best example I can come up with atm) I will be stating my frustration with them very plainly and telling them what I need from them in order to feel like my needs are being listened to, and they will just... continue with the banter, which is SO FRUSTRATING. And then there comes a point where I am so angry and irritated that I just completely shut down. Hhhh

[@jwmmitch]

my GF and I are both ND, and it's difficult for us to un-learn the NT stuff. Something else that's a challenge is that since we're used to NT relating our ND behavior is disruptive to the other's expectations and can cause distress. We have also noted that we are literal differently, and it's worse the more distressed we get. So we don't even have the perk of speaking the same dialect of autistic LOL

[@RayScheelhaase-nd9rw]

"HERDING". Been hyper aware of it my whole life. But could never put it so concisely. Thank you.

[@chantz_a_loo]

I straight up told my husband that I “need to pee” on our first date, and he was hooked forever. First relationship for both of us - started dating 1st year of university. Both ND. Only hubby has been diagnosed so far, but that was in early 90’s vague “learning difficulties” so needs a recheck. Pretty sure our son has ADHD - he’s going for testing soon. Then my turn.

[@d.d.d.a.a.a.n.n.n]

omg, I never realized that parallel play wasn't a thing that people did. My siblings and I always did that, and almost all of my close friends do, too

[@xotoast]

I'm AUdhd Ive had to practice saying my whole thought out loud. I seem to have learned NT speech patterns and my husband misunderstands me so often and I come off as plain cruel or dismissive sometimes. But when I say my whole thought process is the only way to avoid that. I'll be astonished that he took it as mean because I know what I meant. But I realized he interpreted it a certain way or I didn't say like an important part of info. If that makes sense

[@er6730]

That's so important! I (ADHD) have misinterpreted my autistic husband's statements SO many times, and it was confusing for me that he was sometimes kind and sometimes brutally mean! He'd say a few words and because most of the thought was left unsaid, I had to answer the "what does he mean?" question with what it would mean if I said it. Finally I've learned to clarify by saying, "when you said x, did you mean y? That's what I understood, but maybe I'm wrong." And almost always he's like, "WHAT?! No, I meant ABC!" And it's a relief. Also, I'd never have arrived at that conclusion myself because he has such a different thought process than I do. But I try to keep the clarifying questions to only the most hurtful times because he gets stressed out if he has to talk too much.

[@smokeandfears7546]

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see flat affect as no affect, it's just far more subtle than what most people express. I can hear in your voice change and see in your face emotion and expression.