They Might Ban MACHAMP.. But Why?

[@jimothycool]

I'd be down with an outright ban to Dynamic Punch too honestly, thats a simple ban and the move is just lame/uncompetitive. Never sees use besides Machamp anyway Suspect Thread: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-machamp-suspect-test.3756736 jimothycool.com Horse Council Merch available until end of December.

[@joeg451]

I agree. No Guard is a cool ability that can enable some interesting strategies. Dynamicpunch is the problem

[@astromigui]

This is the most reasonnable answer in my opinion.

[@ethanpaulson3684]

Sad to see machamp, fraternal twin of the centaur(four arms two legs) which is itself a cousin to horses see this kind of complex family tree infighting. If he is pruned from this tree at least he will confuse everyone on the way down.

[@blazie42069]

Same but dynamic punch isn’t broken on other mons so i guess ban machamp

[@dridri6762]

we tried to initiate a ban of dynamic punch, but the authorities of smogon refused a suspect test of a move, same thing for iron head they'd rather ban rachi

[@chess_fella]

I don’t blame Machamp. Imagine how confusing it would be to get punched in the face by a gentleman with four arms. I’d get confused too.

[@eclipse9727]

Of course you'd be confused. It'd be a very... Dynamic Punch.

[@urkerab]

I'm a gentleman with forearms, but I promise not to punch you in the face.

[@Nethaura]

@@eclipse9727 ba dum tss

[@alkukayen4150]

Hardest I've laughed this week thanks man

[@sebasu4875]

I see the confusion, but do not be misled, Machamp is no gentleman. He is a brute with no respect for tradition societal conventions. All I did was switch in and he is punching me? No “Greetings, how are you on this fine morning?” It’s utterly disrespectful.

[@al77709]

if machamp gets banned i am running dynamic punch breloom. and metagross and tyranitar you know what, the whole team will be punching. dynamically. and they will not miss. if dynamic punch has zero fans, know that the notorious anti-machamp activist jimothy cool has successfully assassinated me.

[@Legogreens]

Based and punch pilled

[@g3n3r1c6]

@@al77709 Let it never be said that Machamp is the only D-Punch user.

[@Blastosie_Offical]

@al77709 or just use Machoke

[@philiphunt-bull5817]

I am impressed by how dynamically you punch

[@derekgunnels4856]

I'm so for Machamp. Dude sucks literally everywhere. It is refreshing to hear he's actually doing something. It may be dirty fighting but every Machamp has it's move. If Machamp or Dynamic Punch gets banned then they have to ban Iron Head on Jirachi. It's a package deal in my mind

[@inazuma-fulgur]

Honestly ban serene grace, do rachi like they did froslass

[@rajkanishu]

Is being notorious for being lame and stupid and unfun better than rot in the depths of irrelevance?

[@misirtere9836]

@@rajkanishu Yes. Yes it is. There's a thousand Pokemon, it's more exceptional to be notorious than to be nothing.

[@Craftypianist]

Yeah you CANNOT ban Machamp and leave Serene Grance Jirachi on the field. At least keep the logic consistent.

[@homerman76]

​@@Craftypianist Idk, I just don't think the two are as equivalent as people say. Confusion is far worse than flinching and will affect even a switch in right away, and chances of hitting yourself in confusion are almost just as high as serene Grace's iron head flinches

[@Nethaura]

Hey if a whole Machamp punched me I'd get confused too if not blown to smithereens

[@basedpliskin]

turn your ass from a normal type to a ghost type real quick. but now that you’re a ghost type you can spin the block and get your revenge

[@Zwijger]

If machamp punched you, you would be dead. Dude can lift ships or something I believe.

[@mmurd]

@@basedpliskinwait omg spin block that was rly good

[@GreenJuiceGuy27]

There is an error with golisopod on smogon. In the actual cartridge games if golisopod gets to half HP or below though hazard damage, i.e., stealth rock, spike, and heals itself back to above half HP with a hald item, i.e., citrus berry, emergency exit will NOT activate, but on smogon it still will. If anyone can address this error to the smogon operators please do so. It would highly be appreciated.

[@PrimalSlime]

Before the suspect I saw machamp maybe a handful of times but you ALWAYS see iron head jirachi and being forced to have MULTIPLE answers to it is dumb like jirachis face

[@jaykovar8231]

Banning the entire pokemon Machamp without confronting Rachi's iron head (which imo honestly cuts the entire format's fun in half) would be absurd. Ban the move dynamic punch and complex ban rachi alongside iron head and the format is instantly way better imo. I was with Jimothy earlier in the year arguing that smogon's banning was in a decent place but there has been a lot of confused logic behind some bans recently that it's hurt the fun for sure

[@Rexir2]

Jirachi would then shift to using Headbutt, forcing people to use ghost types just to be able to play the game. Stuff like this is why modern combos like Rough Skin + Rocky Helmet work

[@Legogreens]

​@@Rexir2normal w/I stab is so terrible on base 100 attack that I cannot believe you're serious.

[@Legogreens]

Absolutely preach but sadly archaic law persists

[@jaykovar8231]

@ Headbutt is half the damage, and an easier type to deal with. The problem isn't that a rachi that can flinch is an auto-win button; if it was it would've been banned over a decade ago. The problem is that it's unfun coin-flipping AND it's very strong. Being forced to switch to headbutt would remove the second half of the problem. Besides, a complex ban could just remove headbutt from rachi's set as well and absolutely nothing would be lost

[@KFLawless1412]

Don't even ban Dpunch just ban No Guard idgaf

[@SSBMNicki]

I think the reason why people go "what about Jirachi???" is because to an outsider it seems weird to accuse Machamp of these crimes when Jirachi has been doing the same thing for longer while also having a lot more usage. It's as if the SSBM community said "projectile spamming is broken!!" and then decided to ban Samus first before taking a look at Falco

[@g3n3r1c6]

Nicki detected Edit: I don't play this format much, but from what I've seen Jirachi is a good deal less problematic than Machamp because Machamp relies on D-Punch in a way Jirachi doesn't for Iron Head.

[@Snocone333]

ah that nair boot samus' got tho, goes crazy

[@SpookyRedBone]

@@g3n3r1c6para spam with rachi/togekiss is a slowburn cancer. While machamp can be a instant game ender

[@shaso567]

I just don't get why things like this didnt happen a lot sooner as an outsider. Like the swagger t-wave klefki ban was maybe a year or 2 into its format.

[@mrJLJ66]

​@shaso567 This is mainly because back in the day, players were more open to finding counters and counterplay instead of complaining for a ban. The modern Pokemon scene is a lot more serious and competitive-feeling. Back then, you'd get confused or paraflinched, get annoyed, then move on. Nowadays it feels like people call for bans for any strategy that requires effort to counter. People prefer to build for generic common encounters instead of countering niche, but still want to win all the time.

[@dracozeon_]

As annoying as it is, i find jirachi far more annoying in this format

[@jimothycool]

Both are very annoying. Machamp is more clearly carried by 1 Broken thing though

[@dracozeon_]

@jimothycool yeah true, at least jirachi cant do much to mons like heatran. Unfortunate that theres no king in gen 4 that can resist fighting dark and rock

[@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917]

​@@jimothycool I feel like it could be easily countered by just running any sleep move since they're guaranteed to hit no matter what if people are worried about it.

[@jimothycool]

@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917 Most common item is Lum on Machamp

[@its_me_jamie]

Decemeber 19, 2024 With Machamp’s No Guard ability, the rules of probability didn’t apply to me. Dynamic Punch wasn’t just a gamble-it was a promise. The second their Pokémon switched in, I felt it: that electric anticipation right before impact. Machamp didn’t hesitate, didn’t falter. Four fists, two ready for business, and one Dynamic Punch locked on like it was destiny itself. There was no room for luck, no coin flip, no “what if.” It hit. It always hits. The confusion spread like wildfire. Their Pokémon staggered, wild-eyed, unsure of friend or foe. Its attempts to strike back were laughable, flailing uselessly as it smacked itself in the face. I didn’t even tell Machamp to move for a moment. I just let it stand there, stoic, watching the chaos unfold, arms folded in a silent mock

[@its_me_jamie]

folks

[@TheOneAndOnlyGetCrafty333]

Folks

[@hario7641]

folks

[@dswrabkln4900]

Simply banning Dynamic Punch is the obvious choice here. It's a generally terrible move that nobody uses, except to abuse No Guard on this one specific Pokémon. There would be almost no collateral damage, and would leave Machamp intact as a sort of niche option that can spam 100% accurate Cross Chops and Stone Edges.

[@smoke5607]

Seriously there are so many simple options with zero collateral. Just pick one.

[@mistergrool3941]

Banning No Guard: complex ban Banning Snow Cloak last year: not a complex ban Banning Jirachi: barely considered, resulted in Machamp suspect instead Gen 4 Council's scientific method is to reach a conclusion to ban or not ban and justify it through any means necessary

[@misalignedmisanthropist]

I like that a lot of people wanting a Jirachi ban instead probably arent even good in DPP OU - most of the qualified players in the survey said they'd rather have a Machamp suspect than a Jirachi suspect

[@mistergrool3941]

@misalignedmisanthropist I mean BKC has been openly complaining about Jirachi in gen 4 and the initial Jirachi question was brought up on the policy review forum (AKA where only qualified people can post) but ok

[@KR-wl5yd]

No guard is a complex ban because its only on Machamp. Snow cloak is on various lines of Pokemon so they can pin it on the ability The DPP council cannot change how bans work, they do not control Smogon policy Jirachi wasnt suspected because it lacked community support

[@KR-wl5yd]

​@@mistergrool3941 BKC and that question asker are not the entire DPP playerbase

[@watercrystals9744]

banning no guard isn't a complex ban, it's just a ban that due to how smogon's framework operates for consistency, needs to be provably an issue beyond just being on a single pokemon - abilities are not intrinsically broken, it is the collective traits of a pokemon which makes an ability appear broken to illustrate that, we can use an example from a previous gen pokemon with huge power and pure power have never been banned except for mega mawile in ORAS which means we can conclude that abilities which double your raw attack stat without drawbacks are not inherently broken a lot of people in the past argued that we should ban gorilla tactics instead of g-darmanitan but that would require gorilla tactics being provably broken which evidently can't be true since it is directly inferior to what huge power and pure power offer (being just a choice band as an ability), which means the problem specifically has to stem from the pokemon itself that makes gorilla tactics appear to be broken snow cloak is a silly ban but it's also just for consistency since sand veil was already banned at that point, and whether people like it or not, it violates evasion clause and should've fell under it eons ago as for jirachi, most qualified players don't want jirachi banned - the actual popular stance is to ban iron head but unfortunately tiering administration will not permit it and thus people would rather keep the positives that jirachi brings to the metagame even if it has numerous grievances alongside it

[@driftwood42]

If machamp gets banned, I hope they announce it by making a Lavos style copypasta about how unfair it is

[@ulrichbrodowsky5016]

It's funny that noguard, which eliminates randomness leads to such a luck-based pokemon Edit: Also I once had a Magneton getting flinched to death by Jirachi iron head

[@whatrnames]

As someone who plays pretty much only Gen4, I'll be voting for It if I qualify, but it would be so much simpler to just ban Dynamic Punch. It doesn't have to be a "complex" ban - literally just ban the move no matter what pokemon it is ran on. The move is shit and even more luck based when you use it without NG anyway. Machamp without NG+DP is fine. Noguard without DP is fine. Dynamic punch is not fine. But anyway, 76% of the community wanted it banned and for good fucking reason. I think it is a waste to not just ban the problem move and instead ban the whole mon, but oh well, I'm still going to be voting yes because fuck playing against Machamp.

[@XenithShadow]

Yeh dynamic punch and zap cannon easily fullfil the criteria for moves that should have been banned year back. If a move is strong and has low accuracy its uncompetive as it turn the game into rng luck game. It also the reason sleep was banned, it was too luck based and to strong if it landed.

[@iantaakalla8180]

I think the only reason that Dynamic Punch has not been banned is simply because a coin flip for huge damage and confusion is never a thing you want to gamble on, so by being a coin flip nobody would seriously use Dynamic Punch. Furthermore, Dynamic Punch effectively being Machamp’s signature move make people think Machamp is the issue rather than that move. And while the fact that No Punch Dynamic Guard is Machamp’s thing has held true so far, Pokémon has increasingly become competitive. The Paldea region Pokemon alone are generally the top tier Pokemon. Who’s to say in Generation 10 a Pokemon with powerful inaccurate moves deliberately gets No Guard as a Hidden Ability?

[@misirtere9836]

@@iantaakalla8180 OHKO moves are banned and they only have 30% accuracy

[@varelasensei]

Tbh I'd just ban the DPP council. Snow Cloak ban is unjustifiable in the grand scheme of the tier and suspect testing Machamp while allowing Jirachi to run around, knowing full well that complex bans would immediately solve the tier's issues, is ridiculously stubborn. DPP seems like it is being held back by the very people who are supposed to allow it to move forward.

[@mattgibson9337]

Nah you know whats stubborn constantly calling for complex bans despite the higher ups at smogon (NOT THE GENERATION COUNCIL) stating that complex bans are off the table.

[@Legogreens]

When the rules do not serve you their purpose it's time for a change. Well said

[@Legogreens]

​@@mattgibson9337What you said amounts too "You know what the problem is? Asking for due justice when the court already decided your guilty" Why be complacent when things are operating in a manner which is far from optimal ? And no one asked for "constant" complex bans. Snow Cloak + hail setting on same team is the closest thing to a "complex" ban we ever wanted which could simply be counted over evasion Claus, while keeping the sand viel mins banned due to Turanitar and Hippo being far more common than Obamasow. A dynamic punch ban is not complex. It's 1 move which most of you have 0 issue when it was baton pass. What this boils down too is boring uncreative players not seeing value in Machamp outside of cheese and so being fine with throwing the baby out with the bath water. I hope the future handlers of smogon can do better than the current old head and their enablers

[@Pumpost]

@@mattgibson9337smogon leaders are soy boys in general

[@indiradevi8136]

The thing is jirachi adds a lot of positive stuff to the tier and meta without jirachi is Def worse than meta with rachi. The best solution is iron head jirachi is terrible. Machamp adds nothing to the tier positively and lead metagame would just shift to gallade and Lucario

[@brent8341]

When this kind of thing happens decades later, I can only assume some smogon mod got really salty.

[@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917]

That's probably true, honestly.

[@hatyyy]

the community voted on machamp to get suspected, smogon isnt some evil council, they held a survey to see if the playerbase thinks machamp is too much.

[@590488]

​@hatyyy they want to play a 1v1 fox only final destination style game, but they are playing pokemon. Ideally they need to ban all statuses, flinching, make every move never miss then we can start playing the Ideal form of pokemon.

[@hatyyy]

@@590488 bro what

[@HESOMADBRO]

Amen, 80-90% of bans are superfluous and simply end up creating the next most annoying thing. Listening to the playerbase too much creates an entitled community, not a balanced game.@@590488

[@markipedia5511]

With machamp gone the way for honorable jirachi gameplay is finally clear

[@shadowslic6096]

Exploud shaking in terror at the thought of being sacrificed at the altar for the Smogon Overlords.

[@NotoriousDink]

7:46 this was a common discussion in BW2, when people were talking about blaze blaziken or mold breaker excadrill. TheFlamingSpade made a video of “the new OU” where he used ember ho-oh and a Mewtwo with literally no moves, because if you allow one pokemon under specific circumstances, why not every pokemon?

[@xaropevic7918]

Blaze blaziken and mold breaker excadrill are very different cases, in one you have a mon that would add nothing to the tier and in the other a pokémon that is integral to the tier and that with sand force can bring a luck factor to pass through a would be check with no risk while with mold breaker requiring multiple flinches would add a risk to it and mitigate that problem by a lot.

[@GoodNormals]

End of an era if he gets banned… I got to #1 in OU gen 4 with lead machamp a few years back and that set became my favorite competitive set of all time.

[@spongeb27]

Just run Sheer Cold/Fissure/Horn Drill to counter it 5Head

[@nishantdayama4558]

Banning Dynamic Punch is sufficient ... Machamp still gets cross chop and stone edge combo which is not bad with no guard (and scope lens, if you wanna go with that).

[@LordBathtub]

Well if he'd stop leaving the milk out and paid his rent on time he wouldn't be in this mess.

[@margerinethacker6499]

i like slowbro as a switch in because it resists dynamic punch and is immune to confusion

[@SlowRule]

Mfw you can ban d punch and champ can use cross chop but rachi is fine rolling 60%s every turn. > if you take away d punch champ becomes unviable > ban machamp instead of d punch removing it entirely from the metagame even with a 1:1 replacement in cross chop. > i love 'simple bans' > My based 60% Para/flinch isn't bad for the format because i use sub CM please ignore every special set running head and/or slam for free safe scald i mean skilled progress making gameplay i have counterplay in a check that can only get permanantly crippled for the entire match for switching in. I get hating d punch, i also hate it but you can't look at 'rng control' and then ignore the jirachi i mean jirachi i mean elephant in the room.

[@riskybiznu9702]

In this specific case a simple move ban would be ideal. Machamp without dp can still be fun and isn’t warranted to get a ban whatsoever. While dp is also a move that no other mon uses. I get your argument of it becoming too much when we just start banning moves left and right, but cmon its DPP Ou. The metagame isnt gonna change so much to the point where theyd just have to ban single moves day by day.

[@dilliondantin]

Gonna get voting requirements just to vote to keep the guy so we can see Jimothy enter his villain arc

[@Brandon.thebaby]

a wise ctc once said “whats a horse to a dinosaur.. aerodactl” so would that make the aerodynamic aerodactyl a horse, thus an imposing threat or potential ally to the mighty macgargo’s reign? a serious inquiry, thank you

[@alkukayen4150]

LMAOOO

[@ericprzyborowski150]

If machamp gets banned, people will just use machoke instead. Machamp is used along side para so it doesn’t matter if machoke is slower or weaker, you’re using it because you’re hoping for the para confuse hax. I’ve seen teams that use both already and they’re “not bad.” They accomplish what they set out to do which is luck you out. What do we do then? Ban machoke? At that point it’s getting ridiculous. We are doing to reach a similar point to where people were using diglet because it does the same thing dugtrio does. It doesn’t matter that it’s “worse” it still creates the same problem we tried to remove in the first place

[@mistergrool3941]

@ericprzyborowski150 the more I read about this suspect the more annoyed I get that they won't just ban No Guard if they're unwilling to ban DPunch. They literally banned an ability last year but refuse to consider it now. I've seen the unironic argument that "machamp isn't good without No Guard so just ban him entirely." What kind of stupid logic is that? I guess they should just ban Gligar and Electrode in Gen 3 OU because they're bad without soundproof or sand veil.

[@ericprzyborowski150]

@ this makes way more sense. atleast its “consistent” with past actions. they banned an ability once in recent memory with snow cloak, they can do it again with no guard.

[@thefloodwatch785]

He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he was 9, always the same! Couldn't keep his four hands out of the no guard drawer! But not our Machamp! Couldn't be precious Machamp! Stealing them blind! And he gets to be in OU!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him!

[@KFLawless1412]

Alternative course of action - unban OHKO moves

[@amphicyon4359]

9:10 Start of the Jimothy crashout lol

[@hakkbak]

1:39 Arguably confusion is a stronger mechanic than paralysis. Paralysis slows and gives a 25% chance for inaction whereas confusion is a flat 50% chance with potential self damage. Objectively way higher odds of inactivity, allowing for amazing set up opportunities.

[@eeveewithcoffee9554]

I think people being afraid of complex bans are really dumb. Just banning the combination of no guard and dynamic punch would be fine. The combination of serene grace and flinching move Like how gen 5 banned sand and sand rush. Or rain and swift swim

[@matthewbrown6573]

The problem with that is that it opens up a whole can of worms. With the example you gave it was a weather and an ability in a generation where almost every pokemon can run a non weather effected ability. A complex ban like this is just a pokemon and a move it can learn. If we do that why not ban jirachi and flinching moves, or even serene grace pokemon and flinching moves. Lead ash azelf with explosion is annoying and limiting, why not ban explosion on azelf. It a complex ban like that that lead to these kinds of things

[@MaxonerousX]

Banning sand w/ sand rush and rain w/ swift swim essentially just bans sand rush and swift swim because they have no utility outside of their respective weather

[@Lilybun]

is your best argument really just a slippery slope fallacy? lmfao pathetic.

[@eeveewithcoffee9554]

@matthewbrown6573 I haven’t said anything about banning anything because it’s annoying. I like playing para flinch and yes I am a bad person. But there’s more uses to these Pokémon besides 60% flinch chance. Same with the ability

[@eeveewithcoffee9554]

@@MaxonerousX counter weather teams. Sand rush exadrill was broken on rain teams. So much so it was banned to Ubers after banning sand rush and sand stream together

[@canaldecasta]

Clearly the solution is to run Own Tempo Spinda. Turn their Machamp strategy upside down.

[@misirtere9836]

hmm today i will stop the confusion RNG of dynamic punch by using a comically frail normal type :clueless:

[@austinlundahl5349]

The problem is dynamic punch never missing. Not machamp itself. I’ll never understand not doing a “complex ban” in a situation like this because at the end of the day this is just a battle simulator. They have these super specific things though that aren’t allowed, because they are “technically” impossible, for example you can’t use shiny articuno and have the move refresh in gen 3 and raikou isn’t allowed to learn shadow ball unless it is shiny. I can’t remember the thing with greninja either where battle bond can only be a certain gender. But people have coke math and made videos of how it is almost impossible to get these Pokémon legitimately and have the EV trained specifically to battle competitively in an actual Nintendo sponsored event. Just ban dynamic punch and your problem goes away. You can still lead machamp,

[@TheSteakJustice]

No, complex bans are off the table (unless it's baton pass being allowed as long as you only pass 1 kind of stat boost, or the actual surviving drizzle only being allowed on teams without swift swim) The absolute refusal to engage with complex bans because of how they bungled Baton Pass in Gen 6 is something I can't really argue against but is also something that I feel a deep-seated disdain for whenever it's a "complex" ban that's very easy to understand why the one interaction is problematic rather than a pokemon's entire kit. But maybe I'm just old fashioned

[@ryphereon1153]

I still think it's laughable to ban Machamp while allowing Jirachi. Jirachi does the same thing that Machamp is tested for - It makes you unable to attack. In Rachi's case you have a 60% chance to get flinched followed by a 50% para chance. "But you can switch a quad resist into Jirachi, you can't switch a Ghost into Machamp!" Jirachi can run HP Ground for Heatran/Magnezone, Grass Knot for Swampert, Fire Punch for Steel types etc. just like Machamp uses Payback for Ghost types. It is a pest and banning Machamp while allowing Jirachi is favoritism.

[@MariotheAnimator]

Why exactly is Gen 4 the only gen Machamp is getting banned, when the rate of confusion self hits didn't decrease until gen 7?

[@poboi-lt5673]

My guess is because the lead metagame is so important this is Gen. Champs ubiquitous usage rates correspond with ubiquitous self hits during confusion.There isn't enough viable mons to take Champ on without over centralizing the metagame or at least making it a bit unhealthy. Though I could be wrong however

[@comfyasf]

The ban has perfect accuracy due to the "No Guard" ability. Machamp never stood a Machance.

[@crazyaboutthomas]

I would like to remind everyone that if Machamp isn’t banned, there is a very real possibility Muk Monday’s will become Machamp Mondays, which would be disastrous.

[@thisrandomdude2880]

Honestly this is one of the reasons I think Bug types should have always been immune to confusion. It's not something that comes up all that often, but when it does, it helps neuter these annoyig occurrences.

[@Legogreens]

Lore wise wouldn't psychic make more sense ?

[@thisrandomdude2880]

@Legogreens Bugs can't get dizzy because they don't have an inner ear so I think making them immune to confusion would be pretty fitting. Now imagine a Bug/Dragon Mega Flygon spamming outrage as a late game cleaner after you get rid of the fairies. That'd be awesome. (I also happen to be a "bug type should resist and be super effective against Fairy" advocate, not particularly for lore but more for balance).

[@Legogreens]

@@thisrandomdude2880 cool TIL. Yeah another fairy weakness would be great and if you haven't played renegade plat it actually has both fairy's and a flygon with 600 BST and bug dragon type

[@ramblincapuchin9075]

I'd actually be down for that change considering the sheer number of types Bug stinks against Personally I think every type should have some kind of quirk that makes them unique to try, even while they are unviable

[@cellavue]

Instead of banning Machamp, No Guard and Dynamic Punch combination should be banned.

[@user-mh7uq1jl5x]

2:38 Game Freak allowed the most notable and insightful Pokemon Social Media Influencer; Jimothy Cool to preview gen 11's new Rotom-G form. I, for one, am immensely excited.

[@kingdom2]

Rotom-Ghost has already been out as a great switch in due to its ghost typing, making it a ghost who can't be hit by dynamic punch. The ghost type ghost can ghost the machamp to ghost the non ghosted pokemon, but payback could ghost you back from machamp. So don't always rely on ghost type ghosts like rotom-ghost, as ghosts can also be ghosted themself for super effective damage.

[@bradfjord]

Rotom Guash

[@kingdom2]

@@bradfjord Ghost types ghost fighting types, unless you are a ghost fighting type and ghost fighting types but also can't ghost other ghosts. Ghost types can't ghost fighting types, and fighting types can't ghost ghosts. Everyone is ghosting ghosts, but fighting types can't. That's why rotom-ghost is a good switch in to ghost the dynamic punch from machamp, the fighting type. Machamp can't ghost ghosts. Unless the Machamp runs the move payback, as to show payback for ghosting them, they can ghost ghosts well.

[@its_deer]

I sure hope I never get dynamically punched by a buff guy with four whole arms.

[@sukidable]

Banning dynamicpunch would be better imo, that wouldn't have any other repercussions because nothing else uses it. And we could instead use cross chop for the memes

[@supremeclamitas5053]

Smogon avoids complex bans where possible, under the philosophy that if you take a pokemon, and take away all its best moves and one of its abilities, are you really playing that pokemon? Or merely a farce of it

[@Legogreens]

​@@supremeclamitas5053this is different as OP stated. Your banning 1 move all Pokemon and this one move is uncompetitive on every Pokemon that would use it. It literally makes more sense than a Machamp ban. I'm sure if enough tourney players got cheeses by machoke or some crazy jitachi variant they will consider it and I wouldn't be surprised if after the fact they keep Machamp banned

[@supremeclamitas5053]

@@Legogreens If Machamp's the only pokemon using the move, it's effectvely a complex ban. If multiple pokemon used Dynamic Punch, then a move ban would align with Smogon's philosophy. It's like how, in gen 9, last respects as a move was only banned once Basculegion also got access to it

[@Legogreens]

@@supremeclamitas5053 This is just plain stupid though from most people's perspective. A group of a few select men are larping that there is. Pokemon constitution that they have to follow like a lawyer reading fine print and if it's not adhered at the level of minute technicality then then the community will enter a state of chaos and disorder. Not the case, waiting for another user of the move doesn't make it any less or more complex as the nature of the ban itself should be what constitutes whether a ban is complex or not, not the criteria used to justify it. Smogon is looking so silly right now in the eyes of many

[@Aquilenne]

It makes sense too. Machamp isn't overpowered, it's just off-meta and frustrating because of confusion luck. It's even more frustrating to go against someone running something else with Dynamic Punch that just gets lucky and raw hits them all. Since the core issue isn't power or metagame centralisation but uncompetitiveness of confusion that also makes progress, it makes sense to just ban the move like OHKO moves are.

[@theragepig7636]

"we're banning machamp after 2 decades because it's uncompetitive" "so why won't you let Electivire and Dusknoir fall to UU?" "we can't be making such drastic changes to the tier so long after it ended!"

[@telstraRobs5]

"Skill issue, you just use Own Tempo Slowbro and never get confused" t. Guy Who Has Never Played Gen 4 In His Life

[@wheatleythebrick2276]

i love those kinds of suggestions lmao. Just use aerial ace against sand veil garchomp!!

[@CharaTF2]

me when my own tempo slowbro gets oneshot and sucks at everything else

[@berkayarmutcuoglu5738]

Exactly even with Scizor no longer being good as it was Slowbro isn't kind of a mon you would want to use as bulky water in this gen.

[@jeremymore451]

Discombobulate. -Machamp, probably.

[@irisstarsterio]

I rhink banning something because it doesnt feel good to fight, and abuses RNG, but the literal best Pokemon in the game spams serene grace iron head, it just feels completely dumb to me. Like i get not liking it and i understand the logic behind keeping Jirahci and banning Machamp, but i feel like if youre going to ban one for that reason you should ban the other. If youre afraid of impacting the tier too much than why are you banning a Pokemon to begin with???

[@tomokokuroki1946]

Lol Machamp turning the tables and instead of him tossing a coin w dymamicpunch it forces YOU to toss a coin for confusion. Chat move

[@twilights_384]

tomoko pfp… we are brethren…

[@Mijzelffan]

Machamp and Jirachi are the most hated pokemon in the DPP format, but the most hated pokemon in the adv format is crit flamethrower Aerodactyl

[@PillzmansFox]

Still sounds like emotional butt hurt to ban an entire mon rather then the SINGULAR move thats causing the problem. No one will use it you say? Never stopped them from banning Pokemon before, and who knows, maybe a few years down the line we'll find out something like guts machamp is a perfect counter to a new meta threat but oh no you're too butt hurt to cut off the hand and you went for the head.

[@willow1601]

Not sure why this isn’t equated to spore at all. 100% accurate move that prevents the opponent from moving. At least in confusion’s case it’s some of the time you don’t move. And unlike sleep confusion is gone on switch. Plus one has a lot less pp than the other. This reads as “my normal meta option is getting beaten by a slightly off meta option, ban it.” I’m also wondering if a no guard zap cannon would also be banned or is it specifically that no one likes confusion despite the ease of curing it.

[@its_me_jamie]

Jimothy Cool might be getting banned for being too cool

[@pointynives]

I don't understand the point. You're playing a game where every move has a chance to crit, we regularly run moves with 15-20% miss chance, moves that have 30% chance to para, burn, flinch. moves that have a 30% chance to KO the opponent are legal and sometimes get used, every serene grace pokemon exists, we've all also had games come down to a 10% freeze chance on an ice beam. Rules in smogon are starting to get wonky. It's pokemon. It's always dumb coin flips. They always cost games. It happens

[@SPONGCHAO]

Yeah this is kinda my stance. Every game of pokemon has RNG and trying to pretend like we can arbitrarily move the bar of 'how much rng' is silly to me. Even if Machamp gets banned paraspam is still gonna be strong and Jirachi is still probably going to keep doing its thing with Iron Head. This just seems like an exercise in futility to me lol

[@BillytheCorgi]

You know who would never get banned? Yamper, as he is the most fair and loved competitive pokemon of all, and he is a valued representative of the corgi counsel.

[@kalarse]

The fact that the council member who began the thread is tourney banned, makes me think this is some type of conspiracy made by Iron Mugilis and Old Money to kill any confidence Machamp has left, in the only meta it is relevant. And yet somehow thet finally corrupted Jim to do their bidding. This is outrageous

[@tortuga8470]

Why is he tourney banned?

[@Iamthe2G]

I don't think banning Machamp altogether is the correct move. If the only thing keeping it in OU is DynPunch+No Guard, just put a complex ban and ban the combo or the move itself since no one is wasting a move slot for DynPunch in any other mon (before Gen 5 at least, with No Guard Golurk, for added redundancy). Machamp could still see play in lower tiers and occasionally OU even without it with Guts and even No Guard + Stone Edge or something. I think Machamp is far less deserving of a ban than, say, Scarf Jirachi + Iron Head or Magic Guard Clefable.

[@imablisy]

Machamp is an absolute criminal but how will I win ladder games if it's banned?

[@ericfrancisrock9974]

I’ve never understood why the competitive Pokémon scene doesn’t just make their own video game where they can remove RNG entirely.

[@cheesyb4975]

Y'know the more of these videos I watch, the more I think the smogon council is just jealous of chess players. If even the tiniest thing is luck dependent they fly into a rage over how uncompetitive it is. I wouldn't even be mad at them if they weren't ironically the most inconsistent judges I've ever seen.

[@pantelislourentzos1860]

If they ban Jirachi's ability (hehehe) then this is absolutely fine. We're talking about T-Wave plus Iron head, for a lower than Tartarus chance of moving. This is absolutely ridiculous. They banned Snow Cloak. What a joke. I've went in depth about this on Smogon, so I won't waste time again. The council is out of their minds

[@TheGuyWhoIsSitting]

I played often enough in Gen 4. Machamp was never considered that good once the novelty factor wore off. Sure, the games I played weren’t the most competitive and the most serious. I never even remember people complaining about Machamp. It was usually Latias, which is back to being legal, and Jirachi. People also complained about Salamence and Garchomp being banned. Banning Machamp is the wrong decision. Banning dynamic punch if they have to hit something would be better and in the case of Jirachi, just ban it. The only other time I remember being baffled with bans was the compromise for Gen 5 rain teams. I still think they should have just banned drizzle.

[@joelcheong7010]

Machamp Monday is the Evil Cousin of Muk Monday. What next, Mugulis Monday? This is Insane, folks.

[@DCBiscuit]

I’ve always like Machamp. I’m realizing now that it might be one of my favorite Pokémon, like top 150.

[@Lucian0angel0]

Do people who play showdown not realize it’s a luck based game? What’s next ? Ban Critical hits ?

[@astromigui]

I've heard that he might be banned for cultural appropriation. A group of Hindus have complained that this imposter is trying to make himself pass as Lord Shiva, propaging confusion everywhere he goes. It is insane

[@thatsabruhmoment17]

Just after he was beaten by the Nahobino too. A deity can't have anything these days smh

[@Maragidyne555]

​@@thatsabruhmoment17 more reasons to ban machamp tbh

[@SamanthaC641]

Mtg leaking into Pokémon lore, no way!

[@canaldecasta]

​@@SamanthaC641what is bro yapping about💀

[@SamanthaC641]

@canaldecasta the magic the gathering set Kaladesh was recently renamed because it had racist connotations IRL in the hindi language. There's more to the story if you wanna look it up.

[@Nicole-wt3wr]

4 arms ? Gentlemans , this is a horse

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Honestly Hot take This is gen 9's fault, not Machamp's. Generation 9 kicked off a slippery scope of rampant bans to sculpt a metagame that is backsliding into prior generations. It changed the perception of bans as an option of last resort, to the response to being annoyed by something earlier this week.

[@Jc0803]

100% agree, sad to see that other generations are now going down the gen 9 route

[@Julius064]

I never thought about it this way. I started playing old gens again to get away from the modern meta which is really don't enjoy, only to find bizarre bans coming for every gen. Its clear that people are only doing these bans because they find something annoying. Suspect testing Machamp before Jirachi when the latter is a far more dangerous, versatile, and toxic pokemon, its clear some higherup got beat by Machamp a few times too many for his liking.

[@AmoniPaleo]

If they ban machamp then I shall make sure every fighting type I use has Dynamic punch out of spite, I dont even care if it misses >:)

[@gfgbfn]

If Machamp is banned we lose modest specs champ though and that is far too great a cost.

[@tythecakelord445]

I've never played gen 4 OU and I could already tell this needs to get banned it's simply just uncompetitive its just coin flipping

[@Endless_Titan]

10:53 HE CONFUSED ALL OF MY RESISTS

[@CoronaMage]

[ **laughs in Slowbro** ]

[@jadonteino3438]

How I would make certain statuses more competitive( the first two are stolen from elite redux) Freeze: change to frost bite like LsA Confusion: adds recoil damage to all attacking moves Sleep: sleeping mons stay asleep indefinitely until taking damage

[@Decc_AK]

Sleeping until taking damage would be so awful due to being perfect bait for setup sweepers

[@jadonteino3438]

@ sleep already is, this just gives u control over it, and I mean ANY damage even hazards and sandstorm

[@Decc_AK]

Imagine how terrible any meta would be with the ability to spam butterfree and venomoth with compound eyes sleep powder + quiver dance the biggest two reasons they aren't meta defining is because they're frail enough to be dealt with when you're not asleep, and because you can wake up within 1-3 turns so you can actually luck out and stop a potential sweep this sleep change would be so unhealthy and just unfun to deal with, sleeps whole thing is having to get lucky so giving the user of sleep total control is genuinely a horrible decision this also means the person getting put to sleep cant do ANYTHING except switch or let their mon go down, option 1 leaves you open to an attack or leaves your opponent open to setting up further option 2 means you can get set up to all hell which most sleep users can and will exploit

[@hardrocklobsterroll395]

Complex ban. Just ban no guard dp. We gotta suspect individual strats rather than throwing old mons out in older gens. Head Rachi is the same issue.

[@TheFallfish]

Dynamic punch machamp should stay as punishment for never letting Electivire and Dusknoir from dropping to the lower tiers

[@ramblincapuchin9075]

My brother used to run this set and to quote Sergeant Jenkins "tough but not invincible" This is what happens when people are too reliant on cores to win the meta. My teams are always based around some gimmick that I just wanted to try The fun for me is experimentation. If it wins it wins. If it doesn't there's an opportunity for improvement. When you realize something you thought was neat doesn't work in unique situations, you have to rely on your impromptu skills to cut your losses I'm not saying all this to relay some feel good message like "it's not whether you win or lose" more importantly the more teams you explore, the more patterns you begin to notice in strategy. You're never going to have the ONLY team that covers all situations. But you _will_ know that running all normal types with only STAB moves is bound for failure Why doesn't that translate here? If you suspect a dynamic punch, all you need is a decent ghost type and you've got an unmissable hypnosis on your hands. Remember dream eater guys?

[@mrpiccionedivino5598]

lum berry + payback + bullet punch and you probably can't even manage to sleep It, and if you do you have 2 move slots specifically for machamp and nothing else, maybe have to invest for a bulky gengar or mismagius or waste an item slot on a colburberry too, like this Is beyond gimmicky, at least suggest own tempo slowbro

[@LtheOriginal]

Legit question, why is Machamp only considered a menace in Gen 4, when they can do this in any gen after 4 aswell?

[@Nick-yl4qp]

Better fighting types added after gen 4.

[@LtheOriginal]

@ I feel so cheated for an answer, but that makes sense

[@alkukayen4150]

@@Nick-yl4qpYeah gen 5 immediately adds Conkeldurr and Mienshao, and there's really not that much room for pure fighting types

[@jai249]

I like machamp visually, they say four arms is better than two, but I understand how it can make the game not nice for everyone

[@Quickbobhero]

The frustrating part is less about Machamp and more about how the council arbitrarily is making things worse for everyone by refusing to ban moves, having to resort to banning Machamp which doesn't really solve the fundamental issues of DPP. An Iron Head ban would make the format objectively better and yet they go into it. Thunder Wave also fits all of their criteria including a diversely spread move that causes 100% paralysis being objectively format warping and something nobody thinks is healthy, but they just won't because "policy" that nobody cares about and could easily change for older gens.

[@watercrystals9744]

the council are not "refusing to ban moves" lol they are literally not permitted to ban something if tiering administration doesn't allow them - this is exactly how it works for every single standardized metagame on smogon, whether it's gen 9 or gen 1 and guess what, tiering administration's job is to ensure everything adheres to what smogon's tiering philosophy and framework is, which means things like banning individual moves have strict requirements that have to met to be a consideration and thus if they do not meet those requirements, then tiering administration is going to reject the proposal and the council will have to reassess with the community about a different way of handling the situation

[@Quickbobhero]

@@watercrystals9744 The fact that Snow Cloak was able to go back and forth on being banned vs unbanned proves that 90% of this is arbitrary. A case for Iron Head or Dynamic Punch being inherently uncompetitive can be made but the councils have decided to have a bias against moves. The tiering admins also have no clue what they're doing in older gens and there's no reason more creative freedom shouldn't be allowed like in gen 3.

[@androsp9105]

Kinda funny that an ability that should lower variance ends up increasing it.

[@spongeb27]

I like Machamp, I think the format is better with it in, Dpunch is the problem not Machamp. Replace it with Cross Chop and you have a valid(ish) mon with no coin flip madness.

[@TheLaXandro]

I think the main difference between Jirachi and Machamp is that Jirachi's RNG abuse can be made very consistent. Using parafusion Jirachi is less literal 50-50 "Jesus take the wheel" and more "Stone Edge never misses!". You can do just flinch strats, but that's a half measure for Jirachi, you can have an actually reliable strategy a layer below. Machamp's Dynamic Punch is all the measure it has, it's a cheese sandwich except both breads are aslo cheese.

[@theosalvetti4790]

Pretty sad to see Machamp getting banned, but maybe it was good. Some years ago I did use Machamp quite a lot, but I never saw it as "uncompetitive". It was something that did lots of damage and confuses you (8 times), on a very slow pokemon very weak to chipping, and usually you can't bruteforce with him, unless the team facing you has no ghosts for some reasons. Since scouting was in order, using him as lead was good to know if it was gengar or rotom as the enemy ghost, but most likely you'll damage one pokemon and get killed, that wasn't that bad. When I played, arena trap wasn't banned at all (nor discussed as uncompetitive either to my knowledge) and I thought it was fine, so maybe i'm just delusional. Idk how the meta changed in the recent years too, maybe it became more problematic along the years

[@wentoneisendon6502]

Jimothy just wants to play pocket monsters

[@tobigrantlbart]

Simple: Just run Own Tempo Slowbro (I am joking)

[@zacherytaylor]

Really weird combination of bootlicking and complaining at the end there. We go from "happy to play" to "this is my moment". Like Jim, what are we doing? You don't have to like every format and they shouldn't all play the same.

[@EnergyBurst2]

I am against them being against/forbidding complex bans because sometimes a complex solution is just simply better on the whole than a simple solution that goes farther than is needed for solving a situation/problem and machamp and jirachi (and also froslass) I think fall into this category here and being stubborn or overly traditional/vanilla isn't a good excuse for ignoring that fact in my opinion.

[@MattyHAM]

But what about the ghouls, Jim

[@undercoverweeb]

Ah yes, another ban because a mod got salty.

[@XenithShadow]

6:20 pretty sure the policy was you can only ban an ability if all pokemon that have that ability have another ability. Its why sand veil wasn't banned until gen 5 dropped and garchomp got a second ability.

[@Alg3br4]

since in Gen 4 only the Machamp line has No Guard and it *also* has access to Guts, wouldn't this make a No Guard ban perfectly possible?

[@XenithShadow]

@@Alg3br4 Yeh, although no guard it self if dubious if it's a broken ability. I was more refering to them banning snow cloak in gen 4. This ontop of them also banning glaceon to ubers in gen 4 by doing this since it also only has snowcloak as an ability. A similar issue occurs in gen 7 where aloan sandshrew is banned into ubers due to slush rush and snow cloak both being banned. The evidence to support why you can't ban a pokemons only ability is that wobbafet and wynaut both got banned to ubers prior to gen 5, they didnt ban shadow tag.

[@Alg3br4]

(I can't find anything about a Slush Rush ban from Gen 7 OU...?)

[@subtodicerat8305]

Machamp dynamic punched me in the face and it made me unsub in confusion. I snapped out of confusion and subscribed back. Please ban him I don't want to get unsubbed again.

[@wobbieadam]

Own Tempo Slowbro is pretty good against Machamp, I've been testing it out on this suspect ladder since everybody is playing it

[@AngryAyrab]

This video became more unhinged as it went on 😂

[@probaddie456]

You make some compelling points, but have you considered the following water-tight argument for keeping Machamp in Gen IV OU: Wiggly giggily boo

[@shreyas_seshan]

As a machamp abuser in dp ou, I feel offended. Rightly so

[@Pumpost]

This is like my final straw towards the smogon higher ups in general. Yeah let’s ban Volc in gen 9 but let king kambit + iron valiant run around. The ban decisions are inconsistent in general IMO. I understand they tried to balance like 2 DLCs which brought format changes across the generation which makes old decisions outdated (palafin, chien pao, etc) and also the community decides on what is banned at the end of the day. However, they LEAD the decisions, meaning they choose what to test and what to leave alone. For the past 2 years it’s been inconsistent as far as decision making goes.

[@damippler8302]

The flavor of concussion punch is funny we can at least appreciate that Also i am friends with a higher performing gen 4 guy: they wanted a complex ban for rachi flinch but were told no