Think Twice Before Becoming a Scientist: PhDs Are Regretting Their Choice

Uncover the harsh realities of academic careers in 2024. This eye-opening video delves into the financial and career struggles faced by PhD graduates, comparing today's situation with insights from a 1999 article. Get informed about the risks and truths behind pursuing a career in science and research.
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▼ ▽ TIMESTAMPS
00:00 Intro
00:19 The Author
01:02 Do Something Else!
02:14 Struggles of young scientists
03:34 Comparing to other fields
04:33 Getting Rich?
05:27 Getting Trapped in Science
06:16 The "Lucky" Ones
07:55 The Brightside
08:52 What to Know Before You PhD
09:23 Conclusion
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[@DrAndyStapleton]

If you want to know more about the secret inner workings of academia - check out this video next: kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKOZo2anisZ4jNU

[@michaelhoudecki3657]

It's fraudulent! lol

[@boredscientist5756]

Lot of truth in this text 😂. I feel blessed to have found a position in Singapore right after my PhD. They made me permanent after a year, a huge miracle!

[@whitepouch0904]

What’s your citizenship? And is it easy to find job as a scientist if you’re a foreigner?

[@user-vw3pu4gl7p]

Is it easy as a foreigner to find permanent position ? Or luck by chance ?? Please please answer this ques

[@boredscientist5756]

@@user-vw3pu4gl7p I would say luck. I was here on the right project at the right moment (for a 2 years contract initially). My proposal afterwise went through and it changed everything, I became permanent.

[@boredscientist5756]

@@whitepouch0904 French

[@antman7673]

@@user-vw3pu4gl7p Or maybe it is just skill. If somebody is contributing, there is more reason to keep them.

[@preciousamaechi689]

I’m a first year PhD student here in the UK, and I love my research without any loss of enthusiasm. But this love ends with my PhD and not anything about academia. It’s so toxic, all I hear them speak of is papers, papers, grants, extremely toxic. I’m only here for the skills and experience. After that/prior to its end, industry is where I am gunning for!

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

I am gunning for a lottery win and then work in my own hobby lab. If only the odds weren`t so low.

[@TheHermitProcess]

And In industry it all about productivity, creating value, visibility. You’ll always find something to complain about. It’s all a toxic mess.

[@whitepouch0904]

It’s also toxic in the industry. I had a burnt out.

[@tzvi7989]

​@@TheHermitProcess biomedical research should create value though

[@TheHermitProcess]

@@tzvi7989 exactly my point. At the end of the day you need to provide value, and the metric in which it is measured will annoy the fuck out of you. How much money you created, saved, how much time to spent in the office versus someone else, How many papers did you write, did you help the schools ranking, did you create something that helps heal a ton of people but it lowers revenue for the pharma companies. There is no running away from that part of it I guess.

[@twm7154]

I find it intriguing that so many people are struggling with the decision to leave academia. For me, it was the easiest decision to make. I was so unhappy during my PhD that I was already looking and applying for industry jobs during the last few months before my defense.

[@christophdenner8878]

I also left for the industry after my PhD - but did you find a good life there? I didn't it. Most jobs I had in the last 17 years were abusive, some more, some less. But a balanced good life: not found. So I became a frugalist, saving most of my income so that I can retire as early as possible.

[@Valentin-oc5nh]

@@christophdenner8878well thats 95% of jobs for u in capitalism lol

[@sigh1685]

sunk cost fallacy in action

[@twm7154]

@@christophdenner8878I've only made the transition half a year ago, so I'm still at my first industry job in a small engineering firm. I like it so far.

[@TheHermitProcess]

Without your PHD you wouldn’t have gotten those jobs though.

[@HanadiH]

1999... and 25 years later this is sadly relatable. The system is outdated.

[@TakeTheRedPill_Now]

All very true. I am old now, graduated with a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics from Arizona State University in 1991. Did at postdoc at MIT for 2 1/2 years. No academic jobs in the field anywhere to be found. The competition for the few associate professor positions offered was intense, chances of success to get one of those low. Decided to leave the field and do 'menial' Industry work instead. It paid well. This anecdotal first-hand bit to show that the issue (DO NOT DO A POSTDOC) is not new. Strangely I have no regrets about obtaining a Ph.D. degree as it is a fun, mind expanding experience. Was for me, at least.

[@Valentin-oc5nh]

I mean also u can work for companies doing stuff in the field?

[@manonamission2000]

Menial, yet pays the bills... unlike "groundbreaking" work at below-poverty compensation.... I'll take the former

[@itechnwrite]

Got my Masters in 1991…and also found no perm jobs available. Ended up in a teaching job that I hadn’t planned on, getting less compensation, opportunities for advancement and stability than if I had simply gone into a professional trade. BIG mistake with long term consequences.

[@ronpearson1912]

As long as you can get a rate on the curriculum that does not require loans or to take much away from building your financial independence. To do science you need to be wealthy and paying exorbitant amounts for the program is counterproductive. Same with medical school, get tons of debt so you can go be an indentured servant for half a decade ... no thanks. IFF you can get the training without getting hustled/fleeced then you can use those skills to produce goods/services to sell outside of the USA. The USA has reached critical mass of regulation and the people capable of doing the work in these fields are waking up to the reality of the major scams this nation has set up, its going to get bad.

[@ronpearson1912]

@@itechnwrite if your masters is in stem you can still do trade work. If you are say a EE with a PE you can go test for your administrators licence today. It would be a good idea to work with a real electrician but it will be from the standpoint of a 2nd lt vs an E1 private. Both "don't know anything" but the experience between the 2 is very different. At the very least you simply won't put up with it as a EE/PE as opposed to an 18 year old kid who is nieve.

[@badinbrothers4931]

So much truth. I hold a doctorate from none other than Oxford, and it still took me a few YEARS to find the right job outside of Science. The idea that PhD's are the key to opening any job opportunity is old and dated. If you are a doctoral candidate you have 2 choices: 1. you continue in your specific field, earning 30k a year and spending upwards of 60% of your time writing grant proposals rather than doing actual research, or 2. Get out of Science, but that is ONLY possible if (like it says in the vid) you have built bridges beforehand with potential employers. I chose option 2 without networking with employers, meaning I was then too old and not experienced enough at age 28 to enter 'junior' positions in any field except manual work. That's right, despite having a PhD in neuroscience.

[@Vapourwear]

Maybe stop leading with “you know I’m an Oxford/Yale/Colombia/Harvard man” (why do you all feel the need to give your fucking CV before I know you from Adam?) and you’ll vastly increase the number of people that don’t immediately discount you as a….I’m looking got for a word other than “twat” but it isn’t coming.

[@thegooglearchipelago8253]

I did a physics PhD then turned my back on the whole thing and got a job software engineering with 0 connections and almost 0 effort at that age. I don't know if that's rare or not but whatever it is, it's definitely not impossible.

[@sanninjiraiya]

It doesn't help that recruiters and HR tend to avoid hiring PHD's for dumb reasons as well.

[@ChristAliveForevermore]

Symptoms of a crumbling society when you're as equally valued as an alcoholic laborer. I'm in the same boat, truth be told. The arts and sciences aren't just undervalued, they're admonished today. We are heading in a very dangerous direction.

[@myusernamerocks3]

Become an AI researcher. There is a lot of overlap with neurology, especially as more advanced AGI's are being developed. Lots of money and opportunities.

[@JambAndSee]

One of the biggest traps is getting a PhD without any job experience before hand. Finish your degree, get some experience in the field THEN do your PhD

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

Or just stick with your job and move up the career ladder internally.

[@andyiswonderful]

The problem is that if you get a job, you will start earning real cash, and your lifestyle will shift accordingly. Then, you will not want to give that all up and live like a poor person.

[@SpencerLemay]

@@andyiswonderful Unless you are the kind of person who doesn't have to spend all the money they have.

[@WhatWillYouFind]

Moreso NETWORK so you already have a few feet behind the door you want to become indoctrinated "joke" into. Experience is great, but who you know is far more important these days.

[@Volkbrecht]

That's not how academia works in Europe. The PhD is part of the education. "Dropping out" below that basically means entering a non-scientific career path. And it makes sense. I currently work in KSA, where it's apparently normal to start in industry with a Bachelors degree, then decide later whether or not to go to higher education. But these Bachelors are useless. They don't have the experience and mindest to be good technicians, and they have learned way too little to keep up with the real scientists.

[@littlebrit]

I came from industry to academia and I found it better. My sleep got better and life happier. I feel much younger while dealing with students. There is too much corruption in industry. There is corruption in academia too, but nobody dies in academia, when you don't do your job. Imagine putting low quality materials in building or cutting corners when designing a power plant. Also, you see how much tax payers money is being simply pocketed. Academia was a salvation for me.

[@WindowsXP_logon_sound_25yrsago]

The "sudden" collapse of notable residential buildings in the UK and the US over the last several years comes to mind

[@WindowsXP_logon_sound_25yrsago]

I can believe you 100%. Unfortunately it seems like there's no perfect harbor out there, but perhaps at least better ones. I'm happy you actually feel better in academia now. I guess it depends which types of nonsense we find easier to deal with. Considering I'd like to consider myself a person of high ethical standards and somebody who pills that we should always be striving to build a better world, I am not sure how long I could last in a dirty industry where people didn't have any scruples at all. As someone who is hard left of left, who seems to be getting more cynical about the thuggery of those that pull the strings by the day with no end in sight, I can only imagine the amorality and the absolute psychopathy even that takes place in high-level decision-making in an industry when the only thing that matters is extracting that very last buck or that last penny no matter how many lives might be compromised, harmed or being lost. And since government is always always on its knees to industry, and sometimes the other way around, but never EVER doing their job as the watchdog that they're supposed to, of course the cycle continues decade after decade and (for now), century after century. Do you think I'm exaggerating at all?? Or do you think I get it?

[@Natural_Science-Philosophy]

@@WindowsXP_logon_sound_25yrsago The comrade gets it. I wasn't keen on joining profit-only-seeking industries so I'll just stick in academia for the sake of my sanity, and best of luck.

[@kkhalifah1019]

My wife described postdoc as 'purgatory for clever people'. She avoided it like the plague the second she got her PhD in food science and was fortunate enough to be able to go straight into R&D in Denmark as a researcher. She wholeheartedly agrees that postdocs do what lab technicians do in R&D, who typically only need to hold undergraduate degrees - they execute experiments and tests required by the research work spearheaded by researchers who are the PhD holders. Back home in Malaysia years later, she was offered to teach at a university due to her industry experience but the pay was insulting compared to what she was getting at the time as a Lead Researcher in R&D. Now she's in management and realized this is where the big money actually is. lol.

[@zwegyi1000000]

I left academia after 3.5 years of postdoc and joined the public sector. Best decision I have ever made. I do not regret the years spent pursuing PhD at all but regret not leaving academia sooner. Sure it is not all roses but trust me, it's miles better than the weight of uncertainty in academic limbo as a perpetual postdoc. If you are looking for a sign to exit academia, this is it.

[@ethanmyers8499]

I'm coming towards the end of my PhD now and I have to admit, academia is the last place I want to end up. The amount of work, effort and reward for the roles just don't add up. My supervisor's supervisor when she was on her PhD died at a young(ish) age from heart problems due to stress and being overworked. The problem is for many people in my position, we cannot see where the other prospects lie and the potential paths. Through the academic door, there is a dull and flickering light. Through the 'industry' door, I see nothing but a dark room. Yet I am still drawn towards the dark room over the dimly lit one - which probably speaks volumes to the state of academia.

[@Volkbrecht]

I wonder what gives you this bad perspective on industry. Yes, you have to apply for your projects. But even in academia you are not fully free to do what you want, you are still chasing the hype of the moment when you want funding. In industry at least you get well trained staff and decent equipment, and since there is usually a race on to monetize whatever you are working on, you can be sure that you work on the cutting edge of whatever field you are in, otherwise your company wouldn't bother with the work you do.

[@dadonkas5541]

Dying of stress has got to be one of the worst ways to go about

[@ethanmyers8499]

@@Volkbrecht it's not so much that it is a "bad" perspective on industry. It is just the fact that the path is not very well lit at all and it's hard to see exactly where it can lead. It's clear that the university, in pursuing your PhD qualification, is building you up to be an employee at their institution at least for a short while. They do not necessarily have the incentive to tell us about the much better opportunities lying elsewhere in industry.

[@sisamhlan33]

I feel like I have stopped learning in my master/PhD. I just do grants all day. I don’t want to do research anymore. I hate it. So stressed because I feel like I have to start all over again

[@suhasrb2396]

I'm 5 years into the program now! Lost last 2 years due to personal issues! I've never been the same since! School doesn't care about you! They just want that degree pumped out! I'm out of funds and still can't get a fucking meeting with advisor! Too scared to quit because I'm an international in the USA and my parents spent a lot of money on school! I'm yet to finish my proposal defence! Have been locked up my room for days at times! Smoked pot and drank for months at a stretch! Feeling like stagnant water sucks! And the worse case there is nothing you can do about it! You're at the mercy of the advisors and on thier timeline to meet and schedule things! I'm 30 now! My 20s feels wasted! Just need some guidance now! Used all the things Andy taught me to publish my first paper though.!

[@lzkrishmom]

Switch career...I did that at age 32.

[@suhasrb2396]

@@lzkrishmom thinking long and hard! Will do it asap!

[@Chelzebelles]

Do what your heart calls you to do, please do not feel like a failure if that means leaving the program. Your life is more important than any title.

[@robertlipka9541]

I got a professional job towards the end of my PhD... not even in my field. Finished it off while earning a salary. It also started with running out of money after some issues extended my PhD and I started doing silly part time jobs just for some cash... then when I added up the time in the part time jobs, I decided to go full time and in a professional job.

[@geometerfpv2804]

Sometimes you just have to admit you made a mistake, and that research is not for you. Obviously it is taking a huge toll on your health. The people who succeed at it love it and crave it, and are willing to take low salaries if it means they get to do more of it. Best to stop whacking your head up against it and go do something you actually enjoy.

[@Mountaineer170]

Very helpful as a person who is just finishing his PhD. Would be great if you could make videos on the transition from PhD to industry , especially in non-comp sci engineering related fields.

[@fzuliani74]

You are clever and can work independently on complex problems. That's enough to start anywhere. Experience will follow. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, even if you get rejected.

[@skeletorlikespotatoes7846]

Could I ask some questions

[@fzuliani74]

@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846to whom?

[@Volkbrecht]

There is no "transition". You apply for jobs, then go to work once you got one. The people there will tell you what they expect from you. End of story.

[@AlgoNudger]

That's why, many people prefer trade school (pursuing vendor's certificates and licenses) than college, nowadays. 😊

[@kenofken9458]

The trades can be a good alternative, but it has its downsides too. Every single guy I've ever known in the manual trades is essentially crippled by the time they're 60. Hip replacements, knee replacements, shoulder surgery. I mean you'd think these guys were 87 if you saw most of them. A fair number of them die young from alcohol or opioid abuse, in some cases precipitated by the pain of chronic injuries. When they are working, it's often 60 or more hours a week, sometimes with daily commutes of three or four hours. It is a hell of a grind. The ones who work in solid union states make good money, but is it worth it if it takes 10 years off your life and 20 or more off of your quality years? In non-union states, a lot of them are making near minimum wage with no benefits at all.

[@michaelstrang2563]

@kenofken9458 General contractors, construction management, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and those who transition from a worker to owning their own company, which is very easy and common will not harm them selves physically and will make as much or more than a doctor if they want to. My friend just maid 400k in a week profit simply scheduling subcontractors to fix a slate roof, add drainage around the building, and remove asbestos. He gets 20% of all the work, so on big multi million dollar jobs every phase he is making more in a week or month than the most successful people will make in a year. Also a lot of electricians can make thousands upon thousands a day and none of the work is really taxing on your body at all.

[@razmiddle9410]

@@michaelstrang2563 From what you describe, it sounds like unless you're an electrician, you're either breaking your own body or (if you become the owner) making profit off breaking other's bodies in the same way that your body was being broken. Is that better?

[@Volkbrecht]

@@kenofken9458 Here's a fun fact, though: manual labor doesn't HAVE to be crippling. I was taking an OSHA course once (I'm a lab-tec), and one of the instructors there told me a "funny" story: from the safety side, there is a lot of consciousness regarding the health demands of physical labor, and consequently, there is a lot of equipment and training available to mitigate that problem. But apparently there is a certain culture of toxic masculinity on construction sites where the workers among themselves shame people into performing feats of strength, like carrying heavy stuff without "wasting time" to get the lifting equipment, or not taking the recommended breaks for relaxing and stretching when working in uncomfortable positions.

[@billyoung8118]

@@razmiddle9410 more or less you are describing every job that has ever existed in any field.

[@deezynar]

Universities exist to make money for themselves. Educating people is the product they sell, but universities do not care if the degree programs they provide end up being economically rewarding for their graduates. In fact, I would say that universities believe that thinking about the financial future of their students is beneath them. They believe that only trade schools are really concerned about that issue. And trade schools are low class and far beneath the dignity of a university. Most nations have let their universities get out of control. Politicians have cooperated with the university heads to pass laws that funnel more money to schools, and give them even greater monopolies on higher education. Average voters need to yell and scream at our politicians to remove the laws that give universities monopolies. We need to open things up so there is a lot more competition in higher education.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Not sure which country you are in, but in the US the amount of government funding for universities has been declining for decades, which has made college tuition vastly more expensive than in my day. A lot of politicians now don’t want to support K-12, let alone higher education.

[@deezynar]

@@aliannarodriguez1581 Are you aware that law in the U.S. makes it illegal to run a university in a metal shed? The most technologically advanced products in the world are made in metal sheds, but U.S. universities are forced to constantly build new buildings made of the most expensive materials. This is not about competition between schools, it is about government regulation creating unnaturally high expenses for universities that maintain monopolies for the established institutions. Harvard has more than enough money in the bank that they never have to charge any student a penny, but that's not part of their value system. Harvard isn't the only one, either. None of what U.S. universities do puts education forward as their main motivation.

[@WindowsXP_logon_sound_25yrsago]

4-year tuition needs to be forced to come way down one way or another, that much is true. They are indeed profit factories, otherwise why would tuition continually rise so steeply??? This has lead to the criminal and exploding student loan crisis. (in the US)

[@marianhunt8899]

​@@deezynarthe buildings are Privately owned that is why they keep them in tip top condition. The buildings are valuable assets for the super wealthy. The student is definitely not their priority. You're there to be financially fleeced to make the private owners wealthy. It's a big club, and you're not in it. The 1% are addicted to profit.

[@Volkbrecht]

Here's the interesting thing, though: in Europe most universities are publicly funded, but the problems around higher education and the mismatch between supply and demand for graduates are mostly the same.

[@wonderwinder1]

If you aren’t being offered to be paid to get your phd, you shouldn’t do it.

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

PhDs are paid. But sadly most of them seem to want to pay you only 50%, while making you work 200%.

[@khanalprabhat]

Worse is when you have to move between different countries with different languages. Moving between UK and Australia is easier than moving between Germany and France.

[@Volkbrecht]

You selected the worst examples there. Two nations whose language isn't too relevant in the rest of the world, who don't like each other much and who tend to be a little butthurt when you live there without learning the language. And this is coming from a German ;)

[@khanalprabhat]

@@Volkbrecht Yeah, but that is the truth. This is also perhaps one of the main reasons why the US is still the most popular destination for researchers to go (especially for Ph.D. and Postdoc work) despite Europe having far better living standards than the US.

[@AWOL401]

@@khanalprabhatimagine thinking Europe has a higher standard of living than the U.S. 😂

[@richardedward123]

How to identify and overcome the bad bits whilst doing a PhD. That's key. I'd like to hear more on this. Thanks for the video. Excellent as always. Cheers from San Antonio, Texas, USA.

[@sebasFS]

Thanks for sharing these advices!

[@BigBrothersEnd]

That's the hard truth, and we all need to be confronted to it once in a while! Thanks for sharing these advices!

[@Mobius_Pizza]

Postdoc is only a transition post, do a max of 2 years and move to permant post in academia, or just go to industry. Look also for international opportunities.

[@Suresh8848m]

Andy: This is a great eye-opening video, and you explained it so wonderfully. Amazing job, and please keep going. :)

[@Thesisdoctor]

Another great vid, Andy! Coming from the humanities, I would echo the same sentiments. If I didn't become self employed, I'm not sure what route I could've taken. The PhD encourages niche, but the more niche you go, the more niche your CV will be!

[@YamanoRyuu]

self employed doing what?

[@Thesisdoctor]

@@YamanoRyuu I run a proofreading and editing and thesis support business. I have a youtube channel also like Andy, though it's still in its infancy 🐸

[@YamanoRyuu]

@@Thesisdoctor Nice. I want to become independent too, but I haven't come up with a good idea yet.

[@Thesisdoctor]

@@YamanoRyuu I would say a good idea would be how to videos. If you're a watcher of KZbin you probably picked up some ideas on how to do videos better or how to create more engaging content. Some smaller channels would benefit from that type of content. That's the trend I'm seeing right now. Watching those how to vids made me realise I could start a channel too 😊✊

[@Nicole-kc1vx]

I wonder how many people actually think they will be in academia after their PhD? Even though this is anecdotal, a lot of PhD students I talk to, and myself included, don't want to go into academia. I wanted the short-term contract nomadic lifestyle, I learnt during my studies, and after getting my 1st job, I don't like staying in one place for too long, therefore having a 2-3 year contract works much better for me, and whenever I feel like settling down I will just go into industry. Most students I talk to have this similar mindset. I personally pursued the PhD for fun! I'm not concerned about the job market afterwards, cause when I was doing my undergrad and masters I received this same doom and gloom speech from others, but I found a job before I even graduated!

[@esdras4657]

I've been debating this, I was offered a nice PhD in Montreal, and I want to do it for the experience and because I wanna learn more, but I've been scared whether I should do it or not because I don't want to work in academia and I'm scared finding a job after the PhD would be too hard 😅 (I'm in engineering)

[@aeiou0123]

@@esdras4657there r always jobs for engineers.

[@alicianieto2822]

Man you either were insanely lucky or your family has an insanely good network/ gives you a great support network

[@Nicole-kc1vx]

@@esdras4657 it's up to you, getting offered good PhD positions is hard as well. I remember when I started applying I was anxious cause I heard how many tries it took my previous university supervisors before they were able to get one. I only applied to 3, and I got accepted by the 3rd one. It was fully funded for 42-months, and I don't have to teach or do anything other than the project during it. If you think the PhD gets you closer to working in jobs you desire, go for it. If you are doing it solely because you want to learn/contribute new knowledge, I still say go for it. You will get so many brilliant opportunities to network/gain experience during the PhD that will increase your employability in various sectors, if you are happy to move to a new area or country to pursue jobs you desire, you never have to be worried about employment. If you are scared of leaving your job to pursue a PhD, maybe see if your job offers opportunities to do further study whilst working? At my previous place of employment, I could have done a PhD whilst working there, but my project would have to be related to the department I was in and it would need to benefit said department. I didn't want the stress of working and doing a PhD, nor did I want to do a project related to the place I was working at. If your current job doesn't offer these opportunities, and you are set on staying employed whilst working, then find a job that does! There are many institutions that give opportunities for further study/qualifications.

[@Nicole-kc1vx]

@@alicianieto2822 my family certainly has no connections in the field I worked in, my dad was a bus driver and mother is a midwife. I wouldn't call it luck, because after a year working in my 1st permanent job, I was looking for jobs closer to home and I was offered positions easily, I turned them all down because I was also offered my PhD position. If you aren't making it to the interview stage, check your CV, ask others if you can see theirs and use it as a template, also ask people to check your CV. Before my permanent position, I was on a short term contract, I needed to apply for the permanent position so I asked my line manager at the time (who had experience conducting interviews for the job I was applying for, and has read countless CVs for it) and other people in my department to help me, and they kindly did. My line manager checked my personal statement, the answers I prepared for the interview, and my CV, and my co-worker sent me their CV and the answered they prepared for certain interview question so I had a template. When I was applying for a PhD, one of my supervisors for my masters degree sent me the project advert cause she thought it was a great fit for me, she also helped me extensively with my research statement, personal statement, academic CV and the presentation I needed to prepare for the interview. Maybe I have been lucky, because I have been surrounded by people who are willing to help me when I ask. Or maybe you just aren't asking for help enough? You're not guaranteed to get a job with this method, but it may at least point out errors in your applications that you can't see.

[@gsal227]

Thanks as always for your videos, Andrew! Agreed with some other folks that it would be interesting if you had some content in the future discussing the realities of the industry/"alt. academic" market places and what perhaps folks in your network in those positions could pass along to PhDs trying to escape academia about how to tackle this transition. Personally, like others have said here, it's a no brainer for me to want to leave academia. The alt. ac. job markets though have just been so bad in past years that it feels like for me and many others that we have been trapped on the academic/postdoc treadmill not by choice, but because there are so few opportunities to get out that you have to stay if you want any semblance of pay or insurance (at least in the US). I'm sure this is field specific of course (neurobiologist here not doing neurodegenerative work, so whomp whomp), but would really be interested to see if you were able to find a way to produce some more videos addressing those topics to help inform the next gen of academic hopefuls about what to expect on the other side once they fully commit to leaving academia!

[@PharmacyBrain]

Everything is saturated now. Everything. I feel like, as an old millennial, this happened some time after high school. You need to be in the top 5 or 10 percent or whatever to get anything desirable now. We're out of physical space in desirable cities, so i hope you're a top ten percent earner because that's the only realistic way to buy a house once we're out of space to develop new houses. Want a desirable job? Same thing, degree doesn't mean anything. You need to be a top performer with exceptional skills and experience. I feel like the average person making it through even a high level PhD program is pretty well doomed. It doesn't help that admission standards have plummeted to grow class sizes and revenue.

[@smallbluemachine]

Same, old millennial here too. I think it's a good start to recognise market saturation. Many don't recognise this due to passion, and find themselves reaching burn out in a hyper competitive space. It doesn't make sense to compete for the obvious prizes. I don't have an answer here, because it's something I'm looking for too. I think it's important to do things you normally wouldn't. Go uncommon places, meet uncommon people. Enter another industry, find the singular time and place where there's little to no competition for you. "Go after inspiration with a club".

[@whatisrokosbasilisk80]

Care less, embrace the suck. Love Gen Z.

[@ndidiahiakwo7412]

You're the best Andy, always!

[@ch.k4580]

Hi Andrew, thanks for this great video. Well, yesterday I decided to leave academia now for good and told it my PI. We both agreed that I just don't have the best starting conditions for a good academic career anymore, since my doctor father just screwed up my career. But I am really happy he was supportive and I will make the best out of my PostDoc now. Learning more skills and also finishing my projects. And then I will see where I go and in the meantime I start something for myself! Thanks for having this great mission. This is essential and I started to tell Master students what they might await at the other side! Thanks and have a great day!

[@kenneth_romero]

thanks for the insight. i think it really helped me put into perspective what i want to do.

[@annawalsh1904]

I go to the college Prof Katz teaches at! Glad he is educating students and giving good advice.

[@kundaidube0505]

Indeed I thought the industry is better than academia long term , but what do I know 🤷‍♀️ .I guess one learns best from doing. Love your insightful videos Andrew !

[@Matthew21v42]

I did 1.5 years of a 2 year Post doc back in 1993 at Stanford University. I bailed out early and it was my best decision ever. Academia has always been a scam. It was funny when I resigned the professor I worked for was shocked that I left. Afterwards I founded the Ex Post Doc Society which helped Post Docs get jobs outside of Academia. Get out soon.

[@ItsWhoIAmItsHowILive]

I think about the video of that guy who spent 15 years studying a specific bird. He said he regretted the entire journey.

[@matthewpeloso2172]

I did a PhD as a challenge and proud of it. Publishing was enjoyable and that's a good milestone. You learn something interesting. When I looked at doing post-docs I realised that, wasn't for me.... as a career it's not a great thing. You have two jobs, teaching and research. It's up to you to make something from it.

[@ToudaHell]

I was literally born into academia.(my entire family on both sides worked and lived in a prodigious research institute since long before i was born) 35 years later, I'm a bookkeeper instead because i got sick of the toxicity in the ivory towers. The academic life doesn't suit everyone.

[@BsktImp]

Can only speak for myself but, yes, undertaking a science PhD was the biggest mistake I ever made. Should've gone straight into industry after A levels, learned a technical / engineering trade & business on the job + law or CS/SE via distance learning or night school. Even back in the day the mood music was that science PhD courses were churning out 'slightly brainy' lab technicians not Paul Diracs.

[@Heyu7her3]

Well those jobs are being pushed out by the same AI they've developed, so

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Dirac is a pretty high bar!

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

Most companies are mainly looking for lab technicians in manufacturing and quality control. Here in Germany we have a very good apprenticeship system. I totally regret not having done an apprenticeship as a lab technician at one of the mega corporations instead of studying. A phd is actually overkill for most jobs that are on the market. Most phd roles are leading roles where you manage people and don`t really do reasearch and honestly it´s not the kind of work I want to do, but it`s where the money is. Research and development positions are rarer than the number of PhDs. And it seems like there are more PhDs than Masters, so that for many research and development roles which even a Masters could easily handle, they are expecting a Phd. Honestly, industry jobs suck. But they pay way better and you don`t have the publish or perish pressure.

[@BsktImp]

@@maythesciencebewithyou Completely agree with the apprenticeship route - the studying and research projects can always be done later and arguably hold more relevance against a groundng in a real world commercial/industry lab & business experience and life. Not that I'd stop anyone doing a first and higher degree straight after school, I just think for most people, who will never be top level researchers, a PhD is as you rightly observe overkill.

[@francishunt562]

@@aliannarodriguez1581 An amusing fact about Dirac is when he formulated what's known as Dirac notation, he called it 'bra' and 'ket' ; later insisting he didn't know that a bra was women's underwear.

[@os2171]

sad but true... I just finished my phd... after 2 MSc... in search of postdoc I discovered is super competitive and that the money is short...and that I might need to be there another 4-6 years... 2-3 positions? I kind of regret believing the Academia fallacy; I still love science... but resources are limited, bullying is more common really common (is the norm), there are no jobs. Isn't that I am quitting Academia, there's no space, no job, is underpaid, they require more than 60 hours per week... my last 1.5 years without funding... transitioning to the real world.

[@alainatemnkeng8302]

As I listen to this video, I am 80% through my PhD in IT, and this video is definitely beneficial. Thanks for sharing!

[@MikeEnergy_]

excellent video. Most phd students I know want to work at a company but there are limited positions even for that currently.

[@twentytwentyeight]

Dr. S, this was a sentiment I didn’t realize I needed to hear. Do you have advice for late bloomers with the same rosy glasses? I want to go into academia after I get a bit farther in my career, but now wonder if there are avenues for getting involved in research without leaving the professional world altogether only to potentially stagnate post-doc ❤

[@Scientist287]

PhD in theoretical physics. I got a job right out of grad school because I was lucky that a friend I did homework with in college was at a successful job and recommended me… I didn’t have any other prospects, it’s incredibly hard to find the job right out of grad school folks.

[@MarkMcLT]

Seems smarter to do a PhD in engineering. You're doing research. You're doing science. But you're focused (ideally) on problems that are much more likely to make you valuable in the real world.

[@aselkiesdream]

I am working on a PhD with a specialization in general psychology. While I think your video holds an interesting perspective, it also is good to understand the intent for each individual wanting to pursue a PhD. There are many other routes other than being hired by a university to extend the knowledge to others. For example, creating a website for consulting, education, independent research, and more. This is an optimal time to get the PhD and for this very reason. It is good not not equate knowledge with monetary gain. Perhaps evaluating your intentions, goals, and pursuits is the best way to evaluate the choice instead of placing a value of "good" or "not so good" on the endeavor based solely on hiring statistics ( look more on the qualitative rather than the quantitative). The numbers can be informative. However, there is more to measure and understand.

[@DoctorLoganPhD]

I am super lucky. I got a great tenure-track professorship very early in my career. I didn't have to move, I have wonderful colleagues, and a supportive administration. It is a gamble to chase the dream, but sometimes it really pays off. Well, not "pays", but you know what I mean. :)

[@maythesciencebewithyou]

For the lucky few it does. For the vast majority it doesn`t. Most graduates are better off in industry. However, the demand for scientists in industry isn`t as high as the number of graduates. But you can salvage your PhD to work in something research unrelated, even if that wasn`t your goal. It would honestly make more sense if most students just did a company apprenticeships and be trained to do the jobs that are in demand by the companies themselves.

[@saphone9758]

Sure. And why are you watching this video? Lucky!

[@ShyamDas999]

Hello Andy. I am doing post docs. from 2013. I did my PhD from India in computational fluid dynamics. Then I moved to Portugal to do my first post doc in 2013. Then in 2015, I moved to Brazil to do my second post doc in UnB. Since then I am in Brazil. Changing universities after universities. I am trying to escape from this post doc trap.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Computational fluid dynamics? Have you thought about working for a commercial space company?

[@trananhkiet167]

Yes , in a period from 1900 to 2006 . there were a lot of predictions or note on the field that a person doing, and it still true nowaday . some time look back to inherit the awareness before too late . thanks to internet and previous generation , that s precious experience.

[@Bailiol]

Was offered PhD positions from both Cambridge and St Andrews - changed my mind after applying and declined (ignored) them both. Considering the internet and technological development in their current forms in combination with the decline of both academic institutions and the value of degrees, the opportunity cost of a PhD simply can't be justified contra DIY-information generation.

[@sirmclovin9184]

Interesting point.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

The opportunity cost of a PhD is very high indeed, and unlike in the case of medical doctors and electricians, employers are often reluctant to pay for that hard won expertise. I think we are long way from being able to duplicate PhD training via DIY methods though.

[@alenabezouskova1655]

I am just about to appy for a PhD (humanities tho) and this does soud scary. I want to do it because I simply find my discipline exciting. I will most probably do it. I am not interested in building a career outside of academia, so I don't feel that I am missing out on something. But I am definitely terrified that it will ruin my relationships - that instability, moving all the time...

[@khaledalazab5144]

I believe you are the voice of truth! Would you provide the most up-to-date ai tools that beat the stupidity of detection tools.

[@jakoblindelof92]

I feel sorry for PHD students because you kind of have to understand that someone who graduated with a PHD say 2023 has had a long run. I mean say a bsc is 3 years than masters 2 years than phd 4 years. That is almost ten years. Which means that they started their BSC degree in 2014, the world was kind of different then. We did not have brilliant videos/channels like this then. I do not have a PHD, but I regret studying even BSC in engineering, the marke is saturated and the academic system is not what it was in the 80s/90s.

[@aeiou0123]

I hope you are expanding your job search beyond engineering jobs? Your skills r highly valued in the financial markets as well

[@jakoblindelof92]

@@aeiou0123 well thanks for reply have found a job in sales/logistics, would definetly call it underemployed but I have no time to be picky right now so will choose it and hopefully do well.

[@mysterion4301]

Retired PhD, 70 years old. It's a different world today than it was 40 years ago and I probably wouldn't pursue the degree in the present environment. Young people go in loving their field, and then get eaten up by being forced to crank out mundane papers or work on applied research that never challenges their brains again. I left academia after six years and went to make some money ... glad I did.

[@Whatimadefordinner]

Hello , I want to be a research in the field of neuroscience. I am about to go to university and my major is neuroscience. Is there any advice you can give me for when I’m done with my bachelor’s degree hopefully.

[@johnsmith1953x]

*There was an article in SCIENCE back in the 1990s* that stated there were too many PhDs and they will have issues what you just stated. This was way back in the 1990s. Its WORSE now!!

[@nuthead8888]

I’ve been in industry for two years, a place I never wanted to be but ended up taking due to a desperation for stability after several disasters in a row including the pandemic occurring during my senior year in college. So I eschewed physics, gave up on my research, got a master’s degree in engineering just to graduate at the beginning of the tech bust. Laid off since August now, I started applying to PhDs because honestly where else can I go with my skillset since not a soul is hiring a new-ish engineer? I’ve heard the rumors but it can’t be as bad as the workplace abuse I’ve suffered due to my disabilities and the nature of startup culture, can it? And besides, I love school, I love working on discoveries and pushing boundaries, and I don’t care much about money as long as I can afford a roof over my head. It’s all I want, isn’t it? But I desire stability in a world that routinely reminds me that it wants nothing to do with me. I wanted to be an actor once but gave up on that dream as a bid for stability. I studied physics due to my penchance for calculus and my insatiable curiosity for the world. I used to dance for pocket money. I can’t even walk dogs now, as I can barely walk to begin with, which is why my last workplace may have dropped me (they won’t admit it but it’s kind of suspicious that they laid me off days after I applied for PFMLA for a surgery that would hopefully allow me to eventually regain my ability to walk). I was an accomplished engineer with so many projects under my belt. I was a bright physicist with a novel and revolutionary research project that got killed by the pandemic and general grief. What else can I do at this point? The only prospect I can think of at this point is OnlyFans, honestly. I’m going to attend vocational counseling through my intensive physical rehabilitation clinic and I hope for the best. But I wonder if the money I had wasted on PhD applications was at all worth it?

[@Funzelwicht]

Sooooooooooooo right, man!

[@YangMills]

Guys I need your advice/suggestions. I was so fascinated by particle physics ever since high school and decided to become a physicist. I came to know about how academia works and the postdoc issues only during the final year of my undergrad. Are these issues present all over the world or are they existing only in North America, Europe and Australia? Just got curious about this question ( interested to know about Asia). Now I'm about to finish my undergrad and wondering whether I should enroll for a phd or not. I feel extremely confused on whether I should let go of my ambition and follow some other route which I also find interesting ( I do like electronics) or follow my ambition and give academia a try. Any suggestions from you guys are warmly welcomed. Thanks in advance!

[@MK-it7jm]

I'm graduating my Master's this year and I'm currently in the process of enrolling to a PhD program. My masters is in chemistry (mostly bio-). I see this PhD as an opportunity to retrain because the PhD is in bioinformatics in a dry lab. I'm already self-taught to some extent (i know Python and some ML and DL) but that project would certainly give me more relevant experience. I come from a developing country and the PhD is in Europe, so the salary is pretty good up to my standards. After that my plan to get a job in some biotech or pharmaceutical company either in Europe or in my country. I don't think I'll go for a postdoc. What do you guys think? Does this sound like a solid plan?

[@drjahanzeb1135]

I feel very difficult to keep sending cv for an academic position, after 11 years experience of academic job. And in last trying to learn corporate/ industrial sector's job techniques from my students.

[@riianiu]

So true 😢

[@fzuliani74]

So true. Liked my phd. Left academia after my first postdoc. Wish i did it before, just after phd graduation. But, quite frankly, how can a phd supervisor prepare the phd students to land a career outside of academia when he/she does not have any such experience whatsoever? I am not trying to be nasty simply I cannot get what you would like academia to do...

[@wychan7574]

The basic quantitative skills you need to pursue a career in the industrial sector can be acquired in the stem undergraduate curriculum. Graduate school prepare you for specialization and research in the academic world. Basically if you are talented and technically competent you should be able to carry out research after a masters or even a good undergraduate training. Phd is a very time consuming and psychologically taxing program and not really necessary unless you are lucky to find a good mentor who is willing to guide you through your thesis and path your way for fruitful publications.

[@GeoffryGifari]

Can you post the link to the article?

[@richardtobing5012]

Does this trend hold true across all disciplines? I was strongly considering getting my Phd in computer science, particularly with a focus on AI since it seems thats the direction the world is going in, and that was the plan since I was 10 years old, but this video is giving me some second thoughts.

[@robertomartinez7268]

Yeah! That's right.

[@profdc9501]

What incentive do advisors or universities have to prepare Ph.D. students for employment outside of the academy? Advisors and universities aren't interested in skills in benefits that do not benefit research and raising grant money. At best, particular advisors or programs may have affiliations with industrial partners they get research funding from, and therefore may direct students toward after graduation.

[@tinyleopard6741]

The second part you said "at best", that sounds like a huge deal and a huge incentive. Out of curiosity, why is it not "at least"? Is it rare or there's like a competing interest?

[@RedVio972]

@@tinyleopard6741 You may already know this, but i'll clarify just to be sure: "at best" usually means "in the most optimal plausible scenario" in this context, often with a negative/pessimistic tone. It doesn't mean that it's the ideal situation, just the best you may get from something (but without much expectation)

[@DrJinh007]

I left academia few years ago after many years of postdoc in Boston, MA. I found that industry so much better. Better pay (3 times more than a postdoc salary), better work life balance. etc... Although I tell everybody who is in academia to switch to industry, I feel bad for them right now. The job market is just crazy because of so many layoffs in the biotech sector here in MA. For many entry scientific position, there are so many candidate applying for same position (up to 200). I hope the situation changes soon for the better!

[@scottguitar8168]

I don't think it is just Ph.d's, most of what you said seems to apply across the scale of educated/trained individuals when it comes to working for someone else. Especially having your vision of what the career will look like vs. what the career actually is when you arrive.

[@Ottobon]

Oh nice its the beard guy who helped me out when i was starting beard journey along with few other important channels, that sheet wrapping method helped before i learned how to use heat. Academics sounds brutal, wish there was a way for students to look into what paths are actually needed but universities just sell you whatever they can like used car salesmen out here.

[@fletchoid]

I saw the writing on the wall soon enough to stop at a MSc. I was lucky enough to get a tech job in a teaching hospital. I escaped from the research lab by becoming a Med Lab tech (which did not require an MSc). Over the course of my career the labs I worked in turned out a number of MScs in Microbiology and Molecular Biology. The graduates with those degrees saw the writing on the wall. Two of them are now paramedics (which they did not need a MSc for). One went to work in the auto industry some went to dental school or Med school, and the others left for various non-science jobs. So many of the people who graduated with me left the field after one or two years working at low paid tech jobs. And now my country whines that we need more scientists and then hires them from outside the country. Non of my children went into the sciences. They wanted to actually earn a living.

[@GoldAMG]

Computer Science is best!

[@maggie6152]

This is so sad to me because I love science and know that scientists and researchers are so important to society.

[@shaun2133]

This is interesting. I often regret not going to Graduate school, it seems most undergraduate majors only have value if you go to Grad school, but hearing this video it sounds like I would have been more stuck (in loans) if I had gone on to more school. I guess I'll never know.

[@MissAsdfb99]

I always had a desire to do PhD since 18 19th years old (now I am 25) but I have nothing to do with title or getting rich. I just work for myself and I just want to discover something and make an innovation. I want to find something so that the world changes or contribute to the human health. I love to be around the people that they have same interest with me. I love to talk science and solve problems with them. So I have no other option to do PhD to continue these desires. You tell me what can I do other? Even PhD is hard and you have difficulties with people. I have no chance to care because I want to discover something and do research.

[@favourokunbi1079]

Thank You. This is just me.❤

[@nicole5733]

Can you let me know what other options I can do after my bachelors instead of going into academia (eg bsc biotechnology)

[@jonathanqaqish8972]

This is so true. I completed my honours in chemistry and I couldn’t even find an entry-level job. Now I’m doing my masters in engineering medical engineering and I’m planning on either going to teacher college or medical school because that’s better than doing any research or being any scientist because of the lifestyle.

[@kalj1939]

How long did you search?

[@XenonJohnD]

Medical school might be just a tad harder to get into than teacher training college. Just warning you ahead of time.

[@DrunkenUFOPilot]

I left a Physics PhD program. Two big reasons, though there were more. I had passed the Qualifier Exam but not started on a thesis. That was my exit point. One is that I saw professors dealing with writing grant proposals, writing other things, managing students, managing other stuff, organizing, and hardly ever getting their hands on the lab equipment. Professors are more like executives than hands-on explorers of the frontiers of knowledge. That's not strictly true for everyone, but it's the pattern. The other reason was I loved getting my hands on sensors, building electronic gizmos, fiddling knobs, tweaking things to get more signal out of the noise. The academic path does allow that, but working as an engineer at a manufacturer of sensors or electronic thingamabobs is a *lot* more like that. And pays better! I was getting tired of living in a bare bones way, my only furniture a cheap metal folding chair, a desklamp, and a cheap estate sale bed. At the time, it was easy to get into software. Anyone who could make an LED blink by writing machine code on a microprocessor could get a job. So I did! No regrets.

[@LoveCoffee123]

I did a PhD in London and postdocs in the US. I completely concur.

[@scholarmanish]

I'm a 1st year PhD scholar and I'm thinking of taking a job instead of pursuing PhD as I'm not able to understand how to navigate through PhD.. everything is just so confusing...

[@joelbackman4389]

Med school is a graduate program through. It’s a 5 or 6 year program in most countries, and you get a masters degree in medicine.

[@gassesv]

I'm happy with a masters making well into 6 figs, I'd only go back for a mba, but probably not

[@fisyr]

It's not like the industry can offer anything stable right now. Have you seen the layoffs that just keep happening and ai threatening job after job?

[@coagulatedsalts4711]

i want a pHD but now i’m scared 😅 i don’t mind doing industry research, but i’d like to have a structured period where i get to investigate a field of interest and become an expert before i get into the job market. 🙌

[@tanyastephens361]

You can become an industrial research scientist in industrial research institutes with better work life balance and financial stability. The title may be misleading into thinking that all scientist positions are problematic.

[@jacobharris3002]

These videos are informative but as a recent Physics/Astrophysics graduate thinking of applying to graduate schools, they are also unbelievably depressing and soul crushing. I feel so lost and don't know if I should even go for the P.h.D I've wanted for so long. At the same time industry sounds montonous and equally soul crushing but at least I don't have to work ridiculous hours for decades to maybe get a tenure track position. Being a scientist is my dream but I'm not willing to be exploited and hinge decades of my life on a maybe.

[@LCTesla]

if I spent 4 years of my life and all I got for it was that title it'd be worth it. It's so hard to go back after you've exited the academic world. I'm just an Msc now and still jealous of those 3 letters.

[@MrErick1160]

I'm an entrepreneur for 7 years and now wanting to go into a PhD in biostatistics/data science (it's about 3 years in France). But that's a strategic move because I want later to specialise applying statistical modelling to bio medical science.

[@debasishraychawdhuri]

Unless you just have to become a professor, get a job before you start your PhD. That way you will know what is outside.

[@henryzhao4622]

Is this primarily for science as opposed to other fields like international relations or English lit or architecture

[@jfrjunio]

I think frustation and lack of opportunities are possible for whatever path you choose. Academia is no different.

[@aeiou0123]

💯💯💯💯

[@martypoll]

I was an engineering manager at a US Department of Energy Laboratory. I used to feel sorry for the Biology post-docs. I had electronics technicians that made more money than them. Me? - I retired from the University of California at 55.

[@valeriapinatelliugarte3761]

What about if I know FOR SURE I want a job in the industry. Do I need a PhD?

[@perfectallycromulent]

I remember reading this article back in 1999 when I was getting my PhD. When my advisor said I should spend a fifth year in the PhD program and then do a post doc for a couple of years, I said, that's three years, and three years equals law school, so I'll do that instead.

[@ZackHobbs]

I have a just BSc and 13.5 years of microbiology/virology research experience, almost 10 years in the private sector and because of the current 2023-2024 economy so many private sector associate/junior scientist or senior research engineers are getting laid off and the few research jobs still hiring are in the public sector and academia and no one wants to hire someone too experienced.

[@SimicChameleon]

I know this is going be a personal question. How is the chemistry phd field and chemistry degree. I am taking chemistry and class is fun. It is nice to learn about you.

[@philmarsh7723]

Do the postdoc AFTER working a job in industry. After you've made your retirement and become financially independent.

[@Earthgazer]

Imagine pursuing something that takes 5 years of your life without investigating these basic insights first

[@lucabonaccio]

But how to avoid this since phd? How much competitive someone neefd to be to get a position? Is all about H index abd publications?

[@goodfortunetoyou]

Despair.

[@aloston]

One thing PhD stands for: "Please hire: Desperate" ;))

[@FoxMrD_1]

To your comment on 8:05, there is no way all the PhDs you ask would choose to do their PhDs again. Many days I wish I hadn't done mine. So there you go, it's not 100%.

[@user-pm6rx8uk2j]

When I did my PhD 1992 I used my postdoc to bridge an economic crisis and have some fun. It’s been the right perspective…

[@bengeurden1272]

I'd like to see some videos from Andy Stapleton about the positive aspects of PhDs and science. Some inspiring things instead of all this negativity all the time.

[@countrylivingwitht7306]

He does point out the positive aspects of Academia from time to time. Check his previous videos.