Clove is Dog****! Here's Why!

[@CreeperawmanYT]

Dont let this distract u the fact that TMV hadn't oiled up ever since GEN Won Masters Shanghai

[@qwex4244]

SMH dissapointed

[@mikeyfreeman5776]

I was wondering why we never received the promised oiled and slicked up strip stream 🤔

[@TMV_Oil_Up_As_You_Promised]

Thanks for doing my work the YT algorithem doesnt show mine no more

[@bishalshrestha-qm2ds]

which video does he say that

[@arsenalx7]

(real)

[@TVISE]

TMV got robbed in scotland, everything in the video is baseless slander

[@cognizant8512]

So that explains why TMV is such a fervent Tory

[@ShottFPS]

I don't get it. What's the Scotland reference?

[@P1yak]

@@ShottFPS Clove is Scottish

[@ShottFPS]

@@P1yak ohh now I get it thnx

[@Zod707]

@@cognizant8512i'm afraid to tell you he was overcome with joy when he found out the tories lost this last election 😔

[@BenedictPenguin]

another dilemma for riot, how can you balance an agent that has the most win rate on ranked but amongst the worst on pro play

[@ArkbladeIX]

I feel like the whole "quick and temporary" motif of the character just kinda makes it impossible

[@oatcake9996]

honestly dont think clove is that good in ranked, its just the reyna mains actually having an ability (the smokes). ranked suffers from the same issues that TMV said.

[@gg4life579]

@@oatcake9996 yeah the reason alot of people pick clove in ranked is because they are duelists who wanna seem like they are actually doing something and playing controller but really they are here for the ult i dont even see good value with meddle in my comp games, most times they arent even in a good spot to be able to smoke whilst dead

[@kilontong-uu4xs]

@@gg4life579 are you describing me

[@A6sol]

don't have to get a kill to use it but you lower the healing of when you use it after getting a kill (normal duration and you're able to see the corpse). but you can also use it whenever but it only heals a certain amount of hp. You could also make the overheal duration higher along with that but adjust the % of each adjustment so that its not completely busted. I'm not 100% sure that would work to make her more balanced in pro play, but with the right percentages, it could work. I'd also make her smokes maybe slightly bigger, like .5 or 1, or just make her smokes last 14 seconds.

[@kompetenzmitz2818]

I think the problem with the pick me up is that the heal is only overheal and it lasts for like idk not even 10 seconds and then its just gone. It would be much better if it atleast also heals you to 100 hp like the over heal abilities do

[@icecityx1221]

or similar to reynas old heal where it healed to 100, and you only lost the 50hp overheal when the buff expired.

[@BenedictPenguin]

so basically another reyna?

[@souljasleet]

That would step on sage shoes

[@gg4life579]

yk riot has been trying to tone down on the heals in this game since some agents just make your efforts in dealing atleast damage to make the enemy low worthless so making clove heal heal for even more is not that good. in the old patch note her heal lasted for 12 seconds which was crazy so they changed it to 8 seconds for a reason and not only it heals you but it also makes you move faster and reload faster aswell i think

[@kompetenzmitz2818]

@@BenedictPenguin no Reyna’s overheal basically lasts forever

[@funkycrawler619]

The one thing I've noticed with the Clove plays that baffles me, is why are people using them on maps that are huge like Lotus or Haven...like Clove's biggest strength is Smoke after Death and using them on maps of that size really undermines that (and the lack of Combo-ing with the Meddle is also wild). I do think they have value, especially on maps in which post-plant spam heavy (like Icebox or Sunset) but seeing them so far...some teams really don't seem to get how to use them properly.

[@anghuyphamnguyen3096]

But I think Clove themselves is an agent with little to offer. The ult and pick me up are bad as mentioned and the meddle is a worse fade seize. I think the meddle at the first place have so little to offer that they don't combo it, with such little range best it can do is clear some corners and why put the much efforts to clear 1 corner. I think the main problem comes with how easy it is to dodge the meddle, render it somewhat none usable to stop rush

[@funkycrawler619]

@@anghuyphamnguyen3096 I mean yes, I do think other agents probably bring more but Clove does have value (Mainly smokes after death) that I think teams that have experimented so far with Clove fail to really use. Yea the Meddle is arguably a worse Fade seize, but that being said, it is still an insane combo tool (ex: Combo-ing it with one Shock Dart is a Kill). Moreso the Ult is an insane stalling tool if done right (which is why I think Clove actually does bring value to Icebox/Sunset since those are two maps that are re-take heavy). Like objectively speaking, there will be stronger agents that are going to be more meta, but niche agents can bring value and throw off the enemy team if used right. I don't think the pros that are using Clove (except maybe DRX) are using them right (which is like when Gekko first came out) but I do think there will be some value to Clove if pros start to focus on the value they can bring and PLEASE just combo the Meddle with something like...

[@Xygard]

​@@anghuyphamnguyen3096the pick me up itself not that bad it just the player especially on the shown clip use it for disengaged, why use an engage tool for disengaged? It making the ability lose it value it's not a permanent heal, it's just temporary shield with stim why the value will be higher if they use their kit as aggressive push to help the duelist. Get this their ability design to make you not scare to do duel and assist the duelist because we know most of the time controller are the one that stay behind and waiting but with clove player can help entry site (not as main entry but like an assistant) so you can trade the duelist and also get taking more space because hey I'm on the verge of death why not taking more space with my aggressive ability that give me buff and shield because even if I'm dead I can still smoke something like that

[@drifter7773]

of course he waited for june to end to upload this

[@TheTruePotato123]

Yea why would he post it in June, those snowflakes get pissy at everything lol

[@ГүюгБатбаатар]

@@TheTruePotato123why are you so mad dawg😭

[@TheNegationist]

@@ГүюгБатбаатарwhy are you stirring the pot, they didn’t seem mad

[@untitledtitle503]

​@@TheTruePotato123touch grass

[@effluxi9587]

​@@TheNegationist"didn't seem mad" and he's calling an entire minority snowflakes, idk man, try again.

[@YungSover]

The real argument is just "why not pick omen?"

[@torchhead1643]

Because Women better xd. (jk)

[@deibu_1361]

They just play both but like just use Astra, her pull, stun, and wall are at least guaranteed to be useful and aren't conditional

[@OhPureLily]

Bc omen has no silly voice lines

[@torchhead1643]

@@deibu_1361 To me, Astra seems like the most useless agent in the game. just my opinion tho.

[@RiffRaffish]

@@OhPureLily This is the real answer

[@ghadimalakee1354]

I agree with everything said in this video but i would also argue that smoking after death is also an ability. TMV didnt mention how many times that got value.

[@effluxi9587]

Less than it should've because people kept forgetting to use it, even in pro matches 💀

[@Corroderptor]

In the same way a Breeze/Icebox map pool helped Viper get nerfed this current one with Abyss in it should highlight the Omen problem. Because if Clove presents no challenge and they’re scared to buff Astra then there is one dome smoker in the game.

[@funkycrawler619]

We are truly at a point where omen is becoming a problem and I hate to say it but he needs slight nerfs or else their going to murder him when he really doesn't need to be murdered (also please buff Astra the suck change no one asked for).

[@quickfingers7062]

@@funkycrawler619they aren’t going to nerf omen because he has the opposite problem with clove. Shit win rate in ranked but excellent win rate and pick rate in pro play.

[@Corroderptor]

@@quickfingers7062 in ranked when I hear an Omen teleport twice in a row I assume we’re cooked. Amazing that so much off angle potential, crosshair displacement and mobility could be under-utilized.

[@funkycrawler619]

@@quickfingers7062 Exactly what you said- he has a high win rate and pick rate in pro-play which they have made clear is the priority for Pro Play (and not shit win rate in ranked- idk what you're on but he has the second highest win rate for a controller in ranked). He will be touched at the rate the meta is going in no part because he is overpowered, but because they refuse to buff Astra/Harbor and I do think he can use a slight range nerf at least.

[@moober_]

the drx icebox comp with clove looked pretty good though

[@funkycrawler619]

It def is I think but that's how the map plays out though

[@xxTeamKillerxx]

Ye.. but doesn't fit the narrative of this video 😁

[@mreverything7056]

@@xxTeamKillerxxIn his defense, if your agent is only really good on one map, that makes them niche and less powerful. I know brimstone and bind exist, but then again, no ones out here saying Brimstone is a “good” agent, ya know?

[@isaacantonius9308]

​@@mreverything7056 Brim is also meta in Fracture, it's just unfortunate it's out of rotation

[@xxTeamKillerxx]

@@mreverything7056 true.. and Reyna probably only works well on icebox as well.. and deadlock on lotus I think? but Clove is the last agent we've had if I'm not mistaken and dropped mid season.. Teams haven't really tried using clove as much.. Deadlock being out longer and seeing so little gameplay should probably be the front runner for "worst Pro play agent" Maybe clove ends up being horrible next year as well and this will age like milk.. but for now I think it's too soon to say that and also back your claim by skipping the games it had impact

[@prakharchaurasiya8107]

It was the same with Gekko at first, players were not using the util properly but now that's mostly fixed. A few small buffs to meddle and pick me up would be good though.

[@nacun4740]

maybe giving her 2 meddles while nerfing the decay sounds good

[@aizuni]

That’s what I’m saying. I remember TMV talking about how bad Gekko was in pro play when he came out, now he’s in S tier and he’s used a lot both in pro and ranked. Though he was a new type of agent, I doubt Clove will become very useful even a year from now, but we never know.

[@gamist8166]

We sure do love the good ranked agents that suck in pro play. Those are super good for the game! I just love how much I can do together with my Reyna teammates.

[@whereami.]

funnily enough, i distinctly remember a round where the heal got value: PRX vs. RRQ, map 2 Ascent with jinggg on Clove, round 14. it's in their latest voice comms video. RRQ tried to exec onto A site after winning pistol round; PRX stacked 3 pistols + Cypher trips on site; jinggg got a damage assist, used the heal, then used the 150 hp to win a duel against xffero, surviving with 20 hp... then immediately got traded. PRX then lost that round.

[@whereami.]

although i do remember a round where jinggg just solo defended A main because he had Clove ult to allow aggression (which theoretically threatens the possibility of doing it again the next round if you don't use it), so i suppose that's an ult that finds value even without using it. though it seemingly does require PRX jinggg levels of aggressive W key-ing.

[@AroyalMcWiener]

I agree, but i think the clove ult in the fpx comp where life went aggro because he had the ult is also value

[@ContentOf_OfflineTVAndFriends]

Can you read brother?

[@AroyalMcWiener]

@@ContentOf_OfflineTVAndFriends No

[@_blank_5017]

I spent the majority of the video looking at the mirror behind TMV as he shook his hands around

[@sambarnett2410]

I feel like the ult is better than he made it out to be, it can make the enemy team run away, get your team a trade, or just give you a free extra kill. I think with a little buff to the dismiss it would be a lot better as the main reason it’s bad is because you just die right away after the dismiss

[@marimcarden413]

I think the problem with Clove's abilities in general boils down to an issue of how situational they are. Their decay is "only" good when you're in a range/when you know there are people there. Otherwise you're just chucking it with a bit of a pray hoping that you got someone. I think their ulti is situational since you don't want to ult too close to where they'll chase you down and kill you, but you also don't want to ulti too far and they'll run away from you. It's very situational and kinda feels like there's a lot of limiters compared to other agents where they can do more "standard execs" :/

[@SageAttic]

I mean its the same as a molly or a raze nade

[@shulleon582]

@@SageAttic lmao mollies and nades actually move people away

[@kokyixuan]

it’s like a viper/deadlock molly

[@marimcarden413]

@@kokyixuan but it's not like it does any damage tho like a viper molly. And like someone said up higher- these are mollies that force people to move if they don't want to take a lot of damage. Here, someone just waits for the stun (or isn't stunned at all) and then just gets close range multi kills

[@John-lv4sp]

Yeah they just made another ranked agent (like reyna) and its just gonna be a nightmare to balance. Dont know how riot didnt learn there lesson from Reyna

[@Rumhammmm]

You mentioned yourself that smoking after death is one of cloves upsides so why not also include that in the analysis? How many of those rounds had an impactful smoke thrown by a dead clove?

[@dsand2084]

the valorant devs suck rn. they've basically made a bunch of OP reyna clones which will never be used in pro play, so they won't be getting nerfed.

[@JetFoam]

Using pick me up 18/100 rounds is crazy

[@dean988]

it would be cool if pick me up had the butterflies scan a small circle for enemies around the body it’s using to activate the ability, but that would kinda make clove a controller/duelist/and initiator hybrid which might be a bit much

[@TAKOHUMU]

Given riots record with controllers they’ll definitely get a nerf again, obviously too strong in pro play

[@carlsong6438]

Ult rework: Buffs: - initial animation shorter - faster movement speed while in dismiss - dismiss lasts a whole second longer - you can stay alive for 50% longer without getting a kill or damaging assist Nerfs: - costs one more ult orb - cant use in 1v1 whether or not the spike is down Edit: 1vX, not 1v1

[@lilyng1097]

PMU rework to boot: Buffs: - 100 healing every time - Faster shooting while using Or - increase active time by 50% Balance Nerf: - speed boost decreased by 50% Goal: give people more tools and reason to take aggressive fights while decreasing their ability to run away

[@QuitterKiller]

I think teams are playing clove wrong. She needs to be sent in first where her pick me up is useful and be in a tradable position for her revive. She can’t be last alive like Victor. Her whole gimmick is smoking from death and teams need to capitalize off that.

[@shulleon582]

What if we kill clove, back off and wait for them to push their own smoke or run out of time and play retake? You basically told the other team were gonna take this site/limit all our smokes here and hope we win.

[@TraGiiXzaze]

@@shulleon582 What if you over commit, and they've already left, and you're getting duped by fake smokes?

[@JustMatchmaking]

​@@TraGiiXzazeCoordinated teams will have util and players left on the rest of the map still, and the smokes still only last 12 seconds.

[@Hello-wo4sx]

I think you underrate the speed boost of pick me up. the heal isn’t very useful (especially in pro play) but the speed boost for peeking is quite impactful in my opinion. it’s still not particularly good but it’s not just a heal ability.

[@jpm5999]

Primmie on Clove gonna make him re think.

[@antoinebonzon6151]

Which channel do you watch these non-championship matches on? With english commentary. thanks for the video, it was great that you quantified a lot of your claims. What I would have loved to see is what you think regarding how Riot could modify Clove to make the agent good in pro plays but not too good in ranked.

[@captainadi7375]

Oiling man's valorant

[@imaraluwuzervodsclipshighl6122]

Problem with Pick Me Up and Meddle is the same problem as light shields in my opinion: when the expected kill is one shot to the head, then 150 HP is effectively 1HP. It becomes even more prevalent in pro games. Do kills happen from body shots? Of course, but who's practicing to kill with 4 to the body compared to 1 to the head? Honestly, Clove could probably find more value in a match buying Light Shield + Smoke and her gun and then buy for her team with the 1k she saves every round.

[@jordanalmady2145]

They should definitely make it like Reyna’s heal. Make the speed buff on a timer, but the heal lasts the rest of the round. But maybe not as much healing

[@equalturtle]

Gotta love the analysis with actual data to back it up. Great content. Was wondering if there is any content like that on other agents, just to put it into perspective? These numbers look low, but tbf I don't know what they should look like for a decent agent.

[@connormignault4748]

No data for this but look at Omen for example - just from watching a normal round you see the TPs and paranoia get value almost every time

[@paulhorbenko9560]

Agree, you can see ypur own ability usage after game, I had 1.2 per round dizzy, 0.8 wingman and 0.1 on mosh for Gekko

[@nova_shaco]

tbh there's one line of text they could add to meddle to make clove viable in pro play. either make meddle suppress or nearsight people it hits. boom, theyre actually pretty good and have a balanced kit. (also probably make meddle do a bit less damage maybe but overall just making them have more of a teamplay ability would be amazing)

[@wahabadi5262]

Tbh when i play clove i always forget about meddles ability because it's just didn't do anything

[@hiimdarius]

its simple, the smoke is just too quick to decimate

[@mhmdd]

Riot needs to take a deep breath, stop releasing agents and balance the ones they have.

[@torchhead1643]

I main Clove and while yes, Meddle is completely useless, I see a lot of utility in the rest of her kit. Pretty sure they made her 'Pick Me Up' as a 'Push kills, cause u got hit' type of thing, or in case of an emergency. I always try getting the most out of it, getting into the front lines trying to shoot someone, because if I die, it doesn't matter much, I can still smoke.

[@eyalav6293]

The main issue with clove is that riot wanted a controller that could be agrressive They succeeded with that by letting clove smoke after death than proceeded to make her into a worse version of reyna

[@ahmadfahmii]

imo, what clove really need is: - 2 meddle or - when you use pick me up it also heal your teammate in a certain radius like skye but with different percentage of heal from clove

[@Character_Name75312]

Or pick me up just lasts longer/forever and heals normal hp like Reyna’s heal does

[@Venomx-nb1jr]

They have to look back at clove after the Reyna adjustments. There’s just no way Reyna exists in her current state and clove got nerfed

[@Natseldu]

So you're telling me the abilities didn't even find value in pistol rounds?

[@jonLK47]

I think clove win rate in ranked was high cus of 2 reason. 1. People who want to pick reyna and shoot got an agent that can use smoke. (So the heavy fragging players picked clove alot) 2. Having a heal and ghost in pistol rounds led to pistol round wins which gave that team more chances to win. I don't think the nerd was fair at all

[@f4zbear_vlr]

I think that these changes should be applied to clove: - Meddle: revealing enemy, and not exploding in the air - Pick me up: actually heal clove to 100 hp and make her move faster - Not dead yet: remove the resurrect animation and instantly dismiss + 15 sec to kill instead of 12 sec + shoots and reload faster like reyna ult

[@paulhorbenko9560]

Revealing enemies is an initiator thing though, I would suggest much longer travel time, longer decay time and maybe faster use time (so she can throw it super fast). I'd like fast use on C too. And perhaps current Reyna speed when in dismiss mode sith Clove?

[@OstrichBeak]

Wouldn’t the movement boost of Cloves C ability disrupt the opponents aim meaning the “useful” part is hard to measure?

[@itsFisch]

Yeah, it is a little strange that he only looked at "direct" value. I wonder how many Omen/Skye flashes, Fade prowlers or Viper mollys were thrown into corners to gather info and clear positions. Same could be said for pros popping Jett dash as a preemptive mobility tool only for it to expire shortly after. Not saying that Clove is a good agent in pro play, but the video shows a lot of preconceived bias.

[@TraGiiXzaze]

100% The heal is ancillary when you're wide peeking like you've got heeleys on in the gym. The speed is way harder to deal with than just having max hp. He essentially just doesn't mention the speed buff, or the fact that you can use smokes when you're dead lol. But hey, the guy needs to make some money today so here's a video he thought about for an hour.

[@beska4943]

@@TraGiiXzaze copium copium copium clove is ass

[@lilyng1097]

Yes, but it would depend on how it’s used, for example in Flashbacks clip. He used it to break Foxy9s crosshair and actually win the 1v1. Meaning that it was a good usage of PMU

[@Sca1edAnd]

Could you do the ability analysis for all the agents? I’d be interested to see if there are any surprises

[@Chmmr]

clove is so much fun but even in ranked ive been feeling like theyre kinda weak for similar reasons as stated here - meddle kinda suffers from the same problems as iso undercut where it's hard to capitalize on and doesnt pose any threat on its own so value is really hard to get out of it - pick me up timer is SO low that unless you have W glued down youre probably not gonna find another engagement within the timespan (not to mention unlike a reyna overheal or an iso kill-shield, the heal does nothing against a headshot) - the ult has a ton of potential but is also REALLY easy to backfire, using it in any situation that isnt a long-ranged fight with cover close by usually means youll get chased down and refragged (and unlike a pheonix ult, the enemy gets TWO ult points for this), but then even if you do live, the timer is SO short that youre forced to glue down your W key and look for enemies bc usually they just wont re-peek you and you just die anyway - smokes are great tho, and the ult + postmortem smokes make me more comfortable to hold aggressive angles!

[@belair5009]

Yeah her Pick Me Up ability isn’t that good tbh.

[@matt_tumminia]

Biggest thing imo is that she is power crept by every other agent. If you want 2 smokes, pick any other controller. Or play 2 of any other role. There is always a better option.

[@jefflum4040]

I can’t see how, with cloves current abilities riot could make them viable in competitive play and not completely busted in ranked. Riot doesn’t like do real reworks of characters and honestly its one of the reasons why we have so many characters who are horrible in ranked but great in competitive or the other way around

[@dasgrischa]

"Clove is Dogshit" > Me an intellectual: "Always has been"

[@funkmonk3021]

i know this wont be an argument for this particular video but if you want to use numbers to reinforce your opinions, you need to put up numbers that could counter that argument too. In this case, by not showing any numbers of value or utility usages of other agents like harbour or omen or even iso, reyna, we cant actually see the difference of not having a specific agent to having a specific agent. I agree clove is not that good in pro play, but when you look at lets say ultimates of certain agents, I personally dont think there is a difference between having an omen ult to having a clove ult. I rarely see omen ults get value in your stand point within the same rounds played. Of course the frequency of having an omen ult to clove ult is different so the amount of good omen ult plays can be higher but if you look at the percentage of it, i feel like its likely the same. Yeah other abilities are trash too but that can also be said to other agents abilities too. I want to see more numbers if you are trying to use them as an argument

[@Mandydeth]

I feel like the big context this video is missing is similar stats for other agents. If you told me KAY-O Knives are 98/100 or something similar, I would at least have a basis of comparison. At least give me some apples-to-apples comparisons for both of Omen's abilities. How often do we see blinds missed or teleports right in front of someone?

[@prajwalkrishnabhat5539]

Look, i get that the devs probably made with the idea of making a reyna that can smoke but like, its not that good of an idea. Id rather it be that pick me up can be whenever you are damaged and get a burst of health for 10 seconds.

[@vanshrajani9660]

i am starting to think that the easiest way to fix pick me up is to let the stim be on a timer but the heal be permanent

[@ChriSaito]

Interesting video! I'd love to see a video in this style for another agent to see how frequently their abilities are used in comparison to Clove. I also wonder how Clove would compare to other agents who are considered bad in pro play. Is Clove by far the worst or are agents who are also considered bad in pro play bad for the similar reason that their abilities get little value?

[@scout9976]

I just think the ult should get a longer/faster dismiss and a stim after to hunt down enemies and rez (or just increase duration so you have more time to make impact) the smokes should have a much larger range (swap her range with omens and solve 2 "issues" at once; omen is a little too strong having global presence akin to astra [along with his other strong abilities {not ult its lowkey trash}]. clove would benefit so much from having a large range without being broken; she cant move when she dies and her smokes are short anyways.) the pick me up should still have a short stim and overheal, but should fill cloves regular hp like old reyna to make it a little more useful the decay should only pop after hitting a wall or floor; its range is so short that youre better off just shooting the enemy, and itd be cool to also have the case of having decay lineups and util combos, along with it actually being able to reach the enemy in general for an immortal agent, her stuff falls pretty short, and i dont think these changes would really affect her in ranked where 5man rush A is the only strategy. Shes already good at going fast, but for pro itd be nice if she could be useful when slowing down is necessary

[@vilgotlindmoller4668]

Is the util underused because it’s bad or because the people playing Clove play the chatacter/use the util wrong?

[@guyfawkes0511]

Both

[@dean988]

people definitely dont know how to use her util but the util also isn’t that good. even when people eventually learn how to play clove correctly, she is just a weaker reyna with a weaker phoenix ult and smokes. her util doesn’t have much potential because of how to the point it is deadlock is an agent people thought was weak but her util was just being used wrong because she has surprisingly complex/unique util that can be used differently, but cloves util all has one specific use, so people either play her like reyna or like brimstone when she needs to be played like both

[@ironicpants2651]

I think that the clove winrate is inflated because of all the non util aim freaks using her while being generally more useful because of having smokes.

[@carlsong6438]

They NEED to make meddle lineups viable

[@jdw7372]

Idk, I really feel like TMV is undervaluing or purposefully skimming over the smokes after death, they are saving rounds consistently. It's probably the single most useful ability in the game

[@ingodube4519]

I like Clove in ranked because a couple of main Reyna have been choosing Clove, hence, fullfilling the controller spot. But I have to admit that her abilities are pretty much lacking. Her "cure" is only useful when she is dealing with multiple fights at once, and usually, people are going to die in this situation anyway, because they are being traded. So yes, she is worse than Reyna in pro play.

[@ryanthegoose9456]

TMV should do the thug shake

[@saibotshawdow5090]

I feel like I agree but also that pro teams don’t know how to play around a clove

[@patrickwumbo8271]

Flashback used the pick me up on full HP in the "good" clip

[@lilyng1097]

Which gave him the speed to break Foxy9s crosshair granting him an extra kill It’s not just an overheal it’s also a speed boost

[@tz6229]

Thinking man’s valorant when Doing Women’s CSGO walks in

[@bernardhaswany4308]

I remember there was a time when people thought Viper was trash. But now Viper is considered a very strong agent. Pro teams don't play clove well (not that I do play her better) but it can be a pretty similar case to Gekko where pro players were trash with him, one buff, became a pretty solid agent. Hope she gets that buff/rework sure, but not dogshit for sure

[@noahallen5046]

Because she /was/ trash. And then she was broken overpowered. 😂

[@J0514H_K]

I thought I was going to hate thsi video but he did make valid points

[@wasifsharon]

I only have problem with tmv's take on clove's ult. A trade with the ult where clove gets shot and a teammate gets the kill back, its genuinely impactful because clove loses the ult if they don't get a kill or damage over 49 thus dying again. its a good thing to be a target for a trade.YES! other controller's have round winning ults, but its a rare occasion that a omen or harbor or even brim ult gets a significant value. i think clove is played poorly by the pros, maybe they will become more efficient with the agent. they are the worst agent in the pro scene, no doubt.

[@anghuyphamnguyen3096]

Harbor's ult got a big impact on attack ngl, I think harbor is the strongest controller for attacking

[@shulleon582]

But do you win a round? Maybe if the other team is bad. Look at other ults from controllers. They genuinely control the pace of a game.

[@Hopeless_21]

He is in the subset of controller initiator like u can use his dome for cover planting and ult for info . I don't know why people don't use it on maps with viper often​@@anghuyphamnguyen3096

[@anghuyphamnguyen3096]

@@shulleon582 I would argue that omen ult is mid most of the time. But harbor and brim do control the pace of the round

[@papajudgeplays]

Bro will not leave Clove alone

[@ArchDude17]

As a controller player I want to like Clove but the pick me up is useless. I think they should rework it so that if you hit it with no kill it gives the speed increase but if you activate with a recent kill then you get the heal plus speed but the heal should actually permanently heal health (not shield) i also personally think both effects should transfer to teammates in a radius of clove on activation, so speed boost and heal if applicable. Adds team utility which a controller is know for. Meddle can be useful but I almost wish there was a 2nd one (tho I can see that being OP in ranked but still). Clove needs some changes but with her and Iso, I am starting to worry about Riot's balancing choices.

[@SimplySevv]

sooo do you think it’s possible that pros haven’t reached the point where they understand / have the experience on clove yet? Kinda like when pros tried using pre buff Gekko and didn’t play him correctly?

[@clementxanero8078]

Bro the numbers are so perfect, first their are 100 rounds in total, the pick me up and ult got value only in one round and the pick me up + meddle were used in 49 rounds so he can say they were not used in most rounds😂

[@jinxed231]

honestly, i’ve stopped hearing out your takes after you said the same about deadlock, and then pro teams figured out some clever ways to make her work

[@Theo-bb6pn]

The pro win rate for deadlock is pretty low, so idk what u mean, it creates flaws in comps as has always been said - he even repeats this numerous times in his most recent deadlock video and shows how it creates those holes

[@anghuyphamnguyen3096]

Idk why they decided to put a costco Fade seize as an ultility for clove ngl, meddle needs a rework

[@Venomx-nb1jr]

Uhm because take two seconds to picture Reyna with fade seize and you’ll quickly realize it wouldn’t be healthy for the game

[@anghuyphamnguyen3096]

@@Venomx-nb1jr How are you comparing Clove to reyna tho, reyna have an exit while clove doesn't case close, reyna's heal is also miles more reliable

[@Hoserzzz]

Pick me up needs a serious buff. The amount of time it lasts is an actual joke. I'm fine with the ult nerf they did to clove, even nerf the smoke radius after death a bit but the pick me up is a ridiculous ability now.

[@TraGiiXzaze]

It's really because they shipped it with the speed buff. They're trying to figure out if speed buff + straight healing to 150 are too strong. Idk if the healing should be permanent, but I think the timer on the speed buff is in the right place. It's pretty strong when an aimer is on clove, and they moonwalk your shit

[@thannguyenthanhdong1315]

Tbf i think most pros are playing it wrong. She’s still a relatively new agent in terms of play rate, so most haven’t figured it out. I think Flashback was the best at it. I think the main reason is because her subtype is duelist, and all other controllers do not have that controller-duelist type combinaison All her abilities supplement that. The argument of “ults should have big value” is invalid. There’s been so many bad or “eh” ults in the past; it doesn’t make it bad by itself, it’s the misuse of it. Think of Sova ults hitting no one, a phoenix ult dying right away, a brim ult only “displacing” etc. Since has been in the game since the beginning, people have obviously optimized the way to play him in pro, but not Clove. I appreciate the use of data and the analysis of each round, but correlation =/= causation. And I’d say the main factor is most teams haven’t used her properly.

[@TraGiiXzaze]

I think you could sum up the entire video by saying TMV thinks an omen flash is more valuable than any other smokers utility. That's the whole argument lol. Clove plus a raze should be able to clear most sites with just the vulnerable and nade.

[@Zero-pz6fm]

As a clove main I’m trying real hard to not be offended bc ur right clove sucks… in pro play. In my silver lobbies tho the pick me up is getting used every round and it’s getting me lots of value bc silvers can’t aim to save their lives and I’m practically back to full health and rushing when they don’t expect it and I’m almost always getting kills right after the ultimate bc silvers don’t understand that you can just run away and wait it out, now the meddle I just throw it where the enemy is and it at least stops them from pushing in and stalls. And the fact that when I die the party still has smokes is literally AMAZING (not to speak highly of myself but I’m literally the only silver that CAN smoke, I can never trust another person to smoke) also I will admit they’re really easy to play and that’s one of the reasons I play them also clove let’s me play a bit more aggressive and dare I say like a dualist and still play smokes since no one else wants to play controller over all for us regular folk cloves a great pick but maybe I’ll have to eventually learn another agent when I reach higher ranks

[@acidicspecter]

Hello mr. TMV I am just letting you know that the water part of dogwater is actually 5 letters long bu tyou only put 4 asterisks okay thanks

[@JoogleMagic]

Thoughts on possible changes that could improve clove?

[@allisongonzalez9196]

I'm going to sound absolutely insane, but these people just don't seem to know how to use Clove's abilities right. You don't use your pick me up if you don't intend to IMMEDIATELY take another fight, it does last too little but within that small window you will only find value IF you actively seek a fight. If the situation doesn't lend itself to doing that (e.g. you are about to rotate to the other site) you just don't use it, takes a while to suppress the instinct of using pick me up immediately upon killing someone. And same thing with the ult, you should only use it when you have a direct path to dismiss to a safe position, or have a teammate flash for you into the enemy territory, reviving in the middle of Ascent's mid when you don't control market or tree or you can't make it into tiles is just suicide

[@ejfiewfeuihefwiuwe]

I see her pick me up being used in 2 ways: 1: as a way to engage a fight in which there is a high likelihood that you encounter many enemies IE pushing onto site the extra speed bonus helps as well because it makes you harder to hit 2: speaking of extra speed I also see it as a retreat option if you believe there would be many enemies such as you get a pick and use the speed of pick me up to retreat and take a new position

[@drakekumlin2359]

Not that I’m a pro but I’m an immortal clove one trick and I just feel like these pros don’t know how to play her well enough. They play all the meta agents and have barely touched clove

[@DallynandParand]

Not that it evens anything out, but how many smokes were used on average each round? Clove should have the potential to smoke the most of any agent because of their post-death rechargeable smokes

[@jacobbrady173]

My biggest issue is how dogshit cloves ult is. If you pop it when no is close enough to immediately kill you most of the time they can just kite you and you die. Or they are close enough to kill you after the animation ends.

[@Marked-uh9wp]

You can say the same with Phoenix ult

[@crispodispo]

​​@@Marked-uh9wpAt least Phoenix ult basically grants a free entry on site, worst case scenario they kill the ult and get traded (talking about pro play ofc, ranked is still ranked lol). It's also a lot cheaper than Clove ult and is a GUARANTEED extra life

[@Marked-uh9wp]

@@crispodispo Think about it this way. Phoenix ult has a set duration of use. Meang to say, it only lasts that exact round that you used it. What if you entry on an empty site? Ult wasted. Meanwhile, Clove's ult is a Phoenix ult but active for many rounds. Case 1: If Clove dies, she can respawn. Case 2: If Clove doesn't die, she saves it for next round. Case 3: If she dies but it isn't worth it, she can save it for a better round. Clove's ult is literally Phoenix ult but active the entire round and the next rounds until it was used.

[@crispodispo]

@@Marked-uh9wp you are forgetting the long ass animation of the clove ult before they can even reposition, and also not being a guaranteed extra life. Even if you Phoenix ult and empty site, isn't the information that the site is empty also extremely valuable? Like without the ult you need to use util to clear out site even if no one is there, but if you Phoenix ult, the team can save the util for post plant which is a massive advantage

[@Marked-uh9wp]

@@crispodispo Same with Phx tbh. That's why someone has to guard the body. If you are in an unfavorable spot to use your ult, you have the OPTION to not revive and save for a favorable one. Whereas with Phx, you have to commit and you might not even die while on it.

[@yutanox2798]

You know it's bad when TMV tells you to pick Reyna

[@uhhhhhh.___.01]

Bro hasnt seen primmie on clove

[@logankaplan8188]

While I agree with the premise of Clove being terrible in pro play, I would also like to see a comparison to the value/usage of other controllers' abilities. How often does omen tp or brim stim get value?

[@arpitsingh6375]

If pick me up can be buffed to use before getting a kill then clove can become better in competitive...

[@sweater_ow]

i’ve seen people saying that they’re the best in the game and the worst in the game

[@Xygard]

The problem with pick me up not on the ability itself but the player, many of them just use it as disengaged tool while the design as engaging tool like the victor clip why he use it anyway when he clearly want to retreat and plant the bomb? The ability still can be use for what idk 10 or 8 seconds after the kill before it disappear? And the meddle yes obviously is hard to find value on it but it can be use to clear corner and make sure you had advantage when you clear it because well if someone there obviously they had lower health than you, and on defense you can stall pretty much on choke point by combine it with damage ability. Also people playing it as a reyna doesn't help it at all might use reyna than clove if thats the case

[@rgjogos2645]

she's also the worst agent in ranked. I have no idea why people pick her, they don't even know how to use her ult btw, they respawn on enemy's face giving them a free ult orb and money

[@p1xke729]

didnt include supamen bc hes the greatest smokes player OTA

[@Ieno]

Make the Pick Me Up heal permanent but nerf the healing amount. Clove is not a duelist and shouldnt have to swing for a second kill 🙅‍♂️

[@TheHelderVinicius]

Your argument TMV is actually that pro players that haven't mastered Clove don't use their abilities well except the smokes , there is no way Clove is worse than Phoenix in pro play if they are playing together for example using medlle and raze nade combos

[@leoblue2002]

they were too scared of medal being a viable ability so they gave it the worst projectile in the game. they should replace its projectile mechanics with something slightly less shit, like phoenix molly for example, still bad but less shit.

[@Deifiable]

This could be a very good argument that clove is a bad agent. However, it also seems at least partially an argument that clove is still too new for people, even pros, to be good at using her yet. I mean, come on, only using meddle 30% of the time? That’s not a knock on meddle. That has to be players who just aren’t used to having and knowing when and how to use that piece of utility.

[@prakharchaurasiya8107]

I would have like to see what Omen or Viper's numbers are for util usage that got value, just to see how much behind Clove is.

[@JeffDays]

I'm glad that someone else is as big of a Clove hater as I am

[@kanival42]

I’ve said it from the start that clove is the worst controller in the game. Sure smoke after death is great, but if she dies on the other side of the map it’s useless. Plus the smoke only lasts 12 seconds. Her kit is so selfish compared to Omen, brim and even astra who have more valuable abilities for your team.

[@brandonkim2483]

did the smokes after death ever get used? just curious

[@AD_RC]

"first of all this they/them business is bullshit" we see thru you

[@K13N]

Riot never wanted her to be an agent for pro play.Her sole purpose is to fill a niche in the gap for the community.Thats it shes useless beyond that