We Have to Talk About The NONSENSICAL Pricing of Audio Gear ...

[@PaulThird]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mKHXZ5atjquXrtUsi=UKDPqL4WLi_oTjEP This is the video that influenced this video. It's a brilliant video by Amir that discusses his AES approved paper on DAC's and how price really doesn't correspond to performance. Breaks everything down in a very understandable way. A must watch 🤓

[@qtrax100]

Sometimes being poor as its advantages. No wasting money on gash gear.

[@arnusion]

It's called capitalism. The minute you run a system where the price of something is determined by what someone will pay for it, not what it cost to make, you end up where we are.

[@zacalakemusic]

Another wonderful episode with amazing information. Love the super subtle holiday vibe. :-) Mr. Third, I love what you do and this one is particularly important. Great work. Merry Christmas from Massachusetts.

[@PaulThird]

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[@stillpist]

SOS has done some interesting blind shootouts. For example the Art pro mpa 2 won or was preferred against a Neve and other expensive preamps in one of them.

[@PaulThird]

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[@chinmeysway]

what shootout exactly? 2012 there was one but they never had results; claimed it was not a shootout. maybe you’re referring to something else?

[@stillpist]

Yeah the one from 2012. Looking back it wasn't a shootout per se, but the art unit was preferred over a modern neve and so on and so on.

[@xadovitch6630]

If I remember well the art pro mpa won the shootout on piano. There was also à shootout on gearslutz where the old behringer adda was not worst than a very very expensive converter

[@kelvynification]

I just had a situation with my RME UFX for the first time in 10 years since I purchased. The service was incredible and the repair was done extremely fast and considering the hardware that needed to be swopped out very very reasonably priced - in fact really cheap considering - the unit sounds better than ever. I am so happy that I went with RME and considering their after sales service and commitment to their users regarding drivers for legacy products well worth the price. So yes! Mr Third makes a valid point. Great video:)

[@PaulThird]

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[@SonnyGreenwichJr]

Happy Christmas to you & yours, Master Paul! From chilly & festive Ireland! ☘💪🏽👀👍🏽☘

[@PaulThird]

🥃🥃🥃🥃🥃

[@bartldrum]

Great video Paul, thanks so much for your content buddy. Merry Christmas and Happy NY to you and the family!

[@PaulThird]

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[@joechapman8208]

I have that Topping L30 II. Excellent thing. When comparing headphone amps, I quickly realised the market is serving very different needs. There's us, the producers who crave signal cleanliness, but then there's the audiophile consumer who wants an amp in order to hear some new magic in "Aja". The audiophile consumer wouldn't be necessarily be impressed by Topping; in order to choose an amp, they demand to hear a difference, not the same thing as pure as possible. So they may well love that Neve box, and Neve will insist on selling it at 499 because if they sold it at 100 to undercut the Topping on account of being less good, those customers would think Neve was circling the drain. For those audiophiles, paying an eye-watering price might actually add to how much they love it everytime they plug in, such is the perverse power of consumer economics. But if Neve and the audiophiles are both happy about it, then there's no reason for me to judge these sickos

[@PaulThird]

Yeah many Audiophiles don't like near pure linear performance. I've got a tube mode and another mode on my dx7 pro+ but I never use it

[@jacobsmith1877]

There will always be fools happy to be parted from their money. I get enjoyment out of not spending much money and still getting the job done. I bought a factory refurbished Antelope Zen Studio Plus at nearly 75% off the retail price. It blows my mind how good it sounds and I am happiest that I didn't have to spend $2800 to get that kind of quality.

[@johnbach2380]

Don't those types of Audiophiles spend way more on their headphone amps than 500?

[@PaulThird]

Some do.

[@stefaansorensen7175]

The audiophile community is a mixed bag, one side that prefers more character to their sound go for tube driven hardware, the other camp prefers precision and transparency - which happens to be the same goal as 'pro' gear. A lot of the 'pro' gear companies also have a hifi division (Focal, Dynaudio, ATC, Bryston etc...). Topping, for example, is a hifi/audiophile marketed brand.

[@bigstewdio]

Finally got round to watching this and very pleased I did. A really excellent, balanced, well researched and thought provoking video. Very good.

[@PaulThird]

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[@renudae]

Excellent Paul! Thank you! (and a happy holiday season to you and yours) ~~~~ !!!

[@PaulThird]

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[@jackveranda]

😂 Paul I love ye mate.. you the funniest audio dude on the tube. I couldn't say that distortion in triplet. I've just have up I think? I just make my mad music and remember how hard it was in the 90s to get into a studio that I had no way to touch the buttons (luckily my mate had a wee studio using a Roland 880X digital console) so it was good in the way that you had to make sure your vocal or guitar track was first class so the engineer didn't start throwing his hands in the air. My point 'I'm just glad I can do it in my room'.. keep crushing mate. Jack.

[@PaulThird]

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[@Weechoo]

The headphone output on my Focusrite ISA One preamp is better than any interface I've tried, or even better than on my NAD speaker amplifier. Cleaner, more dynamics, no distortion, more pleasant to listen to overall. Or at least to my ears. And it has a lot of power.

[@antoinebecks9995]

Thanks for the info! Other examples of gear with a wide variety of price options are monitor controllers. What monitor controller do you recommend? (for example, the Dangerous Monitor ST is 2500$ / Crane Song Avocet is 3600 / the Drawmer CMC3 is only 700$)

[@PaulThird]

None. I would just stick to my dx7 pro+ as its got multiple outputs and I can ensure the highest level of conversion. Its got optical, XLR, spdif, coax, AES, insane Bluetooth quality which can all be switched between via the remote. Depends on what kind of monitoring you need. In my control room Ive got kali IN-UNF connected to topping via optical, I'll have the presonus eris studio 8 connected via XLR, Ive got NDM PR1 over Bluetooth just outside the control room, hifiman He1000se & ananda nano headphones connected and Ive still got the RCA to connect another set of monitors if I choosed. So in my setup I just use the remote and switch to what I want to listen to. If I was to buy a monitor controller I'd buy audient Nero but I'll never need one

[@db4ks]

Put the Neve branding on a golf club increase the price by $500

[@mytt88]

But my neve's are the best sounding golf clubs I've ever heard

[@PaulThird]

Can definitely hit at least 0.0002% further

[@Wizardofvoz2]

Paul; post more. I look every day for a new “Hollooooooo!” We all need more Paul Third stuff. JS.

[@PaulThird]

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[@morizanova]

Thanks for Video . Yeah those item`s prices seem move in "out of reach" direction for hobbyist and importantly for people who lived outside US and EU . So for us the options would be stacking more plugins and hope the best LOL . Another approach will be DIY build routes

[@anthonyrock5039]

Fully happy with my Lynx Aurora (n) it was that or the RMI AD series. I chose the Lynx for its modularity for expansion and open interface options. What annoyed me about interfaces was that most other options out there were pushing what they called either thicker warmer or heavier crisper feel?!?! I wanted as clean and as much of our amplification of my incoming hardware with customer support and flexibility.

[@PaulThird]

Tbh I've got apollo x6 & sp8 for analog AD and the conversion difference is so low that even just the pass through of the analog masks the sound of the conversion. Conversion especially in the modern day shouldn't really have any real audible impact when it comes to DA going to AD However DAC going to speakers is a different kettle of fish as there are a lot of variables at play. The problem is with analog conversion is that mostly everybody uses the DA of the interface for the speakers which give the impression that the DA to AD is more impressive than it actually is. That's why many state the DA to AD of the x6 to be class leading but at the same time will slate the sound of the DA to speakers cause it sounds horrible and muddy. The DA to AD is super linear. Ruler flat, super low THD but the DA to speakers is pretty useless

[@thapixelduveet1860]

I have the rnhp amp and im loving the smooth sound from it. Im noticing the low noise but for me its worth it. I also have a audient interface but to me the neve sounds better. Changed to a 120ohm headphone later and the noise from the neve disappeared.

[@echothenatives]

Wow @PaulThird you have impeccable timing, I was running into needing a HP amp today, and started to research when I saw this! I have the same Audient so I'll take your suggestion. Thank you for this, that's a creepy level of ESP to know what I was starting to search for... LOL!

[@PaulThird]

Autism works in many special ways 🤣

[@rockostiffredi4276]

Would love to try out the Topping gear. But I wonder how the driver support for their AD/DA will compare to the RME level of customer service? Especially as the Apple silicon Mac OS keeps steadily updating in the future.

[@PaulThird]

Topping constantly update their drivers. I bought my dx7 pro+ over a year ago and was sent their dx1 for portable use around start of the year if I recall. You just need to manually check every so often on their website but they do routinely update the drivers. In terms of customer service I can't comment but I've got l30, l30ii, dx7 pro+, dx1 & their new e4x4 interface. Never had to contact them yet with an issue BUT that doesn't mean they have good customer service

[@richertz]

Clear and very useful information. Thanks for putting this together.

[@PaulThird]

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[@delorusclaiborne3274]

This was a gooden 🍻 merry xmas 👍

[@PaulThird]

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[@murraywebster1228]

I got my BABYFACE at launch, long time ago, still works perfectly, only problem I had was the breakout cable extension, and that’s not actually from RME, and by the way the BABYFACE has been in my carry-on bag all the time and been around the world many times, still works perfectly, still gets very regular firmware and driver updates, best piece of audio gear I ever bought. Give my regards to Dundee, born and brought up there, was part of the original Dundee Dance Factory, FAT Sam’s and all that, many moons ago…..

[@PaulThird]

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[@robbiemichaels2347]

Long live the king. Fantastic information Paul

[@PaulThird]

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[@cobrabucket]

Thoughtful and insightful video. Subbed!

[@PaulThird]

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[@akagerhard]

I strongly recommend to get a great interface in the first place... it will scale great with anything you throw at it for a long, long time, without needing to replace parts of its functionality with specialized units. My second interface was a RME Babyface Pro and based on the numbers, there really was (and is) no rational reason to upgrade (but who says I'm rational?). My "best" headphones are 250 Ohm from Beyerdynamic (DT 1990 Pro). That's about 500 Bucks worth of Headphones and the T.H.D. is at 0,05 % (1mW/500 Hz). According to the specs my good old RME Babyface Pro (Max power @ 0.1% THD: 60 mW) is able to run it at very decent levels (0,01 mW are required at 75 dB, 0,05 mW are required at 85 dB, and 2,51 mW are required at 102 dB (I don't monitor that loud on headphones - ever)) without breaking a sweat. So if I was to mix on headphones, I highly doubt the distortion would determine wether my mix was awesome or not. I genuinely believe that buying an ADI-2 Pro (for speakers) or an L30 (for headphones) only makes sense if 1. You use it as your main monitoring path (not a secondary to "check things"), 2. You are a professional that can hear the grass grow, 3. Your Monitors(and room...)/Headphones ALLOW you to hear the grass grow, 4. you have the money to spend. Merry Christmas to you and yours, Paul! Have a beautiful and wholesome time! PS: Important video! I doubt many people can follow the math though (I use a website to do the math for me).

[@PaulThird]

You too hope you have a great end to the year 🤓

[@Studio22mix]

Those are the words I was looking for “ If you can hear the grass grow “ 😂 Perfectly said lol 👊🏼

[@PaulThird]

You'd be very surprised at how much THD it takes to colour a sound. Its not as much as you think. That's why the percentages are used. If your translation is there then don't worry but I know a lot of guys that have told me that clean headphone amps sound sterile, cold & harsh.. That's cause its revealing, it's not complimentary like coloured amps. Like very good speakers, you'll normally find speakers with minimal distortion to sound "revealing" and "more detailed" because there's no distortion to essentially mask the sound. Just think about a preamp, very low levels of distortion in most cases but definitely shapes the sound, like a 1073 for example or a u47

[@akagerhard]

@@PaulThird We're still talking sub -80dB in most cases, right? Come on, I don't think comparing an okay modern interface (and its DAC) to an oldschool coloring preamp is fair by any stretch of the imagination. Let's not forget that one has to own such great speakers AND the according room in order for this little DAC distortion to play any practical role in the first place. I don't think there IS such a room on this planet. Granted, Headphones are different. That's why I gave my example. Even with 500 Dollar Headphones, a 800 Dollar interface is the STRONGER link in the chain. Yes, 10 or 20 dB of difference is a lot. But 20 dB of difference within a range that is inaudible is still inaudible. What are we realistically talking about here? Certainly not something that will influence mixing decisions. Here is an example. My parents had very good "2layered" glass-windows built in their house when they bought and renovated it 20 years ago. Now there is 3 layer glass and my father said that some glass isolates 3 times better than the glass they purchased. And that sounds like a lot! 3 times! But realistically, 3 times almost nothing is still almost nothing and there are other factors that have a way stronger impact on humidity and the heating bill. We went through it and agreed that it makes 0 sense. Yes, on paper it looks like a lot (just like 20 dB are a lot), but in reality whether something is at -120dB or -100dB is utterly irrelevant, while the difference between -80 dB and -60 dB is incredibly relevant. *edit* I should say relevant to humans! I'm sure the difference between -120 dB and -100 dB is very relevant to some animals. But you get my point.

[@PaulThird]

Id say at like -80db it does audibly colour the sound but you are talking to someone that hears aliasing at -80db haha Again it depends on the quality of your chain and how hungry your headphones are. I'm dealing with low ohm planars with very low sensitivity so my needs may be different to many others. Tbh a neve preamp may only make harmonics at like -80db. When pushed yes a lot more obviously but in actual use its not as high in level as you may think, plus remember what you may read in manuals regarding headphone amps is in many cases a 1khz sine tone, not a full frequency sweep, so you are not seeing the full picture. There are variables but I would say that in regards to monitoring, distortion affects the sound more than you think. That's why speakers are so fucking expensive. To get low distortion levels in speakers you have to sell a kidney! 😂 If you keep it inaudible then no worries but it's very case sensitive. Dependent on matching the headphone to the amp I don't see RME being an issue at all. They knew their shit even 10 years ago but I don't go deep into their specs like the UFX and stuff. A coloured sound can definitely impact mixing decisions though. Impacts your transient detail, top end brightness, even how the low mids "feel". But as I said how much of an impact is down to the quality of the entire chain. At -80db THD+N in an amp you would still be able to mix records 100% if the rest of the chain is clean, even if its not, you still can but in regards to that extra detail you just need to be aware that your sound is coloured. That's why I talked about context, and why there's no logical reason for a RND hp amp to cost 3x the price of a topping

[@Geor_Wit]

I'd be curious to see a component comparison on the products you mentioned. Just for fun.

[@PaulThird]

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[@Rhuggins]

Yep

[@igorbeuk4068]

still it will add to total sum 😃 great style in introduction just like it is with current Music that needs to catch attention in first 20-30sec. Great Video

[@PaulThird]

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[@MFKitten]

Don't you just love the idea of "professional pricing"?

[@PaulThird]

Get a brand name on it and charge what you want haha

[@akagerhard]

Funny that you mention it. There is an audio channel that once used that phrase "professionally priced" (couple of years ago). I commented on it, because I found this to be a very strange term, since the pricing is always professional - whether it's a cheap toy for children or an expensive car for millionaires. It's the product that is sometimes aimed at professionals or not. After a little back and forth I think I got my point across, because I was informed that "proffessional pricing" developed into a running gag at their studio. It's a funny, funny term!

[@vecchiuz2143]

Great video thank you! I have an audient ID4 and i m planning to try the vsx headphones (32 ohm). In the video from Krause i ve understand that the audient can t run properly Low impedence headphone. A topping l30 Mk ii is the solution i guess

[@PaulThird]

Yup that's the one 🤓

[@vecchiuz2143]

B​@@PaulThirdthank you very much!! I appreciate a lot your help!! Marry xmas

[@StuBiddyBop]

Do you have a video on gain staging… would be good to have your input on the topic 👍

[@PaulThird]

In what way.. In plugins?

[@StuBiddyBop]

@@PaulThird Yes, I’m trying to create a more professional sounding mix and I’ve been tinkering with clip gain and gain levelling plugins, ones that write automation and so on… and also just wondering how precise the gain structure of plugins needs to be, should I be exactly on -18dbfs all the time as an average goal, not care if going into a plug-in without analogue emulation and so on, would be good to have your insights.

[@PaulThird]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zl6Vq4eDn7V0p80

[@viktorkigyos3839]

That was informative! Thanks, Paul!👍

[@PaulThird]

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[@buzznightmare8433]

I use the ADI-2 FS for monitoring measured at THD (-110 dB), but as a drummer all I know is that when I mix overheads and start to hear cymbals their way to fucking loud!

[@PaulThird]

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[@FedericoDigeronimo]

I agree on everything, but one thing: headphone amp output impedance doesn’t change headphone frequency response on flat impedance headphones. Check your headphone impedance curve. Flat impedance headphonse react to different amp output impedance in terms of power at any given frequency. I have an SMSL SU-10 DAC, feeding a Topping A70 pro (balanced mode) output on an Hifiman Arya Stealth, calibrated with a GRAS mic system and eqed with a convolution eq up to 10 kHz (also crossfeed going on). Trust me, there’s not even a pinch of non linearity.

[@PaulThird]

That's why i said high output impedance affects low ohm DYNAMIC headphones. It won't affect planars like your hifiman arya but it will affect low ohm dynamics

[@FedericoDigeronimo]

@@PaulThird my bad! I might have missed that! Sorry!

[@paulcrompton6654]

Great piece of information Paul 🙂 ... The TOPPING L30 II Headphone Amp looks great, can I ask would this be ok to use with a headphone splitter? .. Also what would you suggesting would be a great alternative to the old M-Audio fast track ultra, that would take into account the use of a headphone out device? I use the Beyerdynamic DT 770 Pro Studio Monitor Headphones, 250 Ohm, do you think that this would all work together well? . Thanks and all the best 🙂

[@PaulThird]

Topping e4x4. Some of the best headphone amps you'll find in an interface. And very well priced. I've been using it for recording my podcast And no I wouldn't advise l30ii via headphone splutter

[@iikatinggangsengii2471]

yes it should sound well on smth like k7

[@anthonyrock5039]

The price of the Hylo seams to be much higher than when I was looking at it some years ago wow!

[@PaulThird]

And it's not even that special compared to modern DAC's. My topping dx7 pro+ tramples all over it and it's less than 4x the price

[@monkmusic5994]

Paul, what about the longevity of these Chinese Topping products???

[@PaulThird]

Hard to say. I'll let you know in 5 years time. Topping l30ii is still going strong after a year and a half and my dx7 pro+ has had over a solid years use and not one issue. Had it connected to speakers and 2 headphones at a time. Fuck even the dx1 is still working for my portable setup and that's been a year in and out of my bag

[@monkmusic5994]

@@PaulThird thanks Paul. Yes, let me know in 5 years. I also bought a Topping in September though. 👀

[@b4time718]

Interesting stuff Paul. I had never even heard of Topping before. Got beyer dynamic dt 880 pro 250 ohm semi open back headphones a couple of years ago. Found that the Scarlett 2i2 (yes I am cheap) could not drive them to adequate levels so I got on SW and picked up a Mackie HM4 headphone amp for like 40 or 50 bux. It seems to be ok but your video has me wondering how badly it stacks up specwise. The output resistance is 47ohm which should be fine for a 250 ohm headphone but not enough for the 600 ohm version. Distortionwise I have no idea. As I said it seems "ok", but I have often wondered if I am shortchanging these headphones?

[@PaulThird]

At £30 for a 4 way you are 100% shortchanging your headphones. Too high an output impedance and the fact that even the manual has no specs other than output impedance screams bad distortion. That for me is a headphone amp you'd use for tracking not mixing

[@b4time718]

I suspect you are right.

[@poulwinther]

Great stuff Paul! Do you know anyone who measured the Ifi Zen Can headphone amp?

[@PaulThird]

www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/ifi-zen-can-review-headphone-amp.25224/

[@kilkaserco]

Think I'm in the Third camp 😂 Although I can't buy anything until I've read every review on the internet. That goes for everything from audio gear to a kitchen spatula. 😅

[@PaulThird]

I binge watch anything I'm thinking about buying haha

[@thedarksoul2104]

Hey Paul! Have you tried the new Realphones 2.0? It is quite amazing imo, would love a review.

[@PaulThird]

Yeah I think it's a definite improvement. If they pay me again I will make a review

[@tonyrapa-tonyrapa]

I totally agree: the price these days should justify the quality and service of the product rather than technical spec. Spec is practically meaningless now. But you don't want your nice piece of gear braking down on you.

[@PaulThird]

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[@henrikpetersson3463]

And things can change unfortunately. I invested heavily into UA much because of their excellent customer service. Which was from my experience great. Now it has turned into absolute garbage as they started having an identity crisis. As you mention though there are a lot more costs to running a business than just producing the products. Some of them will invest more heavily in their brand, marketing, staff, design, offices, support etc. and they will need to put a higher price tag on their products to be able to maintain that. Others keep a lower profile and are able to make gear that is as good or better at a lower price. A few manages to find a perfect balance there. Yamaha is a good example. A huge stable company who continues to put out quality stuff at excellent prices. You have to admire them for that. Whenever I see their brand on something I know that it might not be the best product in the world, but it will be worth the asking price.

[@0e0]

I had a friend that was doing his PhD in music technology...and one of his jobs at the Uni was to do the "measurements" and to make the attractive "science" for the manufacturers ha. which is why that school has big buildings down town for their music technology program.

[@PaulThird]

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[@jackveranda]

Paul can I ask you.. Do ye use the ADDC on converting your track as a final render? Or can you use it before the sound card when recording voice or amps either DI Or in through XLR say? What I mean is 'when would I use it in my wee set up' Cheers Paul. Jack.

[@PaulThird]

My DAC is purely for monitoring.

[@cekirdekci32]

Paul Third💕i m a beginner mixing engineer but a producer with 10 years experience. I use apollo twin and apollo solo. Do I still need topping? I dont mind paying to get a better detailed sound and quality experience, I love what I do. I wanted to know is it for people who dont own an audio interface?

[@PaulThird]

I would say so

[@mr-iz8cx]

Thanks for this video

[@PaulThird]

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[@RaunoPaananenAudio]

Very good video!!

[@PaulThird]

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[@robertopistolesi2735]

Hi Paul, I've just purchased a fiio K7 and waiting to receive it. I don't really know nothing about specs, so I've followed a few reviews and threads about it. My question is, having myself an evo8, do you think that the fiio's conversion is so much better than the Evo? My doubt exactly is that I probably only need a very clean headphone amp. What do you know/think about this? I count on trying to connect the outs of the evo to the fiio's amp and check the difference, but I only have my ears to judge, and someone like you could really help in this matter. Thx

[@PaulThird]

I would say the K7 will give you everything you require. It'll definitely give you better headphone performance than the audient and probably a slightly better DAC.

[@0e0]

the Chi-Fi scene is crazy right now. I have $25 IEMs that are some of my fave monitoring setup these days.

[@PaulThird]

Chi-FI scene has changed the entire landscape. That's why Amir is so chastised online cause he created a platform to prove that performance is achievable at and affordable level. Rocked the industry and they are still battling it today. You'll hardly see any topping gear in older "established" studios cause they deal with who they deal with. There's no Topping or Hifiman reps going around studios, fuck it took me over 2 years just to get a contact at topping and hifiman. Chi-fi has no marketing power and that's the way the industry wants to keep it but it's slowly becoming more ingrained into the industry as newer producers and engineers come up with more knowledge than before

[@busywl69]

I gavcce up hardware a long time ago just because it was frustrating not being able to get the toys I REALLY wanted due to the pricing. Now if I add up all the plugins I have the total would be way less of what a proper Moog costs. My ears just isn't hearing anything I'm missing when I hang with my hardware audio bubs.

[@PaulThird]

I know some proper old school synth geeks and many of them stick with the plugins cause they know how to program them to get the sound they want

[@busywl69]

@@PaulThird yeah, the old school guys know how to get the most out of gear and approach plug ins differently.

[@iikatinggangsengii2471]

thing is anv always been even rarer than tm iirc, handmade production also make ordering/queueing 'worse'

[@dodgingrain3695]

What I take from this video is some people waste money on headphone amps. Even something like the toppings are a waste of money. Most end users are listening to music on airpods off an iphone and having a crappy headphone chain is perfectly fine for referencing mixes, recording, etc. in a studio. Save the precision for proper monitors in a treated room.

[@PaulThird]

You shouldn't scrimp on any part of your monitoring chain if doing this professionally. The same argument could be had that most listeners are listening to mixes on Bluetooth speakers and alexas in untreated rooms so why save the precision for monitors 🤷‍♂️

[@MrACangusyoungDC]

Yes, of course, but the best old guitar amplifiers like 70s marshalls and stuff like that was much more expensive before. They were all priced like suhr and friedman amps of today because they were really well built and serviceable. Buying a 70s Silver Face Fender is really good value for money if you want it to last your lifetime which music gear and instruments actually provenly does. Try that with being a car hobbyist or race carbon fibre bikes in the weekends. And yeah, Marshalls have been worse since 1983. Psionic Audio is like Dan Worrall of guitar amps. That channel is really interesting and it's great that it romanticises the appeal of vintage stuff. Young music people of the internet love to say that nothing matters anymore and hate tone geeking. And about distortion, Paul: I have this quite unproven theory that distortion can be like how dust in a barn or smoke on a scene can help you trace rays of the sun comming through the crack in the wood or the spotlights. We can definitely hear the shapes of transients or dynamics in volume on it's own but distortion might just us further. That nonlinearity of distortion changes the frequency of the element as dynamically as the volume itself and according to my theory we're sensitive enough to that that it actually helps us hear things more clearly in a way. You know, 3d quality in tube mics and such. Some signal are clearly up close and some are more back in the room and the way the preasures differs, the distortion colours different volume and transients in way that we're sensitive to. Because it's actually hard to deny that 3d thing and it must come from something and we can really only measure that tube mics are more saturated when they're really well made tube mics and are compared to really well made counterparts. I also think that the typical great tube cicruits has a nonlinearity that is the perfect nonlinearity for this. I think of it as an distortion equivalent to a soft knee or something like that, compared to a hard knee clipping thing. That type of smooth knee thing is also related to the "high resolution" thing that is another expression. Full wide range in that soft knee thing. I think it's dust in a barn and it also makes sense with that too much tubes in chains sort of become too much dust in the barn. Like pre Abbey Road Beatles tube boards that weren't as clean as Abbey Road. But that later solid state desk they need to be relearn their workflow because the overdrive was much more sudden hard clipping than the tubes. Sometimes, I also think it could be purely low-mids that might be more directional and more 3d to our ears. Wow, I wrote that fast, and sloppy, because it's really intriguing stuff, and it's related to some of those special acoustica channelstrips colours and such. But I very much see your point of this video of course. I mean especially on the topic of monitoring. But if ever distortion ever would be even not only bad in monitoring it would be something this? Probably not, this was much more for another topic.

[@PaulThird]

That's why i specifically chose monitoring as its one of the only things in audio where as linear a system as possible is mutually agreed. Amps, mics, compressors, preamps.. They all suffer from tone which creates subjectivity and makes most measurements pointless. That's why it's hard to pin a price on those as its so much easier to suggest that something sounds better tonally. You've got proper non linear behaviour and tons of subtle complexities that makes it easier to abuse perception.

[@parthmehra8630]

thank you for this informative video

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@TheJonHolstein]

I saw in the comments that you have Topping E4x4, what kind of latency performance are you getting in studio one, with windows? Supposedly RME has really good USB drivers, and presonus with their quantum, had even better performance but that is over thunderbolt.

[@PaulThird]

Whatever Julian Krause measured in his e2x2 review. Has zero latency monitoring though which is really handy for when I record the podcast as its got monitor mix in the software so I can toggle between playback and the direct signal

[@TheJonHolstein]

@@PaulThird It seems they have some way to go, when it comes to latency. I guess I have to hope that they make a ADAT pre-amp (or interface with ADAT and stand alone mode), that way one can at least expand a system with their great value converters. I also don't get, why they don't have a single headphone amp solution with both digital and analog built in to the same unit.

[@PaulThird]

How do you mean digital and analog? Are you referring to DAC amp?

[@TheJonHolstein]

@@PaulThird They have one series of headphone AMP that are analog inputs only and one series of Headphone DACs that are digital inputs only. No product that does both digital and analog inputs a single unit.

[@PaulThird]

My dx7 pro+ has optical, XLR, coax, Bluetooth, AES

[@daviHuggMonster]

I started using a monitor mix going through my palmer monicon L when I stream. The headphone out on the presonous AR12 is kind of meh for the headphones I own (low ohm) on the palmer its really good, no need to gain up much

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@thegroove2000]

Music/mixing is also subjective. Senses are not equal. We hear and perceived things differently regardless of objectivity.

[@PaulThird]

Yup and that's why we need as linear a system as possible for monitoring

[@thegroove2000]

Distortion can be good especially saturation used creatively especially when analog hardware is pushed into clipping and that is a non-linear characteristic@@PaulThird

[@PaulThird]

Yeah but you don't want that for monitoring

[@thegroove2000]

@@PaulThirdAs close as can depending on the correction for example say headphone monitoring whereby flat doesn't always equate to fixing the issues in the frequency response. My beyerdynamics headphones have a few EQ tweaks to deal with issues which a custom curve in sonwaworks. I got it from Amir's website.

[@thegroove2000]

Interesting topic. Have a nice holiday.@@PaulThird

[@Audesi]

If you want Elma switches for easier recall, it’s like an additional $2,500 added to the price, just for some knobs. lol

[@PaulThird]

No thanks 🤣

[@fen3184]

I'm very happy with my Topping DX3 Pro+ :)

[@PaulThird]

So you should 🤓

[@jloiben12]

About headphone amps, I find it funny that people would brag about the HA not being good

[@PaulThird]

It's called "justifying your purchase" 😜 haha

[@andriskissproducer]

Amazing video 👌🔥🔥🔥

[@PaulThird]

🤜🤛

[@1loveMusic2003]

Nice work!

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@Sjobeck7]

This guy is faw-king kool! Just subscribed.

[@PaulThird]

🤜🤛

[@Dobrovinskiy]

Very informative

[@PaulThird]

👍

[@Ra_Sharpness]

Some dude took apart all these famous guitar amps and found out it was a scam and that the companies were lying and making shite up

[@PaulThird]

Is that the guy that does "the tone of a speaker cab", "the tone of a microphone" etc etc

[@Ra_Sharpness]

@PaulThird Jim Lill did that one, but it was some old guy who used to work for Marshall. KZbin recommended it after watching the tone one from Jim Lill lmao. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Paul

[@AtomEcho]

SSL yeah...had that one. Exact, noise.

[@PaulThird]

It's funny, my good friend told the issue to his distributor and they genuinely said "it's made for professional headphones which are high impedance.. " 👀👀 He then proceeded to tear into that, school them and handed it back as soon as he could haha

[@BCThunderthud]

Topping needs to make an interface, or at least an ADC. The comparison with Lynx doesn't really seem all that relevant just because the DA side is way more than good enough and it's not why people are paying that much. Doesn't make any of your points less true of course but I'd love to see something like that just to raise the stakes for the other manufacturers.

[@bugeyedmudafuka2]

They do make an interface. Julian krauss reviewed it.

[@PaulThird]

I've got their e4x4. Arguably the best headphone amp in an interface. It's just the DAC that's pretty standard. Preamps are clean and the ADC measured better than apollo x16 which surprised everybody. For the price it's an absolute steal

[@BCThunderthud]

@@bugeyedmudafuka2 Thanks. I looked at what I thought was their website and didn't see anything.

[@widedogg]

I distinctly remember discussing the topping dx7p+ with you on Christmas day last year. do you use your heaspgones more in winter to keep warm or something? all the best to you fella.

[@PaulThird]

No I just use them for mixing 🤷‍♂️

[@widedogg]

​@@PaulThirdjust spooky timing I guess!

[@loutang82]

As a fellow nerd-- your content is amazing. Non-related to your video, do you think Tom Morello ever worried about any of this?

[@PaulThird]

Doubt it unless he was mixing the records

[@loutang82]

@@PaulThird Doubt it could even be measured back then.. To your point, plugins cost more than his setup.

[@PaulThird]

Why are we talking about plugins?

[@loutang82]

@@PaulThird We're not-- fidelity ,in general

[@PaulThird]

Right... But we're talking about mixing and mastering right?

[@VST2323]

its the same thing with audio interface i only belive in rme and rme stuff they dont lie

[@PaulThird]

I'm still yet to find somebody say a bad word about RME haha

[@VST2323]

@@PaulThird YEA RME IS THE BEST THEY DONT LIE ABOUT THERE GEAR ITS AWSOME. IM TRYING TO GET THE UCX 2 AND THE ADI PRO FS COMBINATION FOR THE BEST AUDIO FOR MIXING.

[@asmundma]

Do you forget that headphones do not have a linear frequency response.?

[@PaulThird]

I never said they did 🤷‍♂️ that's why I've got videos discussing harman vs hifi curves. What I've said here is that you want your monitoring chain ie DAC/Amp to have as linear response as possible so it doesn't alter the sound of the headphone/speaker.

[@asmundma]

@@PaulThird yes, thats ok, no problem. However the small distortion in you are discussion in nothing compared to “wrong frequency response in headphone. In Nuendo the is a plug-in that can correct it. If you look at the correction curves you will really see this. I use high end RME (AVB) based, and I would never buy any headphone amp as there absolutely no need.

[@PaulThird]

That's why you invest in high quality headphones and eq it for best translation to speakers

[@victorcastrooficial]

But are measurements the end all be all metric for how good we perceive something to be? You seem to be worried about distorting the distortion, the input not matching the output, but that's exactly what you do when you eq, compress, saturate a track. "But it's a headphone amp, it's not mixing" IMO it's just another link in the chain of the real thing that's recorded and the reproduction I actually hear. The same is true for a mic preamp. Imagine you learn through experience mixing through a more linear headphone amp makes it easier to make the mix translate to other systems. Great. Does it mean it will sound the best though it? No. We need to stop letting measurements "inform" what we like and start using measurement to better understand what we actually like.

[@PaulThird]

There's a massive difference between distortion from a preamp and using non linear gear when mixing compared to distortion in monitoring. The preamp and non linear colouration is heard by every system, it's baked into the mix so everyone can hear it. the audible distortion in your monitoring isn't heard by every system, that's the issue. When mixing in a professional context your monitoring chain shouldn't audibly colour what you hear as that can affect translation. Any distortion or change to the sound be fully impacted by the listeners system, not the mixer or mastering engineer. Let's take it further to mastering. I mix a song and the mastering engineer should be able to hear the mix as I did and make the applicable changes if any. If they have a coloured monitoring chain then their decisions may be masked by that, therefore they aren't properly hearing what the mixer is hearing. The mixing engineer should have as clean a monitoring chain as their mastering engineer. Talk to reputable mastering engineers and tell them "I mix through a coloured and slightly skewed monitoring chain but don't worry.. It sounds fucking amazing 👌👌" They get it and add more top end and a bit of low mids and you tell them.. Wtf it's way too bright now and muddy!!.. They tell you your mix was slightly dull and sounded a bit scooped... You tell they have ruined their mix.. What's the first thing they'll say to you?? That's cause your monitoring isn't giving you the "real" results. If there's one thing many industry guys taught me.. Don't give anyone an excuse to question you. Cross the t's and dot the i's. Get the best monitoring chain you can afford first and learn the shit out of your tools you have at your disposal

[@DragonBiscuit]

The pricing of RND gear in general is just absurd at this point. I’m a long time Neve fan but it’s very irritating. That being said I own quite a few of their hardware pieces. Luckily, I purchased a lot of hardware before the crazy price increases in recent years. If you’re gonna drop the big bucks, I’d rather opt for some of the BAE hardware which is insanely well built and truly sounds incredible.

[@PaulThird]

Yeah the pricing for their Master Bus gear look proper suspicious to me. Yet to hear an audio example that can justify the price, especially the new transformer unit

[@jackflynn-oakley1937]

@@PaulThirdmastering gear in general, Maselec gear has legit nearly doubled in the last 5ish years. Take the MPL-2, 1u box with 2/3 stepped pots and a couple of switches, and they want the best part of £4K for it, just ludicrous

[@PaulThird]

Yup, analog has turned into "let's raise the price to stupid levels so people feel more inferior using plugins", again just playing into that psychology that it's better cause it's more expensive

[@shezwa]

🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@patricksmith4424]

I just splashed out 1200 pounds on an rme ucxii. When it arrived I wondered what on earth in there could be worth that money. I found out they use the high end sabre dac chips, oh so that explains everything. Out of curiosity I checked on the price of these chips. 3.50 UK pounds.. What!

[@PaulThird]

Yeah the chips themselves aren't that costly. It's the circuitry and engineering around it that costs. It's "squeezing everything" they can out of the chip that gives you the sound, also combined with clever engineering to produce clean and transparent as possible results

[@akagerhard]

I feel confident you won't be disappointed. RME is expensive, but good. Yes, some way cheaper gear seems to best them in some terms now, but I feel confident RME is still around in 20 years - and so will your interface. It's the conservative choice. You don't buy it simply for how it performs now (which is still very good), you also buy it for it's longevity and support. But yes, it's crazy what some chinese companies can produce now (and at what price). I didn't know it was THAT impressive. However, it is also fair to point out that the working conditions in china are not necessarily something one wants to support. On the other hand we all do, so why not do it with the interface? It's a tough spot. But RME certainly isn't a bad choice from where I'm sitting! Maybe a little bit irrational in the short-term - but it feels good!

[@johanolofandersson8801]

Well, you didn't just buy a dac. You bought a 40-Channel Advanced USB Audio Interface, so I think you should celebrate, and not really cry about it.

[@deareeMusic]

I just strap two guitar amps to my head, this way the distortion is audible and i am not tricked.

[@PaulThird]

Does they go to 11 though?

[@Thr3-Words]

👏👏👏👏👏

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@dna598]

"SEX times the power!"

[@PaulThird]

That's what she said

[@1loveMusic2003]

Ya everything is so good now so don't get sucked into paying for a logo.

[@PaulThird]

Wouldn't say everything haha still a lot of low quality stuff out there, even at absurd prices but yeah if you are buying purely for the logo then you aren't thinking straight

[@Swiftopher755]

Hi mate, would i just run the headphone amp from my uad volt or directky from the pc? My beyerdynwmics arnt as loud as id like, cheers

[@PaulThird]

Line outs of interface to input of headphone amp.

[@Swiftopher755]

@@PaulThird cheers mate

[@85percentcocoa]

use the headphone amp of your volt. my volt drives Sennheiser HD 650 with no problem and it sounds sweet.

[@PaulThird]

No wonder you struggling to drive them. The volt doesn't have a lot of power. 22mW at 300 ohms isn't a lot at all. To put it into context, toppings new e2x2/e4x4 interface provides this kind of power. The e4x4 is about £200 and comes with 4 super clean pre's. 580mW X 2 @32Ω 380mW X 2 @64Ω 198mW X 2 @150Ω 105mW X 2 @300Ω 55mW X 2 @600Ω Volt provides 84mW @32Ω 22mW @300Ω 12mW @600Ω So it depends on your headphones and how sensitive they are and also how loud you listen. Headphones with low sensitivity need a lot of gain to get the most out of them. Many people listen A LOT quieter than they should and with cans eifb low sensitivity you'll struggle to the get the low end to slam. In budget interfaces it's a lot about matching the headphone to the amp. That's the reality of it. The topping provides near 7x the power at 32 ohms, 5x the power at 300 & 600 ohms, AND has an output impedance of 1 ohm. So it can perform consistently with any headphone at any impedance and has enough clean power to drive most headphones with low sensitivity with minimal distortion (about -100db THD+N) Its all about understanding what your setup requires and matching each to get the most out of both. If you have headphones that are very sensitive then power isn't as much of an issue so most interface amps will suffice with higher impedance cans. That's why it's case sensitive with most interfaces HD650 for example "The high impedance means that it likes to have "high" drive voltage (at least 2 volts in my experience). The variable impedance means that if you drive it with a headphone amplifier with high impedance, e.g. a tube amplifier, it will modify its frequency response. That modification may be to your liking, or not. " Julian Krause measured the Volts output impedance to be 11 ohms. We should always be looking at a headphone output impedance of MAX 1 ohm. This means that those using low ohm headphones will experience different tonality compared with those using higher impedance and it's very possible that HD650's sound different through the volt compared to a low ohm headphone amp. You see its all about context and undetstanding the sound of the relationship between headphone and amp. You might like the sound but that doesn't mean it's not coloured or has a skewed frequency response. You won't know unless you have a completely linear amp to compare to.

[@Swiftopher755]

@@PaulThird didn't think it was so complicated mate, cheers for this

[@MartinMartin-yi9to]

Prices are quite a joke (look at RND DI). Used prices of "vintage" pieces are worst.

[@PaulThird]

Yup. Market prices what it wants, not what its actually worth

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

I heard an "audio reviewer" the other day who was reviewing an iem cable (a $300 cable) that had 2 different types of material twisted (silver and copper) He claimed that he could hear the sound arriving at his ear faster through one material than the other 😂

[@Allious131]

Yea because he's insane

[@PaulThird]

I'm not even gonna comment on that.. Jeesus 🙈

[@funkbungus137]

Someones gotta tell that guy the only thing that will cause this phenomenon is the direction of the braiding used in the shielding. Clockwise has to work against the Munchausen by proxy effect caused by the earths electrolytic carbonation process, and this process in conjunction with the rotational vector of the moon leads to latency, often barely perceptible. counter-clockwise of course has its downfalls, but its really no comparison,.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

@@funkbungus137 Yeah I'll tell him all of that after I buy myself a new chinstrap for my tinfoil hat

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

@@PaulThird I actually burst out laughing then realised he was dead serious, I can't believe how he can say it with a straight face but that's what happens i suppose when people can just make claims and never have to demonstrate that they can do what they claim they can.

[@davidperez909]

RND is overpriced. Especially the new MBT. $5,000 for a color box is nuts.

[@PaulThird]

Yeah it's really disrespectful to Ruperts legacy now in my opinion. Really milking it and hurting the brand in the long run. I know somebody that tested their DI and they were like "Paul there's genuinely no audible difference here, I feel like just sending it back. Sounds near identical to a cheap solid DI for live. £230 for this is a scam"

[@Hahejo]

Who in their professional right mind would pair a $500 headphone amp with a cheap DAC and 33 Ohm headphones? Now I'm not defending any manufacturer that sells over-priced products but as a buyer who would do that? You would normally get a good pair of headphones then get a good DAC and only then consider a headphone amp if your DAC doesn't give you enough gain.

[@PaulThird]

Most popular planars like hifiman and audeze are low ohm. It's all about the psychology of the user. Many will buy their interface assuming that's the only purchase they will need. Then they will usually buy a decent set of cans and then are told that their interface amp isnt sufficient enough to get the most of out of their headphones so they look for a headphone amp and the Internet tells them Rupert Neve is the way to go so they go down that route. Tbh when it comes to headphones some guys just don't know a lot so they simply throw cash at it cause they think that's the best way to get the best sound

[@Hahejo]

@@PaulThird I get you but planars require a ton of power to work properly. In fact my 50 Ohm pair of Hifiman HE-400S uses more power than my 120 Ohm Beyerdynamic DT-770 to achieve the same level of loudness. Does that mean that the distortion would get even more amplified?

[@PaulThird]

Well technically yes because the distortion is in relation to power. That's why RND started to rise in distortion from 1-3mW. That's why you need a headphone amp that can provide clean gain

[@thisscottishaspie5961]

🤓🤓🤓

[@PaulThird]

Remember to check out my autism channel if you want to learn more about my life 🤓

[@van_daddy_z]

Disagree with the assumption of this video. In terms of the ratio of price to modern income music gear has never been cheaper. Manufacturers don’t have large margins on their products.

[@PaulThird]

True in many ways but when you get into the studio side there is still a massive push for expensive gear just cause it's super expensive. Many studio guys will turn their nose up at an SP8 for analog i/O, call people unprofessional for using Chinese made DAC's, advise "premium" brand name headphone amps cause "they sound better" Watch Amir's video that I linked as a pinned comment. Theres a ton of stuff that's over a grand and people are buying cause they are told its more expensive for a reason when the performance is actually less than that of a £100 DAC I undetstand the ratio as a whole but in regards to what is "expected" from a "professional" studio the prices are completely outrageous

[@bighousemusic628]

They are very wicked to consumers just because consumers cant build the gears they used

[@PaulThird]

😔

[@peterorany]

Boom for music production not coming coz people need more music only plastic and metal producers need to sell and make money

[@PaulThird]

👍

[@hartyewh1]

Everything is priced based on the market with occasional mistakes one way or the other.

[@PaulThird]

I wouldn't say that. In DAC's it's so unbelievably random. You've got £100 DAC's out performing £1400 DAC's. There's no rhyme or reason in a lot of cases.

[@hartyewh1]

@@PaulThird All of the companies are making money. Some sell a thousand while another 50 pieces.

[@robertbradley3320]

You major in the minors, just like every other armchair audio scientist. The only thing that matters with regards to THD+N, EIN and the like these days is… Can I gain-stage in a way that allows me to reach my amp’s sweet spot before I hear audible noise. That’s literally it.

[@PaulThird]

Well no that's wrong because you need to ensure that your amp matches your headphones. If you have an impedance mismatch it affects the frequency response as well as THD+N, if you have headphones with low sensitivity then you need to ensure that there is enough clean power to sufficiently drive the headphones to get the optimum sound. If you don't drive them enough you don't get the best sound. Your low end isn't right, you lack the slam. If your amp doesn't have enough clean power to sufficiently drive the headphones then you bring in audible distortion that colours the sound. If your amp doesn't have the power then how can you gain stage? It's already at max power and it's still not enough. The case of "just gain stage it" is only applicable to a well matched amp and headphone ie a higher impedance headphone (that's not variable) with very high sensitivity.

[@robertbradley3320]

“Well no that's wrong because you need to ensure that your amp matches your headphones. If you have an impedance mismatch it affects the frequency response as well as THD+N…” I’m not wrong because I didn’t say anything about impedance, but yes I agree with your take on impedance. “…if you have headphones with low sensitivity then you need to ensure that there is enough clean power to sufficiently drive the headphones to get the optimum sound. If you don't drive them enough you don't get the best sound. Your low end isn't right, you lack the slam.” Yes. “If your amp doesn't have enough clean power to sufficiently drive the headphones then you bring in audible distortion that colours the sound.” Correct. “If your amp doesn't have the power then how can you gain stage? It's already at max power and it's still not enough. “ By increasing level on the DAC and feeding the headphone amp a hotter signal. By literally gain-staging. “The case of "just gain stage it" is only applicable to a well matched amp and headphone…” You can’t determine whether or not you even have a well matched amp and headphone UNTIL you gain stage.

[@PaulThird]

But what do you do when you've maxed out your DAC output level? I've got hifiman headphones that need a LOT of power. There's standalone headphone amps that don't even have enough juice to power Dan Clark stealth. That's why the specifications should be detailed on exactly how much power an amp delivers at various ohms. That way you can roughly match that to the sensitivity of your headphones. On the audient I would gain stage the output so it was delivering the max output without clipping and it still struggled to fully power the sundara properly. That's why I bought the l30 years ago. I didn't have clean power. The DAC can only output so much and it's up to the amp to adequately amplify that signal to the headphones. My case may be different to others cause I tend to go for low ohm planars with very low sensitivity but at the end of the day I can gain stage the DAC all I want but if the amp doesn't deliver the adequate amount of power then I won't get the most out of the headphones

[@jloiben12]

Neve is among the worst at this

[@PaulThird]

😅

[@Studio22mix]

I don’t really get those crazy super high end discussions. In my opinion the whole recording chain should be high end to profit from it. So starting with a very good room to record which will cost you crazy amounts of money. Then you’ll need maybe 120v high end preamps to profit from the 24bit headroom. Of course you’ll need top of the line cables. What doesn’t goes in can’t get out right. The solely reason for my monitoring is translation on different systems, so a club system for EDM, earbuds, car stereos, etc. Quality these days is really good compared to years ago it’s up to skills now, the nitpicking on perfection is nice if you work in a audio laboratory 🥼 😂

[@PaulThird]

Yeah we are genuinely just getting numbers just to prove a point now. Topping have proved it and then did it again with the Dx9 but I'm not budging unless they were to send it to me cause I know I don't need any more. I'm still paying off the dx7 pro+ 😂

[@deadscenerecords]

Agreed!

[@PaulThird]

🤓🤓

[@WorkingAudioTools]

🤓🤓🤓

[@PaulThird]

Remember to check out my audio podcast with Ed Thorne 🤓