This feels so idealised... - Destiny Debates NonCompete

Destiny debates an anarcho-communist.
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Date streamed: 08/11/2019
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[@politicaltroll8920]

Destiny looks like his parents dragged him to church in this debate

[@gemino4910]

These comments aren't funny

[@TheHadMatters]

@@gemino4910 ​ Thank you. You're all just reinforcing ideas you disagree with by declaring them humorous and spamming them everywhere. The reason you laugh isn't because there is anything funny about the way he presents himself (which suits him) but purely because you made laughing about someone's looks and what they supposedly say about their self-worth something "sarcastically funny", in an effort to feel superior to the people saying that same shit about you, and the easiest way you can come up with for that is to make their ideas your own, so you feel like you can dictate where they apply. But the easiest way to *feel* elevated over the people talking you down isn't the best way to *be* above them.

[@Soleilune1995]

@@gemino4910 I think it's funny.

[@Soleilune1995]

@@mikerphone. I don't disagree with all of Destiny's ideas. In fact, I appreciate the work he does on de-radicalizing the alt-right. But, I definitely agree far more with NonCompete in this debate in particular. I think Destiny was dangerously approaching right-wing/libertarian delusion about the merits of capitalism in this one, while ignoring all of its inherent flaws. Plus, he talked about how Marx is boring and he would rather die than read his ideas. And how he doesn't like talking about theory and prefers data. Not very intellectual, in my opinion.

[@lucasb.v.9348]

@@TheHadMatters So, is Destiny laughing on the bombing of Vietnam ok but laughing on his posture during the debate a crime?

[@attackonfuzzy4383]

So capitalism isn't 100% bad but a lot of the positive changes made to the system were due to certain social groups getting together to fight for the rights they were denied. No capitalist system gave the people these extra rights, people had to protest and revolt to get these rights.

[@Jay-zt1pq]

As I mentioned earlier, it seems like destiny starts the debate an hour in and just dismissed things to be combative or because he was feeling extra edgy this evening.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

@@rep-vile because the system IS the people. Not soemthing being used to keep them down until they realize it and try so hard to change it.

[@Jay-zt1pq]

@@rep-vile MLK not murdered maybe 🤔 thanks to freedom I guess we'll never have to find out thank God /s

[@HannesRadke]

On point. I agree with Destiny, that cultural and ecological problems are not exclusive to capitalism, but I believe a lot of these issues would be more easily solved without capitalists entrenched power over the system as a whole. Your average guy from next door has much more skin in the game than some detached person on a private island. Studies have shown the more power you have, the less empathetic you get.

[@muddman34]

The debate is liberalism vs anarchism and i can certainly argue that a strong liberal government granted minorities basic human rights. I don't think destiny argued that capitalist systems grant people rights they just use resources at high efficiency which means even the poorer parts of the county can afford luxuries like phones, internet, and fatty tasty food.

[@smitty7326]

When destiny talks to these people, it always seems like this is the very first time they've ever thought about how their system would work.

[@loganphelps4916]

destiny was in a debate in this debate

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

I don't even think that was true. He was not even listening.

[@eliza1826]

Shut up shut up shut up!!!!!@!@!@× BE FUCKING ORGINAL YOU FUCKING HITCH

[@nilsify]

@@eliza1826 triggered much?

[@xoranginho]

guu-uuuuuuuuuuh

[@friendlybanana4960]

Source?

[@jelly3374]

Destiny vs NonCompete Luna won

[@johngamer-bp3pc]

just like with trump and his fake news. its interesting how similar they are

[@axlglenn2156]

AustrianML lol a fucking Tankie shows up and get 30 thumbs up destiny community is more fucked than I realized

[@jelly3374]

F Glenn one million years gulag

[@nathanshlap]

Wow you're edgy

[@ghosty0612]

@Neon Noir America didn't have to kill all these people to defend itself though. A lot of it was aggressive action without necessity. You don't have to agree with those actions to defend democracy with capitalist structures in opposition to a communist society. Do you agree that Lenin executing a lot of people is justified? Aren't you arguing that America killing people needlessly is wrong? I sure think so.

[@laurenceharper2037]

"The burden of proof is on capitalists to prove capitalism has helped humans. Of course there's the world Bank statistic on poverty but that's a capitalist institution." I tell you these communists are genius.

[@Winasaurus]

"Well look how bad america is." "How so, seems fine to me." "Like slavery and women not being able to vote." Bruh. Vietnam textbooks must only go up to the 1900s. I like that he basically tried to brush off the entire 1900s and up to the modern day as "Oh well yeah it's got a little bit better, but like still" as if it's even REMOTELY close. I mean yeah maybe Vietnam ain't so bad compared to the peak of american slavery or the trail of tears. Though even then cattle ranchers didn't need suicide prevention nets outside their barns so idk.

[@oiaeyu]

Ah yes, the world bank who sets its poverty line at $1.90 per day you brain rotted debate bro. And where the majority in the decrease of poverty comes from the capitalist utopian state known as China.

[@Winasaurus]

@@oiaeyu China isn't anywhere close to capitalist utopia. Any company that gets reasonably large becomes incorporated into the state and entrepreneurs are practically nonexistant since competing against the state is a no-go.

[@oiaeyu]

@@Winasaurus exactly. You missed my point AND my sarcasm. The main drop in poverty in the world bank's statistics happened in China

[@Winasaurus]

@@oiaeyu Because as we all know, sarcasm carries really well in text. And even better when it's done for a comment that plenty of people say unironically.

[@MLPGamer44]

“Vietnam deserved it” - Destiny 2019

[@kalks4334]

oof

[@luisvanden2053]

@@Gnolomweb wow you smart

[@Feast4Majora]

@@Gnolomweb what does Vietnam being a country have to do with anything?

[@ktcool4660]

@Mike 89 "Vietnam ever ate Milk and cheese." I hope this is just trolling.

[@DudokX]

Basically for socialism to be stable in the long run, Socialist countries need to solve the problem of being outgunned and economically outcompeted by capitalist ones. And until that happens he doesn't want to live in a socialist country. The only solution that comes to mind but is really unlikely in the near future, is the global socialist revolution or something like that.

[@augustb.w.4778]

The most painful part of this is that destiny keeps saying that socialist countries keep failing, Noncomp keeps saying that Vietnam isn’t failing Destiny answers with some critique of how Vietnam is failing Noncomp answers with something along the lines of I’m not advocating for Vietnam’s government And then it repeats

[@harpsmith8570]

What I don't understand about leftists who are anarcho communists or tankies, why not just advocate for the Nordic model with redistributive government policies instead while keeping a base capitalistic system? It seems like the most efficient system of government and has pretty good outcomes for society.

[@augustb.w.4778]

@@harpsmith8570 as a Nordic person i agree

[@johndeer1866]

@@harpsmith8570 because they are largely useful idiots who buy into the “I can just be an artist or content creator once communism thrives” not realizing they’ll be placed on the wall and eliminated for being useless to society.

[@kristoffer3000]

@@harpsmith8570 Capitalism is inherently exploitative and it will ALWAYS lead to grave injustices. I say that as a Norwegian, we still have a lot of the problems that other countries have, despite our welfare state. Social democracies are just capitalism with a friendly face.

[@kristoffer3000]

@@johndeer1866 Is that why the USSR had so many artists and put such an emphasis on the arts?

[@panda-phat]

I disagree with destiny on a few things but watching this a couple years after the fact, no wonder NonCompete refuses to engage in hypotheticals now lol

[@Ryattt81]

Lets say that was true....

[@ThePainkiller9995]

Having thoughts is idealism bro

[@crigston]

the entire communist argument is built off hypotheticals of a ideal society tho

[@BullDykee]

@@crigston A utopian fantasyland that will never happen

[@crigston]

@@BullDykee yea

[@mushhs7395]

Destiny got his means of production seized in this debate.

[@hjge1012]

*reproduction

[@paulcar2356]

@FTW ALL DAY You kinda contradicted yourself. According to you the majority of the working class don't produce anything beneficial for society. Destiny worked in fast food and retail, isn't that an output for society?

[@mushhs7395]

​@@ftwallday3112 I don't know man, Isn't entertainment beneficial for society? Usually his debates are great and as you say he has been instrumental in combating far right talking points, but this should also be counted as work. Sure it's not a low paid overworked position such as the ones he used to hold, but I think that's an argument against those positions being overworked and underpaid, not that streaming or being a "content creator" isn't work. When Destiny reads up on a subject he usually has something interesting to say on it, it's just here of his own admission he hasn't done even the basic research. He spent hours/days researching TTIP but couldn't read a few chapters of Capital? It's just bias.

[@mushhs7395]

@@ftwallday3112 dude I'm a leftist, no need to come out swinging about billboards. Of course these platforms can be used for bad by bad actors, but we shouldn't disparage all content creation as not real work.

[@mushhs7395]

@@ftwallday3112 and yeah knowing "who daddy is" is exactly what I meant about Destiny's bias. He is quite smart and would probably change his mind if he engaged with these arguments properly be that reading theory or anything else, but he won't give it the time of day.

[@mizel101]

I love how he's here to dispel a lot of misconceptions about Anarchism, but the solution to every conflict is either "the black minority will need to just suck it up" or "violence".

[@Smerpyderp]

“Suck it up” is kinda how democracy works though. There will always be someone who “sucks it up” in any political system. The point is to reduce that number.

[@bjjkickboxing7876]

@@Smerpyderp the difference is that he claims that in HIS system racism would just INHERENTLY not exist.

[@octs609]

@@Smerpyderp except it does not. In a democracy when people want something it usually gets done, And its being done for hundreds of years.

[@edswangren6479]

@@Smerpyderp wtf are you talking about? You don't see any changes in our country over its lifetime? What a dumb comment.

[@Lupostehgreat]

NC: Stans over Vietnam Destiny: Oh, well how do you feel about this aspect of Vietnam... NC: I AM NOT ADVOCATING FOR VIETNAMESE SOCIETY... Stans Vietnam Destiny: Ok, but... Luna: TANKIE BULLSHIT!!! WHAT ABOUT YOUR CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!! THERE ARE NO VIETNAMESE POLITICAL PRISONERS AND IF THERE ARE THEY DESERVE TO BE THERE AND WHAT ABOUT WHAT THE US DO?!?!?!? Comments: Ha, Destiny is such an asshole. He lost this debate so bad. That'll teach him for questioning my magical theoretical system in my head where everyone works 4 hours a day, gets free pizza, gets to vote on their shifts, and we spend the rest of our days playing video games and watching free movies.

[@daan260]

pretty good summary I would say

[@asparagusrealizer11]

I love how liberals turn into "strength through labor" boomers when someone suggests not being forced to work six days a week by the profit motive.

[@glitchboard9452]

Non-compete's general philosophy seems to be "remove all the rules and people will treat each other better with 0 consequences"

[@averageflatchestenjoyer]

Noncomp is Rousseau basically

[@doclime4792]

@@averageflatchestenjoyer Rousseau was responding directly to Hobbes view of the state of nature which was equally hypothetical. Neither of them believed that nature exist or ever existed in these states. They're not talking in an anthropological context but in a highly hypothetical social context as a basis for their theories on the role of the state. Hobbes believed unilaterally in a state power because the alternative was worse, ie the state of nature. Rousseau rightly challenged that.

[@pokemasterhamertime77]

@@doclime4792”rightly” lol pretty shitty analysis in my opinion but im glad that there is opposition in the ideas

[@axlglenn2156]

1:01:10 Luna : “overthrow it” *uncomfortable laughter, noncompete pushes her out from video frame*

[@imgayasheck595]

And destiny got so triggered he started stuttering 😂

[@johngamer-bp3pc]

@@imgayasheck595 it just confirm his fears; violence

[@wibblemu9]

@@johngamer-bp3pc to be fair, if someone doesn't fear violence, there's probably something wrong with them

[@orbtain]

@@wibblemu9 Those who don't fear the very sword they hold are not worthy of holding one

[@1Nostrand1]

@@orbtain woah, deep.

[@MrManifolder]

Destiny forgot who lost the Vietnam war in this debate.

[@Nutcrackercs]

Well to be fair US didn's lose, it just failed to submit, genocide and destroy 3rd world country

[@lucasb.v.9348]

I don't get how can he laugh on that...

[@lucasb.v.9348]

@thesparitan Instead of reinforce the hostility, why don't you explain to me the context of his laughing?

[@lucasb.v.9348]

@The Barbell Back Squat You killed more, committed war crimes to do so and - accept it - still lost the war. Even part of US own army rebelled in field. Are you proud of a massacre in the name of a lost cause?

[@ElectricQualia]

Nutcrackercs it lost politically and militarily in the sense of not achieving its political goals. Thats how a loss is defined in military terms.

[@goodluckgorsky3413]

Me: *tries to look for general opinions about socialism vs capitalism in destiny’s audiance” The Comment: Either “Destiny did X in this debate” or something about Vietnam

[@xxxfairycorpsexxx7592]

This is literally me going through the comments xD

[@flipnskater]

The memery is too strong on this one

[@lancecereal3673]

eat your cereal

[@Shimansaji]

Destiny doesn’t count whistle blowers as political prisoners in the US?

[@joemunkey]

Not in this debate

[@BrandonG6822]

America is a thriving democracy in destinys eyes while socialist countries are hell holes that are brought on to themselves cause they too dumb to govern

[@atheistmecca971]

@@BrandonG6822 Vietnam is not a socialist country.

[@paulcar2356]

@atheistmecca Like every single country it has a mix of both capitalism and socialism. No country is purely liberal or socialist that does not exist.

[@axelnils]

paulcar You have no idea what socialism actually means, do you? Most countries have mixed economies, but that doesn’t mean they are part socialist, part capitalist

[@RR-fy5sn]

luna saying racism doesn't work in communism is hilarious considering that Vietnamese ppl themselves still haven't come close to solving racism among their native ethnic groups.

[@smiff513]

Yeah those darm capitalists oppressing the kulaks

[@Sky-ms9li]

Vietnam is communist?.? wat

[@TeriiTeri]

@@Sky-ms9li Yes it is. Do you just not know anything?

[@Sky-ms9li]

@@TeriiTeri Oh wait they call themeselves communist, that means they are communist, thank you smart internet person

[@TeriiTeri]

@@Sky-ms9li Their government and their economy is communist. Why are you speaking on this if you have no fucking clue what you're talking about?

[@africankoalabear6508]

Destiny was indoctrinated by anti-communism propaganda in this debate

[@HucklePeel]

Vietnam is a successful socialist country is "communist propaganda"

[@gemino4910]

These comments aren't funny

[@davidc5867]

You're not immune to propaganda

[@shady8045]

@Adam Dressler thats a strawman but what ever

[@euso2008]

@@HucklePeel Maybe, but it's also factually true.

[@sarinat3101]

Anarchists and people who advocate for anarchy-like dismantling of systems always seem to re-invent those systems as soon as they have to face the problems those systems originally addressed.

[@SilenzioDiEsistenza]

An anarchist who advocates? You clearly never met an anarchist.

[@walkthelonesomeroad1792]

Straight facts though. Anarchists are often times just as authoritative if not much more than the current system is.

[@SilenzioDiEsistenza]

@@walkthelonesomeroad1792 dont start with the facts stupidity. Culture is not fact. Its is not static. Its creative. So if you want to create a world without authority, go for it. But if you just want to generalise people into a dogmatic statement, in order to justify your own interest in authority, then you are just trying to pull anarchists into your framework. What are the benefits of authority or absence of it, lets start there. That is, do you want to live in a space ruled by the mind, such small function of the brain, or do you want to live in the world, in co existence, and co operation, free to be who you want, and create life as you see valuable? In many ways anarchy is allready part of our world, in libraries, freedom of information, human rights... Animal rights, The internet.. Authority is a kind of violence that uses our real physical dependencies, desires, interests, to define who we are, and affect our behaviors. Carrots and sticks and all that, not valuing the individual, not caring beyond the concept of a vague description of citizens, and 'the people'. Its just mindgames. We dont need those mindgames to create a wealthy society. Neither we need capitalism to create a materially rich society. People used to think they couldnt live without god, without religious authority. We threw of that shell, its part of our maturation as free beings. To go beyond the seed. To grow beyond the past, into the factual, the present reality. That is the meaning of anarchy. Not to be ruled by the past, which is no more there. Or by the future, which never comes. But on the basis of the here now reality. The same reality scientists and mystics try to discover or grasp on to

[@walkthelonesomeroad1792]

@@SilenzioDiEsistenza Jesus Christ. Leftist wall of text. And no, I’m not trying to convert anarchists to my “authoritative way of thinking” as I couldn’t possibly care to go anywhere near anarchists in the first place.

[@SilenzioDiEsistenza]

@@walkthelonesomeroad1792 you thinking i am leftist already proves you have no idea who you are talking to. Your conclusions matter more to you than who you are interacting with. What to say about your so called anarchists? I will call you little bull from now on. In rightist tradition. Not caring whether you agree with it or not.

[@jezzuh9120]

"Capitalism is a better system because yours is too weak to stand up to massive unprovoked aggression from outside forces"

[@AaronWeberGA]

Shows how deep the brainwashing goes for Americans.

[@justifiably_stupid4998]

Might doesnt equal right, but it is a prerequisite to being able to make the rules.

[@mikemhz]

@@justifiably_stupid4998 more brainwashing. America always claiming they are the greatest country. Makes them arrogant enough to try to become global dictators.

[@CroGamer002]

@@mikemhz No, it's the reality. How the fuck can you be great if you consistently crippled? No, great systems are those that overcome the challenges of reality. Not because they sound great in theory.

[@nilktots6380]

There are more stable transitional plans though

[@tarqinquentinsson-obviousl957]

when he said "assassinated political prisoners", I honestly thought for a second that he was gonna bring up Epstein

[@spencechan]

not actually a political prisoner, but rather a legitimate prisoner for actual crimes who happens to have political ties

[@Giemma3]

Serious question for anarcho commies here: If you make councils of councils of councils, that make decisions for everyone, isnt that a democratic government (Only difference is instead of splitting it up territorialy it is split up labour sector wise)? And now give those councils some tool to enforce the decisions they've made and we have police?

[@mrbadguysan]

Anarchism isn't a world without government, it's a world without a state with a monopoly on violence. If you really hate all these councils and refuse abide by then; you can leave and live in a state of nature. You can't do that in the modern day.

[@christiansmith3438]

As mrbadguysan said, the main difference is ideas of free association. In addition, while in some ways it's similar, this spreads democracy to a far greater extent than our current liberal democracy would, we don't simply vote on our political leaders but also on policy in our every day life, such as our work in the factory. The idea being you will have far more say in your life and your society than you currently do. The police would be included in this, though there's questions of whether the police would even exist in a recognizable form in an anarchist society given how much of police work involves having a monopoly on violence and the protection of private property (which wouldn't exist).

[@christopherlin4706]

anarcho-communism=localized direct democracy

[@trollingisasport]

@@mrbadguysan So it is what it is

[@johndeer1866]

@@Stop_Gooning communist systems can exist in capitalist societies but the inverse is not true. Somehow this means communism = more freedom

[@TheAarontheblackmage]

I'm sorry, did Destiny not realize the U.S. *LOST* the Vietnam War?????? One of the most infamous military defeats this country has ever suffered????????????

[@JetGoldPirate]

The US had the resources to fight the war for a very long time. The reason they withdrew was the American public’s dissatisfaction with the war and the collapsing strength of South Vietnam. People think that it was the US imposing imperialism on the entire people of Vietnam. The US was there trying to create a 2 state solution or one unified Vietnam that didn’t have communism. I don’t like the way that the US went about the war and I’m against the war crimes. They almost had a peaceful end to the war back in 1967-68. The US was negotiating a two state solution under President Johnson and an end to the war. It was stopped by that POS Nixon interfering with the peace talks to prolong the war. He wanted it to happen to win the Presidency in 1968.

[@JetGoldPirate]

The way the North Vietnamese handled winning was atrocious. They butchered countless people and forced them into re-education (concentration) camps when they had the power.

[@jaydy71]

@@JetGoldPirate The US withdrew. Whatever the reason behind it, when you withdraw you admit defeat. Mission failed. The rest is just could've/would've.

[@scantrontheimmortal]

@ahshdjt wjjdjfjejs The U.S. never had a strategy to “win” the Vietnam War. Nearly all of the fighting in the Vietnam War took place in South Vietnam, with some of it in neighboring Cambodia and Laos. The U.S. heavily bombed North Vietnam throughout the war, but never launched large-scale military operations north of the demilitarized zone that separated North from South Vietnam. North Vietnam, meanwhile, consistently sent forces - both elements of the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) and the Viet Cong - into South Vietnam. America’s strategy throughout most of the war was built around three basic ideas: Build up American forces inside South Vietnam and inflict heavy damage on North Vietnamese forces operating in the South to convince North Vietnam that they could never conquer the South on the ground. Bomb the hell out of North Vietnam to make the war so painful and costly for the North that they’d want a way out. Train and equip the Army of the Republic of (South) Vietnam (ARVN) so that it will be able to repel attacks from the North without relying on American assistance. North Vietnamese strategy was basically, “We live here, you don’t; all we have to do is outlast you by making this conflict as long and costly for you as we can. We’re not going to give up no matter how many bombs you drop on us, and sooner or later your own people won’t continue to support sending troops 7,000 miles from home to fight and die here.” The North Vietnamese strategy was better. Perhaps the easiest way to understand the Vietnam War is as a series of American tactical victories and strategic defeats. Nearly every time North Vietnamese forces engaged American forces in major combat operations, the American forces won the battle. Those were tactical victories. But every time the North Vietnamese demonstrated that they were still willing and able to fight, that we were in their country and they weren’t going to give up as long as we were there, and that remaining in the war would mean continuing to spend American lives and American money in a conflict with no hope of ending, they won a major strategic victory. The U.S. was trying to outlast North Vietnam. The U.S. did not invade North Vietnam in part because of the lessons of the Korean War; both North Vietnam and North Korea border on China, and when U.S.-led forces invaded North Korea China intervened in the conflict. The Korean War had ended with Korea permanently divided, and this was the outcome the U.S. was seeking in the Vietnam War, while North Vietnam wanted to unify Vietnam under their control. In the absence of a plan or intention to conquer the North, the U.S. was just hoping to outlast them - to make the war so costly for THEM that they would give up and accept a permanent division of the country. But they understood that staying in the conflict was harder for us than it was for them - this was their country, and they had significant support among the South Vietnamese population, and could continue to operate there no matter how many bombs we dropped or how many troops we had on the ground. Their strategy was also to outlast us. And it worked. So, did we “lose” the Vietnam War? We lost the war without losing very many battles. Our tactical (battlefield) victories could not stave off our overall strategic defeat. The U.S. withdrew from Vietnam because the war had become so toxic and unpopular at home that remaining in the conflict had become politically impossible. This is what North Vietnam was going for in their strategy; they were not thinking they could crush American forces in South Vietnam and force them to surrender; they were thinking they could drag out the conflict until the American people could no longer stomach it. The United States entered the war in Vietnam to prevent South Vietnam from falling under the control of the communist government in the North. The United States withdrew its forces not because it had achieved this objective but because it had reached a point where achieving it had become politically impossible. The Paris Peace Accords in 1973 ostensibly preserved an independent South Vietnam. But this was really just a fig leaf to cover American withdrawal; North Vietnam was clearly building up its military capabilities before American withdrawal was even complete in 1973, and it was clear that they were planning to resume the war against the South once the United States had finished removing their forces, as in fact they did. South Vietnam was overrun by the North in the spring of 1975, and today all of Vietnam is ruled over by the communist government that once only ruled the North. There has long been speculation that during the peace negotiations the Nixon administration basically asked the North to hold off on conquering the South until after American combat forces had been out of Vietnam for a few years and perhaps until after Nixon was no longer in office. The presumption is that Nixon and Kissinger knew the North would defeat the South once the U.S. was out of the picture, and wanted to use the Paris Accords to allow American withdrawal without seeming like the U.S. was abandoning South Vietnam to immediate conquest by the North, even though that conquest was all but certain to happen eventually. So the U.S. lost, in that its main objective in fighting, to preserve an independent South Vietnam, was not achieved. The U.S. lost because the price of achieving that objective - an open-ended military presence in South Vietnam which would continue to strain the U.S. budget and cost thousands of American lives - was not one the American people were willing to pay. Because of that, the U.S. left Vietnam, and in leaving, admitted defeat.But the North Vietnamese victory of Vietnam in the war didn’t matter much in the global scale. China was already an ally of US by the end of that war (and would invade Vietnam after its incursion into Chinese allied Cambodia) . And in a few years, USSR would lose its war in Afganistan. Ultimately, The Communist Bloc lost the Cold War.

[@cottonball5499]

@@JetGoldPirate there was no 2 state solution. The US cancelled democratic elections because, in the words of eight Eisenhower, “I have never talked or corresponded with a person knowledgeable in Indochinese affairs who did not agree that had elections been held as of the time of the fighting, a possible 80 per cent of the population would have voted for the communist Ho Chi Minh as their leader"

[@ProfDrLaeradr]

1:22 "I think it only makes sense to seek out and identify structures of authority, hierarchy, and domination in every aspect of life, and to challenge them; unless a justification for them can be given, they are illegitimate, and should be dismantled, to increase the scope of human freedom." - Noam Chomsky "Language and Politics" 1988

[@CorvusVidya]

But you can easily justify those structures. That quote only sounds good if you already believe structure is bad.

[@ProfDrLaeradr]

@@CorvusVidya which structures? The quote doesnt name specific ones, it just states the fact that you should always be critical of anything that enforces control over you or others and question whether its existence is justifiable or not. "But you can easily justify those structures" requires specific structures to begin with. Can you justify the police force in lets say Germany? Probably, to some degree. Can you justify the opressive regime in North Korea? Probably not. The quote is pretty objective in its message and just wants you to stay critical - and that should be considered a good thing ...

[@Jazzyluvsyou100]

@@ProfDrLaeradr Well if you walk into my room questioning the validity of social norms that you shouldn't have the right to rape my children, i think maybe being critical has gone too far. Oh yeah, and i can easily justify it, X group is more important than Y group, thus we will rape them to make X group more dominant... happened all throughout human history....... Being critical of things that you barely understand is also pretty stupid.... modern economics is a super complex phenomena, yet we have people who have read half a wikipedia page telling us how to organize entire societies.....

[@eugenesnow]

Ian Conway well if you really were to question the validity of why it’s bad to rape children you’d very easily (I hope) arrive at the conclusion that it’s justifiable in many ways. Being critical is objectively a positive thing even if you have only a sliver of empathy. Pretty much all civil rights accomplishments over the past century have come about by being critical of societal norms. Also the example you gave about x group and y group is a perfect example of why it is important to be critical. It is very easy to believe groupthink propaganda that justifies harm to the “others” if you’ve never questioned the status quo feeding you this information. Also that appeal to tradition was quite fallacious btw. While I do agree that being critical of things you don’t fully understand is pretty silly, it can create a quest for the information that can become pretty fruitful ykno. Marx simply was a critic of capitalism, yet his critiques influenced the minds that fought for our labor rights during the 19th century, getting rid of child labor and creating the modern work week and weekend. Critical thinking is good man. Just don’t be a dumbass

[@Jazzyluvsyou100]

@@eugenesnow Marx litterally uses x group isn't y group so x group must be dominated. Groupthink is incredibly important, it's why we don't have so many murderers, and far more practical things like sharing the same language. Every single argument you used can justify the status quo... And you think my example is fallicous? Yet you use Marx, who one of his underlying organizational tactics is straight up basic outgroup hatred. BTW, I never appealed to tradition, I was appealing to human nature, and no it's not a naturalist fallacy because I never proclaimed it as what we ought to do. Every single group does this, the marxists have their sacred cows, even Chomsky has his... Being critical of everything is how you get conspiracy theorists... It's also how get people who have 8 different labels tacked onto them so much that they cannot organize a political movement worth a damn.

[@jds614]

I know it's intrinsically difficult when dealing with a hypothetical system......but it's kinda annoying that Non-compete seems to think his hypothetical will just have like 9 different sub groups to fix all the obvious holes.

[@purple-flowers]

So the idea of anarchism is decentralization of power and horizontal structures. Creating groups to address different things in a society is inherently what an anarchist system is. It's not a failing of the system, it's there by design.

[@ErlingGrey]

@@purple-flowers this shit is over my head

[@Winasaurus]

"We don't really want any heirarchies, that's a real principle point of anarchism." "Well they could go to local factories and make a group." "If that's not enough they could make a group of groups." "If that's enough they can make a group of group of groups and go to the government." "If that's not enough you just fucking kill them lol" Total wackjob politics. Literally just inventing hierarchies while claiming you're not because they're not called the same thing they were before. The group is just a union. The group of groups is just a state worker's union. The group of groups of groups is just the department of labor. But because he's not calling them that he's pretending they're just not hierarchies. If 30% of black workers ended up attempting violence against the 70% of white workers, they'd get gunned down right back. This is how civil wars start. This is why a lot of the middle east is a fucking mess, because groups want power, but don't want a regular capitalist system, so resort to violence, which begets more violence.

[@johnnyvenus5435]

Damn this comment aged like fine wine

[@rev0lve638]

@@johnnyvenus5435 truly the ideal(ism) comment

[@ekmopon]

Destiny had a greasy face in this debate

[@GrahamSiggins]

Probably cus it’s like 90+ degrees everyday in LA lately

[@GrahamSiggins]

And he’s wearing a fucking sweater lol

[@jeremias-serus]

Graham Siggins I have a feeling destiny was that kid in school that always wore a jacket no matter what, including PE 😤😤

[@GrahamSiggins]

⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻⸻ dude true

[@TheLongBallofTheLaw]

Greasy face to match his personality.

[@sephose7441]

I havn't watched this yet, but destiny got something relevant about the video'd in this debate.

[@felidiafeatherbottom9134]

Just. The. Best. Comment. Ever.

[@MrMrbobo46]

I dont understand this

[@booombasa]

Destiny's chat is so meta i dont think even they understand it..

[@ReggieMeisler]

Non-Compete did an amazing job trying to discuss the nuance and complexity of these topics without freaking out at Destiny saying horrifying things like "Maybe imperialism proves that capitalism is good".

[@shady8045]

the chat didn't take it though

[@ReggieMeisler]

OreO the argument Non-Compete is assuming a shared value system, that the purpose of an economic system is to serve human needs, not to have humans sacrifice their needs to serve an economy. Do we assume that resources, if distributed efficiently, should result in every person having their minimum needs accounted for? Or by “efficiency” do we just mean what is “price efficient”?

[@kristoffer3000]

@OreO Literally arguing FOR poverty, how can you be this fucking dumb, holy shit.

[@NoFace-Killah]

Noncompete is dishonest on 2 points. 1. When him and the girl say Christianity is legal, that's true, but only the Catholic church is protected to practice there. Its why you ONLY see Catholic churches and Buddhist temples in Vietnam. 2. When he says there's no poverty in Vietnam that approaches poverty in the USA, that's complete horseshit. I implore you, just walk around Ho Chi Minh outside of district 1 for a little bit and you will not only see plenty of people living a 1 room apartments surrounded in trash and cramped in their own living space, but you'll notice a clear class divide as well, atleast in regards to standards of living despite the country being ruled by a "socialist" party.

[@beng7093]

LA alone has over 50k homeless people. Millions of Americans are living in their cars.

[@mattmcgowan7491]

@@beng7093 Ya it's not good but I think the point they were making is that Destiny never argued poverty doesn't exist in the USA, while noncompete argued it didn't exist in Vietnam.

[@Kitties_are_pretty]

@@puppet1-170 Why didn't Glorious Socialism get them the resources they needed?

[@RFLCPTR]

@@mattmcgowan7491 "No poverty that approaches the US" and "No poverty at all" are two different claims. Non-Compete doesnt claim that Vietnam is perfect or doesnt have any poverty, he claims that Vietnam is a lot better at fighting against extreme poverty, like homelessness, than the US because of the difference in social safety nets.

[@mattmcgowan7491]

@@RFLCPTR oh well that's cool then. I mean I would be shocked if that wasn't true

[@sph3re]

Destiny's "80% of America is overweight, so we definitely don't have a food issue here in America" is so hilariously disingenuous, I can't believe he said it

[@Andrearuch97]

@Jungle Estonian YOU'RE A COMPLETE DUMBFUCK

[@mrbadguysan]

@Jungle Estonian 20% of America's children are on food stamps, which can be used at fast food joints. The State is not only feeding people who would otherwise starve, it's to some extent feeding them into obesity.

[@lucianraphael9527]

Andrearuch97 You’re stupid. America doesn’t suffer from a food shortage problem, what it suffers from is fast food and bad choices within the population. A lack of proper food isn’t even the problem

[@mrbadguysan]

@@lucianraphael9527 there isn't a food shortage problem, there's a money shortage problem. Lots of people can't afford to eat in the US. Hell, up to a quarter of the child population has been on assistance during the last decade.

[@lucianraphael9527]

mrbadguysan I can agree with that. However even on assistance, a basic diet of beans, lentils, rice, bread and cheap meats like chicken would prevent you from getting fat

[@laflux]

Who is here after Vaush and NC

[@socialistmantis2671]

Destiny: but Vietnam has political prisoners >:( The US: has literal concentration camps

[@mrbadguysan]

A history of them, in fact.

[@imgayasheck595]

Not to mention cia black sites

[@August-p9g]

Amen

[@enju4013]

@The Barbell Back Squat the huge amount of Hocaust victims and their descendants protesting the ICE camps disagree with you

[@ivan134]

@The Barbell Back Squat there's a difference between a concentration camp and a death camp you smooth brained dumb fuck. Not all concentration camps are death camps.

[@emil246]

Destiny lost to the Vietcong in this debate

[@WhataGuy91]

Is your political compass a joke

[@Verde-s9a1]

That's gotta be an Anarcho Pacifist position on the chart. 😆

[@EyMeng]

Capitalism seems to me to be a hierarchical system, so I would expect an anarchist to oppose it on ideological grounds...you'd have to critique anarchism or explain how capitalism does not require lower classes and workplace totalitarianism to find his moralization a problem. Destiny still has moral axioms, so that may be where the conversation needs to go. Steven seems to think that Capitalism has nothing to do with the amount of climate denial in this country. Even though the propaganda has been funded by billionaires and conservative think tanks, whose ideology depends on the individualist rags to riches myth of capitalism. A flatter hierarchy would at all levels consider the interest of the working and poor classes, creating barriers to even the worst case scenario of a fuel collective unanimously pushing for more profits...when making more money doesn't give you more power then you won't be caught in a system that depends on you to accrue that power or be replaced by someone who will. Why else is every anticommunist leader installed via US-backed coup a corrupt power hungry psychopath? Power invites corruption, or else it forces you to corrupt things. What other sources of harm might he be missing by not exploring systemic injustice? Most of the world's population suffers because people take money when they need not or probably should not. The reason they do this is because money gets you power. Status-seeking behavior is a result of materialism which stems from the systemic disenfranchisement of class consciousness. Capitalism makes most people indifferent or blind to the mass killings backed by the US because rich people who own the media and are good friends with government officials keep it off the news and offer only enough controversy to make it look like we can solve things within the system. Epstein was probably assassinated or coerced into ending his life. A revolution wouldn't take as much as you might think...the US has its political prisoners, most of which are of course leftists...and the border concentration camps are benefiting many different corporations, despite their employees' not wanting to participate in profiting off of emergency...etc.

[@AgrippaMaxentius]

EyMeng Brilliantly written

[@asapbrooks743]

Great analysis

[@Odinsday]

EyMeng Pretty much my thoughts exactly

[@ugh_dad]

Hierarchy provides benefit as well as detriment, I would like to see a really sober/grounded breakdown of capitalism's hierarchy compared to an actually implementable alternative. As far as the profit motive for climate denial goes, why wouldn't Socialism have a similar profit motive? In Socialism's case the company stakeholders (laborers instead of shareholders) will be incentivized to create a labor surplus in order to work reduced hours, increase compensation, &/or social position (depending on implementation), so why wouldn't the coal mining & oil pumping workers advocate for the same things? There is no such barrier, it is just further abstracted, any society that uses a value proxy (money, labor credits, etc) will have power imbalance & corruption. We rank EVERYTHING, and we always have, having an ideology that wants to flatten hierarchy is all and good, but why should I expect that desire to be realized, in your vision of the future will we still reward labor in some way be it money/labor credits/etc, will some work be considered more noble than others, if so how will you avoid new hierarchies, power imbalances, and corruption, if not how will you get people to work extremely difficult non-desirable jobs like landfill management and road paving, or work at all? If you are able to eliminate hierarchy, we know how that that stratification allows for job specialization at the exploitation of menial labor, but how will we afford that without it? I would love a truly stateless moneyless egalitarian utopia, and I've read a lot of theory on how we can get there, but I've seen very little about what we will do when we get there or how to harden that society against corruption and domination. These discussions so far don't dispel these concerns bc for the most part they have just been: Capitalism is evil because it isn't this virtuous idea which is specifically no more concrete than in idea and criticizing it is criticizing the virtue itself so you must be evil too if you don't buy in. If you know videos, books, articles that address these concerns I'm all ears, I'm much more interested in exploring ways to make it work than "winning" an argument and fueling my growing disillusionment about it all.

[@lordxenu4867]

I don't like how nuanced and well expressed this comment and its replies are. KZbin should be a cesspool

[@Mablak200]

Hm I declare, maybe having 3 gentlesirs own half the world's wealth is the most efficient economic distribution 🧐 We'll have to run more tests 🤔

[@Jay-zt1pq]

Run more tests, use a smaller sample size, skew the results, torture the data, buy the headlines, run the country, rule the world. Anything is possible in *CURRENT year*

[@kalks4334]

@Guiuu Shurt Lol, you don't even understand your own ideology. He obviously doesn't mean the utopian term of economic efficiency, but the efficiency of a certain economic system.

[@user-wi3yx3gy2o]

It is about 80 million (1percent of) people who own half the wealth. Yeah it is a bit crazy that a) some don’t think this is a problem; b) most who think it is a problem don’t want to do anything in particular about it; c) most of those who do want to do something in particular about it want to raise taxes on a small sliver of the earnings of the top 1 percent, dragging in a much larger swath of high income lower wealth people, while leaving in place all of the various ways in which much of the the income and wealth of the top 1 percent go completely untaxed, have taxes which may be deferred indefinitely, or are taxed at rates which are a far lower than even the rates of tax on earned income, investment income, capital gains, and spending of low income wage earners and consumers.

[@user-wi3yx3gy2o]

Guiuu Shurt More “efficient” in economics means more than one thing. It can mean people can find a higher overall utility transaction for the marginal market participants. This comes about by better knowledge and less outside impediment. An example of this are the very strong, strong, and weak forms of the efficient market hypothesis. Socially efficient takes into account the utility force everyone, not just the marginal market participants. Thus, a slave trade, or selling goods to willing buyers for a dollar produced by destroying orvconfiscating 2 dollars worth of some third party’s property could be relatively efficient in the first sense, but not in the second. I’m pretty sure Destiny is not using “efficient” in the first sense. I grant that neither definition immediately or necessarily impugnes the 1 percent - 50 percent wealth distribution. However, the implication is that those with half of the wealth wield sufficient state power and possibly market power to engage in predatory behavior which would violate the second, if not the first sense of the term efficiency.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

@Guiuu Shurt at least you tried.... But you didn't take long to show your stupidity

[@downsjmmyjones101]

Destiny got overthrown by the wheelchair syndicate in this debate.

[@DahVoozel]

Did Destiny expose underlying authoritarian apologetics in this debate? Well, you couldn't stop him so it's obviously superior.

[@eugkra33]

I remember like 3 months ago when Destiny was still in denial and saying that far leftists and "tankies" were just a tiny population compared to the alt-right. I'm glad he came to realize it's like 50% of his audience.

[@joncolumbino744]

# compared to alt right and % of his audience are 2 different things dude

[@vidzorko4492]

im glad too, cause it led him to purge all of you rejects out of the fanbase

[@carelessmorning]

God forbid people are thinking of an idealised world instead of throwing up their hands and saying "what we have is the only thing we can achieve."

[@TheLongBallofTheLaw]

Destiny consistently uses arguments from incredulity. He feels it's fantastical, and it seems utopian, which is ironic considering how often he accuses his opponents of using feels-based arguments.

[@OllieMendes]

I mean, if you're a white dude in America making six figures why would you want the system to change? To help marginalized people? Nah, Destiny is operating on the fuck-you-got-mine mentality.

[@imgayasheck595]

It's not even idealised it literally needs to happen because this planet is going to die otherwise

[@hian]

I don't think that's a cheritable view of the objection to idealism. The objection to idealism deals with how to argue with a person who can dismiss any objection you make based on an assumption of the most ideal of circumstances without ever having to deal with concretes while at the same time bombarding you with concretes denying you the same venue of defense. If I propose we rob a bank and simply go "We'll break in through the back door, crack the vault and be out of there in 5 minutes.", you'd be right to want to question concretes surrounding how to open the door, disable security etc. If I just then respond with equally ideal and obtuse things like "We'll hire a professional" etc. the conversation never gets anywhere because then we'll get to the question of how you'd go about hiring a professional, to which you'd undoubtedly provide another ideal but unrealistic answer. The problem with idealistic thinking is that it allows people to continuously handwave away substantive objections and worries by simply providing new sets of ideal solutions to any challenges and never dealing with the practical reality at each level where they may fail. If you're going to convince me to rob a bank with you, you are going to have to provide me with a pretty in-depth plan that puts to rest most of the practical worries I might have at the prospect. Capitalism has its share of issues, but it can and does exist in many different states under various mechanisms of regulation that seem to work fairly well (the nordic model for one). It's not unreasonable to be loath to the idea of throwing out an entire system in favor of something else that has never been tried to success and is constantly argued under idealism rather than by honestly grappling with concretes. The two people arguing with Destiny here did little work in regards of addressing Destiny's questions and objections, and honestly, given my knowledge on the state of Vietnam and what can only be described as highly disingenuous and dishonest takes of the two, it's hard to find much trust in the position they argue for and how they argue for it.

[@imgayasheck595]

@@hian why did you write so much to say so little

[@The_Daliban]

59:00 The highest nutrient foods are also the cheapest and healthiest. Like beans, lentils, starchy roots, vegetables Don't let that bs slide

[@jcnot9712]

I hate that argument too because it shuts down the conversation of why certain parts of America have these issues. As someone who lives in an area full of Popeyes and other junk food but eats homemade, I can tell you it’s more of an addiction than anything. People lack self-control and education so they go pay more for a box of fried chicken that’s gonna kill them than it would cost to prepare food at home. There’s a lot that regular people in America are entitled to but do not get (like reasonable work environments and job market) but having your food both cooked for you and healthy is not one of them.

[@reduser3731]

​@@jcnot9712 TRUEEEEEE. Also a little anecdote from me, I realized that some people just eat junk food because they either don't bother cooking or they don't know how to cook.

[@jcnot9712]

@@reduser3731 that’s true to an extent. Many people grow up not learning how to cook or appreciating it. That in addition to being able to afford takeout means they never cook. As a skill however, it is pitifully easy to learn with all the free resources out there and I’m sure the overwhelming majority of people would learn it in no time if they were backed into a corner where they had no choice but to cook their meals. It also becomes significantly less time consuming as you become more skilled and learn specific techniques like prepping meals for the week.

[@beyoncehadoneofthebest]

Destiny got two people sent to Vietnamese prison in this debate.

[@Jay-zt1pq]

35 minutes in, yeah its just only the cops (the armed ser-I mean agents of the state "at home") with the ability to put black bullets through black holes in your black body and the judges with their black robes who throw you in a black cell to never see the light of day again (thanks to the insular nature of the syst- I mean prison-industrial complex) who discriminate against you for your black skin or culture! Clearly it's only them. No one else. Surely. No lawyers or anything. Say does any one know what judges and cops are before they become those? I forget personally, asking for a friend and neighbor.

[@Alexander-ns6xh]

@@Jay-zt1pq Sure buddy the vietnamese one party police state is on the same level as the US

[@Jay-zt1pq]

@@Alexander-ns6xh oh I'm sorry, did I respond with a what about ism? Well good thing you one upped me and provided a substantive argument for someone to debate against. You meme, I'll respond in memes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 👍 tho

[@firstplacegaming4146]

Alexander WhY ArEN’t ThE vIeTnAMeSe On ThE SaMe LeVEl aS ThE U.s. This is the same argument that is devoid of context that libertarians give to say that black people are on an even playing field and that legislation to help them is “reverse discrimination.” You realize that all communist states that haven’t been extremely authoritarian with paranoid leaders have had coups attempts(committed by the U.S. using the CIA) their leaders assassinated and had their region thrown into war. If you want a good example of central planning vs market look at comparable sectors where it is privatized versus nationalized. In the U.S. where healthcare executives skim profits off of people’s healthcare they pay significantly high than the rest of the first world where it is nationally organized and the profit motive is removed.

[@ksilva2848]

Lmaoed

[@ericvincentofinowicz5610]

"culturally turned on to anarchism" smacks me of the lolberts/ancaps non aggression principle, and that everyone agrees to play nice and not defect.

[@Breakbeat90s]

"US has no political prisoners" *CHELSEA MANNING INTENSIFIES*

[@theamazingautist2363]

Didn't she 1.) get arrested for releasing literal state secrets that potentially endangered active U.S. personell (tbc not saying the costs outweighed the benefits) and 2.) still spend less than the 15 years that some dissidents in Vietnam got for merely advocating in favour of democracy?

[@Breakbeat90s]

@@theamazingautist2363 isnt her prison sentence like 30+ years or something?

[@BrandonG6822]

@@theamazingautist2363 the fact i know all about the manning debacle and how wrong u are on that makes me believe ur prolly wrong on the rest of ur comment about vietnam too

[@theamazingautist2363]

Pangeaner Obama commuted it to only 7 years in 2017 (7 years after her arrest).

[@theamazingautist2363]

brandon gomez The Vietnam thing is something destiny got from Human Rights Watch that he talks about in the debate.

[@ColterHarris]

All the breadtubers are getting really, really angry that noncompete's debate here didn't go well. noncompete seems calm and levelheaded, but he has some serious tankie qualities. He’s all theory and has no actual rhetoric of his own, so a simple hypothetical trips him up. Also, I don't know why but... whenever I watch him or his videos, he gives me the willies. I don't know why and cannot articulate why, but he's like the Pat Bateman of breadtubers... in that there is just... nothing behind the eyes.

[@vesamirbaby4429]

"TRY AND HAVE RESERVATIONS ABOUT COMMUNISM NOW!"

[@jasonjason124]

Whereas Destiny outed himself as a complete fascist who thinks it's really funny that the US slaughtered 2-3 million people in Vietnam and his system is justified because it was in the position to perpetrate this rather than be victim to it, whilst pretending he cares that worker's co-operatives might not solve the problems of sexual harassment in the workplace.

[@lampad4549]

@@jasonjason124 how does that make him a fascist? And have you seen his other debates where he criticizes the foreign policies of the US?

[@jasonjason124]

@@lampad4549 Because the 'might is right' philosophy is a trademark tenant of fascism.

[@Winasaurus]

@@jasonjason124 His point is that a market that cannot stand in the face of outside pressures is pretty key on a planet with outside pressures. It doesn't matter if communism is rainbows and roses, if a simple push from another nation sends you toppling into a crippling poverty spiral and turns you into a sweatshop nation, it's not better than the one that toppled it.

[@thisisme6372]

If you want to talk about socialism just debate Richard Wolff already.

[@mr.e5595]

I second this. These guys did such a disservice to communism - not that I'm a tankie, but fuck these guys were terrible.

[@crazymonk27]

it's hard to keep your composure when someone steamrolls over you with dishonest tactics. Destiny has gotten more upset when other people do the same to him than either of them have in this debate.

[@drackaris_]

@@crazymonk27 can you name a single dishonest tactic he used in this debate?

[@Soleilune1995]

Noam Chomsky. Do it.

[@GeloKuhsang]

You leftist hipsters keep mentioning his name but he’s an old cook. “Economics professor” who teaches you to not believe in economics theories like they are secretly conspiracies by capitalists. You morons love him because he tells you things you want to hear

[@Plutophrenia]

I'm an Anarchist and this guy did not present the ideas well--AT ALL. Destiny was way too charitable.

[@thatguynamedskyy6756]

I basically came here to say the same lmao

[@ABPHistory]

@@thatguynamedskyy6756 you both probably aren't ancoms lol

[@somogoto]

"I cant adress these moral arguments under the framework of capitalism" that's the problem destiny

[@imgayasheck595]

@@rep-vile op is saying that destiny does not understand

[@redanwrong]

@@rep-vile the problem is, he doesn't have a framework for it and is, thus, unprepared

[@CrestOfArtorias]

Not really. Capitalism isn't concerned with morality, its amoral. Its an economic system not a social or moral system.

[@minecraftfan2087]

Of course he can't. Capitalism is a strictly economic system it says nothing about the morality of its outcomes. Communism is an economic system packaged with a moral system. Anyone who argues for ethical capitalism will be arguing for capitalism with the addition of some public policy designed to make the system more ethical.

[@minecraftfan2087]

@@redanwrong 1.) What you are talking about are not sub frameworks of capitalism, they are entirely outside the confines of capital. Capitalism is a specific way of organizing an economy, any policies suggested to make its outcome more equitable would be based on a moral framework entirely separate from capitalism. 2.) If Destiny accepted that a Capitalist society with good policy was somehow worse than a communist one then he wouldn't be a capitalist. Must be nice to assume that people who don't agree with you know they are wrong and are just hiding it. Nice to see that the commies have their own version of dogmatic presuppositional apologetics.

[@kristiansandsmark2048]

I love the fact that whenever you talk with anarchists or libertarians about how justice should work you always end up with a regular democratic society. The only difference is that i need to use something impractical like a truck of corn or somthing to buy a phone.

[@Sleepygamerr]

Yeah it’s basically what of we had democracy but made it much more convoluted and complicated.

[@SilenzioDiEsistenza]

A regular democracy does not exist. If you believe that you are living in a region that can afford some level of democracy. But even then, corporations are not democratic, and neither is your mom

[@matthewemanuel7722]

Destiny needs to debate Richard Wolff

[@JC-xp1dz]

@Guiuu Shurt lol just imagine Richard Wolff hold a lecture on anime

[@JJ-ls6el]

@@johnappleseed8146 idk if Wolff is renowned?

[@matthewemanuel7722]

DA REAL Johnny Appleseed I agree, but even a discussion would be fruitful for destiny and the audience.

[@matthewemanuel7722]

Sean Davis I would like to see that as well!

[@WayoftheDave]

Wolf doesn't have a clue how anything works in the real world. Listened to some of his lectures. As an economist and business owner myself, I genuinely couldn't believe the shit coming out of his mouth during lectures. Even theoretically his arguments were off base, never mind any reflection of reality. But he suckers in economically illiterate lefties from college with no prior knowledge. I mean even Marx was economically illiterate, he has no idea how anything worked in reality rather (even if he has valid complaints). So basing your teaching on flawed ideology probably isn't the best place to start to begin with.

[@yermil890]

That vietnamese chick was a great example of how a successfully indoctrinated citizen probably talked and thought in the ussr. Ty noncompete for showing us this great example

[@dragonore2009]

You know what is really awesome about anarcho-communism? All the crappy things people do to each other, suddenly and magically go away. The human condition is magically fixed and everyone is super nice to everyone or basically I just did nonCompete's complete argument.

[@ABPHistory]

human nature isnt to be "mean", you don't know anthropology

[@Rokaize]

@@ABPHistory human nature is still at odds with anarcho communism. You aren’t an anthropologist.

[@ABPHistory]

@@Rokaize human nature is determined by the base of society. superstructure shapes human nature, human's aren't inherently greedy, if that was the case the cavemen wouldn't have cooperated amongst themselves

[@Rokaize]

@@ABPHistory cavemen cooperated amongst themselves because it was in their best interest to do so. Surviving alone in the wild is suicide. It was necessary to work together in that environment. Doesn’t matter what claims you make about human instincts. This anarcho communist system still won’t work. You can try to rationalize all you want but it just doesn’t work in the real world with real people.

[@Bertinator-nm9ld]

​@@ABPHistoryHave you seen your brutal pretty much every other animal on the planet can be? Nature is mean. Society is a way to try to keep some of our more dangerous/unproductive natural instincts in check.

[@mittens2015]

"How can it be free though someone will have to transport it and process it, I'm not saying it shouldn't happen but..." *Supermarkets throwing away 40% of their products that are already transported and processed* "Why is it ok for someone to starve while a supermarket filled with food right next to it" "That's not their obligation though" So much for it shouldn't happen ig

[@reddishcat1]

1. Its the government's obligation 2. Nobody is starving in America. 3. "Can it be done better?" sure. Destiny is in favor of most if not all social/financial policy for people who need help.

[@mrbadguysan]

@@reddishcat1 lots of people starve in America. The ones who don't are fed by charity food banks and soup kitchens, or using SNAP. If the government didn't take a portion of my taxes and those of other Americans, 20% of American's children would starve

[@reddishcat1]

​@@mrbadguysan Please don't redefine words like that "starve [ stahrv ] starved, starv·ing. 1. to die or perish from lack of food or nourishment." The people laying in the street are sick in the head or addicted to something. They need healthcare. and life coaching. A simple social system they can roll into. and of course food (destiny wants this too btw)

[@carlcarlington7317]

@@reddishcat1 "nobody is starving in America" I see so many people who don't understand the true depth of poverty in America make this type of argument. "No one in America is really poor the poorest Americans are richer than 80 percent of the world's population" firstly the generalization makes this easy dismiss. I know a guy who lived in a car in the Navajo reservation for 5 years whom on multiple occasions came close to starving to death or dying of thirst. Here's a larger picture though www.dosomething.org/us/facts/11-facts-about-hunger-us 40 million Americans suffer with food insecurity. That doesn't count the 20,000,000 whom die yearly on a global scale do to a lake of food water and medicine all while an abundance of this exists. People say that socialists are unrealistic when it's capitalists who are unrealistic. I would love to live in a world where no one has to share wealth where I could potentially be a billionaire and never pay a fine in taxes American dream and all that. 20,000,000 dead bodies tell me otherwise. It tells me that our priorities as a society should be to handle these avoidable deaths. It's become clear over the history of Adam Smith style capitalism though that this isn't going to happen in a capitalist system. We've tried countless times to fix the system so it can match the promises of Adam Smith but that isn't happening because, as more people are realizing the system itself is broken

[@reddishcat1]

@Blue .Barrymore Are you sure I don't care? Are you sure destiny doesn't care?

[@erling3784]

Destiny got shut down by a Vietcong Rabbit in this debate

[@robert9561]

@@NeoIsrafil She's so annoying lmao what world do you live in

[@filthy_rodent]

@@NeoIsrafil Whatever floats your boat dude.

[@OATMEALDOOM]

@@NeoIsrafil shes ugly and annoying ur on crack g

[@2cleverbyhalf]

@@OATMEALDOOM She's cuter than all of the dudes on this thread put together, which isn't a huge accomplishment considering how fugly ya all are

[@manuelantuna2749]

@@2cleverbyhalf Maybe until now I'm the cutest thing in the world.

[@rschloch]

19:30 about where I realized that this anarchist is working with half-baked ideas. I’m not against his ‚ideals‘ of decentralized authority and self-governance, but the concept he has presented up until now lacks a clear means for maintaining itself. Sounds like chaos. That and most institutions are typically self-organizing. The end-game is almost always some sort of nation-state out of necessity/complexity. People are social creatures and the tendency of cities is evidence of that. The more people you habe living in complexity and shared habitats, the more structure that is needed; especially in providing some form of justice. People on the far left are way too caught up in their ideals to realize that the energy they spend there could be into improving the existing infrastructure. Best case scenario is that federal governments have as little actual power as possible and the Primary power lies at state, county m, city and community levels.

[@STRONTIumMuffin]

Destiny lacked understanding in this debate under the assumption everyone else didn't understand. No meme I think that's what wen wrong here, trying to win over trying to understand Liberalisation of trade has helped the richest in each country rather than the actual population of the planet.

[@firstplacegaming4146]

DesTINY defends liberalization of trade because it makes the economy numbers get bigger and when the economy numbers get bigger the more better it is for everybody, even though all the wealth goes to the share holders and higher ups in companies it will actually trickle down to the workers when the rich spend their money.

[@mario167100]

@@firstplacegaming4146 Are you guys serious? Are you telling me that liberalization of trade doesn't help consumers aswell? Are we going back to the alt-right days where globalization isn't good?

[@wanderingwanderer1016]

Yet Vietnam's economy seems to be pretty strong after trade liberalization.

[@firstplacegaming4146]

The Plains Jam lol not liking free trade cuz it leads to countries with more capital exploit countries with less to force them into deals that give them too little a share of the labor value they produce and giving far too much of the labor they produce to the overseas owners is the same as not liking globalization cuz brown people is the same XD you got me.

[@STRONTIumMuffin]

@@wanderingwanderer1016 for the rich maybe

[@BoxFullofBats]

Destinys face is so greasy that the US might invade it and he'll be confused whether military strength is synonymous with a good economy or not

[@MaximC]

I think by he means "efficient" as in "it's efficient in concentrating money/resources/power in hands of fewer and fewer individuals" Can't argue with that. ☺️

[@BoxFullofBats]

@@MaximC I didn't ask

[@MaximC]

@@BoxFullofBats I meant to comment under a different comment.

[@MaximC]

@@BoxFullofBats In any case, chill out. 😄

[@ching432123]

"If you talk to disabled people like i do every day" LUL

[@cameronmarler6223]

I think he's talking about us

[@cottonball5499]

Ever heard of agent orange?

[@tomtomtom6970]

He probably meant his gf

[@cinereus4670]

@@tomtomtom6970 are you really making that joke

[@knes167]

@@tomtomtom6970 His *comrade

[@enjoi0555]

Destiny un-ironically lost this debate. I can’t believe he kept reverting back to “whataboutism” with Vietnam...

[@soarel325]

Maybe Emerican shouldn't have constantly defended Vietnam them.

[@kristoffer3000]

@@soarel325 He didn't? He was very vocal about Vietnam having problems. Correcting someone saying things that are blatant lies is not defending it. Like I could correct someone saying Trump has green skin without defending Trump.

[@TheKvltPantShater]

Like you tankies do whenever we criticise USSR?

[@philipdowdell3429]

this title aged well

[@TheMrSSS]

Yes true.

[@leftybesty7108]

Destiny literally makes the argument that "might makes right" in response to Luna's comment at 45:51. As much as Destiny dislikes the left using moral arguments, if you don't start with the basic premise that might does not make right, there is no point in talking about anything anyway.

[@johngamer-bp3pc]

dude did you just copy/paste your comment? do we really have to do this again?

[@leftybesty7108]

@@johngamer-bp3pc lol well yeah the identical video is in 3 places, and so is my comment. And it's not the only one. Why shouldn't it be here too? You'll notice I updated the timestamp ;)

[@johngamer-bp3pc]

@@leftybesty7108 because here people wont buy your bullshit

[@leftybesty7108]

@@johngamer-bp3pc Lol I'm not sure what comment section you're looking at, must be a different one. But look, I'm not trying to have any animosity towards you, but you literally made an analogy that is the exact opposite of the way the US has acted towards Vietnam historically, and that was the point where I thought it wasn't worth my time anymore. If you want to acknowledge your analogy was bad, we can keep discussing things. If not, then us talking probably isn't productive, in which case I legitimately hope you have a nice day :)

[@imgayasheck595]

@@johngamer-bp3pc is this your little bubble of liberalism? Where you don't have to think about it and saddy destiny just makes you feel good?

[@thefineboy3954]

Destiny made some seriously terrible points here

[@thefineboy3954]

So did EJ. Honestly this was kind of a shitshow

[@elyjah6380]

Luna also , everyone came across as an idiot tbh

[@whitetuxmafiaandfilms5042]

Elyjah Bounds-Hutton I mean considering that Destiny was justifying invasion, colonization, and dehumanizing of her country she deserves to be upset and flustered

[@elyjah6380]

@@whitetuxmafiaandfilms5042 doesn't mean she made a compelling argument though, they all just took a turn doing what-a-boutisms

[@Grock620]

Luna mentioned that Vietnam hasn't had an ally in the world since the USSR fell in 1991 but the U.S. has donated over 200 million in aid since 1999.

[@mattakudesu]

Fact of the matter is, we have more than enough resources to take care of everyone's basic needs of food, shelter, hygiene, etc. What we don't have is the maturity as a species needed to properly allocate these resources. Certain aspects of human psychology such as greed, lust, ego, tribalism, fear and willful ignorance have much too great of an effect on the way we organize ourselves. Until we decide and understand collectively that the wellbeing of everyone around us benefits our own wellbeing, we will forever be a grossly hierarchal species where those without resources will always be unfairly at the whim who are with resources

[@WayoftheDave]

Why should we be forced to provide for people who can't or won't provide for themselves. Let the weak perish.

[@trillmixin6999]

@@WayoftheDave why should we deny members of our own species the resources to live when we can keep everyone fed? its always gonna boil down to morals

[@laifu6317]

@@WayoftheDave You say that like you wouldn't starve if you were dropped in the middle of a forest

[@mrbadguysan]

@@WayoftheDave you're being forced to provide for people who don't work right now; The Walton Family.

[@About3pandas]

I mean you're not wrong, but ignoring all those things and trying to completely reorganize a system with the same people that all those problems are ingrained seems like a terrible idea. You would need multiple generations of teaching and conditioning in order to start to bring everyone to your understanding by incremental change or kill everyone who doesn't understand, believe, and live those ideals when the revolution happens.

[@bagandtag4391]

I love how the only way to fight for your rights as a minority in his ideal society is to overthrow it OMEGALUL

[@dom2752]

Strawmanning him OMEGALUL

[@joncolumbino744]

Dom “What if a minority of black people were being discriminated against in your ideal society?” “overthrow it” If you think the OP is strawmanning in any way ur probably r word

[@nikkeipvck8529]

lmaoo

[@lol-xs9wz]

I love how the anarchist basically makes the capitalist argument: "If you don't like it leave".

[@ItsDooby]

no he says get outside help and if that doesnt work then fight against your oppression

[@paulcar2356]

@It's Dooby! You would need the majority of the population working for the greater good instead of their own interests.

[@lol-xs9wz]

@@ItsDooby yes that brings me to another problem: why should i risk my life fighting against opression in an "anarchist society"? what he almost does is basically victim blaming opressed groups if they're not starting a revolution. it's almost like some sort of state is necessary which he also admits but i don't understand why he even calls himself an anarchist. "muh justified hierarchy" whatever that is.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

@@ItsDooby Ssssshhhhh. Logic doesn't work around these parts.

[@1000aaronaaronaaron]

@@paulcar2356 well yes. But why would they work towards their own interests? Wtf does that mean besides working for the greater good? You seem to still be thinking in a capitalist way where everyone's put against each other and NEED to do things in a way they think will put them on top. Thats the way the system teaches you to think. But if the system is about being a people collectively working together then why would you hurtothers for your own self interests and what would that even mean if, for instance, there's no such thing as money or somthing like that?

[@lvh5981]

Holy shit when Luna jumped in on EJ looked like the last few shreds of his credibility just melted down, he wasn't doing amazing but at least he didn't look insane yet. Luna just provides no evidence and gets angry about things my god.

[@BaroqueEnjoyer]

De-radicalize people from far right extremist ideology right into far left extremist ideology. K...

[@SamI-bs5mm]

I mean he is not making them tankies most of Destiny's fans if radicalized become ancoms and hate tankies.

[@pbh2616]

Having found this gem on the internet and watching in it's entirety in 2021... This Vietnam stuff they are defending... Did not fucking age well at all, lol.

[@Winasaurus]

It never aged well at any point. The only people who think Vietnam is going well are western internet commies who think anything that isn't the US is better (seen some unironically defending China and pretending uygher muslim genocide isn't real), or people who live in Vietnam who spend all day huffing copium than be honest. There's a reason a shocking number of people abandon Vietnam as soon as they have enough money to do so, and a lot of them go to the US. Of course white people who immigrate there are hard coping and don't want to admit they fucked up so bad they need to move back.

[@Winasaurus]

@@ChristopherGray00 North Vitenam/Viet Cong losses: 849,018 (Their estimate) US losses: 58,281 If you think that's "America's military getting slaughtered", then I suggest a basic math class. Trying to call that a slaughter on the american side is the very definition of huffing copium. "No guys, they got totally wrecked, we only lost 14x the troops, that's nothing" Not sure why you'd send spit my grandfathers way. Seems massively irrelevant to the conversation. Unless you're assuming I'm american and that my grandfather was in the vietnam war. Because if that's the case, it's nice to meet you, Mike Powell, because only you could long jump that far to conclusions.

[@TrentonF505]

@@Winasaurus not sure if you know this, but the Vietnam War was a civil war hence those numbers

[@teargass1849]

@@TrentonF505 it was a war between two states, not a civil war, and those loss are NVM, not counting southern veitnam, so no.

[@TrentonF505]

@@teargass1849 You’re misunderstanding me. I’m saying those NVM number are also from conflict with the South Vietnamese. The war was 20 years long and the US was only heavily involved for several of those years.

[@antoniop.newton9463]

Theese stupid ironic comments are killing any type of conversation that could emerge from the debates

[@MaximC]

It's a world better than reactionaries simply calling names and trying to offend and belittle the opponents.

[@soarel325]

destiny got ironically commented in this debate

[@caidenbond1988]

Ikr its so monolithic and dogmatic it hurts

[@stuuuuuuuu]

1:45:10 "making sure that the minimum living standards are high... like if you lived in a first world country today you should probably have healthcare, a place to live, food to eat, education" -Destiny the US does not guarantee a single one of these as rights. Vietnam guarantees all 4 (in a more cost effective way) Its pretty hard to implement social change in a capitalist system, considering the influence of money always favors the status quo. That is why Emerican talks about anti-capitalist education. Unfortunately anticapitalism has been melted/propogandized out of destiny's brain. We're in an economy of incredible surplus. The amount of goods and services available vastly outweighs the capital necessary to use those services. So the wages paid to produce said goods and services are constantly declining. If there is no wealth redistribution to workers (via worker co-ops and policy) real wages will decline until the end of existence, as production will always outweigh consumption. Like it or not, structural change is the only answer

[@stuuuuuuuu]

​@Guiuu Shurt i'm not an expert on vietnam but they have roughly 1/3rd the population of the US, 1/100th the GDP of the US, yet they have significantly less people below the national poverty line. I wonder how that happens?

[@huyo5211]

Guiuu Shurt That was four years ago, you should probably visit Nam again before you say sth dumb like that

[@jjay75]

Vietnam has outrageously high poverty levels by western standards

[@huyo5211]

Jamie Hall Really, because the last time I checked Vietnam has less people living under the poverty line ( about 7,6 mil of 91 mil population) than the UK ( 13,44 mil out of a 66mil population) despite the UK is a developed country and has a smaller population than Vietnam

[@jjay75]

@@huyo5211 It's called relative poverty, and it does nothing to measure actual material wealth

[@forcefield6973]

Destiny's prices got controlled in this debate

[@3112-x9r]

The minimum wage is a form of price control which Destiny apparently supports. He is a bit of a walking contradiction. No surprise there.

[@alexanderdrake3712]

Everytime he's asked a question about how this would actually work, he pivots to saying capitalism is bad

[@Rahab111222]

All Communists do that. "How does this work under communism" is always met with "Capitalism bad."

[@SilenzioDiEsistenza]

Capitalism sucks irrespective of communism. It allready sucked when part of feudalism, it sucked more when part of colonialism and slavery, amd it still sucks now, when all that has turned into more covert forms of exploitation. You may like it, but for what reasons? Usually they are: because i benefit from it.

[@Dr_Clevins]

This is a fun debate to watch because 3 years ago I sounded exactly like Non-Compete. I’m not a communist anymore (nor a capitalist either), but watching this just makes me cringe for my old self lol

[@TheKvltPantShater]

I would say I'm a capitalist because Social Democracy and Mixed economy system is also a form of Capitalist system. I'm not ashamed of saying that Capitalism is so far the best economic system even though it might have many flaws which can be fixed by regulations Also can I say this Luna is annoying af.

[@SSJVNN]

"A council of community councils" starting to sound dangerously close to a state to me Edit: lmfaooo wait he's in favour of a state wow I'm so confused

[@uilsoum875]

@Chalk O'holic Emerican is an anarchist. They dont support Vietnam totally, just some parts.

[@uilsoum875]

@Chalk O'holic i'm not here to argue dude i just explained their point of view. i know nothing about vietnam

[@euso2008]

@Chalk O'holic You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Vietnam is run by democratic centralism, not different from other socialist states. And no, killing aggressors in a war is not "murder". They did make concessions to the IMF because they didn't want to have their economy compromised by isolation, but attacking a state for not being your "real socialism" utopia is stupid.

[@euso2008]

@Chalk O'holic Not sure where you got that info, but maybe look further into it, because you got it wrong. The Viet Cong were themselves the farmers before serving. They would never win without massive support from the people. The Viet Cong were dissolved after the war. Not surprising western propaganda would lie about Vietnam though, some americans even think the US didn't lose.

[@euso2008]

​@Chalk O'holic Massacres happened by both sides. It's unfortunate, but it's war. But if you say the Viet Cong are terrorists, you have to admit the US and South Korean government are a much bigger terrorist state.

[@allancastellon9248]

Unironically justifying mass murder and imperialism is a new low for destiny

[@datajake7869]

@@allancastellon9248 Would like to see you try you limp wrist commie!

[@allancastellon9248]

@@datajake7869 K

[@CorporateShill66]

@@CaBdosdos imagine falling for this

[@lordhigglebottum8377]

@@CaBdosdos Exactly, the hierarchy of the USSR's vanguard was justified and objectively good for having asserted its power and murdering Trotskyites and anarchists.

[@VoIcanoman]

I don't know that the people in this conversation are...talking about the same thing when they talk about "success" of a capitalist country. I would consider the United States a failure of a capitalist country in most respects. Obviously it is succeeding by the terms of *capitalism* but it is failing in many measures of human well-being. People go into debt to save their lives with chemotherapy treatments. To get a chance at upward economic mobility, not only do you have to work your ass off to be able to get into a top-notch college, but you have to sink 200 grand of not your money into paying for it, a debt which you will NEVER pay off (or at the very least, you'll be quite old, and will have paid almost twice the value of the loan, adjusted for inflation, by the time you're clear of it). People are unhealthy, and so many people just WON'T go to the doctor unless they know they're LITERALLY dying, due to the insurance co-pays (or deductibles), making the far preferable _preventative_ medicine, which would improve peoples' quality of life, AND reduce the overall cost of their medical care, rarely utilized. In the wealthiest country in the world (arguably), people are still malnourished. So yeah, poverty in the USA isn't as bad as in Vietnam, or Africa or whatever. But when you have THAT MUCH WEALTH, and your country ISN'T taking care of its most vulnerable citizens...when the wealth is, instead, concentrated within a few hundred families who could pay 90% of their annual income in tax without more than a 10% reduction in their lifestyle (i.e. the majority of their earnings just sit there in the bank, unused, collecting interest), I'd say that while capitalism is succeeding, your society is failing. And the worst part is, that those few hundred families' interests are always at the top of the agenda in government, since they donate heavily to both major political parties (unlimited donations to a PAC/SuperPAC being recently legalized in _Citizens United_ because apparently cash is speech now). So there is no way for the interests, indeed, the WISHES of the majority to ever be taken into consideration, since the only choices people have is between a LUDICROUSLY conservative party, and a merely moderately conservative one. So much of the political spectrum is off the table, voices unheard because it is in the two existing parties' interests to make sure that they are the only game in town. Sure, the political median of each party swings around, left and right, libertarian to authoritarian...but any voices that exist out of the party's mainstream are ridiculed, silenced, and propaganda campaigns are started to make sure that the impact new ideas can have is basically non-existent (look at how the Democratic mainstream are treating AOC). Both parties have every reason to keep things as close to the status quo as possible, because the status quo is benefitting THEM. How is this different than the corrupt USSR government having every reason to not solve its major issues, because the status quo benefitted them? The only difference is that the USA *claims* to be meritocratic and democratic, a place where mere hard work can give you a decent quality of life. The people of the USSR were under no such illusion. I'm not saying a majority of the American people want socialism. When you call it socialism at least. But when you describe what that would mean...universal health care, college costs being regulated so that they're affordable, increasing federal funding in areas that benefit the public (as in scientific research, pharmaceutical and medical research, etc... all owned by the public), better pay for (and increasing the numbers of) both teachers and social workers, creating and strengthening unions, etc., there is majority support for all of that (as indeed, there is majority support on social issues not related to socialism, like abortions being legal most of the time, and sensible gun control being implemented). We call the USA a democracy, but when a majority of people support positions that are legislatively impossible to achieve...you know that there are powerful voices successfully opposing the majority, i.e. it's pretty undemocratic. I also agree...anarcho-communism is pretty idealistic, and maybe even naive. I am NOT an anarcho-communist. Honestly, I don't see how such a system could ever function in America today (though it might work in other Western nations). But that's not to say I don't see the issues highlighted by NonCompete. When Chile voted in a socialist in an election that was free and fair, America deposed him and backed Pinochet, leading to the torture and execution of thousands of people. Is it Chile's fault that their system wasn't STRONG enough to withstand outside influence (because that's what it kind of sounded like Destiny was saying here)? Or what about the United Fruit Company essentially operating Honduras as their own private banana plantation, with the full backing of the US government (which necessitated preventing Honduras from ever becoming a democratic, self-governing place). And that's not even mentioning Guatemala. Or Iran. (And countless other places) Imperialism was not invented by capitalists, but it was perfected by them. The reason we have no functioning communist states may very well be that communism can never work in practise. But we'd never know if this was true or not, because every time communism was attempted (and was not in the process of self-destructing), the US intervened. I think it's actually high time for a country to go full communist, with constitutional protections for basic freedoms, and methods of keeping power from getting concentrated. Because while it may actually have issues...the question really is, are the issues bigger than with capitalism...and are they as INTRACTABLE? We don't really have an answer to this question, and I really wish we did. Because I am equally not wedded to capitalism...I think it can be improved and kept more equitable by sufficient regulation, and maybe that's the best way to do things. But we really don't know.

[@MaximC]

"Capitalist success" basically means "that resources/power is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands, and/or economic inequality is bigger" - so, by those standards saying America is a successful capitalist country is a correct thing to say. Funnily enough... Is like saying "we are economically successful", in an "economic" system where economy means consuming as much as possible, not caring about ecological sustainability, and "climate change hurts the economy" 😄

[@VoIcanoman]

@@MaximC Exactly. It's basically a tautology, and amounts to saying "economic success is good, capitalism brings economic success, therefore capitalism is good," ignoring all of the things that don't fit into that equation. If what America is today is called "successful" I think that word has been redefined to mean "a condition where the powerful and rich are getting more powerful and rich."

[@MaximC]

@@VoIcanoman ... *and* the environment is trashed, people are increasingly obese, mentally and physically ill, and so forth...

[@VoIcanoman]

@@MaximC Yup. System's working perfectly!

[@MaximC]

@@VoIcanoman As George Carlin would say- all is fine and dandy!!😆

[@BBLDRIZZY9000]

Don’t listen to American propaganda But here is my Vietnam propaganda 😂

[@erichathaway4783]

What she was saying reminded me about how conservatives talk about the deep state. What do you do if you're so wrong that everyone disagrees with you? Make up a conspiracy theory about the biased media.

[@colinschmidt3475]

Man I desperately wanted to hear a good argument against capitalism and I could have made every one better than these fools did. Imagine saying, “We haven’t had an anarchist society in peacetime,” and thinking that didn’t reflect as an argument on itself. Really...I’m amenable to alternative idealized economic structures but that’s so intellectually lazy it doesn’t even bother to make a point.

[@mikoi7472]

Problem is that arguing against capitalism from an anarchist perspective is just bound to fail at the starting line as there is no true critique it can give that the system itself cannot address or that anarchist systems would not do considerably worse in.

[@roblangada4516]

@@mikoi7472 The main problem is anarchy is just an inherently self defeating concept. See the part of the debate where Destiny is asking him an anarchist system stops the scenario with a 70% white company only electing white managers, and he starts talking about councils of councils and syndicates and any other term he can think of to avoid saying "a state". All dispute arbitration when explained by an anarchist always boils down to something that resembles a de facto state (council of councils), or just violence.

[@daan260]

@@mikoi7472 also, being an anarchist who is against capitalism is a complete contradiction. The result of true anarchy is out of control capitalism. Anarchy is basically the left wing version of libertarianism, although there are definitely differences as well. They want no government and no rules, but the result is that natural hierarchies spiral out of control, with complete chaos as a result. This guy thinks we made up hierarchies to oppress people, but the truth is that hierarchies are present in everything throughout nature. We keep it under control with social policies, so we can feed the poor and keep the peace.

[@mikoi7472]

@@daan260 "also, being an anarchist who is against capitalism is a complete contradiction. The result of true anarchy is out of control capitalism. " You don't even understand what capitalism is if you're saying that. "This guy thinks we made up hierarchies to oppress people, but the truth is that hierarchies are present in everything throughout nature" No, it's not. "Anarchy is basically the left wing version of libertarianism, although there are definitely differences as well. They want no government and no rules" That's not what Anarchy is. You're extremely uninformed and really shouldn't talk on any political or philosophical issue with takes like this.

[@daan260]

@@mikoi7472 capitalism: "an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit." this means free market economy, so no restrictions on profit basically. If there are no rules and ragulations, you'll get a free market economy. anarchy: "a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems" so lawlessness and no regulation on the free market basically. no rules or regulations = free market economy prove me wrong...

[@josephagnetti8921]

I'm loving the anarcho-communists coming out of the wood work.

[@b9brett]

hi

[@b9brett]

@Sean Davis Is this a weird gay joke? Jesus @Destiny can you do something about these idiots?

[@DaKoopaKing]

@@b9brett It's a joke that far leftoids are retards whose only accomplishments include standing out for being weird (dyed hair and ugly makeup) and standing out by being stupid (see: this debate).

[@DaKoopaKing]

@Alex M I'm not a fan of Destiny. Also you say that like the far left has accomplished anything other than inventing words like brocialism to further alienate people from their joke of a political stance.

[@mr.thongsong8473]

@Alex M TheKoopaKing just came in your mothers eye, aren't you going to do something about this?

[@PotatoGawds]

Destiny forgot he was defending Capitalism not Imperialism in this debate.

[@blaxican1612]

Pretty much the same thing

[@August-p9g]

Lmao proof the two can't be separated

[@topdamagewizard]

A "collection of community counsels" sounds exactly like a State

[@mrbadguysan]

States aren't voluntary.

[@cydneywilliams6737]

No it doesn't. Almost every government representative is wealthier than the average person. We are not being ruled by our peers. And these people have completely different motivations and concerns because they have money and because they work for wealthy donors. A council my actually reflect the diversity of the community and respond more ably to local problems and conditions.

[@topdamagewizard]

@@cydneywilliams6737 fair enough. Good point. But it's still a state. Your idea is ideal though

[@elperry7733]

@@topdamagewizard It's literally not. Do you know what the word means?

[@topdamagewizard]

@@elperry7733how would you describe your city council then?

[@louiscyfear878]

@50:56 *_🎼You...You got what I neee-eed.🎶 But you say I'm just a comrade, 🎹But you say I'm just comrade🎹_* 🤣 *_OH BABY YOU..._*

[@imgayasheck595]

Here are some of slippery steve's disingenuous habits: -prefix all his conclusions and biases with "prooobably" so he can go back on everything. -never justifies private property, and refuses to engage with criticism of it just saying exaggeratedly "YoU mEAn SteAl thEIr pRopErty" which is just begging the question, handwaves away primitive accumulation -make snide historically incorrect remarks repeating propaganda -says at the beginning of the conversation that he understands communism is moneyless yet he concern trolls this whole debate about wages and work -acts like all of the positive things we can point to in our society are BECAUSE of capitalists and not IN SPITE of them. -doesn't even know that thehistory of capitalism is the history of class struggle. -He has absolutely no idea how social change happens and has happened -Thinks constantly bringing up Vietnam is relevant to the discussion or makes up with Destiny's huge blunder saying there are no trade unions. -he thinks prisoners that have been imprisoned for example for rejecting private property or the authority of the state or its lackeys are not political prisoners, which happen to be by far most prisoners and also most laws.... 😂 -believes everything under capitalism is "natural," "neutral," "amoral", etc. -acts like capitalist revolutions weren't bloody and messy, he just thinks it just thinks it magically appeared and the feudalists gave them all power -pretends to not care about rhetoric but keeps harping on irrelevant things like prisoners in Vietnam -pretends to not care about rhetoric when his main goal is farming twitch chat because he is an actor -says he doesn't care about freedom yet he kept bringing up those prisoners of a capitalist state up a whole lot 🤔 -doesn't know black panthers are still in prison -doesn't know about IRONFIST -doesn't know about the supreme Court trials persecuting anarchists -doesn't know that the state uses propped up charges -doesn't know that guantanamo bay exists -doesn't know about cia black sites -doesn't know that prison is a political tool, he thinks its 'neutral' and that there is a special category for political prisoners -believes everything the US tells him like the bootlicker he is -says this is idealised but says capitalism will solve our problems, and this guy has the gall to throw around labels like materialist, egoist, etc. That he really has no idea what they actually mean -claims to know communism is classless and moneyless but then concern trolls about factories and racism -hasn't read a book in a decade and only consults Koch funded institutes and Wikipedia and thinks he understands political economy. -He probably doesn't even know what political economy is because economics is just neutral to him 😂 something that "the experts" have "figured out".

[@ufodeath]

You totally nailed it! Awesome Job pointing out his disingenuous and downright dishonest tactics. He also revealed himself to be a morally abhorrent person in this conversation.

[@imgayasheck595]

@Stale Bagelz the possums made me do it 🐹

[@soarel325]

>never justifies private property, and refuses to engage with criticism of it just saying exaggeratedly "YoU mEAn SteAl thEIr pRopErty" which is just begging the question, handwaves away primitive accumulation “Primitive accumulation” is part of the marxist pseudoscience framework. It’s like “irreducible complexity” from creationists. >make snide historically incorrect remarks repeating propaganda Facts incovenient for communist terror regimes aren’t propaganda. >doesn't even know that thehistory of capitalism is the history of class struggle. The marxist pseudohistorical grand narrative is full of shit, history is more complex than hegelian stages >acts like capitalist revolutions weren't bloody and messy, he just thinks it just thinks it magically appeared and the feudalists gave them all power There were no “capitalist revolutions”, that is marxist pseudohistory. Fuck, even some socialists are realizing this: www.jacobinmag.com/2014/12/capitalisms-gravediggers/ >doesn't know about the supreme Court trials persecuting anarchists If you try and violently overthrow a non-tyrannical government, you should be imprisoned. >He probably doesn't even know what political economy is because economics is just neutral to him 😂 something that "the experts" have "figured out". Economics is a science, and Marxism is a form of pseudoscience. Economic creationism.

[@soarel325]

"Capitalism", as you define it, has always existed. It is a core part of every human society. Your attempts at abolishing it are an aberration. Learn about capitalist Rome: pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3378/a942f7f11d586ddffc5785c2c78f7ee71ac5.pdf Also -- "If any one give over a field to a gardener, for him to plant it as a garden, if he work at it, and care for it for four years, in the fifth year the owner and the gardener shall divide it, the owner taking his part in charge." "If any one hire a field laborer, he shall pay him eight gur of corn per year." "If any one hire a day laborer, he shall pay him from the New Year until the fifth month (April to August, when days are long and the work hard) six gerahs in money per day; from the sixth month to the end of the year he shall give him five gerahs per day." all from the Code of Hammurabi, 1750 BC: mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/Assyria/Hammurabi.html

[@lubu2960]

The Vietnamese girl is so obnoxious and barely understandable

[@michaelmappin1830]

Thank you for sharing your subjective opinion. 😀

[@mikel27180]

@@michaelmappin1830 *objective

[@leleltea8921]

true. but careful, you're racist if you don't understand every word that comes out of her mouth :P

[@ShadowDragon1848]

I mean the real problem is that it is hard to argue with ideas.

[@globaldigitaldirectsubsidi4493]

"The economic anarchy of capitalism is the root of all evil." - Albert Einstein

[@jmattia24]

Luckily, we only follow his advice on subjects he was knowledgable about. Genius does not translate across all fields.

[@globaldigitaldirectsubsidi4493]

@@jmattia24 economics is a pseudoscience, imperialist nature destroyer!

[@jmattia24]

@@Catloves997 you do know there are tens of thousands more capitalist economist than socialist ones? An appeal to authority is not what you should be doing considering the overwhelming majority of economist believe in capitlism, free markets, and free trade.

[@jayt7178]

jmattia24 I mean, it’s not like there’s much dissent in the ranks of Econ. majors. Before they go to school, they grow up within the system (most in upper middle class families without financial struggle), they live and are indoctrinated by the system which they were born to (as all peoples are, consider North Korea, or China), the overwhelming message of capitalist superiority they’ve been spoon fed since grade school has given them an idea about how they think economics works, and then while at school, they’re taught a bunch of shit that reinforces that narrative. I’m not even saying the narrative is wrong, but it’s no wonder there’s not much dissent within the ranks of economists. The ones that do (take Richard Wolff) are them laughed at by econ. Majors cheerleading for their “team,” when in actuality he’s not even talking about a removal of markets. He’s just saying that people should run companies together, democratically. That doesn’t mean no bosses. That doesn’t mean everyone’s a manager. It just means that everyone holds a stake in the company, and that the company is run as democratically as possible. That’s not that crazy of an idea, but so many Econ majors I’ve talked to acted like he’s a Leninist. That’s how ignorant of socialism they are.

[@jmattia24]

@@Catloves997 You're the one who made an appeal to authority and I showed how stupid that was for your arguement. You counter by showing appeal to authority means nothing, good, we agree. Next, let's cut the hypothetical and talk real world. For each successful economy that was dictated by marixst/communism rule of thought, I will name an equally successful capitalist country. You start, don't worry, you can take your time.

[@eternallinks3351]

1:24 That smile was so forced lmao.

[@avillianchillinskrillian]

How did government become a trusty third party to defend blacks at the workplace? What were those mechanisms: democracy.

[@imgayasheck595]

He doesn't care lol, he's just concern trolling. Destiny thinks it's morally neutral to enslave all of mexico

[@datajake7869]

@@imgayasheck595 when did he say anything like that?

[@55Noco]

I'm a pacifist up until I'm not lol only to the people I disagree with politically. This guy is has an authoritarian streak in him

[@lughtube5596]

Yeah, Destiny is pretty authoritarian. Oh? You meant the non compete? The guy literally against authority? He didn’t say he was a pacifist, he just said he would try to avoid it. Like, y’know most sane people?

[@55Noco]

@@lughtube5596 huh? Sure I don't recall what this was

[@lughtube5596]

@@55Noco if I’m not mistaken, you were saying that noncompete’s authoritarian even though he’s a anarcho-communist and also stated that he’s inconsistent on his stance of pacifism but rereading your comment I could have misunderstood you

[@lughtube5596]

@Trade Bum Simmons imagine being so sad you try to reignite an argument from 8 months ago

[@lughtube5596]

@Trade Bum Simmons I’ve already made it clear that I don’t want to have this conversation with you. There are better things we could be doing with our time. This conversation won’t be productive for anyone

[@anjalialaniz]

God damn.....Destiny = constant facial expression of scorn as if to say "When will I be done with this insufferable person?"

[@jackwatson6887]

Whatever points this guy could validly make in favour of anarchism immediately gets cut off when he loops back to the textbook soyboy routine. Also assuming communist/anarchist states wouldn’t have racial issues is hilarious to me, what is that based on? A dream?

[@therealchristian1]

I saw a quote about ethics that I think applies to you really well (in a good way). It's a bit long tho. Kohlberg (1984) proposed a model describing how people progress through six sequential stages of moral development as they grow from a child to an adult. With each successive stage, the person develops a broader understanding of the principles of justice, social responsibility, and human rights. At the lowest level of moral development, the primary motivation is self-interest and the satisfaction of personal needs. At a middle level of moral development, the primary motivation is to satisfy role expectations and social norms determined by groups, organizations, and society. At the highest level of moral development, the primary motivation is to fulfill internalized values and moral principles. A person at this level may deviate from norms and risk social rejection, economic loss, and physical punishment in order to achieve an important ethical objective.

[@tcritt]

Destiny got destroyed by a communist furry in this debate.

[@jaylieg1921]

Dude is non compete a furry? Hell yea

[@tcritt]

@@jaylieg1921 Did you not see his friend in the video?

[@kevindelariva7999]

1:23:40 “a council of councils” 😂

[@web]

Kevin De La Riva you need to dismantle hierarchy by any means necessary... oh wait...

[@b9brett]

Do you boys know how trade organizations work today? :)

[@LordOdio]

@@b9brett I'm coming to find that most nonleftists has no idea how economics works at all

[@b9brett]

@@LordOdio It's depressing because if they just learned "basic economics" they'd see all the problems with it. :/ I guess that makes us class reductionists who *checks notes* hate black people somehow? Imagine erasing all those black and brown socialists throughout history. #Ally

[@emerald6597]

@@web unjust hierarchy... democratically organized councils arent oppressive lmao

[@trollingisasport]

There are almost no points or arguments actually being made here. A battle of tautology.

[@nilktots6380]

Seems kind of cruel to try and troll a bit to the girl in a country that was racked with years of warfare and invasion, I get arguing back but that seemed more like an imperialistic snide gesture

[@Gutterling]

Some facist takes by Destiny. I would have like to hear more discussion about how capitalism incentivizes racism in response to the theoretical factory.

[@micromints1735]

"Opposes commies so is fascist" God, since you people want to beat them up you're going to bash everyone.

[@LordOdio]

@@micromints1735 he made a might makes right argument not everyone that's agasint communism is a fascist but fascists are AGGRESSIVELY anti communist

[@alexander_sinclair]

So, when people debate anarchism vs socialism vs capitalism, I always end up realizing that they don't exist. You can have flatter organizations in capitalism, socialism, or anarchism. You can have accountability in capitalism, socialism, and anarchism. In the end, what specific quality defines capitalism that socialism and anarchism don't share? Is having a social hierarchy to varying degrees capitalist? Not really. What is capitalism then? Free markets? You can have free markets in socialism and anarchism. A market is just a group of people that want something. A free market just means people can freely trade without a government. Capitalism, socialism, and anarchism all agree on free markets. Is capitalism private ownership by one individual? Not necessarily. Something can be owned by a group. In reality, it seems like socialism, capitalism, and anarchism don't exist or are almost identical in function. When people argue they are arguing more about free market vs state control of money, but, again, state enforced communism or socialism was not the intent of Marx. Maybe it's time to move past the conversation of socialism, anarchism, and capitalism and focus on specific issues and how we can make those specific issues less of an issue. Saying America is capitalist these days is so pointless because the concepts of socialism, capitalism, and anarchism are so negligible. We can refer to how they've "been" enacted in the past, but if some group did something under a certain name doesn't mean they define the theory.

[@cinereus4670]

here's someone that doesn't know what he's talking about

[@DDogg43777]

I think a tip for NonCompete on a future conversation, would be to leave his friend out of it. I think as soon as she was involved it felt like a "ganging up" on Destiny, and especially with the giggles at Destiny's comments, you could tell he started to get thrown off the conversation.

[@purple-flowers]

Luna wasn't a part of the conversation until destiny directly attacked her home country

[@Winasaurus]

Yeah he totally checked out when it became a shouting match from her and him just going "capitalism bad, communism and vietnam good, food prices good. He was just so bored of it. Seems like he figured there's nothing he can say because the guy is clearly huffing copium as to how good Vietnam is. Constantly defending it as a really good country and then when Destiny points out how bad it is he goes "Oh but it's not anarchic so it's not relevant". Why are you defending it from his anti-anarchic points then?

[@dreamspique844]

@@purple-flowers if that counts as self defense then destiny attacked her country before she was born.

[@dusk3485]

@@purple-flowerslight criticism = attacking someone home land?

[@purple-flowers]

@@dusk3485 i really don't care about this enough to rewatch the video, but from what i remember he was parroting some western propaganda and not legitimate critique. I have a lot of critiques about Vietnam. For example their treatment of different indigenous groups over the years, and a lot of their liberalization polices. I'm an anarchist so I don't even agree with the concept of a ML vanguard party, but I feel like Vietnam has done a lot of good despite that. For one they basically were the ones who stopped the Cambodian Genocide even though the rest of the world either abandoned the Cambodian people, or other socialist countries like china actively facilitating it. Also vietnam has done a lot recently to counter the hegemonic ambitions of current day china. There are goods and bads, but the western propaganda machine is blind to all of the nuance and relies on racist and imperialistic rhetoric instead.